racism towards white jazz musicians
Andrew Dahlke
gsm
: Would anyone care to offer their insight toward this subject
I don't think I can cry one more tear for the plight of the poor
downtrodden put-upon whites, whether musician or those crippled by
Affirmative Action.
--
///--- Gerry
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| There are two kinds of people in this world: those that divide |
| people into two groups of people, and those that don't. |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Lee M. Cohen
if neo-CrowJim might apply today?
* Lee M. Cohen * JazzNet <http://www.jazznet.com/~Lmcohen>
* Lmc...@JazzNet.com * JazzNow <http://www.jazznow.com/~jazzinfor>
* 310-985-5566 (v) * JazzAve <http://www.klon.org/~jazzave>
* 310-597-8453 (f)
Luke Kaven
>Andrew Dahlke (ad...@umich.edu) wrote:
>: Would anyone care to offer their insight toward this subject
>I don't think I can cry one more tear for the plight of the poor
>downtrodden put-upon whites, whether musician or those crippled by
>Affirmative Action.
I think that anyone who selectively ignores the suffering of the
members of any one group on the basis of their skin color is indeed
a racist himself. It is certainly possible that any group may make
spurious claims to suffering on the basis of race or gender. And
granted that one's patience may occasionally run out. But one
is not entitled to presume that all claims by any one given group are
to be considered spurious, or are no longer worthy of attention. In
fact, the mitigation of racism against any one group is contingent upon
the recognition of racist beliefs across all groups.
Sincerely, Luke Kaven
Lisa
>Andrew Dahlke (ad...@umich.edu) wrote:
>: Would anyone care to offer their insight toward this subject
>I don't think I can cry one more tear for the plight of the poor
>downtrodden put-upon whites, whether musician or those crippled by
>Affirmative Action.
>--
>///--- Gerry
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
An added note to Gerry's. There is no such thing as racism when it concerns
whites. Take a look at the power difference before you start screaming
racism. We may have to accept the fact that somethings segregated are not
really all that bad. Check out the back issue of Jazz Times. Big article on
this. Sorry about the grammar errors. Take care.
D
C
A
t
Ton Maas
bye...@ucsu.colorado.edu (Lisa) wrote:
> An added note to Gerry's. There is no such thing as racism when it concerns
>whites. Take a look at the power difference before you start screaming
>racism. We may have to accept the fact that somethings segregated are not
>really all that bad. Check out the back issue of Jazz Times. Big article on
>this. Sorry about the grammar errors. Take care.
>
I think we're dealing here with a confusion between racism (which is
something happening inside the head - before it gets expressed) and
oppression (as in all cases of colonialism, imperialism etc.). Only
oppression relies on power over "the other"; racism doesn't require
anything but ignorance.
Ton Maas, Amsterdam NL
Ashley Capps
>
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------
> An added note to Gerry's. There is no such thing as racism when it concerns
> whites. Take a look at the power difference before you start screaming
> racism. We may have to accept the fact that somethings segregated are not
> really all that bad. Check out the back issue of Jazz Times. Big article on
> this. Sorry about the grammar errors. Take care.
Wow, my general inclination is to stay out of these discussions on this
particular news group, but I can't let a statement like "There is no such
thing as racism when it concerns whites" go by without some sort of
comment. To imply that because one particular racial group holds the bulk
of power that there is no such thing as racism to individual members of
that group is illogical. But the bottom line is simply that it is a crime
that any member of any racial group would not be recognized for his
achievements in any endeavor because of the color of his skin.
Ashley
Thomas F Brown
>
>I don't think I can cry one more tear for the plight of the poor
>downtrodden put-upon whites, whether musician or those crippled by
>Affirmative Action.
Racism is debilitating for everyone involved.
>| There are two kinds of people in this world: those that divide |
>| people into two groups of people, and those that don't. |
You just did the first.
Thomas F Brown
> There is no such thing as racism when it concerns
>whites.
You might consider leaving your room and experiencing the world
every now and then.
Take a look at the power difference before you start screaming
>racism. We may have to accept the fact that somethings segregated are not
>really all that bad.
This sounds to me like part of a very distasteful argument,
one that I have heard made by Nazis, white supremacy groups,
and NOI spokesmen.
Randy Hudson
Randy Hudson r...@inmet.com
Ted Thompson
> Wow, my general inclination is to stay out of these discussions on this
> particular news group, but I can't let a statement like "There is no such
> thing as racism when it concerns whites" go by without some sort of
> comment. To imply that because one particular racial group holds the bulk
> of power that there is no such thing as racism to individual members of
> that group is illogical. But the bottom line is simply that it is a crime
> that any member of any racial group would not be recognized for his
> achievements in any endeavor because of the color of his skin.
During WW2, if a Jew made an anti-German remark, would that be considered
as racist?
Oppressed people can be bigoted but not racist.
Ted
R. Lynn Rardin
In a previous article, te...@halcyon.com (Ted Thompson) says:
>During WW2, if a Jew made an anti-German remark, would that be considered
>as racist?
>
>Oppressed people can be bigoted but not racist.
I guess it depends on your definition of racism and bigotry. The American
Heritage Dictionary defines them as follows:
racism n. 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human
character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race. racist adj. & n.
bigot n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or
politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
Seems like anyone, no matter what their heritage, could potentially be a
racist or bigot based on these defs.
--
-Lynn (rar...@auriga.rose.brandeis.edu)
Gary Milliken
>nor any of the follow-ups have actually discussed any alleged cases
>of "racism towards white jazz musicians".
Well, racism is obviously a very touchy and controversial subject,
so many posters may be reluctant to give examples, but the phenomenon
definitely has existed for many years -- it was given the name
"Crow Jim". Some whites who have called attention to it (like
Stan Kenton) have only come across as crotchety and whiney,
either dumb rednecks or poor-little-rich-kids. More thoughtful
treatments of the subject by journalists like Leonard Feather
have been dismissed or ignored (not helped by the wide-spread
dislike of Feather, for example).
The best discussion that I have seen is the long essay in the
book "Cats of Any Color" by Gene Lees (no doubt the essay was
first published in his 'Jazzletter'). Lees goes to great pains
to point out that one can be extremely sympathetic and supportive
of black artists, and still be willing to call attention to the
frequent and unjustified negativity aimed at white artists.
As often as he can, Lees quotes black musicians who have experienced
prejudice against the white musicians in their bands (Oscar Peterson,
Art Farmer, etc.) or who have bemoaned the reciprocal nature of
racism in America (Johnny Griffin). And Lees saves his worst fire
for Wynton Marsalis... Go find the book -- it's worth it.
GM
James Atkinson
Orleans one day a couple of years ago, and received a back-handed
compliment afterwards: "You play real good for a white boy".
The comment was probably intended as a compliment, and may simply
display the idiomatic style of speech from the region or race at
that time, but it demonstrates the overall belief that whites
are not expected to be proficient at jazz. Compare it to the
poor-taste jokes about blacks. Sure they might be jokes, but
they demonstrate a culture's underlying racism through their
existence, the jokes serving as an underhanded way to communicate
this racism, redirecting any offended reactions to the claim that
it was only intended as humour.
James.
RMiller73
numbers of recorded historical instances of mass racism from
european-white's onto other skin colored or ethnic backrounded people.
numbers of recorded historical instances of mass racism onto
european-white's from other skin colored or ethnic backrounded people.
because the data in my own head appears rather one-sided,
id like to find out what other data might be out there.
josh
Ashley Capps
te...@halcyon.com (Ted Thompson) wrote:
>
> During WW2, if a Jew made an anti-German remark, would that be considered
> as racist?
>
> Oppressed people can be bigoted but not racist.
>
I think we're getting bogged down in semantics here. Based on the
original context of this thread, the definition of racism which I was
using is simply the assertion of the natural superiority or inferiority of
one race to another. Period. By this definition, racism is a form of
bigotry. It makes no sense to me to say that "Oppressed people can be
bigoted but not racist." Furthermore, one doesn't have to look far to see
racial groups who are both oppressed by a stronger, more powerful, group
yet who have very definite ideas about their racial superiority to their
often equally oppressed neighbors. The contexts and therefore the aspects
of the interaction between all groups are constantly shifting; no group
lives in a vacuum.
I feel a bit baited by the opening question, but I would have to reply
that it depends upon the nature of the remark. I would never assert that
it is racist to be critical of a group of people or to insist that people
be held accountable for their actions. However, if the remark were
something like "If you are a German, then you are a brutal, horrible,
inhuman creature," then I would have to label that a racist remark
(though, perhaps in the context of WW2, an "understandable" one).
I'm really not looking for an argument here. From my point of view,
saying that a white man or woman can't play jazz because of being white is
like saying that
a black man or woman can't write symphonies because of being black. Both
statements are racist, ridiculous, and have nothing to do with music.
Ashley
Kevin Spencer
Perhaps this thread should be dropped... neither the original post
nor any of the follow-ups have actually discussed any alleged cases
of "racism towards white jazz musicians".
Kevin
Thomas F Brown
One of them actually did. Another example would IMO be the
recurring threads here about jazz being an "african music"
or some similar nonsense. It is uncommon for black musicians to
readily acknowledge white influences or innovators in the development
of the music. This is understandable to me, and in many cases
it is done more out of ignorance than a desire to discriminate.
But in some instances, this revisionist view of musicological
history is racist, IMO. I don't see how Lester Kenyatta's
rants could be construed otherwise.
Robert Angelo Pleshar
>During WW2, if a Jew made an anti-German remark, would that be considered
>as racist?
Well, for one thing, I've never heard anyone refer to Germans as their
own race, save certain demented Germans.
>Oppressed people can be bigoted but not racist.
This is just a bullshit wordgame, Ted.
Ralph
gsm
: >Many people rather than discuss the basic, blatant, obvious forms of
: >racism in our culture get this big ol' hard-on over whether one white guy
: >in one band might have been dropped because he was white. This gives
: >them a flag to march under forever. It's so painfully reactionary. To
: >call it a joke is to compliment it to highly.
: >
: >Ditto Affirmative Action and all the other code words for "roll back
: >civil rights".
: Gerry,
: I've been following (and staying out of) this thread for awhile, but I
: think you're the one who's being reactionary and is looking for a flag to
: march under.
GJ:
You're probably right--I ALSO have a flag to march under. In my case it
is a flag not constructed by code words like those I mentioned above. I
find the racism chit being proffered in any kind of situation and
then immediately hear the schtick about "reverse discrimination" and
"quotas" and everything else--all of it code for an acceptable return to
good old racism as we've always known it. The difference being that it's
okay to propigate hate and divisiveness if one uses the right code words.
Based on our current political trends there are dozens of nice code words
that allow people the freedom to enjoy racism as once they did--without
guilt.
To discuss this horseshit in the context of racism towards white
musicians seems a logical continuation. Next it will be that white guys
can't get jobs as porters in airports or as wash room attendants because
of anti-white sentiment.
: Now you're running for
: office, all hot and bothered-- and (hopefully this explains it) not paying
: attention to what you're saying.
I'm not running for office, I'm trying to fend off the culture war from
those who are. I'm paying much attention to what I'm saying, though you
may not agree with it.
: Racism, prejudice, bigotry, etc. are bad no matter who is on the "racist"
: side.
Easy platitudes that everybody agrees with. So you have to "encode" the
statement to get the racism back in without looking like a cretin.
--
///--- Gerry
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| There are two kinds of people in this world: those that divide |
| people into two groups of people, and those that don't. |
-------------------------------------------------------------------
J. David Holmes
Ted Thompson <te...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>
>Many band leaders (including Stan Kenton) refused to hire Black musicians.
While black musicians were not prevalent in his bands, Kenton did
not "refuse" to hire them. Trumpeter Kevin Jordan and trombonist
Douglas Purviance are two that I know of offhand. Both toured and
recorded with the band in the 70's.
--Dave
Frank Lepkowski
yourselves."--Nietzsche.
Frank Lepkowski
Oakland University
Ted Thompson
David Holmes) wrote:
Wouldn't you say that Kenton's hey day (as well as the big band era) was
over in the 70's? You might also include Harry James' hiring of Willie
Smith, the alto saxophonist as integrating his previously all white band.
The problem was that Smith was phenotypically "whiter" than James!
Ted
Ted Thompson
Capps) wrote:
> In article <tedt-19079...@blv-pm0-ip20.halcyon.com>,
> te...@halcyon.com (Ted Thompson) wrote:
> >
> > During WW2, if a Jew made an anti-German remark, would that be considered
> > as racist?
> >
> > Oppressed people can be bigoted but not racist.
> >
>
I think we're getting bogged down in semantics here. Based on the
> original context of this thread, the definition of racism which I was
> using is simply the assertion of the natural superiority or inferiority of
> one race to another. Period. By this definition, racism is a form of
> bigotry. It makes no sense to me to say that "Oppressed people can be
> bigoted but not racist."
"Bigotry" and "Racism" are not interchangeable. Racism is a formalized
system which has been woven into the fabric of American society. As far
as I know, Black people had nothing to do with the creation of systems in
America.
Bigotry, on the other hand, is a more individual expression. Of course,
Blacks can be bigoted and hateful but the expression of these attitudes is
meaningless when compared to the power of racism.
For many years, Black musicians were excluded from joining the musician's
union. Racism (my definition) kept Black music (read: R&B) confined to
Black radio stations. Many band leaders (including Stan Kenton) refused
to hire Black musicians.
When we speak of "Crow Jim" it is merely a deflection of justifiable
criticism directed toward "Jim Crow". There just ain't no comparison.
Ted
gsm
: It is uncommon for black musicians to
: readily acknowledge white influences or innovators in the development
: of the music. This is understandable to me, and in many cases
: it is done more out of ignorance than a desire to discriminate.
By "ignorance" do you mean that black musicians are indeed influenced by
by white innovators but don't realize it? How exactly does this work. If
as a kid your basic influences are Parker, Trane, Davis and Tyner, say,
where does the ignorance come in?
I myself have been influenced by only a precious few white players. I
don't know where the influences of my black role models come from, nor do
I care. But I wasn't influenced by their influences, I was influenced by
them.
gsm
but had no idea so many people could get so excited so quickly.
My original statement though snotty was real. To discuss racism
towards white musicians, if it exists anywhere or at anytime seems kind
of silly to me. Racism towards black musicians has been endemic in
american culture forever.
Many people rather than discuss the basic, blatant, obvious forms of
racism in our culture get this big ol' hard-on over whether one white guy
in one band might have been dropped because he was white. This gives
them a flag to march under forever. It's so painfully reactionary. To
call it a joke is to compliment it to highly.
Ditto Affirmative Action and all the other code words for "roll back
civil rights".
--
GJuke
>racism in our culture get this big ol' hard-on over whether one white guy
>in one band might have been dropped because he was white. This gives
>them a flag to march under forever. It's so painfully reactionary. To
>call it a joke is to compliment it to highly.
>Ditto Affirmative Action and all the other code words for "roll back
>civil rights".
Gerry,
I've been following (and staying out of) this thread for awhile, but I
think you're the one who's being reactionary and is looking for a flag to
march under....Jumping to conclusions just a bit, bro. Who said ANYTHING
about "rolling back civil rights"???? Somebody brought up a question, and
others raised some (possibly) legitimate issues. Now you're running for
office, all hot and bothered-- and (hopefully this explains it) not paying
attention to what you're saying.
Racism, prejudice, bigotry, etc. are bad no matter who is on the "racist"
side.
GJ
Ingo Riess
>During WW2, if a Jew made an anti-German remark, would that be considered
>as racist?
>Ted
in my opinion... yes!
ingo
gsm
: >of silly to me.
: Why? If you lived in a black city, as I do, you might have
: observed racism by blacks against whites. I experience it
: quite often in Baltimore, because I "look white". I take
: it very seriously, and see no reason not to point it out
: or discuss it.
There are some gay friends I have who whenever talk of the Holocaust
comes up they want to couch the genocide as if it were all about killing
homosexuals.
However true the basic problem with racism in the US is
not about the oppression of whites. I can't argue with your personal
experience, of course. It is the basic american discourse. Instead of
talking about oppression and racism in terms of where 95% of it takes
place, we once again have to talk about white people and their problems.
gsm
: >find the racism chit being proffered in any kind of situation and
: >then immediately hear the schtick about "reverse discrimination" and
: >"quotas" and everything else--all of it code for an acceptable return to
: >good old racism as we've always known it. The difference being that it's
: >okay to propigate hate and divisiveness if one uses the right code words.
: So you can't or won't try to distinguish between closet racists
: using symbolic language, and those who are sincerely trying to
: discuss the issue in a relatively objective manner? Why not?
Because the entire dialogue on "reverse discrimination" came out of a
vacuum. I think it is 100% political and I think it is being used by
political people to divide the electorate for their personal needs--that
is to secure a job.
Does it play into basic fears about job security in the USA?
Absolutely. Does it play into basic low level racial fears? Certainly.
The people who are discussing it in a "relatively objective manner" are
doing so within the confines of a politically inculcated "debate".
Rather than discussing how joblessness maybe a result of a screwed up
government who needs low-cost, worried, expendable workers, we can couch
it in a vaguely racial way. The blacks are being quota'd into our jobs.
The Mexicans ("illegal aliens") are taking "real" american's jobs. All
racial bullshit.
: >: Racism, prejudice, bigotry, etc. are bad no matter who is on the "racist"
: >: side.
: >
: >Easy platitudes that everybody agrees with. So you have to "encode" the
: >statement to get the racism back in without looking like a cretin.
: So anybody who deplores anti-white racism is a closet racist?
Certainly not. As I say upstream, they are discussing the tip of the
iceberg and doing their best to separate it somehow from the whole
block.
I deplare racism--doesn't everybody who is a member of a race?
This we can agree on. It's just that those who want to discuss the 5%
discrimination that visits whites and to use it as ballast to discard
the remaining 95% of such issues are talking politics, not racism. Also
note that these dialogues invariably set up a "us-versus-them"
perpective. Right now the Us is white and the Them is the government
giving blacks hand-outs. This allows us a buffer between directly
anti-black rhetoric.
---
So you've "countered" my argument by drawing conclusions I didn't have,
nor didn't intend. Do you have an opinion of your own on this matter. Why
not?
Kaybre
We should talk about Afro American problems, Hispanic problems, Chinese
problems, white problems, purple problems, green
problems.......................
We Need To Talk-------a problem for one, turns to frustration,
misunderstanding and
resentment.........................................................
It doesn't diminish one person's problem to talk about another's--its sad
that we seem to be to afraid or bitter to realize that real solutions lie
in understanding, not rhetoric!
Kaybre
P4mus
Kaybre
I believe this was about whether discrimination of whites in music should
be an acceptable practice. I venture to guess that most of the people
entering into this dialog are not arguing over Affirmative Action, and
many oppose its out and out demise!
Do we really need to entangle these two issues? It's like barganing over
two innocent hostages
Kaybre
P4mus
Shemu-ail Ben-Moshe
met him back in the 1960s, asked him to let me sit in on poetry and
bongoes with his avant-garde jazz band, US (Contemporary Music Society),
and he said yes. I'm a white Jew who is painfully aware of descrimination
against my people since Abraham ben Terah left UR (located in modern
Iraq) for "the Promised Land." I know about the Spanish Inquisition,
Russian pogroms and the NAZI German Holocaust, all of which murdered
millions of my people, and Bill was very aware of the Arab and European
slave traders, the KKK and the American NAZI Party. Both of us also
realized, and I knew and worked with Bill since the 1960s, that black
Baptists, Catholics and Muslims and white Jews didn't always dig each
other. When I put down Jesse Jackson and Louis Farrakhan for anti-Semitic
remarks, Bill agreed with me. When he would mention certain Jewish
leaders in the music business for their insensitivity towards avant-garde
jazz musicians, many of whom are black like Cecil Taylor or Ornette
Coleman, and I'm not citing them in particular, and Bill would attack
them, I would agree. We knew that each other was as honest enough to
ourselves and each other as is humanly possible.
Bill hired many white musicians, and fellow black cats didn't dig it, and
as result he lost many gigs in spots owned and operated by African
Americans. I was put down for being white by quite a few black musicians,
some of whom thought that Bill was an Uncle Tom. Bill knew more about
music than most. He taught theory and harmony. He wrote numerous
compositions. He wrote for all the instruments, and arranged and
conducted US (CMS) for years. We even made a recording of poetry and
music on our own label. Our company was called Lewis/ben-Moshe
Productions. BTW, he once told me his name was Lewis (from North
Carolina) because the slave owner was a Jew. I told him that I thought it
was quite possible, and that it didn't look good for me, but neither did
the Jew, Henry Kissinger make it anny better for his own kind by selling
warplanes to Egypt during the 1973 Yom Kippur War.
Racism and ant-Semitism sucks!!! But, it is NOT going away. Bill was like
my father and my brother. When it comes to music, I miss him more than
any friend I know and knew. We did the whole nine yards together on the
radio, in clubs, on the streets of Philly, and a lot of cats thought we
were weird, and others thought we had somethin' goin'. We both knew
discrimination from each others and our own. I can cite instances when we
were both told to leave the late Dan Jones' Studio in Philly by some
Afro-Centric dudes because they didn't want any whites or ofays in a
Black situation. I knew when my own (Jews) didn't like me being with that
shvatzah. I told them to kiss off. It works both ways. Life sucks, and
then you die!
Shemu-ail ben-Moshe
shem...@netaxs.com
J. David Holmes (jdho...@access5.digex.net)
wrote: : In article <tedt-20079...@blv-pm0-ip20.halcyon.com>,
: Ted Thompson <te...@halcyon.com> wrote:
: >
: >Many band leaders (including Stan Kenton) refused to hire Black musicians.
: While black musicians were not prevalent in his bands, Kenton did
: not "refuse" to hire them. Trumpeter Kevin Jordan and trombonist
: Douglas Purviance are two that I know of offhand. Both toured and
: recorded with the band in the 70's.
: --Dave
J. David Holmes
Ted Thompson <te...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>In article <3um4tn$h...@access5.digex.net>, jdho...@access5.digex.net (J.
>
>> In article <tedt-20079...@blv-pm0-ip20.halcyon.com>,
>> Ted Thompson <te...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >Many band leaders (including Stan Kenton) refused to hire Black musicians.
>>
>> While black musicians were not prevalent in his bands, Kenton did
>> not "refuse" to hire them. Trumpeter Kevin Jordan and trombonist
>> Douglas Purviance are two that I know of offhand. Both toured and
>> recorded with the band in the 70's.
>
>over in the 70's? You might also include Harry James' hiring of Willie
>Smith, the alto saxophonist as integrating his previously all white band.
>The problem was that Smith was phenotypically "whiter" than James!
No, I would not say that, nor do I see how that would change my answer.
Kenton in no way "refused to hire black musicians" as you assert.
Bassist Curtis Counce (who later did some sessions as a leader
featuring Kenton alumnus Jack Sheldon) played in the band as early as
the 50's.
If anything, I would say that Kenton's hey day _was_ the seventies.
He had established his own recording label and publishing house,
toured constantly in the US and Europe and spent most of each summer
conducting "In Residence" clinics on college campuses, attended by
thousands of people who were discovering his music for the first time.
He was hardly winding down his career when his health began failing.
--Dave
Ted Thompson
> No, I would not say that, nor do I see how that would change my answer.
> Kenton in no way "refused to hire black musicians" as you assert.
> Bassist Curtis Counce (who later did some sessions as a leader
> featuring Kenton alumnus Jack Sheldon) played in the band as early as
> the 50's.
>
> If anything, I would say that Kenton's hey day _was_ the seventies.
My "hey day" was in the 30's and 40's and my reference to Kenton (and
other big bands) really applied to the 1940's.
However, you are aware that during the 30's and 40's there were "white"
bands and "Black" bands in America. As far as I am concerned, Duke
Ellington had the first interracial band with Juan Tizol. (Yes, I know
Juan was Puerto Rican but so was Jose Ferrer.)
Ted
GJuke
"racist"
>: side.
>Easy platitudes that everybody agrees with. So you have to "encode" the
>statement to get the racism back in without looking like a cretin.
Gerry,
Was this a general statement? Or was _I_ "encoding" again without
realizing it!?! I hate when that happens.
GJ
Thomas F Brown
>
>My original statement though snotty was real. To discuss racism
>towards white musicians, if it exists anywhere or at anytime seems kind
>of silly to me.
Why? If you lived in a black city, as I do, you might have
observed racism by blacks against whites. I experience it
quite often in Baltimore, because I "look white". I take
it very seriously, and see no reason not to point it out
or discuss it.
>Racism towards black musicians has been endemic in
>american culture forever.
Hardly under dispute.
>Many people rather than discuss the basic, blatant, obvious forms of
>racism in our culture get this big ol' hard-on over whether one white guy
>in one band might have been dropped because he was white. This gives
>them a flag to march under forever. It's so painfully reactionary. To
>call it a joke is to compliment it to highly.
So racism against whites is acceptable? Or it just shouldn't be discussed?
I would have to consider your posts reactionary, given that you haven't
directly addressed the issue. If you want to talk about racism against
black musicians, we can do that too. But why should we avoid discussing
racism against whites? It's very real, and just as disturbing for its
victims as similar kinds of discrimination.
>Ditto Affirmative Action and all the other code words for "roll back
>civil rights".
This doesn't parse.
Ashley Capps
> "Bigotry" and "Racism" are not interchangeable.
I didn't say that they were. You should read more carefully.
> Racism is a formalized
> system which has been woven into the fabric of American society. As far
> as I know, Black people had nothing to do with the creation of systems in
> America.
To the best of my knowledge, no one on this thread has attempted to deny
the existence of racism in America. However, the statement above is not a
definition of racism. Consult your dictionary. As to the extent to which
it is a "formalized system" and the rest, I'll leave that discussion to
others.
> Bigotry, on the other hand, is a more individual expression. Of course,
> Blacks can be bigoted and hateful but the expression of these attitudes is
> meaningless when compared to the power of racism.
Again, consult your dictionary. Bigotry is in no way limited to expression
by individuals, nor is racism necessarily practiced by groups with power.
> For many years, Black musicians were excluded from joining the musician's
> union. Racism (my definition) kept Black music (read: R&B) confined to
> Black radio stations. Many band leaders (including Stan Kenton) refused
> to hire Black musicians.
Again, no argument from me here, except that apparently Kenton did hire at
least a few black musicians. I'm not enough of a Kenton fan to actually
know.
> When we speak of "Crow Jim" it is merely a deflection of justifiable
> criticism directed toward "Jim Crow". There just ain't no comparison.
To say that I don't want to acknowledge racism against one group because
it takes attention away from racism against another is to avoid the true
issue. To say that racism against me is worse than racism against you is
in itself racist. A true case of not being able to see the forest for the
trees.
I'm dropping out of further discussion of this issue. I've said more than
enought already.
What I really would like to know is: Can a Blue man sing the Whites?
Ashley
Thomas F Brown
>
>You're probably right--I ALSO have a flag to march under. In my case it
>is a flag not constructed by code words like those I mentioned above. I
>find the racism chit being proffered in any kind of situation and
>then immediately hear the schtick about "reverse discrimination" and
>"quotas" and everything else--all of it code for an acceptable return to
>good old racism as we've always known it. The difference being that it's
>okay to propigate hate and divisiveness if one uses the right code words.
So you can't or won't try to distinguish between closet racists
using symbolic language, and those who are sincerely trying to
discuss the issue in a relatively objective manner? Why not?
>: Racism, prejudice, bigotry, etc. are bad no matter who is on the "racist"
>: side.
>
>Easy platitudes that everybody agrees with. So you have to "encode" the
>statement to get the racism back in without looking like a cretin.
So anybody who deplores anti-white racism is a closet racist?
Thomas F Brown
>: readily acknowledge white influences or innovators in the development
>: of the music. This is understandable to me, and in many cases
>: it is done more out of ignorance than a desire to discriminate.
>
>By "ignorance" do you mean that black musicians are indeed influenced by
>by white innovators but don't realize it? How exactly does this work. If
>as a kid your basic influences are Parker, Trane, Davis and Tyner, say,
>where does the ignorance come in?
I was referring to ignorance of musicological history. Black players
often discount white contributions to the music, and accuse white
players of "stealing our music". It's difficult to tell how much
of this is due to ignorance of white contributions, and how much
is motivated by a conscious desire to downplay them.
>I myself have been influenced by only a precious few white players. I
>don't know where the influences of my black role models come from, nor do
>I care. But I wasn't influenced by their influences, I was influenced by
>them.
Well, if you're not as interested in history as I am, that's cool.
But you may run the risk of accepting a version of the story
that has been constructed according to a bit of anti-white sentiment.
Kaybre
musicians, or for that matter Afro-Americans in any profession were not
very unfairly discriminated against. And I KNOW this is still happening,
and that it needs to stop NOW............
However, it is in JUST THIS WAY that we have already been shown on a
MAMOUTH scale what a tragic waste it is for all of us when any talent is
overlooked, cast aside, or rejected in any field soley on the basis of the
color of their skin, or racial/ethnic background.
ALL HUMAN LIVES ARE RELATIVELY SHORT in the overall scheme of things, and
PEOPLE ARE HERE AND GONE SO VERY QUICKLY. To waste anyone's talent out of
pride, hatred, blind bitteness and retribution or revenge is a loss for
everyone. You usually can't tell of what importance someone's
contribution will be.....only time can do that truly------when we miss out
on somebody, it doesn't change the past, doesn't better your position, my
position, their position, etc.. IT IS VERY SAD--- AND WE ALL
LOOSE........
Lance Christensen
1. Racism has and does exist. Racism towards African Americans (and
other minorities, including women) has existed in jazz since its
inception. There has also been racism against whites, though maybe not
on as large a scale). These are things we should learn from and work to
eliminate in our lives.
2. I am a musician. I don't play with whites, blacks or anything else.
I play with MUSICIANS. Anything else interferes with the music.
Lance Christensen
John Solder
It's called FLAME BAITING.
Stop this silliness.
Someone mentioned a CBS recording of Bill Evans live that was better
than the (live at the Vanguard) ?
Is it available ?
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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| |
| The opinions expressed herein do not reflect nor represent |
| the views of CS First Boston Corp. They were planted in my |
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| |
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| CS First Boston Corp. |
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--
John Clayton Foster
>g...@netcom.com (gsm) writes:
>
>>Andrew Dahlke (ad...@umich.edu) wrote:
>>: Would anyone care to offer their insight toward this subject
>
>>I don't think I can cry one more tear for the plight of the poor
>>downtrodden put-upon whites, whether musician or those crippled by
>>Affirmative Action.
>
>I think that anyone who selectively ignores the suffering of the
>members of any one group on the basis of their skin color is indeed
>a racist himself. It is certainly possible that any group may make
>spurious claims to suffering on the basis of race or gender. And
>granted that one's patience may occasionally run out. But one
>is not entitled to presume that all claims by any one given group are
>to be considered spurious, or are no longer worthy of attention. In
>fact, the mitigation of racism against any one group is contingent upon
>the recognition of racist beliefs across all groups.
>
>Sincerely, Luke Kaven
That's all well and good but reminds of an old saying;
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice,
but in practice there is.
I can't think or even imagine of any group of human beings
that does not members who hold some prejduced beleifs. It
would be very nice if wwe could wipe these sentiments off the
face of the earth. But since that doesn't seem likely any time
soon we just have to deal with this imperfect world.
I think many people (like myself) believe that _any_ discrimination
based on race relegion etc... is abhorrant BUT when one puts
this percieved racism in context with hundreds of years of
social, economic and sometimes violent war against americans
of african descent, the comment "you play good for a white boy"
sounds a little like whineing to me.
I rather like Wynton's response to Charlie Rose's question
about supposed discrimination at JaLC, "maybe we should
have a white composers week." He was of course was refering
to the common practice of classical orchistra's "black composers
month" (usually in feb). I think that this is an excelent analogy
for the situation discussed here.
If this supposed anti-white boy discrimination really does exist
(and im not sure it does) I think it might not actually be _that_
bad. I think it might be a good thing to give white people a
taste of something that black americans have to face in every
facet of their lives 24/7. Maybe they would think twice before
voting for politicans who want to keep black americans a perminant
under-class.
John
ps
I wonder if Bird ever told red rodney "you play good for a white
boy"--somehow I doubt it.
C Doering
<jaz...@klon.org> wrote:
> There's a term called "CROWJIM" that was used in the 50s and 60s, wonder
> if neo-CrowJim might apply today?
>
It was nonsense then and it is still nonsense today. If I remember
correctly, It as a term used to criticize people like Charles Mingus,
Abbey Lincoln and even Miles. Mingus and Lincoln for their politics and
Miles because he didn't think much of white folks as jazz musicians,
(forget about Gil Evans, he didn't count)
Whenever African Americans seem to develope any political or economic
clout (same thing really) it is a conspiracy according to the majority of
whites.
Total nonsense
CD
--
Sweet Home Chicago
GJuke
>boy"--somehow I doubt it.
No; but is it true that Red had to masquerade as an "albino" black person
to play some of the clubs they were working?
GJ
gsm
: That's all well and good but reminds of an old saying;
: In theory there is no difference between theory and practice,
: but in practice there is.
Good line.
: I rather like Wynton's response to Charlie Rose's question
: about supposed discrimination at JaLC, "maybe we should
: have a white composers week." He was of course was refering
: to the common practice of classical orchistra's "black composers
: month" (usually in feb). I think that this is an excelent analogy
: for the situation discussed here.
My response for these "set-aside's" for white people: "You mean a special
week out of the other 51 weeks that we already have for white composers?"
Malte Rogacki
In article <tedt-21079...@blv-pm0-ip16.halcyon.com>, Ted Thompson
writes:
> My "hey day" was in the 30's and 40's and my reference to Kenton (and
> other big bands) really applied to the 1940's.
>
>
> However, you are aware that during the 30's and 40's there were "white"
> bands and "Black" bands in America. As far as I am concerned, Duke
> Ellington had the first interracial band with Juan Tizol. (Yes, I know
> Juan was Puerto Rican but so was Jose Ferrer.)
I once read that Tizol had to put on a "black" make-up because his skin
color was regarded not dark enough for some audiences. Can anybody confirm
this? If it was true it would make a nice addition to this thread...
--
Malte Rogacki ga...@sax.sax.de 10011...@compuserve.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't forget to TURN ON THE SYNTHESIZER. Often this is the reason why
you get no sound out of it." (ARP 2600 Owner's Manual)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Victor Eijkhout
Jim Hall told how he was regularly mistaken for Sonny Rollins' manager.
--
Victor Eijkhout
405 Hilgard Ave ............................... In another infamous incident,
Department of Mathematics, UCLA ............... a [Los Angeles] Times editor
Los Angeles CA 90024 .................... changed "69-car pileup" to "70-car
phone: +1 310 825 2173 / 9036 ............. pileup" to avoid "titillating or
home: +1 310 209 0068 ..................... offending readers." [Chip Rowe]
http://www.math.ucla.edu/~eijkhout/
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu
>I find the racism chit being proffered in any kind of situation and
>then immediately hear the schtick about "reverse discrimination" and
>"quotas" and everything else--all of it code for an acceptable return to
>good old racism as we've always known it. The difference being that it's
>okay to propigate hate and divisiveness if one uses the right code words.
>
>that allow people the freedom to enjoy racism as once they did--without
>guilt.
>
>To discuss this horseshit in the context of racism towards white
>musicians seems a logical continuation. Next it will be that white guys
>can't get jobs as porters in airports or as wash room attendants because
>of anti-white sentiment.
Gerry,
Perhaps you have embroiled yourself in this emotional issue so far that you
have forgotten to exercise reason. Does it matter what the word on the
street is, or what particular phrase people couch their ideology in? Their
actions should speak for themselves. I agree with what you're saying about
"reverse discrimination" and "quotas" because those are flawed concepts,
regardless of whether or not I like the terms.
The problem is that whenever people feel the need to violate another person's
rights, they invent code words to justify their actions. You can look at Nazi
Germany or right next door for plenty of examples of this. But you and I are
thinking individuals, and we are able to question the content of a policy
independent of its label. The average moron on the street (speaking from the
utter height of pretentiousness here, as I am fully aware) may not be able to
make that conceptual leap, but that's an entirely separate issue.
Unfortunately the discussion about labels does not get at the root of the
problem of racism-toward-white-jazz-musicians. If we spend less time with
labels then we will make more headway toward conceptual resolution. The
point is, how widespread is the failure to recognize white jazz artists,
how much does it affect their professional life, and how do we go about
solving the problem, if any. This is what we should be discussing.
Not being a professional, I cannot speak from personal experience, but I
have observed the behavior of specific black jazz musicians who have a
problem with respect for their white peers. How widespread, I don't know.
The people who argue that white people don't know a thing about being
discriminated against (sorry, no quote here, but it was recently posted)
are sort of missing the point. Every human knows the down side of a power
relationship, regardless of starting point. And in music, even though
white people may control the purse strings of record companies and clubs,
the relationship of musician to musician is important. And the relationship
of critic to musician may be life or death for someone's career. These are
the places where change may need to occur.
Notwithstanding all the other places, of course. But let's try not to be
blind to the issues which face musicians every day.
-Nils
Ted Thompson
>
> I once read that Tizol had to put on a "black" make-up because his skin
> color was regarded not dark enough for some audiences. Can anybody confirm
> this? If it was true it would make a nice addition to this thread...
Not only was Juan Tizol "darkened up" but so were Barney Bigard and Otto
Hardwicke for their appearances in motion pictures. They weren't
darkened for public appearances.
Incidentally, that was one of the reasons Barney Kessel plays in the
shadows in "Jammin' the Blues". Kessel complained about this in light of
Lester Young being prominently featured. Lester was about as light
complected as Kessel.
Laurie Sonnenfeld
Malte Rogacki <ga...@gacki.sax.de> wrote:
>I once read that Tizol had to put on a "black" make-up because his skin
>color was regarded not dark enough for some audiences. Can anybody confirm
>this? If it was true it would make a nice addition to this thread...
In - I believe - the film "Check and Double Check" featuring the
Ellington Orchestra, Tizol can be seen wearing dark makeup and looking
several shades darker than he appears in any other photograph I've
ever seen.
Am not sure if the film is currently available on video, but it does show
up during the late night now and then. Ellington may not be mentioned in
your TV guide - look for the title, and the mention of 'stars' Amos and
Andy!
Jim Andrews c/o lau...@teleport.com
--
Jim Andrews c/o
lau...@teleport.COM Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-1016 (2400-14400, N81)
Larry Lewicki
This thread reminds me of something I read by Miles somewhere - could
have been an interview (I hope it wasn't plagarized.). Anyway it
was regarding hiring Bill Evans to play piano in the Kind of Blue
days. Miles claimed that he took flack from black musicians for
having a white piano player (and putting a black pianist out of
work - read Bill Cole's bio of Miles for Bill's take on Evans as
weakening the sound of Miles' band). Anyway Miles said something to
the effect that he didn't care if Evans was white or purple - he had
the sound that Miles wanted.
L^2
---
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Larry Lewicki | National Semiconductor |Opinions are mine and in *NO* |
*l...@galaxy.nsc.com | Santa Clara, CA |way represent National Semi. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ton Maas
mil...@prl.philips.co.uk (Alan Mills) wrote:
>In article <tedt-20079...@blv-pm0-ip20.halcyon.com>,
>Ted Thompson <te...@halcyon.com> wrote:
>>
>>Many band leaders (including Stan Kenton) refused to hire Black musicians.
>
>Not true - Curtis Counce played bass with the Kenton band which toured
>Europe in 1956. I've got his autograph on the programme to prove it!
I heard from a jazz-historian that white band leaders sometimes hired black
musicians for European tours only, because in Europe mixed ensembles were
less of a problem for agents, advertizers etc. He explained that to publish
photographs of a racially mixed enesemble in the US was vertually
impossible in those days.
Ton Maas, Amsterdam NL
Mark Eisenman
>>boy"--somehow I doubt it.
>
>No; but is it true that Red had to masquerade as an "albino" black person
>to play some of the clubs they were working?
>
Yes, but that was because of bigotry in the south, regarding having MIXED bands on a stage.
Ted Thompson
> Why? If you lived in a black city, as I do, you might have
> observed racism by blacks against whites.
What is a "black city"?
>
> So racism against whites is acceptable?
My objection is to your use of the term "racism" . "Bigotry", "hate" or
any of a host of synonyms might be correct. Not racism.
Ted
TornCot
Dave Krugman
gsm
>>Based on our current political trends there are dozens of nice code words
>>that allow people the freedom to enjoy racism as once they did--without
>>guilt.
>
>Does it matter what the word on the
>street is, or what particular phrase people couch their ideology in? Their
>actions should speak for themselves.
Time to wake up--propaganda is a matter of putting words on the street.
It's a matter of couching what might be either a benign or critically
important argument into iedological terms to accomplish ideological goals
that may have nothing to do with the perceived argument on the street.
Affirmative Action, as an example is not about how blacks are taking
white people's jobs, nor about "fairness"--despite the fact that this is
the "word on the street". It is about electing certain parties to office
by dividing a worried white populace into an actionable voting block. It
has nothing to do with race. It has everything to with instiling fear
and hatred in order to accomplish political goals.
The "actions" which speak for themselves is voting, not burning a cross
on someon'e lawn or denying them front door entrance to a restaurant.
>The problem is that whenever people feel the need to violate another person's
>rights, they invent code words to justify their actions. You can look at Nazi
>Germany or right next door for plenty of examples of this. But you and I are
>thinking individuals, and we are able to question the content of a policy
>independent of its label. The average moron on the street (speaking from the
>utter height of pretentiousness here, as I am fully aware) may not be able to
>make that conceptual leap, but that's an entirely separate issue.
The problem as I see it is injecting the "morons on the street" with the
energy to vote for a party so that said party can accumulate more wealth
and power. In order to get these "moron's" off their butts and into
action they appeal to, and invent if necessary, fear and hatred. The
"word on the street" is blacks and latinos are coming to take your jobs
away from you and put you out of work and make you homeless. That's
enough impetus to get a vote out of many.
>The
>point is, how widespread is the failure to recognize white jazz artists,
>how much does it affect their professional life, and how do we go about
>solving the problem, if any. This is what we should be discussing.
I think you've failed to take into account how much consideration
of race is a factor, no? Otherwise "faiure to recognize white jazz
artists" may have nothing to do with racism but instead everything to do
with this subset being inept or inappropriate--based of course on WHICH
group of white jazz artists are going unrecognized.
>And in music, even though
>white people may control the purse strings of record companies and clubs,
>the relationship of musician to musician is important. And the relationship
>of critic to musician may be life or death for someone's career. These are
>the places where change may need to occur.
>
>Notwithstanding all the other places, of course. But let's try not to be
>blind to the issues which face musicians every day.
In having the vision to note the issues that face musicians
every day in the USA, I believe that racism and discrimination still
falls, by and large, to one major subset. And it's not whites. So for
us to take the white side of the subset and give it special consideration
when it constitutes an insignificant part of the whole is a waste of time.
We could consider health-related dietary issues say, and consider the
ingestion of snowpeas, peanuts and carcinogens. There are some that
would think it most important to consider first and foremost the
snowpeas. Not me.
Right now when we discuss the "problem" of discrimination against whites,
and the "problem" of 'reverse-discrimination" we are discussing political
campaign issues that have almost nothing to do with our lives and
everything to do with ideology. Which is essentially all I've said about
this issue from the beginning.
Kaybre
seem to be REALLY listening to what each other is saying, and just getting
bogged down in semantics, and all the usual rhetoric. LIFE IS TOO SHORT
TO WASTE TALENT. We are all individuals under our exterior coating.
LISTEN, we all have valid things to say, let them in and find your way to
some new understandings. I know I'm trying to......................
Kaybre
P4mus
GJuke
Are you saying that bop musicians in the 40's (mostly young, black, N.Y.
City residents or transplanted New Yorkers a la Bird/Diz/Miles) where
playing "white" dance clubs in the south? I'm not sure that's accurate....
Could you elaborate?
GJ
Thomas F Brown
>. BTW, he once told me his name was Lewis (from North
>Carolina) because the slave owner was a Jew.
A slave-owning jew in north carolina! Hilarious.
Unfortunately, I have also run into young black persons who actually
believe that jews were heavily represented in the slaveowning
classes. I point out that jews constituted less than 1% of the total
US population during the first half of the 19th century, and
they look at me like I'm part of The Conspiracy.
Here we have another example of black racism,
perpetuated mostly by the NOI's propaganda.
Mark Eisenman
hat that he was labeled "Albino" in order to be able to work in clubs that would exclude "mixed" bands. I'll try and find the refere=
nce.
Mark
Jerry Moore
Thank you for what seems to be the first logical,
non-reactionary, thoughtful postings for this
entire thread.
--
Jerry Moore
saxm...@ix.netcom.com
http://www.gwp.com/residential/homes/jmoore
"yeah."
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu
>There are some gay friends I have who whenever talk of the Holocaus
>comes up they want to couch the genocide as if it were all about killing
>homosexuals.
It sure had a lot to do with that, along with all the other "undesirables."
>It is the basic american discourse. Instead of
>talking about oppression and racism in terms of where 95% of it takes
>place, we once again have to talk about white people and their problems.
Gerry,
Not to make this a personal attack, but you have been the leading proponent
of this point of view. I totally disagree with the concept and the
statement.
It is no less wrong to kill the 5 green people while you're also busy killing
the 95 yellow people. Just because as many green people aren't dying does
not make it less wrong. You seem to apply a quantitative morality here that
makes no sense to me (the slippery slope, etc.).
If you want to talk about racism toward blacks, then let's go ahead with
that, too. So far the subject has not been discussed much. We should no
less take that for granted than expect white people to be exempt from
racism. Instead of whining about how you don't like other people to talk
about a perceived injustice (we can get down to nuts and bolts once the
discussion-about-the-discussion stops), why not bring up the issues that
you feel are more important?
In other words, I think we should quit this pointless tangent and decide
if there really is racism toward white jazz musicians. We are witnessing
the onslaught of politicism dressed as something benign. Be proactive,
let's talk about what we think is important and leave the other people to
discuss what they think is important.
This is my last contribution on this issue.
-Nils
Kevin Spencer
>Are you saying that bop musicians in the 40's (mostly young, black, N.Y.
>City residents or transplanted New Yorkers a la Bird/Diz/Miles) where
>playing "white" dance clubs in the south? I'm not sure that's accurate....
>Could you elaborate?
No, they were playing black dance clubs in the South, and had to present
Red Rodney as an albino.
Kevin
Shemu-ail Ben-Moshe
purposefully offended any black person, then where does any black person
have the right to hit on me? As a Jew, I know that not all Germans were
into the NAZI cause though it appeared to be most, I don't go round
trying to screw every German I meet. Screw me personally, and I'm goin'
to try to screw you. Do we need a computer to figure this out? Study the
Tao and the Ten (of 613) Commandments sometimes.
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu wrote:
: g...@netcom.com (gsm) wrote:
: >I find the racism chit being proffered in any kind of situation and
: >then immediately hear the schtick about "reverse discrimination" and
: >"quotas" and everything else--all of it code for an acceptable return to
: >good old racism as we've always known it. The difference being that it's
: >okay to propigate hate and divisiveness if one uses the right code words.
: >
: >Based on our current political trends there are dozens of nice code words
: >that allow people the freedom to enjoy racism as once they did--without
: >guilt.
: >
: >To discuss this horseshit in the context of racism towards white
: >musicians seems a logical continuation. Next it will be that white guys
: >can't get jobs as porters in airports or as wash room attendants because
: >of anti-white sentiment.
: Gerry,
: Perhaps you have embroiled yourself in this emotional issue so far that you
: have forgotten to exercise reason. Does it matter what the word on the
: street is, or what particular phrase people couch their ideology in? Their
: actions should speak for themselves. I agree with what you're saying about
: "reverse discrimination" and "quotas" because those are flawed concepts,
: regardless of whether or not I like the terms.
: The problem is that whenever people feel the need to violate another person's
: rights, they invent code words to justify their actions. You can look at Nazi
: Germany or right next door for plenty of examples of this. But you and I are
: thinking individuals, and we are able to question the content of a policy
: independent of its label. The average moron on the street (speaking from the
: utter height of pretentiousness here, as I am fully aware) may not be able to
: make that conceptual leap, but that's an entirely separate issue.
: Unfortunately the discussion about labels does not get at the root of the
: problem of racism-toward-white-jazz-musicians. If we spend less time with
: labels then we will make more headway toward conceptual resolution. The
: point is, how widespread is the failure to recognize white jazz artists,
: how much does it affect their professional life, and how do we go about
: solving the problem, if any. This is what we should be discussing.
: Not being a professional, I cannot speak from personal experience, but I
: have observed the behavior of specific black jazz musicians who have a
: problem with respect for their white peers. How widespread, I don't know.
: The people who argue that white people don't know a thing about being
: discriminated against (sorry, no quote here, but it was recently posted)
: are sort of missing the point. Every human knows the down side of a power
: relationship, regardless of starting point. And in music, even though
: white people may control the purse strings of record companies and clubs,
: the relationship of musician to musician is important. And the relationship
: of critic to musician may be life or death for someone's career. These are
: the places where change may need to occur.
: Notwithstanding all the other places, of course. But let's try not to be
: blind to the issues which face musicians every day.
: -Nils
J. David Holmes
> Anyway Miles said something to
>the effect that he didn't care if Evans was white or purple - he had
>the sound that Miles wanted.
Actually, I think it was the sound of his name that Miles liked.
This is why another white Bill Evans played saxophone in his band
and he collaborated with Gil Evans. Miles also liked the sound of
the name Zawinul......
--Dave
Thomas F Brown
>: >
>: >Easy platitudes that everybody agrees with. So you have to "encode" the
>: >statement to get the racism back in without looking like a cretin.
>
>: So anybody who deplores anti-white racism is a closet racist?
>
>I deplare racism--doesn't everybody who is a member of a race?
>This we can agree on. It's just that those who want to discuss the 5%
>discrimination that visits whites and to use it as ballast to discard
>the remaining 95% of such issues are talking politics, not racism. Also
>note that these dialogues invariably set up a "us-versus-them"
>perpective. Right now the Us is white and the Them is the government
>giving blacks hand-outs. This allows us a buffer between directly
>anti-black rhetoric.
>
>So you've "countered" my argument by drawing conclusions I didn't have,
>nor didn't intend. Do you have an opinion of your own on this matter. Why
>not?
I was just trying to understand how your rants relate to the thread's
title. They don't, really. I agree with nearly everything you've said
in this thread--except for the implication that we can't discuss
this topic without aligning ourselves with the white racists of the world.
In fact, black racism is something I have experienced many times, something
that disturbs me greatly. I see no reason why it shouldn't be discussed.
Unfortunately, it doesn't look like you and Ted are going to stop frothing
long enough to allow an intelligent discussion to develop.
Thomas F Brown
>
>Unfortunately the discussion about labels does not get at the root of the
>problem of racism-toward-white-jazz-musicians. If we spend less time with
>labels then we will make more headway toward conceptual resolution. The
>point is, how widespread is the failure to recognize white jazz artists,
>how much does it affect their professional life, and how do we go about
>solving the problem, if any. This is what we should be discussing.
I think what Gerry and others want to point out is that it's really not
a terribly pressing issue, certainly not compared with what black
musicians have to deal with in every other facet of their lives.
But it's still interesting, in sort of a "man bites dog"
perspective. Racism against blacks is so pervasive that
it's nothing unusual, and has been discussed endlessly.
Racism by black musicians against white musicians is a
more novel topic of discussion. I really doubt if it affects
white musicians in a terribly detrimental way. In fact, I would
guess that it generally turns out to be more detrimental to the
perpetrators than the "victims".
I think it has contributed to a distorted perception of jazz history,
however, one in which the relentlessly multi-cultural nature of the
tradition is downplayed while african contributions are overemphasized.
>Not being a professional, I cannot speak from personal experience, but I
>have observed the behavior of specific black jazz musicians who have a
>problem with respect for their white peers. How widespread, I don't know.
Not that widespread in my experience, but definitely out there.
It's never really harmed me all that much, but it is very disturbing
when it happens. I'm fortunate enough to be able to write it off as
some asshole's ignorance. What *really* hurts me is when I experience
anti-white racism from children. That almost makes me cry.
PS: Re the definition of "racism": this ain't a sociology journal.
Webster's definition covers any form of discrimination based
on perceptions of race. This ridiculous debate over semantics
has pretty much ruined any hope of us developing an interesting thread.
Thomas F Brown
>
>Jim Hall told how he was regularly mistaken for Sonny Rollins' manager.
Jim was actually a big target of black racism too. Apparently black cats
were always after Sonny about hiring Jim. He took constant heat for it.
This is probably the best-documented instance of the subject at hand.
Genie Baker
>>I wonder if Bird ever told red rodney "you play good for a white
>>boy"--somehow I doubt it.
>
>No; but is it true that Red had to masquerade as an "albino" black person
>to play some of the clubs they were working?
>
>GJ
Our news server here crashed, so I've missed about a week of rmb and
may be repeating things other people have already said. There was an
article in one of the jazz magazines -- JazzTimes or JazzIs (JazzIz?), I
think -- within the last 6 months about these sorts of things. I believe
it was mostly about contemporary female jazz singers; what I remember most
is Kellye Gray talking about the conscious decision *not* to put her
(white) face on her album cover for fear that she wouldn't be taken
seriously. Vanessa Rubin (a light-skinned black woman) also had horror
stories about parties at which she was told, essentially, that she wasn't
*acting* black enough -- where the complainer's idea of "a real black jazz
singer" was apparently a sort of raunchy blues-belter.
I vaguely remember reading some years ago about CTI's hand-wringing
over keeping Bob James's skin color a secret, and always wondered if
this played into my boss's attitudes at all -- the owner of the Bird is
an African-American bassist who played with James when they were both
students at Michigan. The only person I know well who weighs race
as little as he does when evaluating musicians is a local jazz pianist/
Yale PhD/ ex-Panther.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Genie Baker gba...@umich.edu
gsm
[...]
: >So you've "countered" my argument by drawing conclusions I didn't have,
: >nor didn't intend. Do you have an opinion of your own on this matter. Why
: >not?
: I was just trying to understand how your rants relate to the thread's
: title. They don't, really. I agree with nearly everything you've said
: in this thread--except for the implication that we can't discuss
: this topic without aligning ourselves with the white racists of the world.
I've responded to specific questions and offered counter viewpoints to
those espoused here. If my "rants" don't relate to the thread perhaps
the questions don't either. Your conclusion at the top of this msg don't
relate to the thread--logically my counter doesn't either.
The implication that we can't discuss this without aligning with racists
is a facile non-argument. Once again I didn't say it and it is not my
viewpoint. It would be nice if you proffered your own viewpoint instead
of reinterpreting and mis-characterizing mine.
: In fact, black racism is something I have experienced many times, something
: that disturbs me greatly. I see no reason why it shouldn't be discussed.
: Unfortunately, it doesn't look like you and Ted are going to stop frothing
: long enough to allow an intelligent discussion to develop.
And unfortunately you seem hell bent on discussing the participants in
this debate instead of the topic.
I've experienced racism personally too. But the experiences I've had are
small, rare and anecdotal, not a part of my daily life and not endemic in
our society. As such I hardly find it worthy of mention.
LAURA POLLOCK
> have been an interview (I hope it wasn't plagarized.). Anyway it
> was regarding hiring Bill Evans to play piano in the Kind of Blue
> days. Miles claimed that he took flack from black musicians for
> having a white piano player (and putting a black pianist out of
> work - read Bill Cole's bio of Miles for Bill's take on Evans as
> the effect that he didn't care if Evans was white or purple - he had
> the sound that Miles wanted.
Miles said (about Lee Konitz, not Bill Evans) , "I asked them if they knew
anybody who could play with a tone like Lee's ... I wouldn't care if a cat was
green and had red breath, if he could play."
Miles was criticized for hiring Lee Konitz and Bill Evans and Sonny Rollins
for hiring Jim Hall; on the other hand, Joe Gordon was criticized for playing
with Shelly Manne and Eugene Wright for playing with Brubeck. The list goes
on -- and on.
TornCot
use Ted Thompson's vocabulary. That's like excusing Mussolini because he
didn't kill nearly as many people as Hitler! All racism is bad and we
shouldn't excuse or overlook black racism because its impact on whites is
somewhat limited. Statements by Farrakhan and other black leaders that
Jews controlled the slave trade are "bad." They have no factual evidence
and paint an unfairly negative picture of Jews. While Farrakhan's
statements don't keep Jews from walking the streets or living normal lives
they do spread hatred of Jews as a race. The point isn't whether black
racism is as harmful as white racism. The point is that all racism and all
ignorance should be eliminated.
Dave Krugman
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu
Thank you for thoughtful and inspired response to my criticisms. You are
basically right in your point about mass psychology dictating racism.
>>The point is, how widespread is the failure to recognize white jazz artists,
>>>how much does it affect their professional life, and how do we go about
>>solving the problem, if any. This is what we should be discussing.
:I think you've failed to take into account how much consideration
:of race is a factor, no? Otherwise "faiure to recognize white jazz
:artists" may have nothing to do with racism but instead everything to do
:with this subset being inept or inappropriate--based of course on WHICH
:group of white jazz artists are going unrecognized.
Maybe I assumed too much. This discussion has nothing to do with the
relative ability or performance of any race, white or black. I have yet to
see something that convinces me that there are significant differences, so
in my mind anyway, and in all objectivity, there are none. If we need to
go into that issue, then perhaps we should. White people got just as much
soul as black people, and as far as I can tell they have the same basic
potential for musical expression. Do you disagree?
Now of course there is always the subset of white musicians who feel wronged
who never deserved any kind of favorable treatment anyway, cuz they didn't
have the skills or whatever to succeed. Their problem, certainly. But I'm
sure that this does not accurately represent the whole of the issue. I think
it's a lot more complicated than white people whining again.
:Right now when we discuss the "problem" of discrimination against whites,
:and the "problem" of 'reverse-discrimination" we are discussing political
:campaign issues that have almost nothing to do with our lives and
:everything to do with ideology. Which is essentially all I've said about
:this issue from the beginning.
Now here's where we disagree. You speak with inspiration about how it has
"almost nothing to do with our lives" and for you that may be true. But it
is not necessarily true for white musicians as a group. We are not trying
to solve the problem of racism in general, or racism in the US, or racism
in employment, but specifically racism in music. Except as regards mass
psychology, it has nothing to do with campaign issues. Once we get over
the hurdle of whether we should be talking about it at all (which has been
interesting nonetheless), I think we can get at how widespread it really is,
and how much it affects people's (yes, white people's) lives, and what the
root causes are.
Unfortunately the root causes are exactly what you've been suggested, and
they include the general population as a whole, the "voting public," or
the "average moron on the street," or whatever you want to call it. Maybe
our heightened awareness at the moment is due to the surge of white pride
in the public arena (witness the end of affirmative action in the UC system),
but nonetheless we should at least spend a little time talking about it.
I find the moral attitude of Americans in general pretty repugnant, but I
do my best to ignore and not judge it. This whole thing with the flat
income tax, or whatever they decide on, is a prime example of how popular
it has become to exert power on the minority. But can we please move beyond
the general and get to the specific, in this newsgroup, on this issue?
-Nils
gsm
: In other words, I think we should quit this pointless tangent and decide
: if there really is racism toward white jazz musicians. We are witnessing
: the onslaught of politicism dressed as something benign. Be proactive,
: let's talk about what we think is important and leave the other people to
: discuss what they think is important.
Okie dokie. I think there is not relly racism toward white musicians.
Not enough to warrant a discussion anyway, unless it's on the topic of
why people think it important discuss racism against whites instead of
blacks.
Needless to say I think it important to debunk the concept of
"reverse-discrimination" against whites. Thus, what you consider a
pointless tangent I consider important stuff. Big shock.
: This is my last contribution on this issue.
I'll join you.
Thomas F Brown
>experienced "many times" was in any way comparable to "white racism?"
Of course it was comparable. It was one individual discriminating against
another individual solely on the basis of perceived race. Each individual
instance of racial discrimination is comparable to any other instance.
This is what you and Gerry have difficulty comprehending.
When viewed at the macro level, certainly white racism against blacks
overwhelms black racism. No one has disputed that fact. When viewed
at the micro level, however, there is really very little difference
between black and white racism in this country.
Thomas F Brown
>>
>>When viewed at the macro level, certainly white racism against blacks
>>overwhelms black racism. No one has disputed that fact. When viewed
>>at the micro level, however, there is really very little difference
>>between black and white racism in this country.
>>
>this could be seen as a complete affront to human dignity. but
>in real life it seems a little less serious.
The micro level IS real life to the people involved.
How dare you devalue their experience because it doesn't
fit in with your argument?
>Of course I dont have to tell anyone here that the american music
>industry has a long history racism. Were Goodman, Miller and all
>those other "big band" guys really better jazz musicans than say
>Ellington or Basie? If you went by record sales, publicity etc
>you would have to say they were.
By these criteria Kenny G is the best jazz musician working today.
The other (IMHO) correct answer
>is that their biggest asset was the color of their skin.
Their biggest asset? Absurd. One can deplore historical racism
without stooping to such disrespectful and inaccurate revisions.
>I don't think I'm going out on a limb here when I say that all
>racism is bad. But If you have a problem with "reactionary"
>black musicans practicing discrimination, I suggest working
>alot harder on giving them less to react to.
So I'm responsible for their troubles? This is nuts.
There is no justification for mistreating another
human who has caused you no harm.
John Clayton Foster
>>Now, Tom, tell me. Do you really believe that the "black racism" you
>>experienced "many times" was in any way comparable to "white racism?"
>
>Of course it was comparable. It was one individual discriminating against
>another individual solely on the basis of perceived race. Each individual
>instance of racial discrimination is comparable to any other instance.
>This is what you and Gerry have difficulty comprehending.
>
>overwhelms black racism. No one has disputed that fact. When viewed
>at the micro level, however, there is really very little difference
>between black and white racism in this country.
>
It never ceaces to amaze me the langths that people will go
to defend their arguements. On the "micro level" there is very
little difference between a mouse and an elephant but when
put into the context of the world around us that difference
seems a little more important.
When one compares the effects of mass, systemic raceism against
americans of african descent and the possible isolated incidents
of raceist behavior of black jazz musicans tward white ones,
they absolutely dont compare. Of course on the "micro level"
this could be seen as a complete affront to human dignity. but
in real life it seems a little less serious. Of course, if it is
that serious then we should see that the children of white jazz
musicans should be disproportionatly undernourhed, under educated
and have a shorter life span (that is the one's that diddn't
die of a ridiculously high infant mortality rate).
Of course I dont have to tell anyone here that the american music
industry has a long history racism. Were Goodman, Miller and all
those other "big band" guys really better jazz musicans than say
Ellington or Basie? If you went by record sales, publicity etc
you would have to say they were. The other (IMHO) correct answer
is that their biggest asset was the color of their skin. Let's
not forget black R&B artists in the '50's putting white people
on their album covers so they could be sold as "rock 'n roll."
Keith Richards said the first time he met Muddy Waters, Muddy
was painting the studio.
I don't think I'm going out on a limb here when I say that all
racism is bad. But If you have a problem with "reactionary"
black musicans practicing discrimination, I suggest working
alot harder on giving them less to react to.
John
gsm
: :I think you've failed to take into account how much consideration
: :of race is a factor, no? Otherwise "faiure to recognize white jazz
: :artists" may have nothing to do with racism but instead everything to do
: :with this subset being inept or inappropriate--based of course on WHICH
: :group of white jazz artists are going unrecognized.
: Maybe I assumed too much. This discussion has nothing to do with the
: relative ability or performance of any race, white or black. I have yet to
: see something that convinces me that there are significant differences, so
: in my mind anyway, and in all objectivity, there are none. If we need to
: go into that issue, then perhaps we should. White people got just as much
: soul as black people, and as far as I can tell they have the same basic
: potential for musical expression. Do you disagree?
I do not disagree. When we start talking about how LITTLE soul
unrecognized white and black musicians have it becomes tricky deciding
which among them simply have no talent or focus or decent management or
determination and which are being discriminated against.
: :Right now when we discuss the "problem" of discrimination against whites,
: :and the "problem" of 'reverse-discrimination" we are discussing political
: :campaign issues that have almost nothing to do with our lives and
: :everything to do with ideology. Which is essentially all I've said about
: :this issue from the beginning.
: Now here's where we disagree. You speak with inspiration about how it has
: "almost nothing to do with our lives" and for you that may be true. But it
: is not necessarily true for white musicians as a group.
Are you saying that racism has pertinence in the lives of white musicians
as a group? Provide some non-anecdotal proof please. Even if you
provide sordid tales of injustice I fall back on my "address the problem
in the main" approach which relegates the difficulties of whites in a
white society lower priority than blacks in a white society.
: We are not trying
: to solve the problem of racism in general, or racism in the US, or racism
: in employment, but specifically racism in music. Except as regards mass
: psychology, it has nothing to do with campaign issues.
Racism in music is a subset of racism in general and within the USA,
etc. I find no reason to consider it's rationale vastly different than
that in other businesses or industries.
: Maybe
: our heightened awareness at the moment is due to the surge of white pride
: in the public arena (witness the end of affirmative action in the UC system),
: but nonetheless we should at least spend a little time talking about it.
This is a completely cross-eyed view. The affirmative action changes in
the UC system were propelled by specific candidates for specific PR gain.
It had nothing to do with anybody's "white pride", whatever the heck that
means. It had to do with discarding a system that, in theory, unfairly
doled out preference to minority groups. This never even claimed to be
pro-white in anyway whatsoever, or pride in anything whatsoever. It was
anti-something else.
: I find the moral attitude of Americans in general pretty repugnant, but I
: do my best to ignore and not judge it.
Yeah, I like making sweeping generalizations about large populations
moral and ethical qualities too. But then I try to forgive myself for
judging everyone too.
: This whole thing with the flat
: income tax, or whatever they decide on, is a prime example of how popular
: it has become to exert power on the minority. But can we please move beyond
: the general and get to the specific, in this newsgroup, on this issue?
This "popularity" of imposing the will of the few on the general populace
has been around for a few thousand years. I find nothing faddish in it.
Yes, we can move to the specific a soon as you specify it and discuss it.
Marc Sabatella
> Kellye Gray talking about the conscious decision *not* to put her
> (white) face on her album cover for fear that she wouldn't be taken
> seriously.
Interesting! The ploy may have worked; invariably when I play the album for
someone, or someone checks it out on my recommendation, they ask "is she white
or black", and I have not been able to answer. Her voice - to the extent one
thinks they can tell the difference - is pretty ambiguous, and the only
photograph included is of a woman's back, shot in soft enough light that you
can't really tell for sure (although she looks white to me), and there is no
explicit claim that this is in fact Kellye's back; the photgraph seems included
for artistic reasons more than promotional purposes, and it does not appear on
the front cover. I have long suspected she did this on purpose...
--
Marc Sabatella
--
ma...@fc.hp.com
http://www.fortnet.org/~marc/
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
gsm
: What does it matter if "black racism" is comparable to "white racism" to
Absolutely! Now let's start rectifying it.
Starting, of course, with the white people first. We'll get to the
blacks later.
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu
>What is a "black city"?
Select from the following:
A) A city with a bad industrial pollution problem.
B) A place where all the buildings have been painted black.
C) A place where mostly black people live.
D) None of the above.
I trust you can figure it out.
>My objection is to your use of the term "racism" . "Bigotry", "hate" or
>any of a host of synonyms might be correct. Not racism.
Well, somebody's been reading the dictionary, that's good, but really, does
this add to the discussion? Maybe the problem is institutionalized enough
within baltimore to qualify under the Ted-Thompson rule as racism. Maybe not.
But like a lot of the rest of this debate, a minority of people have clouded
up the issue with time-wasting semantics. This is irrelevant to the basic
issue.
(Sorry, Tom, I know it's not my post he's responding to.)
-Nils
Oleo 16
David Holmes) writes:
>Actually, I think it was the sound of his name that Miles liked.
>This is why another white Bill Evans played saxophone in his band
>and he collaborated with Gil Evans. Miles also liked the sound of
>the name Zawinul.....
THIS IS REDICULOUS!!!! Both Bill Evanses were/are very talented, capable
musicians. The pianist Evans was a very influential figure on a lot a
people I know (no, not just white people; which reminds me, a man once
told me that I probably like Phil Woods because he was a white alto
player, and so was I. Boy, was he shocked when I told him that I didn't
know Woods was white! I had never seen the man, just heard his albums, and
he certainly played as well as Cannonball or Stitt....)
Anyway, I suppose next you will tell me that Miles liked the name John
Scofield. Or Dizzy liked the names Stan Getz, or Arturo Sandoval. Or Joe
Henderson (who cut an album titled IN PURSUIT OF BLACKNESS) liked the name
Chick Corea. Or Thad Jones liked the name Mel Lewis (not a particularly
nice name, just a darn-good musician). Or McCoy Tyner likes the name
Michael Brecker (By the way I can't wait for their collaboration effort).
For people with nice names, all of the above-named white men sure were/are
great improvisers! I have seen lots of quotes by Miles about white
musicians that contradict each other. I guess I should just read his
autobiography to find out in his words.
Anyway, I don't see reverse discrimination as much of a threat to my
livelihood as a musician. Living in Texas probably has something to do
with it, but it doesn't seem to be a problem here for white jazzers to
find work. I also don't see a lot of racism against blacks either. The
afflicted group here seems to predominantly be Hispanic, and even then
most people where I live don't give a wet slap what color you are as long
as you sound good. There are also some very fine Asian and women jazz
musicians here, too. Even the women don't have problems getting jobs
(shoot; one of the best pianists in town is a Japanese woman, and THE best
drummer in town is an anglo woman).
By the way, I listen to some white jazz artists, (A few are Hal Crook,
Phil Woods, Chick Corea, Michael Brecker, Tom Harrell, Stan Getz, Joe
Lovano, Pete Christlieb, Jim Hall, etc.), and while several of them have
been quite influential to me, I really couldn't name one who really
contributed SIGNIFICANTLY (as in introduced major developments) to the
history of the music except for Stan Kenton or Antonio Carlos Jobim (not
really a person most folks would call "white"). I love for anyone to post
some names, but I can't think of any.
Also, simply insisting that preferences against whites in music business
isn't a problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Sure, it exists. It most
certainly exists, and I think that it is not possible for a person of any
ethnic group to understand what problems a person of another ethnic group
experience. Insisting that it is impossible to be racist towards white
people, if a said by a black man, is simply engaging in a stupid game of
"Oh yeah, well my problems are worse than yours" (it works both ways, I
just used an example). Granted, some people have fewer things to worry
about in life, but everybody endures suffering, pain, rejection, and
bigotry sometime in his/her life, regardless of color. I remember reading
in the book TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD (a story with racism at the core of its
message) the phrase: "You never really understand where a fellow's coming
from until you crawl into his skin and walk around for a while".
Some of you shouldn't be so quick to judge and discount others'
experiences with this form of hatred.
I am whole-heartedly pro-choice about the music business. People should
have the CHOICE to play with whoever they want. If Delfeayo Marsalis
refuses to play with a very capable and talented musician because he's
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu
J. David Holmes
>In article <3v0726$r...@access5.digex.net>, jdho...@access5.digex.net (J.
>David Holmes) writes:
>
>>Actually, I think it was the sound of his name that Miles liked.
>>This is why another white Bill Evans played saxophone in his band
>>and he collaborated with Gil Evans. Miles also liked the sound of
>>the name Zawinul.....
>
>THIS IS REDICULOUS!!!! Both Bill Evanses were/are very talented, capable
>musicians.
<clueless rant deleted>
It was a _joke_!
--Dave
R. Lynn Rardin
In a previous article, murp...@pacificrim.net (Joseph murphy) says:
>...Henry Threadgill just released his
>first COlumbia CD after much hoopla, promotion a cover on Downbeat.
>Reliable word is it's sold less than five thousand copies.
Anyone have details on the upcoming Threadgill release on Columbia? Will it
be a Very Very Circus date?
--
-Lynn (rar...@auriga.rose.brandeis.edu)
gsm
: (I lied.)
I said "I'll join you." I lied too. Actually, all you had to say,
was--"Hey, this is obviously a different issue!" :-)
Glenn Lea
> In a previous article, murp...@pacificrim.net (Joseph murphy) says:
>
> >...Henry Threadgill just released his
> >first COlumbia CD after much hoopla, promotion a cover on Downbeat.
> >Reliable word is it's sold less than five thousand copies.
That's respectable for this kind of music (relatively difficult,
nonclassifiable but decidedly non-mainstream, partially improvised music
by a fairly obscure former avant jazz artist). I read an interview with
Mr. Bonandrini, owner of Black Saint/Soul Note, where he said the most
popular albums by his most reknowned artist (David Murray) were in that
range.
--
Glenn Lea
David J. Strauss
: >This is why another white Bill Evans played saxophone in his band
: >and he collaborated with Gil Evans. Miles also liked the sound of
: >the name Zawinul.....
: THIS IS REDICULOUS!!!! Both Bill Evanses were/are very talented, capable
: musicians. The pianist Evans was a very influential figure on a lot a
You know, I really dread seeing that smiley-face thingy, but then I
suppose that it saves some people a lot of aggrivation.....
Joseph murphy
>: problem of racism-toward-white-jazz-musicians. If we spend less time with
>: point is, how widespread is the failure to recognize white jazz artists,
>: how much does it affect their professional life, and how do we go about
>: solving the problem, if any. This is what we should be discussing.
>
>: have observed the behavior of specific black jazz musicians who have a
>: problem with respect for their white peers. How widespread, I don't know.
>: discriminated against (sorry, no quote here, but it was recently posted)
>: are sort of missing the point. Every human knows the down side of a power
>: relationship, regardless of starting point. And in music, even though
>: white people may control the purse strings of record companies and clubs,
>: the relationship of musician to musician is important. And the relationship
>: of critic to musician may be life or death for someone's career. These are
>: the places where change may need to occur.
>
>: Notwithstanding all the other places, of course. But let's try not to be
>: blind to the issues which face musicians every day.
>
>: -Nils
Reading these postings it occurs to me that perhaps this is not about race
as much as it is about property and property owning class issues. Who owns
the music, who has power over its direction? Whoever plays it. To me, Jazz
is more hypertextual than any musical expression and certainly on a par
with computers or any interactive technology. You get the vocabulary and
achieve some mastery over your instrument and you are on line, brother,
as was Buddy Bolden and as is Wynton or Lester Bowie or Bill Frisell.
Questions of ownership also bring up questions of what the property
rights people refer to as, "takings." Did Paul Whiteman owe reparations
to Fletcher Henderson or Stan Getz to Lester Young? Racial divides in
the arts are always exacerbated by questions of ownership. Even a cursory
ready of Lady's bio or August Wilson's "Ma Rainey's Black Bottom" reveals
how it has always been so. When a young (white) pianist was signed to
Columbia two years ago he recorded a highly promoted record that didn't
sell squat. Columbia dumped him. Henry Threadgill just released his
first COlumbia CD after much hoopla, promotion a cover on Downbeat.
Reliable word is it's sold less than five thousand copies. Will Columbia
follow suit with Mr. Threadgill. Don't be too suprised. Keep your eye
on the money- that's where the real inequities are.
joseph murphy
murp...@pacificrim.net
Dave Kaufman
(Glenn Lea) wrote:
> In article <3v8gq2$1...@news.ysu.edu>, at...@yfn.ysu.edu (R. Lynn Rardin)
wrote:
>
> > In a previous article, murp...@pacificrim.net (Joseph murphy) says:
> >
> > >...Henry Threadgill just released his
> > >first COlumbia CD after much hoopla, promotion a cover on Downbeat.
> > >Reliable word is it's sold less than five thousand copies.
>
> That's respectable for this kind of music (relatively difficult,
> nonclassifiable but decidedly non-mainstream, partially improvised music
> by a fairly obscure former avant jazz artist). I read an interview with
> Mr. Bonandrini, owner of Black Saint/Soul Note, where he said the most
> popular albums by his most reknowned artist (David Murray) were in that
> range.
>
> --
> Glenn Lea
I would have to say that's a very disappointing sales figure given all the
press and hype. In addition to the Downbeat cover, there was a feature
article in Musician which reaches a wide audience. Black Saint has
nowhere near the clout that Columbia has. I read in the Musician article
(quote from a Columbia rep) that Columbia was going to promote him as one
of the leading contemporary music composers, and that they were targeting
a crossover audience which included listeners of contemporary classical
and avant-garde/new music/alternative. If I remember correctly, they also
took out a full page ad in Option. Carry the Day isn't his best work, but
you might expect that the Threadgill faithful plus a few newcomers would
yield a much larger sale figure (maybe double). Though I realize his music
isn't exactly easy listening and will never attract a large audience. I
understand that Columbia has signed Threadgill to a multi-album deal. I
can't imagine Threadgill doing an album of standards :-). I would suspect
that Too Much Sugar, which gained him a comparatively high profile (made a
few critics year's best list) sold better. Does anyone know?
Dave K.
Jeffy1ube
> In article <3v8gq2$1...@news.ysu.edu>, at...@yfn.ysu.edu (R. Lynn Rardin)
wrote:
>> In a previous article, murp...@pacificrim.net (Joseph murphy) says:
>
>> >...Henry Threadgill just released his
>> >first COlumbia CD after much hoopla, promotion a cover on Downbeat.
>> >Reliable word is it's sold less than five thousand copies.
> That's respectable for this kind of music (relatively difficult,
> nonclassifiable but decidedly non-mainstream, partially improvised music
> by a fairly obscure former avant jazz artist).
I think it is disappointing. Threadgill did far better than this on
Axiom. One of the advantages of non-mainstream labels is that there are
people who follow the label and buy everything on it. Even a
bizarre-by-most-people's-standards release like Sola ("Chinese Blues") on
Axiom did around triple what Threadgill is doing on Columbia, if the
number quoted above is true.
Also, 100% of the marketing budget at smaller, targeted labels goes
towards artists like Threadgill. Going to mainstream labels seems to help
mainstream artists the most.
Jeff Spirer
je...@internet.net for email
Axiom Web Site: http://www.hyperreal.com/axiom/
Music Over Money
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu
>jacob...@wums.wustl.edu wrote:
>:Now here's where we disagree. You speak with inspiration about how it has
>:"almost nothing to do with our lives" and for you that may be true. But it
>:is not necessarily true for white musicians as a group.
>
>Are you saying that racism has pertinence in the lives of white musicians
>as a group? Provide some non-anecdotal proof please.
That's exactly what I think was the point of this thread, specifically
anecdotal and non-anecdotal proof of racism toward white jazz musicians.
I'm not sure why we need to justify wanting to stick our heads in the ground
(figuratively) based on the fact that we think it is an "unimportant" issue.
There is no scientific study that I am aware of which has addressed the
question, so no one will be able to argue whether or not that is true. I
think we have heard enough "anecdotal evidence" here to suggest that it's
at least worth talking about. Whether it's important, perhaps, is another
issue, but I would guess it's at least as important as the song from the
latest Honda commercial.
>I fall back on my "address the problem
>in the main" approach which relegates the difficulties of whites in a
>white society lower priority than blacks in a white society.
Then fall back on that and bring up some issues. I am a big fan of the
big picture and the main problems, so I see nothing stopping us from talking
about that.
: We are not trying
: to solve the problem of racism in general, or racism in the US, or racism
: in employment, but specifically racism in music. Except as regards mass
: psychology, it has nothing to do with campaign issues.
>Racism in music is a subset of racism in general and within the USA,
>etc. I find no reason to consider it's rationale vastly different than
>that in other businesses or industries.
OK, if you want to generalize everything, then why subscribe to rmb? Why
care about the lives of musicians per se? I think the reason that people
use this argument is that they do not want to discuss the specifics, for
whatever reason not including the one they gave. But that is presumptuous.
What I was trying to say here is that for the people who have been pumped
full of emotion by personal experience, and injustice in general, maybe
considering this a specific intellectual problem might help them cool down.
: Maybe
: our heightened awareness at the moment is due to the surge of white pride
: in the public arena (witness the end of affirmative action in the UC system),
: but nonetheless we should at least spend a little time talking about it.
>This is a completely cross-eyed view. The affirmative action changes in
>the UC system were propelled by specific candidates for specific PR gain.
>It had nothing to do with anybody's "white pride", whatever the heck that
>means. It had to do with discarding a system that, in theory, unfairly
>doled out preference to minority groups. This never even claimed to be
>pro-white in anyway whatsoever, or pride in anything whatsoever. It was
>anti-something else.
Your anti-minority is my pro-white. And as for being cross-eyed, I'll just
ignore the insult. I don't consider myself an expert on much, but having
spent my four years in Berkeley and having devoted a considerable amount of
attention to the problem of affirmative action there, I think I have a grasp
of the situation. Pete Wilson is using the end of affirmative action to
shore up his support among conservative whites, who feel unjustly treated
because their sons and daughters have failed to gain admission to one of the
most prestigious higher educational systems in the world.
Affirmative action is a whole nother problem, but if you want to talk about
it and insist on calling my views cross-eyed, I have to respond. It is
completely unfair to expect two people of separate socioeconomic advantage
(usually but not always translated into separate race) to perform at the
same level in preparing for college. If you are interested in social
justice, you will offer the poor performer a chance at college if there was
a reason of opportunity for that. And if you are a huge bureaucracy, what
better way to pick the underprivileged than by race? I admit it is pretty
unfair in many cases, but on the whole it is a great deal more unfair
to just say to the people who have grown up in the wrong background to
pack it up and not even bother.
The issue of "white pride" is also a big one. It is hard to measure the
current of social progress, but at this moment is is flowing backwards.
And no matter what label you give it (mine is more provocative than most)
the white people in this country are rising to claim their fair share.
The politics are just one reflection of that theme. In general folks seem
to ignore the connection when decisions are made which promote the well-being
of the white majority against the betterment of the non-white minority.
But if you want to ignore it, you certainly have the right.
: I find the moral attitude of Americans in general pretty repugnant, but I
: do my best to ignore and not judge it.
>Yeah, I like making sweeping generalizations about large populations
>moral and ethical qualities too. But then I try to forgive myself for
>judging everyone too.
Dude, take what I said a purely face value and try not to be so snide.
There is a distinction from primary reaction ("repugnant") to final
condemnation ("judgement") in my mind, and it's huge. Forgiveness is
not a real word in my vocabulary. It has nothing to do with it.
>This "popularity" of imposing the will of the few on the general populace
>has been around for a few thousand years. I find nothing faddish in it.
OK, again you are welcome to keep your eyes closed, but I tried to give a
couple examples where social progress has been reversed by a tide of
popular sentiment. If the progress had not been there to begin with, I
don't think it would have been an issue.
>Yes, we can move to the specific a soon as you specify it and discuss it.
Thank you for generously allowing me to specify the subject. Unfortunately
I don't feel like leading this discussion, just interjecting my opinions on
a regular basis and trying to present what I think is right.
The reason this torrent of vomit came out of my keyboard is that I got a
little upset that people who were touting the "political agenda" of those
they disagree with -- used exactly the same strategy to argue against
discussing this issue of racism against white jazz musicians. I felt the
need to step in. Sorry if I pissed anyone off, it's certainly not myu
intention, I just feel strongly about the issue.
-Nils
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu
>Absolutely! Now let's start rectifying it.
>Starting, of course, with the white people first. We'll get to the
>blacks later.
Or, perhaps we could spend all day arguing that white people are whining
again, and not even approach any semblance of justice for anybody.
(Sorry, I had to say that.)
-Nils
gsm
: >Are you saying that racism has pertinence in the lives of white musicians
: >as a group? Provide some non-anecdotal proof please.
: That's exactly what I think was the point of this thread, specifically
: anecdotal and non-anecdotal proof of racism toward white jazz musicians.
Then get to it. I've haven't heard any yet.
: I'm not sure why we need to justify wanting to stick our heads in the ground
: (figuratively) based on the fact that we think it is an "unimportant" issue.
Do you think one should be eager to discuss an unimportant issue?
Avoiding discussing the mundane and addled isn't "sticking one's head in
the sand" as i see it.
: There is no scientific study that I am aware of which has addressed the
: question, so no one will be able to argue whether or not that is true.
Right you are. Since without science it becomes a matter of personal
opinion, I think it doesn't exist, and you think it does. So much for
discussion.
: think we have heard enough "anecdotal evidence" here to suggest that it's
: at least worth talking about. Whether it's important, perhaps, is another
: issue, but I would guess it's at least as important as the song from the
: latest Honda commercial.
Sure it's important, as everybody's personal story is. Why isn't anybody
discussing their stories of reverse discrimination? A dirth of material?
I think so.
: >I fall back on my "address the problem
: >in the main" approach which relegates the difficulties of whites in a
: >white society lower priority than blacks in a white society.
: Then fall back on that and bring up some issues. I am a big fan of the
: big picture and the main problems, so I see nothing stopping us from talking
: about that.
Okay: racism against blacks is endemic in our society. In order to
irradicate it we have to constantly vigilantly attack all the political
and semiotic arguments: that it doesn't exist, that someone how it holds
parity with racism against whites, etc. Do these issues sound familiar?
They're the ones I've stated numerous times. Why do you act as if I
haven't been bringing up issues? Simply because you don't agree with
them?
: >Racism in music is a subset of racism in general and within the USA,
: >etc. I find no reason to consider it's rationale vastly different than
: >that in other businesses or industries.
: OK, if you want to generalize everything, then why subscribe to rmb? Why
: care about the lives of musicians per se?
I'm sure we're both getting tired of my repetition, but I assure you this
is the last time I'll stoop to repeat it. This "generalization" is an
argument against the validity of "reverse discrimination" against
whites. This is the reason that discussing racism against whites is
futile. That's not a generalization. However broad, that is a counter to
your point which is no less broad.
: >The affirmative action changes in
: >the UC system were propelled by specific candidates for specific PR gain.
: >It had nothing to do with anybody's "white pride", whatever the heck that
: >means. It had to do with discarding a system that, in theory, unfairly
: >doled out preference to minority groups. This never even claimed to be
: >pro-white in anyway whatsoever, or pride in anything whatsoever. It was
: >anti-something else.
: I don't consider myself an expert on much, but having
: spent my four years in Berkeley and having devoted a considerable amount of
: attention to the problem of affirmative action there, I think I have a grasp
: of the situation.
The situation has nothing to do with Berkeley, you have no greater or
lesser vantage point than any of us. That's like saying that since you
worked in the New York World Trade Center you somehow no more about Arab
politics than others.
: Pete Wilson is using the end of affirmative action to
: shore up his support among conservative whites, who feel unjustly treated
: because their sons and daughters have failed to gain admission to one of the
: most prestigious higher educational systems in the world.
That doesn't sound pro-white, that sounds anti-special treatment for
others. Precisely my point.
: It is
: completely unfair to expect two people of separate socioeconomic advantage
: (usually but not always translated into separate race) to perform at the
: same level in preparing for college. If you are interested in social
: justice, you will offer the poor performer a chance at college if there was
: a reason of opportunity for that. And if you are a huge bureaucracy, what
: better way to pick the underprivileged than by race? I admit it is pretty
: unfair in many cases, but on the whole it is a great deal more unfair
: to just say to the people who have grown up in the wrong background to
: pack it up and not even bother.
Right. It's not pro-white. It's anti-"poor performaer given a chance".
This is what I said before, though I apologize for looking through the
binoculars backwards as "cross-eyed".
Incidentally I note that rectifying systemic racism and sexism seems not to
have calculated in your perspective on student selection. It should.
: The issue of "white pride" is also a big one. It is hard to measure the
: current of social progress, but at this moment is is flowing backwards.
: And no matter what label you give it (mine is more provocative than most)
: the white people in this country are rising to claim their fair share.
Their fair share is currently about 92%. I'm sure they're angry about not
getting the last 8% fair and square. The recently poorer white population
somehow thinks that they've lost financial advantage to the local ethnic
populations. They are losing jobs to the far east, to robotics to
efficiencies introduced via new technologies. They are losing their
security to a greedy capitalist system. Why aren't they rising up against
them? Why are they rising up against the pittance accorded the
underclass? Because that's where the likes of Pete Wilson want them to
focus. Wilson can't get elected wagin a battle agains the
corporations that foot his campaign bill. Who can he attack with
emotion that doesn't count? The underclasses. It's all their fault.
You see, we NEED crime to keep the capitalis system in place. We NEED
ghettos and we NEED low-paid and undereducated workers. Pay no
attention to the man behind the curtain.
: >This "popularity" of imposing the will of the few on the general populace
: >has been around for a few thousand years. I find nothing faddish in it.
: OK, again you are welcome to keep your eyes closed, but I tried to give a
: couple examples where social progress has been reversed by a tide of
: popular sentiment. If the progress had not been there to begin with, I
: don't think it would have been an issue.
Oh really? Are you discarding the concept of effective propaganda
altogether? Where do you think these "issues" are born? The American
sysm is rife with propaganda. Do you think that the most important issues
to the American populace is really flag-burning and the lack of Jesus in
the schools? If not why don't they concentrate on the issues that bother
them: joblessness, homelessness, lack of future security, inability to buy
a home, those kinds of things? Looks to me like if they are instead
discussing the critical need for a flag-burning amendment, then the
propagandistic nature of our system is working quite effectively.
This is by and large what is happening with the "affirmative action
issue" as I've said countless apparently ineffective ways. It is a
non-issue promulgated by political interests to political ends. The fact
that people are discussing it does not mean that they are concerned so
much with it over issues. Like OJ, they are discussing it because it is
all the news they get. We are being effectively focused AWAY from
self-preservation issues and are being focused on straw-men.
: The reason this torrent of vomit came out of my keyboard is that I got a
: little upset that people who were touting the "political agenda" of those
: they disagree with -- used exactly the same strategy to argue against
: discussing this issue of racism against white jazz musicians.
I don't know what this means. I think that most of this
reverse-discrimination BS is propaganda used as a smoke screen for
political interests. My "exactly the same strategy" is to expose it for
what it is. So what they hell does your preceeding paragraph mean? Do
you think I'm taking out paid poltiical advertisments to run for office
on race instead of economics? If not, I'm not using the same strategy.
---
Nils, I do appreciate your sincere efforts to discuss this issue with
someone with whom you clearly do not agree. You believe that the whites
are being trod upon, that they are rising up to take back their "fair
share", that this "white pride" has some validity and all the rest.
Clearly I do not. I'm sorry if I've been curt or unnecessarily cruel.
Please bear in mind it is the ideas that you are espousing which I find
repugnant and by-and-large racist--not you. I think you are giving me
back most of the basic text of most of the politicians and treading
again in the well-worn footstep of basic US discourse on this topic.
Seems I've clearly offended you for which I apologize.
gsm
: -Nils
Hmm. Seems we have at last two approaches then:
1) Take care of white people's racial dificulties. If necessary take
care of black people's problems later.
2) Rectify nothing at all, with the argument that white people are whining.
Isn't there at least one more possiblity...?
Matt Galloway
: Glen...@avid.com (Glenn Lea) said:
The new Threadgill recording is called Making A Move and is half Very
Very Circus Plus and half music scored for cello, guitar and saxophone.
It's supposed to be out the third week of August.
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu
:jdho...@access5.digex.net (J. David Holmes) wrote:
:>Actually, I think it was the sound of his name that Miles liked.
:>This is why another white Bill Evans played saxophone in his band
:>and he collaborated with Gil Evans. Miles also liked the sound of
:>the name Zawinul.....
:
:THIS IS REDICULOUS!!!! Both Bill Evanses were/are very talented, capable
TIME OUT!!!!
Joke alert. There has been a joke. To all persons: joke alert.
There has been a joke.
Whew.
-Nils
Thomas F Brown
>Hmm. Seems we have at last two approaches then:
>
>1) Take care of white people's racial dificulties. If necessary take
>care of black people's problems later.
>
>2) Rectify nothing at all, with the argument that white people are whining.
Racism is the social problem. Separating it out into white vs. black
racism is interesting for discussion purposes, but both need to be
addressed in order to solve the problem.
My thesis is that racism by black musicians against white musicians
is counterproductive for the perpetrators. This is because in the
jazz business, one's success is based upon having access to as many
people as possible who may be able to give you a job. Cutting certain
people out of your network--for whatever reason--can often diminish
your chances of getting some jobs. I am developing a research
program based in part on this idea, and hope to have hard
evidence within the next year or so.
In wider society, black racism is counter-productive in that
minorities who require some concession from the power structure
need to be careful about antagonizing members of that power structure.
Further, racial politics can preclude options that may be beneficial
to the minority. For example, in DC right now there is black
opposition to privatizing schools on the grounds that a white-owned
company "shouldn't be allowed to experiment on black children".
Now there are many good reasons to oppose school privatization,
but this one seems ridiculous considering that the city is bankrupt
and that its public schools are so bad the courts are shutting them down.
Opposition based solely on race politics doesn't suggest any constructive
alternatives. Just an example--sorry for straying off-topic.