Round Midnight changes
Stefan Ratschan
Just listened to Miles' and Monk's version of Round Midnight and
it seems that they use pretty different chord changes. My
question: Are there any "standard changes" that are played on jam
session etc?
Stefan Ratschan
Michael Weiss/Colette Trousseville
The best changes are the composer's changes. Why can't people learn
Monk's tunes from Monk? I can not understand this. Just because Miles
alters the chord progression and sometimes the melody of Monk's tunes as
well as countless standards, I can't see why so many lazy jazz musicians
just copy what Miles does instead of going to the source. LAZY!!!
Michael Weiss
Joe Castleman
msn...@interactive.net wrote:
>It's truly a disgrace, I agree. There is not a single Monk blues that
>is in any key but Bb, yet because Miles played "Straight, No Chaser"
>in F, that's how everybody plays it. He also played the bridge to
>"Well, You Needn't" wrong, so everybody plays it that way too (Monk's
>version is much more interesting and unexpected).
Not to sound like a heretic, but what disc(s) should I get to start my
Monk collection? I would prefer not to buy a "Best Of" or "Greatest Hits"
type of collection, as I expect I would eventually wind up buying the
individual albums anyway. On the other hand, I believe there are a few
"Complete Recordings" type of sets. Are Mosaic's Blue Note and Black
Lion/Vogue sets still available? How's the Riverside material (there's
another box set)?
--
Joe Castleman (to reply, remove "ANTISPAM" from my address)
Gyrofrog Communications http://www.eden.com/~jcastle
Austin, Texas U.S.A.
"I was always frightened of strange people" --Andy Warhol
Matt Snyder
It's truly a disgrace, I agree. There is not a single Monk blues that
is in any key but Bb, yet because Miles played "Straight, No Chaser"
in F, that's how everybody plays it. He also played the bridge to
"Well, You Needn't" wrong, so everybody plays it that way too (Monk's
version is much more interesting and unexpected).
_____________________________________
Matt Snyder
msn...@interactive.net
http://www.interactive.net/~msnyder
Matt Snyder
>Not to sound like a heretic, but what disc(s) should I get to start my
>Monk collection? I would prefer not to buy a "Best Of" or "Greatest Hits"
>type of collection, as I expect I would eventually wind up buying the
>individual albums anyway. On the other hand, I believe there are a few
>"Complete Recordings" type of sets. Are Mosaic's Blue Note and Black
>Lion/Vogue sets still available? How's the Riverside material (there's
>another box set)?
The Black Lion material is in print, with more available than was
originally on the Mosaic set, I believe. It's called "The London
Collection." There is also a complete Blue Note (on Blue Note, the
Mosaic is long out of print) set which includes the Five Spot
recording with Coltrane. The Riverside stuff (my personal favorite)
is in a 15-disc box, worth every penny you spend. Get it. Live it.
Mark Eisenman
Marc Sabatella wrote:
Everyone seems to have their own variations, but the most common would
> probably be the Real Book changes, which are significantly different
> from the original.
Yes, they are probably the most far removed from the flavor of the original. I wouldn't even consider those
changes. I have to agree with Michael Weiss's post.
Although, once the original changes are in your head it's not bad to consider some variations.
I'd like to know what people think the chord change on beat 3 of bar one is before they start with
variations however. Any takers?
Respectfully,
Mark
--
please visit
http://www.yorku.ca/faculty/academic/eisenman/default.html
MARK EISENMAN
276 WILLOW AVE. TOR. ONT.
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PHONE: 416-694-6688
FAX: 416-690-0587
e-mail: eise...@yorku.ca
ClassyLassie
Mark Eisenman <eise...@yorku.ca> wrote:
>Although, once the original changes are in your head it's not bad to consider some variations.
> I'd like to know what people think the chord change on beat 3 of bar one is before they start with
>variations however. Any takers?
>
In Monk's solo version from 1968, on beat 3 of bar 1 (i assume you're
referring to the head not the intro) he plays the melody note-Gb, and
Db in the bass and then an Eb below the Db on beat 4. Sounds like Eb
minor to me, though you could call it Ebmin/Db. (Maybe Monk checked
out the Real Book changes by then.)
If you're talking about the intro, he plays a D with a natural 9 and
the #9 in the melody. Vierd, man.
-Keith
Howard Peirce
Michael Weiss/Colette Trousseville wrote:
> The best changes are the composer's changes. Why can't people learn
> Monk's tunes from Monk? I can not understand this. Just because Miles
> alters the chord progression and sometimes the melody of Monk's tunes as
> well as countless standards, I can't see why so many lazy jazz musicians
> just copy what Miles does instead of going to the source. LAZY!!!
> Michael Weiss
Or maybe creative. Reharmonizing tunes is part of every good musician's
bag of tricks. And Monk's tunes are very idiosyncratic--If you play Monk's
tunes just the way Monk played them, you're liable to sound just like Monk,
which might be fine for repertory jazz, but not for the real creative work.
And if you compare different recordings of Monk playing Round Midnight,
you'll hear Monk altering his own changes.
As far as the blanket statement "The best changes are the composer's
changes," do you really want to hear a Gershwin tune with Gershwin's
changes? Or worse yet, something by Irving Berlin with his changes
(aaaaaack)? There are no "best changes," but as Stefan pointed out, there
are "standard" changes that most musicians know and use, and any number of
variants that are appropriate to different situations.
BTW: I'm not sure about this, but didn't Dizzy record Round Midnight
*before* Monk did? (The oldest version I have is Dizzy's from 1947.) I know
Dizzy wrote the "standard" introduction, not Monk. Knowing how Dizzy worked
harmonically, I imagine his "original" version is significantly different
from Monk's.
HP
Michael Fitzgerald
On Wed, 27 May 1998 19:31:00 -0500, Michael Weiss/Colette Trousseville
>The best changes are the composer's changes. Why can't people learn
>Monk's tunes from Monk? I can not understand this. Just because Miles
>alters the chord progression and sometimes the melody of Monk's tunes as
>well as countless standards, I can't see why so many lazy jazz musicians
>just copy what Miles does instead of going to the source. LAZY!!!
>Michael Weiss
I don't know - certainly the composer's changes are incredibly
important, but if we *always* heeded them, we'd never have those
wonderful re-harmonizations and re-interpretations that great players
have given us.
Like what Coltrane did on "My Favorite Things" or "Body and Soul" - he
more or less re-composed them. Lots of people play these tunes in the
way Coltrane did them - this is not so terrible. Remember, we're
dealing with a music of creative self-expression. The player should
have the freedom to alter these. If the altered version becomes a
standard, that's fine, but we should be aware that it has been
altered. Copying what Miles did is not necessarily a bad thing. But
"When Lights Are Low" does have a beautiful bridge. Maybe Miles didn't
know it or remember it, but we all should learn it. Then if we want to
play it like Miles, that's OK, too.
That being said, I would prefer to see "composer's changes" in the
fake books. Re-compositions are great, but they shouldn't be the
starting point.
Mike
Reg Schwager
Howard Peirce wrote:
>
> As far as the blanket statement "The best changes are the composer's
> changes," do you really want to hear a Gershwin tune with Gershwin's
> changes? Or worse yet, something by Irving Berlin with his changes
> (aaaaaack)? There are no "best changes," but as Stefan pointed out, there
> are "standard" changes that most musicians know and use, and any number of
> variants that are appropriate to different situations.
I think we should distinguish between Broadway and Tin Pan Alley tunes
(standards) that are adapted to jazz, which often need to be
reharmonized to fit the jazz idiom, and tunes composed by jazz
musicians. Personally, I would never dream of reharmonizing, say, a
Benny Golson tune. And hearing Bemsha Swing without Monk's original
changes and bass line (which to me is as at least as important to the
sound of the tune as the melody) makes me cringe.
Jack Woker
Howard Peirce wrote:
>
> BTW: I'm not sure about this, but didn't Dizzy record Round Midnight
> *before* Monk did? (The oldest version I have is Dizzy's from 1947.) I know
> Dizzy wrote the "standard" introduction, not Monk. Knowing how Dizzy worked
> harmonically, I imagine his "original" version is significantly different
> from Monk's.
Dizzy first recorded the tune in February, 1946, for Dial.
Monk first recorded it in November, 1947, for Blue Note.
The absolute first recording of "Round Midnight" was by Cootie Williams,
in August, 1944, for Hit. Cootie's version does not include the famous
intro and coda, apparently introduced by Dizzy.
jack
Mark Eisenman
ClassyLassie wrote:
> Mark Eisenman <eise...@yorku.ca> wrote:
>
> >Although, once the original changes are in your head it's not bad to consider some variations.
> > I'd like to know what people think the chord change on beat 3 of bar one is before they start with
> >variations however. Any takers?
> >
> In Monk's solo version from 1968, on beat 3 of bar 1 (i assume you're
> referring to the head not the intro) he plays the melody note-Gb, and
> Db in the bass and then an Eb below the Db on beat 4. Sounds like Eb
> minor to me,
> -Keith
Yeah,Unfortunately I really meant to ask about BAR 2 BEAT 1! In my haste to form my question I blew it!
I think that's the one of the places very few books seem to get right.
Mark
ClassyLassie
Mark Eisenman <eise...@yorku.ca> wrote:
>ClassyLassie wrote:
>> In Monk's solo version from 1968, on beat 3 of bar 1 (i assume you're
>> referring to the head not the intro) he plays the melody note-Gb, and
>> Db in the bass and then an Eb below the Db on beat 4. Sounds like Eb
>> minor to me,
>
>> -Keith
>
>Yeah,Unfortunately I really meant to ask about BAR 2 BEAT 1! In my haste to form my question I blew it!
>
>I think that's the one of the places very few books seem to get right.
>
>Mark
>
Same recording Bar 2 Beat 1 he implies an A diminished chord.
-Keith
JFR
Michael Weiss/Colette Trousseville wrote:
>
> The best changes are the composer's changes. Why can't people learn
> Monk's tunes from Monk? I can not understand this. Just because Miles
> alters the chord progression and sometimes the melody of Monk's tunes as
> well as countless standards, I can't see why so many lazy jazz musicians
> just copy what Miles does instead of going to the source. LAZY!!!
> Michael Weiss
Maybe they like those interpretations better than the originals? Who
knows for sure, and the differences are not that big of a deal, are
they? At least to me, I could give too poops, I just like playing
either version.
John R>
Mark Eisenman
JFR wrote:
> Michael Weiss/Colette Trousseville wrote:
> >
> > The best changes are the composer's changes. Why can't people learn
> > Monk's tunes from Monk? I can not understand this. Just because Miles
> > alters the chord progression and sometimes the melody of Monk's tunes as
> > well as countless standards, I can't see why so many lazy jazz musicians
> > just copy what Miles does instead of going to the source. LAZY!!!
> > Michael Weiss
>
> Maybe they like those interpretations better than the originals?
That's possible, but I think Mike's got a point here about lazyness.
To often these 'musical' decisions are made out of ignorance.
> Who
> knows for sure, and the differences are not that big of a deal, are
> they?
Yes they are, especially if the person is not familiar with where the
variants are coming from.
Of course we can't always know what the reason is for a certain approach
that's different...hipness or ignorance.
But I can always tell when somebody learned the changes to "Stella" out of
the Real Book.
Bars 13 and 14 are the big tip-off, and sooooo wrong!
Monk tunes are subjected to even more abuse.
mark
--
ClassyLassie
Mark Eisenman <eise...@yorku.ca> wrote:
>
>But I can always tell when somebody learned the changes to "Stella" out of
>the Real Book.
>Bars 13 and 14 are the big tip-off, and sooooo wrong!
So what are the original changes? On the 50 or so versions I have of
the tune every one seems to play F/Bb/A-/D7 on bars 13-16 or some
variant of that. Also where would one find the original version of
Stella?
-Keith
Mark Eisenman
ClassyLassie wrote:
> F/Bb/A-/D7 on bars 13-16 or some
> variant of that.
Yes, bar 13 is an F chord, it's bar 14 that is wrong in the real book. It
says, E min7b5 A7 and it should be more like your changes.I kind of like G7
for 2 beats then C7 for two beats with a Bb in the bass for beat 4., leading
to the Aminb5 in bar 15.
Another variation for bar 14 is
Bmin7b5 for two beats followed by Bbdimmaj7 for two.
>
> Also where would one find the original version of
> Stella?\
> Good question. Maybe a published songbook "Like The Victor Young songbook"
Of course I'm not sure that exists, Or a good music store that sells sheet
music.
Mark
Howard Peirce
ClassyLassie wrote:
> Also where would one find the original version of
> Stella?
> -Keith
I don't know about the score, which is probably available somewhere, but the
original version of "Stella by Starlight" was heard in low-key 1950s British
horror movie (!) called "The Uninvited." Ray Milland plays a composer with
writer's block who rents a haunted manor for the summer. There's some spooky
business, and a subplot where a falls in love with a village girl named
Stella. After more ghostly encounters, he sits at the piano thinking of his
new love, and plinks out Bb-A----, G-A-Bb-F----. His writer's block cured, he
and Stella exorcise the ghost, and he finishes his new "symphonic tone poem."
At the end of the movie, he turns on the radio to the classical station and
"they're playing his song." It's actually a pretty enjoyable movie, and
genuinely creepy in places.
[I'm no movie expert. I just wanted to watch an old movie one lazy Sunday, and
this was on cable. About halfway through the movie, he plays the opening notes
of Stella, and I was beside myself.]
The treatment in the movie is "ersatz classical," and the harmonic language is
derived mostly from standard late-Romantic gestures--sort of David
Raksin/Bernard Hermann-esque--so in a sense, there aren't really original
"changes" at all.
The "song" version was most likely derived from the score by some hack, and
used to promote the movie, but if anybody knows otherwise I'd like to know.
HP
Jack Woker
Howard Peirce wrote:
>
> ClassyLassie wrote:
>
> > Also where would one find the original version of
> > Stella?
> > -Keith
>
> I don't know about the score, which is probably available somewhere, but the
> original version of "Stella by Starlight" was heard in low-key 1950s British
> horror movie (!) called "The Uninvited."
> used to promote the movie, but if anybody knows otherwise I'd like to know.
The song was written by Victor Young, who is not "some hack". Ther film
was released in 1944, and indeed it was in this film that the song was
introduced.
jack
Keith Myath
> Yes, bar 13 is an F chord, it's bar 14 that is wrong in the real book. It
> says, E min7b5 A7 and it should be more like your changes.I kind of like G7
> for 2 beats then C7 for two beats with a Bb in the bass for beat 4., leading
> to the Aminb5 in bar 15.
> Another variation for bar 14 is
>
> Bmin7b5 for two beats followed by Bbdimmaj7 for two.
Wrong...(?) (maybe)but they are more interesting than the options you gave.
Keith
Kenny Danielson
OK, so what is the first chord? I've seen it several ways and I play my
preference but what is the original?
Thanks,
Kenny Danielson at Lake Tahoe
<ken...@worldnet.att.net>
<http://home.att.net/~kendan/>
Jack Woker wrote in message <35759A...@ix.netcom.com>...
Marc Sabatella
I don't know - did you try the Bm7b5 Bbdim? It's beautiful. So is a
slight variation, G7/B Bbm6. But I agree the Em7b5 A7 is an improvement
over the original. Ditto with the first bar (Em7b5-A7 rather than
Bbdim), at least when it comes to jazz improvisation. These are the
sorts of alterations that have been done by jazz musicians since long
before the Real Book.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
"The Outside Shore"
A Jazz Improvisation Primer, Scores, Sounds, & More:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Howard Peirce
Jack Woker wrote:
> The song was written by Victor Young, who is not "some hack". Ther film
> was released in 1944, and indeed it was in this film that the song was
> introduced.
Allow me to clarify: Victor Young is certainly no hack, but he _composed_ the
theme music and underscore for the movie. What I meant by the "song" version was
the original published lead sheet/sheet music *derived* from the score and used
to promote the movie. There are two different versions we're talking about here:
* An original composition, meant for use in the film, either written in full
score, or written as a sketch score and given to an orchestrator to finish
up--this would have consisted of fragments timed to fit the action onscreen, and
spread out over different parts of the film. I don't think you actually hear the
"song" all the way through, unless it's over the closing credits, and even then
there are various transitions and other devices woven through the collection of
themes developed orchestrally.
* A piece of sheet music, probably for piano and voice, with chord symbols, and
sold as sheet music or used as the basis for arrangements for airplay. I don't
recall any lyrics in the film version, so these were probably added at the same
time. It would have been highly atypical if Mr. Young had arranged the commercial
sheet music. If I were the luckless drone whose job it was to take complex,
wonderful orchestral music and reduce it to sheet music, I would gladly call
myself a hack and hustle like mad to get that big break into orchestration.
[I once tried to make a lead sheet of the Mel Brooks song "High Anxiety" by
transcribing it off the video. Seemed straightforward enough, but the movie
version had these extra bars of transition, and like two key changes--I had to
significantly rework what I heard to get a lead sheet out of it. And trying to
get hip changes out of the orchestral version was too scary.]
Sorry if I got the date of the film wrong--I was just guessing. The print I saw
was really cleaned up, and looked too "new" to be of wartime vintage.
HP
Gary Milliken
>> Also where would one find the original version of Stella?
>
>> Good question. Maybe a published songbook "Like The Victor Young songbook"
>
>Of course I'm not sure that exists, Or a good music store that sells sheet
>music.
Unfortunately, published sheet music (as opposed to hand-written fake books)
is no guarantee of accuracy. I've often been appalled at what I found in
so-called "official" published versions of familiar tunes, and not just of
popular/rock composers but even of well-established sophisticated song
writers too (I have yet to see a version of "Desafinado" that gets the
melody right -- it's dead wrong in the "Jobim Anthology" published by
Hal Leonard).
To return to a point earlier made, the final arbiter of what you play
needs to be your ear.
GM
Kenny Danielson
On my lead sheet there is Em7b5 which doesn't work. I have asked others and
out of three different replies decided that the Bb dim sounded best. Thanks
for the confirmation, Keith.
Kenny Danielson at Lake Tahoe
<ken...@worldnet.att.net>
<http://home.att.net/~kendan/>
ClassyLassie wrote in message <357606ff...@news.mindspring.com>...
>"Kenny Danielson" <ken...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>>OK, so what is the first chord? I've seen it several ways and I play my
>>preference but what is the original?
>>
>From what I've heard the original first chord was Bbdim/maj7. (Which,
>of course is the same as A7b9/Bb, hence...A7, hence .............
>E-7b5- A7.....so what's the big deal?)
>
>-Keith
ClassyLassie
Mark Eisenman <eise...@yorku.ca> wrote:
>ClassyLassie wrote:
>
>> F/Bb/A-/D7 on bars 13-16 or some
>> variant of that.
>
>Yes, bar 13 is an F chord, it's bar 14 that is wrong in the real book. It
>says, E min7b5 A7 and it should be more like your changes.I kind of like G7
>for 2 beats then C7 for two beats with a Bb in the bass for beat 4., leading
>to the Aminb5 in bar 15.
>Another variation for bar 14 is
>
>Bmin7b5 for two beats followed by Bbdimmaj7 for two.
>
Sure, there are a million ways to go I-IV-III-VI. I guess my point is
I don't think those particular changes are so foul. Basically, if the
person can't hear or figure out that you've basically got an
F/passingchord/ii/v/G for those bars, chances are they won't be
playing much anyway. My feeling is that the real book has peculiar
changes but if you have a decent knowledge of jazz, you can easily
tell what the main chords are. The problem comes with beginners
reading the tunes right out of the book with out knowing whats going
on, and in that case, if the book had only the 'correct' changes, the
beginner wouldn't sound much better. Sure it can be a little
misleading for beginners (is it intended for beginners??) but I like
to take a look from time to time just to see some different changes
then the ones i hear on the album.
-keith
ClassyLassie
Mark Eisenman
Keith Wrote
> From what I've heard the original first chord was Bbdim/maj7. (Which,
> >of course is the same as A7b9/Bb, hence...A7, hence .............
> >E-7b5- A7.....so what's the big deal?)
> >
> >-Keith
The "big deal" is good root motion versus no root motion or bad root motion.
I think that's essential to making these kinds of distinctions between similiar
functioning chords.
Most bass players would prefer changes that are more conducive to playing a
good bass line.
I would too, as a piano player.
Of course if your only thinking about scale choices for blowing, Bbdim is like
A7b9.
Mark
--
Fathom
Hey you guys, you confused the heck out of me--I tried to figure out how
these chords fit into the Round Midnight chart, and they didn't. :-)
How about updating the thread title?
In article <NOSPAM-0406...@p051.mas.euronet.nl>,
NOS...@nowhere.edu (Sander Tekelenburg) wrote:
> In article <35751DA7...@yorku.ca>, eise...@yorku.ca wrote:
>
> > ClassyLassie wrote:
> >
> > > F/Bb/A-/D7 on bars 13-16 or some
> > > variant of that.
> >
> > Yes, bar 13 is an F chord, it's bar 14 that is wrong in the real book. It
> > says, E min7b5 A7 and it should be more like your changes.
>
> I agree that A7 seems a bit out of place there. Although in itself,
> substituting Bbmaj with Emin7/b5 makes sense (depending on the melody tone
> of course), and from there it's 'just be-bop' to turn that into a II-V7 by
> adding A7. But since the tune as a whole isn't very 'be-bop' I'd consider
> it 'out of context' here.
>
> > I kind of like G7
>
> There's already a g in the melody at that point. I'd at least pick a
> different bassnote then (like Marc Sabatella's suggestion to use G7/B).
>
> Then still, going from Fmajor to G7 here doesn't make sense to my ears. At
> least not in functionality, since C isn't a tonal centre there. It also
> doesn't fit the harmonic rhythm.
> I'd then prefer Bm7/b5 (provided you take it to Bb or a derivative
> there-off) instead of G7 there. It's almost the exact same sound, but you
> avoid doubling the melody tone in the bass + you have a logically
> descending bassline. And, coming from F, your harmonic rhythm stays intact
> too.
>
> As to descending basslines - how about (bar 13 through 16):
> F|Bb/E|Eb|D7/b9
> The Eb (derived from Am7/b5) with the d in the melody sounds rather nice IMHO.
>
> --
> Sander Tekelenburg, <URL:http://www.euronet.nl/%7Etekelenb/>
> 'From'-header is invalid. Use Rot 13 on <grxr...@rhebarg.ay>
--
Respond by e-mail to aayoung @ sonic . net (remove spaces)
8 8 8 8 8 8 8
These opinions are not my own--I am channeling them from the Higher
Realms. Disagree at your peril. :-)
Fathom
In article <3575ABEE...@sdrc.com>, Howard Peirce
Well articulated, Howard. :-)
Isn't this the same sequence of composition that "Green Dolphin Street"
and "Laura" went through?
I wonder how many other great standards got to us this way--with the
original composer really having little to do with the "song" in the form
we know it....?
Howard Peirce
Fathom wrote:
> In article <3575ABEE...@sdrc.com>, Howard Peirce
> <howard...@sdrc.com> wrote:
>
> > Allow me to clarify: <snip: me articulating well>
>
> Well articulated, Howard. :-)
>
> Isn't this the same sequence of composition that "Green Dolphin Street"
> and "Laura" went through?
>
> I wonder how many other great standards got to us this way--with the
> original composer really having little to do with the "song" in the form
> we know it....?
"Gone with the Wind" comes to mind. What about "Invitation"? There've been some
great jazz versions of Spartacus, too, and Exodus.
I also hear a related phenomenon in some of Duke Ellington's music, and although
I've read a good deal about his music, I'm not sure how this worked. But if you
listen to original versions of "Never No Lament" and "Concerto for Cootie," these
are undoubtedly *compositions,* with unusual phrasing, tone colors and harmonic
devices built in, etc. A few years later, we get "Don't Get Around Much Anymore"
and "Do Nothing 'Til You Hear from Me," which have now been "songified": there are
lyrics added, the form has been regulated to 32-bar AABA, and the band is
essentially playing an arrangement, rather than a composition (a subtle distinction
maybe, and I may be overdoing it).
In Ellington's case, though, I'd have to imagine that Strayhorn or Ellington
himself played a role in the transformation.
HP
Hal Vickery
> In article <3575ABEE...@sdrc.com>, Howard Peirce
> <howard...@sdrc.com> wrote:
> I wonder how many other great standards got to us this way--with the
> original composer really having little to do with the "song" in the form
> we know it....?
"Smile" (from Madern Times) by Charles Chaplin comes to mind.
nsmf
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <35751DA7...@yorku.ca> eise...@yorku.ca writes:
>ClassyLassie wrote:
>
>> F/Bb/A-/D7 on bars 13-16 or some
>> variant of that.
>
>Yes, bar 13 is an F chord, it's bar 14 that is wrong in the real book. It
>says, E min7b5 A7 and it should be more like your changes.
I agree that the Bb7 gives you a more interesting bass line moving
to the Amin than the A7 does. But still, the RB changes don't sound
"wrong". Nothing clashes. The harmonies move logically, according
to common patterns found in that style. They're just not as good
as some possible alternatives.
>> Also where would one find the original version of
>> Stella?
>
>> Good question. Maybe a published songbook "Like The Victor Young songbook"
I'm not sure that Victor's changes would be any better than
the RB's. He was a violinist, and great with melody. But he
had people to help him out with his orchestrations, as
do most film composers. Also, even most jazz musicians were
not terribly hip harmonically back then, at least by today's
standards.
ClassyLassie
NOS...@nowhere.edu (Sander Tekelenburg) wrote:
>As to descending basslines - how about (bar 13 through 16):
>F|Bb/E|Eb|D7/b9
>The Eb (derived from Am7/b5) with the d in the melody sounds rather nice IMHO.
>
>
The Miles group usually went F/E7/Eb7/D7, many ways to get from I to
II.
-keith
JFR
Mark Eisenman wrote:
>
> JFR wrote:
>
> > Michael Weiss/Colette Trousseville wrote:
> > >
> > > The best changes are the composer's changes. Why can't people learn
> > > Monk's tunes from Monk? I can not understand this. Just because Miles
> > > alters the chord progression and sometimes the melody of Monk's tunes as
> > > well as countless standards, I can't see why so many lazy jazz musicians
> > > just copy what Miles does instead of going to the source. LAZY!!!
> > > Michael Weiss
> >
> > Maybe they like those interpretations better than the originals?
>
> That's possible, but I think Mike's got a point here about lazyness.
> To often these 'musical' decisions are made out of ignorance.
>
> > Who
> > knows for sure, and the differences are not that big of a deal, are
> > they?
>
> Yes they are, especially if the person is not familiar with where the
> variants are coming from.
> Of course we can't always know what the reason is for a certain approach
> that's different...hipness or ignorance.
> the Real Book.
> Bars 13 and 14 are the big tip-off, and sooooo wrong!
>
> mark
>
> please visit
> http://www.yorku.ca/faculty/academic/eisenman/default.html
>
> MARK EISENMAN
> 276 WILLOW AVE. TOR. ONT.
> CANADA M4E-3K7
> PHONE: 416-694-6688
> FAX: 416-690-0587
> e-mail: eise...@yorku.ca
OK, I see your point. Why not blame it on the Monk Estate then? They
apparently will not publish a collection of all of his music, due to
some ongoing argument/rift. So, instead, most of us will learn the
"wrong" changes.
John >R
Larry Lewicki
In the "for what it's worth category", years ago when I played more
guitar I bought a book of Joe Diorio solos for guitar called fusion.
The changes for the solos are based on standards (Blue Bossa, Stella,
All the Things..., Summertime etc.)
In Joe's version of Stella he uses the familiar |F |Em7b5 A7alt| Am7b7....
Additionally - looking at Mehegan's piano series from years ago he
shows the changes for Stella (vol 1) as being Em7b5 A7...
I do like Mark Eisenmann's descending bass line (Bdim Bbdim) alot
and need to go and listen to some of the Miles versions that I love
again in that section.
Larry
In article <6l69gp$e...@news.jhu.edu>, tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu () writes:
<:>
<:>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Larry Lewicki | National Semiconductor |Opinions are mine and in *NO* |
*l...@galaxy.nsc.com | Santa Clara, CA |way represent National Semi. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JFR
Mark Eisenman wrote:
>
> Keith Wrote
>
> > From what I've heard the original first chord was Bbdim/maj7. (Which,
> > >of course is the same as A7b9/Bb, hence...A7, hence .............
> > >E-7b5- A7.....so what's the big deal?)
> > >
> > >-Keith
>
> The "big deal" is good root motion versus no root motion or bad root motion.
> I think that's essential to making these kinds of distinctions between similiar
> functioning chords.
> Most bass players would prefer changes that are more conducive to playing a
> good bass line.
> I would too, as a piano player.
>
> Of course if your only thinking about scale choices for blowing, Bbdim is like
> A7b9.
>
> Mark
>
> please visit
> http://www.yorku.ca/faculty/academic/eisenman/default.html
>
> MARK EISENMAN
> 276 WILLOW AVE. TOR. ONT.
> CANADA M4E-3K7
> PHONE: 416-694-6688
> FAX: 416-690-0587
> e-mail: eise...@yorku.ca
There's no big deal. Good players could interpret things like "good
root movement" via subs anyways. This Real Book inaccuracy thing is
pretty inaccurate in it's own way. Most of the gripes turn out to be
"big deals" like this one, which to most people are minor points.
Granted there are some big errors but these are few and far between the
little ones like this big deal.
John R>