To Wynton Marsalis
DiscFild
become a tuxedoed curator, a most stolid and staid square, bodyguard of a
musical corpse- artistically barren, terminally paranoid, with a crimp in
your neck from looking backwards as the shades of the truly great nip at
your heels.
Imagine if Miles had had the weight of history bearing down on his
shoulders when he went in to record "Kind of Blue." We might have ended up
with one of Wynton's insipid Ellington in a blender suites. What if Louis
was an "educator" and a statesman, like Mr. Marsalis. Think we'd have the
Hot Five recordings? Those who can't move art forward, judge and
condescend. Wynton is the Andy Rooney of jazz.
Frank Feldman
Disc...@aol.com
Eric Thomas
writes:
To Mr. Frank Feldman,
Cheers for you! You have finally put a "young upstart" in his
place. Wynton obviously can't compare to Davis or Armstrong, based on
your assessment of him.
I'd like to be informed though, on who are the "heavy-weights" of
today. I suppose that each and every one of them must be an innovator.
They all should be developing in a new direction that makes them each
individually unique, I guess.
The work I've heard Wynton Marsalis do "blew me away", until now.
I used to be impressed with his interpretations of the "Jazz classics"
and the "Symphonic classics" of old. Maybe my music education and
tastes in music need to be re-evaluated.
Mr. Marsalis' music education evidently does not "qualify" him to
be "informative" to the listening audiences either. Someone please tell
me who is qualified? I suppose they all belong to the aforementioned
"heavy-weights".
Also, Gershwin, Stokowsky, Copeland, et al, must have been self
appointed too. Most of what they did musically, had absolutely nothing
to do with inventing new directions. They only interpreted music (both
symphonic and jazz) that had already been done in the past. I did enjoy
them so. Oh well, I think I'd better get busy correcting the error of
my ways.
Thanks(?) for the enlightenment on the Andy Rooney of jazz. :-D
Regards,
Eric
Steve Robinson
On 21 May 1995, DiscFild wrote:
> Thy holiness, thou self-appointed messiah, guardian of truth, thou hast
> become a tuxedoed curator, a most stolid and staid square, bodyguard of a
> musical corpse- artistically barren, terminally paranoid, with a crimp in
> your neck from looking backwards as the shades of the truly great nip at
> your heels.
> Imagine if Miles had had the weight of history bearing down on his
> shoulders when he went in to record "Kind of Blue." We might have ended up
> with one of Wynton's insipid Ellington in a blender suites. What if Louis
> was an "educator" and a statesman, like Mr. Marsalis. Think we'd have the
> Hot Five recordings? Those who can't move art forward, judge and
> condescend. Wynton is the Andy Rooney of jazz.
> Frank Feldman
> Disc...@aol.com
>
>
Reading your post, Frank, the first response that came to mind was
"Lighten up." Wynton is not the Andy Rooney of jazz, but if this piece
is any indication, you probably are.
By the way, Louis WAS a statesman (didn't he do a number of State
Department sponsored tours as a "goodwill ambassador?"), but not at the
time he was doing the Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings. As for Miles,
if we are to believe your preceding post called "Forget Bitches Brew...,"
he might have been better off if he HAD had some history bearing down on him.
Steve Robinson
Seattle, WA
stev...@u.washington.edu
Steve Robinson
On Thu, 25 May 1995, Susan Dodge wrote:
> Excuse me for dissenting but you two are absolutely wrong, IMHO. Wynton Marsalis is a self-righteous prig and I'm glad somebody else agrees with me.
> Carry On,
> Susan
>
>
Which "two?" What's wrong? Dissenting is OK, but it would be nice to
know about what you are dissenting more specifically.
Steve
Amos Omondi
Susan Dodge <sdo...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>Excuse me for dissenting but you two are absolutely wrong, IMHO. Wynton Marsalis is a self-righteous prig and I'm glad somebody else agrees with me.
>Carry On,
>Susan
Wynton's biggest problem seems to be that he gets a lot of media
attention, wins lots of awards, sells a lot of jazz, makes good
music, and doesn't suffer fools gladly. People have to understand
that this is a lot of years after Pops, a lot of years of Miles,
and it is high time people stopped expecting their jazzman to be
the grinning, i-like-everyone type. We should stop hating Wynton
just because he doesn't grin all the time and says so whenever the
Emperor comes out naked.
Susan Dodge
Suzi
Wynton Marsalis is a self-righteous prig and I'm glad somebody else
agrees with me.
> Carry On,
> Susan
Amen, Sister!
......Suzi
John
: Wynton's biggest problem seems to be that he gets a lot of media
: attention, wins lots of awards, sells a lot of jazz,
So? So far you're describing lots of people, including Kenny G.
: music, and doesn't suffer fools gladly. People have to understand
: that this is a lot of years after Pops, a lot of years of Miles,
: and it is high time people stopped expecting their jazzman to be
: the grinning, i-like-everyone type.
Who's expecting that? Did anyone here criticize Charlie Parker because he
didn't grin and like everyone? Or Mingus? Or Monk? Or even Duke?
We should stop hating Wynton
: just because he doesn't grin all the time and says so whenever the
: Emperor comes out naked.
Wynton is the Emperor. He talks about all this classical foundation he has,
but he can't develop a melody in even the most rudimentary way any "classical
musician" can. He talks about how all he did when he was younger, and all
the kids do today, is play scales in different keys, with no conception of
the content of the melody one is improvising upon, but listen to so much
of his music and it's scales in different keys. He doesn't build solos
with the architecture of an Armstrong or the textures of Duke, or the
harmonic adventurousness of a Mingus or a Dolphy. If he spent as much time
really getting to understand their music as he does preaching about it on
a pulpit he'd be a much better musician.
On a PBS documentary once he showed a classical music student the "proper"
way to play the last movement of a classical trumpet concerto. He hummed
to the student the "wrong" way to approach the movement and then explaiend
why, and everything he said was quite correct. Trouble is, when you listen
to Wynton's own CBS recording of that concerto, he does the very same things.
He's a mediocre classical musician at best, yet he has the audacity to say
"classical music is just more music. Classical musicians are mostly
mediocre and a handful are excellent." When he's achieved the technique of a
Hakan Hardenberger or a Maurice Andre or a Crispin Steele Perkins, maybe
he can say that. He's nowhere close.
On the jazz front, what compositions has he written that can compare favorably
to The Shoes of the Fisherman's Wife, Reincarnation of a Lovebird, Black
Saint and Sinner Lady, Solitude, Ad Lib on Nipon, Black and Tan Fantasy,
Misterioso, Criss-Cross, Brilliant Corners, Lonely Woman, etc., etc?
Wynton talks a good game, but when you cut through the hot air he's notthing
but an admittedly technically-gifted jazz trumpet player with a foundation
in post 50s bop, who thinks he has a thorough grounding in everything
and who has a very big mouth.
John
Amos Omondi
Give up John. "Jungle nights" at the Cotton Club are a long time ago; these
days, the Wyntons are what you will get.
cor...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
In article <3qbbc8$c...@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>, zo...@astro.ocis.temple.edu
(John) writes:
> Amos Omondi (Amos....@comp.vuw.ac.nz) wrote:
(edit)
> : We should stop hating Wynton
> : Emperor comes out naked.
>
> Wynton is the Emperor. He talks about all this classical foundation he has,
> but he can't develop a melody in even the most rudimentary way any "classical
> musician" can.
I'm not sure what you mean by "develop a melody," but if you're talking
about improvising new melodic lines on the basis of an older one, I find this
difficult to accept. I've known several "classical musicians" who have
expressed awe at the improvisations of even workaday jazz musicians, and so if
you're saying that just any "classical" performer (or any real one, I guess)
can improvise better than Marsalis, I think you're talking through your hat.
> He talks about how all he did when he was younger, and all
> the kids do today, is play scales in different keys, with no conception of
> the content of the melody one is improvising upon, but listen to so much
> of his music and it's scales in different keys.
"Just playing scales" seems to be one of the classic empty criticisms of jazz,
up there with "cocktail-lounge pianist" and "not really a jazz musician." I've
read many accounts of contemporary reactions to Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, and
John Coltrane that accused them of playing nothing but scales and arpeggios,
and of having no ability to tell a real musical story. But, of course, what
those people were missing was a new kind of logic, an unfamiliar kind of
language. Don't discount the possibility that you are displaying the same kind
of airy obliviousness here.
(edit)
> He's a mediocre classical musician at best, yet he has the audacity to say
> "classical music is just more music. Classical musicians are mostly
> mediocre and a handful are excellent." When he's achieved the technique of a
> Hakan Hardenberger or a Maurice Andre or a Crispin Steele Perkins, maybe
> he can say that. He's nowhere close.
I guess I could understand this response if WM had said "a handful, like me,
are excellent," but there is nothing in what you quote to stop the person who
hears it from lumping WM himself into the "mediocre" category, and thus
there is no expression of arrogance here to go ballistic about. Unless, that
is, you think that the very claim that the majority of classical musicians
are mediocre is insufferably arrogant. Is that it? Why do you think so? Do
you have to be a greater musician than someone else to criticize her or him as
mediocre? May we infer from this that you are a greater musician than
Marsalis? If so, good luck in getting the recognition you deserve. And don't
ever criticize yourself as mediocre, or you'll be in serious logical trouble.
(By the way, haven't I heard that Andre admires Marsalis a lot? I thought he
even did a blurb on one of WM's early classical recordings. But I can't swear
to that.)
In any case, of course, Marsalis has said arrogant and foolish things. So have
you and I, John: it's just that we aren't brilliant and famous young black men,
so nobody cares about our foolishness. Lucky us.
>
> On the jazz front, what compositions has he written that can compare favorably
> to The Shoes of the Fisherman's Wife, Reincarnation of a Lovebird, Black
> Saint and Sinner Lady, Solitude, Ad Lib on Nipon, Black and Tan Fantasy,
> Misterioso, Criss-Cross, Brilliant Corners, Lonely Woman, etc., etc?
I notice there's no Charlie Parker on this list. (Unless it's "Ad Lib on
Nipon:" never heard of that.) Maybe this is OK, because Bird's "originals"
were, with exceptions like "Billie's Bounce" or "Now's the Time," pretty thin
reworkings of "Cherokee," "I Got Rhythm," "Out of Nowhere," etc. You might say
that Bird did his significant composition on his feet. But I think you can say
the same of WM, and of most other important jazz musicians.
Harvey
_________________________
Harvey Cormier
Philosophy Dept.
University of Texas at Austin
Bop Cop
>In any case, of course, Marsalis has said arrogant and foolish things. So have
>you and I, John: it's just that we aren't brilliant and famous young black men,
>so nobody cares about our foolishness. Lucky us.
>_________________________
>Harvey Cormier
>Philosophy Dept.
>University of Texas at Austin
You seem to be more than qualified to fend off the Wynton-would-be-asassins.
And you hit a lot of nails on the head, in particular the one I preserved. I
love it. Most of Wyntons unpopularity outside of New York is mainly due to
things other than his artistic aptitude or accomplishments.
Good work.
Bop Cop
John
: Give up John. "Jungle nights" at the Cotton Club are a long time ago; these
: days, the Wyntons are what you will get.
Why must so many people see EVERY GODDAM THING is jazz in race terms???
I don't give a f*** if Wynton is black, white, or purple. Can the damn
racism and start screaming about all exciting music, no matter who
creates it.
John
Tom Storer
said:
<<it is high time people stopped expecting their jazzman to be the
grinning, i-like-everyone type. We should stop hating Wynton just
because he doesn't grin all the time >>
He has a point: in other words, so what if Wynton *is* a
self-righteous prig? There's enough to debate about whether his
music is all it's cracked up to be. Whether or not he's a lovely
human being is a separate matter. Take Miles Davis, for instance:
apparently he too had personality flaws. I'll bet you still listen
to his music, right?
--
"Le jazz, c'est comme les bananes - ca se consomme sur place."
Sartre
Thomas F Brown
>Amos Omondi (Amos....@comp.vuw.ac.nz) wrote:
>
>: days, the Wyntons are what you will get.
>
>Why must so many people see EVERY GODDAM THING is jazz in race terms???
>
>I don't give a f*** if Wynton is black, white, or purple. Can the damn
>racism and start screaming about all exciting music, no matter who
>creates it.
It's not a racist comment. That's what they called it back then.
The origins of the appelation no doubt have racist connotations,
but that's not Amos's fault.
Amos Omondi
John <zo...@astro.ocis.temple.edu> wrote:
>
>Why must so many people see EVERY GODDAM THING is jazz in race terms???
>
It is not just jazz. And the answer is this: that is how America
works. Wynton's predicament was obvious from the day he showed
real talent, and that was way back when.
John
: In article <3qfueo$1...@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> zo...@astro.ocis.temple.edu (John) writes:
: >Amos Omondi (Amos....@comp.vuw.ac.nz) wrote:
: >: Give up John. "Jungle nights" at the Cotton Club are a long time ago; these
: >Why must so many people see EVERY GODDAM THING is jazz in race terms???
: >
: >I don't give a f*** if Wynton is black, white, or purple. Can the damn
: >racism and start screaming about all exciting music, no matter who
: >creates it.
: It's not a racist comment. That's what they called it back then.
: The origins of the appelation no doubt have racist connotations,
: but that's not Amos's fault.
But why drag RACE into the argument??? My feelings about Wynton have nothing
to do with race. I like Charlie Parker, Charlie Mingus, Thelonious Monk,
Duke Ellington, Benny Goodman, John Coltrane, Max Roach, Sonny Rollins....
hardly "smiley grinning types."
J
Bop Cop
>In article <3qfueo$1...@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>,
>John <zo...@astro.ocis.temple.edu> wrote:
>>
>>
>
> works. Wynton's predicament was obvious from the day he showed
> real talent, and that was way back when.
>
>
amen.
Idris
John
: When Susan Dodge said Wynton was self-righteous prig, Amos Omondi
: said:
: <<it is high time people stopped expecting their jazzman to be the
: grinning, i-like-everyone type. We should stop hating Wynton just
: because he doesn't grin all the time >>
: He has a point: in other words, so what if Wynton *is* a
: self-righteous prig? There's enough to debate about whether his
: music is all it's cracked up to be. Whether or not he's a lovely
: human being is a separate matter.
And we are talking about Wynton's music, not his personality, though we
are talking about how certain aspects of that personality interfere with
what *could* be great music-making if he'd get his ego out of the way.
: Take Miles Davis, for instance:
: apparently he too had personality flaws. I'll bet you still listen
: to his music, right?
Right. I rest my case.
John
Bop Cop
>When Susan Dodge said Wynton was self-righteous prig, Amos Omondi
>said:
>
><<it is high time people stopped expecting their jazzman to be the
>grinning, i-like-everyone type. We should stop hating Wynton just
>because he doesn't grin all the time >>
>
>He has a point: in other words, so what if Wynton *is* a
>self-righteous prig? There's enough to debate about whether his
>music is all it's cracked up to be. Whether or not he's a lovely
ahhh, a master of understatement!
>I'll bet you still listen
>to his music, right?
>"Le jazz, c'est comme les bananes - ca se consomme sur place."
>Sartre
(Please translate the above for me. No doubt it's quite a worthy quotation.
Thanks.)
Idris
Susan Dodge
The reason I dislike Wynton has very little to do with how often he grins and
very much to do with the fact that he keeps trying to tell people what is jazz and what isn't and seems to think his definitions should apply for the entire planet. I have always thought of jazz as a music for innovators (and no, I'm not trying to impose this definition on everyone else :)) and his sucking at the nostalgia tit is bad for his musical growth and that of others influenced by him, as well as IMHO, anti the spirit of jazz as I conceive of it.
Just my $.02,
Susan
P.S. Ornette Coleman is one of my all-time faves.....he was of course, well known for his ingratiating personality :)
John
: Excuse me, but I feel it is time to defend myself. Where on earth did Amos get the notion that I expect all jazz musicians to be smiley, grinning types?
Susan: Interest post, but you gotta learn to hit that "return" key at the end
of each line. :)
John
John
: In article <3qiv6f$f...@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz>, Amos....@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Amos Omondi) writes:
: >In article <3qfueo$1...@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>,
: >John <zo...@astro.ocis.temple.edu> wrote:
: >>
: >>Why must so many people see EVERY GODDAM THING is jazz in race terms???
: >>
: >
: > It is not just jazz. And the answer is this: that is how America
: > works. Wynton's predicament was obvious from the day he showed
: > real talent
And what is this "predicament"?
...Or, to put it another way, when Liz Gorrill, a student of Lennie Tristano
and of amazing technical abilities, makes a stunning debut album, I don't
see soldier Stanley Crouch rushing to write liner notes about her "majesty,"
how she's "about continuing the tradition through studying and hard work,"
how "she's the future of this music through her magnificent conception so
pure it silences any doubt that could possibly exist as to this art's
vitality."
Blah-blah-blah...
John
John
: John, I've got to take exception to your statement that Wynton's
: solos are simply scale-based, and aren't "constructed." Wynton is a
: thoughtful, adept, improviser. Listen to his recordings with Art
: Blakey (part. "Ms BC, on "Album of the Year")
Ha! *That's* the album *he* has said is "an example oof him
showing disrespect for tradition" by not playing the music but just scales.
, or his sideman
: recordings with Chico Freemani
Yes, that's a good album. He was on my "A" list then.
, Joe Henderson or Charles Fambrough
: (Dolores Carlo Maria, from "The Proper Angle"), or even his own
: recordings. ALL improvisers make use of scales--it's part of the
: vocabulary. Even Miles used "scales," which is ironic, seeing as how
: he criticized Freddie Hubbard for using them.
I know all composers use scales and I'm not criticizing him specifically
for that. Read my post again.
: As for composition, composing is not a requisite for being a good
: jazz musician. How many Chet Baker tunes can you name? I do
: like some of his compositions from "Black Codes" and "J Mood,"
: but I won't argue that these are destined to be part of the
: "canon."
I like those tunes, too, plus Delfayo's Dilemma, which is even better than
those, I thnk. But when this asshole tells George Russell what he has written
is not jazz, when he (and Stanley) put down Gil Evans...'Excuse me, Wynton,
but when you write a canon like Evans', gimme a call.
: I don't care for Wynton's retro-trad-trend (since "Majesty of the
: Blues"); I also don't care for his revisionist jazz history (there
: WAS good jazz in the 70s! Marsalis did not "save" jazz). But I think
: one should limit the criticism to arguments which can be demonstrated
: and defended, and I think you missed on improvisation and composition
: points.
So show me a correlated chorus, or any sort of well-developed chorus, on
post Black Codes albums. There's one here and there, but when you hear
Cliffie play a blues, or Sonny, two musicians he claims to admire greatly,
and want to emulate and carry on their traditions, and then you hear his
attempts at blues ("Blues" from Black Codes, for example)...what a way he
has to go.
John
Jeff Ivers
<are talking about how certain aspects of that personality interfere with
<what *could* be great music-making if he'd get his ego out of the way.
I'm not crazy about the mans music, don't care about what race he is,
don't agree with all his opinions BUT, I'm glad he's around. I think he's
good for jazz, controversial, articulate and stimulating.
Bop Cop
>Bop Cop (af145!zimd0b) wrote:
>: In article <3qiv6f$f...@st-james.comp.vuw.ac.nz>, Amos....@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Amos Omondi) writes:
>: >In article <3qfueo$1...@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>,
>: >John <zo...@astro.ocis.temple.edu> wrote:
>: >>
>: >>Why must so many people see EVERY GODDAM THING is jazz in race terms???
>: >>
>: >
>: > It is not just jazz. And the answer is this: that is how America
>: > works. Wynton's predicament was obvious from the day he showed
>: > real talent
>
>And what is this "predicament"?
>
>and of amazing technical abilities, makes a stunning debut album, I don't
>see soldier Stanley Crouch rushing to write liner notes about her "majesty,"
>how she's "about continuing the tradition through studying and hard work,"
>how "she's the future of this music through her magnificent conception so
>pure it silences any doubt that could possibly exist as to this art's
>vitality."
>
>Blah-blah-blah...
>
>John
Good point. The b.s. goes both ways, no doubt. But it's still there. It's
the American way.
Idris
John
: <And we are talking about Wynton's music, not his personality, though we
He blocks other people fro getting their works performed, he passes as
truth what are mere opinions, he has a closed mind as to what jazz is...
he's *good* for jazz?
I guess you like time to stand still....
J
John
: >
: >John
: Good point. The b.s. goes both ways, no doubt. But it's still there. It's
: the American way.
: Idris
Would someone give me an EXAMPLE, please? A real life documented one, not
a metaphoric or euphemistic one, and not one that happened 40 years ago.
What's Wynton's awful predicament? Fame? Money? Being held in awe?
Having no one who will call BS when they see it because they might be
pegged racists if they see black musicians in any other light than awe?
As for it being the Amercan way, I guess the French and Brits and Germans
and so on really love Africans. Just ask! Never any racism in those
countries, right?
John
Amos Omondi
John, whereas most readers will think this has nothing to do with Wynton,
it is one of the few instances where I agree with you. Why? Several
reasons: (a) Crouch is the only jazz critic in the world, and everyone
listens to him. (b) Wynton has threatened him with death if he writes
liner notes for anyone else. (c) This gorilla woman offered to pay
Crouch for liner notes, but Wynton bribed him to turn her down, and this
has greatly affected her career. (d) Jazz suffers greatly from the
Wynton-Crouch conspiracy to deny Liz her due. (e) Crouch's refusal to
write about her is responsible for the poor music that Wynton produces.
(f) She is the first real talent in jazz since Jelly Roll. Everyone
knows this, and the Wynton-Crouch position is unforgivable.
We thank you for bringing another Wynton-iniquity to light.
Amos Omondi
John <zo...@astro.ocis.temple.edu> wrote:
>
>I thank you for bringing your stupidity and just plain bullshit beliefs to
>light.
John, Im not going to mince words here. I have to say it:
These are not very kind words.
Amos.
John
I knew it would come to this: I point out specific examples of what I am
talking about, after no one else does same, and I get sarcasm inreply rather
than a point-by-point discussion. It's so much easier to believe the
Romantic view of jazz--there's this big musical civil war going on, and
Wynton is leanding his "army" of soldiers to fight for musical purity, but
the indifferent nasty mostly white society is indifferent to this multi-
million dollar a year genius who is in such a "predicament" he gets an
exclusive contract with the No. 1 label, Columbia, when he's 19 or 20.
I sure feel sorry for him and for all the inequity in the godawful jazz
world where talent just isn't being recognized by anyone at all!
I thank you for bringing your bullshit beliefs to light.
John
William Shaw
: But why drag RACE into the argument??? My feelings about Wynton have nothing
: to do with race. I like Charlie Parker, Charlie Mingus, Thelonious Monk,
: Duke Ellington, Benny Goodman, John Coltrane, Max Roach, Sonny Rollins....
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: hardly "smiley grinning types."
Dude, that is one strange example...
cor...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
(John) writes:
>
> [Marsalis] blocks other people fro getting their works performed, . . .
Do you mean more than that he refuses to provide a space or support for
music he doesn't approve of? When and how has he positively PREVENTED the
performance of someone else's work?
> he passes as truth what are mere opinions, . . .
He doubtless believes his opinions are true. Otherwise they wouldn't be his
opinions, would they? (And I haven't seen "IMHO" peppering your contentious
evaluations of Wynton's playing, either.)
> he has a closed mind as to what jazz is...
He's not exactly the first jazz musician to have strong opinions about what is
and isn't jazz, or good jazz. And in fact he often says self-depreciating
things about his earlier work (as you yourself have pointed out) and about his
relationship to the jazz of the past. In short, he thinks of himself as
learning, and as having a lot to learn. His mind therefore can't be completely
closed, and I have faith that he'll come around eventually on George
Russell and Gil Evans. (By God, he'd better--IMHO.)
> he's *good* for jazz?
>
> I guess you like time to stand still....
>
I think more and more people are becoming skeptical of the idea that newness is
either necessary or sufficient for goodness in music or musical forms. It
really is a bad thing if Marsalis, or anybody else, is actively preventing new
and different kinds of music from being heard, but, as a matter of fact,
I think I can imagine a worse future than one in which the musical world
gets stuck in, oh, let's say, 1958.
Harvey
cor...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
(John) writes:
(edit)
> What's Wynton's awful predicament? Fame? Money? Being held in awe?
> Having no one who will call BS when they see it because they might be
> pegged racists if they see black musicians in any other light than awe?
>
Fame and money are not, of course, the highest achievements for a musician,
especially one who prides himself less on "communicating" and getting masses of
people to boogie than on making some kind of serious artistic contribution.
Wynton surely has lots of anxiety about this, and I suspect this at least
partly explains his tendency to shoot off his mouth.
And add to that anxiety the pressure of representing black American art in the
sometimes very hostile and condescending world of what is traditionally known
as "high" culture. And now add in the vilification of all the young black
folks who have nothing but sneers and contempt for the "old people's music"
Marsalis plays. (This group is getting smaller, thanks in part to WM's
efforts, but it still exists.) Now throw in resentment from the less talented
and successful, and criticism from those in the world of jazz who think
Marsalis is holding up progress.
I'd say all this adds up to a kind of "predicament," though one WM is handling
with a passable amount of style and grace. I think the man is far from perfect
(and, what's more, I think he himself would admit this in a minute), but that
he's still very admirable.
Harvey
PHILPORREC
Do you really think anyone has the power to bribe or brainwash that many
listeners, award committee members and journalists?
While Wynton's attitude may be questioned, can you fault him for his
commitment to education (regardless of whether or not it is restricted to
a
seemingly narrow venue)? What of the artists he has helped?
What law says that artists are required to be self-deprecating and have no
opinions? All of you are having a really easy time expressing yours!!! The
man has set standards just like all of us do everyday - whether it's
religion, ethics, morals, etc. He will live by them and is trying to
convince the rest of the world to do so as well. Wouldn't each of us try
to make a difference for what we think is the best path. We've come to
expect it from our public figures. It seems even country music artists,
who were sworn to say nothing negative against someone else in the
industry upon pain of death, have even started to break this silence and
express their own opinions instead of the party line.
This is really all a mental exercise. We continue to apply objective
values on subjective matters. We are dealing with aesthetics not calculus.
We all have something which sings to us whether it's Marsalis or Gorill.
For the record: I'd take Marsalis over any of the watered down elevator
music the "Wave" stations and other folks are trying to pass off as
"jazz". There should be a new category like "Catatonia" for that stuff.
Unfortunatley, I'm in L.A. and there isn't a hell of a lot to choose from.
Be-bop is really non-existent.
Note: If anyone in the L.A. area sees this and knows of some artists worth
seeing please let me know - I would really appreciate it.
Thank You
Phil
Mike Marano
>
>Jeff Ivers (jeff...@aol.com) wrote:
>: <And we are talking about Wynton's music, not his personality, though we
>: <are talking about how certain aspects of that personality interfere with
>: <what *could* be great music-making if he'd get his ego out of the way.
>
>: I'm not crazy about the mans music, don't care about what race he is,
>: don't agree with all his opinions BUT, I'm glad he's around. I think he's
>: good for jazz, controversial, articulate and stimulating.
>
>truth what are mere opinions, he has a closed mind as to what jazz is...
Okay, John. To use one of your tactics: Give me an example! Whose
performances has he blocked?
>he's *good* for jazz?
>
>I guess you like time to stand still....
>
Hey, John. Have you at least suspended your preconceptions long enough to
pick up the man's book and -=[ read ]=- it?
Peterbwms
Marsalis. Not too shabby. I guess if you don't like Wynton's music,
don't listen, if you don't like what he writes, don't read it. The
current state of jazz in the US is pretty darned good, it could be alot
better, but compared to ten or twenty years ago we're looking pretty good,
and like it or not, Wynton Marsalis has alot to do with it. Personally I
like what he does, I appreciate his music and think his soloing is quite
good. He's a good technician and has a nice compositional style. I
wonder if we would have any of the current crop of 'young lions' if there
was no Wynton Marsalis.
He's gotten alot of bad press for alledged racism at Lincoln Center, I
have no idea if this is true and I really don't care. If he wants to hire
all black men under 32 let him, it is none of my business. Racism is
alive and well in the US and he has every right to hire whom ever he
chooses. African Americans have gotten the short end of the world for so
long, it's good to see that he's trying to make a dent in the imbalanced
world.
Hey, as for Mr Crouch... does he get paid by the word or what? SOmeone
once called his liner notes verbose poo-poo.
Nice chatting with you all
Peter
John Andrew Tachovsky
This article is completely off topic, but I must include it
here anyway. I will be attending the University of Texas at
Austin next year for environmental engineering. I am a
guitarist and a lover of jazz (in all of its beautiful forms),
and I am extremely happy to learn of other jazz lovers in the
Austin area. I will be visiting Austin from June 14-19 to find
a place to live for the coming year. Are there any good shows
in town during these dates? what are the names of some good
clubs/bars to check out? Please write me back at the e-mail
listed below. I'd love to get in touch with other Austonian
jazz lovers and get the low down on whats up in Austin.
Hope to hear from you soon,
J. Andrew Tachovsky
ja...@kelvin.seas.virginia.edu