Monk's Piano Tuning (not
MARK STORY
legends) about why the pianos in all of Monk's recordings are grossly out of
tune? Was it intentional - that is, a product of an artistic philosophy of
his? The reason that this thought occurred to me (besides his general
eccentricity) is that, last spring, during a clinic, Bennie Golson said that
Monk approached him after a club gig and told him that he played "too
perfect." I asked Bennie later about this. Besides being aware of the
situation (with Monk's pianos - who isn't) he said he didn't know, despite
being pretty well acquainted with Monk.
...Mark
***Spokane, WA***
---
* PowerAccess 1.07 Never put off till tomorrow what you can ignore entirely.
Richard F. Parker
: Has anyone heard or read any reliable information (or even entertaining
: legends) about why the pianos in all of Monk's recordings are grossly out of
: tune? Was it intentional - that is, a product of an artistic philosophy of
: his? The reason that this thought occurred to me (besides his general
: eccentricity) is that, last spring, during a clinic, Bennie Golson said that
: Monk approached him after a club gig and told him that he played "too
: perfect." I asked Bennie later about this. Besides being aware of the
: situation (with Monk's pianos - who isn't) he said he didn't know, despite
I'm guessing that it has a lot to do with the general low-budget nature
of many early jazz recordings and the lack of clout these musicians had
in the studio. Remember that many of the "classic" jazz albums from the
50s and 60s were recorded in a few hours in an afternoon between club
dates. This would be unheard of now. Even great musicians didn't
necessarily make tons of money and the recordings helped to supplement. I
think that's why we have so many recordings now available from that
period, and so many recordings with bad pianos, poor miking, and poor
mixing. Many pianists from Monk's era recorded on out-of-tune pianos
with horrible actions.
Along with this we should remember that pianists were at the mercy of the
club owner until the invention of the Fender Rhodes electric piano. Many
keyboard players switched to the Rhodes and other electric keyboards like
the Yamaha electric grand so that they could have some control over the
quality of their instrument on the gig. Cheap club owner were notorious for
not providing in-tune, decent pianos. The rule was more the piano that
was horribly out of tune with missing strings and weird, uneven action.
Cigarette burns on the keys were common. Pianists had to accept these
conditions because there were no alternatives.
From our current perspective, with jazz more popular and top musicians
making impressive money, it may be difficult for us to imagine that there
was so little respect for players that we now revere. Could you imagine
Monk or any of the other great pianists playing on inferior equipment
now? I think Monk's comment to Benny Golson probably referred more to
Monk's own concept of playing: He was always searching within his
limited technique and this resulted in a few "clinkers" now and then.
Monk didn't have flawless technique, but he is an incredible example of
how creativity can beautifully and magically transcend technique.
Richard
William Lavery
writes:
>Has anyone heard or read any reliable information (or even
entertaining
>legends) about why the pianos in all of Monk's recordings are grossly
out of
>tune? Was it intentional - that is, a product of an artistic
philosophy of
SNIP...
>...Mark
>***Spokane, WA***
It never has seemed to me that the pianos were out of tune.
Did I miss something?
--
******************************************************************
Bill Lavery from the Mile-Hi City
wjla...@ix.netcom.com (303) 752-1231 h.
7627...@compuserve.com (303) 340-9358 w.
David Kaatz
>Has anyone heard or read any reliable information (or even entertaining
>legends) about why the pianos in all of Monk's recordings are grossly out of
>tune? Was it intentional - that is, a product of an artistic philosophy of
>his? The reason that this thought occurred to me (besides his general
>eccentricity) is that, last spring, during a clinic, Bennie Golson said that
>Monk approached him after a club gig and told him that he played "too
>perfect." I asked Bennie later about this. Besides being aware of the
>situation (with Monk's pianos - who isn't) he said he didn't know, despite
>being pretty well acquainted with Monk.
Are you serious? I own 5 or 6 Monk albums or CDs, and it has never
even occurred to me while listening that the piano(s) was out of tune.
Certainly he is playing dissonant notes.
DK
Mark S Fraser
> In <5...@troubadour.win.net> mark_...@troubadour.win.net (MARK STORY)
> writes:
>>
> entertaining
>>legends) about why the pianos in all of Monk's recordings are grossly
> out of
>>tune? Was it intentional - that is, a product of an artistic
> philosophy of
>
I heard a lecture on Monk's music when I was about 16-17 yrs old ( I can
remember who gave the lecture) and one of the things I remember from it
was the guy said that Monk always listened for keys that were out of tune
and then favoured them as much as possible. So maybe he just used notes
other pianist would have avoided.
--
"But the truth is you are the weak and I am the tyranny of evil men,
but I'm trying Ringo... I'm trying really hard to be the shepherd."
-Jules
Annius Groenink
>>mark_...@troubadour.win.net (MARK STORY) wrote:
>>>Has anyone heard or read any reliable information (or even entertaining
>>>legends) about why the pianos in all of Monk's recordings are grossly out of
>>>tune? Was it intentional - that is, a product of an artistic philosophy of
Someone (sorry) replies:
>>Are you serious? I own 5 or 6 Monk albums or CDs, and it has never
>>even occurred to me while listening that the piano(s) was out of tune.
>>Certainly he is playing dissonant notes.
mis...@bnr.ca (Mike Smith P125) writes:
>I'm glad somebody else has the nerve to admit that they don't hear
>what Mark finds so glaringly obvious.
This depends on your definition of `out of tune'. The higher keys on a piano
trigger two or three strings, and these can be tuned differently.
This can make a piano sound `old' but perfectly in tune.
Compare this to what many (cheap?) synthesizers do to achieve a `warm' sound:
they tune the left channel slightly lower, and the right channel an equal
amount higher than the actual pitch. When I try and mimick Monk, I sometimes
do this by stacking a few synthesizer sounds over my digital piano, all in
tune, but some chorusy.
Who knows Monk sniffed his cocaine left-right-left so that his left ear
would hear slightly higher pitches than the right, and tuned his pianos
accordingly.
--
Annius V. Groenink | a...@cwi.nl | Private/Edith/ZFC:
CWI, Kruislaan 413 | z...@zfc.nl | P.O. Box 12079
1098 SJ Amsterdam | Room M233 ext. 4077 | NL 1100 AB Amsterdam
The Netherlands | Phone: +31 20 592 4077 | Phone: +31 20 695 9901
Marty Krystall
version of "Reflections" when Horace Silver accompanied him, then during
his solo left the piano bench to receive Monk, who sat down and
accompanied Sonny during the remainder of the tune. Monk's sound and
attack are clearly over twice as fat and big! And Horace Silver is a
world class pianist and accompanist.
Barry Blumenthal
>In article <DIA4t...@eskimo.com>, David Kaatz <dka...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
>>Certainly he is playing dissonant notes.
>>
However, "dissonance" usually refers to notes that clash harmonically,
not to out of tune playing.
>> why the pianos in all of Monk's recordings are grossly out of
>>>tune? Was it intentional - that is, a product of an artistic philosophy of
>>
>>Are you serious? I own 5 or 6 Monk albums or CDs, and it has never
>>even occurred to me while listening that the piano(s) was out of tune.
Might want to check your ears. Monk has a distinctive tone, and the
method of achieving said tone still baffles me, (I'm a working jazz
pianist) but to say that all OR none of the pianos on his recordings were
out of tune is plain wrong. Some were, especially during concert
recordings, and some were not, primarily on live recordings of
club dates, where club owners would have the piano painted before they
spent money on tuning it! Monk's touch can be heavy, resulting in the
piano drifting off pitch, especially on an instrument that hasn't been
maintained. This may explain the frequency of poorly tuned pianos on
Monk's recordings. The all-time piano wrecker has to be (REALLY LOUD
drum roll, please) .... Dave Brubeck.
>Still, there's something there besides just the choice of notes. Just
>listen to the difference between Marcus Roberts playing Monk (on Alone
>with 3 Really Big Guys, or whatever) and Monk playing Monk. Monk does
>sound like he's playing on an old upright where half the keys stick,
>half don't work, and the other half are out of tune. But I doubt he
>actually detuned his pianos before recording. A common assertion is
>that Monk had the unique talent to bend notes on the piano like a horn
>or string player.
Ummmmmmm..... You can achieve vibrato by opening and closing the top
real quick, I guess, and maybe make use of the Doppler effect by rapidly
pushing the piano towards or away from the audience, but any bending of
pitch on a piano is fairly permanent until you retune it! :^)
Regarding the difference between Roberts playing Monk, and Monk
playing Monk; this should be self-explanatory. Roberts is a trained
pianist with excellent techniqe copying someone else's style. Monk had
very unorthodox technique, and that's one of the reasons he sounds like
Monk. Does Wynton playing like Woody Shaw sound like Woody Shaw?
>
>Monk and Glenn Gould are two pianists I (and many others) recognize
>before I can identify what they are playing. Gould supposedly did tinker
>with his pianos (he somehow padded the strings to deaden the tone, like
>a Motown bassist putting padding under his bridge). But if Monk did
>something similar, don't you think this would be common knowledge?
Probably, so I doubt the "tinker" theory very much. Gould has had his
pianos reworked for specific purposes, primarily when playing Bach. As
you know, Bach never wrote for the piano. The fortepiano, an early
ancestor of the pianoforte we have today, was a much clunkier instrument
action-wise with a smaller, more delicate sound, and Gould has tried to
come closer to authentic "period" recreation of Bach's music by altering
the action of some of his pianos towards the feel of a fortepiano.
Thanks for the opportunity to add my opinion. Glad to hear from others
on this interesting thread.
Barry Blumenthal
Lew Green
>Barry Blumenthal <blum...@potsdam.edu> writes:
>
Matt,
Love you Adams quote.... First off I know nothing about m
music theory...
>Monk didn't need to do anything as silly as actually detune the piano to
>make it sound out of tune. His technique was so amazing he could make
>you THINK you heard bum notes (especially in his solo recordings).
>Funnily enough, this effect worked best when he had a good, well-tuned
>instrument.
I do recall seeing a documentary of a tour of his once he had some
aclaim (in London) and how perfectionist he was on the piano 's
tuning and his bands rehersing and everything...
>The best examples of Monk playing a rotten piano are on the Prestige
>recordings. It's painful to hear, because you know Thelonious must have
>been cringing inside at some of the sounds.
I never got Monk until I played his version of "Smoke gets in your
eyes" on one of the Prestige lps... Am I just hearing an out of tune
piano or brilliance?
The piece chokes me up emotionally... And what I love about it.,..
Is when ever you think a note should be one thing -- it's another --
but it is still melodic and beautiful...
I remember finally liking a Stravinsky piece and reading the word
"dissonence" in the notes afterwards... That word struck me for some
reason and I then tried Monk again... And got hooked... It seems to me
like when you expect him to go left -- he goes right -- and vice
versa....but he always reaches a destination and it's beautiful and
exhilerating getting there...
That's my amatuer opinion anyway....
Lew Green
>
>
>Matt Snyder "I'm all in favor of getting grants for jazz
>hsn...@crab.rutgers.edu musicians. Or any other good brand of Scotch."
> - Pepper Adams
>
Gary Valentin
Lew> Love you Adams quote.... First off I know nothing about m
Lew> music theory...
Okay - so I can jump in also!
I think that you need a lot of patience with dissonant music. I doubt
anyone just listened to Monk or Stravinksi and said "WOW! that's
beautiful the first time they heard it.
Anyways once you get past that initial phase, you can start
appreciating the actual melody and the music,
but - I still don't like it.
Because after I finally recognize a tune and I can practically sing
along to it (off key, but who cares) I sincerely don't find his music
to be moving. Round Midnight is nice, there's other nice ones too...
but I don't like the effort I have to put in to appreciate it. It
just doesn't pay off for me.
The other extreme would be Keith Jarrett.
I get more pleasure out of his music and I only have to listen to it
2-3 times before I get it. Plus I can play it over and over again and
it's still beautiful.
t'was my humble opinion.
--
____________________________________________________________________
garyValentin \ IBM DB2 Performance
rud...@vnet.ibm.com \
(416)-448-3467 \ Everybody makes me steaks,
(TL)-778-3467 \ even me.
Marc Sabatella
> The best examples of Monk playing a rotten piano are on the Prestige
> recordings. It's painful to hear, because you know Thelonious must have
> been cringing inside at some of the sounds.
My personal take is that every pianist has played on an out-of-tune piano from
time to time, and if Monk seems to have released more recordings on poorly
tuned pianos than most pianists, it is probably because he was not particularly
picky about it. Bill Evans, on the other hand, would never have approved for
release recordings on bad pianos.
--
Marc Sabatella
--
ma...@fc.hp.com
http://www.fortnet.org/~marc/
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
Mike Smith P125
Gary Valentin <vale...@torolab.ibm.com> wrote:
>
>I think that you need a lot of patience with dissonant music. I doubt
>anyone just listened to Monk or Stravinksi and said "WOW! that's
>beautiful the first time they heard it.
>
This is interesting, as my own experience was completely opposite.
For some reason I cannot now recall, when I was around 11 I picked
up Monk's self-named Columbia release; probably because I liked the
cover photo. It blew me away as soon as I heard it. This was my
introduction to jazz.
Stravinsky I'm still working on, for the most part.
mps
Mikebtrane
piece of music, was fabulous the first time I heard it in high school
(though the music teacher who played it for us proceeded to bad mouth it.)
My first reaction to Monk, many years later, was the same - this is great
stuff.
However, since I first listened to Stravinsky and Monk roughly 50 years
after they composed their music; perhaps "getting" the music is not so
much of an accomplishment as "getting it" when it was first performed.
I can't tell you much about piano tuning or detuning, but it's not the
mechanical production of this music that makes it powerful; it's the
musical notes and playing of those notes.
Mike Brannan