cool jazz vs. hot jazz
puck
in hot jazz?
puck
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Josh Dougherty
puck <hawsons...@cf.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:8p7q9to5j6m44sjf4...@4ax.com...
> if chet, miles et all represented the cool jazz who were the big names
> in hot jazz?
>
> puck
>
Probably some examples would be:
Charlie Parker and the boppers
Art Blakey and the JM's
Coltrane
I think Miles actually didn't fit strictly into "cool jazz" all the time
either. A lot of the stuff he did could also be considered "hot jazz".
But, I don't usually use those terms, and there really never was a "hot
jazz" genre per se. "Cool" was a name that caught on to identify a certain
kind of ultra laid back melodic kind of style prominent with west coast
musicians. If you invent a "hot jazz" genre as an opposite of "Cool jazz",
it would probably be characterized by an aggressive and energetic playing
style. Lester Young could be considered the first "cool jazz" player (but
he preceded that label), whereas Coleman Hawkins would be at the other end
of the spectrum ("hot jazz" if you must).
Josh
zeno
Armstrong and and Duke Ellington epitomized what the term meant. All the music
of that school was called "Hot Jazz" and the term was also used abroad as
well.
Zeno
Faizal Ali
most often in Europe) to distinguish the more serious, harder swinging music
from the "sweet", commercial dance bands of the era.
The antithesis of the cool jazz of the fifties may have been the hard bop of
Blakey, Silver etc. although as Josh points out there is no clear
demarcation between the genres.
Josh Dougherty
zeno <ze...@sonic.net> wrote in message news:3A9DB051...@sonic.net...
> "Hot Jazz" was a well know term for the music that preceded Swing. Louis
> Armstrong and and Duke Ellington epitomized what the term meant. All the
music
> of that school was called "Hot Jazz" and the term was also used abroad as
> well.
> Zeno
>
But, still this has no direct relationship to, and is not the opposite of,
"cool jazz" (a '50s-'60s genre) which is what I think the question was
getting at.
zeno
Josh Dougherty wrote:
Yes, I think it does. What Lester Young possessed in his approach contained a
number of elements which were in direct contrast to those which characterized
the "hot" style of the times . His eccentric sense of timing ,his phrasing,
his lack of vibrato as well as his melodic invention which felt no necessary
obligation to reference every single chord in the progression (as did the
style of say Coleman Hawkins) was seen to be, in retrospect ,the beginning of
the "cool" approach which first manifested stylistically in Bebop (eg. Parker
studied Prez solos and built upon what he found there), and then also in later
Prez emulations by a number of players associated with what came to be known
as "the cool school". Prez was, in the beginning. very much part of the "hot
jazz" of his era, and that is why his contrasting concepts within that
context were so noticed, and even at one point (with Fletcher Henderson)
derided. It is also why Prez, more than any other of his era, fit so nicely
into the later "modern jazz" small group format, a style which he continued to
work in long after the Swing era.
Why does there have to be an exact "opposite" to the term "cool Jazz" anyway?
These are just convenient labels for every incremental and noticeable change
in what musicians evolved. bebop, cool, hard swing, hard bop, soul,
whatever...... who ever uses a term like soft bop or soft swing, or warm jazz
except on hip album titles. {Ralph Burns: Very Warm for Jazz etc.}
"In its jazz sense, the word "hot" does not necessarily mean loud and fast.
"Hot" muic may well be languid and soft. The word "hot" refers to a musical
attitude and idiom, discussed in these pages, not to a particular tempo or
volume"
-FORTUNE MAGAZINE AUGUST 1933 "Introducing Duke Ellington....who grosses
$250,000 a year with Mood Indigo and the Cotton Club Stomp. Hot music: the
true jazz, whose heroes are Bix and Jack and Louis."
Zeno
Tom W. Ferguson
>> Armstrong and and Duke Ellington epitomized what the term meant. All the
> music
>> of that school was called "Hot Jazz" and the term was also used abroad as
>> well.
>> Zeno
>>
> Ok. I didn't know that.
>
> But, still this has no direct relationship to, and is not the opposite of,
> "cool jazz" (a '50s-'60s genre) which is what I think the question was
> getting at.
Circa the '50s-early-'60s there was at least a somewhat common usage of
"hot" to mean the old school that might be heard at, say, Eddie Condon's . .
. and "cool" to mean the segment of "modern jazz" that so far as I can tell
is still referred to as "cool."
As a teenager I had a two-disc extended play 45 album (I think memory has
this exactly correct) entitled "Hot vs. Cool," and which featured on one
disc a Kai Winding group and on the other disc a dixieland group playing the
same tunes. One of the tracks was "Get Happy." Hokey as can be . . . but a
fascinating exercise if you were young at the time, and just arriving at the
music.
Josh Dougherty
zeno <ze...@sonic.net> wrote in message news:3A9DC96B...@sonic.net...
There doesn't, but I think that is what the question was asking. ie- if
Chet and Miles are "cool" which of their contemporaries are on the other
side ("hot").
Top Catt
jbd...@hotmail.com says...
[...]
> > Why does there have to be an exact "opposite" to the term "cool Jazz"
> anyway?
>
> There doesn't, but I think that is what the question was asking. ie- if
> Chet and Miles are "cool" which of their contemporaries are on the other
> side ("hot").
Or, why isn't it recognized that some jazz musicians can move
back and forth between the seemingly opposite poles of "cool" and
"hot?" The "cool" Miles of the 50's was--after all--the same man
who made "A Tribute to Jack Johnson," "Bitches Brew," "Live
Evil," "Miles at Fillmore" and then "Dark Magus" and "Pangaea," a
couple of decades later. HOT jazz? Some of that jazz is so hot
that it could scorch the paint off a wall.
On the "Newport Rebels" album, Eric Dolphy is lyrical and "cool,"
playing alongside his seniors, Roy Eldridge and Jo Jones. But
contrast that performance with the Copenhagen concerts, where
Eric seems determined to push his Scandinavian sidemen to the
limit! On "The Way You Look Tonight," there's a moment when the
drummer almost gives up, yelling what might be the Danish
equivalent of "Oh shit!"
Pigeonholing is such a difficult (and near-pointless) business, I
wonder at times why anyone bothers with it. It's useful in
providing a point of departure, at least... maybe that's the
reason.
T.C.
zeno
Josh Dougherty wrote:
I was in a haze and didn't read it that carefully. So....never mind.
Zeno
there would be lots of examples. Joe Gordon, Shorty Rogers, Thad Jones, you
could go on and on with horns warmer than Chet or Miles at that time I guess.
Utevsky
news:B6C338E0.4E2B%t...@pathwaynet.com...
. . .
> As a teenager I had a two-disc extended play 45 album (I think memory has
> this exactly correct) entitled "Hot vs. Cool," and which featured on one
> disc a Kai Winding group and on the other disc a dixieland group playing
the
> same tunes. One of the tracks was "Get Happy." Hokey as can be . . . but a
> fascinating exercise if you were young at the time, and just arriving at
the
> music.
That's interesting. I remember seeing an LP called "Hot vs. Cool Jazz" (or
something like that). One side was Lennie Tristano, but I don't recall who
was on the other side. Has anyone else seen it?
Hal Vickery
"Hot jazz" was a term used mostly, I think by the French. "Le jazz hot"
(excuse my use of the article if it's the wrong gender...I don't speak French."
Hugues Panassie' wrote a book with that title in the '30s. He was such a
moldy fig that he thought of swing as non-jazz.
He did produce some memorable recordings featuring Tommy Ladnier, Sidney
Bechet, and Mezz Mezzrow for Victor in the late '30s, the best of which is
probably "Really the Blues."
nsmf
SJC
>From: "Josh Dougherty" jbd...@hotmail.com
>Date: 2/28/01 1:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <97jrgk$3ae$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net>
Really, the thread title SHOULD be---cool jazz vs hard bebop.
Cool
Gerry Mulligan
Dave Brubeck
(just to name a few)
Hard (or, Bebop)
Charlie Parker
Dizzy G.
T.Monk
Miles Davis
Cecil Taylor
etc.etc.etc.
==========================================================================
============================================
"WE...................... have an
audience.....................................work with me."-Julia Stiles
-
Stewart Turnbull
Josh Dougherty <jbd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:97jrgk$3ae$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
at
war, cool jazz used to be known as jazz by, i.e; Bird, Dizzy, Miles,
Navarro, Pres, mostly 'modern jazz', and 'hot' jazz was, i.e; Louis
Armstrong,
Jelly Roll Morton, Kid Ory, Sidney Bechet; Eddie Condon, etc.
The imaginary line could be jumped by anybody at any time.
There is a live recording from Birdland, circa 1952?, well recorded, titled
'Hot
versus
Cool', the 'Battle Of Jazz'. The cool jazz side is represented and
introduced by Dizzy Gillespie fronting a group with Ray Abrams tenor; Don
Elliot tpt/mellophone; Ronnie Ball piano; Al McKibbon bass; Max Roach drums.
The 'hot' band features trumpeters Jimmy McPartland and Dick Cary, and a
clarinettist who sounds very like Edmund Hall plus a trombonist who sounds
very familiar but his name wasn't even on the tip of my tongue because I
looked. There is another band on the 'cool' side which might be Don Elliot
fronting Dizzy's band and I am a hundred and one percent certain Buddy De
Franco on clarinet is present on two tracks, and also trombonist Kai
Winding. Some tracks sound as if they were recorded in a studio.
I taped this LP which belonged to a friend of mine, but I didn't jot down
all the personnel because I thought I was hip and wouldn't forget the names.
But I wasn't no where near hip, I forgot! Age caught up!
The use of the word 'hot' faded as the use of the word 'swing' began
to
take over.
Stu.
dwel...@home.com
Armstrong's Hot 5 and Hot 7 recordings from '25 to '28. Cool Jazz of
the 1950s was supposed to be the opposite of Be-Bop which was
considered hectic, frenetic, etc...Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie,
Bud Powell would have been some of the big names.
On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:55:22 +0000, puck <hawsons...@cf.ac.uk>
wrote:
Don Mopsick
traveling musician during that period was in a strange town and looking for
a jam session, he would ask "Where are the HOT players?" Not "where is it
that they play the true jazz?" or "Where are the local Dixieland players in
this town?"
Musically, "hot" refers mainly to the characteristically energetic
syncopation that distinguishes jazz content from non-jazz, such as that
found in Armstrong's playing in the 20's and 30's. Another common usage was
"hot rhythm" which refers to the desirable qualities that would inspire
dancing such as Lindy, Jitterbug, Swing, etc.
A very popular music study/excersize book of the period featured a
collection of Armstrong solos transcribed. The introduction says something
like, "If you want to get hot and stay hot, memorize these solos..."
In the 50's, Cool was not so much a reaction to Diz as it was to Armstrong,
who was very active and popular then.
Today's "hot music" scene is very large and exists in a parallel universe
from the one inhabited by most on this ng. There are many reasons for the
schism which have been written about extensively in past threads. For a
survey of the best of the modern hot players, go to www.riverwalk.org and
click on Guest Profiles.
mop
<dwel...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3aa1a8e4...@news.edgewd1.ky.home.com...
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Don Mopsick skrev ..
> Today's "hot music" scene is very large and exists in a parallel universe
> from the one inhabited by most on this ng.
VERY well said, Don!
Ulf
Faizal Ali
"Don Mopsick" <moph...@landing.com> wrote in message
news:20uo6.12141$YC1.3...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
>
(SNIP)
> A very popular music study/excersize book of the period featured a
> collection of Armstrong solos transcribed. The introduction says something
> like, "If you want to get hot and stay hot, memorize these solos..."
>
Interesting. I didn't realize commercial solo transcriptions existed as
early as that.
> In the 50's, Cool was not so much a reaction to Diz as it was to
Armstrong,
> who was very active and popular then.
>
Are you quite sure about that?
Hal Vickery
>"Don Mopsick" <moph...@landing.com> wrote in message
<snip>>> In the 50's, Cool was not so much a reaction to Diz as it was to
>Armstrong,
>> who was very active and popular then.
>>
>
>Are you quite sure about that?
I always thought that cool was simply a way of describing that genre which was
far less flashy (or firey, or "hot") than previous incarnations of jazz.
nsmf
slavid
"hot jazz" was and where the term came from.
Unfortunately the term "cool jazz" whilst it may have started as a term
aplied to a style of jazz or even a school, has now been subverted by the
middle-of-the-road brigade who use it to describe the Kenny Gs of this world
and other muzak.
So what can we call real jazz. It needs a term that will explain how its
different from "cool jazz" I reckon "hot jazz" is as good as any - perhaps
angry jazz might do.
Any other suggestions?
"puck" <hawsons...@cf.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:8p7q9to5j6m44sjf4...@4ax.com...
puck
stood up, raised ones hand and gleefully exclaimed:
>I have seen lots of replies to this post - and all the history explains what
>"hot jazz" was and where the term came from.
>
>Unfortunately the term "cool jazz" whilst it may have started as a term
>aplied to a style of jazz or even a school, has now been subverted by the
>middle-of-the-road brigade who use it to describe the Kenny Gs of this world
>and other muzak.
>
>So what can we call real jazz. It needs a term that will explain how its
>different from "cool jazz" I reckon "hot jazz" is as good as any - perhaps
>angry jazz might do.
>
>Any other suggestions?
ken burns documentary and the wynton marsalis niche?!?
Hal Vickery
>I have seen lots of replies to this post - and all the history explains
>what
>"hot jazz" was and where the term came from.
>
>Unfortunately the term "cool jazz" whilst it may have started as a term
>aplied to a style of jazz or even a school, has now been subverted by the
>middle-of-the-road brigade who use it to describe the Kenny Gs of this world
>and other muzak.
I think the term that's used for that form of "music" is "smooth jazz," not
"cool jazz."
>So what can we call real jazz. It needs a term that will explain how its
>different from "cool jazz" I reckon "hot jazz" is as good as any - perhaps
>angry jazz might do.
>
>Any other suggestions?
I suggest "jazz."
nsmf
Joel Shute
slavid
will "oh yes it does" do as a reply
"Joel Shute" <jsh...@niu.edu> wrote in message
news:98e44a$snb$1...@husk.cso.niu.edu...
Joel Shute
"slavid" <peter...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ys9s6.262$9U5.1...@news2.cableinet.net...
René
Do you like Chet Baker?
If so, I want to visit you to my website "Jazz World & Chet Baker", just "look
around" and give your notice/remembrance of this Chet in the "world-wide"
guestbook! http://members.home.nl/jazz-wereld/
Enjoy playing, listen & talkin' about Jazz!
René. (jazz-world)
In article <8p7q9to5j6m44sjf4...@4ax.com>, puck
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René
Sorry, I mean (of course!) to invite you, to pay a visit at my website!