Coltrane on LSD
Rajesh Nair
This is my first, tentative dip into usenet waters, and I hope all you jazz
fans can help me out.
A year ago, Downbeat carried a cover story on Coltrane (June '98). One of
the facts mentioned was that Trane recorded Om 'possibly under the influence
of LSD'.
I've been a big Trane fan for six years now. Yet all I know about the man is
through mags, liner notes and Miles' autobiography. (Here in Bangalore,
India, finding books on jazz is harder than finding jazz CDs!)
Can anyone confirm the veracity of DB's claim? I was under the impression
that Trane gave up drugs after he OD'ed while with Miles.
Any light shed on this matter would be... well... enlightening!
Thanx,
Rajesh
Fathom
<na...@punkass.com> wrote:
> Can anyone confirm the veracity of DB's claim? I was under the impression
> that Trane gave up drugs after he OD'ed while with Miles.
> Any light shed on this matter would be... well... enlightening!
Coltrane gave up heroin (which wasn't easy) and other intoxicating drugs
in '57, as you say, and led a "pure" life thereafter. However, in the
early 60's LSD was not considered an intoxicant, but a window into
spiritual realms. So it's possible that Coltrane, like many other
spiritual seekers of the time, accepted it as a tool in his quest.
If anyone alive would know for sure, it might be McCoy Tyner, Elvin Jones,
or Pharoah Sanders, who surely would have shared the experience with him.
Does anyone want to go ask them?
--
Respond by e-mail to aayoung"AT"sonic.net
8 8 8 8 8 8 8
Always remember: your focus determines your reality.
SwingDoug
things, and Veen said they were all on acid for "A Love Supreme".
Rick
Sounds like an apocryphal suburban jazz myth to me. The music
on that album is strange, but understandable. The music is too
well organized and the musicianship is tight, so it's hard for
me to believe that they were high. J. C. Thomas doesn't mention
anything about LSD and the "Love Supreme" session in his
autobiography of Coltrane.
--
Rick
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Steve Ogden
>on that album is strange, but understandable. The music is too
>well organized and the musicianship is tight, so it's hard for
>me to believe that they were high. J. C. Thomas doesn't mention
>anything about LSD and the "Love Supreme" session in his
>autobiography of Coltrane.
Don't be so skeptical. You can be tripping and still punch out some tight
recordings. A fine example (probably not widely accepted here) would be the
Good Ol' Grateful Dead. They're stage work was absolutely amazing (for the
most part) and earlier in their career they drop acid for a large portion of
their shows. They lived in and Acid Factory for God's sake!!! It's true that
some of their tunes were quite simple, but during their Aoxoaxaoxoa period
(it's legitimate), they were composing some pretty complicated peices and
performing them regularly on stage.
and my point was... (it's been a long week)
-Steve
*delete joselito to reply*
scottmcf
acid-dropping. No one ever played as well as that while high (the
Grateful Dead's inane doodlings included). However, he's clearly
tripping during the horrible "Om".
Rick wrote:
>
> In article <19990711143249...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,
> swin...@aol.com (SwingDoug) wrote:
> > A friend of mine played in Elvin's band for a while. He asked Elvin
> about some
> > things, and Veen said they were all on acid for "A Love Supreme".
> >
>
> Sounds like an apocryphal suburban jazz myth to me. The music
> on that album is strange, but understandable. The music is too
> well organized and the musicianship is tight, so it's hard for
> me to believe that they were high. J. C. Thomas doesn't mention
> anything about LSD and the "Love Supreme" session in his
> autobiography of Coltrane.
Gary Smiley
others), when Love Supreme was made. I saw that band (I was 16). I even got Elvin
and McCoy's autographs between sets. They seemed quite professional, businesslike,
and personable to me.
SwingDoug wrote:
> A friend of mine played in Elvin's band for a while. He asked Elvin about some
> things, and Veen said they were all on acid for "A Love Supreme".
--
To reply, please don't forget to remove the "nospam" portion of my email address.
Ed Rhodes, Jr.
>A year ago, Downbeat carried a cover story on Coltrane (June '98). One of
>the facts mentioned was that Trane recorded Om 'possibly under the influence
>of LSD'...
>Can anyone confirm the veracity of DB's claim? I was under the impression
>that Trane gave up drugs after he OD'ed while with Miles.
no-...@sonic.net (Fathom) wrote:
>Coltrane gave up heroin (which wasn't easy) and other intoxicating drugs
>in '57, as you say, and led a "pure" life thereafter. However, in the
>early 60's LSD was not considered an intoxicant, but a window into
>spiritual realms. So it's possible that Coltrane, like many other
>spiritual seekers of the time, accepted it as a tool in his quest.
#1, AFAIK Trane never "od'ed" while with Miles. He kicked his heroin
habit in 1957.
#2, the LSD thing has been reported in a number of accounts including
Eric Nisenson's book. While there seems to be some truth to it, the
conclusions that many people are inclined to draw from it are
presumptive, to say the least. Fathom is right in saying that LSD use
was/is quite a different thing from heroin addiction and one's
experience with the latter may or may not have something directly to
do with one's experimentation with the former.
#3, read Lewis Porter's Coltrane bio.
Ed Rhodes
Gremal
<19990711183448...@ng-fs1.aol.com>...
> Don't be so skeptical. You can be tripping and still punch out some
tight
> recordings. A fine example (probably not widely accepted here) would be
the
> Good Ol' Grateful Dead. They're stage work was absolutely amazing (for
the
> most part) and earlier in their career they drop acid for a large portion
of
> their shows. They lived in and Acid Factory for God's sake!!!
Hendrix was known to use LSD while performing--that might be a more
appropriate comparison. But it's all pretty irrelevant when it comes to
Trane. I don't know one way or the other [whether he experimented w acid],
but i think it's foolish to let dosing rockers be the measuring stick.
especially the dead, who were a far cry from decent musicians.
> It's true that
> some of their tunes were quite simple, but during their Aoxoaxaoxoa
period
> (it's legitimate), they were composing some pretty complicated peices and
> performing them regularly on stage.
> and my point was... (it's been a long week)
hmm. i thought their "period" you are referring to was an album called
Aoxomoxoa, which was supposed to be a "trippy" title because you could
bisect the word and each half was a mirror image of the other. wow.
trippy. don't know where you got aoxoaxaoxoa.
SwingDoug
>anything about LSD and the "Love Supreme" session in his
>autobiography of Coltrane.
Well, you must be right then. A mediocre author of a crap book would know way
more than the man who played drums on the session.
JGoodpast
LSD very heavily from the early to mid 60's through the end of his life. So
much so, that during intermission of his live shows, he had to be occasionally
brought back to stage by someone because he was tripping so hard. It's all in
the book.
john
Jack Woker
> but i think it's foolish to let dosing rockers be the measuring stick.
> especially the dead, who were a far cry from decent musicians.
I agree with Gremal (!) here. The intensity of Trane's music doesn't
have much in common with the very loose and rambling music of the Dead.
Anyone who has ever done acid can tell you that the experience is not at
all conducive to making organized and focused music, especially with an
ensemble. I've always heard that "Om" was recorded under the LSD
influence, and it's easy to believe. This one does ramble a bit.
jack
John Hopkin
Try "Shakedown Street", or "Blues For Allah". They're neither loose nor
rambling. And yes, I'm a jazz man first & foremost! <g>
--
John Hopkin
void
>
>I don't know one way or the other [whether he experimented w acid],
>especially the dead, who were a far cry from decent musicians.
Bah. A far cry from *jazz* musicians, yes, but within their idiom, they
did a lot of terrific stuff (as well as a lot of crap) ... all IMHO, of
course.
--
Ben
/ I believe that the moment is near when by a procedure of active paranoiac \
| thought, it will be possible to systematize confusion and contribute to |
\ the total discrediting of the world of reality. -- Salvador Dali /
Matt Snyder
I really wish people would check Dejanews before posting on topics
which have been discussed ad nauseum in the past. But to once again
summarize:
Lewis Porter's extremely-researched biography goes into this topic at
length. It is not at all disputed that Coltrane was dropping a lot of
acid in 1966-67 ("according to four reliable sources, speaking off the
record"). It isn't known for sure if he was tripping while recording
"Om" but it is quite possible given the time period. He also gigged
often while tripping and "it may be that Coltrane underestimated the
powers of this hallucinogen: one friend 'remembers that Coltrane would
get so disoriented from acid during some gigs that after intermission
he had to be guided back to the stage."
Matt Snyder
http://msnyder.dragonfire.net
To email me, remove NOSPAM from my address.
Stephen Solomon
I saw The John Coltrane Quartet live.
During the performance the thought of drugs never crossed my mind. Man,
all I could think of was Jazz music.
-------Steve
"It's the internal that commands."
Mark
wrote:
>Can anyone confirm the veracity of DB's claim? I was under the impression
>that Trane gave up drugs after he OD'ed while with Miles.
Well... I'm not sure whether John Coltrane was taking acid or not
during his recordings, but whatever it was that made him put out
albums like "Live at the Village Vanguard Again," I'm all for it.
I don't think the artist's personal habits are as important as the
music the artist produces, in the long run. That's just me though.
James P. Reed
did get around to the LSD, just the jazz, even during and after 'Nam.
Nice to hear the same from somebody else.
Jim
Mike C.
recordings. A fine example (probably not widely accepted here) would be the
Good Ol' Grateful Dead. >>
However, the Good Ol' Grateful Dead could never even play in tune together,
never mind tight. The Love Supreme sessions took a lot of concentration and
musicianship, as well as pinpoint reactions. The musicians were pretty
obviously listening to each other and working together. Not something one does
proficiently whilst on drugs. Also, Coltrane had made quite a commitment to the
music. I believe his spirituality alone was enough to carry him through the
sessions.
Mike Crutcher
Guitarist/vocalist. E-mail me today for info about reading/writing musician
for your recording session/gig/showcase.
"Jazz-Shmazz. You can't fool me. Those guys are making that stuff up as they go
along."
Homer Simpson
Mike C.
Try "Shakedown Street", or "Blues For Allah". They're neither loose nor
rambling. >>
Could've fooled me. "Blues For Allah"? I'm sure the Dead's personal guru loved
the down-home blues, right? Ridiculousness...
JGoodpast
>music the artist produces, in the long run. That's just me though.
Of course. It's the music that's left.
john
William R. Barner
Stan Getz on LSD? :)
Bill Barner
William R. Barner
Good point. And I imagine there are people making "Om"-like music
without the benefit of LSD.
Bill Barner
SwingDoug
>never mind tight. The Love Supreme sessions took a lot of concentration and
>musicianship, as well as pinpoint reactions.
Well, this whole argument doesn't make much sense. Trane's quartet was made of
four brilliant musicians. The Grateful Dead was made of....well...I don't need
to say it. LSD does a lot of things to you, but I imagine that with musicians
of the caliber Trane had, it could elevate the music. But they would have to be
masterful musicians to begin with. And they were.
Fathom
> Stan Getz on LSD? :)
No, heroin was his high, AFAIK.
Rajesh Nair
>On Sun, 11 Jul 1999 22:10:28 +0530,
>I don't think the artist's personal habits are as important as the
>music the artist produces, in the long run. That's just me though.
Couldn't agree with you more, Mark.
As I mentioned earlier, I'm heavily into Trane. Right from Workin',
Relaxin', etc in '55, to Stellar Regions in '67. The only problem (if you
can call it that) is that I don't know jack about music theory. I wouldn't
recognise a dominant seventh if it whacked me over the head.
But that doesn't stop me from closing my eyes, smiling broadly and playing
my air sax as 'Ascension' rearranges my body's molecular structure. While
some might marvel at the technical prowess on display, I can only get high
on the emotional content.
That's why I find that a little info on the musician's state of mind (while
creating) only adds to my experience. Sure, I think Elvin's double-timing on
'Acknowledgement' is absolutely brilliant. But when Trane enters on 'Psalm',
I can hear his spiritual convictions in every note.
Fathom and Ed, thanks for your inputs. I can understand how someone like
Trane, seeking a truth and perfection that very few strive for, would try
LSD to get closer to his goal. I only wish we could've followed his quest
with our ears, a little while longer.
JGoodpast
I never did quite understand why Jerry Garcia, who was a fine guitartist,
played in such a mediocre band. At least post-74 Dead.
john
Jason Witherspoon
>
> Sounds like an apocryphal suburban jazz myth to me. The music
> on that album is strange, but understandable. The music is too
> well organized and the musicianship is tight, so it's hard for
> me to believe that they were high. J. C. Thomas doesn't mention
> anything about LSD and the "Love Supreme" session in his
> autobiography of Coltrane.
> --
> Rick
Who's the pitcher (nick: "Spaceman"?) who pitched a perfect game on acid?
If you're a prodigy at what you do, & relatively mentally together,
dropping some of the pure LSD they had around back in the sixties is most
likely not going to impair you. More likely the opposite.
--
Jason Witherspoon
http://www.best.com/~arzachel
Rick
funki...@aol.comnospam (Mike C. ) wrote:
> << Don't be so skeptical. You can be tripping and still punch out
some tight
> recordings. A fine example (probably not widely accepted here) would
be the
> Good Ol' Grateful Dead. >>
>
together,
> never mind tight. The Love Supreme sessions took a lot of
concentration and
> obviously listening to each other and working together. Not something
one does
> proficiently whilst on drugs. Also, Coltrane had made quite a
commitment to the
> music. I believe his spirituality alone was enough to carry him
through the
> sessions.
>
> Mike Crutcher
I agree. I think the reason that stories like that are made up
is that some people come to "Love Supreme" with no context, and
the music just sounds so weird that they think "Hmmm, musta been
on acid". I know it took me a long time to figure out what they
were doing.
As far as Coltrane/Greatful Dead comparisons go (jeesh!) I think
the closest thing to the Dead would be "Ole", which is a pretty
loose jam session, though a lot more interesting to listen to than
the Dead.
Rick
swin...@aol.com (SwingDoug) wrote:
> >J. C. Thomas doesn't mention
> >anything about LSD and the "Love Supreme" session in his
> >autobiography of Coltrane.
>
know way
> more than the man who played drums on the session.
No, I could be wrong, but even though Thomas' book is a
bit amateurish, he does mention Trane's earlier drug use,
so I don't see why he would omit anything about Trane's
LSD use if he knew it, which he might not have.
The point is, the allegation doesn't make sense given the
quality of the session, and usenet is full of bullshit
artists who claim to be or to know someone, so I just post
what I think and let it go at that.
Steve Griggs
You can read an article about Coltrane in Seattle written by Keith
Raether at http://www.hipcitymusic.com. Keith interviewed Jan Kurtis,
the recording engineer for Live in Seattle and Om recorded Sept 30 and
Oct 1 1965.
-Steve Griggs
steve...@hipcitymusic.com
SwingDoug
>played in such a mediocre band.
I never understood the attraction to Jerry's playing. I mean, he didn't suck or
anything, and he was the best musician in the band. But that isn't saying a
whole lot.
JGoodpast
>or
>anything, and he was the best musician in the band. But that isn't saying a
>whole lot.
If you hear him in another context you gain greater appreciation for him. He
had a very distinct sound(something that is very hard to do) and was a very
good improvisor, though not in the jazz vien. CHeck out his work with David
Grisman on acoustic guitar. You'll come away with a better appreciation.
john
TinaPack
>well organized and the musicianship is tight, so it's hard for
>me to believe that they were high.
I once saw a picture in a time life book of an experiment done on a spider. You
saw three webs. a normal web, an erratic web done on the influence of caffine,
and a geometric perfct web done on lsd.
Rick Lopez
arza...@best.com (Jason Witherspoon) wrote:
>Who's the pitcher (nick: "Spaceman"?) who pitched a perfect game on acid?
Bill "the spaceman" Lee.
Friend of mine pitched a 1-hit shutout w/ 17 Ks, no BBs, under same. That
was high-school, though...
RL
Marilyn Crispell, Susie Ibarra, William Parker, Sam Rivers, Matthew Shipp,
David S. Ware, and Reggie Workman Discographies--Samuel Beckett
Eulogy--Baseball & the 10,000 Things--Time Stops--LOVETORN--HARD BOIL--etc.,
at: http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k
***Very Various Music For Sale:
***http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/4SALE.html
----------
William R. Barner
Interesting article. Doesn't discuss whether anyone used LSD during the
Live in Seattle date or the Om recording on the following day.
Bill Barner
D Royko
My memory of that series of photos (going on 20-plus-year old college memories
now) was that the web spun under LSD was completely chaotic and lacking in
terms of any pattern or form. And I believe I was sober that day in class. . .
Dave Royko
William R. Barner
That is how I remember it, also. I wonder what dose the spider got.
Isn't the hallucinogenic dose in humans very small--measured in
micrograms? If so, the comparable dose for a spider, weighing a
fraction of the weight of a human, would be infinitesimal. Seems like a
difficult experiment to do. A better experiment would be to administer
LSD to a mainstream, bop-oriented player before a recording session and
see whether he played any free jazz. Or perhaps play post-A Love
Supreme Coltrane records for the spider and compare the web spun to the
LSD web. :)
Bill Barner
Walter Davis
"Rick Lopez" <bb...@velocity.net> wrote:
>In article <arzachel-130...@arzachel.vip.best.com>,
>arza...@best.com (Jason Witherspoon) wrote:
>
>>Who's the pitcher (nick: "Spaceman"?) who pitched a perfect game on
acid?
>
>Bill "the spaceman" Lee.
well, shoot, I can't find a list of no-hitters on the web, but I don't
believe Lee ever pitched one. (I did find several copies of a list of
perfect games and he ain't on it) The guy who pitched the no-hitter on
acid was Dock Ellis of the Pirates (on June 20th 1970 according to some
LSD website I found out there). At one point Dock recounted some of his
experiences, saying some days (such as this one) he'd go out there and
the plate looked a mile wide and others it was thin as a dime.
Personally, I figure once word got around that Dock was tripping,
batters were a little reluctant to dig in against him.
-walt
Walter Davis walter...@unc.edu
Health Data Analyst at the ph: (919) 962-1019
Institute for Research in Social Science fax: (919) 962-8980
UNC - Chapel Hill
Steve Bosarge
TinaPack <tina...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990714020012...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
> >The music is too
> >well organized and the musicianship is tight, so it's hard for
> >me to believe that they were high.
>
> I once saw a picture in a time life book of an experiment done on a
spider. You
> saw three webs. a normal web, an erratic web done on the influence of
caffine,
> and a geometric perfct web done on lsd.
This may be true, but I have trouble comparing Coltrane's gift with someone
who gets off eating flies.
Steve Bosarge
void
>
>However, the Good Ol' Grateful Dead could never even play in tune together,
>never mind tight.
That is simply false.
I'm no Deadhead by any stretch, but I hate to see anyone slandered[0].
[0] So why on earth am I reading Usenet?
--
Ben
/ I believe that the moment is near when by a procedure of active paranoiac \
| thought, it will be possible to systematize confusion and contribute to |
\ the total discrediting of the world of reality. -- Salvador Dali /
Walter Davis
>Supreme Coltrane records for the spider and compare the web spun to the
>LSD web. :)
>
greatly increases the activity rate of the ants at our radio station.
Tom Pohorsky
Mike C. <funki...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
><< Don't be so skeptical. You can be tripping and still punch out some tight
>recordings. A fine example (probably not widely accepted here) would be the
>Good Ol' Grateful Dead. >>
>
>never mind tight.
You must be quite the dead head to be qualified to make such a conclusive
statement.
>The Love Supreme sessions took a lot of concentration and
>musicianship, as well as pinpoint reactions. The musicians were pretty
>obviously listening to each other and working together. Not something one does
>proficiently whilst on drugs. Also, Coltrane had made quite a commitment to the
>music. I believe his spirituality alone was enough to carry him through the
>sessions.
Someone else wrote earlier in this thread about the difference between
LSD and traditional intoxicants:
| However, in the
|early 60's LSD was not considered an intoxicant, but a window into
|spiritual realms. So it's possible that Coltrane, like many other
|spiritual seekers of the time, accepted it as a tool in his quest.
FWIW, I got pretty proficient at badminton (don't laugh :-) in college.
The only time (out of 20 matches) this guy beat me was when he was on
mescaline. I don't mean this to be a commercial for drug use, more
to distinguish between psychoactive drugs and intoxicants. You don't
hear many legends about the drunk pitcher and the no-hitter :-).
--
- Tom Pohorsky tomp at Netcom dot com
Howard Peirce
> A better experiment would be to administer
> LSD to a mainstream, bop-oriented player before a recording session and
> see whether he played any free jazz.
I don't have any conclusive evidence (at least not without getting some people in
trouble), but I suspect that particular experiment has been conducted many, many
times in the last 30 years or so. I don't believe LSD makes bop players into free
players.
HP
void
>In article <19990714020012...@ng-fx1.aol.com>, tina...@aol.com
>(TinaPack) writes:
>>>well organized and the musicianship is tight, so it's hard for
>>>me to believe that they were high.
>>I once saw a picture in a time life book of an experiment done on a spider.
>>You
>>saw three webs. a normal web, an erratic web done on the influence of
>>caffine,
>>and a geometric perfct web done on lsd.
>
>now) was that the web spun under LSD was completely chaotic and lacking in
>terms of any pattern or form. And I believe I was sober that day in class. . .
You're both wrong and both right, if you believe Albert Hoffman,
inventor of LSD. In his book "LSD: My Problem Child", he says that on
small doses, the spider's web improved, but with larger amounts, the
quality degraded.
Tom Pohorsky
Walter Davis <walter...@unc.edu> wrote:
>In article <378c...@news.velocity.net>,
> "Rick Lopez" <bb...@velocity.net> wrote:
>>In article <arzachel-130...@arzachel.vip.best.com>,
>>arza...@best.com (Jason Witherspoon) wrote:
>>
>>>Who's the pitcher (nick: "Spaceman"?) who pitched a perfect game on
>acid?
>>
>>Bill "the spaceman" Lee.
>
>well, shoot, I can't find a list of no-hitters on the web, but I don't
>believe Lee ever pitched one. (I did find several copies of a list of
>perfect games and he ain't on it) The guy who pitched the no-hitter on
>acid was Dock Ellis of the Pirates (on June 20th 1970 according to some
>LSD website I found out there). At one point Dock recounted some of his
>experiences, saying some days (such as this one) he'd go out there and
>the plate looked a mile wide and others it was thin as a dime.
>Personally, I figure once word got around that Dock was tripping,
>batters were a little reluctant to dig in against him.
Dock Ellis is funny name for this topic. I saw Don Ellis in the early
seventies play the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco. The license
plate on the truck w/the gear was ELLIS D. I hadn't thought of him
as psychedelic, and laughed off the coincidence. But after the show
I wasn't so sure. I think it was a Calif. license plate, so maybe
Dock can pick up the Pennsylvania ELLIS D. If he's still interested...
Mike C.
>
>never mind tight.
That is simply false.
I'm no Deadhead by any stretch, but I hate to see anyone slandered[0]. >>
Then why not prove it? Find me a GD tune where they can play and sing in tune,
and I will personally kiss you on the lips. Those guys were (and still are)
horrible, untrained, meandering, unfocused musicians, if you could even call
them musicians.
Mike Crutcher
Guitarist/vocalist. E-mail me today for info about reading/writing musician
for your recording session/gig/showcase.
"Jazz-Shmazz. You can't fool me. Those guys are making that stuff up as they go
along."
Homer Simpson
Mike C.
statement. >>
No, but I've certainly heard my share of their meandering, meaningless,
unfocused music to last a lifetime. Of the Deadheads that I've known in my
lifetime, I can point to maybe one that wasn't so stubborn and opinionated that
they didn't bother to sit me down for at least an hour to "convert" me to their
lazy, tripped out, yuppie, "love to everybody who loves the Dead" way of
thinking. I've found Deadheads to preach openmindedness to THEIR music, but
they are generally some of the most closedminded people on the planet.
Nordwell, Kurt (BNR:BNRTP:3I38)
> << On 13 Jul 1999 11:36:21 GMT, Mike C. <funki...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
> >
> >However, the Good Ol' Grateful Dead could never even play in tune together,
> >never mind tight.
>
> That is simply false.
>
> I'm no Deadhead by any stretch, but I hate to see anyone slandered[0]. >>
>
> Then why not prove it? Find me a GD tune where they can play and sing in tune,
> and I will personally kiss you on the lips. Those guys were (and still are)
> horrible, untrained, meandering, unfocused musicians, if you could even call
> them musicians.
Good Lord! Are we trolling or what?
I like alot of what the Dead have done. I like their approach to music, and there
is alot of subtle reinterpretation of their material through the years. To me that
and the fact that they are loose is appealing. Their music is by no means
"serious", but it is fun and entertaining. It strikes a chord in alot of people.
Also, I listen to alot of different things and would not consider myself a candidate
for Dead tunnelvision which I will concede is prevalent.
The reason I am responding to your post is that it (and subsequent ones)
remind me of the posts I used to see on the Zappa newsgroup where alot
of the Zappa folks would slam the Dead. I believe that alot of it was
manifested frustration on the fact (and it is a fact) that more people liked
the loose/musically unfocused/meandering music of the Dead instead of
the ultra tight/challenging music of Zappa. It was not a question of exposure,
it was not a question of musical sophistication, and it was not a question
of the Dead culture. The fact is that the music of the Dead was (and still is)
more culturally appreciated than the music of Frank Zappa. Needless to say
it drove alot of the most ardent Zappa fans nuts. I can imagine that it drives
you a little batty as well. Lighten up. The Dead make music that alot of folks
find appealing. Who cares if they don't always sing in tune. Who cares if
Jerry starts to ramble. Apparently that's part of the charm; it is for me.
For the record, I get really worked up at folks who listen to top 40; so the
frustration that I believe you endure, I do as well. There is so much music
out there that I cannot understand how someone would not want to fully
explore it. Why not fully investigate the top 40 genre, to find what would
really resonate and really grab your attention. Alot of folks do not want to
expend the effort to discover new music. I cannot understand it, but somehow
(and it's really hard) I must respect their decision not to do so.
Peace and all kinds of hippie love,
Kurt
void
><< On 13 Jul 1999 11:36:21 GMT, Mike C. <funki...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
>>
>>However, the Good Ol' Grateful Dead could never even play in tune together,
>>never mind tight.
>
>That is simply false.
>
>I'm no Deadhead by any stretch, but I hate to see anyone slandered[0]. >>
What newsreader are you using? It appears to have attributed my post to
you.
>Then why not prove it? Find me a GD tune where they can play and sing in tune,
>and I will personally kiss you on the lips.
Um, okay ... honestly, I haven't listened to them in a while, and when I
did, I wasn't really paying attention to which songs are in tune. But
if you want to hear them playing coherent, listenable folk pop, try
their album "American Beauty", or maybe "Workingman's Dead".
A lot of my favorite recordings are out of tune ... "Charles Mingus
Presents Charles Mingus" springs to mind, as does Bob Dylan's eponymous
first album.
Why the vitriol?
JGoodpast
I find The Dead's music after around 1974 to been exactly as you describe.
BUT, up until that point, specifically the years 69-72, they made alot of
amazing music, most if not all of it live. It was focused, intense, and
actually had forward movement. After '74 they seemed to loose that spark.
Though they occationally had inspired nights. I am not a DEadhead by any
stretch, but I've listened to way to much because of some friends passion for
the music.
john
Mark Henteleff
Mike C. <funki...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
><< On 13 Jul 1999 11:36:21 GMT, Mike C. <funki...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
>>
>>However, the Good Ol' Grateful Dead could never even play in tune together,
>>never mind tight.
>
>That is simply false.
>
>I'm no Deadhead by any stretch, but I hate to see anyone slandered[0]. >>
>
>horrible, untrained, meandering, unfocused musicians, if you could even call
>them musicians.
Spare me the kiss. Anything on the recordings of American Beauty,
In the Dark, Built to Last, or Mars Hotel for starters. If you can't
muster up the energy for all that proof, then just check out the
song *Unbroken Chain* on Mars Hotel for crystal clear proof of
superior *musicianship*...technically, compositionally, and
in terms of heart, soul, and inspiration. The tune cooks...period.
Ornette Coleman, Branford Marsalis, and David Murray must think
differently about the Dead's music as well. They have all played
with the Dead live on more than one occasion.
BTW, there is more to music than doing it *right*. Not only is
*proper* training and extensive knowledge of music theory insufficient
to making inspired music, it often isn't even necessary. A few
prime examples are Bob Marley, James Brown, and Jimi Hendrix.
Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey certainly can *technically*
outsing Billie Holiday...but what about in terms of the
"unquantifiable"? I would say that in terms of heart and soul,
as well as delivery and emotiveness (not to mention the strength
of the material itself)...Houston and Carey aren't anywhere near
the same league. Nor are Cassandra Wilson or Diana Krall, for
that matter. I'm straying a bit here, but similar arguments
can be made about the Dead....or Miles Davis for that matter...
not the greatest trumpet player ever, but arguably the one
with the most taste, style, and creativity.
Mark H.
Steve Bosarge
them are here to smell it.
Steve Bosarge
Nordwell, Kurt (BNR:BNRTP:3I38) <nord...@nortelnetworks.com> wrote in
message news:378DFB2B...@nortelnetworks.com...
> Mike C. wrote:
>
> > << On 13 Jul 1999 11:36:21 GMT, Mike C. <funki...@aol.comnospam>
wrote:
> > >
> > >However, the Good Ol' Grateful Dead could never even play in tune
together,
> > >never mind tight.
> >
> > That is simply false.
> >
> > I'm no Deadhead by any stretch, but I hate to see anyone slandered[0].
>>
> >
> > Then why not prove it? Find me a GD tune where they can play and sing in
tune,
> > and I will personally kiss you on the lips. Those guys were (and still
are)
> > horrible, untrained, meandering, unfocused musicians, if you could even
call
> > them musicians.
>
Mark
wrote:
>Then why not prove it? Find me a GD tune where they can play and sing in tune,
>and I will personally kiss you on the lips. Those guys were (and still are)
>horrible, untrained, meandering, unfocused musicians, if you could even call
>them musicians.
You know, somebody with as closed a mind as yours, it doesn't matter
what I suggest. I could tell you about Europe 72 and send you live
tapes, but it would just be wasted on you. I am glad that there
aren't many people with your attitude. It's a shame, because you're
missing out on a lot of great music, but that's your problem. And
closed-mindedness like yours is definitely a problem.
I do note, however, that Alphonso Johnson, Billy Cobham, Jimmy Herring
and T. Lavitz seem to disagree with you about the Dead's compositional
skills, and I daresay that unless you're some kind of musical god
slumming on the internet, you probably weren't a member of Weather
Report.
crow...@ix.netcom.com
John Hopkin wrote:
> > the very loose and rambling music of the Dead.
>
> Try "Shakedown Street", or "Blues For Allah". They're neither loose nor
> rambling. And yes, I'm a jazz man first & foremost! <g>
Then again don't IMO. Shakedown Street will only confirm your worst
suspicions about the Dead. A horrible album IMO (relative to what it could
have been). Blues for Allah is nice but there's so much better than this
one for hardcore jazz fans (and I don't think most hardcore jazz fans would
like this one anyway). If you want to hear the Dead do amazing jams and you
are a hardcore jazz fan, I recommend *live* releases from the years '68 to
'70 (and once you get it, move onto '71 to '74 stuff).
The obvious first one to recommend is Live/Dead (from some amazing early '69
performances). Two From the Vault (live material from late 1968) will
really impress jazz fans. Dick's Picks 8 (5-2-70, Harpurs College,
Binghamton) reveals their amazing musical abilities in this incredible
legendary concert (this is only available have from the Dead - order by
calling 1-800-CAL-DEAD or from their website at www.dead.net). The 51
minute musical segment on disc 3 of Dicks Picks 12 (6-28-74, Boston Garden)
will amaze and delight any hardcore music fan - plus it's very jazzy at
parts (only available from the Dead). But just about any live tape from '69
should knock your socks off no matter what your musical background is.
Apologies for so much Dead stuff on a jazz newsgroup but I just couldn't in
good conscience not respond to the above recommendations.
OJC: I'm a jazz newbie but like Blue Train a lot, more than Kind of Blue.
Bill
crow...@ix.netcom.com
SwingDoug wrote:
> >I never did quite understand why Jerry Garcia, who was a fine guitartist,
> >played in such a mediocre band.
>
> I never understood the attraction to Jerry's playing. I mean, he didn't suck or
> anything, and he was the best musician in the band. But that isn't saying a
> whole lot.
My guess is you've both heard little or no live Dead in the period '68 to '70.
Some historic music by the Dead that will blow people away centuries into the
future (if people are still around) was made then. And it is proof that people can
do it on LSD as the Dead apparently did. The effects of it must diminish in some
ways with use so that it is possible to get up there and play brilliantly.
Bill
crow...@ix.netcom.com
Mike C. wrote:
> Then why not prove it? Find me a GD tune where they can play and sing in tune,
> and I will personally kiss you on the lips. Those guys were (and still are)
> horrible, untrained, meandering, unfocused musicians, if you could even call
> them musicians.
You are incredibly wrong IMO and it's a shame as you'll probably go through life
completely ignorant of the incredible stuff of their's easily available for free on
the net (other than the cost of blanks and postage). If you only knew what you
were missing you'd see the folly of those words (but I like your Simpson's quote
:^)
Bill
Ulf Åbjörnsson
crow...@ix.netcom.com skrev i inlägg <378EEAE3...@ix.netcom.com>...
> Apologies for so much Dead stuff on a jazz newsgroup but I just couldn't
in
> good conscience not respond to the above recommendations.
> Bill
>
Well put, Bill! It started out as a discussion on JC's well-documented use
of drugs and ended up in a discussion on a rock group.
Earlier we had a lengthty discussion about some rock drummer!
What is this list doing these days?
Ulf in Svedala
Jack Woker
>
> Oh, God, not another Dead-Zappa shit-slinging festival. . . .and neither of
> them are here to smell it.
Why do Dead fans become so hostile and insulting when anyone criticizes
their idols?
jack
David Gascon
A lot of other religions are like that, too, IMHO.
Todd Bishop
Mike C. wrote:
> << Don't be so skeptical. You can be tripping and still punch out some tight
> recordings. A fine example (probably not widely accepted here) would be the
> Good Ol' Grateful Dead. >>
>
> However, the Good Ol' Grateful Dead could never even play in tune together,
> never mind tight. The Love Supreme sessions took a lot of concentration and
> musicianship, as well as pinpoint reactions. The musicians were pretty
> obviously listening to each other and working together. Not something one does
> proficiently whilst on drugs. Also, Coltrane had made quite a commitment to the
> music. I believe his spirituality alone was enough to carry him through the
> sessions.
It may well have been. But being on LSD is not the experience implied by the
code-phrase "on drugs" (as if they were falling-down drunk or high on crack).TB
>
>
> Mike Crutcher
> Guitarist/vocalist. E-mail me today for info about reading/writing musician
> for your recording session/gig/showcase.
>
robs...@my-deja.com
most of you are discussing here. In fact, the
Dead regularly credited Mr. Coltrane himself for
turning them on to sheets of sounds, spiritually
entranced music and long, winding jams. In the
90s and late 80s, exceptional jazz musicians
sat in with the Dead, playing in front of 20,000
fans, more than hundreds of jazz club gigs
combined. These masters included Ornette Coleman
(conversely, Jerry Garcia played on one of his
albums, too), David Murray (who covered Dead tunes
on his album 'Dark Star') and Branford Marsalis,
among others. While many 1968-70 Dead shows
have great jamming, the stuff from 1972-74
is much 'jazzier' primarily because they had
only one drummer (Mickey Hart) playing a
regular trap set. One further note: Phil
Less, Dead bassist, is a huge Miles and
Coltrane fan, and even played "My Favorite Things"
at a recent concert alongside Phish's guitarist
and keyboardist.
article <378EEAE3...@ix.netcom.com>,
> Apologies for so much Dead stuff on a jazz
newsgroup but I just couldn't in
> good conscience not respond to the above
recommendations.
>
> OJC: I'm a jazz newbie but like Blue Train a
lot, more than Kind of Blue.
>
> Bill
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Tom Pohorsky
Jack Woker <ste...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>Steve Bosarge wrote:
>>
>> Oh, God, not another Dead-Zappa shit-slinging festival. . . .and neither of
>> them are here to smell it.
>
>Why do Dead fans become so hostile and insulting when anyone criticizes
>their idols?
Is this a(nother) troll ? The only hostile insults were from the guy
who said:
>Find me a GD tune where they can play and sing in
tune,
> > and I will personally kiss you on the lips. Those guys were (and still
are)
> > horrible, untrained, meandering, unfocused musicians, if you could even
call
> > them musicians.
The rest of the discussion was suggestions like listening
to Blues For Allah or Live Dead.
And FWIW I see plenty of Dead heads criticize the Dead, performances,
individual members, etc. But the lamest Dead heads are often the most
vocal, he vocalized ... %^)
Andrew P. Lewis
>While many 1968-70 Dead shows have great jamming, the stuff from 1972-74
>is much 'jazzier' primarily because they had only one drummer (Mickey Hart)
>playing a regular trap set.
I agree with all this, except that the drummer in those years was
Bill Kreutzmann, not Hart. Unlike most rock drummers, Kreutzmann actually
knows how to swing; his playing is a lot jazzier (and IMO simply better)
than people like Mitch Mitchell, Bonham, or Moon mentioned in another thread.
Also worth noting is that Miles Davis opened for the dead in 1970
("Black Beauty" is from one of these shows), and in his autobiography
has only good things to say about the band (esp. Garcia).
andy
McMahon
>OJC: I'm a jazz newbie but like Blue Train a lot, more than Kind of Blue.
Go for more in the 'Trane vein! "Miles Smiles" & "Sketches Of Spain" are the
only Miles albums that IMO even compete with 1959-1964 Coltrane.
--
Murph
Steve Bosarge
Jack Woker <ste...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:378F58...@ix.netcom.com...
> Steve Bosarge wrote:
> >
> > Oh, God, not another Dead-Zappa shit-slinging festival. . . .and
neither of
> > them are here to smell it.
>
> Why do Dead fans become so hostile and insulting when anyone criticizes
> their idols?
>
>
>
Jack, Your post surprises me. I'm not a Dead or Zappa fan, and they are
the farthest from being MY idols. Are you saying I'm hostile and insulting
because I posted a hope that a marathon Dead-Zappa controversy was not in
the making? I happen to agree with what you said, but your comment is
misdirected.
Steve Bosarge
JGoodpast
>only Miles albums that IMO even compete with 1959-1964 Coltrane.
Yeah?!?! I mean, Cookin', Workin', Steamin', Relaxing, 'Round About Midnight,
Milestones, Kind Of Blue, ESP, Plug Nickle and Miles Ahead shouldn't even be
mentioned in the same breath with Coltrane's music...
please
Lalibela2
inspired music there is,since he has long been dead why don't you just enjoy
the music.Have a little bit of respect for the man and his family,especially
for his son Ravi who by all accounts is a decent young man who makes some
pretty good music.
David Beardsley
> On 15 Jul 1999 11:47:03 GMT, funki...@aol.comnospam (Mike C. )
> wrote:
>
> >Then why not prove it? Find me a GD tune where they can play and sing in tune,
> >and I will personally kiss you on the lips. Those guys were (and still are)
> >horrible, untrained, meandering, unfocused musicians, if you could even call
> >them musicians.
>
> You know, somebody with as closed a mind as yours, it doesn't matter
> what I suggest. I could tell you about Europe 72 and send you live
> tapes, but it would just be wasted on you. I am glad that there
> aren't many people with your attitude. It's a shame, because you're
> missing out on a lot of great music, but that's your problem. And
> closed-mindedness like yours is definitely a problem.
>
> I do note, however, that Alphonso Johnson, Billy Cobham, Jimmy Herring
> and T. Lavitz seem to disagree with you about the Dead's compositional
> skills, and I daresay that unless you're some kind of musical god
> slumming on the internet, you probably weren't a member of Weather
> Report.
When was T.Lavitz a member of Weather Report?
--
* D a v i d B e a r d s l e y
* xou...@virtulink.com
*
* J u x t a p o s i t i o n E z i n e
* M E L A v i r t u a l d r e a m house monitor
*
* http://www.virtulink.com/immp/lookhere.htm
McMahon
>Yeah?!?! I mean, Cookin', Workin', Steamin', Relaxing, 'Round About
Midnight,
>Milestones, Kind Of Blue, ESP, Plug Nickle and Miles Ahead shouldn't even
be
>mentioned in the same breath with Coltrane's music...
>
>please
I can't speak for the 'apostrophe' albums on Prestige (will buy them once
they are available in some sort of box form), but the others you mentioned
just don't have a certain element that makes Coltrane's music so powerful,
for me. I enjoy KOB, ESP, Plugged Nickel, etc, but to be honest, I'm not
sure if some of these (Plugged Nickel for instance) would be quite as highly
rated if the musician's name on the cover wasn't Miles Davis. Flame away.
--
Murph
JGoodpast
>rated if the musician's name on the cover wasn't Miles Davis. Flame away.
>
Why flame?? With such a rediculous statement. Don't forget that Coltrane plays
on most of what I mentioned.
Michael Fitzgerald
wrote:
>I can't speak for the 'apostrophe' albums on Prestige (will buy them once
>they are available in some sort of box form)
These have been available since 1987 as part of an 8-CD boxed set
called "Miles Davis - Chronicle: The Complete Prestige Recordings"
Mike
McMahon
>Why flame?? With such a rediculous statement. Don't forget that Coltrane
plays
>on most of what I mentioned.
Not on ESP or Plugged Nickel, obviously. Hearing Coltrane with Miles (except
in the case of the Stockholm 1960 material) just makes me want to listen to
Coltrane's own, more meaningful stuff...
--
Murph
Jack Woker
> > their idols?
> >
> > jack
> >
> >
> Jack, Your post surprises me. I'm not a Dead or Zappa fan, and they are
> the farthest from being MY idols. Are you saying I'm hostile and insulting
> because I posted a hope that a marathon Dead-Zappa controversy was not in
> the making? I happen to agree with what you said, but your comment is
> misdirected.
My comment was not directed at you, Steve, and I realized after I sent
it that it could have been taken that way. It was meant to comment on
the thread as a whole, and should have been directed at the Dead
defenders. My apologies.
jack
Marc Sabatella
>JGoodpast wrote in message <19990718134626...@ng-cn1.aol.com>...
>>Why flame?? With such a rediculous statement. Don't forget that Coltrane
>plays
>>on most of what I mentioned.
>
>Not on ESP or Plugged Nickel, obviously.
True, and it is perhaps not a coincidence that these are among my
favorite Miles albums. While I agree Coltrane was at his best on his
own, he never did anything even remotely like what Miles' band with
Wayne, Herbie, Ron, & Tony were up to - harmonically and rhythmically,
no one else was doing anything like that either. This is not to say it
was "better" than what Coltrane was doing at the time, just different,
and equally valid.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Check out my latest CD, "Second Course"
Available on Cadence Jazz Records
Also "A Jazz Improvisation Primer", Scores, & More:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
SwingDoug
>own, he never did anything even remotely like what Miles' band with
>Wayne, Herbie, Ron, & Tony were up to - harmonically and rhythmically,
True. Trane's music was far less contrived and cerebral.
JGoodpast
Jack Woker
I disagree, Doug. Recently I acquired the Coltrane Impulse boxed set
of his complete Impulse studio recordings, and for the first time I was
struck by how often the original quartet went for similar motifs,
perhaps in search of another "My Favorite Things". There seem to be
just too many modal waltzes on a chordless droning vamp for comfort, at
least to these ears, which have known this music for many years in the
original LP's.
By the same token, I have known the Miles material just as long, yet it
still sounds fresh and vital, even if the next generation of musicians
have driven this style into the ground. I don't hear this music as being
contrived. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with cerebral;
this just means that it has appeal to the intellect.
jack
tst...@businessobjects.com
robs...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> [...] In the
> 90s and late 80s, exceptional jazz musicians
> sat in with the Dead, playing in front of 20,000
> fans, more than hundreds of jazz club gigs
> combined.
WOW!!! That MUST have been good!!!
;-)
- Tom Storer
"When you're swinging, swing some more." - Thelonious Monk
void
>
>My comment was not directed at you, Steve, and I realized after I sent
>it that it could have been taken that way. It was meant to comment on
>the thread as a whole, and should have been directed at the Dead
>defenders. My apologies.
All of them? 'Cause I thought I kept my posts pretty rational.
--
Ben
Wanna buy some bandwidth cheap? New York, London, Paris?
-- shady connectivity dealer to Anthony DeBoer
Jack Woker
> >the thread as a whole, and should have been directed at the Dead
> >defenders. My apologies.
>
> All of them? 'Cause I thought I kept my posts pretty rational.
Maybe not all of them, just the ones who got nasty.
jack
Nordwell, Kurt (BNR:BNRTP:3I38)
Funny, I thought the only person who got "nasty" was the original
if-you-see-talent-I'll-kiss-your-lips poster. All the dead
defenders were fairly rational, a little feverent (is that the right word?),
but rational.
Peace,
Kurt
Roger Williams
> Sounds like an apocryphal suburban jazz myth to me. The music
> on that album is strange, but understandable. The music is too
> well organized and the musicianship is tight, so it's hard for
> me to believe that they were high.
Well ... yes, and? Being on acid doesn't preclude conceiving, writing,
or performing music, "tight" or otherwise. In fact, veteran acid eaters
I've known have a habit of honing their precision to almost unbelievable
levels while tripping their asses off.
--
{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} \|/
{} RogerW rog...@newsguy.com {} 0< -- parrot.net!
{} http://www.parrot.net ad...@parrot.net {} ^^^^(*)^^^^
{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} ^^ / \ ^^
Jason Witherspoon
swin...@aol.com (SwingDoug) wrote:
> >Coltrane was at his best on his
> >own, he never did anything even remotely like what Miles' band with
> >Wayne, Herbie, Ron, & Tony were up to - harmonically and rhythmically,
>
> True. Trane's music was far less contrived and cerebral.
For me, 'Trane never got up to anything as spellbinding as "Circle in the
Round", say, from that classic quintet. But my Miles-worship really &
truly begins w/_In a Silent Way_ & ends w/_Agartha_, so obviously I'm
coming at this from a different side than Murph & SwingDoug.
--
Jason Witherspoon
http://www.best.com/~arzachel
McMahon
> I disagree, Doug. Recently I acquired the Coltrane Impulse boxed set
>of his complete Impulse studio recordings, and for the first time I was
>struck by how often the original quartet went for similar motifs,
>perhaps in search of another "My Favorite Things". There seem to be
>just too many modal waltzes on a chordless droning vamp for comfort, at
>least to these ears, which have known this music for many years in the
>original LP's.
Too many modal waltzes? a) That's not possible IMO :), and b) I don't think
there are that many -- Greensleeves & Chim Chim Cheree are the only tunes
that at all remind me of My Favorite Things, and the improvisation in both
sounds to me far more explorational than the relatively conservative My
Favorite Things.
>By the same token, I have known the Miles material just as long, yet it
>still sounds fresh and vital, even if the next generation of musicians
>have driven this style into the ground. I don't hear this music as being
>contrived. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with cerebral;
>this just means that it has appeal to the intellect.
I do sometimes hear Miles' music as contrived. Particularly the
'groundbreaking' stuff like Bitches Brew -- I think he innovated for
notoriety's sake (pure speculation, though I got to talk to Herbie Hancock a
while back about this, and he both agreed and disagreed to a point), and
some of the results seem less an honest exploration into his soul than
Coltrane's recordings do. At the same time, while this makes Coltrane's
music far more meaningful for myself, I've found that I go through periods
of active and inactive Coltrane listening, while my daily appreciation of
Miles' stuff is fairly regular. Less intense, more cerebral, I guess. Oh,
and Coltrane had a better drummer.
--
Murph
SwingDoug
>music far more meaningful for myself, I've found that I go through periods
>of active and inactive Coltrane listening, while my daily appreciation of
>Miles' stuff is fairly regular.
I have heard this from many people, and I have had the same experience. I go
through periods where I am immersed in Trane, and then don't check him out for
a while. As for Miles, I listen to the 50's stuff quite regularly, especially
the stuff with Philly Joe. The Tony Williams era...well...almost never. I
studied that music to learn the required concepts, but overall those records
get on my nerves.
>Oh,
>and Coltrane had a better drummer.
>
Amen.
Jack Woker
> some of the results seem less an honest exploration into his soul than
> Coltrane's recordings do. At the same time, while this makes Coltrane's
> music far more meaningful for myself, I've found that I go through periods
> of active and inactive Coltrane listening, while my daily appreciation of
> Miles' stuff is fairly regular. Less intense, more cerebral, I guess. Oh,
> and Coltrane had a better drummer.
Terms like "honest exploration" are very subjective. We are comparing
apples and oranges here. Music by different musicians touches us in
different ways, and I just don't see the point of drawing these
competitive comparisons. Each of them was tremendously influential. I
happen to prefer Miles, only because I believe that there is a wider
variety of music in his body of work, and I'm not even considering the
electric period, most of which I don't care for. Listen to Miles' solo
on "Stella By Starlight" on the live "My Funny Valentine" album and tell
me this is contrived. It is the height of drama.
Better drummer? You're entitled to your opinion - I don't see it that
way. Then again, I'm assuming you intended a smiley face.
jack
JGoodpast
that order... so I love 'em both.
>. Oh,
>and Coltrane had a better drummer.
Tony Williams rules. PERIOD... imho, but i'm right.
john
Todd Bishop
JGoodpast wrote:
What is this? We get these discussions between high school kids in
rec.music.makers.percussion, only they're usually arguing over the relative
ruling-qualities of Tommy Lee and Neil Peart.
--
Todd Bishop
www.originarts.com (Flatland)
www.users.uswest.net/~tb67
SwingDoug
I agree. He was a great rock drummer.
JGoodpast
>JGoodpast wrote:
>
>> ok, we all have opinions, for me, it's Miles, Coltrane, Parker, and Mingus
>in
>> that order... so I love 'em both.
>>
>> >. Oh,
>> >and Coltrane had a better drummer.
>>
>> Tony Williams rules. PERIOD... imho, but i'm right.
>>
>> john
>
> What is this? We get these discussions between high school kids in
>rec.music.makers.percussion,
sarcasm
john
JGoodpast
>
>I agree. He was a great rock drummer.
Now Swing... Tony's work(along with Elvin Jones) in the 60's was a revalation
to me... The fact that he was a tremendous fusion drummer shouldn't cloud the
fact that he was one of the few best, and mosty influencial, jazz drummers to
ever come along.
john
Blueallen
(first quoting other posts):
The last couple of posts that Doug has made to rmb have caused me to wonder if
he's trolling or whether someone has illegally gained access to his on-line
account and is posting things under his name in an attempt to discredit him.
IMHO, the music that the Miles Davis "second quintet" made is among the
greatest work in jazz. I find it challenging, thoughtful, and as fresh today
as it was 30 years ago. It doesn't make me "nervous" at all. In fact, I find
that an interesting reaction. Maybe it goes against some set pre-conceptions
of what jazz should be that some folks have.
Again in my opinion, Williams' drum work is a large part of the music's
success. Now it's my personal feeling that the tragedy of Tony Williams is
that he peaked at the age of 18-21 and the rest of his career was
anti-climatic. But other folks surely disagree with that.
But a "great rock drummer?" Anyone who says that has really not listened to
(or is unable to hear) the great work with Miles and numerous Blue Note
sessions with Jackie McLean, Wayne Shorter, Eric Dolphy's "Out to Lunch," etc.
And before the flaming responses, let me add I like Elvin Jones' work, too.
Different (drum) strokes is all.
Fred Allen
Sahir Islam
> And in all seriousness, Tony was a great rock drummer, too!
This got me thinking, was there any drummer besides Tony Williams who could
play bop, rock, and avant-garde with equivalent virtuosity?
SwingDoug
>if
>he's trolling or whether someone has illegally gained access to his on-line
>account and is posting things under his name in an attempt to discredit him.
Neither one. Of course Tony is one of the true originals and greats of jazz
drumming. Only a fool would dispute that. But I still can't stand his playing.
And I still think Elvin pipes him. But that's just me...
scottmcf
played as tastefully as anyone on some of that stuff by his Lifetime band
when Holdsworth was in it. I listened to a couple of tracks from that
era and was really surprised at how Williams was able to master
rock/fusion playing which has so little in common with his drumming circa
the 1960's or on the first few Lifetime records.
scottmcf
Sahir Islam wrote:
>
> SwingDoug <swin...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > And in all seriousness, Tony was a great rock drummer, too!
>
Josh Kortbein
: SwingDoug <swin...@aol.com> wrote in message
: > And in all seriousness, Tony was a great rock drummer, too!
: This got me thinking, was there any drummer besides Tony Williams who could
: play bop, rock, and avant-garde with equivalent virtuosity?
Though I haven't heard much of his jazz and fusion stuff, and the jazz
I have heard was pretty uptight, Bill Bruford might fit the bill.
Also Terry Bozzio.
Josh
--
Oceania is at war with Eurasia.
Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.
fer...@usa.net
think that Vinnie Colaiuta (who was strongly influenced by Tony) is one
that can play ANY style well. He really can swing like a mofo.
Bruford is the same, he can play anything. I'd also give a nod to Paul
Wertico, Omar Hakim and Greg Bissonnette.
Anybody catch Tony's playing on Public Image Limited's "Album"? great
stuff (along with Ginger Baker)
In article <7njigq$q0p$5...@news.iastate.edu>,
Robert J. Dewar
Robert j Dewar
scottmcf <scot...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:379D63...@erols.com...
> Jack deJohnette deserves a nod.
>