Racism against white musicians
Amos Omondi
way he does, there isn't really that much to debate.
J. David Holmes
Amos Omondi <Amos....@comp.vuw.ac.nz> wrote:
>As long as a guy like Harry Connick Jr. continues to rake it in the
>way he does, there isn't really that much to debate.
Mmmmm... how about the way Kenny G. is (deservingly) trashed, but
Grover Washington is not.
--Dave
GJuke
>way he does, there isn't really that much to debate.
I have to say that-- that's a pretty lame, low-blow that seems like an
attempt to reduce this discussion, the music of a real talent like Harry
C., and white musicians in general to non-existent/"not worth discussing"
status. That's not very cool.
GJ
P.S.-- Why are people ALWAYS, CONSTANTLY upset over someone else's success
and good fortune? Yes, lot's of people in the world deserve a break too,
but "making it" is more than talent. And when someone _is_ successful,
they are slammed and flamed....I don't get it.
Amos Omondi
>>As long as a guy like Harry Connick Jr. continues to rake it in the
>>way he does, there isn't really that much to debate.
>
>I have to say that-- that's a pretty lame, low-blow that seems like an
>attempt to reduce this discussion, the music of a real talent like Harry
>C., and white musicians in general to non-existent/"not worth discussing"
>status. That's not very cool.
>
Stop right there! Don't draw such dubious conclusions from what
I wrote. For the record: I don't think skin colour has any
connection with the ability to do anything. Bill Evans (the
pianist) was a genius, and had he done as well as Mr. Connick,
I would have nothing to say about it -- other than that he
deserved it. Keith Jarrett does well and deserves it. Kenny
Wheeler, Joe Lovano, Jack Walrath ... are all musicians for
who I have the highest respect.
Nevertheless, America being what it is, any honest person would
have to admit that no black jazz musician with a competence
comparable to that of Mr. Connick would have done anywhere near
one-millionth as well as he has. Mr. Connick is the Chet Baker
of our time, with the difference that Baker had a bit more talent.
I realise that what constitutes "real talent" is a subjective
matter, but I have found few people who did not agree that
both the piano playing and singing of Connick are not particularly
extraordinary.
cor...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
>>As long as a guy like Harry Connick Jr. continues to rake it in the
>>way he does, there isn't really that much to debate.
>
>
> GJ
>
> P.S.-- Why are people ALWAYS, CONSTANTLY upset over someone else's success
I like Harry C. a lot, or at least I liked his 1st Columbia record and an early
performance I saw in Boston very much. Don't care much for his newer pop
stuff, but some of his later jazz work suggested to me that he was running out
of jazz ideas and inspiration anyway, so I'm happy he found something gainful
to do with himself.
I also deplore racism in all its forms, and I urge everyone to resist the
cheesy and obvious attempt at conceptual highjacking constituted by the "black
people can't be racist" argument. It's a dim, heavy-handed, and rather
Orwellian attempt to exempt a class of people from moral criticism by making
that criticism unthinkable.
That said, I still do think that there is a tiny kernel of truth in the idea
that some white musicians, thanks in part to their race, have succeeded in jazz
out of proportion to their purely musical appeal (if there is such a thing).
You can't generalize: some whites (e.g. Keith Jarrett) have got exactly the
acclaim they deserved (I pick Jarrett because so many people are unaware of his
ethnicity); and some, like Lennie Tristano and Bill Holman, deserve more
acclaim than they get. But would Harry Connick be as famous and marketable as
he is if he weren't a handsome young white man? I doubt it. Chet Baker was a
fine musician, even great, but obviously some of his (largely squandered)
success originated in his bohemian aura, his status as a photogenic young white
man navigating America's racial demimonde. And I think that this kind of
"young man with a horn" halo has surrounded many other white musicians since
the beginning in jazz.
White jazz musicians, like white rock 'n' rollers, automatically acquire at
least a little romantic "rebel" status because of the mixed-race origins of
their musical language. I don't think this should be a cause for resentment,
but I think it's crazy to ignore it.
One last thing: the poet Issa says that "The children imitating the cormorants/
are more beautiful than the real cormorants". This seems a bit extreme to me,
and of course it is only a metaphor, but I do think that a successful imitation
of a foreign cultural form, or, better still, a successful effort to
participate creatively and intelligently in such a form, is a special kind of
accomplishment. Authenticity is a special and valuable thing too, and I think
it's OK to take it into account and to give extra bonus points for it when
you're listening to music; but I also think there's nothing wrong with giving a
few extra bonus points of a different kind to the American who has actually
troubled herself to learn French before heading for Paris, the 19-year-old
black saxophonist who can actually dip into Ben Webster's bag of tricks, or the
white boy who leaves Oklahoma for Harlem and actually learns to trade fours
with Charlie Parker.
Harvey
Harvey Cormier
Philosophy Dept.
University of Texas @ Austin
#! rnews 2412
Path: news.nic.surfnet.nl!sun4nl!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mathworks.com!gatech!news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!soap.news.pipex.net!pipex!dish.news.pipex.net!pipex!dircon!byteback!will
From: wi...@byteback.dircon.co.uk (will)
Newsgroups: comp.bbs.waffle
Subject: Re: UUCICO
Message-ID: <9R0s9c...@byteback.dircon.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 95 21:08:07 BST
References: <3v0jh8$3...@sake.wwa.com>
Lines: 48
Randy Burgess <cel...@miso.wwa.com> writes:
> Looking for someone who might know what they are doing.
> I currently don't.
i *think* i do, but i probably don't either! ;-)
> I have also managed to get uucico to log on to dialup connect pass name
> and password and all like that. And it appears to be sending and
> recieveing packets.
>
> However, I never see anthing. Niether to nor from.
>
> OH. one important thing. My domain name may not be completely set yet.
> that, I know will screw up incoming mail. However, I didn't think that
> would bother outgoing mail.
at first glance, this looks to me like host problems. have you checked
with your feed?
the other thing is, have you completely got the hang of the path of
messages, in and out? i remember being confused about this for a while,
but once you understand the different steps, it's fairly easy to trace
a msg through and see what happens.
firstly, when you send a msg, waffle puts three files in your
\spool\<hostname> directory (i'm assuming dos here, i dunno what it
does with unix). one of these files - the one with the .cmd extension -
tells uucico to send the other two to your host. the other two
contain the msg and a command for your host's rmail to send the msg
to it's destination. if when you poll uucico says it's sent these
two, it has - they've gone - and if they don't arrive, it's the host's
incoming is more or less the reverse. uucico tells you which files
are coming in (this is all assuming the uu.visual: level in
waffle\system\static is high enough) if you just run uucico (not poll.bat)
on its own, you'll see these files in your \spool\<hostname> directory.
then if you run uuxqt on its own, it'll tell you it's doing them and
you should see the msg in your \user\<username>\mailbox.f file - and
you should be able to read it as mail when you run waffle.
it's a bit of a tricky business until you get the hang of it, but i hope
this will help a bit.
good luck
GJuke
>Grover Washington is not.
>--Dave
Dave,
Let's not get stuck in that "Grover" quagmire again....
GJ
Thomas F Brown
>
> Stop right there! Don't draw such dubious conclusions from what
> I wrote. For the record: I don't think skin colour has any
> connection with the ability to do anything. Bill Evans (the
> pianist) was a genius, and had he done as well as Mr. Connick,
> I would have nothing to say about it -- other than that he
> deserved it.
Hmmm. Bill Evans did pretty damn well. If he had hit the scene looking
as young and cute as harry, and singing as well, and not having a jones,
and having an extrovert personality, he probably could have had a
similar career.
>
> Nevertheless, America being what it is, any honest person would
> have to admit that no black jazz musician with a competence
> comparable to that of Mr. Connick would have done anywhere near
> one-millionth as well as he has.
Apparently you've never heard Najee, George Howard, Jonathan Butler,
Norman Brown--the list goes on a long way. You don't seem to know
very much about this country at all.
Mr. Connick is the Chet Baker
> of our time, with the difference that Baker had a bit more talent.
> I realise that what constitutes "real talent" is a subjective
> matter, but I have found few people who did not agree that
> both the piano playing and singing of Connick are not particularly
> extraordinary.
Well, both Chet and Harry have something else going on besides talent.
GJuke
>have to admit that no black jazz musician with a competence
>comparable to that of Mr. Connick would have done anywhere near
>I realise that what constitutes "real talent" is a subjective
>matter, but I have found few people who did not agree that
>both the piano playing and singing of Connick are not particularly
>extraordinary.
Understood, but your post seemed to imply something totally different;
especially when you dismiss something with one or two sentences.
Also, I like Harry, and I know others who do, so I guess it's all taste.
Regarding Chet Baker (this will probably start a major firestorm) I never
thought he had much to say. And that "singing"! But I would never use Chet
Baker, or some untalented black musician, as an example to dismiss a
concept (the racism hotbed) out-of-hand.
And certainly not because he/they "made too much money"....
GJ
TornCot
reputation has suffered because he is perhaps the most overrecorded artist
in all of jazz (most overrecorded, not most recorded, which would probably
go to Ellington or Armstrong or Goodman). The fact is that at his best
Baker reached heights that I believe Connick will never approach. Baker
was a trumpet master and I even enjoy some of his vocals ("Everything
Happens to Me" "My Funny Valentine"). Baker's not my favorite trumpeter-
personally I'd put Kenney Dorham, Lee Morgan, Art Farmer, and many others
above him, maybe even Tom Harrell. But at his best Baker was really
something special.
I met Connick once and he's a hell of a raconteur. As long as you're
willing to put up with his ego and let him dominate the conversation he's
fun to talk to. As a pianist though I find him highly derivative(Monk,
Garner, etc.) As a singer, I just don't understand his appeal at all.
Dave "Poniers King" Krugman
Read my new book, "Iguanas, They Are My Friends"
john reilly
>
>I object to your saying that noone trashes Grover Washington. I trash
him
>all the time : ) In this newsgroup I posted that most of his material
is
>nothing more than worthless crap, and I'll say the same about Najee,
>Gerald Albright, and George Howard. There's just as many black guys
>putting out unadulterated musical spew as there are white guys. It may
>well be true that Grover is capable of making music much superior to
>Kenny's but he has not put much of it on record. Long live Frank Wess!
>
>Dave "Poniers King" Krugman
FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL TAKE THIS DISCUSSION OUT OF HERE MUSIC ESPECIALLY
JAZZ SHOULD BE ABOVE THIS DRIVEL!!!
Amos Omondi
Thomas F Brown <tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> wrote:
>
>Apparently you've never heard Najee, George Howard, Jonathan Butler,
>Norman Brown--the list goes on a long way. You don't seem to know
>very much about this country at all.
I specifically referred to JAZZ musicians, not people who
have jazz musicians as friends.
>
>
>Well, both Chet and Harry have something else going on besides talent.
>
Thank You. This was the very point I was trying to make!
Amos Omondi
J. David Holmes <jdho...@access5.digex.net> wrote:
>
>Mmmmm... how about the way Kenny G. is (deservingly) trashed, but
>Grover Washington is not.
>
Most of the bashings Kenny G gets on r.m.b are, in my
opinion, undeserved. His music, whatever it is, seems
to be enjoyed by a lot of people, and to me that makes it
valid music. Whether or not it is jazz is not relevant,
unless he actively promotes it as such, and I have no
reason to believe that he does.
People make arguments like: "It is misleading for people
trying to find out about jazz". The way I see it, anyone
who really wants to find out about jazz will manage to do
so if they work enough at it, whether or not they they
start with Kenny G.
The way I see it, most of the bashings of Kenny G are
just another reflection of the elitist attitudes that
quite a few jazz fans have: They can't imagine anything
that is not jazz, and heaven help if anything of the sort
is confused by others for jazz.
In summary: Mr. G seems to do a good job at his thing,
and while that thing is not for me, I say to him and his
fans: Enjoy!
TornCot
Thomas F Brown
>>
>>Apparently you've never heard Najee, George Howard, Jonathan Butler,
>>Norman Brown--the list goes on a long way. You don't seem to know
>>very much about this country at all.
>
> I specifically referred to JAZZ musicians, not people who
> have jazz musicians as friends.
These guys are just as much jazz musicians as HC. And they are
all black, of mediocre talent, and very successful. You thesis is wrong.
Charles George
Jr. when I hear on a cd or cassette anything that lets me know whether
you have any talent yourself.
I find it very chick now days to put persons down, without, proving that
they can do anything better musically.
On Grover Washington's recording, All My Tomorrows you can hear playing
that resembles that of John Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, and many others.
The fact that he can play behind others shows how much talent the person
really has. It often is harder to work as a sideman than to be a leader
in many situations.
The fact that he can make money also shows he knows what it takes to do
so.
---
þ SLMR 2.1a þ All wiyht. Rho sritched mg kegtops awound?
Josh
im not sure if the question about talent was pointed
at me , or not since i usually get on as RMiller73
ive got my own lp , and id be happy to send it out
to anyone who wants to see wether ive got the backing
to be talking about Mr Washington, you can get it, listen
to it, and give your report to everyone here in the bluenote
newsgroup.
send me email for info about HOW.
josh
Marc Sabatella
> Keith Jarrett does well and deserves it.
This has come up before, but - what is his racial ancestry? Sure looks to be
African to me.
> Nevertheless, America being what it is, any honest person would
> have to admit that no black jazz musician with a competence
> comparable to that of Mr. Connick would have done anywhere near
> one-millionth as well as he has.
Really? Bobby McFerrin, George Benson, and Al Jarreau spring immediately to
mind - all reasonably talented musicians making millions of dollars doing music
designed for mass commercial appeal.
In any case, the existence of a few white musicians doing very well - better
than their talent might otherwise suggest - certainly does not contradict the
possibility that, in general, white musicians *might* be victims of racism in
the jazz world. No more than the existence of a few (overly) successful black
people contradicts the reality of racism in their respective occupations.
--
Marc Sabatella
--
ma...@fc.hp.com
http://www.fortnet.org/~marc/
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
TornCot
musician, Charles, but I do not think I have to be one to criticize a
player. I am a jazz fan and I believe I am a somewhat knowledgeable one
and I believe that this gives me the right to say what I feel about
someone's music. I didn't say that I could play sax better than Grover- I
can't play sax at all. If I dislike someone's music intensely do I have to
keep my mouth shut about it just because I am not a musician. I don't
recall this newsgroup being confined solely to musicians, and I believe
that musicians may suffer if they only take critiques from their peers
seriously. I found Charles' post to be extremely arr5ogant. I own hundreds
of jazz recordingss and I'd like to think that I got enough knowledge from
them to comment intelligently on the music!
A Very Angry Dave "Blue Gourami" Krugman
2 jazz pagans
>
>This has come up before, but - what is his racial ancestry? Sure
>looks to be African to me.
Apparently not. There's a biography of KJ available in bookstores (I
don't have it and don't recall the name), and it gives his ancestry as
largely Hungarian, I think. Pennsylvania Hungarian, as opposed to
Pennsylvania Dutch. I saw him in his Afro-with-Charles-Lloyd days, but
apparently it's just curly hair.
- JRB
Larry Lewicki x3469,data-acquisition
<:>In article <3v2ucs$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, GJuke <gj...@aol.com> wrote:
<:>>>As long as a guy like Harry Connick Jr. continues to rake it in the
<:>>
<:>>attempt to reduce this discussion, the music of a real talent like Harry
<:>>C., and white musicians in general to non-existent/"not worth discussing"
<:>>status. That's not very cool.
<:>
<:> Stop right there! Don't draw such dubious conclusions from what
<:> connection with the ability to do anything. Bill Evans (the
<:> pianist) was a genius, and had he done as well as Mr. Connick,
<:> I would have nothing to say about it -- other than that he
<:> who I have the highest respect.
<:> Nevertheless, America being what it is, any honest person would
Alright - I can't take it anymore. In my book racism is making an
decision based on someone else's race. Prejudice is making a judgement
based on a preconceived notion (typically based on race) as opposed
to the *real* data - or giving the person a chance. The statement
above "America being what it is" is pretty vague but is potentially
shows a strong prejudice and maybe it isn't racist but it definitely
is "nationalist". I have lived in several different locations in the
states - Chicago, rural Iowa - now northern California. I have not
noticed a particular "America" emerging. Maybe I am too close to the
topic but I wonder what Amos is referring to and what exactly his
observations are that have lead him to make such a generalization
about a country of ~280 million people. To me this statement is
inappropriate in the context of this thread.
I suspect that the reason that Connick has done as well as he has
is that people buy the recordings - I don't - but lots of others seem
too. I don't think this is because he is white - anymore than I think
people buy Natalie Cole records because she is black or than people
of 10-15 years ago bought George Benson's recording of Breezin' or
On Broadway - because he was black. Amos what is your point here?
Do you have any data to back your conjectures up?
Are you going to tell us that Wynton Marsalis has gotten all the
PBS specials here in the racist USA because he's black? Or Branford
got his Tonight show gig because he was black?
If you read the Billboard charts of revenue per recording - there
is large representation of black performers (unless you read the
country or classical listings). Jazz, R&B - Urban Contemporary
sales in the US seem to be pretty color blind to me at least.
Is there data available in New Zealand about the States that
suggests the contrary?
I am not trying to suggest there is no racism here (or that I haven't
witnessed racism and hiring practices first hand). I definitely have.
But using blanket statements regarding a whole country is a pretty
silly way to dismiss prejudice and racism.
L^2
<:> comparable to that of Mr. Connick would have done anywhere near
<:> one-millionth as well as he has. Mr. Connick is the Chet Baker
<:> of our time, with the difference that Baker had a bit more talent.
<:> I realise that what constitutes "real talent" is a subjective
<:> matter, but I have found few people who did not agree that
<:> both the piano playing and singing of Connick are not particularly
<:> extraordinary.
<:>
<:>
<:>
---
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Larry Lewicki | National Semiconductor |Opinions are mine and in *NO* |
*l...@galaxy.nsc.com | Santa Clara, CA |way represent National Semi. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TornCot
to be my opinion. I would never impose my taste on any members of this
group or anyone else for that matter.
Dave "Blue Gourami" Krugman
Charles George
JO>im not sure if the question about talent was pointed
JO>at me , or not since i usually get on as RMiller73
JO>ive got my own lp , and id be happy to send it out
JO>to anyone who wants to see wether ive got the backing
JO>to be talking about Mr Washington, you can get it, listen
JO>to it, and give your report to everyone here in the bluenote
JO>newsgroup.
JO>send me email for info about HOW.
JO>josh
I put the question originally to Torn, since he is always criticizing
any artist who is popular. I wanted to find out whether he could play
himself, since I find it very popular to put down others. This was not
meant as a flame, as much as, why this trend is so popular in this news
group?
I play the guitar, harmonica, and am learning to play the electric bass
guitar. I find that I prefer hearing what artists someone likes and why
over who they don't with their put downs of them.
I play a lot of Blues and Classical pieces; however; I like Jazz and
play it when I am with the right people.
I also have found accompniment can often times be harder than being a
leader. I find that this can also be the reversed, its like I heard
Freddie Hubbard backing Wes Montgomery, and went and bought an album of
his where he was a leader and felt disappointed. However; I am not a
trumpet player or a saxophonist, so I tend to realize my views are
arbitrary, and so I could never say that Freddie Hubbard is not good as
a leader, in fact a customer at my store tells me how much he likes his
playing.
I must admit I like the popular Jazz more, since that is what I am
usually asked to play for others; however; I have several recordings of
work by Charlie Parker.
What I find annoying, is if a person mentions they like Kenny G., Earl
Klugh, Grover Washington, etc. then the response is that the person
knows nothing about Jazz and that they are dumb and often times other
explitives are used. I have been listening to Jazz since 1968 when I
first got a Miles Davis lp at Goodwill for 50 cents, I would hunt for
Jazz albums since I was in High School and did not have a big budget;
however; I got for 5 cents an Lp in mint condition by Django Rheinhardt.
Personally, Grover Washington Jr. may not be an innovator, but heck to
be good doesn't require to be an innovator like Miles Davis, etc.
What I wanted to find in the group here was a balance, I find that
certain critics seem to never offer advice only criticism.
Charles George
---
ş SLMR 2.1a ş Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch!
Charles George
tend to put down any Jazz artist that is popular.
I noticed that you also seem to assume, as do several others, that those
who like Grover Washington, Jr. and other Contemporary artists of Jazz
have no knowledge of Jazz. This is not the truth though, since I have
been listening to and collecting Jazz since I was in Highschool in 1968
and got my first Miles Davis recordings at a Goodwill store for 50
cents. I also picked up a Django Reinhardt lp for 5 cents.
I also went to a department store and out of the bargain bin got
Thelonious Monk Live In Italy. I also wanted to bring up that I find
that "put downs" tend to lead more to division than gains in getting
Jazz heard by others. I have in the past worked as a Radio Announcer, I
was on a Rock station, but by careful selections of recordings I was
able to present music by Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Herbie Mann, etc.
I found it also got me more requests for more Jazz on the station. I
think artists like Grover Washington have helped lead many to the Jazz
artists that you claim to be more talented. Also I find some critics I
find too serious anyway, for example Gene Les would try to analyze a
tune when the best thing to do was just listen and enjoy.
---
ş SLMR 2.1a ş I got the Blues when WLAC went to Religion
Amos Omondi
Larry Lewicki x3469,data-acquisition <l...@galaxy.nsc.com> wrote:
>
>is "nationalist". I have lived in several different locations in the
>states - Chicago, rural Iowa - now northern California. I have not
>noticed a particular "America" emerging.
No, it's not emerging. It's been there for quite a while.
For a black person, there has only ever been one America:
one in which no matter what you do, at the end of the day
you're still a nigger.
>Maybe I am too close to the
>topic
I suspect that this is so.
>I am not trying to suggest there is no racism here (or that I haven't
>witnessed racism and hiring practices first hand). I definitely have.
>But using blanket statements regarding a whole country is a pretty
>silly way to dismiss prejudice and racism.
>
I don't know what the whole point of this thread was to start with,
but I'll say this: A segment of America that has been getting
the shaft for 400+ years is being asked to weep for a few people
who may have found that a little payback is not that sweet. It
may happen, but I'm not holding my breath.
R.m.b readers would like to believe that jazz, simply because
they like it, can be totally separated from the rest of real
life. Good luck!
Amos Omondi
john reilly <sha...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL TAKE THIS DISCUSSION OUT OF HERE MUSIC ESPECIALLY
>JAZZ SHOULD BE ABOVE THIS DRIVEL!!!
Why should music be separated from the realities of everyday
like? And what is so special about jazz?
Josh
'charles...@hughsoft.com (Charles George)' wrote:
>What I find annoying, is if a person mentions they like Kenny G., Earl
>Klugh, Grover Washington, etc. then the response is that the person
>knows nothing about Jazz and that they are dumb and often times other
try to stop my own "attitude" belching.
to be honest, i own about 6 Sanborn CD's four Grover albums
and 1 grover cd, and 1 kenny G CD,
after i stopped buying those artists, i got into people like
Mike Stern, Michael Breker, Bob Berg, Yellow Jackets, and
Spyro Gyra, and ill even throw modern Pat Metheny stuff.
This later stuff i still listen to from time to time,
but now I buy "Monk" Jarrett" "Miles" Bird" "Coltrane" "Shorter"
"b Holliday" "Herbie" "DeJonette".
these i had some of before when i was buying other stuff.
i feel these are not superior, just purer.
there's less comotion and marketing , and more music.
why should i spend a dime on others "concert wise or CD wise"
when i could be spending it on the plethera of purity out there.
well, i truthfully wouldn't say the others are not worth buying
but i do see it as a compramise of art, for the comfort of something
that flows easy , and effortless into my ears, with no depth,
which of course is liike the music of artists who are more pop related.
maybe its a phase everone has to pass through stop at and maybe
some remain there and have no reason to go further.
but i would sell , and plan to sell, all my spyro gyra and grover
and sanborn for the price of just one more coltrane or jarrett
album.
its not a question of superiority or deserving (cause artist know the world
doesn't owe them anything for their imagination)
its a question of depth of spirit and expression that is held in a
particular
piece of music.
"Some has more some has less"
"Some is shallow some is priceless"
josh miller
R. Lynn Rardin
> Charles George <charles...@hughsoft.com> wrote:
>
> >Personally, I will believe that you are right about Grover Washington,
> >Jr. when I hear on a cd or cassette anything that lets me know whether
> >you have any talent yourself. I find it very chick now days to put persons
> >down, without, proving that they can do anything better musically.
>
> Marc is finally going to put out a CD by r.m.b readers.
> It will be interesting to see if all these people who
> make all these pronouncements on others can really cut it.
Gee, has the time for the every so often [but always too often] "you can't
criticize the music if you can't do better yourself" rolled around
already??
TornCot
you can't criticize him argument comes to the table. If there was any
truth to that statement there'd either be no postings in this group or it
would just be a propaganda group cheering on artists but never pointing
out how they might improve. My feeling is, and will always be, this, if
you love jazz and have listened to a reasonable amount of it, you bring
something to the table. There's no reason for us to saw a couple of feet
off the table because not all of us are master musicians.
Dave "Blue Gourami" Krugman
Amos Omondi
David J. Strauss
: Marc is finally going to put out a CD by r.m.b readers.
: make all these pronouncements on others can really cut it.
And please don't criticize a restaurant's food if you've never planted wheat.
Please don't criticize air pollution if you've never built a car.
And, for Heaven's sake, PLEASE don't criticize violent crime if you've
never committed one.
Thomas F Brown
>
>I put the question originally to Torn, since he is always criticizing
>any artist who is popular. I wanted to find out whether he could play
>himself, since I find it very popular to put down others.
I don't analyze music with my fingers. Whether or not I
can play is irrelevant. One can train the ears without
learning to play.
>leader. I find that this can also be the reversed, its like I heard
>Freddie Hubbard backing Wes Montgomery, and went and bought an album of
>his where he was a leader and felt disappointed.
Freddie was only 17 on that record with Wes. Some of his records
do stink, but most of the 60s dates on Bluenote are pretty good.
Amos Omondi
David J. Strauss <djs...@is.nyu.edu> wrote:
>
>And please don't criticize a restaurant's food if you've never planted wheat.
Not if you are a chef.
>
>Please don't criticize air pollution if you've never built a car.
Not if you make cars.
>
>And, for Heaven's sake, PLEASE don't criticize violent crime if you've
>never committed one.
Not if you do.
Just put the CD out, and let's see what the critics can do.
>
>
Keeho Kang -FT-~
..cut, cut...
: What I find annoying, is if a person mentions they like Kenny G., Earl
: Klugh, Grover Washington, etc. then the response is that the person
: knows nothing about Jazz and that they are dumb and often times other
: explitives are used.
Kenny G? Now, there's a guy who really bites the big one...
mmuuahahaahahahaaa...
Keeho
--
Intel, Corp.
5000 W. Chandler Blvd.
Chandler, AZ 85226
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu
:Larry Lewicki x3469,data-acquisition <l...@galaxy.nsc.com> wrote:
:>Maybe I am too close to the topic.
:
: I suspect that this is so.
And I suspect that you have already qualified yourself, through remarks in
your recent posts, to be too far from the topic.
: I don't know what the whole point of this thread was to start with,
Very simple. Let's talk about the issue of racism toward white jazz
musicians.
:R.m.b readers would like to believe that jazz, simply because
:they like it, can be totally separated from the rest of real[
:life. Good luck!
I suggest you find someone who might agree with this claim, otherwise not
say such idiotic things.
-Nils
Marc Sabatella
> In article <3v9539$4...@tadpole.fc.hp.com>,
> Marc Sabatella <ma...@sde.hp.com> wrote:
> >
> >Really? Bobby McFerrin, George Benson, and Al Jarreau spring immediately to
> >mind - all reasonably talented musicians making millions of dollars doing music
> >designed for mass commercial appeal.
> All of these people have more talent in their little fingers
> than 10 Connicks rolled into one.
This is *your* opinion, which may be as biased by race as anyone else's.
Note that Connick, long before his rise to famre, finished second to Marcus
Roberts at one of the Thelonious Monk Institute jazz piano competitions, so at
least some reasonably well-respected jazz musicians think Harry has some
talent.
In the end, though, when playing pop music for a pop music audience, what
defines "talent" is ability to sell records, and these guys all seem pretty
much equivalent to me, so I see no particular reason to begrudge any of them
their successes.
Charles George
TFB>can play is irrelevant. One can train the ears without
TFB>learning to play.
I did not mean to say you have to perform to enjoy Jazz or any musical
art form; however; a person who tells me a certain musician is poor will
cause me to want to know specifics, especially, if I have heard music
that was interesting. I am not sure how many have heard Grover
Washington Jr. on his recording All My Tomorrows. I find the playing
superb on the ballads. His playing reminds me of John Coltrane, Stan
Getz, Sonny Rollins on different passages.
Also since I play a couple of instruments, I have learned that what is a
simple passage on one maynot be so simple on the other/s I play, and
sometimes a passage that is difficult on one instrument is easier on
another instrument.
At the present time I play: guitar, harmonica, soprano recorder,
keyboard ( mainly for compositional uses where I don't want others to
hear me), and since March of last year the Electric Bass guitar. I am
taking lessons for the Electric Bass guitar from a local
musician/teacher who got his degree from North Texas State University.
I mainly play for friends and those at my church where I attend.
Actually, I always wanted to be a radio announcer and was until the
station I was with went defunct due to lack of listenere support.
Before that I was at a college station with a Rock format, and I would
slip in Jazz that was able to get sliped in past the station director.
TFB>>leader. I find that this can also be the reversed, its like I heard
TFB>>Freddie Hubbard backing Wes Montgomery, and went and bought an album of
TFB>>his where he was a leader and felt disappointed.
TFB>Freddie was only 17 on that record with Wes. Some of his records
TFB>do stink, but most of the 60s dates on Bluenote are pretty good.
My favorites on Bluenote are: Tunraround, Hank Mobley; and Sidewinder,
Lee Morgan. I wish I had more recordings by them but I am not sure
which I would like the best.
Actually, if someone tells me someone is not as enjoyable, I try to
follow since I only have so much money to spend on recordings.
I guess I tend to look for different things in a performance at
different times.
Like when I want to go to my Psychedlic period of Jazz my favorites to
play are: Dominoe, Roland Kirk; Memphis Underground, Herbie Mann.
While at other times I find myself playing over and over my recordings
of: Louis Armstrong, Bessie Smith, Billie Holiday.
When I was little my parents would take me to symphony concerts and
chamber music. They had me learn to play the violin which I gave up
since I found it hard to play; however; in Jr Highschool I started
singing and in 1968 got me a guitar as a Christmas present from my
parents, a Silvertone.
My father would play a lot of Classical music; however; he also would
play the Songbooks by Ella Fitzgerald, and I loved to hear an Lp by Fred
Astair.
---
ş SLMR 2.1a ş Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
Josh
'Amos....@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Amos Omondi)' wrote:
>
> Not if you do.
haha, that was damn funny!!
josh
Amos Omondi
<jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu> wrote:
>
>I suggest you find someone who might agree with this claim, otherwise not
>say such idiotic things.
>
Sorry Nils, I won't restrict myself to just things that people
agree with or find intelligent.
Expect more of the same from time to time.
Amos Omondi
What can I say ... I'm a funny guy.
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu
>I won't restrict myself to just things that people
>agree with or find intelligent.
>Expect more of the same from time to time.
OK, peace.
-Nils
Oleo 16
Sinatra image. Ever notice how much those two have in common (Frank was
the better vocalist, obviously).