Bill Evans Live at the Maintenance Shop (Video) - Wow!!!
Richard G. Wright
performance at the Jazz Maintenance Shop. WOW!!!! It's funny because I have
the 6-CD "Turn Out The Stars" boxed set (with the same performers and many
of the same tunes) but having watched a live 20 year old video - I
definitely have a new appreciation for Mr.. Evans.....
His chord placement was outstanding... Both Joe LaBarbera and Marc Johnson
were much, much better than I could tell only on record...
For those of you who are Evans' experts... Are there any other Evans' videos
you would recommend????
For those of you who aren't.. I would strongly recommend it... It's
available from Rhapsody Films in Connecticut... 860-434-3610.
By the way for those of you who don't know... they have dozens of jazz
videos (Monk, Dolphy, Dexter...) and for the month of Feb, they're on
sale!!!!
Wow!!! That's all I can say.... It makes a monumental difference being able
to see the performance in addition to hearing it....
Paul M. Ramey
Maintenance Shop performance available on video (Shanachie 6306). The
track listing is:
Midnight Mood, Peacocks, M*A*S*H, Quiet Now, Up With the Lark, In Your
Own Sweet Way, I Do It for Your Love, and My Romance.
Same lineup, venue, sound/picture quality, etc. as the Rhapsody
video...just a different set.
I've noticed that some of the Rhapsody videos are making their way to
DVD (Sonny Rollins' "Saxophone Colossus", Sun Ra's "A Joyful Noise", and
the Gil Scott Heron video are all slated for release this month).
Hopefully, the Maintenance shop shows won't be far behind.
Paul
Jack Woker
> >
> > I just finished viewing the video of the last Bill Evans trio's 1979
> > performance at the Jazz Maintenance Shop. WOW!!!!
These Maintenance Shop shows were originally aired on PBS around 1980,
at which time I taped them. Evans was in great musical form at the time
of his death, which makes his loss all the more tragic.
jack
Tom Pohorsky
Paul M. Ramey <pmr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In addition to the Rhapsody video, there's another Bill Evans
>Maintenance Shop performance available on video (Shanachie 6306).
>
>DVD (Sonny Rollins' "Saxophone Colossus", Sun Ra's "A Joyful Noise", and
>the Gil Scott Heron video are all slated for release this month).
>Hopefully, the Maintenance shop shows won't be far behind.
Does someone have a listing of jazz video available on laserdisk ?
I'm hopelessly dated,
Tom.
--
- Tom Pohorsky tomp at Netcom dot com
Keith Myath
'Evans was in great musical form at the time
> of his death, which makes his loss all the more tragic.
> jack
Was he really?
I listened not long ago to the last village vanguard cd's (forgot the title), and I remember it being kind of sad.
He seemed to be rushing and playing lots of notes without the depth that we came to love and admire.
(I heard he had a drug problem towards the end)
I'm not putting him down,(he's my favorite pianist of all time) is just that I'd rather listen to the 70's stuff.
Does anybody agree?
Keith
Marc Sabatella
>'Evans was in great musical form at the time
>> of his death, which makes his loss all the more tragic.
>> jack
>
>Was he really?
>I listened not long ago to the last village vanguard cd's (forgot the title),
> and I remember it being kind of sad.
>He seemed to be rushing and playing lots of notes without the depth that we
> came to love and admire.
>(I heard he had a drug problem towards the end)
He had a drug problem (and a rushing problem) his entire life. His
ballad playing toward the end was perhaps not as delicate as in the
60's, but the uptempo pieces had an intensity and drive he had never
really expressed before, in my opinion.
>I'm not putting him down,(he's my favorite pianist of all time) is just that
> I'd rather listen to the 70's stuff.
>Does anybody agree?
The 70's period is by far the weakest, as far as I am concerned. I'd
rather hear the 60's for ballads, or, for uptempo pieces, the last trio
(which began in the 70's, but presumably you meant the earlier 70's).
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Check out my latest CD, "Second Course"
Available on Cadence Jazz Records
Also "A Jazz Improvisation Primer", Scores, & More:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Jack Woker
> The 70's period is by far the weakest, as far as I am concerned. I'd
> rather hear the 60's for ballads, or, for uptempo pieces, the last trio
> (which began in the 70's, but presumably you meant the earlier 70's).
I have to agree with Marc here. As much as I love Evans, I find the
early 70's to be the least interesting period, although there is plenty
to recommend from that period. It just seems to me that after a few
tepid and inconsistent years, he found new inspiration with the final
trio.
jack
John Hood
Keith Myath <ke...@satellite.com> wrote in article
<keith-03029...@ppp-37.ts-10.nyc.idt.net>...
> I'm not putting him down,(he's my favorite pianist of all time) is just
that I'd rather listen to the 70's stuff.
> Does anybody agree?
>
No, I'd rather listen to the 60's stuff. However he is still my , (favorite
pianist of all time)
Cheers,
JH
ENIGVAR6
>> and I remember it being kind of sad.<BR>
>>He seemed to be rushing and playing lots of notes without the depth that
>> came to love and admire.<BR>
>>(I heard he had a drug problem towards the end)<BR>
><BR>
>He had a drug problem (and a rushing problem) his entire life. His <BR>
>ballad playing toward the end was perhaps not as delicate as in the <BR>
>60's, but the uptempo pieces had an intensity and drive he had never <BR>
Evans recorded a fairly limited repertoire of tunes throughout his career,
seemingly content to get into the ones he liked with more depth and elaboration
as time went on. It's interesting to compare the way he played one tune such
as 'Emily' over the course of years. By the end of his life he was packing an
enormous amount of musical information (by which I mean ideas, harmonies,
rhythmic displacements, etc) into his renditions. His late stuff rewards
repeated listening, because of the enormously imaginative ways he was playing
with the same material. I really disagree with the notion that he was 'playing
lots of notes without depth' (or rushing, for that matter). On the version of
'Letter to Evan' which appeared on his Timeless album "The Brilliant" he
actually manages to superimpose a blues on top of "Letter", playing both at
once! It's an extraordinary achievement. Another wonderfully expanded area in
his last years was his writing. A whole lot of new originals came out in his
last year or two.
-----
Jerry Karin
Marc Sabatella
>I really disagree with the notion that he was 'playing
>lots of notes without depth' (or rushing, for that matter).
I'm with you regarding the depth issue, but regarding rushing, this is
not exactly a secret. It was one of the reasons Michael Moore quit the
band (thus creating the opening for Johnson).
ENIGVAR6
>I'm with you regarding the depth issue, but regarding rushing, this is <BR>
>not exactly a secret. It was one of the reasons Michael Moore quit the <BR>
>band (thus creating the opening for Johnson).<BR>
In an interview published in the booklet for the Complete Bill Evans on Verve,
Bill Kirchner stated: "That's why Michael left, yes, he told me that he stayed
for a couple of months but apparently Philly Joe, he said, was rushing like
mad." Marc Johnson, who was also present, concurred with this. The Pettinger
biography says more or less the same thing on page 254, though he puts it as
"The pianist's tendency to rush the up-tempo numbers was readily abetted by
Philly Joe Jones". A couple of pages later he quotes Moore: "Bill also had the
tendency to play up on the top of the beat and I have a tendency to try to play
in the middle of the beat and sometimes behind. So when people do that I feel
like I have to run to keep up because that's not my comfortable feeling."
Personally, I don't feel that Evans rushed, and if it happened, it was
certainly not a lifelong problem, as Marc Sabatella seemed to suggest in his
earlier post.
-----
Jerry Karin
Marc Sabatella
>The Pettinger
>biography says more or less the same thing on page 254, though he puts it as
>"The pianist's tendency to rush the up-tempo numbers was readily abetted by
>Philly Joe Jones". A couple of pages later he quotes Moore: "Bill also had the
>tendency to play up on the top of the beat and I have a tendency to try to play
>in the middle of the beat and sometimes behind. So when people do that I feel
>like I have to run to keep up because that's not my comfortable feeling."
>Personally, I don't feel that Evans rushed, and if it happened, it was
>certainly not a lifelong problem, as Marc Sabatella seemed to suggest in his
>earlier post.
Both the Pettinger biography and my own ears tell me Evans had a
tendency to rush the uptempo numbers from around the time the
Gomez/Morrell trio formed.
oaks...@my-dejanews.com
> >I'm with you regarding the depth issue, but regarding rushing, this is <BR>
> >not exactly a secret. It was one of the reasons Michael Moore quit the <BR>
> >band (thus creating the opening for Johnson).<BR>
>
> In an interview published in the booklet for the Complete Bill Evans on Verve,
> Bill Kirchner stated: "That's why Michael left, yes, he told me that he stayed
> for a couple of months but apparently Philly Joe, he said, was rushing like
> biography says more or less the same thing on page 254, though he puts it as
> "The pianist's tendency to rush the up-tempo numbers was readily abetted by
> Philly Joe Jones". A couple of pages later he quotes Moore: "Bill also had the
> tendency to play up on the top of the beat and I have a tendency to try to play
> in the middle of the beat and sometimes behind. So when people do that I feel
> like I have to run to keep up because that's not my comfortable feeling."
> Personally, I don't feel that Evans rushed, and if it happened, it was
> certainly not a lifelong problem, as Marc Sabatella seemed to suggest in his
> earlier post.
> Jerry Karin
>
I also feel Mr. Evans’ rushing was not a life-long tendency of his. Listen to
his sense of time in the Riverside recordings with LaFaro and Motian. To me
the time is much more comfortable in those recordings than in his later
recordings. On the later recordings the groove never seems to really settle,
and it gives me an uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach. And now
the obligatory, and obvious: IMO.
oakstaff
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
oaks...@my-dejanews.com
ma...@outsideshore.com (Marc Sabatella) wrote:
> In article <19990205010515...@ng27.aol.com>, enig...@aol.com (ENIGVAR6) wrote:
>
> >The Pettinger
> >biography says more or less the same thing on page 254, though he puts it as
> >"The pianist's tendency to rush the up-tempo numbers was readily abetted by
> >Philly Joe Jones". A couple of pages later he quotes Moore: "Bill also had the
> >tendency to play up on the top of the beat and I have a tendency to try to play
> >in the middle of the beat and sometimes behind. So when people do that I feel
> >like I have to run to keep up because that's not my comfortable feeling."
> >Personally, I don't feel that Evans rushed, and if it happened, it was
> >certainly not a lifelong problem, as Marc Sabatella seemed to suggest in his
> >earlier post.
>
> tendency to rush the uptempo numbers from around the time the
> Gomez/Morrell trio formed.
>
I agree Marc. Seems like it started about about then. I wonder why? After
all, his time seemed wonderful prior to that period, and that prior period
represented a lot of years of fantastic playing as a leader and a sideman.
It’s rather a mystery to me how someone’s sense of time could change so
drastically, especially in someone who played as often as he did.
Marc Sabatella
>> Both the Pettinger biography and my own ears tell me Evans had a
>> tendency to rush the uptempo numbers from around the time the
>> Gomez/Morrell trio formed.
>
>I agree Marc. Seems like it started about about then. I wonder why? After
>all, his time seemed wonderful prior to that period, and that prior period
>represented a lot of years of fantastic playing as a leader and a sideman.
Some possibilities:
1) Previously, he had played with more straightahead rhythm sections
that had been keeping him honest despite any tendency to rush he might
have harbored himself.
2) He hadn't played so many uptempo tunes before, so we didn't notice
his tendency to rush.
3) He hadn't been recorded live so often before, and in the studio, they
were more careful about such things, and simply didn't release takes
that rushed, whereas a good number of his live recordings were
unauthorized. Also, there is a great deal more adrenaline flowing in
live situations, anyhow.
4) His new, more rhythmically complex approach was harder to control.
I suspect it is some combination of these. Note all but the last
suggest the tendency had always been there but was being masked; the
last suggests an actual change. I would definitely say that when I try
for rhythmically complex ideas, I often rush as well, whereas the
simpler I play, the more I might even tend to drag from trying to stay
behind the beat.
I can't say any of this bothers me about Bill's playing, though -
it's just a mild curiosity. He' one of my favorites no matter what.
ENIGVAR6
>Both the Pettinger biography and my own ears tell me Evans had a<BR>
> tendency to rush the uptempo numbers from around the time the<BR>
> Gomez/Morrell trio formed.
----
Can you give some examples of recorded works that you think are rushed? It's
kind of subjective, I suppose, since 'rushed' can't really mean much more than
'faster than *I* think it ought to be played'. Pettinger's statement, by the
same token, is nothing more than his opinion. I still wonder if you are
mistaking more notes per bar for more beats per minute. But some examples might
help clear it up.
----Jerry Karin
Larry Kronenberger
contend that Gomez became intrusive and a liability. No warmth...just a
guy playing abass that he thinks is a cello.
Larry
Mark Eisenman
We used to call him "Fast Eddie".That period of my Bill Evans collection
is a black hole because of this issue being discussed.
mark
--
please visit
http://www.yorku.ca/faculty/academic/eisenman/default.html
MARK EISENMAN
276 WILLOW AVE. TOR. ONT.
CANADA M4E-3K7
PHONE: 416-694-6688
FAX: 416-690-0587
e-mail: eise...@yorku.ca
Lcfpsf
Evans.
I preferred Evans with bass players who could lay down some solid - low-bass
notes rather that solo continuously in the highest register of the instrument.
Gomez, for me, was a distraction to the beautiful playing by Bill Evans.
I think Evans swung far more after Gomez left the trio.
Peter Friedman
Searcher
I heard "The Brilliant" just recently and it was devastatingly beautiful,
with all the marvellous abilities he'd painstakingly honed over the
years that you've mentioned. I do though get the sense that his
music (and his life consequently) was teetering on the edge of
some kind of certain destruction. A novelty tune like "Theme From
M*A*S*H" which he reprised often in the late trio gets almost
demolished in the performance and then he hurriedly ties it up with
the usual Evans finesse, something very disturbing about that. I
can't imagine how his collaborators, especially Marc Johnson felt
about this kind of treatment, given how much he and LaBarbera were
always shining off of Evans' form like light before the dark (or was it
like the glow before the dawn?) For as much as he seemed to esteem his
players I think (and this is a listener's injection) something about
his own self-opinion seemed to pull others into the fray too, creating
a frantic kind of beauty at the height, and a kind of maudlin abuse
at his lowest.
I'm captivated by Evans' late playing, now that a world seems to
have opened for me. I've heard "Consecration 2" but I'm still
waiting for "Last Concert in Germany (Aug 1980)." Have you
or anyone heard this recently released CD?
How does it compare with the Keystone Korner (Timeless) recordings.
Any praise, criticism, reflections?
-Ryo
If replying personally please refer to ryka...@hotmail.com
ENIGVAR6
>waiting for "Last Concert in Germany (Aug 1980)." Have you<BR>
>or anyone heard this recently released CD?<BR>
><BR>
>How does it compare with the Keystone Korner (Timeless) recordings.<BR>
>Any praise, criticism, reflections?<BR>
><BR>
>-Ryo<BR>
I think this is probably the worst of his last group of recordings. Marc
Johnson mentioned in an interview that he was out of it at a private party in
Germany and that the playing was affected - I believe this recording is the
event referred to. It's not horrible, but I don't recommend it. Worst at the
beginning, gets a little better later on. Definitely not up to the Keystone,
last Vanguard, Buenos Aires, or other late Evans recordings.
----
Jerry Karin
ENIGVAR6
>While likely a "minority opinion", I never cared much for Eddie Gomez >with
Bill Evans.
Penguin Guide authors and a few others have done a lot to propagate this. I
like Gomez' playing with Evans a lot. I think he created a lot of wonderful
solos. One of the best was Emily on 'Live in Paris, 1972, vol 3'. Another
great one was on You Must Believe in Spring on the album of the same name. You
might want to listen to what Evans himself says about Gomez on his interview
with Marian McPartland. The fact that Gomez was with him for 11 years says a
lot, too.
>I preferred Evans with bass players who could lay down some solid -
>low-bass<BR>
>notes rather that solo continuously in the highest register of the
>instrument.<BR>
>Gomez, for me, was a distraction to the beautiful playing by Bill >Evans.<BR>
Marc Johnson played high up as often or more than Gomez, more I would say. If
you really like low, then Israels is for you. Of all Evans bassists, I do
think that Israels had the most beautiful, rounded tone. Johnson, though the
notes he played were marvelous, often sounded like he was playing electric bass
- his tone was vague and 'electronic sounding' and lacked the color,
complexity and depth that Israels, for example, got. I really love acoustic
bass with mike rather than pickup.
----Jerry Karin
Lcfpsf
George Mraz.
Very sensitive to the soloist, inventive solos, keeps great time, nice sound,
swings like crazy.
Peter Friedman
Howard Peirce
> ----
> Can you give some examples of recorded works that you think are rushed? It's
> kind of subjective, I suppose, since 'rushed' can't really mean much more than
> 'faster than *I* think it ought to be played'. Pettinger's statement, by the
> same token, is nothing more than his opinion. I still wonder if you are
> mistaking more notes per bar for more beats per minute. But some examples might
> help clear it up.
Actually, rushing is objective and measurable--it doesn't mean "faster than I
think it ought to be." It means, "faster at the end than it was at the beginning,"
i.e., gradually speeding up, usually by playing on top of the beat and then
catching up to it, so that the whole tempo gradually increases.
Not that rushing is always a bad thing--there are some great recordings where the
tempo at the end is markedly faster than at the beginning, and it actually adds
some excitement--when rushing like this is appropriate, you don't hear it. It's
the innapropriate rushing that you hear.
Rushing can also make ensemble playing a chore, and it can ruin the groove. As a
musician, it's just plain uncomfortable and difficult to play with someone who
consistently rushes.
HP
Simon Weil
>>While likely a "minority opinion", I never cared much for Eddie Gomez >with
>Bill Evans.
>This appears to be the standard, received wisdom held by the majority. The
>Penguin Guide authors and a few others have done a lot to propagate this. I
>like Gomez' playing with Evans a lot. I think he created a lot of wonderful
>solos. One of the best was Emily on 'Live in Paris, 1972, vol 3'. Another
>great one was on You Must Believe in Spring on the album of the same name.
>You
>might want to listen to what Evans himself says about Gomez on his interview
>with Marian McPartland. The fact that Gomez was with him for 11 years says a
>lot, too.
>
Sure it means a lot that Evans kept him with him. I think the balance of the
band was different with Gomez in it. In my eyes he was more of an equal to Bill
than Evans's other bassists - like on their duet album Montreux III . As you
point out in another post, right at the end of his life Bill seemed to get this
renewed burst of energy and ideas. Maybe, at that point, he didn't want a
co-equal soloist (or something approximating to that) but an ensemble player -
which is more what Johnson was. I don't think Johnson ever had the authority of
Gomez.
Simon Weil
Keith L. Saunders
>----
>Can you give some examples of recorded works that you think are rushed? It's
>kind of subjective, I suppose, since 'rushed' can't really mean much more than
>'faster than *I* think it ought to be played'. Pettinger's statement, by the
>same token, is nothing more than his opinion. I still wonder if you are
>mistaking more notes per bar for more beats per minute. But some examples might
>help clear it up.
The first example that comes to my mind is What Is This Thing Called
Love from Clifford Brown's "On Basin Street." It rushes like mad.
But it's also one of the greatest versions of that song I've ever
heard with phenominal solos' from Clifford, Sonny, & Max!
Keith Saunders
o/~==========================================o/~
Visit the N.Y. HardBop Quintet on the WWW!
http://www.interport.net/~commish/nyhbq.html
o/~==========================================o/~
ENIGVAR6
>Actually, rushing is objective and measurable--it doesn't mean "faster than
>think it ought to be." It means, "faster at the end than it was at the
I agree with you, but in the context of Pettinger's remark and the posts that
started this thread, we appear to be talking about 'going too fast'. At least
I think that is what Marc Sabatella and others were saying. I was hoping for
someone to cite an example so I could a) compare the speed of earlier versions
and b) check the speed at beginning and end.
----
Jerry Karin
Gregory Monahan
: Definitely not up to the Keystone,
: last Vanguard, Buenos Aires, or other late Evans recordings.
I just recently got hold of the Buenos Aires recordings and am really
taken with them. Very moody Evans, gorgeous ballad work, pretty good
sound. It's the kind of Evans I've always adored.
Greg M.
gmon...@eou.edu
Marc Sabatella
>Howard Peirce wrote:
>>Actually, rushing is objective and measurable--it doesn't mean "faster than
>>I<BR>
>>think it ought to be." It means, "faster at the end than it was at the
>>beginning,"<BR>
>
>I agree with you, but in the context of Pettinger's remark and the posts that
>started this thread, we appear to be talking about 'going too fast'.
Not sure where you got that idea, but it is definitely not the case. I
thought it clear from Pettinger's comments, and my own, that we meant
"rushing" in the standard musical sense: acceleration of tempo
over the course of a piece and/or individual phrases played at a
slightly faster pulse than what the rest of the band is playing,
Note that, like Howard says, rushing in the sense of tempo
acceleration is pretty common, and isn't necessarily always considered a
bad thing. I'm sure I could find similar examples in many people's
playing. All I can say is that, subjectively, Evans' tendency to rush
is especially noticeable to me (and to others, apparently). This is
because I can often actually hear the specific phrases where the tempo
accelerates - phrases where his eighth notes come at a rate slightly
above two per beat, for example, creating a momentary discrepancy
between his beat and the rest of the bands'. This discrepancy
was usually "corrected" by the bands' adjusting forward to his beat,
thus accelerating the tempo.
This suggests yet another possible reason why this tendency may not
have been so noticed earlier in his career - perhaps Paul Motian and
Jimmy Cobb (the drummers he was recorded with the most in the early
days, it seems) were more steadfast about not giving in, forcing Bill to
lay back a little more, or at least adjust backward when
the discrepancies occurred.
>I was hoping for
>someone to cite an example so I could a) compare the speed of earlier versions
>and b) check the speed at beginning and end.
"a" is not relevant to what we mean by "rushing", unless you mean simply
to verify that the rushing (as measured by "b") did not occur in earlier
versions. By now, you should have already seen my list of examples of
rushing drawn from "Montreaux II". The fact that I found it on *every*
uptempo tune on this album suggests it should not be hard to find other
examples from other live albums.
ENIGVAR6
>By now, you should have already seen my list of examples of rushing drawn
>from "Montreaux II". The fact that I found it on *every* uptempo tune on
>this album suggests it should not be hard to find other examples from other
>live albums.--------------Marc
know, I know AOL sux but it is rather convenient if you have to travel) nor can
I find it on deja-news.
-----
Jerry Karin
Marc Sabatella
Hmmm, I can't find it either. Not sure what happened.
Anyhow, what I said above pretty much sums it up: I went to Montreaux II
(picked at random from the live recordings I have access to) and checked
out the tempos of the faster tunes: Israel, Peri's Scope, How My Heart
Sings, 34 Skidoo. In *each and every case*, the tempo increased
from the initial theme statement until the end of Bill's solo, then held
pretty steady until Bill reentered to trade fours or play the out head,
whereupon it usually sped up again.
In my previous post, I gave the specific tempos I measured, but I'm sure
you'd want to measure them yourself, anyhow. I don't remember all of
the specific figures I came up with, but I'm talking about speedups on
the order of 10-20% or so over the course of a tune: a piece that
started out at 116 bpm and ended up at 138, that sort of thing (I think
this was the range for "Israel"). Again, I saw this on *every* uptempo
tune on this album, so I really doubt you'd have much trouble observing
the same thing on any live album you have in your collection.
And as I said in the post you quoted above, in many cases, I can hear
*exactly* where these speedups occur. It isn't a gradual acceleration
that is imperceptible except by taking "before" and "after" metronome
readings. It's like, the tempo is 120 at one point, then Bill plays a
two measure phrase at around 124, putting him slightly ahead of the
beat, and a measure later, the band has caught up to him, increasing the
overall tempo from 120 to 124 over the course of just three measures.
Then it might stay constant for 16 bars and then do another
sudden acceleration to 128. While rushing to some degree is pretty
common, and often imperceptible, it is these "hiccups" that cause me to
notice the rushing in Bill's case.
And again, I'm not observing this to criticize Bill Evans. I think he's
a fantastic player - one of my favorites. I only noticed this
tendency to rush because I listen to him so much and pay so much
attention to what he plays. But having done so, I find it impossible to
deny. It does not in the least diminish my appreciation for him,
although I can understand how someone like Michael Moore could have
become frustrated over this and left the band.
Personally, I tend to rush a lot too - or at least, I used to. Now I
tend to drag at least as often. Steady time is not one of my strong
suits as a musician, so it would be pretty hypocritical of me to hold
this against Bill.