Feedback Trane Box?
Michel
Jon Vanhala wrote:
>
> after all the comments prior to release on the Impulse! John Coltrane
> Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings 4 cd box I'm surprised that
> there have been minimal comments now that it's out and finally
> available.........
>
> what do ya think?
I'd like to comment, but I can't: I still can't find it in stores :-(
Michel
Montreal
Jon Vanhala
after all the comments prior to release on the Impulse! John Coltrane
Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings 4 cd box I'm surprised that
there have been minimal comments now that it's out and finally
available.........
what do ya think?
Jon Vanhala
GRP Recording Company
Impulse!, GRP, and Blue Thumb Records
and the jazz catalogs of Commodore, Chess, and the Decca jazz labels
jvan...@unistudios.com
Martin S. Milgrim
Wonderful liner notes by David Wild, some great photos. I don't
especially dig the artistic renditions of Trane on each box, but that's
perhaps a quibble because it still makes for highly colorful packaging
of each disk. As for the music, I've had the LPs for years, and it's
just marvelous to have it all (with some "new" takes) in chronological,
coherent fashion. I've been listening to it for the past two days and
am again overwhelmed by how adventurous and daring this music was and
still is. Perhaps the comments have been few because the music is so
challenging, one can't casually put it on in most circumstances unless
the circumstances are "right", e.g., small kids are out of the house,
wife's out shopping, etc.
Anyway, I'm grateful!
Martin
Ashley Capps
In article <60skct$b...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, jvan...@unistudios.com
wrote:
> after all the comments prior to release on the Impulse! John Coltrane
> Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings 4 cd box I'm surprised that
> there have been minimal comments now that it's out and finally
> available.........
>
> what do ya think?
>
> Jon Vanhala
Yeah, Jon, I've been pretty surprised by this as well. I suppose you know
from my postings on other threads that I love it. I've had all of this
music that was issued on lp for many years, but it's great to have it
together and arranged in chronological order, and the sound is absolutely
superb, far beyond any previous issues. It's such a pleasure to listen to.
For me, without question, this some of the most exciting and satisfying
music ever recorded. The packaging works fine for me as well, and the
booklet is especially well done. So. . . you've definitely got one happy
customer posting to rmb.
Ashley
Harry Lewis
Jon Vanhala wrote:
>
> after all the comments prior to release on the Impulse! John Coltrane
> Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings 4 cd box I'm surprised that
> there have been minimal comments now that it's out and finally
> available.........
>
> what do ya think?
>
> Jon Vanhala
> Impulse!, GRP, and Blue Thumb Records
> and the jazz catalogs of Commodore, Chess, and the Decca jazz labels
> jvan...@unistudios.com
Will it be released on 180g lp ? HL
Ed Rhodes, Jr.
jvan...@unistudios.com (Jon Vanhala) wrote:
>after all the comments prior to release on the Impulse! John Coltrane
>Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings 4 cd box I'm surprised that
>there have been minimal comments now that it's out and finally
>available.........
>
>what do ya think?
I don't like the artwork but frankly, it didn't make much difference
to me.
The sound quality is pretty good, better than "The Other Village
Vanguard Tapes" and "Trane's Modes" but not as good as the original
AS-10 and AS-42 vinyl issues. But even here, I had no expectation
that it would equal, let alone surpass the originals. I'm one of
those folks who thinks that, in that regard, cd's just don't have it.
But, overall, I was not disappointed in the sound.
The real issue for me was programming and here I refer to the Japanese
sets that also issued the material in strict chronological order (but
with 3 less tracks). I have not heard these but before they were
issued I had tried to do the same thing on cassette using my vinyl.
For me, hearing these sets from start to finish lends its own edge to
the listening. I was most struck by the Nov. 1 "India" and how it led
into the other pieces from that set but I was disappointed that the
"Brasilia" which concludes the set couldn't fit on the same disk. The
Japanese set accomplished this by not issuing the "India". But each
of the other dates are complete in one disk except Nov. 2, which is
complete in two without material from any of the other dates. The new
box has no single disk which plays back a single complete set, though
it is possible to listen to the 2 titles from Nov. 5 straight through.
I can see that most of this is not Impulse's fault but a result of the
capacity limitations of 1 cd. It also kept the number of disks to a
minimum (4) and, presumably, kept the price down as well.
Of course, none of this is a problem for those listening on cd
changers.
Don't know what else could have been done with Nov. 1 and 2. Nov. 3
could have been put on a separate disk. Probably would have upped the
cost. Just thinking out loud.
Back to the music.
Ed Rhodes
D Royko
Haven't bought it yet, but amazingly, by this past weekend, the Tower at
Clark and Belden in Chicago had sold out. What a bunch of mopes to
underorder something like this.
Dave Royko
James Pritchett
: Will it be released on 180g lp ? HL
I'll 2nd HL's request. How about it Jon????
--
/ l l l \
Kurt Nordwell P500
Jon Vanhala wrote:
>
> after all the comments prior to release on the Impulse! John Coltrane
> Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings 4 cd box I'm surprised that
> there have been minimal comments now that it's out and finally
> available.........
>
> what do ya think?
>
I really like it. The art critiques were overblown (way overblown). I like
the packaging. It is a very good release; I'd give it an A+. Now, when is
Thembi going to be released? Just kidding although I really like that album.
Peace,
Kurt
R. Lynn Rardin
In article <19971001163...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, dro...@aol.com
(D Royko) wrote:
The Clark and Belden Tower isn't alone. :^) Tower Cambridge (MA) sold out
of their initial order in less than two days.
Michel
Brian Passingham wrote:
>
> In article <3431C9...@amita.montrealnet.ca>, Michel
> <for...@amita.montrealnet.ca> writes
> >Jon Vanhala wrote:
> >>
> >> after all the comments prior to release on the Impulse! John Coltrane
> >> Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings 4 cd box I'm surprised that
> >> there have been minimal comments now that it's out and finally
> >> available.........
> >>
> >> what do ya think?
> >
> >
> >Michel
> >Montreal
>
> no details on the shop's computer system, nothing on the relevant weekly
> release list, ...
>
> There's been some good publicity for the discs in England
> (including the obligatory 5-star review in last Friday's Guardian), but
> the distributors seem to be fouling up ...
I went to my local HMV Mega-Ultra-Supra-Store (or whatever they call it
nowadays...) and they told me: *Not before 2 weeks*... the weird thing
is, I only have to drive less than 2 hours from Montreal to get it in
Burlington VT or Plattsburgh NY. Why is the box taking so long to reach
Montreal? I can't understand this but it is frustrating. A good thing
I'm going to Boston in 2 weeks...
Rick Fisher
Kurt Nordwell P500 <so...@ihadtodothis.nospam> wrote:
>Jon Vanhala wrote:
>>
>> after all the comments prior to release on the Impulse! John Coltrane
>> Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings 4 cd box I'm surprised that
>> there have been minimal comments now that it's out and finally
>> available.........
>>
>> what do ya think?
>>
I got it the day it was released and had the day off so I went down by
the seashore and listened to the whole thing on the discman (A great
way to spend Trane's birthday btw). Absolutely superb! Can't really
see anyway it could be improved. I guess the cover paintings are a
little strange but art isn't always supposed to be a literal concept.
This is how this particular artist interpreted Coltrane's persona.
Some of the reactions to the cover art seem somewhat reminiscent of
the way Trane's performances on the CDs were misunderstood and
considered controversial by many back in '61.
Rick Fisher
Jon Vanhala
> Will it be released on 180g lp ? HL
we've been discussing it and it's possible but not necessarily
probable- any interest? It would take at least 6 LP's to do it right
and maybe a few more depending on track timings.......
Brian Passingham
>>
>> after all the comments prior to release on the Impulse! John Coltrane
>> Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings 4 cd box I'm surprised that
>> there have been minimal comments now that it's out and finally
>> available.........
>>
>> what do ya think?
>
>
>Michel
>Montreal
Me too. I've ordered it, but this was amazingly difficult -
no details on the shop's computer system, nothing on the relevant weekly
release list, ...
There's been some good publicity for the discs in England
(including the obligatory 5-star review in last Friday's Guardian), but
the distributors seem to be fouling up ...
-- Brian Passingham
-- Somewhere in the north of England
GGood16132
>
>I really like it. The art critiques were overblown (way overblown). I like
>the packaging. It is a very good release; I'd give it an A+. Now, when is
>Thembi going to be released? Just kidding although I really like that album.
I know I'm going to sound like a broken record (or CD:-)) since I was griping
about the artwork even before this hit the stands, but now that I've seen the
booklet I'm even more disturbed (note Jon: this is NOT intended as a personal
criticism, you asked what we thought). The music, it goes without saying, is
fabulous. The pictures of Trane, many of which I had not seen before, are
fabulous, and actually it makes for a great collection of photos in that they
seem to capture many sides of his personality. The traits that really make an
impression on me are his concentration, "centeredness", and intensity (see
pages 4, 19, 23, 30 and 41). The original artwork, in contrast, is vulgar. The
best critique of the Christie drawings I've seen so far was offered by the
rmb'er who said they make Trane look like "a dork"; a startling contrast to
the photos of the man. Bad as those drawings are, there are even worse ones
here. The image on page 7 looks like something out of a Woolworth's window;
pages 26 and 46 are equally galling. Finally, I know this set is being sold at
a very reasonable price compared to other boxes, but I'm surprised that no one
has commented on the obvious cutting of corners that was done to achieve this:
the lightweight box itself and the simple cardboard CD holders. I'm not
necessarily opposed to this if it makes the music affordable to more people,
but I do think it should be noted; it's a striking contrast to the quality
"feel" of Impulse's single CD digipack releases.
Glenn Good
Michael Scarpone
Hi all,
As a student, I am reminded to keep my mind open when dealing with
art and music so here are the comments that I have to offer about the
art. First, I think that the paintings, much like jazz and
improvisation, are different for everybody. Not every solo is going to
be conjunct and beautiful. Some stuff is just out there, but you still
manage to get the whole picture (example, Pharoh Sanders on the
Coltrane album Live in Seattle). The artist might just have been
trying to put emphasis on the fact that, sure while the smoothness of
early art is breathtaking, Jazz is something different. And the art is
reflecting that. Try listening to the music while staring at those
paintings.....I think you will see what I mean.
Mike
Adam Good
i just wish the "Feedback Trane Box" was this magical effects pedal for
guitar that, when stomped on, made your guitar sound like an overblown
tenor.
--
Adam Good, guitar New York City
good...@quicklink.com
http://www.quicklink.com/~goodadam
Ronald Stone
I pre-ordered the Vanguard box at our store, and had to wait a week
until our distributor fulfilled the pre-orders preceding mine. So the
box may be selling even better than expected. I remember "Stellar
Regions" cracking the BILLBOARD jazz chart to everyone's amazement.
I dislike the paintings in the Vanguard box, too, and wonder why they
were chosen over contemporary photographs of the artist or even the
venue. But it's a small point when you consider that we're getting
something that cost over $200 on import, with better sound and a more
complete document to boot.
Ronald Stone
St. Mary's College of Maryland
Tom Walls
Love it!
--
Psychromatically Yours,
Tom Walls
Don Herzog
Jon Vanhala <jvan...@unistudios.com> wrote:
>
>what do ya think?
To say the screamingly obvious, the music is sublime.
I don't care particularly one way or the other about the artwork, but I do
have a packaging question. Over the years I'll be slipping the CDs in and
out of those pesky cardboard sleeves plenty of times. (They've already
made four or five round trips apiece.) I can't help wondering if they are
going to get scratched in the process. (Call me innocent, but I don't
actually believe the packaging was designed to produce that effect.) Jon,
has Impulse! tried to figure out if CDs really can stand up to this over
time? or should I promptly go buy some jewel cases?
--don
BellerMB
another vote for 180 g vinyl....
GKornfield
>>> what do ya think?
I only had the opportunity to listen to the 1st disc and I thought it was
amazing. With sufficient concentration, the music is mesmerizning. I have
heard that listening to his concerts was almost a religious experience. The
music is quite serious and mystical and spiritual (albeit the title of the
cut) in nature.
It was also wonderful to hear so much Dolphy. How many others could stay on
the same stage as Coltrane.
I also thought that Reggie Workman meshed well with the band. (What do I
know-I have heard that Trane passed over Workman in favor of Art Davis and
Garrison)
Anyhow I purchased the set at Best Buy for $42. The next day I got a call from
one of the Used stores I frequent with the opportunity to buy it as $7.95 x 4.
Oh well
Dan Herpst
I got it last weekend, on the way out of town. I was able to take
a look at it and found the packaging to be the same as I'm
getting used to with Impulse. The outer sleeve is great, but
please these cheesy card stock wrappers are way poor.
A better choice of the slim line jewel case would of been
best, for a recording that is going to see so much wear
and tear.
Bottom line: Music 10, Package 3
dan
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Daniel Herpst dhe...@frontiernet.net
716-416-2360
274 Canterbury Road
Rochester NY 14607
Don Herzog <dhe...@gorf.rs.itd.umich.edu> wrote in article
<610s41$270$1...@newbabylon.rs.itd.umich.edu>...
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
>Jon Vanhala wrote:
>>
>> after all the comments prior to release on the I**** J*** C******
>> Complete ****************** 4 cd box I'm surprised that
>> there have been minimal comments now that it's out and finally
>> available.........
>>
>> what do ya think?
So you put an old record in a new box. Big fucking deal. You expected maybe
we should give you a medal? Coltrane fanatics already own it. Casual
fans won't enjoy it much. This box is for collector nerds who think they
need every last belch in every possible configuration. Essentially, you're
just recycling old news.
If you seriously want to make a contribution, rerelease the obscure
stuff that's been unavailable for years. Or sign some new artists,
preferably accomplished, well-seasoned players with something
original to say rather than empty Young Lion suits retreading
the oldies. Then let them say what they have to say instead
of pushing them into cutting crap pop tunes.
BTW, your claim to be an independent agent rather than a record
company weasel is now shot to shit. You've done nothing in rmb
but blatantly promote this release for the last month. Please
keep the press releases and other flackery in the marketplace
newsgroups where they belong. I've seen many newsgroups killed
off by creeping commercialization, and I don't want that to
happen here.
Ed Rhodes, Jr.
dhe...@gorf.rs.itd.umich.edu (Don Herzog) wrote:
>To say the screamingly obvious, the music is sublime.
'Nuff said, there.
>...I do
>have a packaging question. Over the years I'll be slipping the CDs in and
>out of those pesky cardboard sleeves plenty of times...I can't help wondering if they are
>going to get scratched in the process...Jon,
>has Impulse! tried to figure out if CDs really can stand up to this over
>time? or should I promptly go buy some jewel cases?
Ditto to Don and Glenn on this. I took the box on the commuter train
this AM to test out a new discman (mixed results on that). When you
open up those cardboard sleeves you have to tilt them to get the disks
out...and then they come flying. I'm a bit concerned about the
rubbing as well as the possibility of a spill.
Ed Rhodes
John Hood
First, the good news. The Trane VV box has now arrived in Perth, Western
Australia.
The bad news, it costs $90 AUS, which is probably around $63 US. Haven't
heard the rate today.
Whatever the price, it was always going to be worth it.
Regards,
JH
Charles H Berg
I like digipaks, the artwork is kinda dumb, I wish the liner notes
were directed more towards the cogniscenti. That covers the important
issues :-).
I've only listened to the 1st 3 discs so far. I've tried 3 times to
write a sentence that conveys the beauty and power of this music.
There is little to match it in all of jazz, period.
--
Charlie Berg
c...@world.std.com
Jonathan Meltzer
In article <01bccf8c$29951b20$c38382d1@brigham>,The package isn't _that_ bad. Better than the Miles/Gil set, for instance
...
Question: now that VV and Impressions are now obsolete, what will happen
to Impressions' studio cuts?
Question 2: is any more of the Birdland and VVAgain material still extant?
--
Jon Meltzer
jmel...@world.std.com
Lee
>Jon Vanhala wrote:
> after all the comments prior to release on the Impulse! John Coltrane
> Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings 4 cd box I'm surprised that
> there have been minimal comments now that it's out and finally
> available.........
>
> what do ya think?
In a word-amazing. The sound quality is fine with me, after listening
to the CD's in conjunction with the LP's (AS-10 and The Other Village
Vanguard Tapes). The temporal ordering of the music from the first to
last night is revealing of the "micro"-evolution of this group over the
time of the gig. And I don't have any problems with the
artwork--reminds me a bit of the LP release of the complete Charlie
Parker on Dial by Columbia in the 70's (each sleeve had a different
artists interpretation of Bird). The slipcases are a bit cumbersome
though, and the box doesn't fit on my shelves with other CDs.
But aside from that--IMO the release of the year (or more!)
--
Lee
++++ stop the execution of Mumia Abu-Jamal ++++
++++ if you agree copy these 3 sentences in your own sig ++++
++++ more info: http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/spg-l/sigaction.htm ++++
Adam Schneit
Jonathan Meltzer (jmel...@world.std.com) wrote:
: Question: now that VV and Impressions are now obsolete, what will happen
: to Impressions' studio cuts?
I can answer part of this question. The track "Up Against the Wall" was
recently released as additional music on the reissue of the album
"Coltrane."
-adam
H. Loess
jmel...@world.std.com (Jonathan Meltzer) wrote:
>Question: now that VV and Impressions are now obsolete, what will happen
>to Impressions' studio cuts?
"After The Rain" is on the "Dear Old Stockholm" CD, along with all the other
extant studio tracks with Roy Haynes; "Up 'Gainst The Wall" was added to the
album "Coltrane" when that disc was reissued earlier this year.
>Question 2: is any more of the Birdland and VVAgain material still extant?
Apparently not; Impulse has been very good about adding additional
material, when available, to the appropriate CD's, as well as taking
'orpahaned' tracks like the two above and finding the most appropriate CD
home for them. I believe Michael Cuscuna has done all the programming for
these since GRP came in.
--
Henry L.
hlo...@pipeline.com
Ed Rhodes, Jr.
hlo...@pipeline.com (H. Loess) wrote:
Fujioka lists two unissued titles from this date, "Mr. P.C." and
something called "Rockin". Is it now confirmed that masters don't
exist? Or have they been issued and I missed it?
Henry? Jon? Anyone?
Ed Rhodes
H. Loess
e...@mindspring.com (Ed Rhodes, Jr.) wrote:
>>>Question 2: is any more of the Birdland and VVAgain material still extant?
>>Apparently not; Impulse has been very good about adding additional
>>material, when available, to the appropriate CD's, as well as taking
>>'orpahaned' tracks like the two above and finding the most appropriate CD
>>home for them. I believe Michael Cuscuna has done all the programming for
>>these since GRP came in.
>Fujioka lists two unissued titles from this date, "Mr. P.C." and
>something called "Rockin". Is it now confirmed that masters don't
>exist? Or have they been issued and I missed it?
>Henry? Jon? Anyone?
According to Cuscuna's footnote on the most recent re-issue of "Birdland"
(which specifically names these two items as appearing in the Impulse master
file), the masters have not survived.
Of course, just a few years ago, the "Stellar Regions" session was not a
known survivor (Fujioka makes no mention of this, nor of some of the
alternates in the Atlantic box), and the three new tracks in the Vanguard
box were listed as 'rejected' (along with the two that surfaced in '85) when
the issues from those sessions were supposedly 'completed' in 1979., so
there's always the hope...
--
Henry L.
hlo...@pipeline.com
Martin S. Milgrim
Rick Fisher wrote:
>
> I got it the day it was released and had the day off so I went down by
> the seashore and listened to the whole thing on the discman (A great
> way to spend Trane's birthday btw). Absolutely superb! Can't really
> see anyway it could be improved. I guess the cover paintings are a
> little strange but art isn't always supposed to be a literal concept.
> This is how this particular artist interpreted Coltrane's persona.
> Some of the reactions to the cover art seem somewhat reminiscent of
> the way Trane's performances on the CDs were misunderstood and
> considered controversial by many back in '61.
> Rick Fisher
Comparing the lack of general acceptance of Trane's artistic statements
of the early '60s to that accorded Greg Christie's portraits of Trane on
this box set is absurd. There is nothing radical or intellectually
challenging about the art work, period. Many of us don't like it for a
variety of reasons but it's not because it's stretching us in any way.
I think your comparison concerning critical reaction unwittingly demean
what Trane accomplished.
Martin
Pjsimon
Egad, Martin and pals. Such a moral high-ground over some illlustrations! Damn
good thing Picasso or DeKooning didn't do the covers. (These were great(er)
artists who were even more disruptive with the figure in their search for
interpretation...You might not have heard of them.....) Anything more radical
and I fear a mob in strange robes would have appeared and burned down the
record company. Rick and others are to be commended for having their eyes as
well as their ears open. And, by the way, in the realm of modern/contemporary
art, I think the Trane protraits are fairly conservative. They are in a style
that seems more like the cutting edge of the 50s and 60s than of today, but I
would guess that's what the art director and producer thought was appropriate
and is what they wanted.
page simon
Martin S. Milgrim
Maybe I should have put it that way instead of taking the "moral
highground", ie., the pictures are fairly conservative as you so well
put it. So how can the reaction to them possibly be equated with the
criticism leveled at Trane at the time these recordings were made? That
really was my point.
Martin
R Shapiro
In article <6146q5$8...@camel21.mindspring.com>, hlo...@pipeline.com (H.
Loess) wrote:
>the three new tracks in the Vanguard
>box were listed as 'rejected'
I've never understood the meaning of 'rejected' in the context of an issue
or reissue that's specifically intended to include alternate takes.
Rejected by whom, and when? How are these 'rejected' tracks any different
from the other 'previously unissued' ones that someone other than artist
decided, after the fact, should appear after all?
Rick Fisher
"Martin S. Milgrim" <mmil...@gate.net> wrote:
>Rick Fisher wrote:
reactions to the cover art seem somewhat reminiscent of
>> the way Trane's performances on the CDs were misunderstood and
>> considered controversial by many back in '61.
>> Rick Fisher
>
>Comparing the lack of general acceptance of Trane's artistic statements
>of the early '60s to that accorded Greg Christie's portraits of Trane on
>this box set is absurd.
I don't really think "somewhat reminiscent" is actually a very
equivocal statement but be that as it may the more I look at these
paintings the more I like about them and the more thay speak to me. I
certainly don't wish to demean John Coltrane, who is one of my all
time favorite musical artists, and I don't really think Greg Christie
(or Impulse Records) did either. Art is art and I have a feeling Greg
Christie might take great exception to the notion that his art is so
vastly inferior and unimportant compared to the art of John Coltrane.
Just my humble opinion
Rick Fisher
GGood16132
>> Some of the reactions to the cover art seem somewhat reminiscent of
>> the way Trane's performances on the CDs were misunderstood and
>> considered controversial by many back in '61.
To me they are reminiscent of the current reactions to Kenny G's playing on
this newsgroup...
Glenn Good
H. Loess
rsha...@bbn.com (R Shapiro) wrote:
>>the three new tracks in the Vanguard
>>box were listed as 'rejected'
>I've never understood the meaning of 'rejected' in the context of an issue
>or reissue that's specifically intended to include alternate takes.
>Rejected by whom, and when? How are these 'rejected' tracks any different
>from the other 'previously unissued' ones that someone other than artist
>decided, after the fact, should appear after all?
In the context of the '79 Vanguard issue (on the 2-LP "Trane's Modes", along
with the last two unissued tracks from the "Africa/Brass" sessions), which
claimed to 'complete' the release of this material, I took "rejected" to
indicate technical problems which made these unsuitable for release. Whether
this was a bad assumption, or whether additional tapes surfaced
subsequently, is something I have been hoping Impulse would clarify since
the first of these "rejected" performances surfaced in the mid '80s.
--
Henry L.
hlo...@pipeline.com
Gremal
Pjsimon <pjs...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19971004121...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> Egad, Martin and pals. Such a moral high-ground over some illlustrations!
Damn
> good thing Picasso or DeKooning didn't do the covers. (These were
great(er)
> artists who were even more disruptive with the figure in their search
for
> interpretation...You might not have heard of them.....)
If any of us want to see examples of Picasso, DeKooning or the infinitely
less talented and unoriginal Greg Christie, we would go to the appropriate
exhibit at the appropriate museum. Christie's work has nothing to do with
Trane, the Vanguard, or jazz.
Abstract illustrations in no way can be compared to abstract music. Nor
can the criticism of abstract illustrations in any way be compared to the
criticism of abstract music (especially in the case of a box which is
directed at Trane fans (!)).
As Leroi Jones pointed out in his essay, "Hunting is Not Those Heads on the
Wall," illustration is "after-the-fact" art in which the act of inspiration
and creation comes separate from the product, which is framed there on the
wall or, as fate may have it, immortalized in a box set. Needless to say,
jazz is not like that as the art is being produced fleetingly at the moment
of creation and you could say that's one reason why jazz albums tend to
have photographic representations showing the artist in the act of creating
on the cover. After all, we're interested in the music, not "heads on the
wall".
> Anything more radical
> and I fear a mob in strange robes would have appeared and burned down
the
> record company
Ha ha. No, we'll just sit here contentedly listening to the VV recordings
with worthless illustrations published in the box.
> Rick and others are to be commended for having their eyes as
> well as their ears open. And, by the way, in the realm of
modern/contemporary
> art, I think the Trane protraits are fairly conservative.
Whether they're conservative has nothing to do with the argument.
> They are in a style
> that seems more like the cutting edge of the 50s and 60s than of today,
but I
> would guess that's what the art director and producer thought was
appropriate
> and is what they wanted.
From what I learned in art history, much more radical representations of
the human figure than Christie's were being painted long before the 50s and
60s. Unless there is something about art appreciation or Christie's
relationship with Coltrane that totally eludes us, Christie's illustrations
have little aesthetic value, few redeeming qualities, little resemblence to
Trane, and probably contributed greatly to printing and packaging costs.
They did not improve the quality of the box. They should not have been
included.
Jon Vanhala
>>>
>I got it the day it was released and had the day off so I went down by
>the seashore and listened to the whole thing on the discman (A great
>way to spend Trane's birthday btw).
I'm jealous....that does sound like a perfect way to spend an
afternoon...
Jon Vanhala
GRP Recording Company
Impulse!, GRP, and Blue Thumb Records
and the jazz catalogs of Commodore, Chess, and the Decca jazz labels
jvan...@unistudios.com
David Wild
The story on this stuff: when I did my research at Impulse back in the
seventies these (and others listed in my discography from back then as
"lost") no longer existed in the vaults. (These items were listed in files
or on contracts). Some of the stuff has recently turned up in the
possession of the Coltrane family, in a variety of forms (the Stellar
Regions material, for example, which turned up at the Coltrane home,
existed as actual studio reels, and included material otherwise unlisted at
Impulse). It's likely some more of this will appear in the future. (I
listed Rockin and Mr. PC, from Birdland, 10/8/63, as "lost"; Fuji changed
it to unissued, which may now be a more correct assessment). Stay tuned...
Ed Rhodes, Jr. <e...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<3435934b...@news.mindspring.com>...
> hlo...@pipeline.com (H. Loess) wrote:
>
> >jmel...@world.std.com (Jonathan Meltzer) wrote:
> >>Question 2: is any more of the Birdland and VVAgain material still
extant?
>
> >Apparently not; Impulse has been very good about adding additional
> >material, when available, to the appropriate CD's, as well as taking
> >'orpahaned' tracks like the two above and finding the most appropriate
CD
> >home for them. I believe Michael Cuscuna has done all the programming
for
> >these since GRP came in.
>
> Fujioka lists two unissued titles from this date, "Mr. P.C." and
> something called "Rockin". Is it now confirmed that masters don't
> exist? Or have they been issued and I missed it?
>
> Henry? Jon? Anyone?
>
> Ed Rhodes
>
David Wild
I think Cuscuna (who produced those reissues) probably identified them as
"rejected"--in hindsight probably not the best word to use. All the
material that was in the vaults (including the so-called "rejected" tracks)
is in the box set released 9/23.
R Shapiro <rsha...@bbn.com> wrote in article
<rshapiro-041...@ipa.bbn.com>...
> In article <6146q5$8...@camel21.mindspring.com>, hlo...@pipeline.com (H.
> Loess) wrote:
>
> >the three new tracks in the Vanguard
> >box were listed as 'rejected'
>
> I've never understood the meaning of 'rejected' in the context of an
issue
> or reissue that's specifically intended to include alternate takes.
> Rejected by whom, and when? How are these 'rejected' tracks any different
> from the other 'previously unissued' ones that someone other than artist
> decided, after the fact, should appear after all?
>
> rs/rsha...@bbn.com
>
David Wild
I probably shouldn't have posted these bits of information piecemeal. Let
me try again:
(1) Re unissued Birdland material: my 1979 discography (based on direct
research at Impulse) listed two more tracks, Mr. PC and Rockin, as "lost"
because they were listed in the files as having been recorded but did not
exist (as tapes) in the vaults. Some of this material has begun to turn up
in the possession of the Coltrane family, and it's likely additional
material will be released (Stellar Regions turned up as a studio reel;
whether the other material is in as good shape I don't know). Fuji changed
"lost" to "unissued" in his discography, which is beginning to seem like a
wise move.
(2) Re VV '66: it's possible more exists (only two tracks were released
after all). Nothing else was listed in the files.
(3) Re VV '61: everything in the vault that was in existence in the '70's
(which is also everything listed in the files) has now been released in the
box set. That includes a number of tracks which were identified as
rejected back then (probably a poor choice of words on our part--I think it
just meant that there were no plans to release them back then, not that
there was anything wrong technically or musically with the tapes).
Pjsimon
Oh, well. I'll try this once more, a little more clearly, though Martin did get
the point accurately and politely answered it (thanks).
1. No, I don't think Christie's illustrations are on a level with Picasso. I
was responding to the implication that (radical or semi-radical) altering of
the figure was an insult or desecration of the subject. I was trying to make
the point that I for one am in favor of interpretation in art as in music.
Someone earlier did ask if all the visual conservatives would say that we
should only listen to the original the Broadway version of My Favorite Things.
I wasn't making a quality judgment but a generic one. Like, some people's
versions of My Favorite Things probably suck (to use a technical art history
term).
Even the most open-minded may not this interpretation of Coltrane, and
that is personal taste. Some people only like Elvis on velvet, and others
adore DeKooning.
As to personal taste, I'll come clean. I personally don't like DeKooning much
but have spent lots of time with his work and respect it. I think the Christie
illustrations are intersting but even less radical than the music, which I
have been listening to for 2 days. (Local price report: Tower selling it for
under $40. I got for about $35 with a slight NARAS discount). I love best the
way pieces of Christie's illustrations are pulled out and used inside the
record sleeves. I think some of the portraits inside the book are fabulous,
and the overall graphic design is superb. (With the useless reservation that I
don't much like the Impulse-Halloween color scheme. That's personal opinion,
and it seems to have worked for them over time -- as for Princeton. There. Now
I've blown MY chance of working for Impulse or Princeton:))
By the way, if you buy the box, you'll find plenty of photos inside. I think I
said it here once before, but y'all seem to forget that when dealing with dead
artists, most of the great photos have been published, some over and over,
which is one of many reasons to take a risk and go with a fresh, artistic
point of view. Maybe someone's got a hidden stash of spectacular unpublished
Coltrane photos that they're willing to release at a reasonable fee. Please
do!
I do think it's better when people actually see a package or hear a disc before
they rip it to shreds...or praise it. I HOPE that makes my point of view
clear. I am certainly not going to write any more about this.
page simon
R. Lynn Rardin
> Please keep the press releases and other flackery in the
> marketplace newsgroups where they belong. I've seen many newsgroups
> killed off by creeping commercialization, and I don't want that to
> happen here.
Isn't it too late, Tom? It seems that many rmbers (not me--I want to
be clear about that) are more than happy to see commercial posts here
(see the Sudnow thread, for instance). Hasn't the battle already been
lost?
Brian Passingham
In article <7x80ZMAf...@sagent.demon.co.uk>, Brian Passingham
<br...@sagent.demon.co.uk> writes
>In article <3431C9...@amita.montrealnet.ca>, Michel
><for...@amita.montrealnet.ca> writes
>>Jon Vanhala wrote:
>>>
>>> after all the comments prior to release on the Impulse! John Coltrane
>>> Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings 4 cd box I'm surprised that
>>> there have been minimal comments now that it's out and finally
>>> available.........
>>>
>>> what do ya think?
>>
>>
>>Michel
>>Montreal
>
> Me too. I've ordered it, but this was amazingly difficult -
>no details on the shop's computer system, nothing on the relevant weekly
>release list, ...
>
> There's been some good publicity for the discs in England
>(including the obligatory 5-star review in last Friday's Guardian), but
>the distributors seem to be fouling up ...
>
>-- Brian Passingham
>-- Somewhere in the north of England
Well, apparently it isn't officially out here until Monday,
presumably to punish England for cloth-eared clowns like Tynan and
Larkin ("one long air-leak" indeed).
I am, therefore, obviously just using my imagination when I say
that the music is stunningly good. I can't say any more about it than
that at the moment (halfway through Friday's "India").
The artwork doesn't bother me too much - I bought this to listen
to, not to look at. Some of it just about works, some of it doesn't (is
one of the photos of Coltrane reversed?). The form of the packaging,
though, does trouble me a bit, just because I fear for the CDs in that
cardboard. I'd've preferred 2-fer jewel cases, myself, though straight
digi-paks would have done.
I look forward to Impulse commissioning some contemporary work
of the same quality.
-- Brian Passingham
Gremal
R. Lynn Rardin <rardin%or...@binah.cc.brandeis.edu> wrote in article
<rardin-0510...@rardin.ne.mediaone.net>...
To some extent--yes. IMO Vanhala qualifies as a jazz fan who can
contribute more than 2 dimensional commercial posts. While he obviously
does promote Impulse's releases, he does so by trying to generate interest
in them and getting people's opinions about them, which is much better than
spamming or writing a for sale ype of post. Spam and FS posts are what
really kill a newsgroup.
I take issue with some other things Tom said, but definitely understand the
attitude. Going back to Tom's post, I don't think Vanhala wants to have a
medal pinned on his chest. He just wants to hear the obvious: the V V box
is very well conceived and the remastering is flawless if you overlook the
inevitable dropouts due to the master tapes.
I got over 4 hours' worth of excellent music and some questionable
illustrations for my money. True, this box should have been out a long
time ago, but better late than never. And no, I don't think this material
is of interest to only die hard trane fans. By no means.
John DeChello
Jon Vanhala wrote:
>
> On 2 Oct 1997 21:23:00 GMT, tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu () wrote:
> >BTW, your claim to be an independent agent rather than a record
> >company weasel is now shot to shit. You've done nothing in rmb
> >but blatantly promote this release for the last month. Please
> >keep the press releases and other flackery in the marketplace
> >newsgroups where they belong. I've seen many newsgroups killed
> >off by creeping commercialization, and I don't want that to
> >happen here.
>
> I have made no claim to be an independent agent so I'm not sure where
> you got that. All my postings for the last 2 years plus include a
> signature that tells people where I work (except for a rare few that
> were posted on a new newsreader that I'd forgotten to set up properly)
IMO, Posting the info here -- as well as getting feedback -- is one of
the most valuable features of the Internet, as music is concerned. here
we have the opportunity to read info that is usually only available to
retail buyers, and many of them just aren't interested. I think Jon
is to be commended for even caring about what we think -- would you
rather have labels ignore your feelings about releases?
I used to be a retail buyer. The best time of the week was Monday
morning, when the reps from the various labels and major distributors
came in and traded news, promos, jokes -- these are things completely
missing from most of the sterile chains that most are forced to buy
from.
Now, that said, if one of the label reps came in and tried to hype us
on something, he'd get soundly abused. Yes, impersonal hype should
be left to the .marketplace heirarchy. Real info about jazz projects
from all perspectives -- labels, clubs, radio stations (what's left)
should all be using this gathering place to strengthen our collective
knowledge about jazz. That also includes the economic and sociological
factors that affect what *is* released, and what *is* played on the
radio.
Jon's use of this newsgroup stands out because there aren't too many
other labels who are doing it correctly; at least not yet. Keeping
the info fan-based and conversational, rather than hype-driven, is
the key.
John
Jan Johannsen
On 3 Oct 1997 16:52:47 GMT, sch...@fas.harvard.edu (Adam Schneit)
wrote:
>Jonathan Meltzer (jmel...@world.std.com) wrote:
>: Question: now that VV and Impressions are now obsolete, what will happen
>: to Impressions' studio cuts?
>
>recently released as additional music on the reissue of the album
>"Coltrane.
which collects all studio recordings with Roy Haynes on drums.
Jan
Tom Walls
In article <01bcd0f3$1ce48560$28032599@default>, "Gremal"
<"gre...@earthlink.net"> wrote:
>
> Abstract illustrations in no way can be compared to abstract music. Nor
> can the criticism of abstract illustrations in any way be compared to the
> criticism of abstract music (especially in the case of a box which is
> directed at Trane fans (!)).
>
This is absurd. I could the entire afternoon making analogies. Take it back.
> As Leroi Jones pointed out in his essay, "Hunting is Not Those Heads on the
> Wall," illustration is "after-the-fact" art in which the act of inspiration
> and creation comes separate from the product, which is framed there on the
> wall or, as fate may have it, immortalized in a box set. Needless to say,
> jazz is not like that as the art is being produced fleetingly at the moment
> of creation and you could say that's one reason why jazz albums tend to
> have photographic representations showing the artist in the act of creating
> on the cover. After all, we're interested in the music, not "heads on the
> wall".
>
More often than not even the most spontaneous improvisation exists in the
mind befor it is manifest aurally.
--
Psychromatically Yours,
Tom Walls
Gremal
Tom Walls <tw...@cornell.edu> wrote in article
<tw25-06109...@132.236.22.215>...
> In article <01bcd0f3$1ce48560$28032599@default>, "Gremal"
> <"gre...@earthlink.net"> wrote:
>
> >
> > Abstract illustrations in no way can be compared to abstract music.
Nor
> > can the criticism of abstract illustrations in any way be compared to
the
> > criticism of abstract music (especially in the case of a box which is
> > directed at Trane fans (!)).
> This is absurd. I could the entire afternoon making analogies. Take it
back.
Yeah, it does sound pretty stupid but I still believe it at some level.
How bout this--abstract illustration in no meaningful and conclusive way
can be compared to abstract music. You could spend your entire _life_
making analogies. "That note is placed as precisely as a dot in a Seurat."
What does it mean? Nothing.
> > As Leroi Jones pointed out in his essay, "Hunting is Not Those Heads on
the
> > Wall," illustration is "after-the-fact" art in which the act of
inspiration
> > and creation comes separate from the product, which is framed there on
the
> > wall or, as fate may have it, immortalized in a box set. Needless to
say,
> > jazz is not like that as the art is being produced fleetingly at the
moment
> > of creation and you could say that's one reason why jazz albums tend to
> > have photographic representations showing the artist in the act of
creating
> > on the cover. After all, we're interested in the music, not "heads on
the
> > wall".
> More often than not even the most spontaneous improvisation exists in the
> mind befor it is manifest aurally.
But it is not sitting there on a page or on the wall for everyone to see
when it's done. Even captured on CD each moment of improvisation is
unfolding constantly--add to it the dynamics of group play and you have
something completely different from illustration. I would say
incomparable, but you wouldn't.
Anyway, I'm not saying anything new about improvisation. My point was
that, just because some Coltrane fans (myself included) don't like the
illustrations in the V V box doesn't mean we 1-don't like abstract art,
2-would have criticized Trane back in '60, or 3-should be happy with
ghoulish images of Trane in a box built to house some of his most powerful
live music.
kur...@techinter.com
In article <19971001163...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
dro...@aol.com (D Royko) wrote:
>
> Haven't bought it yet, but amazingly, by this past weekend, the Tower at
> Clark and Belden in Chicago had sold out. What a bunch of mopes to
> underorder something like this.
>
> Dave Royko
Fantastic. Sorely Needed.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Charles H Berg
I gotta cover Jon's back here too. We took him over the coals back in
the day when he 1st appeared here and he did an admirable job of
hearing us and chaning his ways. Nowadays, when I read jon's posts I
can expect some good fan-directed, inside info. from a musician on the
inside of the rekkid biz.
Sorry, Tom, this time your screed is misplaced.
--
Charlie Berg
c...@world.std.com
Piotr Michalowski
Wel, I finally found a copy of Live at the Vanguard, paid too much for
it, but who cares. The music is divine and the sound great. The rest
does not matter very much. As long as all of this is available, with
great notes, I can live with the rather horrid art. I think that the
company, as well as some fans here spends too much on packaging. It is
really a secondary matter. I know much of this material almost by heart,
but I am extremely happy to have it all in one package.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Piotr Michalowski Office phone:
313-764-0314
Dept. of Near Eastern Studies Fax: 313-936-2679
3074 Frieze Building Home page:
www.umich.edu/
University of Michigan
~neareast/pages/faculty/
Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1285 michalow.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Moriarty
I would like to see labels list their new releases here - just the
facts - title, personnel, tunes
Michel
In the most recent issue of JazzTimes, Bill Shoemaker concludes his
review with this statement: "You don't have to be an industry apologist
to argue that late is better than ever; but, you don't have to be a
muckraker to wonder about the inertia in corporate America that keeps
treasures like "The Complete VV recordings" in the vaults for so long."
I could not agree more.
By the way, still no sign of the boxset in Montreal... :-(
R. Lynn Rardin
In article <61e3k0$i95$4...@fddinewz.oit.unc.edu>, walter...@unc.edu
(Walter Davis) wrote:
> In article <CHB.97Oc...@world.std.com>, c...@world.std.com (Charles
H Berg) wrote:
> >Sorry, Tom, this time your screed is misplaced.
>
> I wouldn't go that far, Tom's just a little less tolerant of this than
> others.
I agree. Tom sometimes goes off the deep end (sorry Tom :^), but his post
that began this thread appeared shortly after I'd come to a very similar
conclusion about some of Jon Vanhala's recent posts.
Tom can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what set him off was Jon's
fairly obvious attempts to get threads started on Impulse! product, then
fan the flames to keep the threads going. Although, as Tom pointed out,
Jon isn't being subversive about his connection to Impulse!, Jon's
recent posts also brought to my mind the whole C-man/C Notes Interactive
debacle of 3 years ago (see Jeff Preston's web page on this at
http://www.addimension.com/atav/jeff/cpamman.html)
Then David Hargis posted today:
DH> Horace Silver's first major label quintet recording in 25 years,
DH> "Prescription for the Blues," is in stores today (10/7) and features
DH> Michael Brecker, Randy Brecker, Ron Carter, and Louis Hayes.
DH>
DH> We'd love to hear any thoughts you want to share.
Except for the fact that David makes it fairly clear that he works
for Impulse! (Impulse! Records is listed as his organization in the header
even if he doesn't use an Impulse! sig), the basic aim of his post seems
to be fairly similar to that of a typical C-man's post (that is, to get
a thread going on new product).
I don't mean to say in any way that either David or Jon are evil people
or that they are unwelcome in rmb. They seem like perfectly nice guys and
they've (especially Jon, since he's been around longer) have contributed
some interesting and useful information to rmb. And as others have
pointed out, it's fun and useful to have record biz insiders taking part
in rmb. But I hate to see their posts drop to the level of trying to suck
people into doing their advertising for them by starting and prolonging
threads on their products. When it comes to people who post regarding
products in which they have a commercial interest, I'm only interested in
the facts. Even factual posts could be considered "commercials" for
the product. Posts that contain more than the simple facts are almost
certainly commercials, in my opinion, and for that reason are inappropriate
in a non-commercial newsgroup like rec.music.bluenote.
Tom Walls
In article <61eab9$r...@winter.news.erols.com>, tj...@erols.com (Thomas
Moriarty) wrote:
> I would like to see labels list their new releases here - just the
> facts - title, personnel, tunes
I don't like the idea of the newsgroup bing flooded with record company
release sheets, and/or market research questionaires. I think Vanhala
should post to the newsgroup as an individual, not as a record company
spokesperson. For his sake, as well as ours.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <61eab9$r...@winter.news.erols.com> tj...@erols.com (Thomas Moriarty) writes:
>I would like to see labels list their new releases here - just the
>facts - title, personnel, tunes
This is a discussion newsgroup. Perhaps you should consider starting
a newsgroup for music industry press releases. Or, you could just
go to their web site and read them there. But advertisements are
not appropriate in rmb.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <CHB.97Oc...@world.std.com> c...@world.std.com (Charles H Berg) writes:
>I gotta cover Jon's back here too. We took him over the coals back in
>the day when he 1st appeared here and he did an admirable job of
>hearing us and chaning his ways.
You need to check out the data. Go to dejanews, type in his address,
then come back and tell me that 99% of his posts aren't intended
to promote GRP product.
>Nowadays, when I read jon's posts I
>can expect some good fan-directed, inside info. from a musician on the
>inside of the rekkid biz.
Again, your perception does not square with the data. Anyway, the
kind of posts you're talking about are perfectly fine with everybody.
What is at issue is GRP's using rmb for commercial purposes, which
is out of line.
H. Loess
jvan...@unistudios.com (Jon Vanhala) wrote:
>On 7 Oct 1997 19:47:12 GMT, walter...@unc.edu (Walter Davis) wrote:
>>I wouldn't go that far, Tom's just a little less tolerant of this than
>>others. But Jon's pretty clearly here as part of his job.
>I understand why you'd assume that but for the record i post here from
>home generally and on my own time - posting on RMB is definately not
>what Impulse! pays me to do nor is it in my job description.....I'm
>into the net, I'm into my job, and I'm into jazz from all sources as
>well as Impulse! releases.
Right. You post Impulse press releases here because that's simply what
interests you on your own time. That you confine your posting here almost
exclusively to Impulse artists and releases, apparently confine your reading
to these topics as well (one would not have had to do much random lurking to
have been at least somewhat aware of Walt's various activities in the
service of getting this music heard, before challenging him on this), and
initiate threads soliciting discussion of Impulse artists and releases, only
shows why you chose to work there. That you also post Impulse announcements
to various other music groups only demonstartes the breadth of your musical
interests.
I don't know why some people feel that Tom has failed to make his point
clear, but if so, perhaps your above-quoted post will help make it clearer.
--
Henry L.
hlo...@pipeline.com
Jon Vanhala
On 7 Oct 1997 19:47:12 GMT, walter...@unc.edu (Walter Davis) wrote:
>I wouldn't go that far, Tom's just a little less tolerant of this than
>others. But Jon's pretty clearly here as part of his job.
I understand why you'd assume that but for the record i post here from
home generally and on my own time - posting on RMB is definately not
what Impulse! pays me to do nor is it in my job description.....I'm
into the net, I'm into my job, and I'm into jazz from all sources as
well as Impulse! releases.
> And of
>course his info is "fan-directed", all marketing info is. I would
>prefer it if his info was a lot less "fan-directed" and was more along
>the lines of "here's the next list of reissues" and dealing with factual
>questions directed to him, and we didn't get any of the hype, press
>releases, and other Impulse pr info.
>But Jon's info/crap ratio is pretty good in my book.
tx walt
Jon Vanhala
Impulse! Records
jvan...@unistudios.com
2 jazz pagans
Small observation. I just got my computer back after a day and a half
(blown power supply), and rmb had about 250 postings. It seems as if
about half of them (deliberate overstatement, but perhaps not by much)
were on this thread, thus taking up way more space, and far less
usefully, than anything Jon Vanhala has done. I would grant that the
other recent Impulse! posting (not Jon's), fishing for feedback on the
new Horace Silver, wasn't completely out front, was on the devious side,
but I don't have a lot of problem's with Jon's postings. Certainly
nothing he has done has been as objectionable as some of the attacks on
him. FWIW.
- JRB
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
>On 7 Oct 1997 19:47:12 GMT, walter...@unc.edu (Walter Davis) wrote:
>> And of
>>course his info is "fan-directed", all marketing info is. I would
>>prefer it if his info was a lot less "fan-directed" and was more along
>>the lines of "here's the next list of reissues" and dealing with factual
>>questions directed to him, and we didn't get any of the hype, press
>>releases, and other Impulse pr info.
The thing is, the hype is so unnecessary. If the releases are noteworthy,
we're going to discuss them anyway. You don't have to worry about folks
not noticing stuff being released. And nobody objects to informative,
non-hype postings. Stop provoking threads on your own product, stop
posting press releases, and no one would have a problem.
I point to Jack Woker as the class marketing act of rmb, a guy who is
sure to get lots of business just by being such a great citizen and
never wearing out his welcome by hyping himself. He doesn't even
have the name of his store in his sig, although I'm sure no one
would object if he did.
Walter Davis
In article <61j94h$l...@drn.zippo.com>,
George Traynor <radia...@idsonline.com> wrote:
>
>I think Tom has made himself very clear. What Tom has failed at, is
getting a
>unanimous opinion on this subject.
>
Gee, other opinions are unanimous, so Tom's opinion must be fucking
nuts.
And are you sure it's not pretty close to unanimous? Do you want record
company employees coming into newsgroups and
discussing/recommending/generating threads on their releases without
disclosing their affiliation? Do you no longer want to be able to trust
that a post is coming from a fan rather than someone paid to express
that opinion? Does anyone really think that's "good?"
-walt
Walter Davis walter...@unc.edu or
Health Data Analyst at the wda...@irss.unc.edu
Institute for Research in Social Science ph: (919) 962-1019
UNC - Chapel Hill fax: (919) 962-4777
Walter Davis
In article <61mhe4$r...@drn.zippo.com>,
George Traynor <radia...@idsonline.com> wrote:
>>
>>Do you want record
>>company employees coming into newsgroups and
>>discussing/recommending/generating threads on their releases without
>>disclosing their affiliation?
>
otherwise.
Right, yet a few months ago he was doing otherwise in OTHER newsgroups.
That calls into question his motivations for being online and his
motivations for posting to rmb.
>
>Was Jon behaving the same way as the weasel from Atlantic did?
When he first arrived here, yes. Since then on rmb, no. But we've
provided posts from Jon to OTHER newsgroups where he has. The
difference is in volume.
>You seem to be
>straddling the fence here at times, saying Jon's behavior is borderline
against
>this rmb charter, ready for Jon to fall on either side of it. Which is
it Walt?
>Should Jon be banned?
There is no "banning" that can be done. There's pretty much jackshit
any of us can do to stop Jon from posting. Something tells me the
postmaster at unistudios.com isn't going to take his net access away.
All we can do is bitch and moan and point out the improprieties in an
effort to mobilize enough people to keep rmb and other newsgroups free
of advertising.
Jon's behavior on rmb straddles the fence of "acceptable advertising
behavior" on rmb. A list of new releases would seem to be
"informational". A press release would seem to be "hype". Starting
discussion on Impulse artists would appear to be an attempt to create
interest where none was being expressed (by someone with a commercial
interest in such interest). Not participating widely in non-Impulse
threads, not participating in much discussion of non-Impulse recordings,
not providing much other than what appears to be corporate positions on
business issues at least suggests that the motivation behind the posts
are not those of a fan providing information but those of a promoter
hawking products.
Jon's behavior on other newsgroups is clearly far outside the bounds of
"acceptable advertising" on the net.
To be fair to Jon, his participation in threads which aren't (at least
on the surface) Impulse threads is more extensive than I thought before
checking dejanews, mainly early jazz and trombone threads (threads
which I generally wouldn't read). I have not read those posts so I
don't know if he's participating as a fan or just happens to turn the
discussion towards some releases on Decca. This percentage is not high,
but it looks higher to me than the 1% that Tom Brown has attributed to
it. But I think it's fair to say that approximately 90% of Jon's posts
are Impulse-related.
>
>And whatever happened to those internet 'blue ribbons' that I used to
see at
>almost every website that I've visited?
They're still there and those same blue ribbons "protect" my right to
expose unethical advertising which violates the norms of usenet.
And don't forget, those little blue ribbons are about the right for
someone to make information available through appropriate internet means
for people who seek such information. They are not about the right for
someone, for example, to start posting pornographic stories in rmb.
Impulse has a web site through which they can disseminate information
and even advertise. They can establish a mailing list which people can
subscribe to. There are marketplace groups for them to post their list
of what they have for sale. rmb is for the discussion of jazz, blues,
and related issues, not promotional material from commercial interests.
> Do
>you think that announcement should be banned?
>
"Announcements", once, brief, info without hype, are fine in my book.
Starting discussion threads about your own products and posting hype are
not.
For the record, I do not care for Jamey Aebersold posting commercial
material here, I do not care for Jeff Spirer seeming to participate only
in Axiom-related threads (although it's not clear that he has a
financial connection to Axiom anyway), I do not care for Sudnow's posts,
and I do not care for musicians hawking their gigs or cd's when they are
not regular participants of rmb. I'd be all in favor of a complete and
total ban on all posts with any commercial content whatsoever. I would
love to be without Jon's informational posts -- they've never told me
much that I didn't already know and wasn't available from genuine fans
on rmb anyway. It'd be unenforceable though.
But, on the other hand, we all have to choose our fights. All those
folks post here rather rarely. Aebersold seems to limit himself to 1
post a month, Spirer's not very active, we haven't seen Sudnow in some
time (when he was a pest, his posts were objected to quite strongly),
and musicians usually only post once or twice. I've yet to see
Aebersold start a thread prompting discussion of the latest BN releases,
releases on Double Time, his course material, or mysteriously pop up in
a Blakey thread recommending some titles and offering to supply them.
Double Time has released some pretty nice stuff, including I believe a
recent disk featuring Richie Beirach, but I didn't notice him jumping
into the Beirach thread to let us all know that. If he's doing those
things, then by all means somebody let the rest of us know.
And then there's this fact. Even I have grown weary of the battle
against advertising, just because it takes too much effort to fight off
all these followup posts from folks who think you're against free
speech, overthrowing the capitalist system, an obnoxious asshole for
just raising a fuss to begin with, or off your fucking rocker. But when
someone else starts the fight (Tom Brown in this case) and gets jumped
on in return, they can count on my full support.
(and I love this idea that I have a vendetta against Jon. Yes, there
was that long thread, but Jon barely participated and participated only
to "defend" David. My criticisms were of Impulse, not Jon (although
David took an early hit). It was mainly me and Ashley arguing, so if I
held a grudge (which I don't) it should be against him.)
I have not been straddling the fence nearly as much as everyone seems to
think. When Tom first posted, I responded that although I objected to
some of Jon's practices, his info/crap ratio was pretty high. At that
point I still believed Jon was primarily here for legitimate purposes.
Then Tom posted about Jon's activities on other newsgroups. When I
checked those out, those activities are so clearly outside the bounds of
"acceptable advertising" on the net that the "case against Jon" was
ironclad in my mind. If he had been upfront about his affiliation in
those posts, I might have cut him some slack. But he was clearly and
intentionally being deceptive for promotional purposes on those
newsgroups. Since there was always a strong possibility that his
presence in this group was promotional in purpose, this clear evidence
from other newsgroups made that a very, very strong possibility in my
mind. In fact, I consider it pretty much 100%, although I can
understand that others may not think it that high.
So that leaves the question of whether the promotional presence is a
good or bad thing for rmb and the rest of usenet. I'm pretty clear on
where I stand on that issue and I'm trying to convince others of the
same. If you want to have confidence that the discussion here is
legitimate and fan-based, not promotional and paid-for and overflowing
with ads, you have to keep a very close eye on those with commercial
interests and accept as little advertising as possible.
So far, most of the arguments to the contrary have been "he's not
obnoxious about it", "he doesn't spam", "other folks are getting away
with it", and "advertising is everywhere so why should it bother you
that it's here?" Those aren't very strong arguments.
Walter Davis
In article <61ops8$k...@drn.zippo.com>,
George Traynor <radia...@idsonline.com> wrote:
>
>That's right, free speech begats free speech. He has a right to say
it, and you
>have a right to object. So what?
>
So my objections to Jon's actions should not be equated with trying to
deny Jon the right to free speech, which is what you were doing.