Daahoud -- what's it mean?
Sam Hokin
name the tune "Daahoud".
--
Sam Hokin ho...@juno.physics.wisc.edu
Thomas Marriott
To my knowledge Daahoud means David in arabic. But just who David is I
dunno.
-Thomas Marriott
Bop Cop
He named the tune after Talib Dawud, my father. Dawud is the Arabic eqivalent
of David, meaning "my beloved". They were trumpet-playing acquaintences in
Philly in the early '50s, along with Diz and Lee.
Idris
Laurie Sonnenfeld
If anyone else knows, I'll be glad to learn.
Jim Andrews (c/o lau...@teleport.com)
--
lau...@teleport.COM Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-1016 (2400-14400, N81)
Steve Robinson
I'm impressed, Idris. Thanks for sharing that. It's the kind of inside
information one hopes to get from rmb.
Steve
Benedict Ritchie (PA)
: Having been in a Brownie mode lately, I wonder how he came to
--
As far as I know, Daahoud was the name of Cliffords drug dealer.
Thats what my Jazz History prof. told me anyway, and I guess he
knows. Brownie was a fine trumpet player, but no angel...
__ ____ ________________________________________________________
| \| \ | | E-Mail: Ritc...@phymat.bham.ac.uk |
|_/|___|\ | | |
| \| | \| | "It's a fairly embarrasing situation to admit that we |
|_/|___| | | cannot find 90% of the universe" |
-------------|________________________________________________________|
Erik Friedlander
>To my knowledge Daahoud means David in arabic. But just who David is I
dunno.
>-Thomas Marriott
very up tempo, lots of fun, check it out.
--
Erik Friedlander
New York City
================<+>
Steve Robinson
Sorry, Ben, but I don't think that could possibly be correct. You should
promptly correct your Jazz History Prof. I know several people who were
very friendly with Brownie and they all agree on one point: essentially,
he WAS an angel. That is, in a period when many other musicians were
into substance abuse on a variety of levels, Clifford didn't even drink
alcohol or smoke tobacco.
Also, I refer you to a post by Idris Dawud (I think his current "handle"
is Bop Cop), himself a trumpeter, who says the song was named after his
father, who was a trumpeter Clifford hung out with in Philadelphia.
I wonder if you have confused "Daahoud" with a Charlie Parker piece,
"Moose the Mooch?" My understanding is "Moose the Mooch" was named after
a drug dealer in New York. We all know that Bird was no angel, to use
your terminology.
Steve Robinson
Seattle, WA
stev...@u.washington.edu
Bop Cop
>
>
>On 10 Mar 1995, Benedict Ritchie wrote:
>
>> --
>> As far as I know, Daahoud was the name of Cliffords drug dealer.
>> Thats what my Jazz History prof. told me anyway, and I guess he
>> knows. Brownie was a fine trumpet player, but no angel...
>> __ ____ ________________________________________________________
>> | \| \ | | E-Mail: Ritc...@phymat.bham.ac.uk |
>>
>Sorry, Ben, but I don't think that could possibly be correct. You should
>promptly correct your Jazz History Prof. I know several people who were
>very friendly with Brownie and they all agree on one point: essentially,
>he WAS an angel. That is, in a period when many other musicians were
>into substance abuse on a variety of levels, Clifford didn't even drink
>alcohol or smoke tobacco.
>
>Also, I refer you to a post by Idris Dawud (I think his current "handle"
>is Bop Cop), himself a trumpeter, who says the song was named after his
>father, who was a trumpeter Clifford hung out with in Philadelphia.
>
>I wonder if you have confused "Daahoud" with a Charlie Parker piece,
>"Moose the Mooch?" My understanding is "Moose the Mooch" was named after
>a drug dealer in New York. We all know that Bird was no angel, to use
>your terminology.
>
> Steve Robinson
Thanks Steve. I almost had a heart attack. Imagine, my dad being Clifford
Browns drug dealer!! O' Lord! I could never show my face again in public.
Hey Ben, who is the Prof.? I'd better drop him a line if you don't mind. I
don't think he should spread that too much further. But you're right Steve
about Moose the Mooch and Bird. Brownie was a saint. Damn, the more I think
about it, that's sad that something would even get out like that about Brown in
an institute of higher learning.
To go a little further, there was the more well know side of jazz musicians who
used drugs, but there was also a very straight laced, spiritual crop of guys
too, but you'll never hear about that. A lot of these guys studied and some
adopted Middle Eastern religions, including Diz and Art. Coletrane was
studying too, and it influenced his later music a lot.
Idris
Stephen Guattery
>I wonder if you have confused "Daahoud" with a Charlie Parker piece,
>"Moose the Mooch?" My understanding is "Moose the Mooch" was named after
>a drug dealer in New York. We all know that Bird was no angel, to use
>your terminology.
"Moose the Mooche" was Emry Byrd, a Los Angeles drug dealer. According to
Ross Russell, Parker ended up signing over half his Dial royalties to Byrd
in return for heroin.
Steve Guattery
s...@cs.cmu.edu
Jill Emily Solek
progression as "I Got Rhythm." I think Josh Redman recently
recorded this tune.
--
//// //// //// //// **********************************
| |/| |/| |/ | |/ * Jill Emily Solek *
__| |/| |/| |///| |/// * je...@darwin.clas.virginia.edu *
\____/ |__|/|_____||_____| **********************************
Jan R. Klincewocz
> about it, that's sad that something would even get out like that about Brown in
> an institute of higher learning.
Ditto - Brownie is one of the few musicians of the era to have achieved such
a stature, yet can be looked up to as positive role model for young kids. It is highly
irresponsible, especially for a professor, to cavalierly besmirch a reputation that
was probably difficult enough to maintain. Here in Philly, I've known a lot of Jazz players
over the years, a lot of junkies and drunks, but also a lot of family men who work
extremely hard at making a living playing in a hostile environment. Anyone who had the
strength to avoid the readily available vices (for whatever reason) is deserving of respect
and admiration.
Laurie Sonnenfeld
Benedict Ritchie (PA) <Ritc...@ugsun1a.bham.ac.uk> wrote:
>--
> As far as I know, Daahoud was the name of Cliffords drug dealer.
>Thats what my Jazz History prof. told me anyway, and I guess he
>knows. Brownie was a fine trumpet player, but no angel...
>__ ____ ________________________________________________________
>| \| \ | | E-Mail: Ritc...@phymat.bham.ac.uk |
>|_/|___|\ | | |
>| \| | \| | "It's a fairly embarrasing situation to admit that we |
>|_/|___| | | cannot find 90% of the universe" |
>-------------|________________________________________________________|
What's the point of reposting this trash? Enough replies have shown
that Jazz History Professor doesn't know what he's talking about, and
that RitchieBW seems to want to create false stories. We have few
enough heroes, and to denigrate the ones we have.........you should
be ashamed of yourself, RitchiBW.
Jim "Loaded With Ill-Will At This Nincompoopery" Andrews
(with some apology to Garth)
cor...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
> (Snip) . . . there was also a very straight laced, spiritual crop of guys
> too, but you'll never hear about that. A lot of these guys studied and some
> adopted Middle Eastern religions, including Diz and Art.
>
This brings to mind something I've always wondered about. You can't help
noticing all the jazz musicians of the late '40's & early '50's with names like
Sadik Hakim, Idrees Sulieman (sp?), and Talib Dawud, and, while I'm sure the
answer may be different in each case, I'd like to know what was up.
Pauline Kael, if memory serves, complained that among the things left out of
the movie _Bird_ was the sense of black pride felt by many of the boppers, a
sense reflected by the fact that many of them had taken up Islam and adopted
Islamic names.
Was there any kind of black nationalism at work among the boppers, and was that
what was driving them toward these religions? Also, were the people who took
up Islam taking up "orthodox" Islam, or the kind practiced by the Nation of
Islam, the people they used to call "Black Muslims?" Again, the
answer may be different in different particular cases, but I wonder if there
was a general trend--and I especially wonder about Art Blakey, who of course
adopted the name Abdullah Ibn Buhaina (again, sp?), but who wouldn't seem to
have been likely to believe that white people had been created on an island
by an evil scientist (which is what they preached, and still preach, in "the
Nation").
Idris seems to be in a uniquely good position to address these questions, but
I'd welcome anybody's help in finding out about this stuff.
Harvey Cormier
Bop Cop
>noticing all the jazz musicians of the late '40's & early '50's with names like
>Sadik Hakim, Idrees Sulieman (sp?), and Talib Dawud, and, while I'm sure the
>answer may be different in each case, I'd like to know what was up.
>
>Pauline Kael, if memory serves, complained that among the things left out of
>the movie _Bird_ was the sense of black pride felt by many of the boppers, a
>sense reflected by the fact that many of them had taken up Islam and adopted
>Islamic names.
>
>Was there any kind of black nationalism at work among the boppers, and was that
>what was driving them toward these religions? Also, were the people who took
>up Islam taking up "orthodox" Islam, or the kind practiced by the Nation of
>Islam, the people they used to call "Black Muslims?" Again, the
>answer may be different in different particular cases, but I wonder if there
>was a general trend--and I especially wonder about Art Blakey, who of course
>adopted the name Abdullah Ibn Buhaina (again, sp?), but who wouldn't seem to
>have been likely to believe that white people had been created on an island
>by an evil scientist (which is what they preached, and still preach, in "the
>Nation").
>
Hi. I wish I had time to elaborate, but I don't so I'll just say, that they
weren't "Black Muslims" bka "The Nation of Islam", which is to Islam like Kenny
G is to jazz (jokes, jokes). They were orthodox. I'll get back to you later
on this. (Miles disappointed me in his book because he deliberately ignores the
subject.)
Idris
Steve Robinson
Idris's childhood memories and the opportunity to learn a bit more about
his family. It sounds like you have the pedigree, Idris. Now, I'd like
to hear you play!
Steve
Bop Cop
No you wouldn't... @;^)
Ok, well maybe some year, if all goes as planned. I played out some in '94 but
I'm less inclined to do so anymore until I truly understand what I'm doing. I
hate "taking my knocks". I'm getting ready to head up east to go to school.
Being a trumpet player is a lot like being a gunslinger (when you're in NY at
least). So when I get up there I gotta make sure I'm packin' lead. But I'm
still relatively new at this, a little over 14 months or so. So you'll have to
be patient!
Idris
Bop Cop
>noticing all the jazz musicians of the late '40's & early '50's with names like
>Sadik Hakim, Idrees Sulieman (sp?), and Talib Dawud, and, while I'm sure the
>answer may be different in each case, I'd like to know what was up.
>
>Pauline Kael, if memory serves, complained that among the things left out of
>the movie _Bird_ was the sense of black pride felt by many of the boppers, a
>sense reflected by the fact that many of them had taken up Islam and adopted
>Islamic names.
>Was there any kind of black nationalism at work among the boppers, and was that
>what was driving them toward these religions? Also, were the people who took
>up Islam taking up "orthodox" Islam, or the kind practiced by the Nation of
>Islam, the people they used to call "Black Muslims?" >
I just wanted to break here to distinguish between black pride and Islamic
names. The ones that adopted Islamic names actually accepted Islam as a
religion, not just adopting the names, because those names are not "African"
per se, they're Arabic. When you find Africans with these names then it's the
result of the arabic influence in their country as well. So no, in general it
was not black nationalism at work.
However, there was "black pride" and "African awareness" factors of course
prevalent during those times as well, and it may have motivated some to seek
out an apparent "African" religion, however inaccurate that may have been. But
Talib and his movement were at odds with the ones who tried to pass Islam off
as a black nationalist thing - the Black Muslims (Nation of Islam). He filed
some sort of lawsuit in the PA. district courts or whatever to try to prevent
the NOI from using the names "Muslim" and "Islam", claiming it distorted the
real meaning and made life difficult for real Muslims. Of course this put the
Dawud family very much at odds with the Black Muslims and their famous
personality - Malcom X - so much so that when we lived in NY, we weren't
completely free to move about at all (as children). We were always "escorted"
by brothers who worked for my father and eventually we had to leave NY. (At
this point in his life he pretty much as abandoned his music career, although
he was still managing Dakota Staton's).
Lastly, the term "Jazz Messengers" was reference to the prophet of Islam who
was generically referred to as The Messenger. Originally they tried to put
together a big band called "the 17 Messengers" but I think they faced some
opposition from the industry, and it never got off the ground. As you can see,
a lot of the brothers never used their Muslim names, fearing prejudice from the
industry and public (eg. McCoy Tyner, Blakey, Dakota)
>Again, the
>answer may be different in different particular cases, but I wonder if there
>was a general trend--and I especially wonder about Art Blakey, who of course
>adopted the name Abdullah Ibn Buhaina (again, sp?), but who wouldn't seem to
>have been likely to believe that white people had been created on an island
>by an evil scientist (which is what they preached, and still preach, in "the
>Nation").
(referring to the movement headed my Louis Farrakkan, for clarification.)
>
>Harvey Cormier
>
Idris Dawud
Jeff Volkman
On Tue, 14 Mar 1995, Bop Cop wrote:
[snip]
> Being a trumpet player is a lot like being a gunslinger (when you're in NY at
> least). So when I get up there I gotta make sure I'm packin' lead. But I'm
> still relatively new at this, a little over 14 months or so. So you'll have to
> be patient!
>
> Idris
You're right about being a trumpet player. People (especially those who
don't know much) expect a lot from trumpet players. I played trumpet when
I was a kid, but I messed up my teeth/jaw and had switch instruments.
--Jeff
Jan R. Klincewicz
>This brings to mind something I've always wondered about. You can't help
>noticing all the jazz musicians of the late '40's & early '50's with names like
>Sadik Hakim, Idrees Sulieman (sp?), and Talib Dawud, and, while I'm sure the
>answer may be different in each case, I'd like to know what was up.
>
In Bill Crow's book of Jazz anecdotes, I recall one convert saying
that by adopting an Islamic name it was possible to circumvent being
labeled a "Negro" on your identification card. I can't vouch for the
authenticity of this reasoning, but according to the musician being
quoted, it was possible to stay at hotels which barred blacks.
I believe Dizzy and Art Blakey took up the B'hai (sp?) faith, hence their
adopted names. I'm sure many of these musicians were sincere in their
acceptance of Islam. I'd like to hear more on the subject from anyone
knowledgeable.
Jan R. Klincewicz
>"Moose the Mooche" was Emry Byrd, a Los Angeles drug dealer. According to
>Ross Russell, Parker ended up signing over half his Dial royalties to Byrd
>in return for heroin.
>
>
legal claim to monies from Parker even after he (Byrd)had a "change of address"
to San Quentin.
cor...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Messengers" was an especially interesting thing to learn, but it has all been
fascinating. Your father sounds like an important and unappreciated figure in
black history, and I hope any African-American-studies scholars who might be
reading the newsgroup will take note.
Harvey
Charles H Berg
>Again, the
>answer may be different in different particular cases, but I wonder if there
>was a general trend--and I especially wonder about Art Blakey, who of course
>adopted the name Abdullah Ibn Buhaina (again, sp?), but who wouldn't seem to
>have been likely to believe that white people had been created on an island
>by an evil scientist (which is what they preached, and still preach, in "the
>Nation").
Bu was Islamic, NOT Black Muslim (NOI). I can personally vouch that
he did not believe that white people were the devil. I have known few
kinder, pleasanter people. I miss him.
--
Charlie Berg
c...@world.std.com
Jeff Volkman
It sounds to me like Arab-American-studies scholars should take note too. :)
--Jeff
Robert Gwynne
> I believe Dizzy and Art Blakey took up the B'hai (sp?) faith, hence their
> adopted names. I'm sure many of these musicians were sincere in their
> acceptance of Islam. I'd like to hear more on the subject from anyone
> knowledgeable.
Dizzy was a B'hai, which is not an Islamic sect. B'hais accept all
religions. It originated in Iran, and B'hais are currently oppressed by
the Shia majority. I'll have to ask my wife, a professor of Islam, more
about the B'hais. Blakey, as I understand it, was a Muslim, not a B'hai.
The influence of Islam on African-American jazz musicians is interesting.
Where did they learn about Islam? Who learned about it in Africa, and
where in Africa.(Islam is practiced in sub-Saharan Africa as well as in
North Africa.) What jazz musicians have gone on the Haj? How closely do
they adhere to the religion. How has the music of Muslims affected
jazz.The list of questions goes on and on.
Idris, you should try to reconstruct what you know. It was especially
interesting to read what you said about the musicians belonging to
Orthodox Islam as oppossed to N.O.I. Jazz musicians are a cosmopolitan
lot who would have seen Sunni Islam in Europe and Islamic countries; so
they should have had (and have) the real thing to compare to N.O.I. Tell
us more Idris. Your on.
Bob Gwynne
gwy...@utkvx.utk.edu
Bop Cop
>In Bill Crow's book of Jazz anecdotes, I recall one convert saying
>that by adopting an Islamic name it was possible to circumvent being
>labeled a "Negro" on your identification card. I can't vouch for the
>authenticity of this reasoning, but according to the musician being
>quoted, it was possible to stay at hotels which barred blacks.
>
>I believe Dizzy and Art Blakey took up the B'hai (sp?) faith, hence their
>adopted names. I'm sure many of these musicians were sincere in their
>acceptance of Islam. I'd like to hear more on the subject from anyone
>knowledgeable.
I would guess that such reasoning came about as a convenient answer to "why are
they adopting Islamic names?", but I doubt whether that was prevalent. Of
course anythings possible and there are exceptions to every rule. But of the
ones I know of it was for spiritual reasons.
Diz was a Bahai, but Art was a Muslim.
Idris
Bop Cop
>
>[snip]
>
>> least). So when I get up there I gotta make sure I'm packin' lead. But I'm
>> still relatively new at this, a little over 14 months or so. So you'll have to
>> be patient!
>>
>> Idris
>
>don't know much) expect a lot from trumpet players. I played trumpet when
>I was a kid, but I messed up my teeth/jaw and had switch instruments.
>
>--Jeff
Wow, you must have been trying to blow like Faddis! What are you now, oh,
that's right, bass. Were you really young when you started out? (on tp. that
is) I know a lot of the older cats and some recent have messed up embochures,
well lips at least, from pressing to hard for the high notes. Most have
learned by now that you actually don't have to press or change your embochure
(sp?) at all. Roy Hargrove first hipped me to the fact that when he goes from
low to high he tries not to press or change you embochure. He said some guy
from Rutgers (turns out to be Prof. Fielder) taught all the new cats from
Wynton, Rooney on down how to breathe and blow. Anyway, Roy also states he
practices as soft as he can, to help his control. All that good stuff and he
didn't even charge me! One day I'll use it on him... @;^)
Later,
Idris
Bop Cop
Thanks. Well, I hope I didn't make it sound like he's not still living... @;^)
although I'm sure his story is not one that this society wants to hear that
much about... or else it would have been told already. We're still trying to
come to grips with Malcom X and other "radicals". As you know, different is
not very popular. But I'll tell ol' Spike to get on this right away!
Again, thanks.
Idris
Jeff Volkman
I started in 3rd grade, played for 4 or 5 years, then injured my jaw when
I fell off my skateboard. That changed my embouchure (sp?), then not long
after that I got braces on my teeth, which dashed my comeback hopes. But
I was happy to try out other instruments. My dad played drums, and hosted
jam sessions at our place a lot, and bass worked out well. Bass is cool,
but it's worlds away from trumpet, if you know what I mean.
--Jeff
Bop Cop
>
<>
>How has the music of Muslims affected
>jazz.The list of questions goes on and on.
<>
I'm really hesitant to go on as this is sort of diverging from the jazz and
more into religion. And I really don't know a whole heck of a lot as far as
the jazz connection is concerned. Circumstances have prevented me gathering
anymore infomation from my father in recent years. And my mom, well, she hates
jazz (oh well).
But as far the influence on the music is concerned you can see the spiritual
direction that Coletrane was going and the influence it had on the music of
people like Randy Weston, Pharoh Sanders then and now (not that they were
Muslim, I don't know.) Coletrane's premature death prevents us from saying what
he would have ultimately done, however two of his songs (Naima and Sayeeda) are
Muslim names. A lot of "Love Supreme" sounds like Muslims in prayer - since
the prayers are sung or "chanted". The title song sounds very much like the
"Azan" to me, which is the call to prayer from the minarets.
One thing the acceptance of Islam did do was to steer a lot of jazz musicians
_away_ from jazz and into another life altogether. Some even left the country,
from what I've heard, because of the western lifestyle. I don't know how many
were Hajjis, I know some were. Dr. Yusef Lateef said he stopped doing clubs
because of the lifestyle (alcohol, etc.) and he's now still very active
propagating the faith - along with his teaching and recording.
That's about it!
Idris
Bop Cop
To: imd...@chi.amoco.com
(I received this from Karen Rege, a jazz historian, and will accept this as the
most likely explanation of Daahoud over mine. I also got Bassist George
Morrow's number from someone else, and I let you all know what comes from
that. Idris)
From: sg92...@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu (Karen Rege)
Roosevelt "Daahoud" Wardell
Spirituality and music are often said to go hand in hand, but
rarely are they merged as clearly as in the essence of pianist Roosevelt
Wardell. The descendent of a long line of clergymen dating back to
pre-slavery Egypt, Mr. Wardell is perhaps best known by his family's
spiritual name, Daahoud and as the subject of trumpeter Clifford Brown's
famous composition by the same name.
Mr. Wardell's musical training was informal; he taught himself and
learned from the many family members who sang or played musical
instruments. His inspiration for playing the piano at an early age came
from his partially paralyzed brother. He vividly remembers sitting behind
the old upright piano as his brother played and continuing the music
himself when his brother took a break.
After a few private lessons from a local music teacher and some
training in public school, Mr. Wardell left his hometown of Baltimore to
make his New York debut at Harlem's famed Apollo Theater in 1950 at merely
age 16. After a two-month stint at the Club Lido in New York, he returned
to Baltimore to finish school, stopping here in Wilmington on his way. Mr.
Wardell returned to make Wilmington his permanent home in 1978 after many
years of touring with musicians such as Mantan Moreland, Big Joe Turner,
and Max Roach. More recently, he has worked with Roberta Flack.
Thanks to a fellowship from the state Arts Council, Mr. Wardell has
performed jazz throughout Delaware, including at such venues as the now
defunct Boardroom and the Grand Opera House. He acknowledges Ray Charles,
Eroll Garner, Thelonius Monk, Bud Powell, and Art Tatum as sources of
inspiration and holds in high regard their abilities to exploit a
composition to its fullest through improvisation.
Mr. Wardell has not desired to become part of the mainstream New
York jazz scene, but has made contributions to the art by both encouraging
young players musically and spiritually, and by constant attempts to
develop his own music. "My goal is to keep improving and expanding my
muisc. I want my music to serve as a healing factor for those who hear
it."
cor...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
>
> (I received this from Karen Rege, a jazz historian, and will accept this as the
>
>(edit)
>
> Roosevelt "Daahoud" Wardell
>
> Spirituality and music are often said to go hand in hand, but
> rarely are they merged as clearly as in the essence of pianist Roosevelt
> Wardell. The descendent of a long line of clergymen dating back to
> pre-slavery Egypt, Mr. Wardell is perhaps best known by his family's
> spiritual name, Daahoud and as the subject of trumpeter Clifford Brown's
>
> (edit)
Hmm. I, of course, have no first-hand knowledge of any these matters, but one
thing about this little profile makes me suspicious.
What exactly is "pre-slavery Egypt?" Egypt before the Jews were enslaved
there? Before the pyramids were built, presumably by slave labor? Or is this
a suggestion that Mr. Wardell's ancestors were enslaved in Egypt and brought to
the Americas? I don't think this happened very often: almost all slaves in
America were from west Africa, not the northeast part. Some "Afrocentrists"
argue that American blacks are in some vague way descended from the pharaohs,
but it's highly improbable that any descendant of slaves in America could
reliably trace his ancestry back to Egypt.
I'm sure Mr. Wardell is a fine and spiritual person, but if this claim is
representative of the kinds of things he says about himself, I wouldn't be in
too great a hurry to credit his claim to be "Daahoud." I would at least want
more evidence than his say-so before simply discounting the claims of Talib
Dawud.
Idris, did Ms. Rege provide other support for this claim? Ms. Rege, you seem
very certain that Mr. Wardell's recollections are accurate: do you or he have
any other evidence?
Harvey
Stephen Guattery
>Lastly, the term "Jazz Messengers" was reference to the prophet of Islam who
>was generically referred to as The Messenger. Originally they tried to put
>together a big band called "the 17 Messengers" but I think they faced some
Interesting coincidence; when I read this I recalled that I'd heard of the
17 Messengers somewhere. Then I pulled out my copy of the Blue Note CD "New
Sounds"; it's listed under Art Blakey's and James Moody's names. Thought I'd
listen to the tracks with Chano Pozo, since I'd heard him recently on the new
RCA Gillespie reissue. But glancing through the liner notes alerted me to
the last five tracks, which are by a Blakey-led octet called the Messengers.
From Michael Cuscuna's liner notes:
The album is completed by another octet, which was an offshoot of a
big band. The band was Art Blakey and the 17 Messengers, a group
made up primarily of Moslem musicians who drafted Blakey as the
leader. On December 27, 1947, an abbreviated edition of the ensemble
recorded four titles for Blue Note...
By the way, one of those tunes was "Bop Alley", written by Talib Dawud.
Steve Guattery
s...@cs.cmu.edu
Steve Robinson
correctly. Perhaps we should change the title of this thread to
"Embouchure--what's it mean?" Nah.
Steve
Jan R. Klincewicz
>well lips at least, from pressing to hard for the high notes. Most have
>learned by now that you actually don't have to press or change
Does anyone remember Lin Biviano from the Seventies Buddy
Rich Band ?? He was a high note specialist who I understand used to
TWIST the mouthpiece into his lips to acheive those incredible
upper-register screeches. OUCH !!!!
Benedict Ritchie (PA)
: On 10 Mar 1995, Benedict Ritchie wrote:
: > Sam Hokin (ho...@hokin.physics.wisc.edu) wrote:
: > : Having been in a Brownie mode lately, I wonder how he came to
: > : name the tune "Daahoud".
: > : --
: > : Sam Hokin ho...@juno.physics.wisc.edu
: >
: > --
: > As far as I know, Daahoud was the name of Cliffords drug dealer.
: > Thats what my Jazz History prof. told me anyway, and I guess he
: > knows. Brownie was a fine trumpet player, but no angel...
: > __ ____ ________________________________________________________
: > | \| \ | | E-Mail: Ritc...@phymat.bham.ac.uk |
: > |_/|___|\ | | |
: > | \| | \| | "It's a fairly embarrasing situation to admit that we |
: > |_/|___| | | cannot find 90% of the universe" |
: > -------------|________________________________________________________|
: >
: >
: Sorry, Ben, but I don't think that could possibly be correct. You should
: promptly correct your Jazz History Prof. I know several people who were
: very friendly with Brownie and they all agree on one point: essentially,
: he WAS an angel. That is, in a period when many other musicians were
: into substance abuse on a variety of levels, Clifford didn't even drink
: alcohol or smoke tobacco.
: Also, I refer you to a post by Idris Dawud (I think his current "handle"
: is Bop Cop), himself a trumpeter, who says the song was named after his
: father, who was a trumpeter Clifford hung out with in Philadelphia.
: I wonder if you have confused "Daahoud" with a Charlie Parker piece,
: "Moose the Mooch?" My understanding is "Moose the Mooch" was named after
: a drug dealer in New York. We all know that Bird was no angel, to use
: your terminology.
Thanks for clearing that up, and I guess I got things mixed up along
the road someplace. Sorry to be spouting bollocks, then.
Karen Rege
The biographical information was taken from a 2 hour interview I did with
Mr. Wardell in 1993. I am a trained musicologist and understand that not
every musicians has accurate recollections. However, this fact can be
confirmed by Robert "Boysie" Lowery, Clifford Brown's original teacher.
I'm sorry if this information is not sufficient to satisfy you.
As for the religious background information. I was including information
to portray Daahoud in the manner in which he wished to be portrayed, i.e.
as a spiritual musician. If you wish to quarrel with that, I suggest you
contact Mr. Wardell himself. Personally, I find that in-depth discussions
about religion is not appropriate for this this news group.
Steven A. Chall
Jan R. Klincewicz <Jan.R.Kl...@bell-atl.com> wrote:
>I believe Dizzy and Art Blakey took up the B'hai (sp?) faith, hence their
>adopted names.
What does "Dizzy" mean in Arabic?
-Steve Chall ste...@ncsc.org ste...@mcnc.org
cor...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
>
> The biographical information was taken from a 2 hour interview I did with
> Mr. Wardell in 1993. I am a trained musicologist and understand that not
> every musicians has accurate recollections. However, this fact can be
> confirmed by Robert "Boysie" Lowery, Clifford Brown's original teacher.
> I'm sorry if this information is not sufficient to satisfy you.
>
This doubtless very heartfelt apology is not necessary, but I think I'll keep
an open mind. And I can't help thinking you would, too, if you were as
interested in the truth as you are in displaying your "trained musicologist"
credential. Idris has politely backed away from his claim, for which he has
much better evidence to begin with, and is apparently looking around for still
more solid information. You, on the other hand, are resolutely standing pat
with the recollections of two of Clifford Brown's hometown acquaintances, one
of whom traces his ancestry back to "pre-slavery Egypt" (whatever that means).
Who is being the real scholar? Who's displaying real interest in and love for
the music and the history? You decide, but you can guess my opinion.
> As for the religious background information. I was including information
> to portray Daahoud in the manner in which he wished to be portrayed, i.e.
> as a spiritual musician. If you wish to quarrel with that, I suggest you
> contact Mr. Wardell himself.
Mr. Wardell's spirituality is not the issue, as far as I'm concerned: it's your
credulity I'm wondering about.
> Personally, I find that in-depth discussions
> about religion is not appropriate for this this news group.
If they are relevant to understanding and appreciating jazz, a music that has
at times taken on religious and spiritual roles, why not?
Bop Cop
>> (I received this from Karen Rege, a jazz historian, and will accept this as the
>>
>>(edit)
>>
>> Roosevelt "Daahoud" Wardell
>>
>> Spirituality and music are often said to go hand in hand, but
>> rarely are they merged as clearly as in the essence of pianist Roosevelt
>> Wardell. The descendent of a long line of clergymen dating back to
>> pre-slavery Egypt, Mr. Wardell is perhaps best known by his family's
>> spiritual name, Daahoud and as the subject of trumpeter Clifford Brown's
>>
>> (edit)
>
>Hmm. I, of course, have no first-hand knowledge of any these matters, but one
>thing about this little profile makes me suspicious.
>
>What exactly is "pre-slavery Egypt?" Egypt before the Jews were enslaved
>there? Before the pyramids were built, presumably by slave labor? Or is this
>a suggestion that Mr. Wardell's ancestors were enslaved in Egypt and brought to
>the Americas? I don't think this happened very often: almost all slaves in
>America were from west Africa, not the northeast part. Some "Afrocentrists"
>argue that American blacks are in some vague way descended from the pharaohs,
>but it's highly improbable that any descendant of slaves in America could
>reliably trace his ancestry back to Egypt.
>
>I'm sure Mr. Wardell is a fine and spiritual person, but if this claim is
>representative of the kinds of things he says about himself, I wouldn't be in
>too great a hurry to credit his claim to be "Daahoud." I would at least want
>more evidence than his say-so before simply discounting the claims of Talib
>Dawud.
>
>Idris, did Ms. Rege provide other support for this claim? Ms. Rege, you seem
>very certain that Mr. Wardell's recollections are accurate: do you or he have
>any other evidence?
>
>
>Harvey
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to submit this without her permission. She sent this
to me E-mail, and I thought it was for the benefit for everyone. It is her
personal research and I learned later that I shouldn't have posted this without
her permission. So I would request that we don't debate the merits thereof
unless she somehow indicates that we should do so. I said in an earlier
posting that this was something I learned and always taken for granted, never
having any reason to question it, but I also said I never got this directly
from Talib, or any of the principals on the recording, that's why I assumed the
position of not being sure. I'm sure I'll be able to personally satisfy my
curiousity some time before too long, but until then her story sounds plausible
and reasonable to me. (Again, sorry Karen, and thanks)
Idris
Kenz William
: from what I've heard, because of the western lifestyle. I don't know how many
: were Hajjis, I know some were. Dr. Yusef Lateef said he stopped doing clubs
: because of the lifestyle (alcohol, etc.) and he's now still very active
: propagating the faith - along with his teaching and recording.
====and the past few years, apparently Joseph Jarman has been devoting
lots of time to his Buddhist faith, and music seems to have become of
secondary importance...
Bill
--
William G. Kenz
Library - Documents Dept.
Moorhead State University
Moorhead, MN 56563
ke...@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu
Bop Cop
Well, check this out... can you send me a tape, or better yet, I guess I'd
better start calling around to find this CD. I never heard any of this, or Bop
Alley. Right now my sides are splitting from that title - how appropriate!!
If you got any clues on where to get this CD, let me know please. That might
be the only thing out by those guys. Damn!
Idris
Bop Cop
>17 Messengers somewhere. Then I pulled out my copy of the Blue Note CD "New
>Sounds"; it's listed under Art Blakey's and James Moody's names. Thought I'd
Steve, can you get the catalog # or the bar-code # from your CD to aid in my
search? Tower Records couldn't seem to find it in the catalogs...
Thanks
Idris
Charles H Berg
====and the past few years, apparently Joseph Jarman has been devoting
lots of time to his Buddhist faith, and music seems to have become of
secondary importance...
Bill (Kenz)
In a similar vein, I believe that Larry Harlow has also retreated from
the Salsa scene to continue his work as a Santero. (Corrections
cheerfully accepted).
--
Charlie Berg
c...@world.std.com
Robert Gwynne
Chall) wrote:
>
> What does "Dizzy" mean in Arabic?
>
Bahias are Iranian. So it should be "What does 'Dizzy' mean in Pharsi?"
Bob Gwynne
Mark Ladenson
> Sam Hokin (ho...@hokin.physics.wisc.edu) wrote:
> : Having been in a Brownie mode lately, I wonder how he came to
> : name the tune "Daahoud".
> : --
> : Sam Hokin ho...@juno.physics.wisc.edu
>
> --
> As far as I know, Daahoud was the name of Cliffords drug dealer.
> Thats what my Jazz History prof. told me anyway, and I guess he
> knows. Brownie was a fine trumpet player, but no angel...
> __ ____ ________________________________________________________
> | \| \ | | E-Mail: Ritc...@phymat.bham.ac.uk |
> |_/|___|\ | | |
> | \| | \| | "It's a fairly embarrasing situation to admit that we |
> |_/|___| | | cannot find 90% of the universe" |
> -------------|________________________________________________________|
>
"Moose the Mooche," Bird's dealer, Emery Byrd.
No reason to doubt Idris on the source of "Daahoud."
Mark Ladens
Laurie Sonnenfeld
>Steve, can you get the catalog # or the bar-code # from your CD to aid in my
>search? Tower Records couldn't seem to find it in the catalogs...
>
>Thanks
>Idris
The number on the jewel box spine is CDP 7 84436 2 (the bar code has a
few extra 7s - 7777-84436-2. Title: ART BLAKEY & JAMES MOODY: NEW
SOUNDS. Songs by Gil Fuller, Moody, Dave Burns, Cecil Payne, Chano
Pozo, Kinny Dorham, T. Dawud & M. Kaleem. It's a wonderful album.
Jim Andrews
--
lau...@teleport.COM Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-1016 (2400-14400, N81)
Bop Cop
>> Thats what my Jazz History prof. told me anyway, and I guess he
>> knows. Brownie was a fine trumpet player, but no angel...
>> __ ____ ________________________________________________________
>> | \| \ | | E-Mail: Ritc...@phymat.bham.ac.uk |
>> |_/|___|\ | | |
>> | \| | \| | "It's a fairly embarrasing situation to admit that we |
>> |_/|___| | | cannot find 90% of the universe" |
>> -------------|________________________________________________________|
>>
> Either you or your "Jazz History prof" probably had a memory lapse.
>"Moose the Mooche," Bird's dealer, Emery Byrd.
> No reason to doubt Idris on the source of "Daahoud."
>Mark Ladens
Hey Mark, how you doin? I see you've been busy! Haven't been on the net in a
while? I know, you've been so engrossed in that Montreux Summit, right? The
whole thing for the Daahoud source has changed... Seems there was another
Daahoud, piano player from Wilmington. Anyway how was the Montreux Summit? I
thought maybe you were disappointed since I didn't hear from you. So was Woody
Shaw the stuff or what? And Dex? Let me know what you think!
Idris
TornCot
He was a film actor and popular stand up comic in african-american venues.
Unfortunately he is most famous for his role as valet Birmingham Brown in
the Charlie Chan series. Although Moreland was able to reveal consistent
comic ability in the series he had to do many demeaning things like bug
his eyes out and run from ghosts. He was nowhere near offensive as Stepin
Fetchit (again a performer with real comic ability) and got the last laugh
in his final role, a gag appearance as a counterman in "Watermelon Man."
Dave Krugman
Charles D. Gerard
involved in, so this post caught my eye. The group that Lateef was involved
with was an Islam sect now based in Pakistan called the Ahmadiyya Movement
in Islam. Before the fifties, most if not all of the Moslem jazz musicians
were Ahmadiyyans.Talib Ahmad Dawoud played a major role in introducing
musicians to Islam. He was lead trumpeter in the 17-piece Messengers. His
wife was Dakota Staton (Aliyah Rabia). Others in the AMI were Ahmad Jamal,
Mohammed sadiq (a trombonist who was once Charlie Parker's roommate), Sahib
Shihab and Blakey. Coltrane's first wife was also in the group. Later,
Dahoud started a spin-ff group, the Muslim Brotherhood. One of the better
known members of the Muslim Brotherhood was McCoy Tyner (Sulieman Saud). I
don't know of many jazz musicians in the Black Muslims. Larry Young (Khalid
Yasin) was one member.
Other religious groups and the jazz musicians involved in them:
Baha'i - Dizzy Gillespie
Scientology - Chick Corea
Yoga ( with guru Sri Chimnoy) - John McLaughlin, Carlos Santana
Buddhism (Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism sect) Herbie Hancock
Charles D. Gerard
Alan Saul
(Charles D. Gerard) wrote:
> Recently I've been writing about the religions jazz musicians have been
> involved in, so this post caught my eye. The group that Lateef was involved
> with was an Islam sect now based in Pakistan called the Ahmadiyya Movement
> in Islam. Before the fifties, most if not all of the Moslem jazz musicians
> were Ahmadiyyans.Talib Ahmad Dawoud played a major role in introducing
> musicians to Islam. He was lead trumpeter in the 17-piece Messengers. His
> wife was Dakota Staton (Aliyah Rabia).
An article in the March 20 Pittsburgh Post-Gazette caught my eye because
of these recent mentions of Dakota Staton, now famous as Idris Dawud's
stepmother. The newspaper mentioned the upcoming (this Friday) induction
of 10 new members into the Westinghouse High School's Hall of Fame. The
illustrious new inductees feature Mary Lou Williams, one of the many
religious musicians we all know of, as well as Aliyah Rabia herself! So
congratulations to Ms. Staton for this honor, and I'll keep my eyes open
for an appearance while she's in town.
I don't know her, but perhaps some people know Bev Smith, another
inductee. She is described as "a talk show host on BET TV who graduated in
the early 1960s." She'll be giving a talk to the student body, who I guess
are more likely to know her than Dakota Staton.
By the way, seeing Staton's name, does anybody know who Rabih was, from
Bahr el Ghazal or Dar Fur I believe?
--
Alan Saul
sa...@pitt.edu
Bop Cop
Hi Charles. Just a minor correction, but it's important to me to make this
distinction. The Ahmadiyya Mvmt. is an organization or "movement" of Muslims
trying to eradicate the undesireable sectarianism in Islam, so they are
actually not a sect, though others may referred to them as one. And they are
officially based in London now, for about the past 10 years. Lateef, Jamal,
Sadiq, and Talib are all still members. The spin-off group (Brotherhood) was
ill-advised as it turns out, but it's intent was to address the issue of the
"Black Muslims", which the AMI was not willing to take on. Thanks for McCoy's
name, along with the other information. I always wondered what it was. I'm
getting a CD with the 17 Msngrs on it mailed to me from a store in PA. This
will be my first time hearing anything from that group. I actually thought the
group never really recorded. Well take it easy.
Idris Dawud
Steve Robinson
pretty friendly with Brownie back in the '50s. I asked him what he
thought the origin of the title "Daahoud" was. He responded that Dawud
is the Arabic version of David, that Clifford met someone with that
name in the Middle East while on tour there with Lionel Hampton, and he
named the tune after this person. So, here is a somewhat authenticated
(in that the guy who told me knew Brownie) 3rd possibility.
Steve Robinson
Seattle, WA
stev...@u.washington.edu
Bob Morin
Berg) wrote:
> >Again, the
> >answer may be different in different particular cases, but I wonder if there
> >was a general trend--and I especially wonder about Art Blakey, who of course
> >adopted the name Abdullah Ibn Buhaina (again, sp?), but who wouldn't seem to
> >have been likely to believe that white people had been created on an island
> >by an evil scientist (which is what they preached, and still preach, in "the
> >Nation").
>
> Bu was Islamic, NOT Black Muslim (NOI). I can personally vouch that
> he did not believe that white people were the devil. I have known few
> kinder, pleasanter people. I miss him.
>
> --
When the Jazz Messengers recorded Three Blind Mice at the Renaissance club
in LA, I drove about 75 miles on a school night to hear the band. When the
club closed, I hung around a bit and Art struck up a conversation with me.
When he found out I had to drive back that late, he offered to put me up
in his hotel room.
I miss him too. He was a real jewel of a man.
--
Bob Morin
Music Department
MiraCosta College
bmo...@mismac.miracosta.cc.ca.us
bmo...@kirk.miracosta.cc.ca.us
Bop Cop
I got the CD "New Sounds" in the mail yesterday (Art Blakey's Messengers and
James Moody's Modernists). Thanks Steve (I deleted that mail message, can you
send me "Paul's CD" number again?)
Lot of first's here for me. First time I heard "Workshop" the instrumental,
whereas the vocal is one of my Eddie Jefferson favorites. And I didn't know
Moody was that prominant back in those days. First time I heard Howard Bowe
play (isn't this Muhammad Saddiq, Bird's ex roomate? Somebody help me out
here.) and first time I heard Bop Alley, or anything by Talib for that matter.
It's cute, for that day and time. Maybe I'll rewrite it some day. ;^)
If anyone else ever comes across anymore info on these 17 Messengers, let me
know!
Idris
girlswi...@gmail.com
I was wondering if you know if there was ever any lyrics to Daahoud or what it was about?
Best,
Cecilia
yardb...@verizon.net
> Sam Hokin (ho...@hokin.physics.wisc.edu) wrote:
> : Having been in a Brownie mode lately, I wonder how he came to
> : name the tune "Daahoud".
> : --
> : Sam Hokin ho...@juno.physics.wisc.edu
>
> --
> Thats what my Jazz History prof. told me anyway, and I guess he
> knows. Brownie was a fine trumpet player, but no angel...
> __ ____ ________________________________________________________
> | \| \ | | E-Mail: Ritc...@phymat.bham.ac.uk |
> |_/|___|\ | | |
> | \| | \| | "It's a fairly embarrasing situation to admit that we |
> |_/|___| | | cannot find 90% of the universe" |
> -------------|________________________________________________________|
Tony Mountifield
Back in the days when there was real conversation in this newsgroup...
Cheers
Tony
--
Tony Mountifield
Work: to...@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: to...@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org
