Im sick of Wynton Marsalis...
BlueMonk
all these grandiose statements about how jazz is not about soloing.
All his SERIOUSNESS and total lack of sense of humor. I just
find him intimidating and rude these days. I used to really love the
guy. Was it true that his brother wouldnt speak to him for years?
Blue Monk
TS Monk the 2nd
Jan Szurmant
round, because Wynton culdn't accept, that his brother were playing with
Sting and Miles. Wynton said and still believes, that the music of these two
great musicians weren't worthsome. Have you ever read what he says about
Miles music in the eighties?
Wynton is such a good trumpet player with a good sound and a perfect
technique, but he is so limited in what he says and what he plays. I mean,
how old is he? At his age Miles did such masterworks like Kind of Blue,
Sketches of Spain, Birth of the Cool, L'Asconseur pour l'echafaud and many
more. Wynton hasn't recorded anything which could impress if you compare his
work with Miles'. He is just a good trumpet player, but a second rate
musician. Have you heard Branfords new album? That's better jazz. For me
jazz is much more than swing, hardbop and New Orleans-Style. I like free
jazz and fusion, but Wynton says, that is no jazz, because his ears are to
limited.
Am I right?
Jan Szurmant
BlueMonk schrieb in Nachricht
<824FE8D800C6A321.28C3D4B8...@lp.airnews.net>...
PETER GILLESPIE
you took the words right out of my mouth! i happened to catch part of
another
of those horrible BRAVO specials on jazz--this one on louis armstrong--when
suddenly, there's professor wynton, pontificating on the greatness of
"pops," acting almost like an "eye witness" to armstrong's early magic
back in the 20's. and, as usual, telling us all How To Feel and What To
Think about it everything.
i'm long since fed up with this smug, over-hyped schoolteacher. he's just
billy taylor with a trumpet instead of a piano---but with even less
personality. wynton, please stop lecturing and start developing an
instrumental style!
you're not the fresh-faced young prodigy any longer.
question: is marsalis as over-rated as a classical trumpeter as he is as a
jazz improvisor?
comments, please.
peteG
----------------------------------
BlueMonk <ba...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:824FE8D800C6A321.28C3D4B8...@lp.airnews.net...
sab...@mindspring.com
>Blue Monk,
>you took the words right out of my mouth! i happened to catch part of
>another
>of those horrible BRAVO specials on jazz--this one on louis armstrong--when
>suddenly, there's professor wynton, pontificating on the greatness of
>"pops," acting almost like an "eye witness" to armstrong's early magic
>back in the 20's. and, as usual, telling us all How To Feel and What To
>Think about it everything.
>i'm long since fed up with this smug, over-hyped schoolteacher. he's just
>billy taylor with a trumpet instead of a piano---but with even less
>personality. wynton, please stop lecturing and start developing an
>instrumental style!
>you're not the fresh-faced young prodigy any longer.
>
>question: is marsalis as over-rated as a classical trumpeter as he is as a
>jazz improvisor?
>comments, please.
>
>peteG
>
====================
You know, in a sense I sometimes feel as if Wynton is the Dizzy
Gillespie of our time.
In the early bebop years, lots of people didn't HEAR Diz at all,
they only saw his act, the shades, the goatee, the OOP BOP SHBAM, the
jive talk, and crossed him off as some kind of faker or jazz novelty
act like Cab Calloway...from whom, although I believe Diz DID cut him
in the buttocks during a little tiff, Diz copped a great deal of his
shtick. (Kinda like Muhammad Ali did from Gorgeous George...from the
ridicluous, to the sublime.)
Earlier in this series of posts (another thread, same general
subject) I said that in a blind listening, behind a screen, Wynton
would be chosen in the top 10 or so of any couple of hundred
mainstream jazz OR orchestral trumpet players by almost any
cross-section of people really involved in those idioms...listeners,
musicians, critics, you name it. He plays that well at his peak form.
The reason...they wouldn't see his Leonard Bernstein Jr. act,
wouldn't have any preconception, they'd, just hear his music.
Don't be put off by his front...you'll miss what's behind it, which
is as real as it gets.
S.
P.S. Heard a good Bernstein story which pertains directly to this
problem. A friend was once called to sub in the Philharmonic on
saxophone while Bernstein was still the music director.
Now you have to understand that most really good musicians are
aware that many (most?) orcherstral conductors are poseurs...all
flying hair and grand gestures, not much in the way of real conducting
information. It's part of the gig. The band plays, the conductor puts
on the show.
This guy did a couple of rehearsals w/Bernstien and was knocked
OUT...clear concise beat, great ears and understanding of the music.
He thought "Well, HERE'S a guy who can stand up to his reputation, and
all this time I thought he was jive !!"
Comes the concert ??? Not a downbeat in a bushel...all theatrics,
playing to the bluehairs in the box seats...but Bernstein was the one
w/all the gigs...
Get it yet ???
Vincent Vega
"PETER GILLESPIE" <rat...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> question: is marsalis as over-rated as a classical trumpeter as he is as a
> jazz improvisor?
Oh, dear God, yes! That was all marketing hype on Columbia's (nee Sony)
part. The *name* meant an instant seller. Yes, the dear child could get
through the concertos but it wasn't the same as hearing a master like
Maurice Andre, for instance.
Michel Forest
BlueMonk wrote:
> Is it just me, or has Wynton gotten to everyone lately? I mean
> all these grandiose statements about how jazz is not about soloing.
> All his SERIOUSNESS and total lack of sense of humor. I just
> find him intimidating and rude these days.
I don't know, seems to me like he's always been like that. In fact, when
he first arrived on the jazz scene, he seemed even worse because he
looked like some arrogant young musician badmouthing everybody without
having paid his dues.
I have mixed feeling about Wynton, musically and personnally. I've always
loved his trumpet sound, a truly beautiful sound IMO, and I own some of
his albums like "Live at Blues Alley", "J Mood", "Thick in the South". I
even bought his Village Vanguard boxset and found a lot of good music on
it. What I don't like is when he starts to see himself as the new
Ellington and he writes those long suites like "Blue Interlude" or "Blood
on the Fields".
As a person, I think he has a different outlook on jazz than most people
on this ng. He sees it as a tradition and he wants to work withing that
tradition. As a result, he often comes across as a reactionary s.o.b.
because he justifies his dislike for the avant-garde on ideological
reasons. If he just said that he doesn't like free jazz, it would not
bother anybody, really, plenty of jazz musicians don't like free and
don't attract the kind of hatred Wynton receives. I'm tempted to blame it
on his mentors, Stanley Crouch and Albert Murray, because he met when he
was young and their right-wing ideas about jazz influenced his thinking.
Reading Crouch's liner notes has to be one of the most unpleasant reading
experiences one can have... had he met other people, who knows what he
would have done? But at the same time, he has turned on a lot of people
to jazz music and maybe some of these people will try other, more
innovative, styles of jazz in the future.
Greg Abrams
Greg
D Royko
Lincoln
can motivate my fingers to do it all again. The bottom line is that
Wynton is all the things you said, and takes himself way too
seriuosly. So it's ironic that Branford is just the opposite, and HE
is the one who is the real deal. Wynton was the one who got all the
press and attention early on, but Branford is the one who has proven
himself to be the man.
Branford's albums have consistantly gotten better and better, and
Wynton is just rehashing the same old pyrotechnics that he always has.
Branford has a great sense of humor, has a great outook, and likes
lots of different kinds of music. Wynton doesn't seem to have much of
a sense of humor, and seems to hate everything but himself, and a few
select players that he will compliment as long as he doesn't feel like
they are a threat.
I would buy any album that Branford records, and the last Wynton CD I
liked enough to acually go out an buy was Standard Time Vol. 1.
Just my .02.
Lincoln
>
>
Marcel-Franck Simon
: You know, in a sense I sometimes feel as if Wynton is the Dizzy
: Gillespie of our time.
: In the early bebop years, lots of people didn't HEAR Diz at all,
: they only saw his act, the shades, the goatee, the OOP BOP SHBAM, the
: jive talk, and crossed him off as some kind of faker or jazz novelty
: act like Cab Calloway...
I've never heard of this, especially if you focus on the "early bebop
years", which I'll semi-arbitrarily take to mean "1949 or before."
Can you cite some references that "lots of people" saw Dizzy as a
"faker or jazz novelty"?
--
Marcel-Franck Simon Hewlett Packard
"Papa Loko, ou se' van, wa pouse'-n ale' Florham Park, NJ
Nou se' papiyon, n'a pote' nouvel bay Agwe'" min...@fpk.hp.com
Howard Peirce
> question: is marsalis as over-rated as a classical trumpeter as he is as a
> jazz improvisor?
> comments, please.
If you hang out on rec.music.makers.trumpet, it's remarkable how similar the
comments about his legit work are versus his jazz work. Generally, the more
classical soloists one is familiar with (the bigger the pool you're drawing
comparisons from--I only vaguely remember Maurice Andre and Timofei
Dokschitzer from my misspent classical youth), the less impressed one is. The
comments about his classical playing are almost identical to the comments
about his jazz playing: the praise tends to focus on technique and sound, the
criticisms on the lack of originality, fire, emotion in his interpretations.
Just like his jazz playing, the biggest slams on his legit work tend to be
that it's "safe."
The one thing discussions of his classical playing don't lead to is anything
about safeguarding the past or future of classical music.
HP
Ronny Johannessen
D Royko <dro...@aol.com> skrev i
meldingsnyheter:20000302131929...@nso-fh.aol.com...
> ...and the Wynton Wars begin again...
Could we take a bet on how many statements will come this time ? 200 ? 300 ?
Ronny
BlueMonk
>
>As a person, I think he has a different outlook on jazz than most people
>on this ng. He sees it as a tradition and he wants to work withing that
>tradition. As a result, he often comes across as a reactionary s.o.b.
>because he justifies his dislike for the avant-garde on ideological
>reasons. If he just said that he doesn't like free jazz, it would not
>bother anybody, really, plenty of jazz musicians don't like free and
>don't attract the kind of hatred Wynton receives. I'm tempted to blame it
>on his mentors, Stanley Crouch and Albert Murray, because he met when he
>was young and their right-wing ideas about jazz influenced his thinking.
>Reading Crouch's liner notes has to be one of the most unpleasant reading
>experiences one can have... had he met other people, who knows what he
>would have done? But at the same time, he has turned on a lot of people
>to jazz music and maybe some of these people will try other, more
>innovative, styles of jazz in the future.
>
Yeah, you've hit on part of it. His rigidity and traditionalism is
way overblown and his mind is completely shut off to new things. But
even worse then that, he just seems to take all the fun out of the
music. Its not that I think he is a bad trumpet player. I actually
like his stuff, classical and jazz. I just dont like his king of the
hill shitty attitude that he has. Like he is up there passing
judgement on everything about jazz and telling us what is good, and he
does it all without even a smile on his face!
I am a traditionalist in many ways, but I try not to be so serious
about it all!
BlueMonk
Jack Woker
And how soon we can expect to hear from a certain Wynton worshipper who
shall remain nameless?
jack
JAdanZZY
sab...@mindspring.com
>sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
>: You know, in a sense I sometimes feel as if Wynton is the Dizzy
>: Gillespie of our time.
>
>: In the early bebop years, lots of people didn't HEAR Diz at all,
>: they only saw his act, the shades, the goatee, the OOP BOP SHBAM, the
>: jive talk, and crossed him off as some kind of faker or jazz novelty
>: act like Cab Calloway...
>
>I've never heard of this, especially if you focus on the "early bebop
>years", which I'll semi-arbitrarily take to mean "1949 or before."
>
>Can you cite some references that "lots of people" saw Dizzy as a
>"faker or jazz novelty"?
=========================================
No, I can't.
I CAN state that there was a very strong anti-bebop movement ...Ira
Gitler named them the "moldy figs"...amongst some
critics/listeners/musicians.
I can ALSO state that this is the view that a number of musicians
took of that "moldy fig" controversy who were there at the time...that
it wasn't so much about the style of the music as it was about the
personal style of the PLAYERS themselves...Dizzy foremost among them.
(Monk, Bird...they were "different" somehow. PERSONALLY "different".)
I HAVE talked about those times w/Charles Mingus, Jimmy Knepper,
Lee Konitz, Carmine Caruso, Joe Wilder and Britt Woodman among
others, and my personal impression of those many, informal talks is
that although the music itself was "different", it wasn't all THAT
"different"...I mean, common wisdom says that bebop advanced the
harmonic sophistication of jazz, but how much further advanced can you
GET than Duke Ellington, Ben Webster and Coleman Hawkins, really ?
What was DIFFERENT (of course it was different musically than what
came before, but not so different that Hawk and Duke and Roy Eldridge
couldn't deal w/it)...what was DIFFERENT was that it LOOKED so
strange...scared the straight mainstream (read white, generally)
audience half to death.
AND THEN THE KIDS STARTED TO PICK UP ON IT !!!
" Call out the National Guard, Thelma, THESE negroes ain't ACTIN'
right !!!"
Just like rock and rap years later, socially...the opposition among
the mainsteam press, although often couched in musical terms, was at
LEAST as much about STYLE, about independence.
Bebop was the first cry of the civil rights movement 15-20 years
later, and the same societal forces that opposed IT opposed civil
rights.
You think Faubus or George Wallace (or Roy Cohn or Nixon or
McCarthy, or their representatives in the press for that matter) gave
a good goddamn about flatted fifths and OOL -YA-KOO ?
Hell no.
They just didn't want to hear no KLUGLE-MOP in their neighborhoods.
S.
Michel Forest
BlueMonk wrote:
I agree 100%. There's a good quote about W. Marsalis in the new Penguin jazz
guide: "We remain unmoved, if grudgingly impressed". That's almost my attitude
toward him. One a personal note, I saw him live once, at the Montreal
festival, 5-6 years ago. He was supposed to bring his Septet and perform "In
this house, on this morning". Instead, for some unknown reason, he brought a
sextet (no trombone player) and he didn't perform his album. Instead, we were
treated to a low-key gig, a mixed bag of standards and originals. It was
simple, unpretentious and highly enjoyable. Wynton talked a lot between the
tunes and he was the contrary of his arrogant, super-serious attitude he
usually displays in interviews. It kind of reconcilied me with the man and his
music, even if he gets way too much exposure for his real worth as a
musician..
Fabio Rojas
>>question: is marsalis as over-rated as a classical trumpeter as he is as a
>>jazz improvisor?
>>comments, please.
>>
>
> Earlier in this series of posts (another thread, same general
>subject) I said that in a blind listening, behind a screen, Wynton
>would be chosen in the top 10 or so of any couple of hundred
>mainstream jazz OR orchestral trumpet players by almost any
>cross-section of people really involved in those idioms...listeners,
>musicians, critics, you name it. He plays that well at his peak form.
>
>
I can see what you are saying, that we often confuse the act with the
music, but I think a crucial difference between Diz and Wynton is that
Diz, by Wynton's age, had really pioneered two deep, long lasting
innovations in the music - he developed bebop and Afro-Cuabn
jazz. As an amateur trumpet player, I feel safe to say that Wynton
is an amazingly good trumpet player - but I don't think he has
done anything on the level of what other jazz composers or
trumpet masters have done. That doesn't mean he doesn't deserve
praise - the guys is amazing; he has a truly unique tone which
I can recognize instantly (I once impressed somebody by randomly
turing on the radio and identifying a Wynton solo after only
two or three notes). His solos are well constrcuted and flawless
in the technical sense. I also enjoy his compositions quite a bit
as well.
But let's compare Wynton on two levels: what has he done as a trumpet
player and what has he done as a composer??
As a trumpet player, he's definitely first rate but I ask, are his
solos harmincally interestesing as Clifford Brown's solos or as dramatic
as Miles on the moody "Dear Old Stockholm" from "Miles Davis, volume 1"?
As a composer, has he written anything as joyful as "Joy Spring"
or as hip as "Night in Tunisia"?
If we compare him to more recent people: who here on this
newsgroup would take any Wynton recording over -
The Workin'/Cookin'/Relaxin'/Smokin's Miles Recordings
Woody Shaw Recordings like "Unity", "The Moontrane"
Dave Douglass' Tiny Bell Trio
Any of the Freddie Hubbard 60's blue notes
How many young trumpet players transcribe Wynton solos? Some, but
not many. How many times do other artists record Wynton's
works? Occassionally, but not that often.
Wynton is a great trumpet player, I own a number of his albums,
but when he produces something on the order of "Joy Spring",
"Kind of Blue", "Far East Suite", "Potato Head Blues" or
"Night in Tunisia" - then I'll think he has the authority
to say what is "really jazz." When he actually changes the
idiom himself, then maybe he'll have the right. Until then,
I'll keep buying Wynton's stuff but I'll still think he's
a silly guy.
Ok, I'm done ranting.
-fabio
sab...@mindspring.com
>In article <38be98a5...@news.mindspring.com>,
>>>question: is marsalis as over-rated as a classical trumpeter as he is as a
>>>jazz improvisor?
>>>comments, please.
>>>
>>>peteG
>>
>> Earlier in this series of posts (another thread, same general
>>subject) I said that in a blind listening, behind a screen, Wynton
>>would be chosen in the top 10 or so of any couple of hundred
>>mainstream jazz OR orchestral trumpet players by almost any
>>cross-section of people really involved in those idioms...listeners,
>>musicians, critics, you name it. He plays that well at his peak form.
>>
>>
>> Get it yet ???
>
>I can see what you are saying, that we often confuse the act with the
>music, but I think a crucial difference between Diz and Wynton is that
>Diz, by Wynton's age, had really pioneered two deep, long lasting
>innovations in the music - he developed bebop and Afro-Cuabn
>jazz.
=====================
I don't mena to suggest that Wynton is a trailblazer on the level
of Dizzy...that's not my point here.
My point IS that he seems to be automatically dissed by large
portions of the jazz audience, and a large part of the reason for it
is his act, not his music.
======================
============================
Again, my point is not whether his talent is less or more than anyone
else's; I'm just trying to figure out why so many people seem to
reflexively hate his guts.
As far as comparing him to Diz (or anyone else, for that
matter)...we are all of us products of our time, and have no say into
WHICH time we're born.
It's entirely possible that THIS particular time is one of
retrenchment across the board...in the arts, in politics,
everywhere,and he is caught up in it as are we all.
In the long run he may be as important a figure in the development
of this idiom we laughingly refer to as "jazz" as ANYONE was, I don't
know. Perhaps the recognition of a common thread that runs through a
great deal of the music and the huge efforts he's made to put together
a working orchestra that reflects that thread IS as important as the
development of bebop and Afro/Cuban music. Again, I don't really know.
If in 100 years there are in place fine "jazz" orchestras in major
cities across the world in a position roughly analogous to the
symphony orchestra system as it stands now, and if generations of
performers and composers utilize that system to make great music...and
I think that is a VERY likely scenario...then it will be largely
because of Wynton's efforts.
Again, I don't know how many people understand the energy needed to
deal w/the establishment on the level at which he has done so. Maybe
if he had just said "Screw this shit" and gone on about his business
as a player and composer the work that he produced would have been
"better". It CERTAINLY would have been DIFFERENT.
But that 's not what he did.
We all make our choices...often on a completely automatic,
biochemically hardwired level.
Keeping that in mind...why attack him for not being Bird or Diz or
Duke or 'Trane?
Later...
S.
tst...@businessobjects.com
<824FE8D800C6A321.28C3D4B8...@lp.airnews.net>,
I think he has gotten to everyone lately - even those who think
(grudgingly or enthusiastically) that his music, or much of it, is good.
I think his aggressive attitude about concentrating on the
fundamentals, celebrating blues'n'swing, etc., was much more meaningful
in the early 80's. During the 70's the avant-garde had thrived,
musically speaking, and fusion had thrived, commercially speaking, but
bop-derived, hard-swinging, changes-oriented jazz was not so healthy,
at least among the younger generations.
I read a recent interview with Pat Metheny in which he said that when
he arrived in New York in the 70's, everybody was terribly impressed
that he knew the changes to "Giant Steps" and standards and could play
them. Now, he noted, you could go to any city in America and find five
guys who could do the same.
So when Wynton started his crusades, he was defending something that
arguably needed defending, and his rhetorical excess could be
considered to have been a tactical matter. But now, damn, that war has
been won. Blues, swing, chord changes, Ellington, Armstrong, the Holy
Tradition - all that is now in NO danger of dying out anytime soon. But
Wynton has never turned the volume down on his megaphone.
What he rails against is basically this: being open to
disparate "outside" influences and still calling the music "jazz." I
think he believed that this would lead to the disappearance of
traditional aspects of jazz he felt should not be allowed to disappear.
Even if he was right fifteen to twenty years ago, which is open to
debate, surely this supposed menace no longer looms. Wynton sounds more
and more like a rabid anti-Communist long after the Cold War has ended:
irrelevant.
> Was it true that his brother wouldnt speak to him for years?
No, it's not true. Both Wynton and Branford have consistently denied it.
- Tom Storer
"When you're swinging, swing some more." - Thelonious Monk
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Marcel-Franck Simon
in advance for this posting ]
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
: min...@fpk.hp.com (Marcel-Franck Simon) wrote:
: =========================================
: No, I can't.
: Hell no.
Whoa, there's a lot here. Let me try to follow the reasoning (numbered
statements are by Sabutin, others my interpretation of same):
1) Wynton M is the Dizzy G of our time
2) Because in the early bebop days, people focused so much on Dizzy's
appearance and stage antics that they did not listen to his trumpet
at all
-> Which seems to imply that in our time people are so focused on Wynton's
non-musical activities that they don't listen to his music at all
3) Sabutin is unable to provide references supprorting (2)
-> Which would tend to invalidate (2), and hence the -> conclusion above
4) But Sabutin does know about the moldy fig bop reactionaries
5) Who were reacting because of the beboppers' style, not their music
-> Ah, Sabutin thinks the moldy figs were the ones not hearing Dizzy
6) From talking to <various musicians> Sabutin believes they didn't see
bebop as that much more advanced than Ellington, Webster, Hawkins, etc
-> It's not clear how this relates to the moldy figs. If <various musicians>
could clearly see that bebop was not that big a musical deal, why would
other (moldy fig) musicians get so uptight about it? The link to Wynton
is even less clear
7) The real difference is that it [bebop, presumably] looked strange
-> Music looking strange is itself a strange notion, so let's assume
Sabutin means bebop musicians
8) This strangeness scared white mainstream audiences
9) Especially when kids started to pick up on it
-> What kids are these? The historical record tells us that bebop was never
as mainstream as swing, which it replaced. Post-war kids instead went
for R'n'B and eventually rock'n'roll. Of course, this happened in the
50s, i.e. not during the early bebop days, so it's not clear what this
has to do with people not hearing Dizzy's trumpet because of their focus
on his appearance. The link to Wynton is completely lost by now
10)Bebop was the first cry of the civil rights movement
-> This is a huge stretch, that Sabutin really needs to back up before
he can be credible making it. While he's gathering his sources, he
should ponder the fact that the most visible faces of the civil rights
movements were in SCLC (i.e. Southern Baptists who thought jazz and blues
were the devil's music), SNCC (i.e. college-age people into folk music
[and Gandhi non-violence]), CORE (whose leader James Farmer did not
particularly like any music) and the Nation of Islam (whose most visible
leader Malcolm X deeply loved that non-bopper Billie Holiday)
Reference: Taylor Branch's PARTING THE WATERS and PILLAR OF FIRE, the
first two volumes of his AMERICA IN THE KING YEARS history of the Civil
Rights movement
11)<Various civil rights reactionaries> did not care about bebop, they
just didn't want KLUGLE-MOP (which I guess means black people) in
their neighborhoods
-> It's not clear how this relates to bebop as the first cry of the civil
rights movement, or to Dizzy's appearance, or to moldy figs not hearing
his trumpet because of same, or to Wynton.
My point is, I get lost trying to follow Sabutin's reasoning, and can't
get from there (Wynton and early bebop and Dizzy) to here (Orval Faubus
and Richard Nixon and KLUGLE-MOP.) Can someone help me?
Thanks in advance.
Howard Peirce
> I think his aggressive attitude about concentrating on the
> fundamentals, celebrating blues'n'swing, etc., was much more meaningful
> in the early 80's. During the 70's the avant-garde had thrived,
> musically speaking, and fusion had thrived, commercially speaking, but
> bop-derived, hard-swinging, changes-oriented jazz was not so healthy,
> at least among the younger generations.
You know, that's the accepted story. I'm not sure it's true. I started
listening to jazz in the 70s, and most of what of what I listened to was
non-fusion, and much of it was new and by younger musicians. What about
Woody Shaw, for example? Here was a guy who was developing what could only
be called cutting-edge 70s mainstream jazz. There's a kind of musical
esthetic that came out of Shaw, Tyner, and a handful of others in the 70s
that explored rhythms and tonal relationships that has been all but
abandoned.
That's the thing--when WM embraced 60s jazz, when he went on that Miles
kick in the early 80s, he totally dissed the exciting new mainstream jazz
that *was* happening at the time. Now, when you hear someone do a tune like
The Moontrane or Little Red's Fantasy, it almost sounds quaintly
anachronistic. When the neo-cons came on the scene, that whole post-modal,
post-Dolphy, "pentatonics and fourths superimposed over tonal or
quasi-tonal progressions" thing just died on the vine.
There was exciting and timely new mainstream jazz from younger musicians
being played in the 70s. It formed the bulk of my record collection as a
teenager. There were harmonic and rhythmic developments in that music that
just aren't heard anymore.
HP
sab...@mindspring.com
======================
No. \It is followed by a clear reference to his being judged by his
act rather than his music. He is the Dizzy Gillespie of out time in
that sense...a trumpet player/leader whose music is regularly dissed
at least partially because of how he acts.
The statement "Wynton Marsalis is the Dizzy Billespie of our time"
unsupported by other references is clearly not true. a
conservator...Dizzy was a pioneer, a radical.
===========================
>2) Because in the early bebop days, people focused so much on Dizzy's
> appearance and stage antics that they did not listen to his trumpet
> at all
>-> Which seems to imply that in our time people are so focused on Wynton's
> non-musical activities that they don't listen to his music at all
>3) Sabutin is unable to provide references supprorting (2)
===================
No...only unwilling to spend hours trying to find the old news
articles and negative Downbeat reviews.
Anyone have such handy?
My "references" are the people who were there...and I mentioned a
number of them.
=======================
>-> Which would tend to invalidate (2), and hence the -> conclusion above
>4) But Sabutin does know about the moldy fig bop reactionaries
>5) Who were reacting because of the beboppers' style, not their music
>-> Ah, Sabutin thinks the moldy figs were the ones not hearing Dizzy
>6) From talking to <various musicians> Sabutin believes they didn't see
> bebop as that much more advanced than Ellington, Webster, Hawkins, etc
>-> It's not clear how this relates to the moldy figs. If <various musicians>
> could clearly see that bebop was not that big a musical deal, why would
> other (moldy fig) musicians get so uptight about it?
=================================
Because the outward STYLE of the musicians was so radically
different. That's what this post is ABOUT.
Certainly the older and/or less imaginative musicians were
threatened and offended by the music, but not the beboppers' immediate
forbears...and I mention Hawk + Roy Eldridge pareticularly. Duke too.
Take Louis Armstrong for instance. He was opposed to the bebop
thing for quite a while, and I 've always wondered why. He certainly
had the talent to hear and understand it.
Why then ?
My take on it...and the always impeccably dressed and right down
the middle gentleman Joe Wilder and I discussed this at length on a
couple of long car trips...was that the bebop ATTITUDE affronted him.
He came up in a different world, and made the best of it that he
could. Suddenly, here were all these black people FLAUNTING their
difference, saying "LOOK HERE, I'll act any damned way I please!!! "
Freaked him out for years.
===========================
================
The link to Wynton
> is even less clear
>7) The real difference is that it [bebop, presumably] looked strange
>-> Music looking strange is itself a strange notion, so let's assume
> Sabutin means bebop musicians
====================
Y'know, I keep trying to take you seriously, but when you start
this nitpicking, it occurs to me that you don't have a brain in your
head.
OF COURSE I MEANT THE MUSICIANS.
==============================
>8) This strangeness scared white mainstream audiences
>9) Especially when kids started to pick up on it
>-> What kids are these? The historical record tells us that bebop was never
> as mainstream as swing, which it replaced. Post-war kids instead went
> for R'n'B and eventually rock'n'roll. Of course, this happened in the
> 50s, i.e. not during the early bebop days, so it's not clear what this
> has to do with people not hearing Dizzy's trumpet because of their focus
> on his appearance. The link to Wynton is completely lost by now
==============================
No,there was a short stretch bertween W.W.II and the real
beginnings of the r +b/rock/pop movement (say 1952, '53...) when the
hipster look was all the rage among rebellious white teenagers...zoot
suits,shades, the works. I was about 5 at the time and I REMEMBER my
next door neighbor...just out of college... taking the name "Oogie"
and going out in some very out clothes.
The "bebop" style didn't really take hold for long...maybe because
it was too "black" for the time, maybe because the media got SERIOUSLY
busy trying to find less threatening styles.
If you want, read Nowman Mailer's essay "The White Negro" or
William Burrough's first book "Junky" for some insights into the
bebopper's effect on mainstream white kids. 10 years later, these kids
turned up as the Beat generation.
=========================
>10)Bebop was the first cry of the civil rights movement
>-> This is a huge stretch, that Sabutin really needs to back up before
> he can be credible making it. While he's gathering his sources, he
> should ponder the fact that the most visible faces of the civil rights
> movements were in SCLC (i.e. Southern Baptists who thought jazz and blues
> were the devil's music), SNCC (i.e. college-age people into folk music
> [and Gandhi non-violence]), CORE (whose leader James Farmer did not
> particularly like any music) and the Nation of Islam (whose most visible
> leader Malcolm X deeply loved that non-bopper Billie Holiday)
===============================
Malcolm was on the bebop scene in Boston before he became Malcolm
X, and Billie was as much a bopper" as not.
I repeat, this group of people were the FIRST black social or
artistic movement (w/the possible exception of the back to Africa
movement) to completely reject mainstream society'sfront and replace
it w/one that said they were going to do exactly what they liked and
what are you gonna DO about it.
Read any number of Stanley Crouch's books and articles over the
years...read Albert Murray...if you want to hear more about this. (I
know, they're part of the Anti-Christ that so infuriates so many
dedicated "jazz" fans...try reading them anyway.They were there, or
NEAR there, and they have a damned good take on it.)
I am not a jazz scholar, nor do I wish to be, so my bibliography is
a little on the thin side...I personally don't see how you could have
MISSED the significance of the so-called "bebop revolution" in
relationship to the civil rights movement that followed.
Indeed, later civil rights groups were much more conservative, and
probably many of the leaders were as in the dark about the social
significance of the bebop movement as you assuredly are...just because
you're a "leader" doesn't necessarily mean you KNOW anything...but
these musicians were assuredly social pioneers as well as musical
ones.
I personally thnk (sorry, no "references") that the beboppers were
the first shot in a revolution that peaked in the late '60s and early
'70s and continues to some degree to this day.
Bebop->beatniks-> hippies->the riots in Chicago->the riots in the
black ghettos->the riots Seattle last year and whatever OTHER examples
of the "counterculture" that have managed to survive the current
corporate takeover of America.
================================
> Reference: Taylor Branch's PARTING THE WATERS and PILLAR OF FIRE, the
> first two volumes of his AMERICA IN THE KING YEARS history of the Civil
> Rights movement
>11)<Various civil rights reactionaries> did not care about bebop, they
> just didn't want KLUGLE-MOP (which I guess means black people) in
> their neighborhoods
>-> It's not clear how this relates to bebop as the first cry of the civil
> rights movement, or to Dizzy's appearance, or to moldy figs not hearing
> his trumpet because of same, or to Wynton.
>
>My point is, I get lost trying to follow Sabutin's reasoning, and can't
>get from there (Wynton and early bebop and Dizzy) to here (Orval Faubus
>and Richard Nixon and KLUGLE-MOP.) Can someone help me?
===================
Yes, Marcel...I'LL help you.
The coin has flipped, now it's OUT to be IN.
You...and many other jazz fans...and accepted the "avant-garde" as
the "in" thing to be.
Wynton...like Dizzy...is "different" from the people you have
staked out as your turf, therefore he's the enemy.
Just like Dizzy was.
And like the moldy figs of yore...you don;t LISTEN to what he's
playing, you just THINK about it.
Think about THIS.
Can't get from Dizzy to Faubus???
I'll give you one real short path. (There are a thousand others...)
Massey Hall Concert...Diz, Bird, Max Roach, Bud Powell, Mingus.
(Mingus was part of that revolution.)
In a straight line to...
Mingus's piece "Fables of Faubus"
Listen to it.
Charles was the ONE of all those musicians who tried to say in
words AND in music just what the social significance of the music was.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>--
>Marcel-Franck Simon
======================
You're certainly welcome.
S.
Lincoln
in interview with Dizzy from some mainstream publication like Esquire,
or Life or something like that. If referred to Dizzy as the foremost
spokesman for the new movement. The article focused on the "Jive talk"
and hand shakes, the way the "hep-cats" dressed, etc. It's no
different than ANY other type of music. The mainstream press and the
general population focuses more on the pop culture side of it, rather
than whether or not it has any substance. Most of the general public
wouldn't know substance if it hit them in the face during a money shot
scene.
Diz WAS one of the proponents of the clowning of the "new Movement".
Lincoln
Jack Woker
> Sorry to disappoint you, but I am no worshipper of honourable mr Marsalis.
I wasn't talking about you. :-)
jack
DOUG NORWOOD
Coming from memory, not from research or reading.
The reaction to bebop from the mainstream press was mixed, not universally
negative as might be inferred from postings here.
It's true that Life had an article, several years after the fact, that
focussed on the outre dress styles, the jiviness, the clowning. This article
portrayed Dizzy bowing to Mecca as a devout Muslim (which, to my knowledge,
he never was) and going through a jivey greeting routine with another
bebopper, Benny Carter (!!!!???). No doubt, these were just instances of
Dizzy's putting on the squares.
Another general circulation magazine, Look (forgotten now but nearly as
popular as Life at that time), was quite generous in its coverage of jazz
and quite receptive to bebop as well as to the "progressive jazz" of Kenton
and Raeburn. Esquire also devoted quite a bit of coverage to jazz and I
can recall articles both favoring and opposing bebop. There were others of
less import - I remember a magazine called Pic - which paid quite a bit of
attention to jazz and to current developments affecting it.
Reaction from the music press was mixed as well. On the whole, Metronome
was whole hog in favor of bop. Down Beat was generally, though not
universally, positive (Don Haynes' notorious review of Parker's Now's the
Time/Billy's Bounce is legend).
I have always felt that the Mouldy Figge vs. Beboppers controversy, though
it may have had some basis in fact, was largely promoted by writers, critics
and publicists to promote sales. In a sense, it was almost a time of
musical McCarthyism as celebrated musicians were quoted as classifying one
type of music or another as being Fascist or Communist or whatever.
DougN
Ronny Johannessen
Jack Woker <ste...@ix.netcom.com> skrev i
meldingsnyheter:38BF2F...@ix.netcom.com...
Sorry to disappoint you, but I am no worshipper of honourable mr Marsalis. I
listened a lot to his music in the 80s, after getting aware of him as a 17
year old member of the Messengers in a concert that sparkled as fireworks.
Such live concerts were quite seldom in western Norway in 1981. But in time
Wynton has put out far more music than affordable to my wallet, and my
interests have moved in other directions.
I am just surprised that Marsalis statements and opinions are picked to
pieces, analyzed and interpreted so often. Is he so important that he
deserves all this passion ? It reminds me a little of the sayings of soccer:
The game is not a matter of life and death - it's far to serious for that...
Ronny (Johannessen)
not forgetting to sign this time
hypochristmutreefuzz
> all these grandiose statements about how jazz is not about soloing.
> All his SERIOUSNESS and total lack of sense of humor. I just
> guy. Was it true that his brother wouldnt speak to him for years?
>
> Blue Monk
> TS Monk the 2nd
naw, man, Julius Hemphill and Miles Davis argue for the ensemble concept
over the solo concept, and they're sighted as Marsalis counter-examples.
And we can talk all the shit we want about him, but he swings balls to
the floor on that new Tain Watts disk. So Wynton likes to talk shit
about music we respec; big deal. He still gets hot on those blues alley
thingamajigs. Why diss him for his assumptively effete critical stances?
I mean, the guy is troubled by what he sees going on with jazz
musicianship, and alot of people are, and he just seems to be grasping
for some honest ethic to clean things up. I mean, he had han bennink and
andrew hill at the lincoln concerts. Shit, if that isn't a nod to the
AG, then fuck it. So he'll never play with Gary Willis or Tim Berne. Ok,
that's cool with me. Jesus let him do his thing yall.
"lifeless man hurling these maxims eros and emotions
to tear through trees and act as guillotines
savage as pathological suburbanite phillistines
helter skelter filtering throughout s
Greg Abrams
"hypochristmutreefuzz" <hypochrist...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:89pk6e$9va$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article
> I mean, the guy is troubled by what he sees going on with jazz
> musicianship, and alot of people are, and he just seems to be grasping
> for some honest ethic to clean things up.
I think that's the problem... at least to me. He can do so much more by just
playing, than by lecturing. Actions speak louder than words, etc. He often
comes off as a negative person in interviews - not when he plays.
Greg
sab...@mindspring.com
>
>Coming from memory, not from research or reading.
>
>The reaction to bebop from the mainstream press was mixed, not universally
>negative as might be inferred from postings here.
==================
True.
Musical McCarthyism (nice idea) ultimately failed,as did it's
politcal counerpart.
But that tendency is a rt of the general spectrum of human
endeavour, and not only never REALLY goes away, but has its proper
place in that spectrum.
Sometimes it's the proper time for conservatism, sometimes for
radicalism. Both forces do their pushing and pulling, and whichever is
right for the conditions in the world at that moment, wins.
>
=============================
>It's true that Life had an article, several years after the fact, that
>focussed on the outre dress styles, the jiviness, the clowning. This article
>portrayed Dizzy bowing to Mecca as a devout Muslim (which, to my knowledge,
>he never was) and going through a jivey greeting routine with another
>bebopper, Benny Carter (!!!!???). No doubt, these were just instances of
>Dizzy's putting on the squares.
>
=====================
Yes, but Life's USES of it had a clear sociological implication.
Life could just have easily done a photoshoot that showed Diz
studiously seated at the piano, glasses and all, showing his musicians
the proper use of the Eb7 in "Night in Tunisia"...but they didn't.
Clown sells, Dizzy understood that and so did Life, but I think
there was much more to the resistance and trivialization of bebop hjan
that. Maybe not a CONSCIOUS decision, but nevertheless, if the
beboppers had been a bunch of serious looking young white men their
implicit threat to the status quo would have been WAY less, and their
coverage in the media concomitantly different.
=====================
>Another general circulation magazine, Look (forgotten now but nearly as
>popular as Life at that time), was quite generous in its coverage of jazz
>and quite receptive to bebop as well as to the "progressive jazz" of Kenton
>and Raeburn. Esquire also devoted quite a bit of coverage to jazz and I
>can recall articles both favoring and opposing bebop. There were others of
>less import - I remember a magazine called Pic - which paid quite a bit of
>attention to jazz and to current developments affecting it.
>
>Reaction from the music press was mixed as well. On the whole, Metronome
>was whole hog in favor of bop. Down Beat was generally, though not
>universally, positive (Don Haynes' notorious review of Parker's Now's the
>Time/Billy's Bounce is legend).
>
>I have always felt that the Mouldy Figge vs. Beboppers controversy, though
>it may have had some basis in fact, was largely promoted by writers, critics
>and publicists to promote sales.
=========================
I'm sure that's true, to some degree...but not entirely
Do you think the prominent support of Wynton Marsalis by the
mainstream "serious" media (as in the NY Times, governmental grant
funded TV and radio) has to do w/the intrinsic value of his music?
NAAAAHHHH...it has to do w/his MESSAGE as WELL as sales or purely
musical considerations , and his message is "join the center". (Diana
Kral too.) I don''t necessarily put ANY value judgement on this
message OR the media's support of it...maybe it IS time to retrench.
However, if his message was "take it to the streets", and his music
was just a s good...do you think he'd be in the same position he is
now?
It's NOT all about sales...it's about selling that which supports
the needs of the society, and it's increasingly about what huge
business and government THINKS will best support those needs. Market
driven social philosophy.
Life spoke for McCarthy for a long while...go back to the articles
portraying him as "Tail Gunner Joe"...until he got SO paranoid even
the right wing began to realize he was nuts. Spoke for Nixon and Roy
Cohn as well. LOVELY shots of those two fascists (and they were...),
heads together, trying to figure out who to screw next...
Things are a little different now, but the media doesn't just
choose a style or hero and then sell sell sell...they gotta choose one
that fits the needs of the times.
Increasingly, the "needs of the times" are dictated by the same
people who control the hype machine.
Eventually, they're gonna mess up...
S.
================
Bruce LeClaire
DOUG NORWOOD wrote:
>
> Coming from memory, not from research or reading.
>
> The reaction to bebop from the mainstream press was mixed, not universally
> negative as might be inferred from postings here.
>
> It's true that Life had an article, several years after the fact, that
> focussed on the outer dress styles, the jiviness, the clowning. This article
> portrayed Dizzy bowing to Mecca as a devout Muslim (which, to my knowledge,
> he never was) and going through a jivey greeting routine with another
> bebopper, Benny Carter (!!!!???). No doubt, these were just instances of
> Dizzy's putting on the squares.
>
Here's a relevant paragraph from Feather's 1949 "Inside Jazz"...
"National magazines, having heard that Dizzy's followers were aping his
whiskers, beret and glasses as well as his trumpet playing, ran feature
stories in which the musical importance of bebop was virtually ignored
while the eccentricities of some of its followers were exaggerated
tenfold. 'How Deaf Can You Get?' sneered Time in its headline, belatedly
acknowledging Dizzy's existence in a piece on bop (May 17, 1948). A
nadir in taste, in which Dizzy's own acquiescence must be held partly
responsible, was the six-page spread in Life magazine in the fall of
1948, which was packed with errors of fact and judgment, culminating in
a picture of Dizzy, supposedly a Mohammedan, bowing to Mecca."
Like I've said, the book is like a window back in time.
--Bruce
Lincoln
were goofing on the white reporters who were fascinated by this new
thing. The reporters were probably trying to be hip.
Of course, I also believer that Dizzy knew what he was doing. He was a
hell of a marketer.
Lincoln
Monk5by5
>> musicianship, and alot of people are, and he just seems to be grasping
>> for some honest ethic to clean things up.
>
>
exactly the problem. He honestly believes that 'his guys' are better than the
other guys. He believes that Myra Melford and hundreds of other good or great
jazz musicians have no place in jazz.
he is troubled by people who are breaking the rules-and he becomes worse in his
comments and attitudes as time moves on.
Lincoln
Thank you.
L
Tom Walls
>
>snip
>I am just surprised that Marsalis statements and opinions are picked to
>pieces, analyzed and interpreted so often. Is he so important that he
>deserves all this passion ? It reminds me a little of the sayings of soccer:
>The game is not a matter of life and death - it's far to serious for that...
>
>Ronny (Johannessen)
>not forgetting to sign this time
>
Here in the states, every time the mainstream media features jazz it's either
presented by, or features comments by Wynton, and he's generally portrayed as
a spokesman for jazz. Overexposure alone could account for his widespread
dislike by jazz afficianados.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
beelzbubba
<DOUG_N...@prodigy.net> writes:
>It's true that Life had an article, several years after the fact, that
>focussed on the outre dress styles, the jiviness, the clowning. This article
>portrayed Dizzy bowing to Mecca as a devout Muslim (which, to my knowledge,
>he never was) and going through a jivey greeting routine with another
>bebopper, Benny Carter (!!!!???). No doubt, these were just instances of
>Dizzy's putting on the squares.
In my extremely humble and damn near omniscient opinion, I think we have beat
that ol' dead horse called Wynton Marsalis so much that it has risen from the
beyond and is dancing around doing the hokey-pokey.
But to clarify a point, it may be possible that John Birks Gillespie was at
some time a Muslim, I don't have any confrimation one way or another. But for
a substantial period of his life, and TTBOMK up til he died, he followed the
Baha'i' faith. He was an ambassador without portfolio for peace, tolerance,
and understanding.
release me from aohell to email
Jim Flannery
>
> If in 100 years there are in place fine "jazz" orchestras in major
> cities across the world in a position roughly analogous to the
> symphony orchestra system as it stands now, and if generations of
> performers and composers utilize that system to make great
> music...and I think that is a VERY likely scenario...then it will be
> largely because of Wynton's efforts.
And if those orchestras' repertoire displays the same balance -- of
200-year-old chestnuts that the entire audience has memorized to
challenging, exploratory work by living composers -- that we see in the
symphony orchestra system as it stands now, I will well & truly be
grateful to be dead.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Flannery newg...@sfo.com
"[Americans] are just like people everywhere else, except
that they're not terrified of American foreign policy."
-- Walt Willis
DOUG NORWOOD
beelzbubba <beelz...@aol.comaohell> wrote in message
news:20000307154832...@nso-co.aol.com...
> In article <89r4pi$23sk$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>, "DOUG NORWOOD"
> <DOUG_N...@prodigy.net> writes:
>
>
> In my extremely humble and damn near omniscient opinion, I think we have
beat
> that ol' dead horse called Wynton Marsalis so much that it has risen from
the
> beyond and is dancing around doing the hokey-pokey.
I can't disagree with that. I believe most of the rancor toward Marsalis
has to do with his personality, not his musicianship. He is a fine trumpet
player, an ADEQUATE if not monumental jazz musician. As an advocate for
jazz, there are both positives and negatives but I believe the former
outweigh the latter.
>
> But to clarify a point, it may be possible that John Birks Gillespie was
at
> some time a Muslim, I don't have any confrimation one way or another.
Nor do I. I seem to recall that, while he was not unsympathetic to those
who did choose the Muslim faith, he did not embrace it himself.
> But for a substantial period of his life, and TTBOMK up til he died, he
followed the
> Baha'i' faith. He was an ambassador without portfolio for peace,
tolerance,
> and understanding.
For certain, Dizzy was an adherent of Baha'i' for many years. And yes, he
was all you say here, not to mention being the last presidential candidate
I'm able to take seriously.
>
>
Chris Barrick
sab...@mindspring.com wrote:
> "PETER GILLESPIE" <rat...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Blue Monk,
> >you took the words right out of my mouth! i happened to catch part of
> >another
> >of those horrible BRAVO specials on jazz--this one on louis armstrong--when
> >suddenly, there's professor wynton, pontificating on the greatness of
> >"pops," acting almost like an "eye witness" to armstrong's early magic
> >back in the 20's. and, as usual, telling us all How To Feel and What To
> >Think about it everything.
> >i'm long since fed up with this smug, over-hyped schoolteacher. he's just
> >billy taylor with a trumpet instead of a piano---but with even less
> >personality. wynton, please stop lecturing and start developing an
> >instrumental style!
> >you're not the fresh-faced young prodigy any longer.
> >
> >question: is marsalis as over-rated as a classical trumpeter as he is as a
> >jazz improvisor?
> >comments, please.
> >
> >peteG
> >
> ====================
>
> You know, in a sense I sometimes feel as if Wynton is the Dizzy
> Gillespie of our time.
>
> In the early bebop years, lots of people didn't HEAR Diz at all,
> they only saw his act, the shades, the goatee, the OOP BOP SHBAM, the
> jive talk, and crossed him off as some kind of faker or jazz novelty
> act like Cab Calloway...from whom, although I believe Diz DID cut him
> in the buttocks during a little tiff, Diz copped a great deal of his
> shtick. (Kinda like Muhammad Ali did from Gorgeous George...from the
> ridicluous, to the sublime.)
>
> Earlier in this series of posts (another thread, same general
> subject) I said that in a blind listening, behind a screen, Wynton
> would be chosen in the top 10 or so of any couple of hundred
> mainstream jazz OR orchestral trumpet players by almost any
> cross-section of people really involved in those idioms...listeners,
> musicians, critics, you name it. He plays that well at his peak form.
>
> The reason...they wouldn't see his Leonard Bernstein Jr. act,
> wouldn't have any preconception, they'd, just hear his music.
>
> Don't be put off by his front...you'll miss what's behind it, which
> is as real as it gets.
>
> S.
>
> P.S. Heard a good Bernstein story which pertains directly to this
> problem. A friend was once called to sub in the Philharmonic on
> saxophone while Bernstein was still the music director.
>
> Now you have to understand that most really good musicians are
> aware that many (most?) orcherstral conductors are poseurs...all
> flying hair and grand gestures, not much in the way of real conducting
> information. It's part of the gig. The band plays, the conductor puts
> on the show.
>
> This guy did a couple of rehearsals w/Bernstien and was knocked
> OUT...clear concise beat, great ears and understanding of the music.
> He thought "Well, HERE'S a guy who can stand up to his reputation, and
> all this time I thought he was jive !!"
>
> Comes the concert ??? Not a downbeat in a bushel...all theatrics,
> playing to the bluehairs in the box seats...but Bernstein was the one
> w/all the gigs...
>
> Get it yet ???
================================================================
Yes but that was in the early bebop years, when jazz was changing faster than
computer chips.....
But since wynton came along, all he's done is played whats been invented, and
just bitched about experimentations with music, which was essentially what bebop
was...so to call wynton a dizzy based on the fact that they both talked alot,
your right, but diz was part of a whole new culture, explaining the goatee,
sunglasses, funny hats, etc.
And wynton wasn't!!
Chris
P.s i hope everyone understood that
BHamer1048
immensely enjoyable with strong playing all around. Why close yourself off from
this because of style/personality? Negative thoughts are easier but ultimately
constricting.
sibree/wilkes
bhame...@aol.com (BHamer1048) wrote:
"Now Adolf Hitler, there was a good painter! Two rooms in one day."
Billy
Ralf Wacker
sibree/wilkes <num...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
> "Now Adolf Hitler, there was a good painter! Two rooms in one day."
>
> Billy
Really no acceptable comparison, and a terrible answer! :-<
Ralf Wacker, Steinen, Germany
----------------------------------
Dim Izhak
> "Now Adolf Hitler, there was a good painter! Two rooms in one day."
>
> Billy
You're an idiot.
--
Later,
--Dim.
JC Martin
news:20000404042302...@ng-cb1.aol.com...
> Why not just enjoy the music ? The Village Vanguard recordings are, in my
view,
> immensely enjoyable with strong playing all around. Why close yourself off
from
> this because of style/personality? Negative thoughts are easier but
ultimately
> constricting.
I've heard a good deal of this via a friend who works in the business. It
really didn't do much for me. Too stiff IMO.
-JC
beelzbubba
>Why not just enjoy the music ? The Village Vanguard recordings are, in my
>view,
>immensely enjoyable with strong playing all around. Why close yourself off
>from
>this because of style/personality? Negative thoughts are easier but
Yes, I agree. If you had to judge artists by what they say or do rather than
by their art, you sure wouldn't have a lot of interest in Picasso, Miles, or
countless others. Some have made far more outrageous pronouncements than
Marsalis has made. I think a lot of the backlash on Marsalis is because we'd
like him to play and not be controversial in his pronouncements. Well, since
he's been consistently open about his beliefs about jazz for some time now, it
ceases to surprise me when he says something else assinine. But it doesn't
stop me from listening to his music.
Do we care because he may be influencing young jazz minds? If the minds are
open they'll hear counterarguments. And why imbue him with so much power. In
the past month, there have been 5 or more articles in our local paper about AG
artists in the metro area and the last one about Marsalis/LCJO was when they
came to town (minus WM). And they killed, live, too. Bottom line?
Let him prattle on. Macht's nichts.
JC Martin
lacks imagination, and his version of swing is as stiff as it gets IMO.
-JC
beelzbubba <beelz...@aol.comaohell> wrote in message
news:20000409122229...@ng-ff1.aol.com...
Paul Craig Sanwald
: I actually enjoy Marsalis's rap. He can be entertaining. But his music
: lacks imagination, and his version of swing is as stiff as it gets IMO.
I don't think he sounds stiff at all on the new (ok, semi-new) Jeff
"tain " Watts record. This is my favorite Wynton on record ever. I've
seen his septet and wasn't impressed, but to say he can't swing at all
is a little weak. I mean, you could argue the same thing about any player.
except for cannonball adderly.
--paul
Paulmc
Paul Craig Sanwald wrote:
or Zoot Sims
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <38F34636...@mediaone.net> :
or Johnny Griffin
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
Jazz Guitar
www.mindspring.com/~jazure/music.html - to buy my CDs and listen to J'Azure
www.onestopjazz.com - for a comprehensive index of internet jazz resources
www.mindspring.com/~kvansant - for jazz guitar samples and info
Blue Lake
Kevin Van Sant <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:i5k6fso5jk4a7qhst...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:35:18 -0500, Paulmc <pau...@mediaone.net>
> wrote in message <38F34636...@mediaone.net> :
>
> >
> >
> >Paul Craig Sanwald wrote:
> >
> >> JC Martin (subs...@earthlink.net) wrote:
> >> : I actually enjoy Marsalis's rap. He can be entertaining. But his
music
> >> : lacks imagination, and his version of swing is as stiff as it gets
IMO.
> >> :
> >>
> >> I don't think he sounds stiff at all on the new (ok, semi-new) Jeff
> >> "tain " Watts record. This is my favorite Wynton on record ever. I've
> >> seen his septet and wasn't impressed, but to say he can't swing at all
> >> is a little weak. I mean, you could argue the same thing about any
player.
> >>
> >> except for cannonball adderly.
> >>
> >> --paul
> >
> >or Zoot Sims
>
> or Johnny Griffin
Jazz Guitar
>
Lazaro Vega
> _________________________________________
Murphy McMahon
news:8d0jpg$e4o$0...@205.138.138.3...
> > >> except for cannonball adderly.
> > >>
> > >
> > >or Zoot Sims
> >
> > or Johnny Griffin
>
> or Count Basie.
Or Elvin frickin' Jones
--
Murph
puck
Sanwald) exclaimed:
>JC Martin (subs...@earthlink.net) wrote:
>: I actually enjoy Marsalis's rap. He can be entertaining. But his music
>: lacks imagination, and his version of swing is as stiff as it gets IMO.
>:
>
>I don't think he sounds stiff at all on the new (ok, semi-new) Jeff
>"tain " Watts record. This is my favorite Wynton on record ever. I've
>seen his septet and wasn't impressed, but to say he can't swing at all
>is a little weak. I mean, you could argue the same thing about any player.
>
>except for cannonball adderly.
>
>--paul
i do like early wynton a lot. the problem he has is that he is
technically perhaps the best trumpeter of his generation but rather
backward looking and always trying to look to the past and lacks the
soul and heart to play something passionate.
regards
puck
"i only want the best thing for you
and the best thing for you is me"
- sings Diana Krall
Jazz4you
fun. Even Ellington had a sense of humor with his music, as do all the
greats. Don't get me wrong, it is a serious art form, but at it's base
is good times and great players.
All one has to do to prove this is to listen to the difference between
Wyntons' pontifical readings of early Duke, and compare them to the Don
Byron readings (Bug Music), and you can hear the difference. It's
almost like you can feel the musicians smiling, almost on their way to
laughing they are having such a good time. Go back to the fun, Wynton.
Stop with the sermons, and make music!!
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