WHAT DID DOLPHY STUDY?
Sammykins71
(excerise books, theory books, etc.). if anyone know please reply or email me
sammy...@aol.com
Luke Kaven
There are people you could get in touch with who could fill you in
more or less first-hand on some of the esoteric music theory that
Dolphy explored. Yusef Lateef is a good start, and there are a few
examples of Dolphy's synthetic scales in his Repository. A lot of
this knowledge was going around at the time, and you can find people
like Roland Wiggins, Reggie Workman, Steve Neill (if anyone knows
where he is), Yusef Lateef, Sonny Fortune, or Donald Byrd who could
tell you a lot about these things, and how Dolphy (and others) made
use out of them. Roland Wiggins would be a key place to start, since
he taught a lot of these others.
Luke
Da Parrot-chick
news:20040212164231...@mb-m13.aol.com...
I think he used the same book that Coltrane used: "Nicholas Slonimsky's
Thesaurus of Scales & Patterns".
Luke Kaven
>"Sammykins71" <sammy...@aol.com> wrote
>> i really like eric dolphy's stuff and i wanted to know what he studied
>> (excerise books, theory books, etc.). if anyone know please reply or email me
>> sammy...@aol.com
>
>I think he used the same book that Coltrane used: "Nicholas Slonimsky's
>Thesaurus of Scales & Patterns".
...with some help from Roland Wiggins.
Da Parrot-chick
"Luke Kaven" <lu...@smallsrecords.com> wrote in message
news:em6o20dpin2t5rtfg...@4ax.com...
I don't know this Wiggins book--can you tell me more about it?
Luke Kaven
>"Luke Kaven" <lu...@smallsrecords.com> wrote
>>
>> >"Sammykins71" <sammy...@aol.com> wrote
>> >> i really like eric dolphy's stuff and i wanted to know what he studied
>> >> (excerise books, theory books, etc.). if anyone know please reply or
>email me
>> >> sammy...@aol.com
>> >
>> >I think he used the same book that Coltrane used: "Nicholas Slonimsky's
>> >Thesaurus of Scales & Patterns".
>>
>> ...with some help from Roland Wiggins.
>
>I don't know this Wiggins book--can you tell me more about it?
Roland Wiggins...Philadelphia born, student of Henry Cowell and
Vincent Persichetti at Juilliard, theorist, educator (UMass, Amherst,
Hampshire College, University of Virginia). Did systematic study of
statistical tonal tendencies in an effort to gain a general insight
into tonal behavior. An expert on esoteric music theory, including
various synthetic structures (tonal clusters, synthetic scales, strata
harmony). Influential among jazz musicians in the 1960s, 1970s.
Thesis advisor to Yusef Lateef, Billy Taylor...teacher to Coltrane
(late, around Insterstellar Space), Sonny Fortune, Donald Byrd, Kenny
Barron. A vastly underappreciated and modest fellow, overshadowed by
lesser self-promoting educators. If you want to learn a lot about
Roland's ideas, you can find a lot of it digested in Yusef Lateef's
"Repository of Scale and Melodic Patterns".
Luke
Zoot
last thing i knew donald byrd could be reached at oberlin where he was
filling in for dr. wendell logan [head of the fine jazz school]. i'm
sure he has his hands full but i'll bet he can help. meanwhile if you
like the way dolphy played above the chord, as a trumpet player let me
recommend kenny dorham and woody shaw.
Glenn Wilson
Glenn
www.jazzmaniac.com
"Sammykins71" <sammy...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040212164231...@mb-m13.aol.com...
Zoot
happy to say that wendell is back so forget what i said about reaching
donald byrd at oberlin. sorry
Fabio Rojas
>> >i really like eric dolphy's stuff and i wanted to know what he studied
>> >(excerise books, theory books, etc.). if anyone know please reply or email me
>> >sammy...@aol.com
Wasn't Eric Dolphy a student of Buddy Collette? I believe Mr. Collette is
still active - he just published a memoir. Maybe you ask him.
Fabio
David Kotschessa
and played with. If I remember when I get home I can go through it
and give you some names. I also remember that he played a lot of
classical music too, though it did not say exactly what he was "into"
aside what he may have been taught through any traditional means.
And yes, he did like birds! (And Bird)
BTW, Hi. I just delurked, and I usually post on the jazz guitar and
classical guitar newsgroups.
David Kotschessa
Here we go, some excerpts fromt he insert. Dolphy's probably one of
my top 3 favorite all time musicians, BTW.
...It was during this period that Eric first discovered jazz, via
recordings first by Fats Waller, then Duke Ellington and COleman
Hawkins. He told critic Martin Williams, "I used to ask myself, "what
is that?" at the things they played. I wanted to know how they did
all of them."
...Later, in 1954, it would be at Dolphy's that saxophonist Harold
Land would meet Clifford Brown and Max Roach and be invited to join
their new quintet. Dolphy formed one of his first bands in 1944, when
he was 16, and renowned bandleader-composer-trumpeter Gerald Wilson
remembered it as "a band that would have been considered modern
today."
By 1946, Dolphy was attending Los Angeles City COllege and was styding
with Lloyd Reese, a renowned instructor who also taught [big list of
names here including Mingus and Collete]...[Wilbur brown] remembers
Eric as a man who was deeply into the music of Bird....
...Dolphy also studied flute with Socorso Pirrola and Elise Moennig.
"Elise did a lot for him, gave him a the good classical literature,"
said Collete. "You see, what Eric had that a lot of jazz players
don't have is the background in classical music. He loved to practice
it. He'd play more classical than jazz, so he had the fingers to do
the difficult things. He could just dance them off."
(this is one of my favorite parts coming up)
...In 1954, Dolphy met both John Coltrane and Ornette Coleman...When
Eric and Ornette spent time together, they discovered that they shared
similar musical philosophies. Dolphy told Martin Williams: "I had
heard about Ornette and when I heard him play, he asked me if I liked
his pieces and I said I thought they sounded good. When he said that
if someone played a chord, he heard another chord [superimposed] on
that one, I knew what he was talking about, because I had been
thinking the same things."
(here's the part about the birds)
...Often, he would sit outside the studio and practice, and the birds
would chime in, and then he'd play with them. "I would stop what I
was working on and play with the birds...," Dolphy said. "Birds have
notes in between our notes....Indian music has something of the same
quality - Different scales and quarter tones."
Whew, anyway, buy the "Complete Prestige recordings box set." Just
spend the money! Here's an amazon link so you know which one I'm
talking about. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000000ZC6/qid=1076983998//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl15/002-2084419-2441655?v=glance&s=music&n=507846
Warren Senders
>would chime in, and then he'd play with them. "I would stop what I
>was working on and play with the birds...," Dolphy said. "Birds have
>notes in between our notes....Indian music has something of the same
>quality - Different scales and quarter tones."
Interestingly, Indian music doesn't use "quarter tones," despite a lot
of verbiage to the contrary. Some pitches in *some* ragas are rendered
somewhat lower or higher than their equal-tempered equivalents, but
there is no chromatic quartertone anywhere in the system. I assume that
"quarter-tone" is a convenient shorthand for "interval that's a little lower/
higher than the one on my piano."
An interesting recording called "The Secret music of Birds" has birdsong
slowed down, in some cases by 16 or 32 times. What sounds to our ears
like a harsh burst of superhigh twitters turns out to be a complex melodic
run which clearly uses interval sequences fairly high in the overtone series;
some birds' songs contain 15 or 20 discrete pitches. Amazing. Wonder if
Dolphy could restructure his time perception to grasp all that?
Warren
Zoot
> Dolphy could restructure his time perception to grasp all that?
>
> Warren
check out you don't know what love is on last date or out to lunch i
don't remember which [sr. moment]
David Kotschessa
dkotschessa AT yahoo DOT com
On Mon, 17 Feb 2004, Warren Senders wrote:
> >...Often, he would sit outside the studio and practice, and the birds
> >would chime in, and then he'd play with them. "I would stop what I
> >was working on and play with the birds...," Dolphy said. "Birds have
> >notes in between our notes....Indian music has something of the same
> >quality - Different scales and quarter tones."
>
> Interestingly, Indian music doesn't use "quarter tones," despite a lot
> of verbiage to the contrary. Some pitches in *some* ragas are rendered
> somewhat lower or higher than their equal-tempered equivalents, but
> there is no chromatic quartertone anywhere in the system. I assume that
> "quarter-tone" is a convenient shorthand for "interval that's a little lower/
> higher than the one on my piano."
Hmm, more like "bent" notes, I guess. I suppose you could say the same
thing about a lot of blues players, bending notes not-quite-a-half step,
but you wouldn't really consider it part of the tonal system.
> An interesting recording called "The Secret music of Birds" has birdsong
> slowed down, in some cases by 16 or 32 times. What sounds to our ears
> like a harsh burst of superhigh twitters turns out to be a complex melodic
> run which clearly uses interval sequences fairly high in the overtone series;
> some birds' songs contain 15 or 20 discrete pitches. Amazing. Wonder if
> Dolphy could restructure his time perception to grasp all that?
>
> Warren
Gimme! Where is that recording?
I think amazing musicians like Dolphy tend to have amazing ears. That's
what I like about that quote about the conversation between Dolphy and
Ornette. Their playing has less to do with their instrument and more to
do with how they _heard_. If Dolphy's mind and ears were hearing chords
superimposed on those that he heard, it may not be that far a stretch to
imagine that he heard something else when listening to those birds!
David Kotschessa
dkotschessa AT yahoo DOT com
...or disk 8 of the box set. :)
Warren Senders
>> slowed down, in some cases by 16 or 32 times. What sounds to our ears
>> like a harsh burst of superhigh twitters turns out to be a complex melodic
>> run which clearly uses interval sequences fairly high in the overtone
>series;
>> some birds' songs contain 15 or 20 discrete pitches. Amazing. Wonder
>if
>> Dolphy could restructure his time perception to grasp all that?
>>
>
>
>
>I think amazing musicians like Dolphy tend to have amazing ears. That's
>what I like about that quote about the conversation between Dolphy and
>Ornette. Their playing has less to do with their instrument and more to
>do with how they _heard_. If Dolphy's mind and ears were hearing chords
>superimposed on those that he heard, it may not be that far a stretch to
>imagine that he heard something else when listening to those birds!
I got my names slightly wrong. Try googling on the phrase
'The Unknown Music of Birds' and you'll find a couple of listings.
I have a copy.
WS
Ed Rhodes
Interesting, since "You Don't Know What Love Is" was recorded for
Limelight (Mercury) on the album "Last Date". You mention elsewhere
that this was the Prestige box. Can you clarify?
Ed Rhodes
Gary Hogan
Thanks
Ed Rhodes
wrote:
>...Later, in 1954, it would be at Dolphy's that saxophonist Harold
>Land would meet Clifford Brown and Max Roach and be invited to join
>their new quintet. Dolphy formed one of his first bands in 1944, when
>he was 16, and renowned bandleader-composer-trumpeter Gerald Wilson
>remembered it as "a band that would have been considered modern
>today."
The Dolphy list has several times revisited a thread which asserts
that one of the "Brownie Eyes" disks on Philology contains a Brownie
jam session on which Eric can be heard. I'm not clear that there is
final agreement on this but the corollary assumption is that the set
was recorded at Dolphy's house.
>By 1946, Dolphy was attending Los Angeles City COllege and was styding
>with Lloyd Reese, a renowned instructor who also taught [big list of
>names here including Mingus and Collete]...[Wilbur brown] remembers
>Eric as a man who was deeply into the music of Bird....
There is reference to this in Simosko's Dolphy biography.
Interestingly, there is also reference to it in the liner notes to the
Savoy lp 2-fer, "Black California", which includes the Savoy sessions
by Roy Porter from 1948-49 on which Dolphy performs.
>...In 1954, Dolphy met both John Coltrane and Ornette Coleman...When
>Eric and Ornette spent time together, they discovered that they shared
>similar musical philosophies. Dolphy told Martin Williams: "I had
>heard about Ornette and when I heard him play, he asked me if I liked
>his pieces and I said I thought they sounded good. When he said that
>if someone played a chord, he heard another chord [superimposed] on
>that one, I knew what he was talking about, because I had been
>thinking the same things."
A bit more detail on the Coltrane meeting is in Lewis Porter's
Coltrane bio. Dolphy and Coltrane met when Trane was playing with the
Johnny Hodges band, which was performing in California.
Most of the details you quote have appeared elsewhere but the box
set's notes sound interesting to the extent that they compile them in
one place.
I'm archiving your post. Good info.
Ed Rhodes
Zoot
>
> I think amazing musicians like Dolphy tend to have amazing ears. That's
> what I like about that quote about the conversation between Dolphy and
> Ornette. Their playing has less to do with their instrument and more to
> do with how they _heard_. If Dolphy's mind and ears were hearing chords
> superimposed on those that he heard, it may not be that far a stretch to
> imagine that he heard something else when listening to those birds!
it's a wonder i remember anything from the mid 60s but i remember alto
player mark behabetz [where is he now?] asking about dolphy " how
does he hear that shit"? how about cats like stravinski and
shostakovitch?
they definitely heard some other sounds before they were even made.
man there stuff is sooooo gone.
David Kotschessa
Sorry for the late reply. Looks like I was wrong:
I haven't listened to the set in awhile. What's funny is that I
actually heard it in my head when I was thinking about it, and I heard
the exact instrumentation - Dolphy playing flute. But as it turns out
I was thinking of "Don't Blame Me." Yet still, in my head I morphed
the melody and chord progression to that of "You don't know what love
is," but with the same instrumentation and tone.
So I have a completely fictional rendition of the song in my head...
Geeze!
Gotta go, my imaginary friend just sent me an e-mail...
-D
David Kotschessa
> On 16 Feb 2004 18:14:12 -0800, dkots...@yahoo.com (David Kotschessa)
> wrote:
>
> >...Later, in 1954, it would be at Dolphy's that saxophonist Harold
> >Land would meet Clifford Brown and Max Roach and be invited to join
> >their new quintet. Dolphy formed one of his first bands in 1944, when
> >he was 16, and renowned bandleader-composer-trumpeter Gerald Wilson
> >remembered it as "a band that would have been considered modern
> >today."
>
> The Dolphy list has several times revisited a thread which asserts
> that one of the "Brownie Eyes" disks on Philology contains a Brownie
> jam session on which Eric can be heard. I'm not clear that there is
> final agreement on this but the corollary assumption is that the set
> was recorded at Dolphy's house.
Is that the pitt mailing list? I was subscribed to it on another
e-mail address and had forgotten all about it.
> >...In 1954, Dolphy met both John Coltrane and Ornette Coleman...When
> >Eric and Ornette spent time together, they discovered that they shared
> >similar musical philosophies. Dolphy told Martin Williams: "I had
> >heard about Ornette and when I heard him play, he asked me if I liked
> >his pieces and I said I thought they sounded good. When he said that
> >if someone played a chord, he heard another chord [superimposed] on
> >that one, I knew what he was talking about, because I had been
> >thinking the same things."
>
> A bit more detail on the Coltrane meeting is in Lewis Porter's
> Coltrane bio. Dolphy and Coltrane met when Trane was playing with the
> Johnny Hodges band, which was performing in California.
>
> Most of the details you quote have appeared elsewhere but the box
> set's notes sound interesting to the extent that they compile them in
> one place.
>
> I'm archiving your post. Good info.
>
> Ed Rhodes
I would say the box set was worth every last penny, had I not gotten
it as a christmas gift. Probably was the best gift I ever receieved
though. I just wish I wasn't so careless with my CDs, as I seem to be
missing a few! The box set is simply heaven. I used to listen to it
on my one hour drive to work and drink a lot of coffee. Never had so
much fun commuting. I was really wired by the time I got to work!
-D
Ed Rhodes
wrote:
>Ed Rhodes <e...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<b05530pkh051kh8l2...@4ax.com>...
>> The Dolphy list has several times revisited a thread which asserts
>> that one of the "Brownie Eyes" disks on Philology contains a Brownie
>> jam session on which Eric can be heard.
>
>
>Is that the pitt mailing list? I was subscribed to it on another
>e-mail address and had forgotten all about it.
Yes. Dolp...@list.pitt.edu. The majordomo is,
Majo...@list.pitt.edu.
Ed Rhodes
hang a monarch
(in message <946h30ts8sghdou4r...@4ax.com>):
BE ADVISED : no longer at pitt, as moderator alan saul has relocated to
augusta georgia, and has taken the list to a new domain/host.
try this: Dolp...@adale.org
Ed Rhodes
> BE ADVISED : no longer at pitt, as moderator alan saul has relocated to
>augusta georgia, and has taken the list to a new domain/host.
>
>try this: Dolp...@adale.org
Many thanks.
Ed Rhodes