alto sax = bebop, tenor sax = modal ????
Pez Espada
play bebop-ish for of jazz whereas tenor player followthe modal
approach to their music???
m b nelms
Some tenor players like bop as much as alto players.
It may be that more tenor players fall under Trane's influence vs.
Cannonball for alto, and this could account for the difference.
However, both could play either, as Kind of Blue and Milestones document.
Mike
"Pez Espada" <pez_e...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d4981f49.03032...@posting.google.com...
> It is this statement a statistical true?? i.e. most altoist tend to
> play bebop-ish for of jazz whereas tenor player followthe modal
> approach to their music???
I don't think your equation could be taken very far
(where's Ornette?) but it's interesting to think about.
I think it likely that the influence of Bird and Trane,
respectively, on alto players and tenor players has
been pretty decisive. Also, it may be that the greater
tonal pallete and dynamic range of the tenor may
inspire tenor players to go "outside" more than alto
players -- but again, this would be very difficult to
back up statistically. Then again, what about the
soprano players, most of whom seem to be modal
players? Is that because there was no influential model
of "bebop" soprano? Few people could name a pre-
Coltrane soprano player other than Bechet.
--
Mike
Pez Espada
Don`t get me wrong. I talk about a "statistical" tendence. Regards
modal soprano players, most sopranos double tenor sax (again inside my
"statistical equation"). Maybe the range and or tone of both tenor and
alto make more natural the modal and bebop music respectevely?? Just a
curiosity.
pez
Nathan Tenny
Pez Espada <pez_e...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Don`t get me wrong. I talk about a "statistical" tendence. Regards
>modal soprano players, most sopranos double tenor sax (again inside my
>"statistical equation").
Which is another thing I wonder about: Why skip the alto? I know about
the different keys, but (1) written music for transposing instruments is
likely to be transposed, and (2) we're talking about pros here---I don't
think transposing from Eb instead of Bb is a serious obstacle.
>Maybe the range and or tone of both tenor and
>alto make more natural the modal and bebop music respectevely??
I don't think the bop/modal distinction really holds water---tenors have
served bop just fine, after all, but there hasn't been a role model on
the scale of Bird for them. I agree with someone upthread, whose name I
snipped and forgot, that any distinction that exists is more likely to be
due to influence than to the character of the instrument.
The related distinction that I've always heard, a little, is that alto
players (seem to) tend to think melodically, tenors harmonically. That
dovetails fairly well with the influences: Bird was something of a melody
factory, Trane a harmonic monster[1], but I wonder if there isn't something
in the instruments themselves that encourages this as well---the slightly
faster decay of an alto encouraging clean linear playing, the darker tenor
wanting you to stack the notes up. But perhaps I'm talking through my
hat.
NT
[1] Though obviously both were perfectly competent in both worlds; I'm
thinking of stylistic nuances, not gross imbalances in their playing,
of course.
--
Nathan Tenny | Space is where your ass is.
Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA | -William S. Burroughs
<nten...@qualcomm.com> |
void
>
> Is that because there was no influential model
> of "bebop" soprano? Few people could name a pre-
> Coltrane soprano player other than Bechet.
Steve Lacy!
--
Ben
"An art scene of delight
I created this to be ..." -- Sun Ra
Pez Espada
> news:d4981f49.03032...@posting.google.com...
> > It is this statement a statistical true?? i.e. most altoist tend to
> > play bebop-ish for of jazz whereas tenor player followthe modal
> > approach to their music???
>
> I don't think your equation could be taken very far
> (where's Ornette?) but it's interesting to think about.
> I think it likely that the influence of Bird and Trane,
> respectively, on alto players and tenor players has
> been pretty decisive. Also, it may be that the greater
> tonal pallete and dynamic range of the tenor may
> inspire tenor players to go "outside" more than alto
> players
I´m newbie but I believe that "modal" is quite different from
"outside"... or I'm wrong in this sense??
Thanx
Michael West
"Pez Espada" wrote:
>
> I´m newbie but I believe that "modal" is quite different from
> "outside"... or I'm wrong in this sense??
> Thanx
You're not wrong. I put "outside" in quotes to signal
that I am using it as a kind of shorthand.
Modal playing is generally more "free" (shorthand again)
than so-called bebop playing, which follows the chord
progressions rather closely.
--Mike W
Marc Sabatella
> Which is another thing I wonder about: Why skip the alto? I know
about
> the different keys, but (1) written music for transposing instruments
is
> likely to be transposed, and (2) we're talking about pros here---I
don't
> think transposing from Eb instead of Bb is a serious obstacle.
Playing relatively simple standards in different keys is indeed no big
deal. But bebop heads and complex non-tonal music is another matter.
Even for most players I've encountered who play both alto and tenor,
it's one or the other for a given piece, or else you basically learn it
twice. That is, knowing "Donna Lee" on alto doesn't mean you can
instantly the head on tenor, nor does soloing over "Dolphin Dance" on
tenor mean you can automatically do so well on alto, even if you have
mastered both instruments.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Check out my latest CD, "Falling Grace"
Also "A Jazz Improvisation Primer", Sounds, Scores, & More:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Marc Sabatella
> > It is this statement a statistical true?? i.e. most altoist tend to
> > play bebop-ish for of jazz whereas tenor player followthe modal
> > approach to their music???
>
> I don't think your equation could be taken very far
> (where's Ornette?) but it's interesting to think about.
> I think it likely that the influence of Bird and Trane,
> respectively, on alto players and tenor players has
> been pretty decisive.
To the extent that I believe a correlation really exists, this would
seem a plausible explanation. Although it is perhaps just as likely
that no correlation exists, and any correlation we seem to notice (and I
might agree I've noticed one too) really comes down to alto players
being *expected* to come from Bird and tenor players being *expected* to
come from Trane, to the point where those who don't fit this mold come
off as out of the mainstream and don't get the same recognition.
> Also, it may be that the greater
> tonal pallete and dynamic range of the tenor may
> inspire tenor players to go "outside" more than alto
> players -- but again, this would be very difficult to
> back up statistically.
I'm not even sure you could back that up technically - some of most
far-ranging tonal palettes I've heard come from alto players (Anthony
Braxton, for instance). And there seems to be a whole school of alto
players that combine a bebop approach with a raw edge that comes as much
from R&B as from "free jazz".
Pez Espada
> I'm not even sure you could back that up technically - some of most
> far-ranging tonal palettes I've heard come from alto players (Anthony
> Braxton, for instance). And there seems to be a whole school of alto
> players that combine a bebop approach with a raw edge that comes as much
> from R&B as from "free jazz".
i.e Steve Coleman??????
Marc Sabatella
> > And there seems to be a whole school of alto
> > players that combine a bebop approach with a raw edge that comes as
much
> > from R&B as from "free jazz".
>
> i.e Steve Coleman??????
Although I can see how he might fit that description in a way, his tone
is very controlled pretty much at all times. I was thinking of folks
who bring in the honking & screaming sounds.
Martin
played with people who definitely change their style according to the
instrument. Ie quite a lot of people who tend to favour the
Alt/Pentatonic/fourths type of sounds when on tenor, but play more
b9/bird/cannonball lines on the alto.
So, talking to other people, and from my own experiences, it seems (to
me) that the following might be some reason for this
1) you can assume decent players could play in either way
2) they'll also be playing lines that they "hear", rather than
whacking through their latest licks
3) I think what you "hear" is affected by your exeriences of what
you've been listening to
So if you're playing on a tenor, with a metal mouthpiece, set up to
give that Coltrane/Brecker/Berg type sound, then you're less likely to
associate the tone you're producing with a Bird-type line and
articulation, than if you're playing on an alto with a plastic
mouthpiece, and producing a bird type sound.
Obviously this isn't anywhere near exclusively true, but I personlly
think it's definitely a factor.
Incidently, I _think_ the same thing may be true to some extent with
other instruments, particularly trumpet vs flugel (I "hear" more bebop
on trumpet, more Woody Shaw/Kenny Wheeler on the flugel) and, to some
lesser extent, piano vs rhodes (more in that rhodes -> 4th/pentatonic,
than that piano doesn't -> 4th/pentatonic)
Anyway, I think I've wittered ling enough now!!!
Martin
MeMyselfAndI
> I agree (to some extent) with the orignal post, in that I've heard and
> played with people who definitely change their style according to the
> instrument. Ie quite a lot of people who tend to favour the
> Alt/Pentatonic/fourths type of sounds when on tenor, but play more
> b9/bird/cannonball lines on the alto.
>
> So, talking to other people, and from my own experiences, it seems (to
> me) that the following might be some reason for this
The reason for this has to do with the range of the horn. Same as
traditional harmony. The lower you go, the wider your voicings.