Who Wrote Nardis?
JFR
I have been working on the tune Israel, by John Carisi. When I play
over it, I find myself converging on a harmonic minor based approach
most of the time. This happens to me commonly when I also play
Nardis. Upon further comparison, I hear melodic and form similarities
as well. I thought someone, somewhere, posted that Nardis was actually
a Carisi tune. Can someone recap this issue?
Thanks.
John R>
Michael Fitzgerald
Read the rmb FAQ at Matt Snyder's WWW site (he also posts it here
monthly).
http://www.interactive.net/~msnyder
Mike
Marc Sabatella
fitz...@eclipse.net (Michael Fitzgerald) wrote:
>>I thought someone, somewhere, posted that Nardis was actually
>>a Carisi tune. Can someone recap this issue?
>
>Read the rmb FAQ at Matt Snyder's WWW site (he also posts it here
>monthly).
>
>http://www.interactive.net/~msnyder
In general, the tune histories you provided there seem pretty good, but
they don't mention the alleged Carisi connection, even just to refute
it. While it seems clear enough that, despite what many people suspect,
Bill Evans did not write "Nardis", and indeed believed Miles did, I too
have thought it seems Carisi-ish and recall someone who was a friend of
a friend of someone who knew stating on RMB that Carisi did write the
tune. I'm obviously not willing to go with that on face value, but I
would be interested in the source for this claim and any information
anyone has on it.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
"The Outside Shore"
A Jazz Improvisation Primer, Scores, Sounds, & More:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Jeremy Michael Crosbie
In article <6cmr1p$n...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>,
JFR <jre...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>I have been working on the tune Israel, by John Carisi. When I play
>over it, I find myself converging on a harmonic minor based approach
>most of the time. This happens to me commonly when I also play
>Nardis. Upon further comparison, I hear melodic and form similarities
>a Carisi tune. Can someone recap this issue?
>
>John R>
According to the liner notes of Mike Stern's "Standards (an other songs)"
CD, "Nardis" was written by Miles Davis.
Clay M Moore
JFR wrote:
> I have been working on the tune Israel, by John Carisi. When I play
> over it, I find myself converging on a harmonic minor based approach
> most of the time. This happens to me commonly when I also play
> Nardis. Upon further comparison, I hear melodic and form similarities
> as well. I thought someone, somewhere, posted that Nardis was actually
> a Carisi tune. Can someone recap this issue?
Not that you asked, but here are some changes to Israel from the Bill Evans
version:
Head:
|Dm add9 |Dm#5add9 |Dm6/9 |D7#9 |
|Gm |C7 |Dm7 Em7 |Fmaj7 |
|Bb6/9 or 13 |Eb13 A7b9|Dm F13|Bb13 Eb13||
Solos:
|Dm add9 |Dm#5add9 |Dm6/9 |D7#9 |
|Gm7 |C7 |Fmaj7 |Bbmaj7 |
|Em9b5 |Eb9 |Dm |Eb9 ||
Obviously the solo changes are approximate, since Bill and Scott LaFaro
imply various harmonies during the solo. For example, Bill often plays F6/9
instead of Fmaj7, and the Eb9 as A7altered.
Here's the coda, which starts on the last two measures of the last head:
|Dm6/9 F9 |E7#9 Eb7#9|D7#9 G13|C7#9 B9|
|E7#5 |Eb9 |Dm11 ||
--
Clay Moore
Let others praise ancient times; I am glad I was born in these.-- Ovid (43
B.C.-A.D. 18)
Michael Magyar
jcro...@octavian.ics.uci.edu,NNTP1 writes:
>>I have been working on the tune Israel, by John Carisi. When I play
>>over it, I find myself converging on a harmonic minor based approach
>>most of the time. This happens to me commonly when I also play
>>Nardis. Upon further comparison, I hear melodic and form similarities
>>as well. I thought someone, somewhere, posted that Nardis was actually
>>a Carisi tune. Can someone recap this issue?
>>
According to Ben Sidran, in his 'Talking Jazz', Miles wrote the tune.
He asked Miles about it in an interview stating that Nardis was Sidran
backwards. Miles, who was famous for plays on names found that
interesting.
Mike
Chuck Nessa
I always thought Neb was backwards.
CN
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <msg17077.thr-e...@discovery.umeres.maine.edu> Michael...@discovery.umeres.maine.edu (Michael Magyar) writes:
>
>According to Ben Sidran, in his 'Talking Jazz', Miles wrote the tune.
>He asked Miles about it in an interview stating that Nardis was Sidran
>backwards. Miles, who was famous for plays on names found that
>interesting.
Miles was also famous for claiming other people's compositions
as his own. When he brought Benny Carter's "When Lights Are Low"
into the studio he claimed he had written it, although he didn't
even know the bridge.
Folks have been speculating that Bill Evans or John Carisi
wrote Nardis, but Evans never claimed it (although he did
claim partial credit for Flamenco Sketches and Blue In Green),
and I haven't heard any evidence that Carisi wrote it either.
It's pure speculation.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
Here's the collective wisdom on what Miles plagiarized from whom.
The list contains a few that aren't in the web faq cited earlier:
So What--from Shorty Rogers' "Dance Espresso", which itself comes from
Tchaikovsky's "Coffee Dance"from the Nutcracker Suite; also, Ahmad Jamal's
record of Gould's "Pavanne", particularly Ray Crawford's solo
Four--Eddie Cleanhead Vinson
Tune Up--Eddie Vinson
Solar--Chuck Wayne's "Sunny"
Nardis--John Carisi (weak speculation; no evidence)
Nefertiti--Wayne Shorter
Milestones--John Lewis
Little Willie Leaps--John Lewis
Serpent's Tooth--Jimmy Heath
Blue In Green--Miles wrote the first two chords, Bill Evans the rest.
Flamenco Sketches--Bill Evans claimed partial credit for this one too.
Donna Lee--Charlie Parker got the credit; Miles probably wrote it based
on licks he took from Fats Navarro's solo on "Ice Freezes Red"
Half-Nelson--written by Miles based on licks he took from Fats
Navarro's solo(s) on Ladybird
Dig--Jackie McLean's "Donna"
Miles's autobiography also plagiarizes from Jack Chambers' biography.
The provenance of So What, Donna Lee, and Half-Nelson has been established
through musicological analysis. The provenance of Nardis is often debated,and
there is no clear answer. All of the other attributions are made according to
the claims of the composers listed.
According to one account that I read, when Miles first brought Benny
Carter's "When Lights Are Low" to a recording session, he claimed that
he was the composer. However, he couldn't remember the bridge to what
was supposedly his own tune, so he created a new one by repeating the
"A" section, transposed up a fourth.
Paul Wetmore
Jeremy Michael Crosbie wrote:
>
> In article <6cmr1p$n...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>,
> JFR <jre...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >
> >over it, I find myself converging on a harmonic minor based approach
> >most of the time. This happens to me commonly when I also play
> >Nardis. Upon further comparison, I hear melodic and form similarities
> >as well. I thought someone, somewhere, posted that Nardis was actually
> >a Carisi tune. Can someone recap this issue?
> >
> >John R>
>
> According to the liner notes of Mike Stern's "Standards (an other songs)"
> CD, "Nardis" was written by Miles Davis.
Love the tune . . . .
I've heard that Nardis is actually the reverse spelling of
Ben Sidran's last name!
Chuck Nessa
My friend Ben was a toddler at the time.
CN
Larry Lewicki
There was a Keyboard interview with Orrin Keepnews in the mid 80s.
Orrin claimed that Bill Evans said Miles wrote Nardis. Since Bill
has probably recorded that tune more than anyone else - and knew
Miles, I figured that is the real truth.
The Keyboard was one that had Miles on the cover.
An aside - there's a story that I heard about Keith Jarrett winning
a MacArthur genius grant. Miles asked Keith "so - what's it like
to be a genius." Jarrett replied something like "oh about the same
as it has ever been."
L^2
In article <msg17077.thr-e...@discovery.umeres.maine.edu>, Michael...@discovery.umeres.maine.edu (Michael Magyar) writes:
<:>jcro...@octavian.ics.uci.edu,NNTP1 writes:
<:>>>I have been working on the tune Israel, by John Carisi. When I play
<:>>>over it, I find myself converging on a harmonic minor based approach
<:>>>most of the time. This happens to me commonly when I also play
<:>>>Nardis. Upon further comparison, I hear melodic and form similarities
<:>>>as well. I thought someone, somewhere, posted that Nardis was actually
<:>>>a Carisi tune. Can someone recap this issue?
<:>>>
<:>
<:>According to Ben Sidran, in his 'Talking Jazz', Miles wrote the tune.
<:>He asked Miles about it in an interview stating that Nardis was Sidran
<:>backwards. Miles, who was famous for plays on names found that
<:>interesting.
<:>
<:>Mike
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Larry Lewicki | National Semiconductor |Opinions are mine and in *NO* |
*l...@galaxy.nsc.com | Santa Clara, CA |way represent National Semi. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael Fitzgerald
On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 02:11:18 GMT, l...@galaxy.NOSPAM.nsc.com (Larry
Lewicki) wrote:
>There was a Keyboard interview with Orrin Keepnews in the mid 80s.
>Orrin claimed that Bill Evans said Miles wrote Nardis. Since Bill
>has probably recorded that tune more than anyone else - and knew
>Miles, I figured that is the real truth.
Thanks for referencing this. I dug out the issue and here's the exact
quote:
"I always felt that Bill must have had a hand in writing "Nardis,"
which through the years was a permanent part of his trio repertoire,
but he insisted it was entirely Miles' work. On the other hand, Davis
originally claimed sole authorship of the now standard "Blue In
Green," but Evans rather angrily instructed me to list him as a
co-writer on the jacket of his first recording of the tune."
Keyboard, October 1987, pp. 93-96
Miles Davis: His Keyboardists Past
by Orrin Keepnews
Mike
Marc Sabatella
l...@galaxy.NOSPAM.nsc.com wrote:
>There was a Keyboard interview with Orrin Keepnews in the mid 80s.
>Orrin claimed that Bill Evans said Miles wrote Nardis. Since Bill
>has probably recorded that tune more than anyone else - and knew
>Miles, I figured that is the real truth.
Well, it certainly establishes that Bill didn't write it, but it doesn't
have much bearing on Carisi's claim (or one made on his behalf). If
Miles stole the tune, he certainly wasn't going to tell Bill Evans about
it; it makes sense that Bill would be fooled just like everyone else.
If Miles was going to lie about it, I'd expect him to lie
consistently. So he would have lied to Ben Sidran as well. If this is
indeed what happened; I'm certainly not saying it is. Just that I don't
find these to be convincing as proof in the face of claims that he stole
it. But of course, those claims are themselves hardly convincing, so my
default assumption is still that Miles wrote it.
Paul M. Ramey
For what it's worth...
On the video "The Bill Evans Trio: Jazz at the Maintenance Shop" (on
Rhapsody Films #9034), Bill introduces "Nardis" as being a tune that
Miles Davis wrote for a '50s Cannonball Adderley session (on Riverside).
Paul (pmr...@lex.infi.net)
JFR
In <6cnafo$e...@octavian.ics.uci.edu> jcro...@octavian.ics.uci.edu
(Jeremy Michael Crosbie) writes:
>
>In article <6cmr1p$n...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>,
>JFR <jre...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>over it, I find myself converging on a harmonic minor based approach
>>most of the time. This happens to me commonly when I also play
>>Nardis. Upon further comparison, I hear melodic and form
similarities
>>as well. I thought someone, somewhere, posted that Nardis was
actually
>>a Carisi tune. Can someone recap this issue?
>>
>>John R>
>
>According to the liner notes of Mike Stern's "Standards (an other
songs)"
>CD, "Nardis" was written by Miles Davis.
>
>
There are many tunes "officially" credited to Miles that are fairly
well known not to be written by him. This is one of them. Perhaps
someone could recap all the other ones sometime.
The bigger question is whether it is Bill Evans or John Carisi, and I
am pretty sure, but looking for verification that it is Carisi. Listen
to the two tunes and you will hear the similarity (as in composing
style).
John R>
roo7flat5
I recall,sometime in the 80's, hearing Ben Sidran hosting an NPR-
sourced series with various prominent jazz artists listening to and
commenting on recordings. It was a fine series,broadly -based,conducted with
enthusiasm,educative,yet still entertaining. Is he still involved in these
kinds of jazz "education" projects?
Chuck Nessa wrote in message <34F3823B...@earthlink.net>...
>My friend Ben was a toddler at the time.
>CN
Michael Fitzgerald
On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:30:05 -0500, "Paul M. Ramey"
<pmr...@lex.infi.net> wrote:
>On the video "The Bill Evans Trio: Jazz at the Maintenance Shop" (on
>Rhapsody Films #9034), Bill introduces "Nardis" as being a tune that
>Miles Davis wrote for a '50s Cannonball Adderley session (on Riverside).
Thanks for this information. The recent stuff will go into the rmb FAQ
and (at least in my view) this matter is settled.
Miles Davis wrote Nardis.
Mike
Ron Hearn
Just to finish off the "Nardis" thread, the Cannonball LP on which Nardis
is played is "Portrait of Cannonball" (Riverside 269/OJC 361, 7/1/58).
Orrin Keepnews' liner notes state "...and finally the Oriental-flavored
Nardis, one of Miles Davis' rather infrequent compositions, specifically
written for Cannonball's Riverside debut."
Too bad that Miles never recorded it. Does anyone know if he ever played it
in a live performance? I can try to imagine what it might sound like with
his Harmon Mute sketching out the theme. Oh well....
Ron Hearn
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
Chuck Nessa wrote in message <34F3823B...@earthlink.net>...
>My friend Ben was a toddler at the time.
A toddler, and he was already working Miles. What an operator!
Joshua H. Gordis
> >> I've heard that Nardis is actually the reverse spelling of
> >> Ben Sidran's last name!
Could that actually be true ?!?!?
Jeff Volkman
> Ben Sidran's father may have known Miles, and if indeed the tune is
> named after a Sidran, it would be the elder. I can't remember the
> details, but it seems that I heard somewhere that Sidran the elder was a
> newspaper reporter or something, and did know Miles.
> jack
Yes, I've heard that story as well. Can't remember where though.
Michael Mann
> Here's the collective wisdom on what Miles plagiarized from whom.
> The list contains a few that aren't in the web faq cited earlier:
>
> So What--from Shorty Rogers' "Dance Espresso", which itself comes from
> Tchaikovsky's "Coffee Dance"from the Nutcracker Suite; also, Ahmad Jamal's
> record of Gould's "Pavanne", particularly Ray Crawford's solo
> Four--Eddie Cleanhead Vinson
> Tune Up--Eddie Vinson
> Solar--Chuck Wayne's "Sunny"
> Nardis--John Carisi (weak speculation; no evidence)
> Nefertiti--Wayne Shorter
> Milestones--John Lewis
> Little Willie Leaps--John Lewis
> Serpent's Tooth--Jimmy Heath
> Blue In Green--Miles wrote the first two chords, Bill Evans the rest.
> Flamenco Sketches--Bill Evans claimed partial credit for this one too.
> Donna Lee--Charlie Parker got the credit; Miles probably wrote it based
> on licks he took from Fats Navarro's solo on "Ice Freezes Red"
> Half-Nelson--written by Miles based on licks he took from Fats
> Navarro's solo(s) on Ladybird
> Dig--Jackie McLean's "Donna"
>
> Miles's autobiography also plagiarizes from Jack Chambers' biography.
>
I read the autobio just after finishing Chamber's book. The similarity
is hard to miss.
On your list above, I wouldn't include Nefertiti. My copy of that record
clearly gives credit to Wayne Shorter as author, as do every fake book
I've seen it in.
--Michael Mann
Alex Tobias
Michael Mann <ma...@uwyo.edu> wrote:
>> Here's the collective wisdom on what Miles plagiarized from whom.
>> The list contains a few that aren't in the web faq cited earlier:
>>
>I read the autobio just after finishing Chamber's book. The similarity
>is hard to miss.
>On your list above, I wouldn't include Nefertiti. My copy of that record
>clearly gives credit to Wayne Shorter as author, as do every fake book
>I've seen it in.
>--Michael Mann
This whole thing regarding Mile's purported plagarism is extremely
perplexing to me. Still trying to figure out why a player of Mile's
caliber would steal from others. Can't understand what the motivation
would have been...was it the $$$?, lust for fame?, etc...
If anyone knows of any facts or has theories on the matter please
elaborate...
Matt Snyder
Somebody wrote:
>> Here's the collective wisdom on what Miles plagiarized from whom.
>> The list contains a few that aren't in the web faq cited earlier:
>> Nardis--John Carisi (weak speculation; no evidence)
I've never heard of Carisi being credited with this tune, and if this
is just weak speculation without evidence, why are you mentioning it?
>> Blue In Green--Miles wrote the first two chords, Bill Evans the rest.
What is your source for this?
>> Flamenco Sketches--Bill Evans claimed partial credit for this one too.
This can be proved, since, as it says on the FAQ, the Evans
introduction to the tune is lifted directly from his earlier
arrangement of "Some Other Time."
_____________________________________
Matt Snyder
msn...@interactive.net
http://www.interactive.net/~msnyder
Marc Sabatella
msn...@interactive.net wrote:
>>> Nardis--John Carisi (weak speculation; no evidence)
>
>I've never heard of Carisi being credited with this tune, and if this
>is just weak speculation without evidence, why are you mentioning it?
It was a little more than weak speculation. As I recall, it was a
couple of years ago in rec.music.bluenote that someone posted this
claim. Wehn pressed for details, it seems the person said they knew
Carisi, or knew someone who knew him, and that Carisi had actually
claimed authorship. But Dejanews doesn't go back that far. Strongest
claim I could find was from Skip Elliot Bowman, who seemed sure of it,
but gave no evidence.
>>> Blue In Green--Miles wrote the first two chords, Bill Evans the rest.
>
>What is your source for this?
Bill Evans is alleged to have claimed something very much like this
himself. Actually, I recall it was something more like Miles wrote
the first line of melody then handed it to Bill and said, "here, do
something with this". Of course, I haven't actually heard Bill
claim that, so it is still only hearsay.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
>msn...@interactive.net wrote:
>>>> Nardis--John Carisi (weak speculation; no evidence)
>>
>>I've never heard of Carisi being credited with this tune, and if this
>>is just weak speculation without evidence, why are you mentioning it?
>
>It was a little more than weak speculation. As I recall, it was a
>couple of years ago in rec.music.bluenote that someone posted this
>claim. Wehn pressed for details, it seems the person said they knew
>Carisi, or knew someone who knew him, and that Carisi had actually
>claimed authorship. But Dejanews doesn't go back that far.
I was just trying to offer a comprehensive rendition of the competing
claims around Miles's alleged plagiarism.
>>>> Blue In Green--Miles wrote the first two chords, Bill Evans the rest.
>>What is your source for this?
From the sleeve notes of "Spring Leaves", a 1976 repackaging of
'Portrait in Jazz' and 'Explorations' issued on Milestone
Records, Bill Evans, in an interview with Conrad Silvert, said of BiG:
"And actually it's my tune, even though Miles is credited as
co-writer for reasons only he understands. One day at Miles'
appartment, he wrote on some manuscript paper the symbols
for G-minor and A-augmented and he said 'What would you do
with that?' I didn't really know, but I went home and wrote
'Blue in Green'"
JFR
Tom,
Thanks for this interesting summary. I think this about covers what I
have heard too. I guess no matter what, Miles added a lot to these
tunes and got them exposure.
John R>
In <6ctut8$q...@news.jhu.edu> tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu () writes:
>
>
>Here's the collective wisdom on what Miles plagiarized from whom.
>The list contains a few that aren't in the web faq cited earlier:
>
>
>So What--from Shorty Rogers' "Dance Espresso", which itself comes from
>Tchaikovsky's "Coffee Dance"from the Nutcracker Suite; also, Ahmad
Jamal's
>record of Gould's "Pavanne", particularly Ray Crawford's solo
>Four--Eddie Cleanhead Vinson
>Tune Up--Eddie Vinson
>Solar--Chuck Wayne's "Sunny"
>Nardis--John Carisi (weak speculation; no evidence)
>Nefertiti--Wayne Shorter
>Milestones--John Lewis
>Little Willie Leaps--John Lewis
>Serpent's Tooth--Jimmy Heath
>Blue In Green--Miles wrote the first two chords, Bill Evans the rest.
>Flamenco Sketches--Bill Evans claimed partial credit for this one too.
>Donna Lee--Charlie Parker got the credit; Miles probably wrote it
based
>on licks he took from Fats Navarro's solo on "Ice Freezes Red"
>Half-Nelson--written by Miles based on licks he took from Fats
>Navarro's solo(s) on Ladybird
>Dig--Jackie McLean's "Donna"
>
>Miles's autobiography also plagiarizes from Jack Chambers' biography.
>
Paul M. Ramey
Jack Woker wrote:
>
> Ben Sidran's father may have known Miles, and if indeed the tune is
> named after a Sidran, it would be the elder. I can't remember the
> details, but it seems that I heard somewhere that Sidran the elder was a
> newspaper reporter or something, and did know Miles.
> jack
I've always wondered if Bill Evans actually *named* the tune, since Bill
was fond of titles like that (i.e. "Re:Person I Knew"). Regardless, it's
clear that as far as Evans was concerned, Miles wrote the tune.
I read somewhere that when Sidran mentioned to Miles about "Nardis"
being "Sidran" backwards, Miles didn't know what he was talking about.
Paul (pmr...@lex.infi.net)
Jack Woker
Paul M. Ramey wrote:
>
Jack Woker wrote:
>
> I read somewhere that when Sidran mentioned to Miles about "Nardis"
> being "Sidran" backwards, Miles didn't know what he was talking about.
This was in an interview that I've heard on tape, possibly broadcast at
some point. Sidran asks Miles about this, and Miles' response is a
bemused (and noncommital) "no kiddin'?"
jack
Paul Craig Sanwald
Paul Wetmore (pwet...@mtest.teradyne.com) wrote:
: Ben Sidran's last name!
I could be mistaken, but I think a Nardis is a type of flower.
Gary Milliken
>> I read somewhere that when Sidran mentioned to Miles about "Nardis"
>> being "Sidran" backwards, Miles didn't know what he was talking about.
>
>This was in an interview that I've heard on tape, possibly broadcast at
>some point. Sidran asks Miles about this, and Miles' response is a
>bemused (and noncommital) "no kiddin'?"
There is a book now available that reproduces a bunch of Sidran's interviews
including this one with Miles, and Jack's description of the exchange is
accurate. I don't think it says anything about Miles' reasons for naming
the tune - he could have forgotten (since at the time of the interview, it
had been a lot of years since the origin of "Nardis") or he could have just
been secretive. For that matter, I don't think it even indicates whether
Miles wrote the tune. We'll never know.
GM
Chuck Nessa
Just like Robert Simpson's 9th string quartet....based on a Haydn theme,
itself a palindrome.
CN
Barry Jones wrote:
> On 3 Mar 1998 00:58:50 GMT, jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
> >
> >BTW, Airegin is Nigeria backwards and Live-Evil is the same back/forth
> >(what's that called again).
> >
> >John R>
> A palindrome.
>
> Barry
> --
> __________________________________________________
> http://west.poly.edu/~bjones Check the VRML virtual worlds.
> First door on the right, bring your own snorkel!
Jim Brown
On 3 Mar 1998 00:58:50 GMT, JFR wrote:
>BTW, Airegin is Nigeria backwards and Live-Evil is the same back/forth
Are you related to Harry Carey?
Jim Brown
Chicago
Mark Cleary
JFR wrote:
>
> In <34F33A...@mtest.teradyne.com> Paul Wetmore
> <pwet...@mtest.teradyne.com> writes:
> >
> >Jeremy Michael Crosbie wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <6cmr1p$n...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>,
> >> JFR <jre...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >I have been working on the tune Israel, by John Carisi. When I
> play
> >> >over it, I find myself converging on a harmonic minor based
> approach
> >> >most of the time. This happens to me commonly when I also play
> >> >Nardis. Upon further comparison, I hear melodic and form
> similarities
> >> >as well. I thought someone, somewhere, posted that Nardis was
> actually
> >> >a Carisi tune. Can someone recap this issue?
> >> >
> >> >Thanks.
> >> >John R>
> >>
> >> According to the liner notes of Mike Stern's "Standards (an other
> songs)"
> >> CD, "Nardis" was written by Miles Davis.
> >
> >
>
> pointed out that Sidran was a baby when the tune came out. Miles /
> Evans / Carisi probably never knew of him anyways.
>
> BTW, Airegin is Nigeria backwards and Live-Evil is the same back/forth
>
> John R>
Harry left us a week ago and now I' ll put in a word and the Cubs can
hire you as the new broadcaster. This has potential. A dire hard Cub Fan
I am.
--
Mark Cleary makes music on the finest guitars made.
" HOLLENBECK GUITARS the for the ultimate in tone and playability."
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <34F54F...@me.nps.navy.milX> Xgo...@me.nps.navy.milX writes:
>> >> I've heard that Nardis is actually the reverse spelling of
>> >> Ben Sidran's last name!
>
Don't know--I'll have to type it into my reverse-spelling
program to find out and then get back to you.
JFR
In <34F33A...@mtest.teradyne.com> Paul Wetmore
<pwet...@mtest.teradyne.com> writes:
>
>Jeremy Michael Crosbie wrote:
>>
>> In article <6cmr1p$n...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>,
>> JFR <jre...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >I have been working on the tune Israel, by John Carisi. When I
play
>> >over it, I find myself converging on a harmonic minor based
approach
>> >most of the time. This happens to me commonly when I also play
>> >Nardis. Upon further comparison, I hear melodic and form
similarities
>> >as well. I thought someone, somewhere, posted that Nardis was
actually
>> >a Carisi tune. Can someone recap this issue?
>> >
>> >Thanks.
>> >John R>
>>
>> According to the liner notes of Mike Stern's "Standards (an other
songs)"
>> CD, "Nardis" was written by Miles Davis.
>
>Love the tune . . . .
>
>Ben Sidran's last name!
I think that is pure coincidence based on a few observations. C.Nessa
Barry Jones
On 3 Mar 1998 00:58:50 GMT, jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>
>BTW, Airegin is Nigeria backwards and Live-Evil is the same back/forth
>(what's that called again).
>
>John R>
Dave Holmes
Chuck Nessa wrote:
>
> Just like Robert Simpson's 9th string quartet....based on a Haydn theme,
> itself a palindrome.
> CN
I'd buy the recording and listen to it -
If I had a hi-fi.
-Dave
Barry Jones
On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:55:28 -0500, Chuck Nessa <cne...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
>Just like Robert Simpson's 9th string quartet....based on a Haydn theme,
>itself a palindrome.
>CN
>
That's interesting. If you build up rhythmic patterns from simple
repeating elements, such as a repeated beat every 3 quarter notes
combined with a repeated beat every 4 quarter notes, you can create
complex rhythm patterns, all of which are symmetric (palindromic).
Schillinger's composition method is based on these patterns, which he
interprets as rhythm patterns, melody patterns, harmony changes, etc.
He also holds that composers of music that become classics, or have
universal appeal consist of these kinds of patterns. Haydn, you say,
eh?
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
>On 3 Mar 1998 00:58:50 GMT, JFR wrote:
>
>>BTW, Airegin is Nigeria backwards and Live-Evil is the same back/forth
Miles also cut a tune called "Selim", which my sources tell me is
"Miles" spelled backwards. I wonder how they did it back then without
the aid of reverse-spelling programs? Probably took those old mainframes
all day to figure out Selim.
Rick Stone
>Paul Wetmore (pwet...@mtest.teradyne.com) wrote:
>: Ben Sidran's last name!
>
>I could be mistaken, but I think a Nardis is a type of flower.
This whole discussion's got me thinking about writing a tune called
"Sidran" (it's "Nardis" spelled backwards you know) ;-)
--
/=====================================================\
| Rick Stone | Visit my "Jazz Guitar Homepage"|
| jaz...@inch.com | Lots of links to other guitar |
| | and music related sites! |
| 718/972-1220 | http://www.inch.com/~jazzand |
\=====================================================/
Marc Sabatella
jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>I think that is pure coincidence based on a few observations. C.Nessa
>pointed out that Sidran was a baby when the tune came out. Miles /
>Evans / Carisi probably never knew of him anyways.
Actually, it is likely Miles did - he was apparently knew Ben's father.
Perhaps Evans and/or Carisi did as well. Of course, it is still
possible someone else wrote the tune but Miles *named* it.
Giri
> > >> I've heard that Nardis is actually the reverse spelling of
Back up your idle speculation!
..Giri
--
e-mail: giyengar "at" ford "dot" com
JFR
In <34F54F...@me.nps.navy.milX> "Joshua H. Gordis"
<Xgo...@me.nps.navy.milX> writes:
>
>> >> I've heard that Nardis is actually the reverse spelling of
>> >> Ben Sidran's last name!
>
>
That's obviously coincidence only. Sidran would love to believe it was
for him. Sorry Ben, but our friend Chuck N told us it can't be. But
dream on.
John R>
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <6dfnde$d...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> bjon...@acm.org writes:
>On 3 Mar 1998 00:58:50 GMT, jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>>
>>BTW, Airegin is Nigeria backwards and Live-Evil is the same back/forth
>>
Of course, Lennie Tristano was the visionary who innovated the use
of palindromes in jazz. His recording of "Wow" precedes Miles by
several decades.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <6dg7ja$2...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> bjon...@acm.org writes:
>On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:55:28 -0500, Chuck Nessa <cne...@earthlink.net>
>wrote:
>
>>Just like Robert Simpson's 9th string quartet....based on a Haydn theme,
>>itself a palindrome.
>>CN
>>
>universal appeal consist of these kinds of patterns. Haydn, you say,
>eh?
Ever check out JS Bach's Table Music? It's one piece of sheet music for
two players. You put it on a table, and have the two players on opposite
sides reading it. They're each playing the same thing, except upside
down from the other. It actually sounds like Bach, although it's not
going to make anyone forget the B minor Mass or anything.
JFR
Yes. I recall the posting that Marc is referring to below. It was
pretty compelling evidence and when you listen to the tune you can hear
more resemblence to "Israel" by carisi than any other M.D. tune
(supposedly composed by Miles).
I think the claim that Bill Evans said Miles brought it to a session
for cannonball is not convincing. Miles could have still stolen it and
convinced Evans it was his tune. That would be my guess. Not that
miles was a manipulator........(yes)
John R>
In <6d7bfe$p3g$1...@cactus.verinet.com> ma...@outsideshore.com (Marc
Sabatella) writes:
>
>msn...@interactive.net wrote:
>
>>>> Nardis--John Carisi (weak speculation; no evidence)
>>
>>I've never heard of Carisi being credited with this tune, and if this
>>is just weak speculation without evidence, why are you mentioning it?
>
>It was a little more than weak speculation. As I recall, it was a
>couple of years ago in rec.music.bluenote that someone posted this
>claim. Wehn pressed for details, it seems the person said they knew
>Carisi, or knew someone who knew him, and that Carisi had actually
>claimed authorship. But Dejanews doesn't go back that far. Strongest
>claim I could find was from Skip Elliot Bowman, who seemed sure of it,
>but gave no evidence.
>
>>>> Blue In Green--Miles wrote the first two chords, Bill Evans the
rest.
>>
>>What is your source for this?
>
>Bill Evans is alleged to have claimed something very much like this
>himself. Actually, I recall it was something more like Miles wrote
>the first line of melody then handed it to Bill and said, "here, do
>something with this". Of course, I haven't actually heard Bill
>claim that, so it is still only hearsay.
>
Barry Jones
Is there something I can read about Tristano's composition methods?
I'd like to see if there's a connection to Schillinger's methods.
Wesley Dick
Sounds like something that Victor Borge would like. Have you
seen/heard him play a piece of music upside down for a few bars and
then suddenly stop, flip the sheet and begin again. Hilarious. I
just bought his tape as advertised on TV. He brings such humor to the
staid classical world.
Wes
Barry Jones
On 4 Mar 1998 05:24:31 GMT, tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu () wrote:
>In article <6dg7ja$2...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> bjon...@acm.org writes:
>>On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 20:55:28 -0500, Chuck Nessa <cne...@earthlink.net>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Just like Robert Simpson's 9th string quartet....based on a Haydn theme,
>>>itself a palindrome.
>>>CN
>>>
>>He also holds that composers of music that become classics, or have
>>universal appeal consist of these kinds of patterns. Haydn, you say,
>>eh?
>
>Ever check out JS Bach's Table Music? It's one piece of sheet music for
>two players. You put it on a table, and have the two players on opposite
>sides reading it. They're each playing the same thing, except upside
>down from the other. It actually sounds like Bach, although it's not
>going to make anyone forget the B minor Mass or anything.
>
Wow! Very interesting. Not only is the symmetry a time symmetry, there
is a pitch symmetry about middle C! It sounds like an idea one would
get if there were 23 children running around the house.<g>
Jeff Volkman
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998, Wesley Dick wrote:
> Sounds like something that Victor Borge would like. Have you
> seen/heard him play a piece of music upside down for a few bars and
> then suddenly stop, flip the sheet and begin again. Hilarious. I
> just bought his tape as advertised on TV. He brings such humor to the
> staid classical world.
I like the toilet plunger/cigar holder bit.
Dave Holmes
That would be Pete Barbuti.
-D.
Matt Snyder
On 26 Feb 1998 03:10:37 GMT, jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>There are many tunes "officially" credited to Miles that are fairly
>well known not to be written by him. This is one of them. Perhaps
>someone could recap all the other ones sometime.
>
This has already been done on the rec.music.bluenote FAQ, which can be
found at:
http://www.interactive.net/~msnyder/rmbfaq.htm
_____________________________________
Matt Snyder
msn...@interactive.net
http://www.interactive.net/~msnyder
JFR
In <6dc94e$k5l$1...@uni00nw.unity.ncsu.edu> pcsa...@unity.ncsu.edu (Paul
Craig Sanwald) writes:
>
>Paul Wetmore (pwet...@mtest.teradyne.com) wrote:
>: Ben Sidran's last name!
>
>I could be mistaken, but I think a Nardis is a type of flower.
Are you thinking of Narcissus?
John R>
JFR
In <6dfnde$d...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> bjon...@acm.org (Barry
Jones) writes:
>
>On 3 Mar 1998 00:58:50 GMT, jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>>
>>BTW, Airegin is Nigeria backwards and Live-Evil is the same
back/forth
>>(what's that called again).
>>
>A palindrome.
>
>
>Barry
>--
>__________________________________________________
>http://west.poly.edu/~bjones Check the VRML virtual worlds.
>First door on the right, bring your own snorkel!
Yeah, that's it. Thanks.
John R>
JFR
In <34FC31...@inch.com> Rick Stone <jaz...@inch.com> writes:
>
>>Paul Wetmore (pwet...@mtest.teradyne.com) wrote:
>>: Ben Sidran's last name!
>>
>>I could be mistaken, but I think a Nardis is a type of flower.
>
>"Sidran" (it's "Nardis" spelled backwards you know) ;-)
>--
>/=====================================================\
>| Rick Stone | Visit my "Jazz Guitar Homepage"|
>| jaz...@inch.com | Lots of links to other guitar |
>| | and music related sites! |
>| 718/972-1220 | http://www.inch.com/~jazzand |
>\=====================================================/
>
Looc, tahw a taerg aedi. Or should that be: .aedi taerg a tahw, looc?
John R>
Glen Alpert
In article <6di8pk$1...@news.jhu.edu>, tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu () wrote:
> In article <6dfnde$d...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net> bjon...@acm.org writes:
> >On 3 Mar 1998 00:58:50 GMT, jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
> >>
> >>BTW, Airegin is Nigeria backwards and Live-Evil is the same back/forth
> >>(what's that called again).
> >>
> >A palindrome.
>
> Of course, Lennie Tristano was the visionary who innovated the use
> of palindromes in jazz. His recording of "Wow" precedes Miles by
> several decades.
Several decades?
--Glen
Charles Martin in Hong Kong
> I thought someone, somewhere, posted that Nardis was actually
>a Carisi tune. Can someone recap this issue?
That's what I love about RMB. A simple question yields, at this
writing, 55 replies, including some interesting lore (and for once, no
fights).
May the discussions (and the music) go on forever.
CHelman357
I'm pretty sure that Miles penned that one. It's a great tune.
GSBubs
On what Miles' album(s) does Nardis appear?
Jack Woker
GSBubs wrote:
>
> On what Miles' album(s) does Nardis appear?
None, he never recorded it, which is one of the foundations of
speculation as to whether or not he did write it. In addition to
numerous Bill Evans recordings of "Nardis" over the years, the original
recording was on Cannonball Adderley's "Portrait of Cannonball", which
features Bill Evans, and was recorded in 1958.
jack
Chuck Nessa
I think it's on the Prestige record called "Stealin'".
CN
Michele & Pascal Ferret
Ben Sidran (another palindrome)
JFR
Very interesting. My vote still goes to Carisi, based on a previous
post from over a year ago, that was very convincing and not just
circumstancial.
BTW, can someone remind me about who Carisi was and what he did (or
does)?
Also, I hate to bring this up again, but can someone repost or email me
the summary of what tunes Miles claimed, are probably not his and who
the suspected "real" composer is?
Thanks.
John R>
In <350D5F...@ix.netcom.com> Jack Woker <ste...@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>
>GSBubs wrote:
>>
>> On what Miles' album(s) does Nardis appear?
>