Your Top 20 essential avant-garde jazz albums?
3243
experimental, creative, or avant-garde jazz, what would you say are
the 20 such albums to own a copy of?
Alan Young
<greatu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Wow, 20?
I would grant that the experience *in general* of hearing avant-garde
jazz is "essential" to a well-rounded appreciation of music, but to say
that certain recordings are "essential" to the appreciation of
avant-garde jazz seems like a more dubious proposition.
For one thing, it's a form of expression that i've always found more
effective in a live setting; it doesn't hold up so well to mere audio
recording. And when you do find something that you like, it doesn't
necessarily have the kind of musical structure on it to define it as
something that needs to owned (rather than just heard once), or that
someone else would like for the same reasons, or that would distinguish
the experience of hearing the best 10 albums (if you could select such)
from anything on the *next* best 10.
That said, my list would include...
Ornette Coleman, Shape of Jazz to Come
Don Cherry, Complete Communion
Albert Ayler, Spiritual Unity
something by Sun Ra
something by Cecil Taylor
... and that's enough for me, personally. I've made serious efforts to
hear late Coltrane and Art Ensemble of Chicago, but they just don't
appeal to me.
--
Alan
http://www.hummingbear.net/~aayoung/Jazz/jazz.html
I dreamed of a life that was pure and true
I dreamed of a job only I could do...
---Monk's Dream
Steve Solomon
Starting in September KCSM in San Mateo, Calif. will be launching a new
program featuring the Avant-Garde on Thursdays at 10:00PM.
Steve
Alan Young
Steve Solomon <Stev...@webtv.net> wrote:
That's great! I will be sure to tune in, and see if more exposure
changes my opinion.
Ben Sharvy
1. Sam Rivers. Contrasts.
2. Steve Lacy. Morning Joy (Raps is great too, but I don't think it
was released on CD)
3. Lennie Tristano--any compilation with "Digression" and "Intuition"
4. Paul Bley. Annette.
5. John Surman. Adventure Playground.
6. Cecil Taylor...mmm, maybe Unit Structures (Penguin likes it) or
Jazz Advance
7. Eric Dolphy. Out to Lunch
8. Ornette Coleman. Science Fiction , if it was released on CD, else
Shape of Jazz
9. Roscoe Mitchel. An Interesting Breakfast Conversation (this is on
CD, right?)
10. Art Ensemble of Chicago. Urban Bushmen or Nice Guys
11. John Coltrane. Love Supreme.
12. Dewey Redman. Tarik
13. Power Tools. Strange Meeting
14. Evan Parker... hmm, not sure, maybe Conic Sections
15. Anthony Braxton. For Alto Saxophone
16. Sun Ra. Jazz in Silhouette
17. Pat Martino. Alive! or Consciousness
18. Pierre Dorge. New Jungle Orchestra
19. Old & New Dreams. Playing
But, I've come full circle on avante-garde in jazz. When I first
started listening to jazz, naturally I liked the melodic stuff. Later,
I was really into free jazz. Twenty years later, I find I hardly ever
want to listen to the free stuff anymore. Ultimately, you hear the
distinctive personality of the musician best when it is somewhat
bounded by musical conventions.
Alan Young
Sharvy <bsh...@mac.com> wrote:
> 11. John Coltrane. Love Supreme.
This is avant-garde? Well, I guess the big problem here is one of
defining the category. A Love Supreme was avant-garde when it was first
created, of course, but I would think of it has having drifted into the
mainstream--that is, redefined the mainstream around itself--since
then.
> Twenty years later, I find I hardly ever
> want to listen to the free stuff anymore. Ultimately, you hear the
> distinctive personality of the musician best when it is somewhat
> bounded by musical conventions.
That describes my experience, exactly! Which is why I questioned, in an
earlier post, why you'd need to have those 20 albums.
AntCol8
From: greatu...@hotmail.com (3243)
Date: Tue, Aug 26, 2003 10:25 PM
Message-id: <a9770349.03082...@posting.google.com>
Those of you who are into the various forms of what is called
experimental, creative, or avant-garde jazz, what would you say are
the 20 such albums to own a copy of?
1) Sound Roscoe Mitchell
2) Reese and the Smooth Ones Art Ensemble
3) Dortmund 1976 Anthony Braxton
4) Machine Gun Peter Brotzmann
5) For Alto Anthony Braxton
6) People In Sorrow Art Ensemble
7) Mixed Cecil Taylor Unit
8) Spiritual Unity Albert Ayler
9) Live at Golden Circle Ornette Coleman
10) Locus Solus John Zorn
11) Performance 1979 Anthony Braxton
12) Coon Bid'ness Julius Hemphill
13) Live in Concert Arthur Blythe
14) Of Human Feelings Ornette Coleman
15) 1961 Jimmy Giuffre 3
16) Classic Guide to Strategy John Zorn
17) Solo Leo Smith
18) Evan Parker - Barry Guy - Paul Lytton
19) Get Up With It Miles Davis
20) Conquistador Cecil Taylor
note: w/"first generation" Free Jazz, I only put in the records where I
particularly felt a link w/ the later "Avant Garde" - for me, the Ornette
Atlantics, etc. are already canonical - not "experimental"
>>
Nick
> Those of you who are into the various forms of what is called
> experimental, creative, or avant-garde jazz, what would you say are
> the 20 such albums to own a copy of?
I'm not generally an avant garde jazz fan, but one artist I'd like to
recommend is Thomas Chapin. He doesn't have the name recognition of
Ornette or Anthony Braxton, but he was a trememdously talented flute
and alto sax player who could go inside or outside with equal ease.
Tragically, he died in 1978 at age 40.
Luca Conti
>Thomas Chapin [...]
>Tragically, he died in 1978 at age 40.
1998 (he was born in 1957).
LC
Todd Tamanend Clark
> Those of you who are into the various forms of what is
> called experimental, creative, or avant-garde jazz, what
Only twenty? Damn, I could easily name a hundred.
(And frequently do!)
But okay, here goes:
Agharta (Miles Davis)
Atlantis (Sun Ra)
Bab-Tizum (The Art Ensemble Of Chicago)
Black Myth/Out In Space (Sun Ra)
Dark Magus (Miles Davis)
Interstellar Space (John Coltrane)
Jazz From Hell (Frank Zappa)
Music From The Fifth World (Jack DeJohnette)
Naked City (John Zorn)
Out To Lunch (Eric Dolphy)
Song X (Pat Metheny & Ornette Coleman)
Stellar Regions (John Coltrane)
The Blue Mask (Lou Reed)
The Complete Science Fiction Sessions (Ornette Coleman)
The Heliocentric Worls Of Sun Ra Volume Two (Sun Ra)
The Magic City (Sun Ra)
THRaKaTTaK (King Crimson)
Trout Mask Replica (Captain Beefheart)
Unit Structures (Cecil Taylor)
Winged Serpent (Cecil Taylor)
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
Primal Pulse (Label-Publisher-Studio)
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- - - -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental, 2002)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
Owls In Obsidian (CD: Instrumental, 2000)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc
- - - -
"For me, that's where the music always has to be: on the edge
in between the known and the unknown, and you have to keep
pushing it towards the unknown, otherwise it and you die."
- - Steve Lacy
mazzolata
Depends on how you define avant-garde, but taking a broad view ...
Mingus - Black Saint & the Sinner Lady, New Tijuana Moods
Dolphy - Out to Lunch
John Coltrane - Live at the Village Vanguard 1961, Love Supreme
Miles Davis - In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew
Andrew Hill - Point of Departure
Bobby Hutcherson - Dialogue
Horace Tapscott - The Dark Tree, The Giant is Awakened
Ornette Coleman - Change of the Century
Don Pullen - New Beginnings
Steve Lacy - Morning Joy
Mal Waldron - Seagulls of Kristiansund
Cecil Taylor - Garden 2
Max Roach - Percussion Bitter Sweet
William Parker - Mayor of Punkville
Matthew Shipp - Pastoral Composure
Booker Little - Out Front
--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Ma chambre a la forme d'une cage
le soleil passe son bras par la fenetre
Glenn Wilson
knowing. We were bandmates on Lionel Hampton, neighbors and compatriots for
many years. He was at my first recording session and I was at his. He was
a tremendously hard worker and was always interested in learning something
new. I was very gratified to see him have the succes he had with Knitting
Factory. A damn shame his career was cut short. He had a lot more music to
give the world. I would second Nick's recommendation. Check him out.
Glenn--
www.jazzmaniac.com
"Nick" <nick...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1d97fb30.0308...@posting.google.com...
Michael Fitzgerald
<greatu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Those of you who are into the various forms of what is called
> experimental, creative, or avant-garde jazz, what would you say are
> the 20 such albums to own a copy of?
Try reading this -
http://users.bestweb.net/~msnyder/rmbfaq.htm
and checking section 5.22 - What are some important "avant-garde" jazz
recordings?
Mike
fitz...@eclipse.net
http://www.eclipse.net/~fitzgera - Gigi Gryce book - ARSC award winner!
http://www.JazzDiscography.com
kurt
Fred Anderson/Kidd Jordan - 2 Days In April
Sun Ra - Black Myth/Out In Space
Cecil Taylor - Akisakala
Kurt
greatu...@hotmail.com (3243) wrote in message news:<a9770349.03082...@posting.google.com>...
JC Martin
news:20030827034407...@mb-m18.aol.com...
That's a very good list---representative of the genre. Maybe I will work on
one myself this evening.
-JC
Ben Sharvy
> In article <d196ca8d.03082...@posting.google.com>, Ben
> Sharvy <bsh...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > 11. John Coltrane. Love Supreme.
>
> This is avant-garde? Well, I guess the big problem here is one of
> defining the category. A Love Supreme was avant-garde when it was first
> created, of course, but I would think of it has having drifted into the
> mainstream--that is, redefined the mainstream around itself--since
> then.
I was mostly considering the work relative to its time. But, I also
waffled back and forth between equating avante-garde with free jazz. I
didn't take the list very seriously, which is probably the only
reasonable way to take it.
rderieux
> experimental, creative, or avant-garde jazz, what would you say are
> the 20 such albums to own a copy of?
I don't think these are more "progresive" rather than avant-garde, but
I really like them (and would like my local jazz station to play more
like it instead of the same B3 and guitar crap they play ALL the
time).
Chico Hamilton - The Outside Within
Charles Tolliver - Live At Slug's
Charles Tolliver - Impact!
Masada - Live in Sevilla
Archie Shepp - Fire Music (+ Attica Blues and The Cry Of My People)
Elvin Jones - Puttin' It Together
Ornette on Tenor
Clifford Jordan - The Glass Bead Game
George Coleman - Amsterdam After Dark
The Giuseppi Logan Quartet
Miles Davis Live At The Plgged Nickel
Anything by Charles Mingus
Rene'
Myth
"Michael Fitzgerald" <fitz...@eclipse.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:50gpkv0ga2cg8mgq2...@4ax.com...
> In article <a9770349.03082...@posting.google.com>, 3243
> <greatu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Those of you who are into the various forms of what is called
> > experimental, creative, or avant-garde jazz, what would you say are
> > the 20 such albums to own a copy of?
>
> Try reading this -
>
> http://users.bestweb.net/~msnyder/rmbfaq.htm
>
> and checking section 5.22 - What are some important "avant-garde" jazz
> recordings?
>
> Mike
Not Found
The requested URL /~msnyder/avantgarde/avant.htm was not found on this
server.
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----
Apache/1.3.9 Ben-SSL/1.37 Server at www.agoron.com Port 80
Myth
"rderieux" <ren...@msn.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:f122fe03.03082...@posting.google.com...
> Rene'
Finally, I was amazed that it took so long before anyone mentioned Mingus,
you and mazzolata did. I mean, he was a major player and trendsetter, not to
say trendbreaker. And the extension or continuation of The Duke.
Take care
Tom
> Rene'
Marc Sabatella
> I would grant that the experience *in general* of hearing avant-garde
> jazz is "essential" to a well-rounded appreciation of music, but to
say
> that certain recordings are "essential" to the appreciation of
> avant-garde jazz seems like a more dubious proposition.
I would sort of agree, but for different reasons. I mean, first of all,
no recording is essential for appreciation of anything. You can
appreciate bebop without ever having heard Charlie Parker, or hard bop
without ever hearing Horace Silver, etc. But you can't really
understand where the music is coming from - how it got where it is -
without these guys. You can say the same for "avant-grade" music. You
don't have to listen to early Ornette Coleman in order to appreciate,
say, Anthony Braxton. But you really have to hear Ornette in order to
understand some of where Braxton was coming from (even if he personally
would point to Konitz and Marsh as his musical progenitors).
There is also the issue that "avant-garde" is such a broad term - much
broader than bebop or hard bop. There are very different and distinct
styles often lumped together under that umbrella. One could legimtately
list 20 of the most essential albums of one or two of those styles and
end up still missing some incredibly significant recordings in other
styles.
Then, as always, there is the distinction between what is of historical
significance and what people tend to find most enjoyable today. For
example, the very first recordings of New Orleans jazz are historically
signficant and were very inflential in their day, but don't make many
lists of people's favorite recordings, even among people who mostly
favor this style.
That said, completely acknowledging the contraditions inherent in
building such a list, here is mine. I am not going to list as many
twenty, simply because after listing an introductory recording or two
for the major styles and artists, the list would quickly need to explode
in size to adequately cover them all.
Lennie Tristano: Digression & Intuition
Arguably the first recorded free jazz, although the extent to which
this was influential on other musicians is continually debated - for
whatever reason, it isn't cited as often as one might expect given the
historical circumstances. BTW, these two are individual tracks
available on compilations; there was no complete "album" of this music.
Cecil Taylor: Jazz Advance
The debut of one of the major figures in this music and one of the
first full length albums to go where it went - still identifiably a jazz
trio & quartet, but very avant-garde in approach.
Ornette Coleman: The Shape of Jazz To Come
Ornette's actual debut sounds so tame today people wonder what the
fuss was about. This is very accessible too, but in ways that perhaps
more clearly demonstrate that Ornette was coming from and going
somewhere a bit different from the norm.
Eric Dolphy: Out To Lunch
Had to include one of those Blue Notes, and this is the one most
people respond to. Blue Note had an affinity for this type of
relatively open sound within the context of a jazz combo
instrumentation, and pushed it to some extent during the 60's, but never
hard enough to be considered a leading voice in this music. Still, the
label and musicians gave the music instant credibility in mainstream
circles.
John Coltrane: Meditations
Just one step further out than A Love Supreme in some ways, but what
a step!
Ornette Coleman: Free Jazz
John Coltrane: Ascension
Either of these suffices to show the most chaotic side of this
music. These were experiments that neither of these folks stuck with,
and are not always considered completely successful, but are included
because of their influential nature.
Albert Ayler: Spiritual Unity
Ayler wasn't on the scene long, but was very influential. This
record shows him working in the relatively traditional framekwork that
Taylor and Coleman started out with, but going in a more emotionally
charged direction with it.
Cecil Taylor: Unit Structures
Cecil trying something more abstract. Not many people seem to like
this one, although everyone seems to agree it was important. I think of
this as being the record that predicated the direction for folks like
the Art Ensemble of Chicago.
Cecil Taylor: Nefertiti / Montmarte
This has been packaged a couple of different ways under different
titles. Anyhow, it is one of the early recordings that showed Taylor
getting further away from jazz conventions, and he's still exploring
some of the same theme decades later.
Dave Holland: Conference Of The Birds
No claims to any particular historical importance here; it's just a
record a lot of people like.
Anthony Braxton, Dortmund 76
I could have listed the breakthrough "For Alto" also, but Dortmund
so well sums up what Braxton is about (at least, when he works in a
still identifiably jazz context) and is generally the most fun to listen
to of his many recordings in many people's opinion, that it gets the
nod.
Already I am starting to degenerate into just listing favorites for no
good reason. I feel I should have an Art Ensemble record on the list,
but I'm not really sure which to recommend - I have mostly later
recordings, and it seems one should start with the source. Roscoe
Mitchell's "Sound" was mentioned by someone else, and it strikes me as a
good choice too. Beyond that, it really starts getting into personal
preferences even more - I love many of the others mentioned by others,
such as Julius Hemphill's "Coon Bidness", but am not sure how to rank
them with any of the other albums I love.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Alan Young
<tomkri...@webspeed.dk> wrote:
> > > Those of you who are into the various forms of what is called
> > > experimental, creative, or avant-garde jazz, what would you say are
> > > the 20 such albums to own a copy of?
> >
> > Try reading this -
> >
> > http://users.bestweb.net/~msnyder/rmbfaq.htm
> >
> > and checking section 5.22 - What are some important "avant-garde" jazz
> > recordings?
> >
> > Mike
>
> Not Found
> The requested URL /~msnyder/avantgarde/avant.htm was not found on this
> server.
Maybe that's exactly the right answer, in a postmodern sort of way. 8-)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
>
> Apache/1.3.9 Ben-SSL/1.37 Server at www.agoron.com Port 80
>
> > fitz...@eclipse.net
> > http://www.eclipse.net/~fitzgera - Gigi Gryce book - ARSC award winner!
> > http://www.JazzDiscography.com
>
>
--
Michael Fitzgerald
wrote:
>Not Found
>The requested URL /~msnyder/avantgarde/avant.htm was not found on this
>server.
Ah - I see: what is typed in the document is correct, but the
underlying link is outdated. Here's the new one:
http://users.bestweb.net/~msnyder/avantgarde/avant.htm
Mike
Guy Berger
Myth wrote:
> Not Found
> The requested URL /~msnyder/avantgarde/avant.htm was not found on this
> server.
Tom,
Try this link:
http://users.bestweb.net/~msnyder/avantgarde/avant.htm
It's a great resource.
Guy
kurt
Albet Ayler - Nuits de La Foundation Maeght
kpn...@yahoo.com (kurt) wrote in message news:<64923d8f.03082...@posting.google.com>...
Glenn Wilson
people working from their LP collection. I remember when CDs came out, I
thought there would a lot of jazz that would never make it to CD, because
there weren't enough people interested in them, but I think it's kind of
been the opposite. It's cheap to put out a CD, especially if you're not
paying the artist royalties, and there is stuff out there on CD that I
wouldn't expect.
Glenn--
www.jazzmaniac.com
"3243" <greatu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a9770349.03082...@posting.google.com...
Pat Buzby
> 8. Ornette Coleman. Science Fiction , if it was released on CD
The Complete Science Fiction Sessions 2-CD set came out on
Columbia a couple years ago. One of the guys from the Bad Plus just
said in Down Beat that this was the best jazz record ever made.
> 9. Roscoe Mitchel. An Interesting Breakfast Conversation (this is on
> CD, right?)
First I've heard of it.
Pat Buzby
Chicago, IL
Myth
"Alan Young" <aay...@sonic.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:270820031028154813%aay...@sonic.net...
> > Not Found
> > The requested URL /~msnyder/avantgarde/avant.htm was not found on this
> > server.
>
> Maybe that's exactly the right answer, in a postmodern sort of way. 8-)
;-))
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Rost
> Interesting lists. I'm wondering how many of these are on CD or are most
> people working from their LP collection.
Almost eveything I've seen mentioned so far has been reissued on CD.
--
Brian Rost
Stargen, Inc.
**********************************************************************
mazzolata
> Glenn Wilson wrote:
>
>> Interesting lists. I'm wondering how many of these are on CD or are most
>> people working from their LP collection.
>
>
> Almost eveything I've seen mentioned so far has been reissued on CD.
>
and some of it subsequently deleted ;-)
Carnak
Trane---awesome.
Carnak.
JM1370
Archie Shepp/Bill Dixon Savoy
Henry Grimes ESP
JC Martin
news:3f4d391...@news.west.earthlink.net...
> Don't forget Charles Gayle & Rashied Ali's Touchin' on
> Trane---awesome.
No doubt indeed. That is a free jazz classic. It wasn't groundbreaking on
any level, but never have I heard two musicians mesh so magically.
I'm gonna listen to that this evening.
-JC
JC Martin
news:Epb3b.15882$dk4.5...@typhoon.sonic.net...
> "Carnak" <Car...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:3f4d391...@news.west.earthlink.net...
> > Don't forget Charles Gayle & Rashied Ali's Touchin' on
> > Trane---awesome.
>
>
> No doubt indeed. That is a free jazz classic. It wasn't groundbreaking
on
> any level, but never have I heard two
*three* I meant...and within a free context. :-)
-JC
3243
> Depends on how you define avant-garde, but taking a broad view ...
>
> Mingus - Black Saint & the Sinner Lady, New Tijuana Moods
> Dolphy - Out to Lunch
> John Coltrane - Live at the Village Vanguard 1961, Love Supreme
> Miles Davis - In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew
> Andrew Hill - Point of Departure
> Bobby Hutcherson - Dialogue
> Horace Tapscott - The Dark Tree, The Giant is Awakened
> Ornette Coleman - Change of the Century
> Don Pullen - New Beginnings
> Steve Lacy - Morning Joy
> Mal Waldron - Seagulls of Kristiansund
> Cecil Taylor - Garden 2
> Max Roach - Percussion Bitter Sweet
> William Parker - Mayor of Punkville
> Matthew Shipp - Pastoral Composure
> Booker Little - Out Front
mazolotta, I find it rather interesting that you consider Horace
Tapscott to be avant-garde (well, borderline, anyway).
Here are a few albums along these lines:
John Coltrane--Live In Seattle
" "--Live In Japan
" "--Meditations
" "--First Meditations
" "--Ascension
" "--Interstellar Space
" "--Expression
" "--Stellar Regions
Jan Garbarek Quartet--Afric Pepperbird
Miles Davis--Miles In The Sky
" "--In A Silent Way
" "--Bitches Brew
" "--On The Corner
as one poster said, ANY Charles Mingus album
Larry Young--Lawrence Of Newark
Pharaoh Sanders--Tauhid
Chick Corea--Early Circle
Art Ensemble Of Chicago--Nice Guys
Wayne Shorter--The Odyssey Of Iska
Weather Report--Weather Report
mazzolata
>
> mazolotta, I find it rather interesting that you consider Horace
> Tapscott to be avant-garde (well, borderline, anyway).
Well, I did say I was taking a broad view. Honestly, very few of the
artists mentioned by anyone were truly avant garde. Schoenberg was avant
garde, or Stockhausen.
Nick
> Tom was one of the greatest musicians I have ever had the privilege of
> knowing. We were bandmates on Lionel Hampton, neighbors and compatriots for
> many years. He was at my first recording session and I was at his.
Very cool, Glenn.
I also knew Tom somewhat -- we were in the same college big band for a
while. He was already pretty advanced; it was the sort of thing where
you said "what's this guy doing in college?"
Which session did you attend? I bought one of his cassettes from him
around 1986 when he was getting his solo career going, but I don't
know if this counts as an "official" recording.
He was
> a tremendously hard worker and was always interested in learning something
> new. I was very gratified to see him have the succes he had with Knitting
> Factory. A damn shame his career was cut short. He had a lot more music to
> give the world. I would second Nick's recommendation. Check him out.
I'm usually pretty hard on avant garde players who sound like they
can't really play their instruments, but that's certainly not the case
with Tom. Granted, he liked to do wacky things occasionally like point
his bell into yours to create a beating effect when you both played.
The result was cacophonous, but interesting and it was a spice thrown
in amidst a lot of strong rhythmic and harmonic content. If someone
who can play like Tom did chooses to take it out, I pay lot more
attention than usual.
Glenn Wilson
> Which session did you attend? I bought one of his cassettes from him
> around 1986 when he was getting his solo career going, but I don't
> know if this counts as an "official" recording.
>
It was his first recording with Ronnie Matthews, Ray Drummond and John
Betsch. Was supposed to be Kenny Barron, but he never showed up at the
studio. Boy was that a long couple of hours. Paying for studio time and
not being able to record, then trying to call a pianist at the last minute.
Whew! That's probably the one you have on cassette, because I'm not sure it
was ever released. I took One Man's Blues from that session. Tom wrote
some great tunes. Although imagine my surprise when I actually looked up
the tune in a little book of his tunes that Tom self-published and found out
the title was actually One Man Blues! I had it wrong all these years.
Sorry Tom. I hope he's still getting the royalites, though, sparse as they
may be.
Glenn
www.jazzmaniac.com
THamiltn
>> CD, right?)
>
> First I've heard of it.
Reissued on Mutable Music, as a 2 CD set, titled "Space."
Description below from CDe catalog:
Space
This CD contains wonderful improvisations from the early 1980s by Roscoe
Mitchell, Thomas Buckner,
and Gerald Oshita. They're all great musicians, but Buckner's vocal
improvsations are so special,
they're unlike anything you've heard before. What's he doing? you'll ask.
Well, whatever it is, it's very
musical. And you'll want to listen to this CD again and again.
This is a 2-CD set. CD 1 contains compositions and improvisations by
Mitchell and Oshita: 'Marche',
'Textures for Trio', 'Prelude', 'Variations On Sketches From Bamboo, No.
1 & 2'. CD 2 is entirely group
improvisation: 'An Interesting Breakfast Conversation', 'Live at the
Public Theatre I', 'SVSA Scene 1',
'Live at the Public Theatre II', 'Shapes', 'Phonics', and 'Journeys'.
Roscoe Mitchell plays soprano, alto,
tenor, and bass saxophones, and E-flat clarinet; Gerald Oshita plays
alto, tenor, and baritone
saxophones, contrabass, sarrusaphone, and Conn-o-sax; and Thomas Buckner
sings.
Mutable Music => MU501 $16.00
Nick
> "Nick" <nick...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1d97fb30.03082...@posting.google.com...
> > Which session did you attend? I bought one of his cassettes from him
> > around 1986 when he was getting his solo career going, but I don't
> > know if this counts as an "official" recording.
> >
>
> It was his first recording with Ronnie Matthews, Ray Drummond and John
> Betsch. Was supposed to be Kenny Barron, but he never showed up at the
> studio. Boy was that a long couple of hours. Paying for studio time and
> not being able to record, then trying to call a pianist at the last minute.
> Whew! That's probably the one you have on cassette, because I'm not sure it
> was ever released.
Kenny was a professor of Tom's, so that must've been a downer on a
personal level as well to not have him show up. Maybe that's why Tom
did so much pianoless stuff later on! :-)
I guess things turned out okay -- Ronnie Matthews is no slouch, and
Tom's recording career snowballed from there.
Herb Levy
<mazz...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 3243 wrote:
> > Those of you who are into the various forms of what is called
> > experimental, creative, or avant-garde jazz, what would you say are
> > the 20 such albums to own a copy of?
>
> Depends on how you define avant-garde, but taking a broad view ...
>
> Mingus - Black Saint & the Sinner Lady, New Tijuana Moods
> Dolphy - Out to Lunch
> John Coltrane - Live at the Village Vanguard 1961, Love Supreme
> Miles Davis - In A Silent Way, Bitches Brew
> Andrew Hill - Point of Departure
> Bobby Hutcherson - Dialogue
> Horace Tapscott - The Dark Tree, The Giant is Awakened
> Ornette Coleman - Change of the Century
> Don Pullen - New Beginnings
> Steve Lacy - Morning Joy
> Mal Waldron - Seagulls of Kristiansund
> Cecil Taylor - Garden 2
> Max Roach - Percussion Bitter Sweet
> William Parker - Mayor of Punkville
> Matthew Shipp - Pastoral Composure
> Booker Little - Out Front
Iım taking an equally broad view, though in a substantially different
direction (in alphabetical order):
Art Ensemble of Chicago: 1967/68
Albert Ayler: Spiritual Unity
Derek Bailey/Han Bennink/Evan Parker: Topography of the Lungs
Han Bennink/Misha Mengleberg/Willem Breuker: ICP
Anthony Braxton: New York, Fall 1974
Peter Brotzmann: Machine Gun
Don Cherry: Symphony for Improvisors
Ornette Coleman: In All Languages
John Coltrane: Live at the Village Vanguard Again
Company: Epiphany
George E Lewis: Voyager
Butch Morris: Berlin Skyscraper
Evan Parker/Barry Guy/Paul Lytton
Sun Ra: Heliocentric Worlds
Burkhard Stangl/Christof Kurzmann: Schnee
Cecil Taylor: Always a Pleasure
Various: Improvised Music from Japan
Davy Williams/LaDonna Smith: TransMuseq
Tony Williams: Spring
John Zorn: Cobra: Xu Feng
The range of what people have suggested in this thread is wonderful,
reminding me to re-check many discs I havenıt listened to in a long
time.
And what would a thread focusing on the top 20 smooth jazz recordings
look like?
Bests,
Herb
Guy Berger
> I'm usually pretty hard on avant garde players who sound like they
> can't really play their instruments, but that's certainly not the case
> attention than usual.
I recently discovered Tom's music on the Knitting Factory box set
("Alive") -- a lot of it is terrific (even classic), though I think 8
CDs is a bit of an overdose.
Anyway, what do you think of Sam Rivers and Eric Dolphy?
Guy
np Tom Chapin
Glenn Wilson
just sent me two concerts from the Japanese tour with Miles that Sam did. I
had only heard the Sony release. There's some great playing on there.
There was a thread earlier about Fuscia.
Glenn
www.jazzmaniac.com
"Guy Berger" <guy.b...@NOTyale.edu> wrote in message
news:3F5549B8...@NOTyale.edu...
Ben Sharvy
> The Blue Mask (Lou Reed)
I *refuse* to fall for it.
Joseph Benzola
leaving too many out):
AEC: People in Sorrow
Braxton: Creative Orchestra Music 1978 (Live)
Don Cherry: Mu
John Coltrane: The Complete Village Vanguard
Eric Dolphy: Out to Lunch
Albert Ayler: Live in Greenwich Village-The Complete Impulse Recordings
Cecil Taylor: Unit Structures
Herbie Hancock: Sextant
Milford Graves: Grand Unification
Miles Davis: Live at the Fillmore
Ghost in the Machine: Featuring Evan Parker
Mingus: Mingus Presents Mingus
Sun Ra: Heliocenteric Worlds
Chick Corea: Sundance (This is a reissue which contains not only Sundance
but also Ciruclus which contains the AWESOME Drone)
Marion Brown: Afternoon of a Georgia Faun
Ornette Coleman: Skies of America
Sonny Rollins: Our Man in Jazz
George Lewis: Homage to Charlie Parker
Paul Bley: Japan Suite
Jackie Maclean: Old and New Gospel
--
Joseph Benzola
Amanita Music
ama...@optonline.net
www.electronicscene.com/jbenzola
www.mp3.com/amanitamusic
Herb Levy <he...@eskimau.invalid> wrote in message
news:010920031839467502%he...@eskimau.invalid...
Fabio Rojas
be historical:
Foundations:
Ornette Coleman - Shape of Jazz to Come
Cecil Taylor - Nefretiti album
John Coltrane - Ascension or Interstellar Space
Albert Ayler - Spiritual Unity
Chicago in the late 1960's:
Roscoe Mitchell - Sounds
Anthony Braxton - 3 Compositions
Sun Ra - Jazz in Silhouette
Art Encemble of Chicago - Batpizum, or the Box Set
The New York/Los Angeles Axis mid-late 1960's and beyond:
Mingus - Let My Children Hear the Music
Eric Dolphy - Out to Lunch
Andrew Hill/Bobby Hutcherson group: Point of Departure or Dialogue
Dave Holland - Conference of the Birds
European free music:
Peter Brotzmann - Machine Gun
Evan Parker - one of the solo soprano sax albums
Derek Bailey - Topography of the Lungs
Gems of the 1970's and 1980's:
Classic Braxton Quartet recorinds on Hat Art (Willisau)
Wildflowers Anthology from Knitting Factory
Downtown Scene/and or klezmer inspired fee music:
John Zorn's Masada recordings, or Game Pieces
The 1990's:
Solo piano recordings by Cecil Taylor
Die Like a Dog Quartet (Brotzmann, Kondo, Drake, Parker)
William Parker Little Huey Orchestra
Ken Vandermark group - various recordings
Nick
They both tend to be a little too out there for me. I had albums by
both years ago, but don't recall being particularly enamored of them.
I did admire Dolphy's flute playing in some respects, but I've just
never gained an appreciation for soloing that completely and
continuously disregards the chords. Chapin, BTW, had one of the purest
flute tones I've ever heard.
Dave Holland's "Conference of the Birds" featuring Sam Rivers was
interesting, but I also haven't heard that in ages. Not long ago I
listened to a Rivers' big band CD of fairly recent vintage just out of
curiosity, and it didn't do much for me. To sum it up: all tension, no
release.
JC Martin
> Guy Berger <guy.b...@NOTyale.edu> wrote in message
news:<3F5549B8...@NOTyale.edu>...
> > Nick wrote:
> > > I'm usually pretty hard on avant garde players who sound like they
> > > can't really play their instruments, but that's certainly not the case
> > > with Tom.If someone who can play like Tom did chooses to take it out,
I pay lot more
> > > attention than usual.
> >
> > I recently discovered Tom's music on the Knitting Factory box set
> > ("Alive") -- a lot of it is terrific (even classic), though I think 8
> > CDs is a bit of an overdose.
> >
> > Anyway, what do you think of Sam Rivers and Eric Dolphy?
> >
> > Guy
> >
> > np Tom Chapin
>
> They both tend to be a little too out there for me. I had albums by
> both years ago, but don't recall being particularly enamored of them.
> I did admire Dolphy's flute playing in some respects, but I've just
> never gained an appreciation for soloing that completely and
> continuously disregards the chords.
That's an odd statement coming from a supposed musician. Dolphy in fact
*never* disregarded the chords of a given tune, which is why he's never been
classified as an avant garde or free jazz artist.
-JC
Ben Sharvy
> "Nick" <nick...@aol.com> wrote in message
> That's an odd statement coming from a supposed musician.
You're incapable of saying anything without insulting someone.
Masayuki Hatta
> *never* disregarded the chords of a given tune, which is why he's never been
> classified as an avant garde or free jazz artist.
Agreed. In spite of public opinion, Dolphy never did so-called "free
jazz" - which I mean, just blowin', blowin' and blowin' meaningless
honks and shouts. His phrasing always has roots in chords - maybe
alternated or displaced, but still has some references to the original
chord sequences.
Dolphy knew chords in every corner - for example, his compositions
like "G. W.", "Red Planet" or "Les" have incredibly complex lines
but yet still on the somewhat conventional chord sequences like 12-bar
blues. He was also a big-band-seasoned player (and a Mingus alumnus), who
is supposed to be a good reader.
Also Sam Rivers is a awesome *lylical* player - check out his "Fuschia
Swing Song" album from Blue Note and listen to "Beatrice".
This is a gem.
--
Masayuki Hatta
Mike C.
news:d196ca8d.03090...@posting.google.com...
Apparently, if one of the constituents is insulted by passing comments. This
is not a statement that would insult me, had it been posted my way.
A little on the sensitive side, are we? Sounds like someone's monthly
visitor is about to arrive.
*That* is an insulting comment. Just for clarification.
--
Mike C.
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who
could
not hear the music."
--Friedrich Nietzsche
mazzolata
>>That's an odd statement coming from a supposed musician. Dolphy in fact
>>*never* disregarded the chords of a given tune, which is why he's never been
>>classified as an avant garde or free jazz artist.
>
>
> Agreed. In spite of public opinion, Dolphy never did so-called "free
> jazz" - which I mean, just blowin', blowin' and blowin' meaningless
> honks and shouts.
Did anyone ?
Masayuki Hatta
>>>*never* disregarded the chords of a given tune, which is why he's never been
>>>classified as an avant garde or free jazz artist.
>>
>> Agreed. In spite of public opinion, Dolphy never did so-called "free
>> jazz" - which I mean, just blowin', blowin' and blowin' meaningless
>> honks and shouts.
>
> Did anyone ?
Hmm, I guess I didn't express my thought well - my argument
actually consists of two parts:
1) Eric Dolphy is NOT a "Free Jazz" musician in any sense. "Free Jazz"
defined here is Jazz which does not rely on chords. In my opinion he
was directly from the be-bop tradition, even if it doesn't look so
at first.
2) There are good "Free Jazz" and bad "Free Jazz". Cecil Taylor or
Ornette plays freely, but they developed their own inner logic and
coherence. Sam Rivers too is a good Free Jazz musician who has
complete control of his instruments and have got something to say.
However, there were (and maybe still are) a bunch of musicians who
are not skilled enough and just make unpleasant, non-musical noises.
For example - well, maybe this is a flamebait, but I think young
Pharaoh Sanders was just a noisemaker for the latter-day Coltrane band.
To be fair, eventually Pharaoh matured, and his 1982 live dates
with John Hicks is really smoking, btw.
--
Masayuki Hatta
JC Martin
"Mike C." <Funki...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:DxK5b.352357$Ho3.52431@sccrnsc03...
> "Ben Sharvy" <bsh...@mac.com> wrote in message
> news:d196ca8d.03090...@posting.google.com...
> > "JC Martin" <jcma...@sonic.net> wrote in message
> news:<A_G5b.18244$dk4.5...@typhoon.sonic.net>...
> > > "Nick" <nick...@aol.com> wrote in message
> >
> > > That's an odd statement coming from a supposed musician.
> >
> > You're incapable of saying anything without insulting someone.
>
> Apparently, if one of the constituents is insulted by passing comments.
This
> is not a statement that would insult me, had it been posted my way.
>
> A little on the sensitive side, are we? Sounds like someone's monthly
> visitor is about to arrive.
>
> *That* is an insulting comment. Just for clarification.
I just found Nick's statement odd. I did probably overstate my case however
on Dolphy since some of his live recordings with Coltrane tend to go fairly
outside. But for the most part, Dolphy plays to the harmonic movement of a
given performance. Nothing personal.
I think Ben has an axe to grind given his ill-informed comments about Kenny
Burrell sounding like Jim Hall.
-JC
mazzolata
> 2) There are good "Free Jazz" and bad "Free Jazz". Cecil Taylor or
> Ornette plays freely, but they developed their own inner logic and
> coherence.
A couple of musicians that I have mixed feelings about ..
I like Taylor's early albums, and his later solo piano like 'The
Garden", but some of his group work I find unbearable. A good example
would be "It is in the brewing luminous". Gives me a headache.
Similarly with Ornette - the Change of the Century/Shape of Jazz to Come
era work is tremendous, but IMO the Free Jazz album is vastly overrated,
and the Prime Time stuff is junk. I'll take Henry Threadgill over late
Ornette any day of the week.
Marc Sabatella
> 1) Eric Dolphy is NOT a "Free Jazz" musician in any sense. "Free
Jazz"
> defined here is Jazz which does not rely on chords. In my opinion he
> was directly from the be-bop tradition, even if it doesn't look so
> at first.
I think defining "free jazz" solely by the lack of chords is misleading,
as it excludes a lot of music that is normally associated with this
label, and includes some music that isn't necessarily. Dolphy did in
deed at times play music that was "free" in some respects - including
lack of a well-defined chordal structure for improvisation. There is
some of this with Mingus ("What Love" most obviously so) on the Blue
Note recordings like "Out To Lunch", and elsewhere too - I don't see any
real evidence Dolphy was following any changes "Miss Ann", for example.
Plus, when you consider the nature of Dolphy's improvisations on
Coltrane's music which was admittedly modal in nature, it is clear that
Dolphy was definitely making music that was "free jazz" in some senses.
Perhaps not in the sense of music so lacking in familiar structures that
you personally dislike it, but still, in the usual sense of the word -
freedom from certain conventional structures such as chord
progressions - Dolphy clearly was doing this at times.
Of course, even when clearly playing changes, he did so in a more
"outside" manner than just about anyone else. This is a form of freedom
as well, but I suppose this is what you are referring to in saying he
wasn't playing "free jazz" in the sense some people mean by this.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
JC Martin
news:iiO5b.425$h5....@fe01.atl2.webusenet.com...
I think we should stick though with the original premise.
Nick said, "...but I've just never gained an appreciation for soloing that
completely and continuously disregards the chords."
It's just not a true statement. Dolphy rarely disregarded the chords of a
given piece.
-JC
Ben Sharvy
> > > > That's an odd statement coming from a supposed musician.
> > >
> > > You're incapable of saying anything without insulting someone.
> I just found Nick's statement odd.
When you call someone a "supposed musician" the implication is that
you doubt his musicianship. If you find someone's statement odd, you
write "That's odd." See the difference?
> I think Ben has an axe to grind given his ill-informed comments about Kenny
> Burrell sounding like Jim Hall.
Well, I didn't say that, but nobody ever commended you for integrity.
The idea is that I've never seen you talk to anyone with a different
opinion, and not be insulting about it. Naturally, you can't discuss
that idea without being insulting--I shouldn't have bothered.
Ben Sharvy
> 1) Eric Dolphy is NOT a "Free Jazz" musician in any sense. "Free Jazz"
> defined here is Jazz which does not rely on chords.
Is his playing on Free Jazz, free jazz?
I think the popular definition of free jazz involves the rhythmic
nature of the playing as well.
JC Martin
Relax Ben. Disagreement is okay by me. :-)
-JC
Masayuki Hatta
> you doubt his musicianship. If you find someone's statement odd, you
> write "That's odd." See the difference?
Actually, many able jazz musicians don't understand free jazz. I
read somewhere that Maynard Ferguson or Roy Eldridge disdained
Ornette's music as skillless and jive, and I doubt they've ever changed
their opinions.
--
Masayuki Hatta
Masayuki Hatta
> Garden", but some of his group work I find unbearable. A good example
> would be "It is in the brewing luminous". Gives me a headache.
I've never tried that one so I can't tell, but surely there are
substandard efforts. Two BN outputs would be a good example of
successful group expression of Cecil's music.
> Similarly with Ornette - the Change of the Century/Shape of Jazz to Come
> era work is tremendous, but IMO the Free Jazz album is vastly overrated,
> and the Prime Time stuff is junk. I'll take Henry Threadgill over late
> Ornette any day of the week.
I enjoy Prime Time and Threadgill's latest efforts equally. Prime
Time's Virgin Beauty features Dead's Jerry Garcia and they
blended surprisingly well. That's my favorite Prime Time. Anyway I'm
a kinda dedicated fan of Ornette, so whenever he blows, I like it ;-)
--
Masayuki Hatta
Masayuki Hatta
That's Ornette's album, so eventually his music is dominant. Freddie
Hubbard is on that date, but no one calls him "free jazz musician", right?
> I think the popular definition of free jazz involves the rhythmic
> nature of the playing as well.
Yes, and Dolphy mostly stuck with four beat in his date, with some
exception.
--
Masayuki Hatta
Mike C.
Funny, the only person here that seems insulted is you. And you certainly
did at least say that there's no reason to listen to Kenny Burrell when one
can listen to Jim Hall. *That* is a pretty clear meaning. Calling someone a
"supposed musician" implies nothing of the sort. It implies that we don't
know that the subject is a musician.
Someone get this guy a tampax.
Mr Zed
> Funny, the only person here that seems insulted is you. And you certainly
> did at least say that there's no reason to listen to Kenny Burrell when one
> can listen to Jim Hall.
Yes, that was dubious. There is a perfectly good reason: wanting to
listen to proper jazz.
>
> Someone get this guy a tampax.
Man, are they socking it to you or what!
tomw
mha...@po.airs.net says...
> > Is his playing on Free Jazz, free jazz?
>
> That's Ornette's album, so eventually his music is dominant. Freddie
> Hubbard is on that date, but no one calls him "free jazz musician", right?
>
But could Dolphy(or Hubbard, etc) be playing changes when there were no
changes?
Also if I remember correctly isn't "Iron Man" a free tune?
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Marc Sabatella
> I think we should stick though with the original premise.
>
> Nick said, "...but I've just never gained an appreciation for soloing
that
> completely and continuously disregards the chords."
Note I wasn't responding to Nick, though. But in any case, I agree,
when there are chords to be played, Dolphy, like most other musicians,
did not disregard them, even when playing outside them. But what about
pieces where there are no chords to disregard?
Marc Sabatella
> That's Ornette's album, so eventually his music is dominant. Freddie
> Hubbard is on that date, but no one calls him "free jazz musician",
right?
That's the problem with trying to sum up a person's career with a style
label. Many if not most musicians played in more than one style.
Hubbard did indeed play some music that pretty much has to be called
free jazz. So saying he was never a free jazz musician in any sense
would be as wrong as saying that about Dolphy.
Masayuki Hatta
>> Hubbard is on that date, but no one calls him "free jazz musician", right?
> But could Dolphy(or Hubbard, etc) be playing changes when there were no
> changes?
I don't know how they coped with this situation, but for me Dolphy and
Hub seemed to assume some "sequences" by themselves anyway. Maybe
they just relied on blues changes or something. Maybe they just blew.
Anyway as I said this is an Ornette's date, so Dolphy and Hub may
have tried their best to suit Ornette's style.
> Also if I remember correctly isn't "Iron Man" a free tune?
You mean "Iron Man" recorded in 1963? I couldn't decode the chord
sequences, but obviously there's one, and actually this sounds
like a well-structured AABA piece. Bobby Hutcherson's vibe molds the
structure.
--
Masayuki Hatta
tomw
mha...@po.airs.net says...
> >> That's Ornette's album, so eventually his music is dominant. Freddie
> >> Hubbard is on that date, but no one calls him "free jazz musician", right?
>
> > But could Dolphy(or Hubbard, etc) be playing changes when there were no
> > changes?
>
> I don't know how they coped with this situation, but for me Dolphy and
> Hub seemed to assume some "sequences" by themselves anyway. Maybe
> they just relied on blues changes or something. Maybe they just blew.
>
If you play a sequence of changes that are not the same as the changes
the rest of the ensemble is playing, then you are playing "outside the
changes" or "free". It may seem as though I'm splitting hairs, but I
submit that it is YOU sir, who are splitting hairs! Just kidding. :)
Masayuki Hatta
> label. Many if not most musicians played in more than one style.
> Hubbard did indeed play some music that pretty much has to be called
> free jazz. So saying he was never a free jazz musician in any sense
> would be as wrong as saying that about Dolphy.
Hmm, some confusions here - "Eric Dolphy (or Hub) is not free jazz
musician in any sense" doesn't mean Dolphy never played free jazz.
He did play with Ornette in "Free Jazz" but he also played with Roy
Eldridge. He had even tried some really avan-garde stuff and India
music mixture in Other Aspects (BN). Does these facts make him a
avan-garde modern classical musician or India music player or even Swing
musician? What I mean is his own conception is closer to those of
bebop than "free" like Cecil or Ornette. I admit he played differently
on occasion.
As you may know, my whole argument started where "classifying Eric
Dolphy as so-called free jazz musician is wrong". So your stance and
mine is pretty close, actually.
--
Masayuki Hatta
Marc Sabatella
> I don't know how they coped with this situation, but for me Dolphy and
> Hub seemed to assume some "sequences" by themselves anyway. Maybe
> they just relied on blues changes or something. Maybe they just blew.
In other words, they played "free jazz". And not just here - there are
other instances, some of which I've already cited, of these guys doing
this.
> You mean "Iron Man" recorded in 1963? I couldn't decode the chord
> sequences, but obviously there's one, and actually this sounds
> like a well-structured AABA piece.
I don't know the piece, but the fact that the head has an AABA form,
with changes implied, doesn't prevent one from playing freely during
solos. Many of Ornette's tunes are of this nature.
I seem to recall other example of Freddie Hubbard playing freely on the
token free piece on a couple of Herbie Hancock's Blue Note albums.
Ben Sharvy
> > Is his playing on Free Jazz, free jazz?
>
> That's Ornette's album, so eventually his music is dominant. Freddie
> Hubbard is on that date, but no one calls him "free jazz musician", right?
You didn't answer the question.
JC Martin
> "JC Martin" <jcma...@sonic.net> wrote:
>
> > I think we should stick though with the original premise.
> >
> > Nick said, "...but I've just never gained an appreciation for soloing
> that
> > completely and continuously disregards the chords."
>
> Note I wasn't responding to Nick, though. But in any case, I agree,
> when there are chords to be played, Dolphy, like most other musicians,
> did not disregard them, even when playing outside them.
Agreed.
>But what about
> pieces where there are no chords to disregard?
Well, that's a completely different situation, and I brought up his work
with Coltrane as an example.
-JC
Masayuki Hatta
> the rest of the ensemble is playing, then you are playing "outside the
> changes" or "free". It may seem as though I'm splitting hairs, but I
> submit that it is YOU sir, who are splitting hairs! Just kidding. :)
Did you really read what I wrote?
Anyway, I've already admitted Dolphy played some free stuff, but
that's not his own bag.
--
Masayuki Hatta
Ben Sharvy
> In article <pan.2003.09.05...@po.airs.net>,
> mha...@po.airs.net says...
> > > Is his playing on Free Jazz, free jazz?
> >
> > That's Ornette's album, so eventually his music is dominant. Freddie
> > Hubbard is on that date, but no one calls him "free jazz musician", right?
> >
>
> But could Dolphy(or Hubbard, etc) be playing changes when there were no
> changes?
>
> Also if I remember correctly isn't "Iron Man" a free tune?
Dolphy often played what is generally referred to as "free jazz." More
to the point, he often played avante-garde jazz, even when he wasn't
playing free jazz. People seem to be equating the two.
Masayuki Hatta
> other instances, some of which I've already cited, of these guys doing
> this.
Alright, I should have said "Dolphy can be good free jazz musician on
occasion". He could do free jazz with it own logic, not discharge of
incoherent ideas. But I still think his main interest is directed into
more chordal approach.
Weird thing is, he sounds always a bit unsure when he played modal tunes
like Impressions with Coltrane - and his own tunes usually feature
complex and frequent chord changes a la Herbie Hancock. Red Planet aka
Miles' Mode maybe an only exception.
> I don't know the piece, but the fact that the head has an AABA form,
> with changes implied, doesn't prevent one from playing freely during
> solos. Many of Ornette's tunes are of this nature.
I thought about that possibility (yes Ornette's tune was in my mind),
but for me Dolphy's solo on Iron Man keeps some reference to the chords
Bobby H. hits. Anyway I recommend Iron Man and Conversations -
incredible sessions.
--
Masayuki Hatta
tomw
> > the rest of the ensemble is playing, then you are playing "outside the
> > changes" or "free". It may seem as though I'm splitting hairs, but I
> > submit that it is YOU sir, who are splitting hairs! Just kidding. :)
>
> Did you really read what I wrote?
Yes, you wrote:
I don't know how they coped with this situation, but for me Dolphy and
> Hub seemed to assume some "sequences" by themselves anyway. Maybe
> they just relied on blues changes or something. Maybe they just blew.
"Assuming sequences" is a very typical way of playing outside of the
changes. Often referred to as playing "free". Am I coming through?
Anyhow now you concur that Dolphy sometimes played free, so it's a moot
point.
Nick
> "Masayuki Hatta" <mha...@po.airs.net> wrote:
>
> > 1) Eric Dolphy is NOT a "Free Jazz" musician in any sense. "Free
> Jazz"
> > defined here is Jazz which does not rely on chords. In my opinion he
> > was directly from the be-bop tradition, even if it doesn't look so
> > at first.
>
> I think defining "free jazz" solely by the lack of chords is misleading,
> as it excludes a lot of music that is normally associated with this
> label, and includes some music that isn't necessarily. Dolphy did in
> deed at times play music that was "free" in some respects - including
> lack of a well-defined chordal structure for improvisation.
Well said, Marc.
I hadn't listened to Dolphy in ages, so I went to Amazon and listened
to excerpts from "Out to Lunch," which many consider to be his
greatest album. It confirmed my existing opinion -- I heard a lot of
honking, screeching, and running of the fingers up and down the keys
as fast as possible with no regard for rhythm or harmony (which didn't
really exist, anyway). I think at one point I heard something
resembling a bebop lick for about half a measure, but I could be
wrong.
If this isn't "free jazz," I don't know what is.
> Of course, even when clearly playing changes, he did so in a more
> "outside" manner than just about anyone else. This is a form of freedom
> as well, but I suppose this is what you are referring to in saying he
> wasn't playing "free jazz" in the sense some people mean by this.
I also listened to some of the cuts from the "Complete Prestige"
collection. This was certainly a lot closer to "traditional jazz" than
Out to Lunch; it sounded like a guy playing bebop, more or less, and
taking extreme liberty with the changes. I love when players weave in
out out of the changes (a la M. Brecker or K. Garrett) but this
sounded mostly "out" without ever really coming back in. Also, his
intonation was, to my ears, questionable.
I wouldn't call Dolphy a "no talent" -- I've read that he was a
dedicated practicer and I heard some things that require a certain
level of technical accomplishment. But the resulting sound is not one
I enjoy listening to.
ric
> > Funny, the only person here that seems insulted is you. And you certainly
> > did at least say that there's no reason to listen to Kenny Burrell when one
> > can listen to Jim Hall.
>
> Yes, that was dubious. There is a perfectly good reason: wanting to
> listen to proper jazz.
Are you "proclaiming" that Jim Hall doesn't play "proper jazz" ??
--
Better than hearing "Lady Day", or checking in at Monterey...
Bunny
> > "JC Martin" <jcma...@sonic.net> wrote in message
> news:<aXL5b.18364$dk4.5...@typhoon.sonic.net
>Dolphy in fact
>*never* disregarded the chords of a given tune, which is why he's
never been
>classified as an avant garde or free jazz artist.
Everytime I look in this forum, I see you guys speaking idiocy and
being shitheads to boot. Dolphy is always classified as avante-garde.
Find a single critical source which classifies him as anything else.
Here's that way-out, weirdo source, the All-music Guide:
"Styles Avant-Garde Jazz, Free Jazz, Post-Bop"
"Eric Dolphy was a true original with his own distinctive styles on
alto, flute and bass clarinet. His music fell into the "avant-garde"
category yet he did not discard chordal improvisation altogether
(although the relationship of his notes to the chords were often
pretty abstract). While most of the other "free jazz" players sounded
very serious in their playing, Dolphy's solos often came across as
ecstatic and exuberant....Late in 1961 Dolphy was part of the John
Coltrane Quintet; their engagement at the Village Vanguard caused
conservative critics to try to smear them as playing "anti-jazz" due
to the lengthy and very free solos. During 1962-63 Dolphy played Third
Stream music with Gunther Schuller and Orchestra U.S.A."
Nonetheless, Mr. Marting is pleased to tell the world that Dolphy
"never been
classified as an avant garde or free jazz artist."
Last time I looked, there was a thread honoring somebody who died. Mr.
Martin's contribution to that cause was to start a flame war by
blaming people for starting flaming wars. Classy.
> Calling someone a
> "supposed musician" implies nothing of the sort. It implies that we don't
> know that the subject is a musician.
Bullshit, which a supposed literate person would recognize. Do you
know whether most of the people you meet are musicans? No. Do you go
around thinking of them as "supposed musicians," fuckhead?
> Someone get this guy a tampax.
The dildo up your ass is showing.
Marc Sabatella
> Dolphy often played what is generally referred to as "free jazz." More
> to the point, he often played avante-garde jazz, even when he wasn't
> playing free jazz. People seem to be equating the two.
True, but given that neither has any really well-defined meaning, that
almost can't be helped. I mean, one can invent more specific
definitions for the terms to create a distinction in one's own uses of
the terms, but these sorts of distinctions are not generally agreed
upon.
Marc Sabatella
> Hmm, some confusions here - "Eric Dolphy (or Hub) is not free jazz
> musician in any sense" doesn't mean Dolphy never played free jazz.
It is possible you didn't mean to imply that, but reading at face value,
it certainly seemed that way. Maybe it's a language issue - I would
imagine English might not be your first language.
> He did play with Ornette in "Free Jazz" but he also played with Roy
> Eldridge. He had even tried some really avan-garde stuff and India
> music mixture in Other Aspects (BN). Does these facts make him a
> avan-garde modern classical musician or India music player or even
Swing
> musician?
There are differences - just because introduced elements of Indian music
does not mean he was playing Indian music, and just because he ploayed
with Eldridge doesn't mean he was playing in a swing style. I haven't
heard the Indian thing, but I have heard the sessions with Eldridge, and
in fact would say that he was *not* playing in a swing style. But when
he was playing free jazz, he was playing free jazz - no two ways around
it.
> What I mean is his own conception is closer to those of
> bebop than "free" like Cecil or Ornette.
Of the three, I personally hear his music as closest conceptually to
Ornette's, with bebop decidedly in second. His music is indeed nothing
like Cecil's.
> As you may know, my whole argument started where "classifying Eric
> Dolphy as so-called free jazz musician is wrong". So your stance and
> mine is pretty close, actually.
True enough.
Marc Sabatella
> I hadn't listened to Dolphy in ages, so I went to Amazon and listened
> to excerpts from "Out to Lunch," which many consider to be his
> greatest album. It confirmed my existing opinion -- I heard a lot of
> honking, screeching, and running of the fingers up and down the keys
> as fast as possible with no regard for rhythm or harmony (which didn't
> really exist, anyway). I think at one point I heard something
> resembling a bebop lick for about half a measure, but I could be
> wrong.
>
> If this isn't "free jazz," I don't know what is.
It's borderline - much more structured than what one might normally
associate with this term. But since the structures are not you basic
bebop chord progressions, it does have an element of freedom to it.
As for your description of what you heard, there is pretty obvious
regard for rhythm throughout the album, and harmony when appropriate,
which isn't always. But melody is always their primary concern.
Marc Sabatella
> Everytime I look in this forum, I see you guys speaking idiocy and
> being shitheads to boot. Dolphy is always classified as avante-garde.
> Find a single critical source which classifies him as anything else.
Only those not very knowledgeable about music would make the mistake of
assuming that he (or any given artist) falls squarely into one style.
Like many musicians, some of his music is more traditionally boppish in
nature, some more free, with a large range between.
Ben Sharvy
> "Ben Sharvy" <bsh...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> > Dolphy often played what is generally referred to as "free jazz." More
> > to the point, he often played avante-garde jazz, even when he wasn't
> > playing free jazz. People seem to be equating the two.
>
> True, but given that neither has any really well-defined meaning, that
> almost can't be helped. I mean, one can invent more specific
> definitions for the terms to create a distinction in one's own uses of
> the terms, but these sorts of distinctions are not generally agreed
> upon.
Avante-garde refers to anything out of the mainstream. Free jazz is a
species of avante-garde. So, at one time, it was fair to consider Monk
avante-garde, even though he didn't play free-jazz.
Nick
> "Nick" <nick...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > I hadn't listened to Dolphy in ages, so I went to Amazon and listened
> > to excerpts from "Out to Lunch," which many consider to be his
> > greatest album. It confirmed my existing opinion -- I heard a lot of
> > honking, screeching, and running of the fingers up and down the keys
> > as fast as possible with no regard for rhythm or harmony (which didn't
> > really exist, anyway). I think at one point I heard something
> > resembling a bebop lick for about half a measure, but I could be
> > wrong.
> >
> > If this isn't "free jazz," I don't know what is.
>
> It's borderline - much more structured than what one might normally
> associate with this term. But since the structures are not you basic
> bebop chord progressions, it does have an element of freedom to it.
I see what you're saying. Based on what many have stated, it seems
like there's a distinction between "avant garde" and "free jazz," with
avant garde having more of a structure (even if it's rather skeletal
and implied), vs. free jazz which is more like "after we start
playing, do whatever you want."
> As for your description of what you heard, there is pretty obvious
> regard for rhythm throughout the album, and harmony when appropriate,
> which isn't always. But melody is always their primary concern.
The time seemed rather "fluid" to me but I only heard the snapshots
available on Amazon and I trust your judgement.
Toni Lassila
>I see what you're saying. Based on what many have stated, it seems
>like there's a distinction between "avant garde" and "free jazz," with
>avant garde having more of a structure (even if it's rather skeletal
>and implied), vs. free jazz which is more like "after we start
>playing, do whatever you want."
I think "avant-garde" was just the current buzzword critics tacked on
people like Ornette Coleman, Eric Dolphy, John Coltrane or Charles
Mingus, and has little to do with actually defining what their music
was.
BTW, your definition on free jazz would fit Monk as well, since he
often wondered off the stage after they'd started playing.
Nick
> > Calling someone "a supposed musician" implies nothing of the sort. It implies that we don't know that the subject is a musician.
Actually, your comment implied that you considered my observation so
ill-informed that you doubt my claim to be a musician, in which case
you think I am probably at best, self-deluded, and at worst, a liar.
But as insults go, this was pretty mild; I've seen you do much better.
Bunny said:
> Bullshit, which a supposed literate person would recognize. Do you
> know whether most of the people you meet are musicans? No. Do you go
> around thinking of them as "supposed musicians," fuckhead?
>
> > Someone get this guy a tampax.
>
> The dildo up your ass is showing.
Now, *that's* an insult! ;-)
JC Martin
news:1d97fb30.03090...@posting.google.com...
> JC Martin said:
> > > Calling someone "a supposed musician" implies nothing of the sort. It
implies that we don't know that the subject is a musician.
>
> Actually, your comment implied that you considered my observation so
> ill-informed that you doubt my claim to be a musician, in which case
> you think I am probably at best, self-deluded, and at worst, a >liar.
Not the case at all.
> Bunny said:
> > Bullshit, which a supposed literate person would recognize. Do you
> > know whether most of the people you meet are musicans? No. Do you go
> > around thinking of them as "supposed musicians," fuckhead?
> >
> > > Someone get this guy a tampax.
> >
> > The dildo up your ass is showing.
>
> Now, *that's* an insult! ;-)
Well, of course if this guy actually read the thread, he'd understand that
it was you who made a ridiculous assertion regarding Dolphy's playing:
"I did admire Dolphy's flute playing in some respects, but I've just
never gained an appreciation for soloing that completely and
continuously disregards the chords"
-------
Of course Dolphy doesn't *continually disregard the chords* and I never said
that some of Dolphy's material couldn't be classified as avant garde, which
of course is different than free jazz. Bunny used this argument from AMG:
"His music fell into the "avant-garde"category yet he did not discard
chordal improvisation altogether (although the relationship of his notes to
the chords were often pretty abstract)."
------------
Funnily enough, I merely pointed out that your statement is factually false
and it's strange that a musician would say what you did. Bunny only argued
in my favor. His incoherence and lack of ability to comprehend basic
English led him to believe I said something about Dolphy not being able to
be classified as avant garde under any circumstance. Well, of course I
never said that and given that I own just about everything Dolphy ever
recorded, I can attest to the fact that most of his recordings are not in
fact avant garde. Later in his career he definitely went in that direction.
But on any piece with chords, Dolphy never completely disregarded them. So
I suggest you do your research more before making factually incorrect
statements.
-------
-JC
jeff b.
=== snip =====
> But on any piece with chords, Dolphy never completely disregarded them. So
> I suggest you do your research more before making factually incorrect
> statements.
> -------
> -JC
For an essay that includes a snippet of a Dolphy solo and a discussion
on how his pitches relate to the published harmony of the tune, see:
http://www.geocities.com/jeff_l_schwartz/bebop.html
(Although I am not convinced the application of the term
'deconstruction' is appropriate)
In my opinion, "Out to Lunch" belongs on any list of most important
jazz works, avant-garde or not. All of its compositions are brilliant
conceptions that are not forgotten when the improvisation starts. If
you start playing the track in the middle, you will be able to
identify the tune after a few phrases. Throughout Dolphy's oeuvre, one
finds a very optimistic humanity expressed.
Jeff
tomw
j...@trompong.net says...
> "JC Martin" <jcma...@sonic.net> wrote in message news:<t517b.19672$dk4.6...@typhoon.sonic.net>...
> === snip =====
> > But on any piece with chords, Dolphy never completely disregarded them. So
> > I suggest you do your research more before making factually incorrect
> > statements.
> > -------
> > -JC
>
> For an essay that includes a snippet of a Dolphy solo and a discussion
> on how his pitches relate to the published harmony of the tune, see:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/jeff_l_schwartz/bebop.html
>
A good read, Jeff!
Ben Sharvy
> > Bunny said:
> Well, of course if this guy actually read the thread
Guy?
> I never said
> that some of Dolphy's material couldn't be classified as avant garde,
Mmm.
> Bunny only argued
> in my favor. His incoherence and lack of ability to comprehend basic
> English led him to believe I said something about Dolphy not being able to
> be classified as avant garde under any circumstance. Well, of course I
> never said that...
Liar. Your words exactly:
> he's never been
> classified as an avant garde or free jazz artist.
> I can attest to the fact that most of his recordings are not in
> fact avant garde. Later in his career he definitely went in that direction.
> But on any piece with chords, Dolphy never completely disregarded them.
Invalid. Avant-garde is not identical with disregarding chords.
> So
> I suggest you do your research more before making factually incorrect
> statements.
Good idea!
JC Martin
news:d196ca8d.03090...@posting.google.com...
> "JC Martin" <jcma...@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:<t517b.19672$dk4.6...@typhoon.sonic.net>...
>
> > > Bunny said:
>
> > Well, of course if this guy actually read the thread
>
> Guy?
>
> > I never said
> > that some of Dolphy's material couldn't be classified as avant garde,
>
> Mmm.
>
> > Bunny only argued
> > in my favor. His incoherence and lack of ability to comprehend basic
> > English led him to believe I said something about Dolphy not being able
to
> > be classified as avant garde under any circumstance. Well, of course I
> > never said that...
>
> Liar. Your words exactly:
Provide the quote if you need make such accusations. I don't think you'll
find such a quote---cause I never said it.
-JC
Bunny
> Of course Dolphy doesn't *continually disregard the chords* and I never said
> that some of Dolphy's material couldn't be classified as avant garde,
LOL!
> Bunny used this argument from AMG:
>
> "His music fell into the "avant-garde"category yet he did not discard
> chordal improvisation altogether (although the relationship of his notes to
> the chords were often pretty abstract)."
Argument to what end? Hm?
You snipped about 90% of what I cited, to improve appearances (for
yourself), and still refuted yourself: Dolphy is *always* classified
as avant garde.
> Funnily enough, I merely pointed out that your statement is factually false
> and it's strange that a musician would say what you did.
Wrong. You asserted that Dolphy is "never" classified as avant garde.
In fact, he is always classified as avant garde. If you can produce a
single critical, published source that says otherwise, do so.
> His incoherence and lack of ability to comprehend basic
> English led him to believe I said something about Dolphy not being able to
> be classified as avant garde under any circumstance.
That's right. You said he is "never" classified that way, which is
synonymous with "[not] under any circumstance."
None of this would matter, except you seem incapable of not being a
shithead to others when you perceive a mistake: you get treated as you
treat others.
Ben Sharvy
> > > His incoherence and lack of ability to comprehend basic
> > > English led him to believe I said something about Dolphy not being able
> to
> > > be classified as avant garde under any circumstance. Well, of course I
> > > never said that...
> >
> > Your words exactly:
>
> Provide the quote if you need make such accusations. I don't think you'll
> find such a quote---cause I never said it.
Um, it was in the text you deleted. When I wrote "Your words exactly:"
what followed was your words exactly. Tricky.
Marc Sabatella
> I see what you're saying. Based on what many have stated, it seems
> like there's a distinction between "avant garde" and "free jazz," with
> avant garde having more of a structure (even if it's rather skeletal
> and implied), vs. free jazz which is more like "after we start
> playing, do whatever you want."
Well, the two terms do have different meanings literally, but the
reality is, there is no concensus in how they are used. As Ben says,
literally, avant-garde refers to anything on the experiment side of the
mainstream, and that doesn't necessarily have to be "free" in the sense
we normally mean - it could mean, for instance, someone playing bebop on
bagpipes in the 1950's. On the other hand, "free jazz" almost never
means "do whatever you want" - virtually all musical forms rely on
communication and response between musicians. It's more "do whatever
you want that fits in some way with what happened before and what is
happening around you", which is a good description of jazz in general,
although in other forms of jazz one can also usually get more specific
and predict what will be going on at any particular time to some degree
(eg, 17 bars into the tune , they will be a bridge, menaing there will
be a Cm7 chord, etc).
> The time seemed rather "fluid" to me
That's often true. That is the reuslt of control, though, not
inattention. But if you are judging based only on 30-second snippets,
you aren't hearing any of the context in which the improvisations are
made, and they will tend to less unorganized.
JC Martin
news:a8696178.03090...@posting.google.com...
Amen to that brotha. Testify!
-JC
Marc Sabatella
> Wrong. You asserted that Dolphy is "never" classified as avant garde.
> In fact, he is always classified as avant garde. If you can produce a
> single critical, published source that says otherwise, do so.
As I said, anyone who knows the slightest bit about music would not make
the mistake of classifying him with a single word anyhow. Some of his
music was decidedly avant-garde, some was not, and I can't imagine
anyone with any understanding of the subject disputing that.
rderieux
> > I like Taylor's early albums, and his later solo piano like 'The
> > Garden", but some of his group work I find unbearable. A good example
> > would be "It is in the brewing luminous". Gives me a headache.
>
> I've never tried that one so I can't tell, but surely there are
> substandard efforts. Two BN outputs would be a good example of
> successful group expression of Cecil's music.
>
You guys would probably like his sides for Candid (Jumping Pumpkins,
etc.) with Archie Shepp and other notables.
Rene'
rderieux
>
> I hadn't listened to Dolphy in ages, so I went to Amazon and listened
> to excerpts from "Out to Lunch," which many consider to be his
> greatest album. It confirmed my existing opinion -- I heard a lot of
> honking, screeching, and running of the fingers up and down the keys
> as fast as possible with no regard for rhythm or harmony (which didn't
> really exist, anyway). I think at one point I heard something
> resembling a bebop lick for about half a measure, but I could be
> wrong.
>
...
>
> I wouldn't call Dolphy a "no talent" -- I've read that he was a
> dedicated practicer and I heard some things that require a certain
> level of technical accomplishment. But the resulting sound is not one
> I enjoy listening to.
>
Is this is a polite way of saying no-talent bum?
I would place the records he made with Booker Little against any
Jarret or Brecker records ANY day. There is more sense of exploration
and pushing of the envelop in them and I would say they are fresher by
far (even after so many decades).
I also wonder how someone who you consider to be close to, although
not completely, a "no talent" have worked for so long with Mingus who
was supposed to be BRUTAL when it came to players that did not have
their act together?
Also, check out Dolphy in all his encarnations (i.e. flute, bass
clarinet, clarinet, alto). He sounds like 3 different players in many
cases (as opposed to Coltrane on tenor and soprano was still the same
attack).
Rene' "I love Dolphy"