Coltrane's sax
John Vasquez
what sax did coltrane play on???
please reply by E-Mail.
thankx,
john
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Vince Clortho
wasn't it a Bundy? No wait...a VITO!!!
Rusty Trainham CEA Cadarache
John Vasquez (john...@primenet.com) wrote:
: what sax did coltrane play on???
From looking over some photographs:
For his tenor he mostly played a Selmer Balanced Action. Later photos
show him with a Mark IV. An early photo with Dizzy Gillespie in it
shows him holding a King Super 20 (or maybe a Zephyr).
His soprano appears to have been a Mark IV.
Mouthpieces were all Otto Links, even in a couple photos where the
mouthpiece is ebonite.
-- Rusty
William Jhun
Ummm, he used Selmer E (or F) metal mouthpieces on soprano, with a silver
Selmer ligature. I believe he used #4 Rico reeds, and his Link mpc was
usually a 5* from what I heard.
Cheers,
William Jhun
Rusty Trainham CEA Cadarache (trai...@penduick.saclay.cea.fr) wrote:
: -- Rusty
--
-*-|-------------------------------------------------------------------|-*-
-*-|William Y. Jhun - wj...@oswego.edu|DO NOT REPLY TO ROOT@COLTRANE!!!|-*-
-*-|486 Linux 2.0.14 & X11! - Amiga030/33 - When all fails, look for an|-*-
-*-|excuse to get Linux on your machine; It's the best solution to your|-*-
-*-|problems! I normally speak C, C++, some 680x0,etc. NO ix86! Working|-*-
-*-|on Java. Computers and Jazz Tenor Sax.. Coltrane, Brecker, Redman..|-*-
-*-|-----------------=>http://www.oswego.edu/~wjhun<=------------------|-*-
Ed Marchewicz
Rusty Trainham CEA Cadarache wrote:
>
> John Vasquez (john...@primenet.com) wrote:
> : what sax did coltrane play on???
>
> From looking over some photographs:
>
> For his tenor he mostly played a Selmer Balanced Action. Later photos
> show him with a Mark IV. An early photo with Dizzy Gillespie in it
> shows him holding a King Super 20 (or maybe a Zephyr).
career (with Otto Link metal mouthpieces) ? (Or was IV in
your post a typing error ?).
Ed
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
! Ed Marchewicz e.marc...@bgs.ac.uk Tel: +44 115 9363108 !
! British Geological Survey, Keyworth, Notts, NG12 5GG, U.K. !
+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
Rusty Trainham CEA Cadarache
In article <3326EB...@bgs.ac.uk> Ed Marchewicz wrote:
: Rusty Trainham CEA Cadarache wrote:
: >
: >
: > For his tenor he mostly played a Selmer Balanced Action. Later photos
: > show him with a Mark IV. An early photo with Dizzy Gillespie in it
: > shows him holding a King Super 20 (or maybe a Zephyr).
:
: ?? I thought he played Selmer Mark VI tenors for most of his
: career (with Otto Link metal mouthpieces) ? (Or was IV in
: your post a typing error ?).
Sorry that was a typo. It should have been Mark VI. As far as I know
there's no such thing as a Mark IV. In any case, I've seen only one
photo of Coltrane holding a Mark VI.
The tenor Coltrane used during most of his career was a Balanced Action,
and the tenor mouthpieces in most of the photos were Otto Link metal
(according to J.C. Thomas's biography it was a 6; he used Rico #4 reeds).
In one series of photos Coltrane is playing an Otto Link hard rubber
mouthpiece. This was probably after his unfortunate attempt to have his
metal mouthpiece reworked.
Most of the photos of his soprano are too blurry to clearly
see the mouthpiece. The only clear one is the cover photo of
My Favorite Things. That mouthpiece is not a Link and is probably
a Selmer metal.
Coltrane was reputed to have been a bit of a maniac about buying
mouthpieces. Chances are he played on everything available
A couple years ago I saw Ravi Coltrane playing a Balanced Action,
and I thought maybe it was John's, so I asked him where he got it.
Turns out he bought it from a shop in Berkeley. He did say, however,
that his mouthpiece was one that Pharaoh Sanders (another mouthpiece
maniac) had given him.
-- Rusty
P.S. Thanks for the e-mail, Ed.
William Jhun
No, he really did play balanced actions until 1965. You can tell by the
style of the neck- the balanced action lacks the "S" plate on the front,
and has a regular wire-style octave key. If you look at the front of
"Giant Steps", his pallate of left-hand-pinky keys are all on seperate
posts, which is not the case with a Mark VI. I have also seen the Super
20 picture w/ Diz. Any pictures of him '65 and later reveal a Mark VI. I
also have a photo of Trane playing his VI in his living room (with
Crescent, A Love Supreme, and some other albums on the wall) with a
varitone electronic attachment! (some wire that connects to the neck and
a control device on the low Bb, B guard) This is the same one Sonny Stitt
used....
William Jhun
Ed Marchewicz (e.marc...@bgs.ac.uk) wrote:
: Rusty Trainham CEA Cadarache wrote:
: >
: > John Vasquez (john...@primenet.com) wrote:
: > : what sax did coltrane play on???
: >
: > From looking over some photographs:
: >
: > For his tenor he mostly played a Selmer Balanced Action. Later photos
: > show him with a Mark IV. An early photo with Dizzy Gillespie in it
: > shows him holding a King Super 20 (or maybe a Zephyr).
:
: ?? I thought he played Selmer Mark VI tenors for most of his
: career (with Otto Link metal mouthpieces) ? (Or was IV in
: your post a typing error ?).
: Ed
: +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
: ! Ed Marchewicz e.marc...@bgs.ac.uk Tel: +44 115 9363108 !
: ! British Geological Survey, Keyworth, Notts, NG12 5GG, U.K. !
: +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+
--
Adam Schneit
William Jhun (wj...@news.oswego.edu) wrote:
: No, he really did play balanced actions until 1965. You can tell by the
: and has a regular wire-style octave key. If you look at the front of
: "Giant Steps", his pallate of left-hand-pinky keys are all on seperate
: posts, which is not the case with a Mark VI. I have also seen the Super
: 20 picture w/ Diz. Any pictures of him '65 and later reveal a Mark VI. I
: also have a photo of Trane playing his VI in his living room (with
: Crescent, A Love Supreme, and some other albums on the wall) with a
: varitone electronic attachment! (some wire that connects to the neck and
: a control device on the low Bb, B guard) This is the same one Sonny Stitt
: used....
That's funny. I thought Phil Woods was the first one to use the
Varitone. Maybe he was just the first one to use it in performance or on
record. By the way, when did the Mark VI come out?
-adam
--
-----------------------
"Jazz has built up this need to be unique. That's egotistical. As far as
I'm concerned, the last thing you should try to be is original."
--Keith Jarrett
Rusty Trainham CEA Cadarache
: I wrote: <some inaccurate info of Coltrane's setup>
Ohlalalala.. my memory can be so imprecise at times.
It's been a number of years since I've read Thomas's biography
of Coltrane, so I dug it out to verfy the info I posted the other
day. Well, I goofed. On page 101 of the 1975 paperback edition
Thomas states that Coltrane played a Selmer Paris Mark VI tenor
with a medium chamber 5* metal Otto Link mouthpiece. The soprano
was a Mark VI with a Selmer metal size E mouthpiece.
Ok, so that is what is in print. From (my defective) memory, the
other biographies (Cole's, Simpkins's, Nisenson's) say nothing about
his setup. I have looked over the photos again, and basically I see
two different saxophones. All the photos that predate the Impulse!
recordings have what appears to be a Selmer Balanced Action. The
photos during the Impulse! era show that same tenor, or another one
that is clearly a Mark VI (and the Mark VI shows up in more photos
than I had suspected).
So what are the distinguishing characteristics of the two horns?
The Balanced Action has a neck with a simple wire lever on the octave
vent, whereas the Mark VI lever has a plate with the distinguishing
S logo. The Balanced Action has a two piece key guard for the bell
keys (B & Bb); the Mark VI bell key guard is single piece. The Balanced
Action has a very ornate engraving on the bell. The Mark VI engraving
is simpler (although more elaborately engraved than the Mark VII or the
Super Action Series I & II).
Now it is possible that what I'm calling a Balanced Action could be
a very early Mark VI. Selmer is known to make changes, even radical
changes, to a saxophone line without giving it a new name. One such
change was the introduction of the high F# key towards the end of the
Mark VI series. Also they have been known to name a new series before
its defining characteristics are fully in manufacture. Many of the
early Mark VIIs are no different from late Mark VIs. What is commonly
referred to as the Balanced Action includes several series: the tea-
kettle, the Improved, the Dorsey, and the Super.
Here in France, everybody plays a Selmer (ok, I do know one guy who
sometimes plays a Conn, and I sometimes play a King Zephyr) so I've
seen a lot of Mark VI's and a fair number of Balanced Actions. So
far, I have never seen a Mark VI sporting the Balanced Action style
neck. Also, a lot of Mark VI's out there have no engraving at all.
Seems I'd heard somewhere that the unengraved Mark VI's were supposed
to be rare, having been manufactured just after Selmer's engraver had
died sometime in the early seventies. A couple friends have unengraved
Mark VI's they'd bought in the early sixties, so that rumor is a myth.
Incidentally, last week I saw the new Super Action Series III tenor.
It's been in the stores for about a month, and, apparently, there is
already a four month wait on orders. Selmer's promo for it states
flatly that this horn is not a new Mark VI, but that it does try to
give some of the things that people look for in a Mark VI.
The brass alloy has been changed, and the new horn is lighter than
the Super Action Series or the Mark VII (but still heavier than the
Mark VI). The arch of the goose neck has been flattened, making it
look a lot like a Mark VI. The hinges of the side keys (Bb, C, E)
are a hybrid of Mark VI and Super Action mechanisms. The side keys
have been shortened and lowered so that they can be actuated without
removing the hand from the lower right hand keys. The left hand
palm keys have been lowered somewhat and put closer together (this
should be good news to somebody with small hands). The left hand
spatula keys have been modified so that when one presses the low B
or C#, the Bb spatula rises up giving some tactile feedback as to
where to slide to when going going to another key. The low Eb and
C spatula are hinged on a single rod. The rod supports posts have
smaller footprints, so now there is less metal brazed to the body,
allowing the horn to vibrate more freely. The attachment collar
for the bell has been redesigned, presumably also to allow freer
vibration. The sound of the horn is brighter and warmer than a
Super Action II, but somewhat darker than a Mark VI. Projection
is very good. Intonation is excellent.
The price... 20000 FF (roughly $3600) for clear lacquered brass
and no engraving.
-- Rusty
Piotr Michalowski
In article <5gitu3$l...@news.cea.fr> trai...@penduick.saclay.cea.fr (Rusty Trainham CEA Cadarache) writes:
>snip
>Here in France, everybody plays a Selmer (ok, I do know one guy who
>sometimes plays a Conn, and I sometimes play a King Zephyr) so I've
>seen a lot of Mark VI's and a fair number of Balanced Actions. So
>far, I have never seen a Mark VI sporting the Balanced Action style
>neck. Also, a lot of Mark VI's out there have no engraving at all.
>Seems I'd heard somewhere that the unengraved Mark VI's were supposed
>to be rare, having been manufactured just after Selmer's engraver had
>died sometime in the early seventies. A couple friends have unengraved
>Mark VI's they'd bought in the early sixties, so that rumor is a myth.
Please note that there are some differences between horns played in the US and
in Europe. I do not know how many were exported from here, so I suspect that
most European musicians played horns made on the continent, Selmer, Buffet,
SML etc. As for the Mark VI; the ones used in the US were shipped in pieces
to Indiana where they were assembled and engraved. Most US Mark VI's that I
have seen have had engravibng except for some very late ones. I have also
played some that were exported from France already assembled to Canada, and
these were somewhat different, with keys that were not the same as those in
the US. I am no expert on the matter, so othrs may have more precise
information, but there are definitely small differences between the US and
French horns. Alas, I have never played a Balanced Action, so I cannot say
anything about these lovely horns!
William Jhun
Adam Schneit (sch...@fas.harvard.edu) wrote:
: William Jhun (wj...@news.oswego.edu) wrote:
: : No, he really did play balanced actions until 1965. You can tell by the
: : style of the neck- the balanced action lacks the "S" plate on the front,
: : and has a regular wire-style octave key. If you look at the front of
: : "Giant Steps", his pallate of left-hand-pinky keys are all on seperate
: : posts, which is not the case with a Mark VI. I have also seen the Super
: : 20 picture w/ Diz. Any pictures of him '65 and later reveal a Mark VI. I
: : also have a photo of Trane playing his VI in his living room (with
: : Crescent, A Love Supreme, and some other albums on the wall) with a
: : varitone electronic attachment! (some wire that connects to the neck and
: : a control device on the low Bb, B guard) This is the same one Sonny Stitt
: : used....
: That's funny. I thought Phil Woods was the first one to use the
: Varitone. Maybe he was just the first one to use it in performance or on
: record. By the way, when did the Mark VI come out?
: -adam
When did Woods appear with it? Stitt and Eddie Harris used it in
performance..Trane used it at home. The Mark VI came out in 1954 (I
believe) and ended production some time in the mid-70's
Cheers,
William
William Jhun
: So what are the distinguishing characteristics of the two horns?
: The Balanced Action has a neck with a simple wire lever on the octave
: vent, whereas the Mark VI lever has a plate with the distinguishing
: S logo. The Balanced Action has a two piece key guard for the bell
: keys (B & Bb); the Mark VI bell key guard is single piece. The Balanced
: Action has a very ornate engraving on the bell. The Mark VI engraving
: is simpler (although more elaborately engraved than the Mark VII or the
: Super Action Series I & II).
Also note the way the posts for the left hand palette are arranged on the
two horns. The VI has one for G#, and one for all Bb,B, and C# keys. The
BA has one for each, all in a tilted line. Trane's BA looks a little bent
up on the bell, etc.
: Now it is possible that what I'm calling a Balanced Action could be
: a very early Mark VI. Selmer is known to make changes, even radical
: changes, to a saxophone line without giving it a new name. One such
: change was the introduction of the high F# key towards the end of the
: Mark VI series. Also they have been known to name a new series before
The F# key was an option that was around for a long time. Some horns had
them, most didn't. I know a guy who has a 5x,xxx horn with a silver bell,
high F#...
My sax teacher has a mid -60's VI which has a little doohickey on the
neck for a varitone attachment. Does anyone know the point of having a
pickup near the mpc?
: its defining characteristics are fully in manufacture. Many of the
: early Mark VIIs are no different from late Mark VIs. What is commonly
: referred to as the Balanced Action includes several series: the tea-
: kettle, the Improved, the Dorsey, and the Super.
: Incidentally, last week I saw the new Super Action Series III tenor.
: It's been in the stores for about a month, and, apparently, there is
: already a four month wait on orders. Selmer's promo for it states
: flatly that this horn is not a new Mark VI, but that it does try to
: give some of the things that people look for in a Mark VI.
: ... ...
Thanks for the info! I'd like to try one some time :o)
BTW- Is there a difference between Selmers distributed in the U.S. and
those in France? (writing on bell, etc).
: The price... 20000 FF (roughly $3600) for clear lacquered
brass : and no engraving.
: -- Rusty