Penguin Guide: Short Review & 5 Star Recordings
william.j.hery
over the last week, I have a few thoughts.
First of all, it definitely worth getting for any jazz fan. 1200 pages of
reviews of in print recordings, organized by artist, with the recordings
for each artists reviewed as a set, rather than as independent reviews,
plus some biographical information on the artists. I think if everyone
on r.m.b had a copy, bandwidth would go down noticably because we
wouldn't be answering questions (what are the 2-3 essential Ornette
records?).
On the other hand there are enough controvertial ratings there to more
than replace the saved bandwidth with debates on what Penguin has to say.
("Do you believe what Penguin said about Ornette's NEW YORK IS NOW?
Thin and directionless? Those guys wouldn't know a great record
if they tripped over it" etc., etc.--and no, I don't want to start
that debate :-).)
The book has only two authors (Robin Cook and Brian Morton, both assocaited
with WIRE, and no other reviewers are credited in the introducion. If
these two gentlemen really did reveiw all those recordings (I would guess
about 8000 or so covering every sub-genre from early New Orleans to avant
garde and European improv!), that is pretty amazing. I suspect that they
had some help reviewing things, though, because of the volume and the
inconsitency of the ratings.
Ah, the ratings. 1 to 5 stars. Tons of 3 star records. Very
generous with 4 stars. Not many 5 stars. And I didn't pay as much attention
to the 1 and 2 star frequencies.
Now we all know that these kind of ratings are BS (which is why Cadence is
so nice--you have to read the review and do a little thinking to form a
judgement, instead of having it done for you completely). But they are
still interesting, and in some cases surprising. My biggest surprise
was that I found they were usually within 1 star of what I would have rated
recordings I felt I knew pretty well. Of course there were some glaring
errors (to me :-) ), like Bradford's COMIN ON at only 2 stars (4 in my
judgement) and John Carter's wonderful suites at only 3 stars each
(4.5 for me).
But the most interesting part of the ratings is the set of 5 star
recordings: No Diz. No Ornette. No Max. No Brownie. A few surprises
(to me, at least, because of unfamiliarity--hopefully hidden masterpieces,
because I intend to buy a few of them): Brotzmann, Schlippenbach (which
should make Bill Hsu exstatic), Edward Vasala...not complaints, just
surprises.
Here's the list of Penguin 5 Star recordings. Keep in mind that only
recordings currently in print in England are reviewed in the book.
Armstrong, Hot 5s and 7s Vol I, II, and III
Basie, Original Decca Recordings
Blakey, Jazz Messengers with Thelonious Monk
Peter Brotzmann, Machine Gun
Coltrane, Love Supreme
Coltrane, Major Works (Impulse 3 CD set with both Ascencions, Om,
Selflessness, and Kulu Se Mama)
Davis, Kind of Blue
Dolphy, Out To Lunch
Ellington, Blanton-Webster Years
Ellington, Afro Eurasian Eclipse
Bill Evans, Sunday at the Village Vanguard
Bill Evans, Waltz For Debbie
Art Farmer, Blame it on My Youth
Ganelin Trio, Catalogue: Live in East Germany
Andrew Hill, Point of Departure
Bobby Hutcherson, Dialog
JJ Johnson, Eminent JJ Johnson, Vol I
Geroge Lewis, Homage to Charlie Parker
Shelly Manne, At the Blackhawk
John McLaughlin, Extrapolation (1969, with John Surman)
Mingus, The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
Monk, Genius Vol I
Monk, Complete Riverside Recordings
Jelly Roll Morton, Volume I (on JSP records)
Fats Navaro, The Fabulous Fats Navaro, Vol I
King Oliver, Volume I 1923-29
Parker, Charlie Parker Story (Savoy)
Parker, Complet on Dial Vol 1, 4, 5 (Spotlight LPs)
Parker, Legendary Dial Masters (Stash CD)
Rollins, Saxophone Colossus
Alexander von Schlippenbach, Pakistani Pomade
Sun Ra, Jazz in Silhouette
Art Tatum, Complete Pablo Solo Masterpieced
Edward Vesala, Lumi
Vienna Art Orchestra, The Minimalism of Erik Satie
Larry Young, Unity
Zorn, The Big Gundown
Bill Hery
AT&T Bell Labs
201-386-2362
he...@att.COM
John Thomas
[stuff deleted]
I am on a von Schlipp kick right now. However, I have no idea what this is
or who is playing on it. Bill Hery, could you elaborate on this one?
|> Sun Ra, Jazz in Silhouette
|> Art Tatum, Complete Pablo Solo Masterpieced
|> Edward Vesala, Lumi
|> Vienna Art Orchestra, The Minimalism of Erik Satie
|> Larry Young, Unity
|> Zorn, The Big Gundown
|>
|> Bill Hery
|> AT&T Bell Labs
|> 201-386-2362
|> he...@att.COM
How can they leave off Sun Ra's ESP titles? Mingus' band with Dolpy?
This really is a ridiculous list.
No AEC, Braxton, Lacy, Ayler (!)...
What about Dexter's 60s Blue Notes?
No small group Lester Young?
Roy Eldridge? TURNING POINT by Paul Bley...
Ahhhhhhhhhh! Is some of this stuff not in print in England?!
ke...@local.host
>In article <1993Jan23.0...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, w...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (william.j.hery) writes:
>
>[stuff deleted]
>
>|> Here's the list of Penguin 5 Star recordings. Keep in mind that only
>|> Rollins, Saxophone Colossus
>|> Alexander von Schlippenbach, Pakistani Pomade
>
>I am on a von Schlipp kick right now. However, I have no idea what this is
> ================================================================
"Pakistani Pomade" FMP 110, Evan Parker (ss,ts); AVS; Paul Lovens (d);
from November, 1972. Unfortunately, I don't have the LP, so can't say what
the music is like.
This isn't listed in Cadence, has anyone an idea of where
to purchase this by mail order?
Bill Kenz
Moorhead, MN
ke...@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu
===============================================================>
Brian Lindsay
>In article <1993Jan23.0...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, w...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (william.j.hery) writes:
>
>[stuff deleted]
>
>|> Here's the list of Penguin 5 Star recordings. Keep in mind that only
>|> recordings currently in print in England are reviewed in the book.
>|>
>
>This really is a ridiculous list.
>
I am sure a lot of potential 5 star recordings are out of print
over in UK (and here), but I think you also have to bear in mind
what they are indicating with 5 stars.
4 stars indicates " an outstanding record that demands a place
in any comprehensive collection".
The 5 star recordings are supposed to be of a "desert island
calibre, amoung the very finest of all jazz recordings [...]
, only a handful of discs". Maybe the exercise is futile, but
anytime you try and limit yourself to a handful there is
going to be something that someone else thinks should have
been on the list.
In any case I think its an excellent reference. I especially
like the fact that the players for each recording are fully
listed, plus it has a full index, so you can find every (in
UK print) recording your favorite player was on.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions expressed above are solely those of Brian Lindsay
--------------------------------------------------------------
ke...@local.host
I forgot to mention that I do have, however, an excellent recording of
AVS, Parker, Lovens, and the late Alan Silva on FMP 1020, recorded about 10
years after "Pakistani Pomade." Silva's presence perhaps makes this especially
good. I checked my FMP catalog because I thought there were other
AVS/Parker/Lovens recordings, #410 "The Hidden Peak" (with Peter Kowald on
bass) looks promising also (1977). FMP 1020 is called "Anticlockwise." Has
anyone any impressions of "The Hidden Peak?"
A final note: most of the Globe Unity Orchestra recordings are also worth
investigating. "Evidence" (FMP 220) and "Into the Valley" (FMP 270) are
available as single LP's or as one CD (I don't have the CD, but assume it's
complete). The music is from a live concert March 1975. I originally bought
it for the Steve Lacy contributions, but have found the rest of the band just
as invigorating (Evan Parker, Albert Mangelsdorff, Peter Kowald , Kenny
Wheeler, and others.)
Bill Kenz
Moorhead State University
Minnesota
1/25/93
Marc Sabatella
: ("Do you believe what Penguin said about Ornette's NEW YORK IS NOW?
: Thin and directionless? Those guys wouldn't know a great record
: if they tripped over it" etc., etc.--and no, I don't want to start
: that debate :-).)
OK, then I will :-). Not about "New York Is Now" (a perfectly average Ornette
album, I'd say), but about some of the 5 star recordings.
: No Diz. No Ornette. No Max. No Brownie.
The lack of Diz doesn't surprise me - for a guy who had been around as long as
he had, and who was considered an all-time great, he didn't really seem to
have much that was considered "essential" under his own name. But I imagine
he must have appeared on a Bird collection or two that rated 5 stars?
One could probably make the same argument (minus the length of service bit for
Brownie) for the others, except Ornette. How "The Shape Of Jazz To Come"
managed to evade that fifth star is a mystery to me.
: Blakey, Jazz Messengers with Thelonious Monk
Ick. I was pretty excited when I first saw this recording, but having heard
it, I have to say it is one of my least favorite Blakey albums, and one of my
least favorite Monk albums.
: Bill Evans, Sunday at the Village Vanguard
: Bill Evans, Waltz For Debbie
Even a set of outtakes from the same session rates 5 stars (not that I'm
disagreeing, mind you)...
: Andrew Hill, Point of Departure
: Bobby Hutcherson, Dialog
I think these two are the same album. At least, every time I grab one to put
on, I'm always expecting it to be the other :-) They are also both arguably
Dolphy's "Out To Lunch". So I guess it doesn't surprise me to see all three
get 5's, although I would have given them only 3-4.
All on all, I find their choices, well, weird. You'd kind of expect a short
list of 5-star recordings to look more like a set of "essential" and/or
"historic" recordings. I'd almost expect them to do a "top down" analysis -
agree on the 20 (or however many there were) best recordings, give them 5
stars, then maybe go back and individually rate the others.
--
Marc Sabatella
ma...@hpmonk.fc.hp.com
--
Amendment 2 Is Legalized Discrimination - Shame On You, Colorado
--
"Neither the State of Colorado ... nor any of its municipalities ... shall ...
enforce any ... ordinance ... whereby homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual
orientation ... shall ... be the basis of ... any ... claim of discrimination"
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
Dick Burger
>: Andrew Hill, Point of Departure
>: Bobby Hutcherson, Dialog
>
>I think these two are the same album. At least, every time I grab one to put
>on, I'm always expecting it to be the other :-) They are also both arguably
>Dolphy's "Out To Lunch". So I guess it doesn't surprise me to see all three
>get 5's, although I would have given them only 3-4.
>
here at the University of Wisconsin (he's a great story teller!), and I have
a soft spot for his work from the early sixties. I think that Richard Davis
is a little like Art Blakey in that he seems to bring out the best in the
other musicians.
By the way, there's a Earl Hines Trio record from the 60's with RD on bass
that is just fantastic. I think it is called Stanley the Steamer or
something like that, maybe it is on Douglass Records. What a find! Incredible
music from an unlikely combo. Somehow in my lust to enter the world of CD's
i allowed this precious vinyl to slip through my fingers. Anybody seen
Earl Hines with Richard Davis music on CD?
dick burger
Sandeep Mehta
In article <1993Jan24....@msus1.msus.edu> ke...@local.host writes:
> "Pakistani Pomade" FMP 110, Evan Parker (ss,ts); AVS; Paul Lovens
> (d); from November, 1972. Unfortunately, I don't have the LP, so
> can't say what the music is like.
>
> This isn't listed in Cadence, has anyone an idea of where
> to purchase this by mail order?
Sadly it is out of print until Mr. Gebers does a CD run. Cadence
bought/got all the remaining vinyl stock from FMP and there will be
no more. If you didn't see it in the Jan issue it is OOP. You might
be lucky to find a used copy somewhere. Given the recent press I'd
say it'll be back before long (wishful thinking!)
/sandeep
--
sme...@nynexst.com
--
"This space of time is organized. We need not fear these
silences, -- we may love them." -- John Cage, Silences, 1961.
ke...@local.host
> <1993Jan24....@msus1.msus.edu>
>Date: 25 Jan 93 14:30:06
>Lines: 22
>
>
>In article <1993Jan24....@msus1.msus.edu> ke...@local.host writes:
>
>> "Pakistani Pomade" FMP 110, Evan Parker (ss,ts); AVS; Paul Lovens
>> (d); from November, 1972. Unfortunately, I don't have the LP, so
>> can't say what the music is like.
>>
>> This isn't listed in Cadence, has anyone an idea of where
>> to purchase this by mail order?
>
>Sadly it is out of print until Mr. Gebers does a CD run. Cadence
>bought/got all the remaining vinyl stock from FMP and there will be
>no more. If you didn't see it in the Jan issue it is OOP. You might
>be lucky to find a used copy somewhere. Given the recent press I'd
>say it'll be back before long (wishful thinking!)
===========================================
Sandeep:
Have you any impressions of the LP? I'm assuming you own it. Just curious,
since if I ever see it, I'll buy it!
Bill Kenz
ke...@mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu
===========================================
John Thomas
|>
|> A final note: most of the Globe Unity Orchestra recordings are also worth
|> investigating. "Evidence" (FMP 220) and "Into the Valley" (FMP 270) are
|> available as single LP's or as one CD (I don't have the CD, but assume it's
|> complete). The music is from a live concert March 1975. I originally bought
|> it for the Steve Lacy contributions, but have found the rest of the band just
|> as invigorating (Evan Parker, Albert Mangelsdorff, Peter Kowald , Kenny
|> Wheeler, and others.)
|>
|> Bill Kenz
|> Moorhead State University
|> Minnesota
|> 1/25/93
|>
Yes! The CD is RUMBLING and it is complete although I can't remember if
it includes any extras not on the LPs.
I have got it at home and like it a lot. Milo Fine slams it in a
recent Cadence for the very reasons why I like it so much so
don't take his word too seriously.
The sound isn't the best but considering the availability of GUO
or BCJO recordings I am not complaining.
Andrew Sherman
>
> First of all, it definitely worth getting for any jazz fan. 1200 pages of
> reviews of in print recordings, organized by artist, with the recordings
> for each artists reviewed as a set, rather than as independent reviews,
> plus some biographical information on the artists. I think if everyone
> on r.m.b had a copy, bandwidth would go down noticably because we
> wouldn't be answering questions (what are the 2-3 essential Ornette
> records?).
>
> On the other hand there are enough controvertial ratings there to more
> than replace the saved bandwidth with debates on what Penguin has to say.
> Thin and directionless? Those guys wouldn't know a great record
> if they tripped over it" etc., etc.--and no, I don't want to start
> that debate :-).)
it a few hours. Incidentally, I got my copy in Crown books, so I think
we can assume it'll be in most places this week.
One thing I really like is that there is a consistent voice (or
should that be two voices?). It's not like the Rolling Stone Jazz
Record Guide where you don't know if the reviewer of any particular
artist is their biggest fan or their worst enemy. And that's another
thing, it's good that it's so personal. I hate those lists that go
Kind of Blue
Giant Steps
Out of the Cool
Portrait in Jazz
etc.
cos there's no personality. With this books there are
idiosyncrasies, it's worth discussing.
Also, what should we call it? "Penguin" sounds silly. How about
"Cook and Morton"?
--
Andrew Sherman (an...@ingres.com)
Ingres, an ASK company, 1080 Marina Village Parkway, Alameda, California 94501
william.j.hery
>One thing I really like is that there is a consistent voice (or
>should that be two voices?). It's not like the Rolling Stone Jazz
>Record Guide where you don't know if the reviewer of any particular
In reading the reviews, I don't find them to be completely consistent--in
fact some records which are co-led are reviewed under both artists and in
at least one case got different ratings!
Although there are only 2 authors listed, and there is no reference I can
find to any other reviewers, I find it hard to believe that this is entirely
the work of two reviewers, especially if the recordings are reviewed with
any care (meaning several close listenings). At 1200 pages and many reviews
per page, ther seem to be well over 10,000 albums reviewed. The average
time for CDs seems to be approaching 60 minutes (compared to 45-50 minutes
for LPs), and many of the albums are multiple album sets, so there is
probably over 10,000 hours ov music reviewed, or 5,000 hours per reviewer.
Given about 2000 hours per year in the average work week (40 hours/week,
50 weeks/year), if they each listened to the records once, as a full time
job, it would have taken them 2.5 years just to listen. Through in a bit of
time to write a review (or do they do that while they listen to the next
one?), maybe listen to some of them a few times (how could you not listen
to a 5 star record a few times; how could you give a record 1 star in
good conscience without a few listenings to give it a fair chance;
how could you give ANY rating fairly on one listening)...so even
3 listenings per album means 7.5 years each AS A FULL TIME JOB.
I don't believe it.
I suspect that some of the reviews are "cribbed" from other reviews,
probalby in Wire, and from recollections of things they haven't even
heard for years--or maybe never heard, but heard the repuation of.
Either that, or there are a bunch of uncredited reviewers. In either
case, I would like to see signed reviews, so I can see who reviewed them
and get a mental "profile" of how a reviewer's taste compares to mine.
As much as the * ratings in Rolling Stone don't agree with my judgement,
after a while you get to know what to expect from different reviewers, just
as you do from the reviewers at downbeat, Cadence, Wire, etc.
>Also, what should we call it? "Penguin" sounds silly. How about
>"Cook and Morton"?
I kind of like Penguin. Especially since I think Cook and Morton is
not giving some of the credit where it belongs.
What's wrong with Penguin's anyway? I bet its not PC to make fun of Penguins
:-) :-)
Glenn W. Lea
> Also, what should we call it? "Penguin" sounds silly. How about
> "Cook and Morton"?
Oh, I like "The Penguin", as in "I wonder what The Penguin says
about 'Chinampas'?".
Glenn
Scott C. Kramer
Besides, I like the Penguin also...sounds as if the Penguin is an expert
of sorts also.
Scott
Simon M.F.
recdb, sigh), on an RCA Black And White twofer. The trio had Elvin Jones
on drums, and was recorded in 1966. Elsewhere on that twofer is another
trio with Oscar Pettiford and Kenny Clarke from 1953 (all this from memory,
and not guaranteed correct). Killer piano. When the Fatha wanted to swing,
no one, young or old, could get in his way...
--
Marcel-Franck Simon min...@usl.com, usl!mingus
" Papa Loko, ou se' van, ou-a pouse'-n ale'
Nou se' papiyon, n'a pote' nouvel bay Agwe' "
John Thomas
|> : Andrew Hill, Point of Departure
|> : Bobby Hutcherson, Dialog
|>
|> I think these two are the same album. At least, every time I grab one to put
|> on, I'm always expecting it to be the other :-) They are also both arguably
|> Dolphy's "Out To Lunch". So I guess it doesn't surprise me to see all three
|> get 5's, although I would have given them only 3-4.
|>
|> All on all, I find their choices, well, weird. You'd kind of expect a short
|> list of 5-star recordings to look more like a set of "essential" and/or
|> "historic" recordings. I'd almost expect them to do a "top down" analysis -
|> agree on the 20 (or however many there were) best recordings, give them 5
|> stars, then maybe go back and individually rate the others.
|>
Well, I just got my copy the other night and yes, their choices are
kind of weird for this type of buyer's guide but I would say more
accurately it is heavily biased.
As you read the text below the star ratings for each entry, you can
readily see the European bias in preference for players, instrumental coloring,
etc. that is also prevalent in the UK magazine The Wire that the authors
were (are) associated with. Not that this is a bad thing, as it is
revealing (to me anyway) for new outlooks on old favorites as well
as rejuvenating interest in records I had initially dismissed.
After all both authors are from the UK...
I also agree with the post that The Penguin is a better reference tool
than the RSRG (Rolling Stone Record Guide, which also uses "star"
ratings) for the simple fact that the reviews have been limited to
two people instead of the myriad in the RSRG. In fact, I think
the RSRG almost is at the opposite pole in terms of star ratings
in that it is too generous -- their highest rating is five stars as well
and indicates to them "an essential recording to any serious, comprehensive
collection" or something like that (kind of like Penguin's four star
rating) but anyways, one example that comes to mind from the RSRG
is the 5 star rating for Jack DeJohnette's ALBUM ALBUM which I found
rather pedestrian even with David Murray on board.
Yet, how can The Penguin rate the live Village Vanguard recording
on Impulse! for Albert Ayler OVER the Freedom recordings (VIBRATIONS,
WITCHES & DEVILS) and the Coppens HILVERSUM SESSION? Again, the
Impulse title definitely shows a more European stamp with the
ensemble consisting of mostly strings (violin, cello, bass).
Although I like the VV album a lot, I just don't see how one can
rate this one over the albums with the transcendent trio of
Sunny Murray, Gary Peacock, and Ayler.
Another example would be the preference for Coltrane's Major Works
(largely due to the presence of both takes of ASCENSION) over
Ornette's FREE JAZZ. Looking at the text for both of those,
the authors claim ASCENSION is more rooted in collective improvisation
(and thus early jazz) than FREE JAZZ which they find rather
mechanical in its free treatment of the theme and solos approach.
During this discussion the point is also made that since European
jazz is more oriented towards collective improv, ASCENSION and
the Euro style have an affinity for one another.
Whatever the biases, this really is a great book and invaluable
in reviewing recordings normally overlooked by this kind of guide.
Sandeep Mehta
In article <1993Jan25....@msus1.msus.edu> ke...@local.host writes:
> Have you any impressions of the LP? I'm assuming you own it. Just curious,
> since if I ever see it, I'll buy it!
Sigh, no :-( I almost got it: Cadence said that they might be able to
dig out a copy; alas they didn't. But, Bill is making me a tape copy! :-)
Dick Burger
>
>: Blakey, Jazz Messengers with Thelonious Monk
>
>Ick. I was pretty excited when I first saw this recording, but having heard
>it, I have to say it is one of my least favorite Blakey albums, and one of my
>least favorite Monk albums.
>
Just wanted to mention that I agree completely. It seems like every record
where Monk and Blakey play together, it's just magic. The music just comes
alive with blakey whacking away back there. So how does this single Monk/Blakey
pairing manage to sound so flat? Equally boggling, how does the Penguin
reviewer manage to pick out the one dud from 25+ years of Blakey/Monk
recordings? Must be more to that record than I can appreciate.
dick burger
Marc Sabatella
: I think they _should_ have used a
: different notation for their Desert Island Picks than 5 stars, though.
: If one takes the 5-stars at their word (DI disks only), I have no
: problem with this list -- those are their personal favorites. I mean,
: if I could only take 38 (or whatever) disks to a desert island, I
: might not take any Ornette either (sorry, Sandeep et al) but I would
: take some Murray and Lacy, neither of whom got 5 stars either, though
: they are deserving, IMO. 38 is a very small subset of 8,000 (or
: whatever) albums.
I see two different interpretations of "Desert Island Picks", though. One is
the highly personal, "this is what I would take, so sue me if I happen to like
Glen Campbell, you can fend for yourselves" type. The other is the "this is
generally recognized as seriously important stuff you shouldn't be without"
type. It seems to me that the Penguin (I like referring to it as "the
Penguin", BTW - it reminds me of the Blues Brothers) is mostly trying to be
somewhat objective for their ratings, but the 5-star ratings seem way too
personal.
Glenn W. Lea
spent two evenings with it. What a Tome! I say give the guys a round
of applause :) Now to the nits...
>an...@Ingres.COM (Andrew Sherman) writes:
>One thing I really like is that there is a consistent voice (or
>should that be two voices?). It's not like the Rolling Stone Jazz
>Record Guide where you don't know if the reviewer of any particular
>artist is their biggest fan or their worst enemy....
Actually, it sounds like one voice to me. I like their use of "we"
throughout, which gives me the feeling that the reviews are joint
opinions, not one or the others'. This could be just a device, I
realize, but it works for me, especially when they say that "we award
a 5th star to....".
As for the star ratings, they say it's a 4 star system. Given that,
though my opinion of many individual ratings may differ, I think
they're fairly consistent. I think they _should_ have used a
different notation for their Desert Island Picks than 5 stars, though.
If one takes the 5-stars at their word (DI disks only), I have no
problem with this list -- those are their personal favorites. I mean,
if I could only take 38 (or whatever) disks to a desert island, I
might not take any Ornette either (sorry, Sandeep et al) but I would
take some Murray and Lacy, neither of whom got 5 stars either, though
they are deserving, IMO. 38 is a very small subset of 8,000 (or
whatever) albums.
In article <1993Jan26.0...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> w...@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (william.j.hery) writes:
>
>In reading the reviews, I don't find them to be completely consistent--in
>fact some records which are co-led are reviewed under both artists and in
>at least one case got different ratings!
Well, they do say in the intro that the ratings are subject to change.
It doesn't surprise me that this would happen occasionally in a book
this size. What changed, btw?
>I find it hard to believe that this is entirely
>the work of two reviewers, especially if the recordings are reviewed with
>any care (meaning several close listenings). At 1200 pages...
[ lots of calculations]
Bill, consider the fact that Cook was editor of the Wire for 8 years
and Morton has been a contributor for much of that. These guys are
professional record reviewers. I think it's very possible for them to
have done this themselves, though I wouldn't rule out them asking,
say, an Ellingon "expert" to provide relative ratings of the
year-by-year Classics releases. Note that in many of the surveys,
they spend much of the text discussing their "picks" and finesse the
description of the "lesser" releases. See the Wayne Shorter
discussion for an example. I really doubt they sat down and listened
to every one of these CDs within the last year or two; many many (or
most) of them were available on LP, which is where C&M probably first
encountered them and developed their opinions.
I, too, am bothered by some of the omissions (as mentioned, Bitches
Brew). I think their criterion for inclusion was current
availability; perhaps they were unable to get a copy in the UK. I
would imagine they would have to rely on distributors and record
companies for their copies and perhaps CBS/Sony just didn't get them a
copy of this. Personally, I wish they had not excluded records for
this reason -- as regular rmb'ers know, "out of print" does not mean
"not available", just "hard to find".
>I suspect that some of the reviews are "cribbed" from other reviews,
>probalby in Wire
I checked some Morton reviews in a handful of old Wires and didn't
find any evidence of cribbing, which surprised the hell out of me.
Finally, the appearance of the "Out to Lunch" simulacra by Hutcherson
and Hill on the DID list shouldn't be a surprise -- "Lunch", after
all, was once picked as the best jazz album of all time by the Wire's
writers.
Glenn
PDON...@esrin.bitnet
and it should considered as such.
I'm a little bit more concerned about the copleteness of the
Penguin Guide. An example? "A Bitches Brew" by Miles is not there!
(and the justification may not be that it is out of print: you
can find it in every store). The same for "Opus the bop" by Stan Getz.
And these are just a couple of examples of records that I would expect
not only to find there but also rated (:-) at least ****.
Seriously: probably less musicians with a most complete discography
would be better. BTW: the Guide is a must in anyway.
Paolo Donzelli
ESA/ESRIN
Frascati Rome
Pdon...@esrin.bitnet
pa...@esis.esrin.esa.it
R. Lynn Rardin
>Well, my copy finally arrived ("The Penguin has Waddled") and I've
>spent two evenings with it. What a Tome! I say give the guys a round
>of applause :) Now to the nits...
[discussion about aspects of The Penguin deleted]
>I, too, am bothered by some of the omissions (as mentioned, Bitches
>Brew). I think their criterion for inclusion was current
>availability; perhaps they were unable to get a copy in the UK. I
>would imagine they would have to rely on distributors and record
>companies for their copies and perhaps CBS/Sony just didn't get them a
>copy of this. Personally, I wish they had not excluded records for
>this reason -- as regular rmb'ers know, "out of print" does not mean
>"not available", just "hard to find".
>
>Glenn
Not only that, Glenn, but you never know when things that are currently oop
will suddenly be back in print as a result of a record companies' reissue
programs! I suppose if they publish regular updates to The Penguin (didn't I
see promise of this somewhere??) they'll pick these up in later editions...
-Lynn (rar...@auriga.rose.brandeis.edu)
Simon M.F.
Well, I must think completely differently from you folks, because that
album has always struck me as the perfect combination of the subtle
personal interaction between Blakey and Monk on the one hand, and
Blakey's powerhouse drumming with the Messengers on the other hand.
For instance, dig Blakey's light cymbal accents during Monk solos,
that answer the pianist without overfilling the spaces he leaves
between notes. At the same time, dig Blakey's two solos on "Evidence",
where he keeps the time rooted while flying all over the place.
And how about Johnny Griffin's playing, prefiguring those transcendent
Five Spot recordings of a year later?
To each his own, I guess.
Blakey, Art Atlantic 1278 (LP)
Title: The Jazz Messengers with Thelonious Monk
Recorded: 5/14/1957 - 5/15/1957 at Unknown Studio, New York, NY
Released: 1958
With: Bill Hardman, Trumpet
Johnny Griffin, Tenor Sax
Thelonious Monk (leader), Piano
Spanky DeBrest, Bass
Art Blakey (leader), Drums
Contents: 1) Evidence ( 06:42)
2) In Walked Bud ( 06:38)
3) Blue Monk ( 07:49)
4) I Mean You ( 07:58)
5) Rhythm-A-Ning ( 07:16)
6) Purple Shades ( 07:39)
Total: ( 44:02)
Purchased: No Date
Simon M.F.
> ...In fact, I think
> the [Rolling Stone Record Guide is] too generous -- their highest rating
> is five stars as well and indicates to them "an essential recording to
> any serious, comprehensive collection" or something like that (kind of
> like Penguin's four star
> rating) but anyways, one example that comes to mind from the RSRG
> is the 5 star rating for Jack DeJohnette's ALBUM ALBUM which I found
> rather pedestrian even with David Murray on board.
The problem with rating that album is that it had just been released when
the book came out. So the reviewer decided on the rating based on a relatively
short review time. Early opinions can change a lot, even for a conscentious
reviewer who takes the time to listen to the music several times. Being able
to evaluate music within its own context requires understanding of that context,
and that in turn requires distance, typically of several years.
That's the problem with star ratings in encyclopedic works like Penguin or
RS; it creates the illusion that all n-star records are of the same level of
quality, and that will never be true. If the 5star standard is Bird's Dial
recordings then *nothing*, except perhaps Louis' Hot Five and Sevens, Ornette's
original quartet, Trane's 1961 Village Vanguard tapes, Ayler's Peacock/Murray
trio, and Duke's 1939-40 RCAs deserve 5 stars (maybe add Lester Young/Count
Basie's Kansas City 7 session). If the reviewer can assign the highest rating
only to generally recognized classics, then no book cover music recorded after
1970 or so, because there has not been enough time to digest and absorb the
music from after that time.
I also react to the notion that there is such a thing as too many 5star
records. I estimate that a bare-bone jazz/blues collection that touches
on most major styles would require ~200 records; a representative collection
that covers most major stylists and selected minor ones in some depth,
would take ~2000 records; a comprehensive collection that probes deeply into
all major strands of the music, most minor ones, and is complete with respect
to selected favorites, would run ~20000 records; and to be complete, i.e. have
most everything that is of some value, would easily reach ~200000 discs.
I make these estimates based on the size of my collection, which is just barely
representative at 2400 records, and that of the Institute of Jazz Studies,
which is somewhere over 120,000 records, and the people there bemoan how
much they don't have.
So, if 5star means "should be in a serious, comprehensive collection", and
you go by the rule that "the best" means the top 10-20% (i.e. 80th-90th
percentile), you should have 2000-4000 5star records.
For books like Penguin or RS, that approach the music encyclopedically, I
think an attitude that "there may not be more than n top grades" is bad
and the smaller n, the worse it is. You wind up forcing yourself to tone
down your own enthusiasm, to be too cool to admit that you like the stuff.
Which IMO is when you should stop reviewing it.
Jeff Miller
gave it to me - her father didn't like it and thought I might). Overall it's
okay. My real complaint is that it almost seems that when the album was
recorded no one was able to hear what anyone else was doing. Johnny Griffin
on every solo plays blindingly fast from start to end. Bill Hartman (sp?)
plays [IMHO] Dixieland styled trumpet on every tune. Monk is Monk, not playing
at all behind most solos, and when he does, he plays as if it's his solo. When
he does solo, is mostly whole tone scale based solos. Blakey must have been
in another room, because he just bops away without regard to anyone's solos.
So much for my 2 cents.
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
| |
| "Nuke the unborn gay whales!" | mill...@cs.colostate.edu | Jeff Miller |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|
Sandeep Mehta
> Marcel wrote:
> I also react to the notion that there is such a thing as too many
> 5star records. I estimate that a bare-bone jazz/blues collection
> that touches on most major styles would require ~200 records; a
> representative collection that covers most major stylists and
> selected minor ones in some depth, would take ~2000 records; a
> comprehensive collection that probes deeply into all major strands
> of the music, most minor ones, and is complete with respect to
> selected favorites, would run ~20000 records; and to be complete,
> i.e. have most everything that is of some value, would easily reach
> ~200000 discs.
Heh, heh :-) Marcel the last time we spoke about this you said
150/1500/15000/150000 albums respectively!! :-) :-) Of course I agree
completely and I'm always at a *complete* loss when someone getting
into jazz (due to me or otherwise) asks for a master list that does
justice but it be short and hence easy on the wallet!! :-) Yeah, I
know, that problem of having "catching up completely" :-)
Anyway to add more fuel to the fire here's what Mark Gridley (sp?)
recommends for starters in his short list which he claims covers most
styles in the text JAZZ STYLES. Apparently a longer discography is
alluded to but I couldn't find it.
Use this list @ your own risk :-) Many items are OOP or in some other
reissued form.
===========================================================================
The Smithsonian Collection of Classic Jazz (Smithsonian, 2100)
Louis Armstrong and Earl Hines, 1928 (Smithsonian 2100)
Sidney Bechet - Master Musician (RCA AXM2-5516)
The Bix Beiderbecke Story Vol. 2 - Bix and Tram (Columbia CL 845)
This Is Duke Ellington (RCA VPM 6042)
The Best of Count Basie (MCA 2-4050)
Duke Ellington - The Blanton Webster Band (RCA Bluebird 5691)
Big Band Jazz (Smithsonian 2200)
Coleman Hawkins - Body and Soul (RCA Bluebird 5658-1)
Benny Goodman - Carnegie Hall Jazz Concert (Columbia OSL-160)
Dizzy Gillespie - The Development of an American Artist (Smithsonian 2004)
The Genius of Bud Powell (Verve VE2-2506)
Charlie Parker - Bird - The Savoy Recordings (Savoy 2201)
Thelonious Monk - The Complete Blue Note Recordings (Mosaic MR4-101)
Miles Davis - The Complete Birth of the Cool (Capitol N-16168)
Lee Konitz/Lennie Tristano - First Sessions (Prestige P-24081)
Gerry Mulligan - Complete Pacific Jazz and Capitol Recordings (Mosaic MR5-102)
Dave Brubeck - The Fantasy Years (Atlantic SD2-317, Fantasy/OJC 046)
Sonny Rollins - Saxophone Colossus and More (Prestige P-24050)
Clifford Brown - and Max Roach (Mercury EXPR 1033)
Art Blakey - and the Jazz Messengers (Columbia PC 37021)
Charles Mingus - Better Git It In Your Soul (Columbia CG 30628)
Ornette Coleman - The Shape of Jazz to Come (Atlantic SD 1317)
Miles Davis - Kind of Blue (Columbia PC 8163, CJ 40579)
John Coltrane - Giant Steps (Atlantic SD 1311)
Bill Evans - The Village Vanguard Sessions (Milestone M-47002)
John Coltrane - Live at Birdland (Impulse! 29015)
Sun Ra - The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra vol. 1 & 2 (ESP Disk 1014, 1017)
Albert Ayler - Spiritual Unity (ESP Disk 1002)
Miles Davis - Sorcerer (Columbia PC 9532)
Miles Davis - Live Evil (Columbia CG 30954)
Chick Corea - Now He Sings, Now He Sobs (Liberty LN 10057)
Cecil Taylor - Fly, Fly, Fly (Pausa 7108)
Keith Jarrett - Staircase (ECM 2-1090)
Weather Report - I Sing The Body Electric (Columbia PC 31352)
Mike Rhine
>Dick Burger and Marc Sabatella express dislike of that 1957 album.
>Well, I must think completely differently from you folks, because that
>album has always struck me as the perfect combination of the subtle
>personal interaction between Blakey and Monk on the one hand, and
>Blakey's powerhouse drumming with the Messengers on the other hand.
>For instance, dig Blakey's light cymbal accents during Monk solos,
>
> " Papa Loko, ou se' van, ou-a pouse'-n ale'
> Nou se' papiyon, n'a pote' nouvel bay Agwe' "
i was trying to think of a eloquent way to to say the same things mr. simon
has stated...i agree...that particular recording has taught me alot. i must
confess, for me it was an acquired taste...my brother gave it to me and said
"...you gotta dig this!". so eventually, i did :-)...
...
--
...
mrh...@thor.gatech.edu...: ppl...404-894-4660...: fax...404-894-9548
Phil Miller
> I missed the start of this thread, but I also have this CD (a friend of mine
> gave it to me - her father didn't like it and thought I might). Overall it's
> okay. My real complaint is that it almost seems that when the album was
> recorded no one was able to hear what anyone else was doing. Johnny Griffin
> on every solo plays blindingly fast from start to end. Bill Hartman (sp?)
> plays [IMHO] Dixieland styled trumpet on every tune. Monk is Monk, not playing
> at all behind most solos, and when he does, he plays as if it's his solo. When
> he does solo, is mostly whole tone scale based solos. Blakey must have been
> in another room, because he just bops away without regard to anyone's solos.
You forgot to mention the bass player was out in the parking lot.
Marc_Sabatella
Since people seem to be jumping to the defense of the Blakey/Monk album, I
figured I'd give some of the particular reasons I don't like it so much. Most
importantly, Monk manages to be almost predictable - one of the few recordings
I can say that about. Second, being billed as the "Jazz Messengers", I
expected something more like Blakey's regular bands - intereting arrangements,
and so on. What it sounds like instead is a generic jam session that happens
to have Blakey and Monk together. There are plenty of better versions of that
around.
Marc
Gordon H. Fick
>Here's the list of Penguin 5 Star recordings. Keep in mind that only
>
>Armstrong, Hot 5s and 7s Vol I, II, and III (on JSP #312,313,314)
>Basie, Original Decca Recordings
>Blakey, Jazz Messengers with Thelonious Monk
>Peter Brotzmann, Machine Gun
Betty Carter, Audience (Verve)
>Coltrane, Love Supreme
>Coltrane, Major Works (Impulse 3 CD set with both Ascencions, Om,
> Selflessness, and Kulu Se Mama)
>Davis, Kind of Blue
>Dolphy, Out To Lunch
>Ellington, Blanton-Webster Years
>Ellington, Afro Eurasian Eclipse
>Bill Evans, Sunday at the Village Vanguard
>Bill Evans, Waltz For Debbie
>Ganelin Trio, Catalogue: Live in East Germany
Lars Gullin, Volume Five (Dragon 181)
>Andrew Hill, Point of Departure
>Bobby Hutcherson, Dialog
Steve Lacy and Mal Waldron, Sempre Amore (Soul Note)
>George Lewis, Homage to Charlie Parker
>Shelly Manne, At the Blackhawk (all five discs - OJC 656 to 660)
>John McLaughlin, Extrapolation (1969, with John Surman)
>Mingus, The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
>Monk, Genius Vol I
>Monk, Complete Riverside Recordings
Jelly Roll Morton, 1923-24 Piano Solos (Fountain)
>Jelly Roll Morton, Volume I (on JSP records)
>Fats Navaro, The Fabulous Fats Navaro, Vol I
>King Oliver, Volume I 1923-29
>Parker, Charlie Parker Story (Savoy)
>Parker, Complet on Dial Vol 1, 4, 5 (Spotlight LPs)
>Parker, Legendary Dial Masters (Stash CD)
>Rollins, Saxophone Colossus
>Alexander von Schlippenbach, Pakistani Pomade
>Sun Ra, Jazz in Silhouette
>Art Tatum, Complete Pablo Solo Masterpieces
>Edward Vesala, Lumi
>Vienna Art Orchestra, The Minimalism of Erik Satie
>Larry Young, Unity
>Zorn, The Big Gundown
>
The Lacy/Waldron was given ****(*) listed under Lacy then it
received **** listed under Waldron.
--
Gordon H. Fick - Department of Community Health Sciences
University of Calgary - Calgary, Alberta CANADA T2N 4N1 - (403) 220-6939