Lee Morgan & Donald Byrd
Ira Chineson
I don't necessarily disagree with that assessment (as if anyone cares)
but
I'd love to read an explanation by someone who knows what
they're talking about or at least is able to fake it.
Michael Fitzgerald
wrote:
Probably because Lee Morgan had the good business sense to get dead
rather than crank out crap for a couple decades. That kind of
publicity works wonders. It's better to burn out than to fade away or
something like that.
I guess that's the overall perspective. If you want to talk about
specifics, like how they each were playing in 1957 or something, we
could get into that too. I like comparing "Blue Train" to "Sonny's
Crib."
Lee was a precocious natural talent. Donald seemed to place a greater
value on education - he did his master's degree in the 1960's, studied
composition with Nadia Boulanger, then did his PhD. I can't see Lee
ever doing any of that. Lee wrote some nice catchy tunes, but other
than that he was a hot soloist.
Did I fake it OK? There's a lot more to delve into here.
Mike
Ira Chineson
> Probably because Lee Morgan had the good business sense to get dead
> rather than crank out crap for a couple decades. That kind of
> publicity works wonders. It's better to burn out than to fade away or
> something like that.
>
> I guess that's the overall perspective. If you want to talk about
> specifics, like how they each were playing in 1957 or something, we
> could get into that too. I like comparing "Blue Train" to "Sonny's
> Crib."
I'd love to read that kind of comparison. I knew that Morgan came to a
tragic
end at Slugs while Byrd went on to make fusion albums in the 70s and later
get a law degree. But
I always wondered why Byrd who was on so many hard bop albums in the 50s
and 60s
seems never to be mentioned with the same affection as Morgan and/or
Hubbard. To my
ears he's almost as impressive, yet I've never seen an analysis of his work
or a
comparison with his contemporary Morgan.
John K
there's a Messengers' mystique involved.
"Ira Chineson" <ira...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3BCA42F2...@earthlink.net...
Michael Fitzgerald
wrote:
>for what it's worth, morgan & hubbard were Jazz Messengers alumni. maybe
>there's a Messengers' mystique involved.
It seems you are unaware that Byrd was too. He was with the band from
1955 to 1956, recording with them several times for Columbia. Lee
Morgan replaced Byrd for a minute before Bill Hardman came in.
Morgan's longer stint was after Hardman and before Hubbard.
Mike
Fabio Rojas
I'll try to fake it:
- Lee Morgan was a real trumpet prodigy. He was gigging with some
of the greats during his teens.
- He participated on some seminal jazz recordings such as
"Blue Train" and was a central proponent of the BLue note sound
through his recordings as leader.
- Damn, subjectively, I find his playing funky and exciting. Not to say
Byrd was a great player, but Lee Morgan had something special.
Fabio
In article <3BCA2A25...@earthlink.net>,
Tom Walls
fitz...@eclipse.net says...
Close enough for jazz... as we used to say.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Imre Gyorfi
sixties.
Hubbard could be funky, hot ( Jazz Messenger ) and innovative and daring.
Morgan was hot and funky, that's all. Byrd ?
"John K" <cat...@worldnet.att.net> schreef in bericht
news:J1sy7.123812$W8.31...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Mark Bradley
> Ira Chineson <ira...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Why is Lee Morgan more critically acclaimed than Donald Byrd?
Well, because Lee was a heck of a lot better, that's why. While
Donald was a capable player he was no match for Lee in technique,
creativity, or artistic expression. The proof is in the pudding...
looking back to both of their catalogs of work-- Lee's still sounds
fresh and exhilerating as ever, while Donald's sounds dated, his later
forays into fusion notwithstanding. Donald's best album is probably
"Free Flight." It's OK but it shows Donald for what he was at the
time-- a competent but rather unremarkable and in the ending anaylsis,
over-hyped talent.
Lee's another story, however. One of the great trumpet players of all
time as well as a major figure in jazz. He had a unique brassy,
impetuous, swaggering, in-your-face style that made him one of a kind
(a trumpet players trumpet player, in other words). Albums I'd
recommend in particular are "The Big Beat" under Art Blakey's name on
Blue Note. With Lee as a leader: "Cornbread," "Search For The New
Land," "Lee-way," "The Sidewinder"-- the latter being the one that
gave him something along the lines of national recogintion because the
title track was played on a VW commercial or something like that back
in the 60s. "Expoopident" is another excellent album. There are
many, many other fine recordings with Lee as a session leader or
sideman that are also excellent.
Not to go on and on heaping the accolades on Lee at the expense of
Donald Byrd, but since that was the original premise-- there is really
no comparison between the two-- it's like comparing a Major League
Hall of Famer to a bush league "player of the week." Donald was wise
to go into education.
Paul Okami
> Donald Byrd, but since that was the original premise-- there is really
> no comparison between the two-- it's like comparing a Major League
> Hall of Famer to a bush league "player of the week." Donald was wise
> to go into education.
>
>
fiery. The reason he went into education was NOT because he was a bush
league player but because he was ALREADY educated and had the good sense to
get into a career that would earn him a steady living.
Paul Okami
JC Martin
news:JmIy7.11702$8a6.3...@typhoon.we.rr.com...
> > Not to go on and on heaping the accolades on Lee at the expense of
> > Donald Byrd, but since that was the original premise-- there is really
> > no comparison between the two-- it's like comparing a Major League
> > Hall of Famer to a bush league "player of the week." Donald was wise
> > to go into education.
> >
> >
> Donald Byrd was a great player, easily the equal of Lee Morgan,
I have to disagree. Byrd was a middleweight. Morgan was a
heavyweight...just a much better improviser and with more rhythmic facility.
-JC
roycass
"Mark Bradley" <jazz...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:b2ca706d.01101...@posting.google.com...
Martin Milgrim
Grachan Moncur's EVOLUTION Blue Note session) are stronger than anything
I ever heard from Byrd. However, I would hesitate to use the word
"heavyweight" in connection with Lee. To me, the modern jazz trumpet
heavyweights are Dizzy, Fats and Clifford. (Miles is in a category unto
himself, not as a trumpet virtuoso, more so as a great stylistic
innovator and influence - speaking of which, has anybody been listening
to Kenny Dorham recently? What an underrated, thoroughly musical
player). Don't know how I would conveniently categorize Lee, except
that I put him at the top of a wonderful group of trumpeters that
include Byrd, Woody Shaw, Blue Mitchell and Freddie Hubbard.
Martin
Michael Fitzgerald
wrote:
>Not to go on and on heaping the accolades on Lee at the expense of
>Donald Byrd, but since that was the original premise-- there is really
>no comparison between the two-- it's like comparing a Major League
>Hall of Famer to a bush league "player of the week." Donald was wise
>to go into education.
This is utterly ridiculous.
Find the album "The Cat Walk" or "Royal Flush" - both are 1961 Donald
Byrd albums on Blue Note (now together in a Mosaic boxed set). This is
some of the finest hard bop music ever made. It's not hampered by
Byrd, the so-called bush leaguer. Please.
Maybe check out the 1956 Hank Mobley Sextet album that has both Byrd
and Morgan side by side. No matter who you feel is the stronger player
or whose soloing you prefer, saying there is "no comparison" is just
not apt.
Byrd's work with the Jazz Messengers holds up just fine - listen to
the track "Nica's Dream" on Columbia. Bush league. Yeah, right.
And it seems that was a hell of a long "week" - Byrd was playing with
the very greatest jazz musicians from 1955 when he came to New York
all the way through 1964 when he took his leave of absence from the
scene. Care to name another trumpeter who was in the bands of Blakey
AND Roach, played live with Monk, Coltrane, Rollins, Pettiford,
McLean, et al.? Not to mention the recording sessions - probably over
150 in that decade.
Donald Byrd was certainly one of the top 15 trumpeters playing hard
bop between 1955 and 1965 -
Lee Morgan
Donald Byrd
Kenny Dorham
Freddie Hubbard
Booker Little
Nat Adderley
Art Farmer
Blue Mitchell
Dizzy Gillespie
Miles Davis
Clark Terry
Thad Jones
Joe Gordon
Dizzy Reece
Johnny Coles
Carmell Jones
Ray Copeland
Idrees Sulieman
Bill Hardman
(off the top of my head - no ranking intended - and please don't say I
forgot whoever)
For some more established documentation, the 1957 Down Beat Critics
Poll "New Star" award went to Byrd. Morgan placed third after Art
Farmer and ahead of Tommy Simms (who?). The next year, the "New Star"
went to Art Farmer, with Morgan a distant second. Morgan finally won
in 1959 (previous winners become ineligible to win). In the 1957
Readers Poll, Byrd placed 9th compared to Morgan's 25th. BTW, by 1964
(maybe even earlier), neither Byrd nor Morgan were even placing in the
Critics Poll.
I'm not arguing that Byrd was a better trumpeter than Morgan. But the
two are clearly comparable. If someone were arguing the opposite
position ("Morgan ain't nothing"), I'd jump in the same way.
In my view, Morgan had a rapid ascendency then began a decline when he
got involved in drugs. In 1956-57, Lee was at his peak. Later on, his
tone and articulation suffered and he became far less inventive in
terms of lines. He relied more on crutches and cliches to get his
point across. As early as 1960, he was straining. He still made
wonderful records and was absolutely one of the top players, but when
I hold his soloing of that period up against what he was doing on,
say, "The Cooker," the loss is evident. Please don't misunderstand: I
still love him and have all the records, but it's my opinion that,
like many, Lee didn't maintain the high standard he established.
Here's another thing to think about with Byrd and Morgan - Donald Byrd
basically came on the scene in 1955. Clifford Brown was still alive
and well, pretty much the king of the hill as far as hard bop trumpet
goes. Come June 1956, Brown is dead and everyone is in shock. November
1956 sees the recording debut of Morgan, who then assumes the mantle.
When Byrd arrived, the jazz world wasn't looking for a new trumpet
sensation. When Morgan arrived, they were. Timing is everything.
Mike
WWise72606
I whole-heartedly agree!!!!!!>
>For some more established documentation, the 1957 Down Beat Critics
>Poll "New Star" award went to Byrd. Morgan placed third after Art
>Farmer and ahead of Tommy Simms (who?).
Tommy Simms was a Philly trumpet player, I wonder is this the same guy.
He was a very good traditional player.
Wilmer
Michael Fitzgerald
>Tommy Simms was a Philly trumpet player, I wonder is this the same guy.
>He was a very good traditional player.
I can find mention of a trumpeter Tommy Simms who played with the
Lunceford band in 1949 (post Lunceford) and (another?) trumpeter Tommy
Simms who played on a 1970 record by drummer Ed Ashley.
Why this person (if indeed it's all one guy) was so highly rated in
1957, I couldn't tell you.
Mike
WWise72606
>Lunceford band in 1949 (post Lunceford) and (another?) trumpeter Tommy
>Simms who played on a 1970 record by drummer Ed Ashley.
The Tommy Simms I knew in Philly did play with Lunceford. He never left Philly.
We played in some bands together.
I don't know the Ashley recording.
Wilmer
John K
messenger, though briefly. maybe i should have said that he didn't make a
splash there, unlike morgan & hubbard who first gained acclaim with the
messengers. but all this was a bit before my time, so i'm speculating.
jk
"Michael Fitzgerald" <fitz...@eclipse.net> wrote in message
news:runkstor0vqtklrtg...@4ax.com...
Mark Bradley
bush leaguer (now me, "outstanding in my field" here among the
mid-western prairie, I'm what you could more accuarately call a bush
leaguer). But, in case you couldn't tell, as a jazz fan I've never
been a big fan of Mr.Byrd. He was a strong be-bopper, to be sure,
but I just never found him to show anything in the way of
individuality and could never figure out why he was leading his own
albums. Looking at the big picture I also have a hard time
overlooking his later horrendous efforts to make the big duckets by
going on the funk train later on. He made some really baaaad albums
later on in the late 60s and early 70s, and seemed to manage to pimp a
lot of records-- he was very popular there for a while. I don't blame
him so much for going "funk" and being popular-- going mainstream.
Others like Freddie Hubbard and Stanley Turrentine did the same thing.
At the time this was the only way a jazz artist would get a record
company to carry you (*), and a man needs to eat; but while Turrentine
and Hubbard (among others) still managed to produce a few good
recordings despite the pressure to "go commercial" Donald failed
miserably. I was listening to Donald's "Black Byrd" on Blue Note a
few weeks ago. To paraphrase Tom Sawyer if he was living today, "It
sucks somethin' powerful."
I regard Donald Byrd as something of 50s, 60s version of Wallace
Roney-- where's the beef? Why are these guys making albums under
their own name? They simply aren't good enough for that (in my humble
opinion). Donald's "best" work just isn't all that great, and to
paraphrase boxer Larry Holmes, "He can't carry Lee Morgan's jock
strap." (not that he'd particularly want to). But to assuage those
Byrd fans whose feathers I ruffled by calling him a bush leaguer, I
will concede-- he is one of those old Blue Note legends, right or
wrong. So... among the pantheon of great Blue Note recording artists
of the 50s and 60s-- Donald was more along the lines of a utility
infielder.
Mark
http://jazztrpt.freeservers.com
(*) Speaking of jazz greats doing whatever they could the the 60s and
70s to make ends meet-- I remember seeing Blue Mitchell playing with
the John Mayall Blues Band in the early 70s (what a waste of a great
talent). This was no doubt the best gig Blue could get at the time
and he was lucky to have it. I hope he at least made some money doing
it, they played to thousands at a sold out arena of wannabe hippie
rock 'n rollers. On that tour Blue probably played to the biggest
audiences of his career and hopefully got some exposure.
Jack Woker
> few weeks ago. To paraphrase Tom Sawyer if he was living today, "It
> sucks somethin' powerful."
I've heard that the tracks that became "Black Byrd" were originally slated
for Lee Morgan, but Morgan died before having the opportunity to record his
contribution. The project was then offered to Byrd, who went gold.
I wonder if your assessment of Byrd's abilities might be different if he had
died at Slug's instead of Morgan?
Byrd takes a lot of flack for his commercial efforts, but I can think of a
few memorable performances he turned in:
1. I once played "I'm a Fool To Want You" from "Royal Flush" on my show as a
blindfold contest - nobody got it, and later one of my listeners said that
it sounded "too good" to be Byrd.
2. He plays magnificently on Sonny Clark's "Sonny's Crib".
3. He turns in very fine performances on his recordings with Horace Silver,
notably on "Six Pieces of Silver".
In the 1950's, Byrd was one of the most promising up-and-coming young
trumpeters to follow in the wake of Clifford Brown. Perhaps his commercial
efforts from "A New Perspective" and after have colored his reputation.
jack
Glenn Wilson
Glenn
--
www.jazzmaniac.com
Visit the Tuxers
New MP3s
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"roycass" <roy...@rcn.com> wrote in message
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Martin Milgrim
LIVE AT THE CAFE BOHEMIA and Blakey's 1st session on Columbia simply
titled THE JAZZ MESSENGERS. Among his own dates, I really dig BYRD IN
HAND and FREE FORM, both on Blue Note. He was deeply influenced by
Clifford but so was Lee.
Martin
Ron Hearn
Some of my favorite Byrd is on Red Garland's "Soul Junction" with
Coltrane. Byrd more than holds his own in this company. Definitely, a
player unjustly overlooked mostly for the direction he took later in
his career. A heavy trumpet player in his early years IMHO.
Ron
Jeff Beer
"Out of this World" with Pepper Adams.
"Black Pearls" with John Coltrane.
Jeff
Skip Elliott Bowman
"Jeff Beer" <jb...@interaccess.com> wrote in message
news:tsprs5m...@corp.supernews.com...
Also: "Donald Byrd Quintet Parisian Thoroughfare", recorded live 22 October
1962 at the Olympia in Paris, France. Donald Byrd, trumpet; Bobby Jaspar,
tenor; Walter Davis Jr., piano; Doug Watkins, bass; Art Taylor, drums.
Set list: Salt Peanuts, Parisian Thoroughfare, Stardust, 52nd Street Theme,
At This Time, Formidable, Two Bass It (sic), Salt Peanuts.
Every note right and exact.
Luther
news:b2ca706d.01101...@posting.google.com...
> (*) Speaking of jazz greats doing whatever they could the the 60s and
> 70s to make ends meet-- I remember seeing Blue Mitchell playing with
> the John Mayall Blues Band in the early 70s (what a waste of a great
> talent).
Ernie Watts was in that same line-up.
Luther
Nou Dadoun
The lineup I saw also had Freddie Robinson on guitar; maybe you thought
it was a waste of talent but the show I saw at Convocation Hall in Toronto
was exactly as billed: Jazz-Blues Fusion with some smokin' blowing all-round.
I don't recall Blue Mitchell looking particularly embarrassed...
-----------------------------------------------------> Nou
====
Nou Dadoun | dad...@cs.ubc.ca | Black Swan Records,
Dpt. of Computer Science,|*******************| 3209 W. Broadway,
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(604) 323-5822 | http://www.blackswan.bc.ca | (604) 734-2828 / 734-2899 [FAX]
Ebay seller:blackswanrecords; Current online auctions linked from our web page.
Michael Fitzgerald
<skip...@teleport.com> wrote:
>Also: "Donald Byrd Quintet Parisian Thoroughfare", recorded live 22 October
>1962 at the Olympia in Paris, France.
Pretty sure this is 1958, not 1962. Byrd spent an extended period in
Europe in the second half of 1958.
Mike
Giz Bowe
wrote:
>> I was listening to Donald's "Black Byrd" on Blue Note a
>> few weeks ago. To paraphrase Tom Sawyer if he was living today, "It
>> sucks somethin' powerful."
>
>I've heard that the tracks that became "Black Byrd" were originally slated
>for Lee Morgan, but Morgan died before having the opportunity to record his
>contribution. The project was then offered to Byrd, who went gold.
"Impressive" isn't the word that comes to mind with Byrd, but "solid,"
"melodic," and "musical" do, all in the bop idiom. Many of the albums
under his name are very fine (not to mention the Messenger stuff as
well as others), but when you start comparing players to Lee Morgan,
most are going to come up short! This shouldn't detract from the great
music Byrd has made.
There are several notably weak pop efforts, beginning with and
including "Black Byrd," but there a couple of electric things I enjoy
thoroughly -- "Kofi" comes to mind -- if Miles hadn't already been
there & done that, we might be looking at Byrd a little differently.
Giz -- fan of Byrd & Lee ( & Freddie, Bill Hardman & & & & . . . . .)
Charles Martin in Seattle
>
>The lineup I saw also had Freddie Robinson on guitar; maybe you thought
>it was a waste of talent but the show I saw at Convocation Hall in Toronto
>was exactly as billed: Jazz-Blues Fusion with some smokin' blowing all-round.
>I don't recall Blue Mitchell looking particularly embarrassed...
He was probably socking so much money away he didn't mind putting up with
the lameness of Mayall's (ugh) singing.
Freddie Robinson was fun to listen to, though.
o-------= Charles Martin =--o
Lcfpsf
Mike's list of the top Hard Bop trumpet players is a good one .Two fine trumpet
players left off his list are Tommy Turrentine and Dupree Bolton. I suppose
that Bolton deserves to be left off as he recorded so very little.
Tommy Turrentine is another matter. He has some wonderful recordings on Blue
Note with his brother Stanley , Jackie McLean, Sonny Clark, Horace Silver, Lou
Donaldson, and Horace Parlan. He has a recording under his own name on Time,
and also recorded with Max Roach.
<< Donald Byrd was certainly one of the top 15 trumpeters playing hard
bop between 1955 and 1965 -
Lee Morgan
Donald Byrd
Kenny Dorham
Freddie Hubbard
Booker Little
Nat Adderley
Art Farmer
Blue Mitchell
Dizzy Gillespie
Miles Davis
Clark Terry
Thad Jones
Joe Gordon
Dizzy Reece
Johnny Coles
Carmell Jones
Ray Copeland
Idrees Sulieman
Bill Hardman
>>
Peter Friedman