Rhtythm Changes in B-flat
Bret Arenson
I just want to know what you think on this rather unimportant but often
debated point.
Does rhythym changes have to be in B-flat?
----------------------------------------------------------
Bret Arenson * Chameleon Productions
-------------------
(415) 331-5898 * manor...@chameleonprod.com
-------------------------------
http://www.chameleonprod.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------
Doug Wamble
Marc Sabatella wrote:
>
> Bret Arenson wrote:
>
> > Does rhythym changes have to be in B-flat?
>
> except eat and breathe.
>
> The most obvious non-Bb example I can think of is Duke Ellington's
> "Cottontail", which I usually see in Ab. Also, I've written a tune called
> "Monk's Got Rhythm", which is basically rhythm changes in F crossed with a bit
> of "Well, You Needn't".
Then there's Blue Mitchell's calypso rhythm changes called
"Fungii Mama" in F.
--
Doug Wamble-Guitarist
Swin...@nwu.edu
http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~cds653
CLAY MOORE
Bret Arenson wrote:
>
> I just want to know what you think on this rather unimportant but often
> debated point.
>
>
> Bret Arenson * Chameleon Productions
> -------------------
> (415) 331-5898 * manor...@chameleonprod.com
> -------------------------------
> http://www.chameleonprod.com/
> --------------------------------------------------------------
Of course not, it just happens to be the easiest key for tenor sax
and trumpet, two of the most common jazz axes. That said, I think
you'll find most RC tunes written in Bb, although I've seen them in
C, F, and Ab I believe.
Clay
Marc Sabatella
Bret Arenson wrote:
> Does rhythym changes have to be in B-flat?
As my old driver's ed teacher used to say, you don't *have* to do anything
except eat and breathe.
The most obvious non-Bb example I can think of is Duke Ellington's
"Cottontail", which I usually see in Ab. Also, I've written a tune called
"Monk's Got Rhythm", which is basically rhythm changes in F crossed with a bit
of "Well, You Needn't".
But if someone calls "rhythm changes" at a jam, and doesn't specify a key,
there is probably no need to ask - just assume Bb.
--
Marc Sabatella
--
ma...@fc.hp.com
http://www.fortnet.org/~marc/
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
Michael Fitzgerald
>> > Does rhythym changes have to be in B-flat?
>> The most obvious non-Bb example I can think of is Duke Ellington's
>> "Cottontail", which I usually see in Ab.
Not sure why, as the original RCA recording is in Bb. Somehow it ended
up in the wrong key in the Real Book, which falls into the hands of
people who unfortunately don't bother to consult the source.
But Bud Powell's "Wail" is in Eb.
Mike
Jeff Volkman
On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Michael Fitzgerald wrote:
> >> The most obvious non-Bb example I can think of is Duke Ellington's
> >> "Cottontail", which I usually see in Ab.
>
> Not sure why, as the original RCA recording is in Bb.
It was probably transcribed by a trumpet player.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <329C4B...@chameleonprod.com> Bret Arenson <manor...@chameleonprod.com> writes:
>I just want to know what you think on this rather unimportant but often
>debated point.
>
It's rhythm changes, not rhythm key. Who cares what key it's in?
Tony Mountifield
In article <Pine.PTX.3.95c.96112...@carson.u.washington.edu>,
Wrong way round. The trumpet would be playing it in C, not Ab.
Now if the trumpet player was reading a concert chart written in Bb and
everyone else followed by ear......
Tony.
--
Tony Mountifield | Email: ton...@dmv.co.uk | PGP fingerprint:
Digi-Media Vision Ltd | Tel: +44 1703 573121 | 56 2C 65 C5 90 31 23 D9
Eastleigh, England | Fax: +44 1703 573100 | 6A 7C 7F 0E EB FD 9B 87
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Beer
Good Bait is in Bb, but instead of the usual bridge, they play the
A section in Eb for the bridge.
Jeff
Jeff Volkman
On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Doug Wamble wrote:
[snip]
> and since the
> Euro-avant-garde people hadn't invented bullshit yet, he
> was forced to play actual music.
What does this mean?
> So they recorded the tune
> in it's original key of Ab and sped the tape up to give the
> tempo more of an edge.
>
> You guys need to check your history...geez...
It's on my "to do" list.
-Jeff
Jeff Volkman
On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Tony Mountifield wrote:
> Jeff Volkman <ve...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
> > It was probably transcribed by a trumpet player.
>
> Wrong way round. The trumpet would be playing it in C, not Ab.
>
> Now if the trumpet player was reading a concert chart written in Bb and
> everyone else followed by ear......
Yeah, that's what I meant. ;-)
Doug Wamble
Doug wrote...
> >>>>What _really_ happened was that Ben Webster had a hard time
> playing over the changes at a quick tempo, and since the
> Euro-avant-garde people hadn't invented bullshit yet,<<<<
gj...@aol.com wrote:
> OOOoooooooooowwwwwwwwww!
>
> MOPP Level 4; Zip-up asbestos suit, prepare for the Outer Mounting
> Flame...
>
> GJ
Just a kiddin fellas.......
gj...@aol.com
>>>>What _really_ happened was that Ben Webster had a hard time
playing over the changes at a quick tempo, and since the
Euro-avant-garde people hadn't invented bullshit yet,<<<<
OOOoooooooooowwwwwwwwww!
Walter Davis
In article
<Pine.PTX.3.95c.96112...@carson.u.washington.edu>,
Jeff Volkman <ve...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>[snip]
>> and since the
>> was forced to play actual music.
>
>What does this mean?
>
seen the light, let me explain this one for you Jeff:
Just remember that "bullshit" is not meant in a derogatory fashion
whatsoever and I can't imagine how anyone could possibly take it that
way. Jazz smells like a rose and Euro-improv smells like shit but that
doesn't mean that one smells better than another just that they're two
different smells and some folks prefer one smell over another.
The music of masters like Derek Bailey and Evan Parker is infused with
Bullshit and Nonsense created through Mud-Wrestling Anarchy. Anyone who
says that Euro-improv is jazz is insulting the tradition of Bullshit.
-walt
Walter Davis walter...@unc.edu or
Department of Sociology and wdavi...@mhs.unc.edu
Health Data Analyst at the ph: (919) 962-1019
Institute for Research in Social Science fax: (919) 962-4777
UNC - Chapel Hill
Steve Carmichael
Steve
Doug Wamble
Walter Davis wrote:
> They say nobody's more zealous than a new convert and since I've finally
> seen the light, let me explain this one for you Jeff:
>
> Just remember that "bullshit" is not meant in a derogatory fashion
> whatsoever and I can't imagine how anyone could possibly take it that
> way. Jazz smells like a rose and Euro-improv smells like shit but that
> doesn't mean that one smells better than another just that they're two
> different smells and some folks prefer one smell over another.
>
> The music of masters like Derek Bailey and Evan Parker is infused with
> Bullshit and Nonsense created through Mud-Wrestling Anarchy. Anyone who
> says that Euro-improv is jazz is insulting the tradition of Bullshit.
Hey, way to go Walt. You're catching on!
Glad to see you've accepted the teachings.
As-Salaam-Alaikum, my brother.
H. Loess
wda...@irss.unc.edu (Walter Davis) wrote:
>The music of masters like Derek Bailey and Evan Parker is infused with
>Bullshit and Nonsense created through Mud-Wrestling Anarchy.
I believe history will prove you wrong on this one; however, I do
remember the Kipper Kids, performing at The Kitchen (NYC) in the late
'70s, pausing to do a 10-second-or-so impression of Parker and Bailey
on ukelele and soprano sax - might a video clip of this or a similar
performance be the source of the confusion?
--
Henry L.
hlo...@pipeline.com
Perttu Raivio
>>>> Ac dixit "Jeff" == Jeff Volkman:
Jeff>
Jeff> On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Doug Wamble wrote:
Jeff>
Jeff> [snip]
>> and since the
>> Euro-avant-garde people hadn't invented bullshit yet, he
>> was forced to play actual music.
Jeff> What does this mean?
Basically it means that at that time bullshit was the domain
of the American musicians. And as I associate Rhythm Changes
strongly with this so-called be bop bullshit, which certainly
ain't jazz, I couldn't care less. I mean, all these people
like Mr. Parker and Mr. Gillespie, creating strange, usually
awful, noises and calling it jazz, tainting the word...
--
Cacatne pontifex maximus in sylvis? Loquiturne ursus Latine?
Jeff Volkman
On 3 Dec 1996, Perttu Raivio reposted:
Oh. I don't think I could care any less about this topic, so don't point
that thing at me (I know, I asked the question).
Marc Sabatella
Just curious, Doug - was the bit about the tape being sped up just part of the
joke, or is that real? Call me clueless.
As for why I hear Cottontail in Ab, I don't think that has anything to do with
the Real Book; I don't recall the tune even appearing in that book. But I have
played a big band arrangement that was in Ab, at a concert where Red Rodney was
a guest artist, and I sort-of maybe seem to recall him saying that was the way
it was supposed to be, not that he's necessarily an authority on this.
Doug Wamble
Marc Sabatella wrote:
>
> Just curious, Doug - was the bit about the tape being sped up just part of the
> joke, or is that real? Call me clueless.
No, that was just a joke.
Mark W. Smart
In a previous article, wda...@irss.unc.edu (Walter Davis) says:
>Just remember that "bullshit" is not meant in a derogatory fashion
>whatsoever and I can't imagine how anyone could possibly take it that
>way. Jazz smells like a rose and Euro-improv smells like shit but that
>doesn't mean that one smells better than another just that they're two
>different smells and some folks prefer one smell over another.
This reminds me of a line spoken by General Turgidson (George C Scott) in
"Dr. Strangelove":
"The Russian talks big, Mr. President, but quite frankly I think they're
a little short of know-how. I mean, you just can't expect a bunch of
ignorant PEONS to understand a machine like some of our boys..
...but that's not meant as a insult, Mr. Ambassador! I mean, you take
your average Russian, we all know how much guts he's got. I mean look at
all them them Nazis killed off and they still wouldn't quit!!!!"
--
Mark Smart
Mark S Fraser
Any bassists out there know Oscar Pettiford's "Tricotism"? I busted my ass
when I was first learning the acoustic to learn to play it. The
transcription I had was in Db, not a very easy key for acoustic. Anyway I
found out about two years later that Pettiford could play it as fast as he
wanted it to go so he got them to speed the tape up. It was originally in
C, one of the easiest keys on bass. BTW the Gene Smith, former lead
trombone player for the Woody Herman band, always made us play Cottontail
in Ab, which he said was the original key.
peace,
mark
--
Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
-Groucho Marx
Andrew Homzy
> As for why I hear Cottontail in Ab, I don't think that has anything to do with
> the Real Book; I don't recall the tune even appearing in that book. But
I have
> played a big band arrangement that was in Ab, at a concert where Red
Rodney was
> a guest artist, and I sort-of maybe seem to recall him saying that was the way
> it was supposed to be, not that he's necessarily an authority on this.
>
> --
> Marc Sabatella
Ellington recorded Cottontail in Bb. The stock arrangement and perhaps the
piano solo publication was written in Ab. Somehow, these versions became
the source for the leadsheets found in fakebooks.
--
Andrew Homzy
Music Department
Concordia University, Montreal
Marc Sabatella
Andrew Homzy wrote:
> Ellington recorded Cottontail in Bb. The stock arrangement and perhaps the
> piano solo publication was written in Ab. Somehow, these versions became
> the source for the leadsheets found in fakebooks.
Thanks, that explains it. And of course, it turns out it *is* in the Real
Book (in Ab).
--
Marc Sabatella
--
ma...@fortnet.org
JFR
I would like to recommend that posters update the subject line as much
as possible. FOr example, WHat does derek bailey and mud wrestling
have to do with Bb rhythm changes? Thats a zany example, but its hard
to keep up with RMB (I am always 500 or so messages behind) when you
have to keep on opening posts that have nothing to do with the subject
line. Just a thought.....
In <580hkt$u...@camel2.mindspring.com> hlo...@pipeline.com (H. Loess)
writes:
Marc Sabatella
JFR wrote:
> I would like to recommend that posters update the subject line as much
> as possible. FOr example, WHat does derek bailey and mud wrestling
> have to do with Bb rhythm changes? Thats a zany example, but its hard
> to keep up with RMB (I am always 500 or so messages behind) when you
> have to keep on opening posts that have nothing to do with the subject
> line. Just a thought.....
I figure this is a major part of why people sometimes say there is nothing
interesting happening on RMB these days - they read only the subject lines,
which rarely say much about the content of the thread. Unfortunately, I may
soon be in the same boat.
I rather like the model used by "tin" (on my Unix machine) where I hardly even
notice thread titles, but am nonetheless able to easily check out all unread
articles, organized by thread. When I enter the group, it shows me the first
unread note in the first thread. I hit one key to see the next unread note in
that thread, another to skip the rest of that thread and go on to the next.
Just two fingers to get through the whole newsgroup.
Before "tin" I used "notes", which had the same use model. Before that, I used
the PLATO system, which had a similar concept.
Does anyone know of a PC newsreader that works in this way? The ones I've seen
all seem to want me to choose which messages to read, or use awkward menu picks
to advance to the next unread message thread, rather than make these the
default operations.
Andrew Homzy
In article <584kqq$2...@fcnews.fc.hp.com>, ma...@fortnet.org wrote:
> Thanks, that explains it. And of course, it turns out it *is* in the Real
> Book (in Ab).
>
> --
> Marc Sabatella
Here's just a bit more information - after I had sent my last posting:
Ellington recorded Cottontail in Bb. The stock arrangement was written in
Ab. It was published in 1944 - the arrangement is by Will Hudson. Believe
it or not, the chords to the first 4 bars of the melody are: (Key of Ab)
|Bb7|Eb7|Bb7|Bb7 Eb7| - the rest of the progression moves in the usual
way. I have never seen any vintage piano/vocal sheet music for Cottontail
- the publisher is Robbins Music.
Somehow, the key of Ab, found in the stock arrangement, was chosen for
some of the leadsheets found in fakebooks.
P.S. - A stock arrangement was that issued by the publisher to provide a
convenient and playable version for the many professional and amateur
dance bands around the world. The instrumentation of stock arrangements
reflected, stabilized and standardized the instrumentation of the American
dance band. They were easily available through most music stores - the
arrangements were usually "in stock".
Walter Davis
In article <586gur$f...@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
jre...@ix.netcom.com(JFR) wrote:
>
>I would like to recommend that posters update the subject line as much
>as possible. FOr example, WHat does derek bailey and mud wrestling
>have to do with Bb rhythm changes? Thats a zany example, but its hard
>to keep up with RMB (I am always 500 or so messages behind) when you
>have to keep on opening posts that have nothing to do with the subject
>line. Just a thought.....
>
reaction to the "controversy" over Cotton-Tail in Ab or Bb which was
related to whether changes could come in non-Bb forms which I think was
the original question. Now if we actually start discussing
mud-wrestling, then I'll admit that we're off-topic although I would
certainly never question anyone's right to call mud-wrestling jazz.
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
In article <587a16$s...@fcnews.fc.hp.com> ma...@fortnet.org writes:
>
>I rather like the model used by "tin" (on my Unix machine) where I hardly even
>
Yeah, tin. All you need is linux.