Who's the Most Overrated Jazz Artist?
Christopher Farley
be sure what is good and what is not. I've always found it useful to generate
strong opinions based (in part) on whether I agree or disagree with
negative criticism.
So how about some NEGATIVE opinions of jazz artists? Who sucks?
Though I like these folks, I'd be PARTICULARLY interested in hearing somebody
tell me why they might legitimately hate, say:
1. Ornette Coleman
2. Charles Mingus
3. Chick Corea
4. Eric Dolphy
5. Pat Metheny
6. Miles Davis (except the fusion stuff, I know why everybody hates that)
and
7. Bill Evans
(I'm pushing it here - clearly nobody hates Bill Evans!)
In general, the problem with jazz is that everybody respects everybody else
WAY too much.
-Christopher Farley
Eric Levin
Eric Levin
space, hit the 25-line limit.
Re overrated artists.
I'm not saying they're overrated, whatever that means, I'm just
saying that I no longer enjoy listening to David Murray solo
or--now I suppose I'm really in for it--the great Sonny Rollins.
In my previous message I listened a bunch of stuff I DO like,
probably to make the point that I'm not narrow in my tastes and
appreciate what's thought of as "out" stuff as much as what's
called "mainstream.' It just depends on what's in the music.
My feeling about Murray--and if he's reading this, I'm sorry,
Dave, because we've met and had some nice conversations, and I
like him personally and respect his output, energy and
musicianship--but I feel that many of his solos reach a point
beyond which they all sound the same. To my ears, they lose
interest, substance and texture at that point. They become a
rant, an undifferentiated cascade of whoops and hoarse cries and
whistles, sound and fury signifying not nothing but always the
same limited ideas or emotions. It's a strangled and reduced
vocabulary, it seems to me, and it's a shame, because he can be a
very powerful and beautiful player up to the point where he just
starts fulminating. OUT OF SPACE AGAIN! see ya next time.
Eric Levin
woebegone hour (3:30 am eastern standard time, NYNY).
Re Sonny Rollins, how can you knock him? He's a titan,
unquestionably. A player of mammoth stamina and invention. A
stalwart, a survivor, an iconoclast. And yet. My own personal
taste? He sounds like a klutz to me half the time, a bull in a
china shop. Sorry, folks. I've been carrying that around with me
a long time. But Chris Farley, your challenge reached me at a
vulnerably honest moment, my first visit to rec.music.bluenote,
and so I coughed it up.
Look forward to hearing from others. As I said in my first reply,
in general I much prefer talking about music I love, of which I
have found a great deal in my 44 years and am ever on the lookout
for more. Music is, as Henry Miller once wrote, the can opener of
the soul.
Regards to all.......
Steve Robinson
You have asked an extremely strange question. First, I wonder if you
have been reading the same posts I have when you say we are so polite.
Have you been following the Wynton thread? You mention Miles above, but
I wonder if you have read the recent thread on him (NOT
everybody hates his fusion stuff, and not everybody loves his other
stuff). Secondly, why bother to berate people everyone knows who you
don't like? While many of us on rmb enjoy a good argument, I think I
enjoy learning about some obscure player that I later enjoy than more
than reading endless posts about someone extremely well known.
That said, from you list, there really isn't anyone I hate. However, as
much as I respect Pat Metheny, the only recording of his I have is "Song
X," done with Ornette. I also have him as a "side man" on "Wish," by
Joshua Redman. His fusiony stuff leaves me cold. It's over-produced.
Steve
David J. Strauss
it illuminates the reasons _why_ particular individuals listen to Jazz
music. A Charles Gayle fan often doesn't think of Jazz the same way a
Mugsy Spanier fan does (although the former is usually, I think, more
likely to appreciate the latter). Which is why we have all this
bickering over "what is Jazz" (which I'm always happy to add to).
This does not rule out the many individuals _within_ a given appreciated
genre that remain overated.
And, if I may suggest, let's ignore the temptation of bringing _Wynton_ up,
as I suspect this topic has been well covered back-and-forth, as of late.
So, may I piss upon the statue of OSCAR PETERSON, a facile & banal Tatum
imitator whom Norman Granz, in his financial wisdom (he was Peterson's
manager) foisted upon an enormous number of promising sessions, which
were dragged down to mere mortality. O if only King Cole had stayed with
the piano (he was featured on plenty of Verve sessions prior to
Peterson)!Nothing against Herb Ellis or Ray Brown (although there was an
earlier thread denigrating Brown that was rather interesting), but their
trio sessions are pure tedium to these ears. Peterson played with so many
great musicians that he's bound to be on some classics (_Louis & Ella_, for
one), but I find his cult utterly mysterious in a way that I doesn't seem
to bother me about the cults of other pianists I'm not particularly
interested in, such as Brubeck or Chick Corea (when he isn't playing with
Miles, Braxton or Marion Brown). But I'll leave Corea for someone else.
Eric Levin
Time Magazine? Enjoy your writing, if so.
Generally, I hate to speak of what I hate to listen to. I prefer
to speak of what I prefer, especially if (as is often the case)
that is also what DownBeat used to call "Talent Deserving Wider
Recognition."
But, to answer your provocative question, there are a couple
musicians who I have reached my limit with. I have been listening
to jazz since I was in my early teens, and I am now in my
mid-40s. Currently my favorite album is Marty Ehrlich's "Can You
Hear A Motion?" My tastes are very wide ranging, from Marcus
Roberts and solo Monk and '40-'42 Ellington and
Desmond-Mulligan collaborations to early and some recent Ornette
Trane's Meditations, Charlie Haden, Abbey Lincoln and John
Scofield and Bill Frisell. And on and on. I like rock and
classical and country, selectively but cumulatively a lot: Pearl
Jam, Freedy Johnston, Jellyfish, Crash Test Dummies, New
Model Army, Rodney Crowell, John Anderson (the country singer),
Emmylou Harris, Joni Mitchell, old Webb Pierce and Bob Wills.
All of which is preface to saying that, as the great My Fair Lady
tune goes, I am equally as willing for a dentist to be drilling
as to listen to another David Murray solo. OUT OF SPACE!
Dick Burger
>Re Sonny Rollins, how can you knock him? He's a titan,
>unquestionably. A player of mammoth stamina and invention. A
>stalwart, a survivor, an iconoclast. And yet. My own personal
>taste? He sounds like a klutz to me half the time, a bull in a
>china shop. Sorry, folks.
Sonny Rollins is probably the only jazz great that occasionally leaves me
cold. But for the opposite reason that you cite. I don't find him klutzy, I
find his solos too perfectly constructed. I think he is too cerebral
sometimes. To compare him with another tenor great from his heyday, John
Coltrane, Coltrane was more consistently intense/emotional/passionate, more
sense of urgency.
I have a friend who is strictly a classical music lover, but for some reason
he also really likes Sonny Rollins. For me, this is very telling, my friend
appreciates complex, refined music played to perfection.
But this is not to say that I don't enjoy some of Rollin's records. I
like his work with Jim Hall, Clifford Brown. "Saxophone Collosus" and
"Way out West" are great. I wouldn't even say that he is over-rated so much
as say he often doesn't connect with me personally.
dB
Martin Berggren
admit: after listening to him for about two minutes I hardly can't
stand it any longer. I start feeling unconfortable; it has something
to with his timing, I think. (Funny, this feels almost like some kind
of auricular confession.) OK, I know the man was a genius, people I
highly respect love the guy, but... Anybody else feeling this way?
Maybe we could start a support group.
Martin
Jeff Beer
Before I got into Bill Evans, I always was amazed at how poetic many of
the writings about his playing were, such to the point that I felt that
the writings about him were more beautiful than the actual music.
But then I listened to the Vanguard recordings with Scott LaFaro and Paul
Motian, I got into what he was about. Then I could understand the magic
that was hinted at in the writings about him. Generally I like most stuff of
Evans, there certainly are times when he could be considered going through the
motions, like most other musicians. However, when Evans is at his best,
his playing is very charming and magical. It sinks in and has a
profound effect.
I am fortunate to have seen him live a few years before he died, with
Marc Johnson and Joe LaBarbara. (I think it is Joe.)
Jeff
David Fields
Count me in. Evans bores me to tears. I always remember what Gary Peacock is
alleged to have said when he jumped from Evans' band to Albert Ayler's trio:
"I'm tired of playing wedding music..."
Apart from Evans' playing on "Kind of Blue," I've never heard him play anything
that didn't put me to sleep. And I'm always amused when people put Evans and
Paul Bley into the same bag. Please. I could listen to Bley all day long, but
Evans... Aargh!
Christopher Farley
The 'politeness' question was posed with a hint of sarcasm, especially in
light of the Wynton question. I understand that particular controversy. And
I understand the Miles controversy (re: fusion). I'm a little bit more foggy
on why some people might not like "Kind Of Blue", for example.
> Secondly, why bother to berate people everyone knows who you
>don't like? While many of us on rmb enjoy a good argument, I think I
>enjoy learning about some obscure player that I later enjoy than more
>than reading endless posts about someone extremely well known.
The question isn't really posed to create bitterness, acrimony, hostility,
etc... As a person relatively new to jazz, I'm trying to (indirectly) ask
about the particular appeal of certain major artists. I find this type of
exercise MORE useful, because if I asked what made these artists so GREAT I
think I'd get lots of replies from people who love the music. Kind of a
useless way to form an opinion.
Personally, I find It hard to form opinions when I never hear
reasoned dissent. Kind of odd, maybe, but I like to know the parameters of
the debate. It kind of gets at the essence of WHY I might like certain
things.
>That said, from you list, there really isn't anyone I hate. However, as
>much as I respect Pat Metheny, the only recording of his I have is "Song
>X," done with Ornette. I also have him as a "side man" on "Wish," by
>Joshua Redman. His fusiony stuff leaves me cold. It's over-produced.
Thank you for participating in my stupid experiment, nevertheless. I only own
"Bright Size Life" and "Rejoicing", both of which I like.
Now this may sound odd, but I think I'll have to pick up one of Pat's fusiony
albums. And, if I think it sucks, I'll spend a lot of time wondering what
would cause him to make a stupid record.
(I keep records that I hate in my collection. Sometimes I even play them.)
-Christopher Farley
Harry S. Ackley
--
As a jazz listener I've never understood the popularity of either John
Scofield or Mike stern. The way they play (tonality and style) seems to
clash with the jazz idiom. Where young guitarists are concerned, I much
prefer the playing of a Lee Ritnour or Mark Whitfield. $.02
Christopher Farley
What does Paul Bley think of Bill Evans?
I have liked everything I've read about Paul Bley, but I've never really found
a great Paul Bley record. I confess that this is probably my fault, though.
(All the Bley I own is infected with the outer-space sparseness of Manfried
Eicher, whose productions I LOVE in some cases, but hate in
others.) But from the recordings in my limited-but-growing jazz collection,
Bley sounds a bit more technically gifted than Evans. (But if Manfred
Eicher produced Evans, maybe he'd sound better, too.) How is Bley
philisophically distinct from Evans? Could it be argued that he is NOT?
-Christopher Farley
JOHN TEMMERMAN
David J. Strauss said:
DS> So, may I piss upon the statue of OSCAR PETERSON, a facile & banal
DS> Tatum imitator whom Norman Granz, in his financial wisdom (he was
DS> Peterson's
Well, I don't know about Oscar Peterson. But I would describe Kenny G as
banal.
Still, I try not to trash Kenny in public, since the folks who listen to
him and like him at least know he's playing the sax. It's good for
business for me, a tenor player.
..joHN
* RM 1.3 02111 * The joy of Sax!
Ed Price
[...]
>The question isn't really posed to create bitterness, acrimony, hostility,
>etc... As a person relatively new to jazz, I'm trying to (indirectly) ask
>about the particular appeal of certain major artists. I find this type of
>exercise MORE useful, because if I asked what made these artists so GREAT I
>think I'd get lots of replies from people who love the music. Kind of a
>useless way to form an opinion.
"Lots of replies from people who love the music" is useless? I think that
your reasoning here *is* a little weird! :)
>Personally, I find It hard to form opinions when I never hear
>reasoned dissent. Kind of odd, maybe, but I like to know the parameters of
>the debate. It kind of gets at the essence of WHY I might like certain
>things.
I don't see why paying attention to "WHY" people *like* something should be
any less valuable than why they dislike something. But hey, whatever...
It's true that dissent and arguments can be informative. (Hopefully they
are, otherwise what's the point?)
Chick Corea was on your list... I've enjoyed some of his playing in the
past, mainly a long time ago though (eg one of the Corea/Vitous/Haynes trio
albums I remember, and the Zurich duo album with Gary Burton, I liked some
of that, esp "Senor Mouse", although I did have a certain sense of liking
GB's solos more than CC's). A few months ago perhaps I saw Corea on BET, I
think it may have been his "Akoustic Band" (it was piano, bass, drums). I
found myself admiring his mechanical skills at the piano (thinking about
how much practicing would be involved!) and even thinking that he did some
"hip" things in terms of vocabulary I guess, but disliking the overall
effect of the music. (Didn't help that the drummer was very fusiony, not
to my liking at all. It was funny, once they went into a fast spasm of
Latin/fusion playing almost instantaneously, I would assume more or less
spontaneously as well, which was kind of cool -- almost like a Naked City
style burst of thrash in the middle of something else -- but still somewhat
distasteful for some reason...) I'm not sure I could adequately explain
what the actual difference is between what he was doing and what, say,
Keith Jarrett does (I like his playing a lot). Jarrett's playing is also
technically/"athletically" impressive, but strikes me as much more
genuinely musical, more continuous, more organic, less arbitrary perhaps
(and less lick-bound).
Hope that's relatively non-useless...
BTW, I'm mildly surprised no-one has seized on the opportunity to suggest
that Keith Jarrett is over-rated! Not to provoke anyone, heheh... :)
I've never been into Dizzy, but I'm not sure if that's because I don't like
his playing (I suspect that I might not) or because I just haven't really
heard it (I certainly haven't heard much but I must have heard some and
there must be some reason it made no impression)... Any recommendations as
to what I could listen to that might help me resolve this?? :)
>(I keep records that I hate in my collection. Sometimes I even play them.)
Just to make sure? :) I do that too...
-Ed
PS You asked some interesting questions about Paul Bley and Bill Evans in
your other article. I wish I could answer them but I know little about
either... I'm a little surprised you find Bley so much more technically
impressive though.
Dale Smoak
--
Dale Smoak | da...@shore.net (preferred)
|
http://www.shore.net/~dales | da...@well.sf.ca.us
Alex Merck
All of them are good players (like most of the ones being put down
here or among jazz fans everywhere). But for me personally, Ritenour
was interesting for maybe two albums 20 years ago and got extremely
boring later. The same happens with a lot of artists that record a
lot of albums and don't change much.
I think there are some great albums - but I haven't heard one artist
where I would say most of the albums they did can be enjoyed over
and over again over a long time. Some of Mike Sterns and Scofields
albums belong into that category, like some Miles albums (both from
his 80s and from the 50s period and in-between).The only stuff I
find disgusting is young musicians building a career on completely
copying something old ( bebop-revival, mainstream today) and even
being lauded by a lot of writers for something unnecessary. If I
want to hear bebop, I'll listen to the originals. Todays musicians
have to develop their own style of jazz - otherwiese they are just
the same as a fake picture hanging in a museum because the originals
are too priceless to be shown.
Alex Merck (Lipstick & Jazzline Rec.)
John Sullivan
>Hackley wrote:
>>As a jazz listener I've never understood the popularity of either
>>John Scofield or Mike stern. The way they play (tonality and
>>style) seems to clash with the jazz idiom. Where young guitarists
>>are concerned, I much prefer the playing of a Lee Ritnour or Mark
>>Whitfield. $.02
I find Scofield to be one of the more interesting guitarists these days, but
does he ever turn off that damn chorus effect? It transforms all of his
playing into 70's fusion cheese. Very frustrating, especially on his more
straight-ahead work.
(Note: Regardless of the subject-line, I don't think he's overrated. He's
relly good.)
SBarbarian
One would have hoped that a newsgroup such as this, one that deals with an
indigenous art form that is joyous to hear but serious in intent, would
not have to be subject to such nonsense as this topic. It is a topic
based on spite, malice and (most often) ignorance and is not worthy of
replying to.
Who is the most UNDERrated jazz artist? Let's talk about that--it might
bring to light a name or two that could use a boost.
David Fields
> In article <D1LGu...@lcpd2.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM> d...@ElSegundoCA.ATTGIS.COM (David Fields) writes:
>
> >In article d...@larry.rice.edu, mar...@rice.edu (Martin Berggren) writes:
> >> The original poster mentioned Bill Evans so here it goes. I have to
> >> admit: after listening to him for about two minutes I hardly can't
> >> stand it any longer. I start feeling unconfortable; it has something
> >> to with his timing, I think. (Funny, this feels almost like some kind
> >> of auricular confession.) OK, I know the man was a genius, people I
> >> highly respect love the guy, but... Anybody else feeling this way?
> >> Maybe we could start a support group.
> >>
> >>
> >> Martin
>
> >Count me in. Evans bores me to tears. I always remember what Gary Peacock is
> >alleged to have said when he jumped from Evans' band to Albert Ayler's trio:
> >"I'm tired of playing wedding music..."
>
> >Apart from Evans' playing on "Kind of Blue," I've never heard him play anything
> >that didn't put me to sleep. And I'm always amused when people put Evans and
> >Paul Bley into the same bag. Please. I could listen to Bley all day long, but
> >Evans... Aargh!
>
> What does Paul Bley think of Bill Evans?
Dunno. They played together on an old George Russell Decca recording, but all
that means is that Russell liked them both.
>
> I have liked everything I've read about Paul Bley, but I've never really found
> a great Paul Bley record. I confess that this is probably my fault, though.
Try the IAI material, particularly "Virtuosi" and "Turning Point" (with John Gilmore).
His work with Jimmy Giuffre is also excellent. I like all his work, but those
are among the very best to my ears.
> (All the Bley I own is infected with the outer-space sparseness of Manfried
> Eicher, whose productions I LOVE in some cases, but hate in
> others.) But from the recordings in my limited-but-growing jazz collection,
> Bley sounds a bit more technically gifted than Evans. (But if Manfred
> Eicher produced Evans, maybe he'd sound better, too.) How is Bley
> philisophically distinct from Evans? Could it be argued that he is NOT?
Bley likes to play without harmonic restrictions. His sense of rhythm is rather
different than Evans, and his nontonality is *very* different from Evans. Can
you imagine Evans hiring Ornette to play in his band? :-)
>
> -Christopher Farley
Dick Burger
>It is a topic
>based on spite, malice and (most often) ignorance and is not worthy of
>replying to.
Well, maybe that term "overrated" is a bit nasty, but I think it is interesting
to hear what people don't like.
dB
Walter Davis
Alex Merck <7323...@CompuServe.COM> writes:
>I think there are some great albums - but I haven't heard one artist
>where I would say most of the albums they did can be enjoyed over
>and over again over a long time.
Or were you limiting yourself to the jazz guitarists mentioned
in the original post?
-walt
Walter Davis WALTER...@UNC.EDU
Department of Sociology and ph: (919) 962-1019
Health Data Analyst at the fax: (919) 962-IRSS
Institute for Research in Social Science
UNC - Chapel Hill
TornCot
To Dale Smoak and others:
Couldn't agree with you more about Frank Morgan being incredibly
overrated. Once again though it's a case of record labels looking at
biography rather than ability. Usually this results in record deals for
"prodigies" like Joey DeFrancesco and Christopher Hollyday (haven't heard
much of him lately). But being in jail for several decades makes an
interesting story, and it guarantees press coverage. IMHO a boring
unexciting player. James Clay's comeback is much more persuasive.
Dave Krugman
Alex Merck
Charles Mingus, John Coltrane, Dave Holland.... :-) ... (all their
albums can be enjoyed over and over again over a long time (not a
quate, but implication))
>>Or were you limiting yourself to the jazz guitarists mentioned
>>in the original post?
I was mainly thinking of Pat Metheny and the others mentioned .. but
I can't say that I really treasure every album Dave Holland made ..
or even know every album Trane made.
Let's face it - musicians have to make a living in aless than
perfect world and therefore have recorded (and do record) more
albums than absolutely necessary. I should know - both as a musician
and record company manager. BTW - I often try to convince our
artists not to record too many albums and only to pick the best
tunes - this is not only in the interest of the artist, but also in
the long-term interest of record companies.
Alex Merck 9Lipstick & Jazzline Rec.)
--
Marc Sabatella
> > How is Bley
> > philisophically distinct from Evans? Could it be argued that he is NOT?
> Bley likes to play without harmonic restrictions. His sense of rhythm is rather
> different than Evans, and his nontonality is *very* different from Evans.
I thinkthis is an excellent characterization of their differences. I would
also add that Evans is generally much more concerned with the melodicism of his
lines, whereas Bley is often more textural/rhythmic.
As for the original question, I find almost every major artist overrated at
times.
--
Marc Sabatella
ma...@sde.hp.com
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
Jo3n
Oscar Peterson said that Monk wasn't much of a piano player Evans was the
first to come to Monk,s defense. Billie Holiday asked why Peterson played
so many notes. Evans was THE aknowledged master of his time. He
influenced almost everyone who came after him, and some who preceded him.
He had his heroin problem, which doesn't improve anyone's music. The
early Riverside albums outshine even Kinda Blue. And some of his last
performances were very good, also. He was subtle and introverted. Some
people don't like that. His main influences were Bud Powell and Nat Cole.
They were the best. Along with Mr, Monk. Non of this takes away from
the fine Mr. Bley. Thank god for them all, And Cecil Taylor, too, who
referred to Evans as a cocktail piano player.
Happy New Year! Jon Brooder
Steve Robinson
Sorry, guys, but I couldn't agree with you LESS about Frank Morgan.
Despite his weirdness as a person, he reaches out to me musically in a
way few others can. There is a certain underlying pathos to his playing,
even when he's doing uptempo bop tunes, that communicates real passion.
I'm not old enough to have heard Bird in person, but having heard Frank
Morgan in person multiple times almost makes up for it.
Steve Robinson
Seattle, WA
stev...@u.washington.edu
hul...@bsk-mail.bsk.utwente.nl
Jo3n <jo...@aol.com> wrote:
>Evans was THE aknowledged master of his time. He
>influenced almost everyone who came after him, and some who preceded him.
^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Now *that* should make us think! ;-)
---
Peter Hulsen
David Walcott
d...@ElSegundoCA.ATTGIS.COM wrote:
I find it so difficult to beleive that Bill Evans' name has even come up
in this discussion. Any accomplished pianist studied not only in jazz but
also in European classical music would agree that he is not only one of
the most technically competent, but also one of the most melodically
inventive jazz musicians of the latter half of the this century. You say
you feel uncomfortable with his timing, and so he is therefore an
overrated jazz artist?
Closer to the truth is probably that his sense of implied swing (a style
for which he is almost entirely responsible) is beyond your critical grasp
(a point, incidentally, for which he has often been criticized). If your
comments are indeed based on informed listening, I would think you would
at least be able to tell the difference between an "overrated" musician,
and one for whom you simply do not care. It would love to hear any
attempts to argue that Bill Evans belongs to the former group.
David Walcott
wal...@faludi.com
Stephane Perennes
burton was great; and chick doing annoying and stupid
little tune.
Many friends of mine say that chick corea is a great jazzman,
can you send me some reference about "very good record of chick corea".
(as a composer, not as a miles performer).
David Fields
I'll accept that. I'll pass on whether he's overrated or not. I'll stand on the
observation that he bores me to tears. I'll say the same thing about virtually
all the Cecil Taylor that has been recorded since, oh, say 1975 or thereabouts.
Before that, great. After... Technique isn't everything. Monk was no great
technician, but he was one hell of a player and composer.
Gary Milliken
>> can you send me some reference about "very good record of chick corea".
>> (as a composer, not as a miles performer).
>
>
I'd also suggest an album which is now unfortunately out-of-print,
but may still be found either in used bins or on used vinyl. It is
a live recording of Chick Corea and Gary Burton in Zurich (on ECM).
The two have collaborated on numerous albums, most of which are
still available, but this live one contains some Corea compositions
not available elsewhere to my knowledge, including a great one
titled "Bud Powell". Also contained is a version of "Senor Mouse"
which is at almost double the tempo of the original, and is truly
scary. As on all the Corea-Burton duo albums, the compositions
are about equally split between Corea and Steve Swallow.
By the way, the original vinyl release was a 2-LP package, and the
single-CD version leaves off a tune or two.
GM
Marc Sabatella
> Many friends of mine say that chick corea is a great jazzman,
> can you send me some reference about "very good record of chick corea".
> (as a composer, not as a miles performer).
I'd suggest "Now He Sings, Now He Sobs" or "Song Of Singing".
--
Frank D. Malczewski
Both recently made out-of-print by Blue Note (far as I can tell). Snap
them up now if you want them (and can find them).
--
--
Frank Malczewski (f...@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com)
Frank D. Malczewski
Actually, perusing the above, I can practically substitute Andrew Hill in
a few of the places that Bill Evans is in. I wouldn't go so far as to
call him overrated, no way, but every time I listen to something he has
done I sort of feel like he's trying to say something that I just don't
seem to be able to tune into. (On the other hand, I appreciate the bulk
of Cecil Taylor's work, just to add some perspective...and Bill Evans' too.)
Tobocman
turns to jazz, this name inevitably turns up immediately and my eyes glaze
over. Single-handedly destroyed the chorus pedal and ushered in the era
of fuzak. Get this crap outta here!
Barrett Tsuji
Distribution: world
Moe Koffman gets my vote as most overrated.
-------------------------------------------
> GM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Barrett Tsuji
Carleton University
Email address: bts...@chat.carleton.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I spent three years in highschool and wound up a freshman"
Charlie Parker 1920-1955
Henry Hey
>Gary Milliken (mill...@excellence.Sun.COM) wrote:
>> >> Many friends of mine say that chick corea is a great jazzman,
>> >> can you send me some reference about "very good record of chick corea".
>> >> (as a composer, not as a miles performer).
>> >
>> >I'd suggest "Now He Sings, Now He Sobs" or "Song Of Singing".
>> >
>> I'd also suggest an album which is now unfortunately out-of-print,
>> but may still be found either in used bins or on used vinyl. It is
>> a live recording of Chick Corea and Gary Burton in Zurich (on ECM).
>> The two have collaborated on numerous albums, most of which are
>> still available, but this live one contains some Corea compositions
>> not available elsewhere to my knowledge, including a great one
>> titled "Bud Powell". Also contained is a version of "Senor Mouse"
>> which is at almost double the tempo of the original, and is truly
>> scary. As on all the Corea-Burton duo albums, the compositions
>> are about equally split between Corea and Steve Swallow.
>> By the way, the original vinyl release was a 2-LP package, and the
>> single-CD version leaves off a tune or two.
>> GM
Live in Zurich is an amazing disc. To my knowledge, it is still in
print. I bought the CD about 2 years ago. It is some of the most
amazing Chick (and certainly some of the most amazing duo work)
available. You might also look for Crystal Silence -- another duo album
-- but I prefer Live in Zurich. I would also suggest checking out the
disc entitled Trio Music. They do a lot of monk stuff that is pretty
interesting.
______________________________________________________________________________
____ I
/ / / \ / I
/ / / \ / I Henry Hey
------ ---- \/ I 52 5th Ave #3
/ / / / I Brooklyn, NY 11217-2021
/ / / / I (718) - 789 - 9073
---- I
______________________________________________________________________________
Martin Berggren
: > > >In article d...@larry.rice.edu, mar...@rice.edu (Martin Berggren) writes:
: > > >> The original poster mentioned Bill Evans so here it goes. I have to
: > > >> admit: after listening to him for about two minutes I hardly can't
: > > >> stand it any longer. I start feeling unconfortable; it has something
: > > >> to with his timing, I think. (Funny, this feels almost like some kind
: > > >> of auricular confession.) OK, I know the man was a genius, people I
: > > >> highly respect love the guy, but... Anybody else feeling this way?
: > > >> Maybe we could start a support group.
: > > >>
: > > >>
: > > >> Martin
: I find it so difficult to beleive that Bill Evans' name has even come up
: in this discussion.
: [snip]
: You say
: you feel uncomfortable with his timing, and so he is therefore an
: overrated jazz artist?
No. I guess "Most Overrated..." was not a proper headline for my
comments. My fault.
: Closer to the truth is probably that his sense of implied swing (a style
: for which he is almost entirely responsible) is beyond your critical grasp
: (a point, incidentally, for which he has often been criticized).
That's very likely; the problem is probably with me. But you stirred
my interest: could you tell me more about this implied-swing thing or
point me to some reference? There is something with his timing I don't
"understand". In fact, it affects me almost physically; as I said,
after a while I have to stop listen...
: If your
: comments are indeed based on informed listening,
Not really, and I guess I've already displayed my ignorance..
: I would think you would
: at least be able to tell the difference between an "overrated" musician,
: and one for whom you simply do not care.
I was plainly expressing my surprise that I couldn't appreciate a
musician whose esthetic values I think I essentially share, and I was
curious if somebody else reacted the same same. (BTW, this phenomenon
happens to me in other genres too: not being able to appreciate
something I "should" like. For instance, I have a hard time with
Beethoven even though I appreciate Mozart and Brahms.)
Peter Marzlin
> >Stephane Perennes wrote:
> >
> >> Many friends of mine say that chick corea is a great jazzman,
> >> can you send me some reference about "very good record of chick
corea".
> >> (as a composer, not as a miles performer).
> >
> >I'd suggest "Now He Sings, Now He Sobs" or "Song Of Singing".
"Litha" and "Tones for Joans bones" belong to my favorite standards.
There is a recording (about 1965) which appeared on several LPs
(One of them is named "tones for Joans bones").
Peter.
Gary Milliken
>I would also suggest checking out the
>disc entitled Trio Music. They do a lot of monk stuff that is pretty
>interesting.
Ah yes, "Trio Music" (also on ECM) with Corea, Miroslav Vitous and
Roy Haynes. This was another 2-LP release, but one which has been
maintained as a 2-CD package -- thus very expensive. The first disc
is by far my favorite Monk 'tribute': a terrific collection of
great Monk compositions, played with a fascinating combination of
Monk style and Corea style. Unfortunately, my taste is not broad
enough to find much to like on the 2nd disc of this album, containing
Corea compositions and a lot of free-form playing. I've always
wished that I could get the first disc all by itself, which I can't.
I have it on vinyl, and I just play my tape of the Monk disc.
So strictly speaking, according to the request that started this
thread, I can't recommend "Trio Music" as a good example of Corea's
compositions.
GM
Sociology Dept
>
>So how about some NEGATIVE opinions of jazz artists? Who sucks?
Kenny G and your mom.
>Though I like these folks, I'd be PARTICULARLY interested in hearing somebody
>tell me why they might legitimately hate, say:
OK...
>1. Ornette Coleman
Body piercing. Nuff said.
>2. Charles Mingus
Too fat.
>3. Chick Corea
Scientologist.
>4. Eric Dolphy
Never heard of decaf.
>5. Pat Metheny
Bad hair.
>6. Miles Davis
Thinks he's so damn cool.
>7. Bill Evans
Only sounds good when drinking martinis.
Next?
Brett Reed
80 % Corea's tunes. Crystal Silence from 1973 has the title track and
Senor Mouse (among others) (it also won a Grammy) Duet from 1975 has Duet
Suite and La Fiesta. Also check out his Children's Songs, 20 short piano
pieces, very little improvisation, I think they are exceptional.
Brett Reed
eri...@delphi.com
>So, may I piss upon the statue of OSCAR PETERSON, a facile & banal Tatum
>imitator whom Norman Granz, in his financial wisdom (he was Peterson's
>manager) foisted upon an enormous number of promising sessions, which
>were dragged down to mere mortality. O if only King Cole had stayed with
>the piano (he was featured on plenty of Verve sessions prior to
What a sight for sore eyes, let alone sore ears. Have you heard
Miles's comment about Peterson "He had to be taught how to play the
blues". Right on target, yet again Miles. Peterson has terrific chops,
of course, but that has little do do with the worthiness and emotional]
profundity of music, which seems totally lacking in Peterson's case. I
have listened to several of his albums through the years, trying to grasp
why anyone would find his music interesting beyond his mere technical
prowess, and I just can't hear it.
As long as some are making confessions, I must make my own. I
have tremendous respect for Ornette's daring, his inventiveness, for his
unique musical vision. But every time I hear him play he sounds like
somebody whining. I have had a few conversations with Ornette, and that
is pretty much the substance of much of what he has to say: a litany or
complaint, about the music business, the audience, the other musicians,
American society itself (not that there isn't much to justifiably complain
about) that often degenerates into something close to a whine. On the
other hand, I have often been thrilled by Ornette in person--it is only
his records which disturb me in this way. It is, I think a personal thing.
A few years ago a famous critic told me confidentially that the music of
Miles had never done much for him, though he had often written glowing notices
about Miles and even wrote his obituary for a major magazine. In these
cases, I think, it is really a very personal matter of taste. However,
with someone like Peterson it goes beyond that. Two bars by Monk (who
is disdained by Peterson as a pianist) has infinitely greater meaning
for me than entire albums by Peterson.--EN
eri...@delphi.com
> Sonny Rollins is probably the only jazz great that occasionally leaves me
>cold. But for the opposite reason that you cite. I don't find him klutzy, I
>find his solos too perfectly constructed. I think he is too cerebral
>sometimes. To compare him with another tenor great from his heyday, John
DB--The problem with Sonny is that for a musician as great as he is,
he has actually produced very few records that truly reflect his genius.
Even some of the live albums for the most part don't do him justice (like
the disappointing "Solo Album") Sonny himself has admitted that he finds
the recording process unnatural for a jazz musician. But if you catch him
on a great or even just a good night especially at a club (where he very
rarely plays anymore, unfortunately) you will be a believer. He is as
great an improvisor as jazz has produced, able to explore musical worlds
in new and illuminating ways.--E. Nisenson
Steve Robinson
On Thu, 12 Jan 1995 eri...@delphi.com wrote:
(long post/response flaming Oscar Peterson deleted for brevity)
> A few years ago a famous critic told me confidentially that the music of
> Miles had never done much for him, though he had often written glowing notices
> about Miles and even wrote his obituary for a major magazine. In these
> cases, I think, it is really a very personal matter of taste. However,
> with someone like Peterson it goes beyond that. Two bars by Monk (who
> is disdained by Peterson as a pianist) has infinitely greater meaning
> for me than entire albums by Peterson.--EN
>
>
This is the problem with this whole thread. Music IS a personal thing,
and for any musician to be rated--over, under, or otherwise--people have
to make some personal decisions about what they like and how that
musician fits into what they like. It does NOT "go beyond that" with
Oscar Peterson. Sure, on occasion, OP seems to throw everything he can
possibly do into 2 or 3 bars, and yes, he is a highly technical player.
Does that devalue his music? The answer to that question is entirely
subjective.
The anecdote about the critic and Miles is illustrative of a mass
hypnosis, of sorts. It reminds me of something that actually happened at
a state high school track and field championship in the state of
Washington in the 1950s. One kid was highly touted in the press to win a
particular race easily. In reality, a "dark horse" won by a considerable
distance, but the highly touted kid was awarded first place because no
one expected anyone else to have a chance and the officials actually
failed to see the other kid win! It took months of protest before
the actual winner was declared "co-winner" and received his medal.
If we believe a musician can play no wrong,
then that musician can play no wrong. We may feel misgivings, but we
rationalize what we just heard by saying "But that's the great (fill in
the blank)." With OP, the problem seems to be reversed: he's capable of
amazing technical feats, he uses them freely, and therefore, he can't
possibly have any depth of emotion. That's ridiculous, of course.
What's lacking in emotion for one listener may be the height of emotion
for another. What one listener perceives as beautiful and emotional may
be just dull for someone else. And yet someone else may not care one
iota about emotion anyway. Personally, I'm wowed by Peterson, and have
been for years.
Does that mean I don't like Monk because his style is so different from
Peterson's? Of course not! Does Bill Evans stink because he lacks
Monk's quirkiness? No way. To paraphrase, "Variety is the spice of
music" and "beauty is in the ear of the beholder."
Lydia Kulbida
>eri...@delphi.com writes:
>
>:Miles's comment about Peterson "He had to be taught how to play the
>:blues". Right on target, yet again Miles. Peterson has terrific chops,
>:of course, but that has little do do with the worthiness and emotional]
>:profundity of music, which seems totally lacking in Peterson's case.
>
>
>-Bob
Hey Bob, although I agree with you that OP swings, I think 44DDD would
probably be impossible to swing. They could probably go BA-BOOM, BA-BOOM!
;)
Jo3n
Evans. I think There is general agreement in the jazz community that
"Kinda Blue" included the very best musicians of their time. Evans' early
Riverside recordings show his more "swinging" side. But his last
recordings, "The Paris Concerts 1 &2" were deep, complex, romantic,
swinging and, as always, played with impeccable musicianship. I wish he
were still here.
Jon Brooder
Lester22
[grinning] And his longtime drummer, Bobby Durham, wasn't so bad either.
:-)
jfka
back on the scene in the mid-80s there was a tremendous amount of hype that
I don't feel those records merited.
Mark Ladenson <ladenso1.@pilot.msu.edu>
In Article <3fb8ak$o...@hustle.rahul.net> ""Philip F. Wight" <pwi...@rahul.net>" says:
> Anyone who can put down Oscar and quote Ornette lovingly in the same post
> needs medical help.
> ----------------------
> eri...@delphi.com wrote:
> Philip F. Wight <pwi...@rahul.net>
>
BluDru
Jan R. Klincewicz
>Kenny G on the jazz charts is depressing.
Let's not even mention his name in the same breath .. I guess
he's on the jazz charts because he plays the same instrument as
several jazz artists, and the critics are too ingnorant to tell the difference.
Todd Masuda
Well, there ya go: KG is _not_ overrated!
az...@delphi.com
jazz concepts....
smw...@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
In my opinion Wallace Roney is much more overrated.
-Matt
David Degraw
:|%N>In article <xs2YjK...@delphi.com>, az...@delphi.com writes:
:|%N>>BluDru <blu...@aol.com> writes:
:|%N>>
:|%N>>>Kenny G on the jazz charts is depressing.
:|%N>>I CONCUR
:|%N>>
:|%N>>jazz concepts....
:|%N>In my opinion Wallace Roney is much more overrated.
:|%N> -Matt
How can Wallace Roney be overrrated ? He's not even rated.
I saw the Miles Davis reunion gig in Redondo Beach, and Roney
was smokin' . The disappointment came from Wayne Shorter.
He was really out of shape, not that he was ever that dazzling
technically.
Wynton Marsalis is overrated to be sure.
--
============================================================================
David deGraw | The Pope will let you kiss his ring,
deg...@dirac.cchem.berkeley.edu | but he won't let you wear his hat.
============================================================================
MSBeller
>The disappointment came from Wayne Shorter.
>He was really out of shape, not that he was ever that dazzling
>technically.
Ummmm... what? To say Shorter was never astute technically is a bit
misinformed, wouldn't you say? What the heck does *technical* mean to
you, anyway?
Are you saying Wayne couldn't play changes and phrases with technical
prowess? I'm glad you feel that way, actually (even though your wrong
IMO.) It means the man's music is getting across to you as more than a
tecnical exercise. Shorter's work bursts with the right mix of emotion,
surprise and ability.
Fer pete's sake, the guy wrote tons of tunes, some considered classics.
His work at a young age shows a deft ability on his instrument. Check
his Messengers stay. Who do you think wrote half the book? Listen to
"Speak No Evil" or "Ready For Freddie". No technique?
You lose me, man, totally.
(If the man had an off night, don't peg him as *underrated*.)
Mike Beller
msbe...@aol.com
Tony Corman
>deg...@sun.lclark.edu (David Degraw) writes:
>
>>The disappointment came from Wayne Shorter.
>>He was really out of shape, not that he was ever that dazzling
>>technically.
>
>Ummmm... what? To say Shorter was never astute technically is a bit
>misinformed, wouldn't you say? What the heck does *technical* mean to
>you, anyway?
I'm a nut for Wayne, but he doesn't sound all that hot these days;
kind of squawky and pretty out of tune. I've noticed that players
with more or less unorthodox approaches to their instruments (meaning
playing techniques, tone, etc) sometimes pay a price in later life.
perhaps their method of playing required a lot of physical energy or
perhaps it caused some physical problems...tough call. I heard Jackie
Mclean last year, and I'm a big fan, but he was *so sharp* it was
physically uncomfortable. And I have a pretty good tolerance for
tone colors that are not "legit".
And the problem is, the worse it gets, the harder it is for me to
hear the magic. For example, I think Wayne's tone on Native Dancer
is glorious -- there are simple, expressive tenor passages that move
me more than I can say. However, I heard him on some TV special
recently, and his sound just was thin and miserable. I don't think
it was just a bad night; saxophone isn't like trumpet. And the
man can afford reeds...
Tony Corman
Pete
: deg...@sun.lclark.edu (David Degraw) writes:
: >The disappointment came from Wayne Shorter.
: >He was really out of shape, not that he was ever that dazzling
: >technically.
: Ummmm... what? To say Shorter was never astute technically is a bit
: misinformed, wouldn't you say? What the heck does *technical* mean to
: you, anyway?
: Are you saying Wayne couldn't play changes and phrases with technical
Wayne is not a dazzler; that's not his thing. His playing and
musicianship is phenomenal but - like Miles - is remarkable for his
choice of notes rather than ability to play on changes. That's when a
soloist starts to move into the genius category.
My guess about the date you heard is that the band had a lot going on -
maybe one or two guys were having a good day and running with it - and
Wayne elected to lay back. He doesn't feel the need to dominate every
time out. I've seen him do that.
I don't think Wayne has bad days.
I hate that.
Pete
Mark Forry
In article <xs2YjK...@delphi.com>, az...@delphi.com writes:
>BluDru <blu...@aol.com> writes:
>
>>Kenny G on the jazz charts is depressing.
>I CONCUR
Not that I'm a Kenny G fan or apologist or anything, but just
for point of reference ...
At last year's American Music Awards show, Kenny G got some
recognition for selling more instrumental music recordings than
any other artist in history (I don't recall if this was career total
(yikes ... sounds like baseball stats) or a single recording). I
find that mind-boggling; more than Louis Armstrong, Glenn
Miller, Miles Davis, even Henry Mancini?!?
Whatever you may think of his artistic vision, taste, chops,
etc., he's onto something that's beyond marketing. I wonder
what the appeal is? (But then again, that's well trod territory
in these parts ...).
Yours in somber reflection,
*****************************************************************
Mark Forry uunet!sco!markf
Technical Publications ma...@sco.COM
The Santa Cruz Operation (408) 427-7509
Rent Romus
His real name is Joshua Shedroff.
The poor guy is just another you sax player whom the industry decided to
make a star. They can take anyone off the street who fits the look.
Don't get me too wrong. Joshua is a good player (just like the thousands
of other traditional young musicians trying to get a deal with the kingdom
of commercial Jazz). I just don't think he should be called the "next
Coltrane" as so many have at Warner have tryed to hype. I only hope that
Joshua does somthing orginal to spite the mo fo's.
Rent Romus
John Baudreau
Steve Robinson
On 14 Feb 1995, John Baudreau wrote:
> Kenny G is the most overrated, in large part because he sold out.
>
>
>
I don't agree that Kenny G sold out. (Please read on before deciding to
flame me!) I think of "selling out," at least in the context of the jazz
world, as having been a good jazz player who wasn't satisfied with the
remuneration and who changed to a more commercial style for the
express purpose of increasing income. In Kenny's case, he was never a
truly proficient jazzer, although he possibly could have been had he
wanted to. He was a decent soloist in his high school and college stage
bands, but he never really played jazz as a professional musician. The
closest he ever came was his short stint as a member of the Jeff Lorber
Fusion, and some would argue that wasn't jazz either. From the very
beginning, Kenny G. wanted to do exactly what he is doing: become a big
pop star and make lots of money. Obviously, that has nothing to do with art.
Do I like his music? No. But did he sell out? Only if you
believe he had it in him at any time to be a good jazz player. Having heard
him early on, I don't.
dbart...@chinquapin.org
I have that problem with Bill Evans. I first heard him in the last few years of his life, and he sounded to me like an advanced cocktail pianist. I know better now, but still, I wasn't there when he came on the scene in 1956 (or whenever it was), playing in a way that wasn't like anybody else, bringing in that Debussy/Ravel-influenced harmonic concept. I heard him after hearing countless inferior pianists who had copped his ideas, so I couldn't hear the specialness.
I'd also say to the guy who was interested in checking out some of Pat Metheny's "fusiony" stuff, I would suggest "Still Life (Talking)" and/or "Letter from Home." High points in the PMG discography, especially for jazz listeners. (He was in his "Brazilian" phase at the time.) A couple of the early albums have a certain charm, but Pat grew tremendously as a player and composer in the years following those early records.
al_b...@att.net
brady....@att.net
> You know, with all of the POLITENESS on this group, it's hard for a person to
> be sure what is good and what is not. I've always found it useful to generate
> strong opinions based (in part) on whether I agree or disagree with
> negative criticism.
> So how about some NEGATIVE opinions of jazz artists? Who sucks?
>
> tell me why they might legitimately hate, say:
>
> 2. Charles Mingus
> 3. Chick Corea
> 4. Eric Dolphy
> 5. Pat Metheny
> 6. Miles Davis (except the fusion stuff, I know why everybody hates that)
> and
> 7. Bill Evans
> (I'm pushing it here - clearly nobody hates Bill Evans!)
>
>
> In general, the problem with jazz is that everybody respects everybody else
> WAY too much.
>
> -Christopher Farley
brady....@att.net
> The original poster mentioned Bill Evans so here it goes. I have to
> admit: after listening to him for about two minutes I hardly can't
> stand it any longer. I start feeling unconfortable; it has something
> to with his timing, I think. (Funny, this feels almost like some kind
> of auricular confession.) OK, I know the man was a genius, people I
> highly respect love the guy, but... Anybody else feeling this way?
> Maybe we could start a support group.
>
>
> Martin
markmarktarmann
markmarktarmann
> > The original poster mentioned Bill Evans so here it goes. I have to
> > admit: after listening to him for about two minutes I hardly can't
> > stand it any longer. I start feeling unconfortable; it has something
> > to with his timing, I think. (Funny, this feels almost like some kind
> > of auricular confession.) OK, I know the man was a genius, people I
> > highly respect love the guy, but... Anybody else feeling this way?
> > Maybe we could start a support group.
> >
> >
> > Martin
> alleged to have said when he jumped from Evans' band to Albert Ayler's trio:
> "I'm tired of playing wedding music..."
> Apart from Evans' playing on "Kind of Blue," I've never heard him play anything
> that didn't put me to sleep. And I'm always amused when people put Evans and
> Paul Bley into the same bag. Please. I could listen to Bley all day long, but
> Evans... Aargh!