"Third stream"
void
Keeping in mind the subjective nature of such definitions, I'd like to
hear some people's opinions on what it means.
--
Ben
[X] YES! I'm a brain-damaged lemur on crack, and I'd like to
order your software package for $459.95!
Douglas Norwood
denote a music wherein jazz and "classical" music met on more or less
equal terms. The idea was not really new - ever since the 20s with Paul
Whiteman's misguided efforts to "make a lady out of jazz" and Milhaud and
others used jazz elements in concert music, there were meetings between
the two types of music. Through the years, there were many other such
efforts including the Alec Wilder Quintet, George Handy's arrangements
for Boyd Raeburn, several of Stan Kenton's bands, Bill Russo, Ralph Burns,
etc.etc.
Depending upon whom you listen to, the term "Third Stream" was coined by
Gunther Schuller or Martin Williams. The leaders in the movement were
John Lewis (from the jazz side) and Schuller (from the classical side).
Probably the most important recordings were "Third Stream Music" by the
Modern Jazz Quartet along with other musicians and "Jazz Abstractions"
which has recently been reissued (coupled with "The Golden Striker") by
Collectables. Subsequently, the MJQ made several recordings with
orchestras and there were also several recordings by an orchestra called
"Orchestra USA" which was largely devoted to promoting Third Stream.
Broadly speaking, whether or not they associated themselves with the term,
many of the compositions and performances of Charles Mingus, J. J.
Johnson, Eddie Sauter, George Russell, Jimmie Giuffre and others could be
thought of as part of the Third Stream movement.
-
DOUGLAS NORWOOD LNB...@prodigy.com
guy f klose
England Conservatory (the Conservatory was headed by Gunther Schuller
and the department headed by Ran Blake) long ago renamed itself to
the Contemporary Improvisation department, allowing for the fact that
the third stream was not actually a fusion with classical but all
sorts of world music (Ran Blake credits several influences, not the
least of which are Gospel music, Monk and Bill Russo).
Guy
--
Guy Klose
g...@world.std.com
midtown neon
Guy Klose is totally correct, of course. But, what we have here is
another elephant. and we are the blind men attempting its description.
Gunther Schuller coined the term in 1957. But, the music of that
appellation had already been happening. A seminal recording was "The
Birth of the Cool". Capitol. 1963. Schuller played French horn w.
Miles' nonet on it.
But, Jimmy Giuffre had pre-dated "Cool's" attempt with "Fugue" in 1953.
and ... !! Lennie Tristano's two LP's for Atlantic, 1955 and 1960, were
also "Streaming". From another angle, Ornette Coleman, first, then Eric
Dolphy and Albert Ayler, were on the same quest.
Certainly Sonny Rollins, "The Bridge", 1962, was a try. and an
achievement.
Miles in the 70's. Warne Marsh anytime, were factoring. John Lewis,
Milt Jackson, Percy Heath, Connie Kay: The Modern Jazz Quartet. Gerry
Mulligan.
At a time, producers writing on Jazz, trying for product identification,
were slinging the hash, "East Coast Jazz - West Coast Jazz". "Cool vs.
Hot". But hot and cool had always co-existed. Listen to Duke! Or
Benny Carter. Or Claude Thornehill. Or Coleman Hawkins. etc., etc.
It wsn't that simple. I think of it more as historical era
delineations.
That which was not rag, nor swing, nor what came between those two, nor
Bop, nor pre-Bop, nor post-Bop, was Third Stream. But, according to
Schuller's defining the point of departure, wasn't, 1924, Rhapsody in
Blue? and Stravinsky's 1945 Ebony Concerto? or his 1923 Octet for
Winds? or, the Firebird, 1909-10?, for a few. And then there was Darius
Milhaud.
Check this out. Igor Stravinsky. Piano-Rag-Music. 1919.
And there's the entire catalog of ECM Records.
In Sum, there is no Sum. For me, this morning, it's easier to say what
Third Stream isn't than what it is or was.
BIrd. Bud. Dizzy. Blakey. Chu Berry. Louis. Billie. Ella. Benny
.. and Benny. Sidney Bechet. Prez. Ben Webster. and the other few
thousand Great Gentlemen - and Great Ladies - of Jazz who were not Third
Stream, were not Third Stream. Definitely not. Clear on that?
neon, m.
DTohir
>Birth of the Cool". Capitol. 1963. Schuller played French horn w.
>Miles' nonet on it.
>
>But, Jimmy Giuffre had pre-dated "Cool's" attempt with "Fugue" in 1953.
Not so sure about that. "Birth of the Cool" was recorded at various sessions
from 1948 to 1950.
void
of confusion. ;-)
midtown neon
I slaved for over an hour trying to answer the 3rd Stream query -- and
one part of it continue troubling me. D.Tohir caught it.
The correct "Birth of the Cool" dates.
Now, Tohir is right. The LP was a chop job. Capitol was attempting to
answer the same question, sorta -- and put together
guys, Davis and Tristano, especially, who I believe would have crossed
the street to avoid meeting one another. Or, would have nodded politely
in passing, but would not have stopped to chat, having nothing, neither
of them, then, to have stopped to chat about.
Bud.
I was using 3 reference books, in writing that letter. and, I went to
get the record so as to copy dates data off the liner notes. and ... it
wasn't there! Which was fairly unbelievable, the Miles section being
front and center, between Bird and Trane. [bcause Miles overlapped with
both].
I never listen to that record. It's history. Therefore there was never
no need to move it. But moved, it was. And to where?
I had other jobs; and I had to send that letter, too. Knowing that '63
was Capitol's release date, but that the cuts had all been made separate
from each other,and at different times. Did I really write '63? This is
getting worse and worse. '63 was the reprint issue's date. "Cool" was
1958.
Which, my book before me says, was a reprint of the '49 sessions. So
why isn't 1949 a prime date listing in Umphred's?
Anyhow, I sent it off, figuring to find my original with the liner notes
when I got home. Without our liner notes we're nothing. That's a joke,
Son. But it's true.
So anyhow, I got home and tore up half the room, looking. and I found a
whole lotta great and out-of-touch stuff -- all oldies, but not that
one.
Dig this! I still have one wall to go. One wall of records to go.
It's behind file drawers and stacked cartons. But -- I'll find it! You
know -- when something's misplaced or lost, and you're looking for it,
and you find it -- it's always in the last place you look.
Till Then.
neon, m.
midtown neon
If so, that is a it of a stretch." wrote Mike West.
I did, Pilgrim. And I'll have you know that Ted Gioia in his recent
"The History of Jazz" credits Gunther Schuller with having coined the
term in 1957. Furthermore, he noted that Schuller specifially meant it
in use to describe the Davis nonet's cut, "Jeru" in which Schuller
played French horn.
neon, m.
Mike West
DTohir <dto...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990830153729...@ng-co1.aol.com...
Yes, those dates are certainly more like it.
But I seem to have lost part of this thread. Did
someone cite B. of the C. as an example of Third Stream
music? If so, that is a bit of a stretch.
The term came into general use (in the jazz press,
anyway) around the time of the orchestral 'experiments'
led by John Lewis and Gunther Schuller; i.e. late
'50s, early '60s. It had to do with very
self-consciously marrying jazz improvisation to the
European orchestral music tradition. The 'Golden
Striker' album is likely to be the most definitive
example. But even then, there was argument about
whether the term or the concept had any validity.
'Cool' jazz, while certainly a precursor of these
experiments, was something else again.
I apologize if I am rehashing something already
stated --- but this apparent misidentification of B. of
the C. with Third Stream struck me as needing
qualification.
Mike
Mark Garvin
>--
> Ben
<g>
Or you could spend $15 on a CD called "Birth of the Third Stream".
It has all the stuff from the famous Columbia CL941 "Music for Brass"
recording with Miles, John Lewis, JJ Johnson, Giuffre, Schuller, etc.
PLUS some great George Russell and Mingus.
That will say it, as far as defining Third Stream. Some beautiful
playing and rich orchestration.
The Schuller piece "Symphony for Brass" may be the only obstacle as
far as complex tonality goes, but I learned a lot from studying that
score. Schuller has written some great classical music.
I can look up the number of the CD if you need it. I believe it's
still in print.
MGarvin
Matti
> Modern Jazz Quartet along with other musicians and "Jazz Abstractions"
> which has recently been reissued (coupled with "The Golden Striker") by
> Collectables. Subsequently, the MJQ made several recordings with
Do you mean "Jazz abstractions" by Gunther Schuller which included
his compositions/variations on themes by Monk and Lewis,
with Dolphy, Hutcherson and other top jazzmen playing as soloists?
Has this been reissued or the "Third Stream Music" by MJQ or both?
I have been looking for both of these. Can I find them on the Internet?
--
Greetings,
Matti Nevalainen
Howard Peirce
> Schuller has written some great classical music.
My legit trumpet teacher in college played in a brass quintet with Schuller
when both were young men (early '50s, maybe?). I remember him telling me of a
Stravinsky brass quintet that Schuller "discovered." They performed it
frequently, got it recorded somehow, and it caused a huge stir in the local
classical music scene--theorists and historians getting into all kinds of
arguments about its authenticity and value. Once the local "authorities" had
determined the piece was indeed by Stravinsky, Schuller revealed the
fraud--presumably before Igor got wind of it, who was still alive and kickin'
at the time. Quite a stunt.
HP
midtown neon
I ask as, in searching for that title by Igor Stravinsky, I got no
result. I did, however locate Q for B creditted to dozens of other
composers, including Andre Previn.
neon, m.
Howard Peirce
No, it was a deliberate fraud, composed by Schuller, not Stravinsky. I
thought that was clear by putting "discovered" in quotes, and saying
that Schuller "revealed the fraud." Ah, the limitations of text. Sorry
for the mixup.
Well, "fraud" is probably too harsh a word--"prank" is closer to the
spirit. To the best of my knowledge, Stravinsky never wrote a brass
quintet. As someone who composes now and again, I find the idea of
dashing off an expert-fooling brass quintet in the style of Stravinsky
as a joke just mind-boggling.
Caveat: I've only heard this story from my teacher in college. I've
never heard it confirmed by Schuller or anyone else. It may not have
occurred, or occurred differently than I remember it, or differently
than my teacher remembered it. Basically, I hadn't practiced, so I was
distracting my teacher by engaging in unrelated conversation. I must've
mentioned Schuller in some jazz context. He said, "I used to play in a
brass quintet with Gunther. I was in the Air Force band and he was
teaching in the town where I was stationed. He was a joker. In fact, I
remember one time . . . [faraway twinkle in eye, Stravinsky story
ensues]."
HP
midtown neon
curiousity had got piqued. So, I researched Stravinsky and found no
attribution to him for a Brass Quintet.
Then, I dug further into ASCAP's files and found so many BQ's, none by
Stravinsky of course, but many by many others, including, as mentioned,
one by Andre Previn. (And one by Ralph Shapey.)
At that point, I posted to the RMB the query as to whether a Q for B had
been a standard class assignment. OK? I never did get an answer to
that. Anybody know?
neon, m.
Howard Peirce
> At that point, I posted to the RMB the query as to whether a Q for B had
> been a standard class assignment. OK? I never did get an answer to
> that. Anybody know?
I don't think so. Maybe at some schools, certainly not all, certainly not
at mine. It's a standard chamber ensemble, and there's great demand for new
music. "Quintet for Brass" is a fairly generic title. You know how those
classical guys are with the generic titles--"Concerto for Violin,"
"Symphony for Orchestra," that sort of thing.
I would imagine that many of the Quintets you found listed were commisions,
rather than assignments. The major quintets are always commisioning new
works, particularly from more conservative composers. And composers are
happy to write them, since it's likely they'll get multiple performances,
by different ensembles--maybe even make some money.
HP
DTohir
>been a standard class assignment. OK? I never did get an answer to
>that. Anybody know?
I'd suspect that it'd not be uncommon as an assignment, but that'd be because,
much like the string quartet, the brass quintet is a standard performing group.
Dennis J. Kosterman
neon) wrote:
>"Did someone cite Birth of the Cool as an example of Third Stream music?
>If so, that is a bit of a stretch." wrote Mike West.
>
>I did, Pilgrim. And I'll have you know that Ted Gioia in his recent
>"The History of Jazz" credits Gunther Schuller with having coined the
>term in 1957. Furthermore, he noted that Schuller specifially meant it
>in use to describe the Davis nonet's cut, "Jeru" in which Schuller
>played French horn.
My initial reaction was the same as Mike West's -- I've always thought
of third stream music as starting in the mid-50s, years after "Birth
of the Cool", and I've never thought of "BotC" as being third stream.
I also wasn't aware that Schuller coined the word specifically to
refer to "Jeru" -- this is the first time I've seen that story, and
I'm not sure if I believe it, but whether it's true or not, it makes
more sense the more I think about it, and so does neon's view on all
this.
It's not much of a stretch at all to think of the Miles Davis/Gil
Evans collaborations as "third stream" -- they mostly used existing
compositions rather than writing new ones, but the overall sound and
atmosphere is in the same vein as other third stream music.
And the Davis/Evans recordings were a direct outgrowth of the "Birth
of the Cool" project. The first one, "Miles Ahead", was an explicit
attempt to do the same kind of thing, but with a larger band. And when
you listen to "BotC" with all this in mind, it does have a lot in
common with the later third stream music -- the emphasis on
composition, arrangement, and orchestration (improvisation is still an
important element, but it doesn't dominate like it does in bebop).
Yeah, I'll accept "BotC" as an early example of third stream...
Dennis J. Kosterman
den...@tds.net
Michael Fitzgerald
Kosterman) wrote:
>It's not much of a stretch at all to think of the Miles Davis/Gil
>Evans collaborations as "third stream" -- they mostly used existing
>compositions rather than writing new ones, but the overall sound and
>atmosphere is in the same vein as other third stream music.
>
>And the Davis/Evans recordings were a direct outgrowth of the "Birth
>of the Cool" project. The first one, "Miles Ahead", was an explicit
>attempt to do the same kind of thing, but with a larger band. And when
>you listen to "BotC" with all this in mind, it does have a lot in
>common with the later third stream music -- the emphasis on
>composition, arrangement, and orchestration (improvisation is still an
>important element, but it doesn't dominate like it does in bebop).
The Birth of the Cool band was an attempt to get the sound and color
of the Claude Thornhill band (which had a rather different sound with
French horn and tuba) in as small an ensemble as possible. It reduces
the section work of a big band down to a chamber group - one on a
part.
The Davis/Evans records weren't really an outgrowth of this at all.
Porgy, Sketches, and Quiet Nights were more just sequels to Miles
Ahead, and Miles Ahead was more of a direct outgrowth of the "Music
For Brass" thing that Miles participated in as a soloist, playing on
J.J. Johnson's "Poem For Brass" and John Lewis's "Three Little
Feelings."
That soloist/large ensemble concept is very much different from the
tightly interlaced approach that is the Birth of the Cool. Yes, the
Davis/Evans connection is easy to spot, but I think it's deceptive.
Miles on the later things is a singer, a soloist in the spotlight as
opposed to an equal with Konitz, J.J., Mulligan, et al. It's not about
Birth of the Cool with a larger band.
The writing on the later albums is often done "avec Miles" and "sans
Miles" - with and without. And as we now know, quite a bit of it was
recorded that way, with Miles overdubbing his solos when necessary. I
can't even begin to imagine that being done with the Birth of the Cool
stuff because each line is so integral to the whole.
I really wish that Gil and Miles got it together and did the album of
opera arias that was mentioned at one time.
As for the "third-streamedness" of any of this - yes, there are
connections. But I think that the best third-stream music is the kind
that defies definition - is it classical? is it jazz? I can't tell.
And the Miles/Gil music as well as the Birth of the Cool stuff is too
clearly jazz to be a prime example of the ideal (Sketches being the
notable exception). I would look to that "Music For Brass" album more.
The emphasis on writing over improvisation is not what defines
third-stream, to me. It's *how* the writing (and the solos) are
approached. There are classical elements of development that can be
used, as opposed to what are traditional jazz elements. I could write
an entire chart in a Basie style, with no solos and that doesn't make
it more third-stream or anything. You have to include the right
ingredients. And those involve imitative counterpoint, motivic devices
like augmentation and diminution, sequence, extensions to the form,
modulation, atonality, certain harmonic structures that aren't part of
the jazz vernacular, orchestrational elements (often, but not always,
strings), unstated rhythmic pulse, use of rubato, and on and on. Yes,
you can find instances of these things in a lot of jazz, but it's in
the application - if I could describe it, one wouldn't need to hear
it. And you DO need to hear it. So listen.
If I haven't mentioned it already, my website features a heavy dose of
third-stream info in the Lenox School of Jazz section, which now
includes a new page on recordings that might interest those reading
this thread.
Mike
Mike West
midtown neon <no...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:3347-37C...@newsd-142.iap.bryant.webtv.net..
.
> "Did someone cite Birth of the Cool as an example of
Third Stream music?
>
> I did, Pilgrim. And I'll have you know that Ted
Gioia in his recent
> "The History of Jazz" credits Gunther Schuller with
having coined the
> term in 1957. Furthermore, he noted that Schuller
specifially meant it
> in use to describe the Davis nonet's cut, "Jeru" in
which Schuller
> played French horn.
>
>
Well, then, Ted Gioia and I are in general agreement on
when the term came into general use.
What Schuller was doing with jazz soloists and
symphonic orchestrations in the late 'fifties and early
'sixties was very different in essential ways from what
the 'Birth of the Cool' collaboration had produced a
decade earlier. I wrote that it was a 'bit of a
stretch' to consider them both part of the same
movement. I didn't say there was no historical
connection, because there clearly is.
Michael Fitzgerald has pinpointed the essential
differences and similarities with more precision than I
can muster.
(Another) Mike
midtown neon
and sometimes we find it. And sometimes in the n.g. format, we find
information that's incredibly richer than mere accuracy in the numbers
game alone would have afforded us.
On Aug. 30/31 and on Sep. 1, there was a letters exchange here which I
found exceptionally rewarding. The topic, all in response to one
reader's simple query, "What's Third Stream?", was ... rich.
18 letters from 10 readers.
Going into it, I knew a little. Coming out of it, I knew more. But the
excitement in the interchange of thoughts was the best part. It's an
event like that which makes n.g. participation seem worthwhile.
Yesterday, Sep.8, I got 3 letters from Chuck Nessa. Some excerpts are:
"I'm sending this to you, not the group. You have your dates/history
screwed up. >Birth of The Cool info.<. As Prez would have said, more
thought and less typing is a virtue."
"All I ask is that you know what you type."
"You have jumped into this group, and let your fingers run wild. I
would suggest a bit more thought."
.
I doubt that Prez would have said that. Prez did say, often, "How's my
eyes?"
But, that's not the point, tho' maybe it should be.
Chuck Nessa, any of us, all of us, have our rights to freedom of
expressio. But I don't even know if that's of issue here. In fact ...
there is no issue here. I like to write letters. Chuck seems to, also.
We all do. That's why we're here. To read, to write. and ... again.
But, I did feel that the Nessa-neon letters exchange was relevant to
this thread.
I had suggested to Chuck that I'd be glad to see the complete colloquy
posted here,
Chuck seems to have declined the opportunity.
Anyone wishing to read the letters exchange has only to ask. I'll be
glad to forward copies on request.
I think that Chuck's salient thrust was contained in "You have jumped
into this group...."
But, that's no big deal.
neon, m.
Simon Weil
<snip>
>Yesterday, Sep.8, I got 3 letters from Chuck Nessa. Some excerpts are:
>
>"I'm sending this to you, not the group
>But, I did feel that the Nessa-neon letters exchange was relevant to
>this thread.
>I had suggested to Chuck that I'd be glad to see the complete colloquy
>posted here,
>Chuck seems to have declined the opportunity.
FYI
If Chuck wanted this stuff posted on the group he wouldn't have sent it to you
privately and especially he wouldn't have said "I'm sending this to you, not
the group". If you post e-mail on usenet without the writer's permission (as
you appear to be doing here) you are going against usenet etiquette. It has
happened here in the past and been frowned upon.
Let us keep private discussions private.
Simon Weil
104#s
Nightmares" is third stream in my opinion including
classical and world music.
There is, on a Bill Evans cut of Granados a beautiful third
stream interlude with symphony. I've just discovered
it.......
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