solo by Benny Goodman's pianist on NPR
Arthur Strum
Pardon my ignorance about the following, but I have never listened to
swing. Last night on NPR I heard just a snippet of what must have been
a discussion of Benny Goodman. One of the discussants described a solo
by Benny Goodman's piano player -- one in which he appears to noodle at
the beginning, then arrives at a cadence. I then heard the whole piece,
but couldn't listen to the subsequent discussion. The solo was amazing.
Can anyone tell me the piece of music, who might have been listening
last night? It was a live recording (1938?) at which, apparently, Duke
Ellington and some other notables were present.
Thanks in advance
Art Strum
Steven
"Spirituals to Swing" concert, the pianist was Jess Stacey. The concert
was put together by legendary Columbia A&R man John Hammond, partly to
promote his artists, partly to give jazz and African-American music the
more serious critical attention it deserved, partly to present black and
white artists together in a spirit of equality. He certainly succeeded
beyond any of his possible expectations. The concert can rightly be
considered a turning point in 20th century music, even if more for
socio-cultural reasons than purely musical ones.
Columbia has issued a CD of the concert that is easily available. This
concert has been written about thousands of times, you should have no
trouble learning more about it.
---Steven
Arthur Strum <st...@stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:010220000731525847%st...@stanford.edu...
Piotr Michalowski
Arthur Strum wrote:
>
> Pardon my ignorance about the following, but I have never listened to
> swing. Last night on NPR I heard just a snippet of what must have been
> a discussion of Benny Goodman. One of the discussants described a solo
> by Benny Goodman's piano player -- one in which he appears to noodle at
> the beginning, then arrives at a cadence. I then heard the whole piece,
> but couldn't listen to the subsequent discussion. The solo was amazing.
> Can anyone tell me the piece of music, who might have been listening
> last night? It was a live recording (1938?) at which, apparently, Duke
> Ellington and some other notables were present.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
It must have been Jess Stacy on Sing, Sing, Sing.
Piotr
Steven
Topic: Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert
From: Robin Lenhart
Topic: Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert
Message: 1 of 29
Sent: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 16:19:15 -0500
See Also: Bluenote, Big Band Music
This long promised reissue finally was released Tuesday.
It includes "Sometimes I'm Happy" and "If Dreams Come True" which
previously were available only on bootleg records and the complete
"Honeysuckle Rose" jam session.
If you're a completist and these are important to you, buy the set
otherwise stick with what you have. We played the new CD's in the store
yesterday and sonically I feel they're a step backwards from the
original. Be prepared to hear surface noise. LOTS of it. The noise is
especially bad in SING, SING, SING.
Reply to this message
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
From: Alan Lawrence
Topic: Re: Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert
Message: 2 of 29 (In response to Robin Lenhart)
Sent: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 17:26:36 -0800
See Also: Bluenote, Big Band Music
I found the sound unlistenable. I would rather listen to the older cd
issue. I found this to be true with the Duke mega-box from RCA. It's one
thing to stay true to the music, but not if you can't listen to it.
Robin Lenhart <rlen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3821F853...@worldnet.att.net...
message by Robin Lenhart
Reply to this message
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
From: Ulf Åbjörnsson
Topic: SV: Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert
Message: 3 of 29 (In response to Alan Lawrence)
Sent: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 09:07:58 +0100
See Also: Bluenote, Big Band Music
Other listers praise the sound. Maybe something is wrong with your
hearing aid? ;-))
Ulf in Svedala
Alan Lawrence <alaw...@jazzloft.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:3822...@news.nwlink.com...
message by "Alan Lawrence"
Reply to this message
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
From: Leo Scanlon
Topic: Re: Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert
Message: 4 of 29 (In response to Robin Lenhart)
Sent: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 12:52:07 GMT
See Also: Bluenote, Big Band Music
On Thu, 04 Nov 1999 16:19:15 -0500, Robin Lenhart
<rlen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
We played the new CD's in the store
yesterday and sonically I feel they're a step backwards from the
original. Be prepared to hear surface noise. LOTS of it. The noise is
especially bad in SING, SING, SING.
Well, that's a real disappointment -- and unusual for Columbia/Legacy.
They usually do a great job enhancing old material. Listen to the
Dorsey-Sinatra box set, for example.
Leo
Reply to this message
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
From: Robin Lenhart
Topic: Re: Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert
Message: 5 of 29 (In response to Alan Lawrence)
Sent: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 11:28:16 -0500
See Also: Big Band Music
Not unlistenable. Disappointing. There are parts that are definite
improvements over the original release but overall unless you don't
already have the two 'new' tracks or want the complete "Honeysuckle
Rose" I would suggest you save your money and stick with the original
issue.
A quick look at the CD slipcase makes it appear as though there's lots
more new material on this issue but Columbia counts as "previously
unreleased" about 8 minutes of applause (they seem quite proud of this;
the applause is marked with an asterisk to highlight it as something not
heard before) and some 4 minutes of BG spoken introductions to the music
(harmless but not needed).
I don't buy the 'to remove the noise from the discs would have detracted
from the music' argument. They didn't even take the noise out from the
previously unreleased 8 minutes of applause. Would noise suppresion have
detracted from the sound of hands
clapping? -------------------------------------
Alan Lawrence wrote:
message by "Alan Lawrence"
Reply to this message
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
From: David Weiner
Topic: Re: Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert
Message: 6 of 29 (In response to Leo Scanlon)
Sent: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 20:49:29 GMT
See Also: Bluenote, Big Band Music
lsca...@erols.com (Leo Scanlon) wrote:
message by Leo Scanlon <lsca...@erols.com>
The Dorsey/Sinatra set was RCA...
Dave W.
Reply to this message
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
From: David Weiner
Topic: Re: Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert
Message: 7 of 29 (In response to Robin Lenhart)
Sent: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 20:49:30 GMT
See Also: Bluenote, Big Band Music
Robin Lenhart <rlen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
message by Robin Lenhart
After a careful listen, VERY scratchy, yes, but much clearer than the
obviously muffled previous CD transfer. I'll take the scratch.
Dave W.
Reply to this message
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
From: Robin Lenhart
Topic: Re: Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert
Message: 8 of 29 (In response to David Weiner)
Sent: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 16:43:33 -0500
See Also: Bluenote, Big Band Music
David Weiner wrote:
Robin Lenhart <rlen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Be prepared to hear surface noise. LOTS of it. The noise is especially
bad in SING, SING, SING.
After a careful listen, VERY scratchy, yes, but much clearer than the
obviously muffled previous CD transfer. I'll take the scratch.
There are parts that are a definite improvement over the original. I
still believe Columbia could have done a better job cleaning up the
noise. They do make mention of the surface noise but it's in the booklet
so the consumer doesn't know about it until after they've purchased the
CD.
We displayed this set the weeks new jazz releases. We sold eight copies
(including mine) which is a very good for this type product. Two
customers brought their CD's back thinking there was something wrong
with the manufacture of the CD's; another, who frequents the store on an
almost every day basis commented he was disappointed with the sound.
Reply to this message
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
From: Loren Schoenberg
Topic: Re: SV: Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert
Message: 9 of 29 (In response to Ulf bjrnsson)
Sent: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 06:14:14 GMT
See Also: Bluenote, Big Band Music
I have to add that I am distressed by the sound of this reissue. I know
Phil Schaap has done wonders with sound for many years, but the first
segment especially of this reissue is virtually unlistenable.
I have many reissues that sound better (as does the original issue).
Of course it is important to have the new music, but I would bet that
many radio stations will find several tracks unusuable, the upshot being
that this music will not be heard.
I don't get it.
LJS
"Ulf Åbjörnsson" <aabj...@algonet.se> wrote:
message by "Ulf Åbjörnsson"
Reply to this message
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
From: Leo Scanlon
Topic: Re: Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert
Message: 10 of 29 (In response to David Weiner)
Sent: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 14:59:33 GMT
See Also: Bluenote, Big Band Music
On Fri, 05 Nov 1999 20:49:29 GMT, djw...@earthlink.net (David Weiner)
wrote:
lsca...@erols.com (Leo Scanlon) wrote:
[snip]
Well, that's a real disappointment -- and unusual for Columbia/Legacy.
They usually do a great job enhancing old material. Listen to the
Dorsey-Sinatra box set, for example.
Leo
The Dorsey/Sinatra set was RCA...
Aaargh. You're right, of course. That's what I get for computing early
in the morning. (The Sinatra-Dorsey does have great sound, however.)
I *should* have referred to "Portrait of Sinatra" or "Swing and Dance
With Frank Sinatra," both from Columbia Legacy, both produced by Sinatra
superfan Chuck Granata, both have a marvelous, warm tone quality.
Leo
Reply to this message
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
From: Jack Woker
Topic: Re: SV: Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert
Message: 11 of 29 (In response to Loren Schoenberg)
Sent: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 08:30:11 -0800
See Also: Bluenote, Big Band Music
> I don't get it.
I'm rather surprised by the negative reaction this is getting. I got an
advance copy of this (sans artwork) a few weeks ago, and have listened
all the way through twice. Yes, there is surface noise audible in
places, but overall I have to say that I am pleased with the transfers.
This was dubbed from acetate discs that are 60 years old which obviously
have suffered some deterioration over the years. Yet, I think that
Columbia has done a fine job in getting the most out these discs.
They could have gone from old transfers, which they did in the previous
CD incarnation, but in my opinion the sound is much improved here.
jack
David Weiner
the John Hammond-sponsored "Spirituals to Swing" concerts were in
December 1938 and December 1939 and were unrelated to the Goodman
concert.
Dave W.
"Steven" <steve...@xx--xx.com> wrote:
>The piece was "Sing, Sing, Sing" from the very famous 1938 Carnegie Hall
>"Spirituals to Swing" concert, the pianist was Jess Stacey. The concert
>was put together by legendary Columbia A&R man John Hammond, partly to
>promote his artists, partly to give jazz and African-American music the
>more serious critical attention it deserved, partly to present black and
>white artists together in a spirit of equality. He certainly succeeded
>beyond any of his possible expectations. The concert can rightly be
>considered a turning point in 20th century music, even if more for
>socio-cultural reasons than purely musical ones.
>
>Columbia has issued a CD of the concert that is easily available. This
>concert has been written about thousands of times, you should have no
>trouble learning more about it.
>
>---Steven
>
>Arthur Strum <st...@stanford.edu> wrote in message
>news:010220000731525847%st...@stanford.edu...
>>
>> Pardon my ignorance about the following, but I have never listened to
>> swing. Last night on NPR I heard just a snippet of what must have been
>> a discussion of Benny Goodman. One of the discussants described a solo
>> by Benny Goodman's piano player -- one in which he appears to noodle
>at
>> the beginning, then arrives at a cadence. I then heard the whole
>piece,
>> but couldn't listen to the subsequent discussion. The solo was
>amazing.
>> Can anyone tell me the piece of music, who might have been listening
>> last night? It was a live recording (1938?) at which, apparently, Duke
>> Ellington and some other notables were present.
>>
>> Thanks in advance
>>
>> Art Strum
>
>
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Goodman's Big Band and a lot of guests, among them not Duke Ellington but
some of his musicians.
The piano player might have been Jess Stacy and the solo on Sing Sing Sing.
The complete concert is recently released by Columbia.
Ulf in Svedala
Arthur Strum <st...@stanford.edu> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:010220000731525847%st...@stanford.edu...
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Swing" series as far as I know. It was the very first jazz concert ever at
the Carnegie Hall.
Ulf in Svedala
Steven <steve...@xx--xx.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:sWDl4.1628$hT2....@news1.rdc1.ct.home.com...
> The piece was "Sing, Sing, Sing" from the very famous 1938 Carnegie Hall
> "Spirituals to Swing" concert, the pianist was Jess Stacey. > Columbia has
Damon Short
you refer to was Goodman's alone (with guests...)
Steven wrote:
>
> The piece was "Sing, Sing, Sing" from the very famous 1938 Carnegie Hall
> "Spirituals to Swing" concert, the pianist was Jess Stacey. The concert
> was put together by legendary Columbia A&R man John Hammond, partly to
> promote his artists, partly to give jazz and African-American music the
> more serious critical attention it deserved, partly to present black and
> white artists together in a spirit of equality. He certainly succeeded
> beyond any of his possible expectations. The concert can rightly be
> considered a turning point in 20th century music, even if more for
> socio-cultural reasons than purely musical ones.
>
> Columbia has issued a CD of the concert that is easily available. This
> concert has been written about thousands of times, you should have no
> trouble learning more about it.
>
> ---Steven
>
> Arthur Strum <st...@stanford.edu> wrote in message
> news:010220000731525847%st...@stanford.edu...
Bruce LeClaire
I heard the end of this broadcast on NPR. It was so good that I had to
sit in my car to finish listening to "Sing, sing, sing" even if I was
going to be late! (But Steven is right about the surface noise, it's
horrible-- can't they filter that out?) This song is why I wanted to
play clarinet back in school.
But Art was correct about Duke being in the audience that night, at
least if the NPR show is to be believed. I distinctly remember them
mentioning that Duke, Basie and Teddy Edwards were present (this was in
connection with Stacy's feeling a little intimidated-- maybe it was just
to make for a good story).
--Bruce
PS- Were the arrangements done by Fletcher Henderson? Did the radio
program mention the arranger? I tried to look for this info at AMG to no
avail (I can find who wrote the liner notes, but no arranger- go
figure).
Steve Bosarge
Ulf wrote:
> It must have been from the Carnegie Hall Concert in January 1938, with
Bennt
> Goodman's Big Band and a lot of guests, among them not Duke Ellington but
> some of his musicians.
>
> The piano player might have been Jess Stacy and the solo on Sing Sing
Sing.
>
> The complete concert is recently released by Columbia.
>
Jess Stacy was the improvising soloist on Sing Sing Sing, and it is
interesting that Teddy Wilson was there, seated with the band or backstage.
While Stacy got the glory that night at Carnegie Hall, Wilson was a
principal figure three years earlier on the occasion that led up to Stacy
putting icing on the cake. (As a swinging pianist, I think Jess Stacy
easily outclassed Wilson)
No big fan of Benny Goodman, I believe that he earned a lion's share of
credit for the two key
events most crucial in launching Swing as a national musical movement.
Stacy's celebrated ad lib performance, at Goodman's unexpected signal, was
the second event. The first was the nationwide broadcast of the Goodman
band's historic blowout before a wild crowd in Los Angeles' Palomar
Ballroom, August 21, 1935. Wilson was at the piano on that occasion.
Steve Bosarge
Bruce LeClaire
Bruce LeClaire wrote:
>
> Re: NPR's 100 most important American musical works of the 20th century.
> I distinctly remember them mentioning that Duke, Basie and
> Teddy Edwards were present
^^^^^
Should read Wilson? (I just read Steve's post). Sorry.
By the way, NPR is making (some/all?) of these programs available on
real audio. Here's the ref:
http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/vote/list100.html
They list the 100 events, and at the bottom of the page are the links to
previous shows. Kind of Blue was last week's event.
--(dazed and confused) Bruce
Steve Bosarge
Bruce LeClaire wrote, in part:
> Bruce LeClaire wrote, in part::
> >
>
> > I distinctly remember them mentioning that Duke, Basie and
> > Teddy Edwards were present
> ^^^^^
> Should read Wilson? (I just read Steve's post). Sorry.
>
Not questioning your information, Bruce, and hoping this won't make you feel
more "dazed and confused," but my understanding is that some Ellington and
Basie band members were present, not Ellington and Basie themselves.
???
Steve Bosarge
Brian Chipney
Not to be argumentative, but ........Teddy Wilson wasn't with Goodman when
they played the Palomar for the first time in '35. Jess Stacy was the band's
pianist on their cross-country trip from New York to L.A. and back again The
Goodman Trio had recorded in July, but Wilson was not a member of the
entourage at that point, and there are no Trio performances on air-checks by
Goodman from this period. Wilson flew in to Chicago to join Goodman for a
concert at the Congress Hotel on Easter Sunday, 1936. This was the first
time they had performed in public together before a paying audience. Not
sure if Wilson joined Goodman on a permanent basis at this point precisely,
but he did that sometime between then and September 22, when the Trio's
first preserved radio performance took place. Interestingly, the Quartet
first recorded during this period, on August 21, 1936, though Hampton
likewise did not join Goodman right away. He wasn't on hand till November.
In any case, I suspect that it wasn't one specific broadcast by Goodman that
ignited the Swing Era. More of a cumulative effect. I also doubt that
Stacy's choruses on Sing Sing had much to do with launching the Swing Era as
a national movement. A) The concert was not broadcast, so whatever effect it
had would have been limited to the people in the Hall that night; B) By
January of 1938, Swing was well established anyway, and in fact Goodman was
just a couple of months away from losing Gene Krupa and having this edition
of the band gradually go stale. Artie Shaw was looming on the horizon,
getting set to Begin the Beguine ......
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Steve Bosarge <new-c...@mciworld.com> skrev > Not questioning your
information, Bruce, and hoping this won't make you feel
> more "dazed and confused," but my understanding is that some Ellington and
> Basie band members were present, not Ellington and Basie themselves.
> ???
>
> Steve Bosarge
>
played in the "jam session" part of the concert.
Ulf in Svedala
Hal Vickery
<new-c...@mciworld.com> wrote:
> Ulf wrote:
> > It must have been from the Carnegie Hall Concert in January 1938, with
> Bennt
> > Goodman's Big Band and a lot of guests, among them not Duke Ellington but
> > some of his musicians.
> >
> > The piano player might have been Jess Stacy and the solo on Sing Sing
> Sing.
> >
> > The complete concert is recently released by Columbia.
> >
>
> Jess Stacy was the improvising soloist on Sing Sing Sing, and it is
> interesting that Teddy Wilson was there, seated with the band or backstage.
> While Stacy got the glory that night at Carnegie Hall, Wilson was a
> principal figure three years earlier on the occasion that led up to Stacy
> putting icing on the cake. (As a swinging pianist, I think Jess Stacy
> easily outclassed Wilson)
>
> No big fan of Benny Goodman, I believe that he earned a lion's share of
> credit for the two key
> events most crucial in launching Swing as a national musical movement.
> Stacy's celebrated ad lib performance, at Goodman's unexpected signal, was
> the second event. The first was the nationwide broadcast of the Goodman
> band's historic blowout before a wild crowd in Los Angeles' Palomar
> Ballroom, August 21, 1935. Wilson was at the piano on that occasion.
I don't think Wilson ever played piano with the full band. His role was
limited afaik to the trio and quartet sessions.
nsmf
JackleeT
>swing. Last night on NPR I heard just a snippet of what must have been
>a discussion of Benny Goodman. One of the discussants described a solo
>by Benny Goodman's piano player -- one in which he appears to noodle at
>the beginning, then arrives at a cadence. I then heard the whole piece,
>but couldn't listen to the subsequent discussion. The solo was amazing.
>Can anyone tell me the piece of music, who might have been listening
>last night? It was a live recording (1938?) at which, apparently, Duke
>Ellington and some other notables were present.
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>Art Strum
>
Benny Goodman 1938 Carnegie Hall concert.
Jack Tracy
Jack Woker
> more "dazed and confused," but my understanding is that some Ellington and
> Basie band members were present, not Ellington and Basie themselves.
Count Basie was among the guests who performed that night - Duke was
not, although several of his sidemen were.
jack
DOUG NORWOOD
All true. Recordings of the Carnegie Hall concert were not issued until the
'50s so Stacy's solo became well known to jazz enthusiasts long after the
Swing Era was long past.
DougN
Brian Chipney <spit...@total.delete_this_to_reply.net> wrote in message
news:9NQl4.631$C56....@news.total.net...
....
Steven
different concerts merged in my feeble little brain. I've listened many
times to the Goodman concert, I'm glad that I'm now straightened out
about the event.
Is it fair to say that 1938 was a turning point for jazz's place in the
larger culture? Could you say that before then it wasn't clear to the
wider culture whether jazz was anything more than a passing fad?
---Steven
David Weiner <djw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:38973590...@news.earthlink.net...
> It was from the Benny Goodman Carnegie Hall Concert in January 1938 -
> the John Hammond-sponsored "Spirituals to Swing" concerts were in
> December 1938 and December 1939 and were unrelated to the Goodman
> concert.
>
> Dave W.
>
>
> "Steven" <steve...@xx--xx.com> wrote:
>
> >The piece was "Sing, Sing, Sing" from the very famous 1938 Carnegie
Hall
> >"Spirituals to Swing" concert, the pianist was Jess Stacey. The
concert
> >was put together by legendary Columbia A&R man John Hammond, partly
to
> >promote his artists, partly to give jazz and African-American music
the
> >more serious critical attention it deserved, partly to present black
and
> >white artists together in a spirit of equality. He certainly
succeeded
> >beyond any of his possible expectations. The concert can rightly be
> >considered a turning point in 20th century music, even if more for
> >socio-cultural reasons than purely musical ones.
> >
> >Columbia has issued a CD of the concert that is easily available.
This
> >concert has been written about thousands of times, you should have no
> >trouble learning more about it.
> >
> >---Steven
> >
> >Arthur Strum <st...@stanford.edu> wrote in message
> >news:010220000731525847%st...@stanford.edu...
> >>
Steve Bosarge
Brian Chipney wrote:
> Steve Bosarge wrote:
> >While Stacy got the glory that night at Carnegie Hall, Wilson was a
> >principal figure three years earlier on the occasion that led up to Stacy
> >putting icing on the cake. (As a swinging pianist, I think Jess Stacy
> >easily outclassed Wilson)
> >
> >No big fan of Benny Goodman, I believe that he earned a lion's share of
> >credit for the two key
> >events most crucial in launching Swing as a national musical movement.
> >Stacy's celebrated ad lib performance, at Goodman's unexpected signal,
was
> >the second event. The first was the nationwide broadcast of the Goodman
> >band's historic blowout before a wild crowd in Los Angeles' Palomar
> >Ballroom, August 21, 1935. Wilson was at the piano on that occasion.
> Not to be argumentative, but ........Teddy Wilson wasn't with Goodman when
> they played the Palomar for the first time in '35. Jess Stacy was the
band's
> pianist on their cross-country trip from New York to L.A. and back again
The
> Goodman Trio had recorded in July, but Wilson was not a member of the
> entourage at that point, and there are no Trio performances on air-checks
by
> Goodman from this period. Wilson flew in to Chicago to join Goodman for a
> concert at the Congress Hotel on Easter Sunday, 1936. This was the first
> time they had performed in public together before a paying audience. Not
> sure if Wilson joined Goodman on a permanent basis at this point
precisely,
> but he did that sometime between then and September 22, when the Trio's
> first preserved radio performance took place. Interestingly, the Quartet
> first recorded during this period, on August 21, 1936, though Hampton
> likewise did not join Goodman right away. He wasn't on hand till November.
> In any case, I suspect that it wasn't one specific broadcast by Goodman
that
> ignited the Swing Era. More of a cumulative effect. I also doubt that
> Stacy's choruses on Sing Sing had much to do with launching the Swing Era
as
> a national movement. A) The concert was not broadcast, so whatever effect
it
> had would have been limited to the people in the Hall that night; B) By
> January of 1938, Swing was well established anyway, and in fact Goodman
was
> just a couple of months away from losing Gene Krupa and having this
edition
> of the band gradually go stale. Artie Shaw was looming on the horizon,
> getting set to Begin the Beguine ......
>
>
I'm grateful you corrected my assumption about Teddy Wilson and Palomar.
That assumption grew out of conversation with an elderly musician who
worked the big band roads in the 1930's and who usually was accurate in his
memory. I should have checked his statement against an authoritative
resource before posting. Thanks to your note, I've now looked into this
and now realize that Teddy Wilson's limited big band experience was not with
Benny Goodman.
Regarding the impact of the two events on development of swing, I didn't
intend to suggest they were the only influential actions -- only that they
were key events. Perhaps I should have said the events "symbolically
coincided," thus marking milestones in swing history. BTW, a couple of
"old timers" I talked with, including my father (a swing drummer) contended
that "swing swang" in the late 1920 although for various reasons larger
commercial recognition went more to those who came later.
Thanks again, Brian.
Steve Bosarge
Brian Chipney <spit...@total.delete_this_to_reply.net> wrote in message
news:9NQl4.631$C56....@news.total.net...
> In article <TGPl4.1467$o4.136638@pm02news>, new-c...@mciworld.com
says...
> >
> >
> >Ulf wrote:
> >> It must have been from the Carnegie Hall Concert in January 1938, with
> >Bennt
> >> Goodman's Big Band and a lot of guests, among them not Duke Ellington
but
> >> some of his musicians.
> >>
> >> The piano player might have been Jess Stacy and the solo on Sing Sing
> >Sing.
> >>
> >> The complete concert is recently released by Columbia.
> >>
> >
> >Jess Stacy was the improvising soloist on Sing Sing Sing, and it is
> >interesting that Teddy Wilson was there, seated with the band or
backstage.
> >While Stacy got the glory that night at Carnegie Hall, Wilson was a
> >principal figure three years earlier on the occasion that led up to Stacy
> >putting icing on the cake. (As a swinging pianist, I think Jess Stacy
> >easily outclassed Wilson)
> >
> >No big fan of Benny Goodman, I believe that he earned a lion's share of
> >credit for the two key
> >events most crucial in launching Swing as a national musical movement.
> >Stacy's celebrated ad lib performance, at Goodman's unexpected signal,
was
> >the second event. The first was the nationwide broadcast of the Goodman
> >band's historic blowout before a wild crowd in Los Angeles' Palomar
> >Ballroom, August 21, 1935. Wilson was at the piano on that occasion.
> >
> >Steve Bosarge
>
> Not to be argumentative, but ........Teddy Wilson wasn't with Goodman when
> they played the Palomar for the first time in '35. Jess Stacy was the
band's
> pianist on their cross-country trip from New York to L.A. and back again
The
> Goodman Trio had recorded in July, but Wilson was not a member of the
> entourage at that point, and there are no Trio performances on air-checks
by
> Goodman from this period. Wilson flew in to Chicago to join Goodman for a
> concert at the Congress Hotel on Easter Sunday, 1936. This was the first
> time they had performed in public together before a paying audience. Not
> sure if Wilson joined Goodman on a permanent basis at this point
precisely,
> but he did that sometime between then and September 22, when the Trio's
> first preserved radio performance took place. Interestingly, the Quartet
> first recorded during this period, on August 21, 1936, though Hampton
> likewise did not join Goodman right away. He wasn't on hand till November.
> In any case, I suspect that it wasn't one specific broadcast by Goodman
that
> ignited the Swing Era. More of a cumulative effect. I also doubt that
Hal Vickery
<new-c...@mciworld.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Regarding the impact of the two events on development of swing, I didn't
> intend to suggest they were the only influential actions -- only that they
> were key events. Perhaps I should have said the events "symbolically
> coincided," thus marking milestones in swing history. BTW, a couple of
> "old timers" I talked with, including my father (a swing drummer) contended
> that "swing swang" in the late 1920 although for various reasons larger
> commercial recognition went more to those who came later.
A quick listen to bands like Fletcher Henderson's, McKinney's Cotton
Pickers (led by Don Redman), and even Jean Goldkette or the Casa Loma
Orchestra would confirm that, at least to some extent. By around 1929 or
1930, the style was pretty well developed.
nsmf
Steven
than you imply. As I understand it, Fletcher Henderson's arrangements
comprised a good deal of Goodman's book when his band was formed. "King
Porter Stomp", one of Goodman's first hits, was essentially the same
arrangement Henderson's band had used earlier. The discovery by white
kids of the "new" swing music was just a repackaging of what black bands
had been doing for 10 years or so. Eventually Goodman's band developed
it's own voice, but the early band really didn't do anything terribly
innovative.
---Steven
Hal Vickery <hvic...@svs.com> wrote in message
news:hvickery-ya0240800...@nntp.ce.mediaone.net...
> In article <9aZl4.1496$o4.143342@pm02news>, "Steve Bosarge"
> <new-c...@mciworld.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Regarding the impact of the two events on development of swing, I
didn't
> > intend to suggest they were the only influential actions -- only
that they
> > were key events. Perhaps I should have said the events
"symbolically
> > coincided," thus marking milestones in swing history. BTW, a
couple of
> > "old timers" I talked with, including my father (a swing drummer)
contended
> > that "swing swang" in the late 1920 although for various reasons
larger
> > commercial recognition went more to those who came later.
>
Hal Vickery
<steve...@xx--xx.com> wrote:
> The connection between Goodman 1935 and the 1920's is much more direct
> than you imply. As I understand it, Fletcher Henderson's arrangements
> comprised a good deal of Goodman's book when his band was formed. "King
> Porter Stomp", one of Goodman's first hits, was essentially the same
> arrangement Henderson's band had used earlier. The discovery by white
> kids of the "new" swing music was just a repackaging of what black bands
> had been doing for 10 years or so. Eventually Goodman's band developed
> it's own voice, but the early band really didn't do anything terribly
> innovative.
I don't see anything in either post below that implies that. The first
post by Steve mentions how swing was pretty well developed by the late
'20s. My post confirms that a style that could be recognized as being the
same as that of '30s swing had, to my ears at least, been played by bands,
both black and white, by 1929-30. Goldkette was playing in a relaxed,
swinging style on "Clementine (from New Orleans)" as early as 1927.
Henderson's seemed to play more in a "stomping" vein at the same period,
but a lot of the horn arranging was taking shape.
Probably one of the key developments, imho, in the development of the style
came when banjo players began switching to guitars (led in big bands by
Eddie Lang, who played with Goldkette and other bands), and a massive
switch from tuba to string bass.
Since we only have phonograph records to rely on, I've always wondered how
prevalent the tuba was in live performance. It's hard to play four beats
per measure at a dance tempo on tuba, so recorded performances still have
that two beat OOMP-chink-OOMP-chink sound left over from ragtime than the
straight four-beat sound of swing. I've never seen anything written,
though, that bass players (with exceptions such as Wellman Braud with
Ellington, Pops Foster with Luis Russel, and Steve Brown with Goldkette and
then Whiteman) played anything other than tuba, at least most of the time.
The big switch to string bass occurred within 5 years or so of the advent
of electrical recording, and that's when we hear the characteristic sound
of swing rhythm sections.
At any rate, all of this predated Goodman by several years.
Now on to a brief comment on "King Porter Stomp." The "arrangement" of
that tune played by the Henderson band was a head arrangement. What
Henderson wrote down for the Goodman band sounds pretty similar the version
that had evolved at the time of the Henderson band's last recordings of the
tune. Similarly, "Sing, Sing, Sing," the tune that started this thread,
was also a head arrangement that had evolved over time.
> Hal Vickery <hvic...@svs.com> wrote in message
> news:hvickery-ya0240800...@nntp.ce.mediaone.net...
> > In article <9aZl4.1496$o4.143342@pm02news>, "Steve Bosarge"
> > <new-c...@mciworld.com> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > Regarding the impact of the two events on development of swing, I
> didn't
> > > intend to suggest they were the only influential actions -- only
> that they
> > > were key events. Perhaps I should have said the events
> "symbolically
> > > coincided," thus marking milestones in swing history. BTW, a
> couple of
> > > "old timers" I talked with, including my father (a swing drummer)
> contended
> > > that "swing swang" in the late 1920 although for various reasons
> larger
> > > commercial recognition went more to those who came later.
> >
Bruce LeClaire
Jack Woker wrote:
>
>
> Count Basie was among the guests who performed that night - Duke was
> not, although several of his sidemen were.
>
> jack
Damn, this newsgroup is work! But in the name of ferocious accuracy...
NPR still has posted the show on its site. But with increasing
confidence I will state that it includes an interview from an attendee
at the event stating that Lacey may have been intimidated by the
presence of three other great pianists at the show, two of which were
Duke and Basie (who had 2nd billing at the show). The other pianist was
Teddy (mmmmphhff) Wilson/Edwards. The original poster of this thread and
myself both heard this.
Now doing some research, as is my nature, I found the following...
Duke Ellinton - A Spiritual Biography
Janna Tull Steed
Cross Road 1999
p 75
"Count Basie also appeared. But Ellington declined to participate. He
allowed some of his muscians to play in bands on stage; but he sat in
the audience -- knowing his dream of premiering a major extended work
was long overdue."
And also,
Beyond Category - The Life and Genius of Duke Ellington
John Edward Hasse
DaCapo 1995 (1993)
p211
"Jan. 16, 1938 event featured Goodman's orchestra, with Count Basie's
also on the bill. Whether it was for publicity or to keep several of his
stars happy, Ellington allowed Cootie Williams, Harry Carney, and Johnny
Hodges to perform as part of Goodman's quartet's jam session. Ellington
reportedly had been invited to participate, but declined. It was
Goodman's concert, and Ellington probably did not want to get second
billing, or lumped together with groups that operated on an aesthetic
level different that his [own]".
So it is clear that... Ellington biographers love subtitles!
As concerns Stacy's solo, apparently it was unscheduled, so Goodman put
Stacy "on the spot". Now I heard a solo that started out fine (thematic
restatement?) in the beginning, but sounded very tentative for several
measures during the middle, probably where Stacy was unsure whether
Goodman was allowing him to continue or not.
Re: Fletcher Henderson/Trained Chemist - wrote over 200 arrangements for
BG's band. And even played piano for abit when Stacy left "in disgust" w
BG for something or another. He disbanded his big band right when swing
was gained commercial success. Rumored to have begun arranging on a bet
("Hey I bet you can't arrange your way out of a paper bag!" "Oh
yeah!"...)
Re: BG - acerbic to the end, supposedly call Wynton Marselis an
"undernourished" trumpet player in an interview. Undoubtly a brillant
player, he popularized FH's arrangements, and bought Charlie Christian
to wider attention. And for this alone the music world is forever
indebted to him.
--Bruce (the long-winded pedantic)
John Grabowski
Steven wrote:
>
> The piece was "Sing, Sing, Sing" from the very famous 1938 Carnegie Hall
> "Spirituals to Swing" concert
It was not the "Spirituals to Swing" concert. Spirituals to Swing had
nothing to do with this concert.
> the pianist was Jess Stacey. The concert
> was put together by legendary Columbia A&R man John Hammond
He was not an A&R man for Columbia at the time, nor did the concert have
anything to do with Columbia.
> partly to
> promote his artists, partly to give jazz and African-American music the
> more serious critical attention it deserved, partly to present black and
> white artists together in a spirit of equality. He certainly succeeded
> beyond any of his possible expectations.
Amazing how he did that, being he had nothing to do with the concert at
all and often called it the only major event in Benny's career he had no
part in.
The concert was conceived by a producer on Goodman's Camel Caravan
agency, and promoted by impresario Sol Hurok. It was mostly done to
keep the public of the time interested in swing. By early 1938 some
people felt swing was already getting old, and was a fad that would soon
pass. The concert, great though it was, was in part a massive publicity
stunt.
> The concert can rightly be
> considered a turning point in 20th century music, even if more for
> socio-cultural reasons than purely musical ones.
Mmmmmm...that's debatable. It was the earliest such effort, but it was
so early it actually had little effect on the music scene for many
years, and frankly wasn't even that famous or highly-regarded until
Columbia issued the LPs twelve years later. Goodman himself never
thought the concert was that special, and later on even said the only
reason it became so special was because "of that damned record." --You
know, the one whose originals he kept in his living room closet for
years.
John
--
Just remember that even though you have a loud voice, even though your
voice may reach 16 million people every time you speak, that doesn't
make you any smarter than you were when your voice only reached to the
end of this bar.
Edward R. Murrow (advice to other reporters)
Spammers: I don't need Viagra, a work-at-home business or a ground-floor
investment opportunity, thank you.
John Grabowski
> > "Count Basie also appeared. But Ellington declined to participate. He
> > allowed some of his muscians to play in bands on stage; but he sat in
> > the audience -- knowing his dream of premiering a major extended work
> > was long overdue."
>
> Hmmm...I don't have them handy, but that passage almost seems to be
> plagiarized from Irving Kolodin's liner notes to the original Columbia
> release of the concert.
That degree of closeness is quite common in just about all non-fiction
these days. You'd have to get a lot closer than that, and then
demonstrate financial loss, to get "plagiarized" across to a jury.
John Grabowski
>
> Ulf wrote:
> > It must have been from the Carnegie Hall Concert in January 1938, with
> Bennt
> > Goodman's Big Band and a lot of guests, among them not Duke Ellington but
> > some of his musicians.
> >
> > The piano player might have been Jess Stacy and the solo on Sing Sing
> Sing.
> >
> > The complete concert is recently released by Columbia.
> >
>
> Jess Stacy was the improvising soloist on Sing Sing Sing, and it is
> interesting that Teddy Wilson was there, seated with the band or backstage.
> While Stacy got the glory that night at Carnegie Hall, Wilson was a
> principal figure three years earlier on the occasion that led up to Stacy
> putting icing on the cake. (As a swinging pianist, I think Jess Stacy
> easily outclassed Wilson)
>
> No big fan of Benny Goodman, I believe that he earned a lion's share of
> credit for the two key
> events most crucial in launching Swing as a national musical movement.
> Stacy's celebrated ad lib performance, at Goodman's unexpected signal, was
> the second event. The first was the nationwide broadcast of the Goodman
> band's historic blowout before a wild crowd in Los Angeles' Palomar
> Ballroom, August 21, 1935. Wilson was at the piano on that occasion.
No he wasn't. He hadn't even made his first recordings with the band,
and he did that before playing with BG in public. They had only met a
short time earlier at Mildred Bailey's. I have BG broadcast recordings
from later in 1935 than this (with far far worse sound than Carnegie,
btw, but still listenable to me), and there was yet no BG trio, and
Stacey was on piano in all the numbers.
John Grabowski
> No big fan of Benny Goodman, I believe that he earned a lion's share of
> credit for the two key
> events most crucial in launching Swing as a national musical movement.
> Stacy's celebrated ad lib performance, at Goodman's unexpected signal, was
> the second event.
This had no effect on swing to the average listener. They didn't even
know who JS was, and much preferred the routines of Krupa or James or
Elman to the quiet, cerebral Stacey.
> The first was the nationwide broadcast of the Goodman
> band's historic blowout before a wild crowd in Los Angeles' Palomar
> Ballroom, August 21, 1935. Wilson was at the piano on that occasion.
What? What about the integration of black and white musicians? Or the
use of top flight arrangers instead of stock arrangements? Or the
superb ensemble work--just listen to dance bands before BG and compare.
Or how his introducing the odernist Charlie Christian and his newfangled
instrument, the electric guitar? Or how about his touring the Far East
and Russia at the height of the cold war?
Or how about, branching out a bit, his commissioning of many original
and vital original classical works, from Copeland, Bernstein, Bartok
(but NOT Stravinsky...contrary to myth that keeps getting dredged up and
even appears in some liner notes, Stravinsky's Ebony Concerto was NOT
written for Goodman, but for Woody Herman).
I'd call Palomar and Sing Sing Sing insignificant, on the whole, except
as personal beacons to Goodman's career.
John Grabowski
> I don't think Wilson ever played piano with the full band. His role was
> limited afaik to the trio and quartet sessions.
>
> nsmf
Actually, he did in the soundtrack to The Benny Goodman story, and when
the subsequent group went on the road in the 50s in the wake of interest
from the film.
They'd wanted Stacey in the film to recreate his Carnegie Hall moment,
but they were offering only scale, and he refused.
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Where have you been? We settled these matters about Carnegie Hall a long
time ago!
You must be going through old mails. Jump forward to today!
Ulf in Svedala
John Grabowski skrev ...
> Steve Bosarge wrote:
> > Ulf wrote:
> > > It must have been from the Carnegie Hall Concert in January 1938, with
> > Benny
> > > Goodman's Big Band .......
> > No big fan of Benny Goodman, I believe that he earned a lion's share of
> > credit for the two key
> > events most crucial in launching Swing as a national musical movement.