Massey Hall mystery
Yardbird O'Rooney
Fact: On May 15, 1953, a remarkable (what an unremarkable
adjective -- but it will have to do) jazz concert took place
in Toronto. A tape recorder was also present.
A recording was issued as "The Quintet: Jazz at Massey Hall",
Debut Records/Fantasy OJCCD-044-2 (DEB-124), reissued
Debut 2002.
It has been claimed that Charles Mingus (who co-founded
Debut Records with Max Roach) over-dubbed the bass part. I,
as a devoted, but otherwise unqualified, listener, have no trouble
believing that the bass part -- wonderfully vital, imaginative,
and on top of the beat -- is a redub by Mingus.
It has also been claimed that the piano part on "All the Things"--
originally played, of course, by Bud Powell -- was overdubbed by,
ahem, Dr. Billy Taylor.
I find it impossible to convince myself that the piano player
I am hearing on "All the Things" (a) is not Bud Powell, and (b)
is Billy Taylor. This opinion (for that's all it is) is based on a
lifetime of studying Bud Powell and a passing acquaintance
with Professor Taylor's mannerisms.
Can anyone point me to any convincing histoircal sources
(other than those of the "he said, she said variety") that will
help me understand what is going on here?
lowg...@ao1.com
>...It has been claimed that Charles Mingus (who co-founded
>Debut Records with Max Roach) over-dubbed the bass part.
>...>It has also been claimed that the piano part on "All the Things"--
>...was overdubbed by Taylor.
Part one is not a claim. I believe Mingus was clear about this. IMO, he did
a great job.
I never heard a claim that Taylor did any odubbing. Wasn't he Mingus'
partner in Fantasy?
This show is also available without the odub although a couple of intros
are repeated segments.
Phil Wilson
"Yardbird O'Rooney" <M...@Vootie.com> wrote in message
news:vrrkt0difs5277u7r...@4ax.com...
>
> Fact: On May 15, 1953, a remarkable (what an unremarkable
> adjective -- but it will have to do) jazz concert took place
> in Toronto. A tape recorder was also present.
>
> A recording was issued as "The Quintet: Jazz at Massey Hall",
> Debut Records/Fantasy OJCCD-044-2 (DEB-124), reissued
> Debut 2002.
>
> It has been claimed that Charles Mingus (who co-founded
> Debut Records with Max Roach) over-dubbed the bass part. I,
> as a devoted, but otherwise unqualified, listener, have no trouble
> believing that the bass part -- wonderfully vital, imaginative,
> and on top of the beat -- is a redub by Mingus.
This was, according to Mark Miller in his 'Cool Blues - Charlie Parker
in Canada 1953' (Nightwood Editions 1989), confirmed by Mingus to Ted
O'Reilly, a Toronto broadcaster on CJRT-FM radio. in an interview of
May 17th, 1975. Mingus said he used a different bass for the overdub.
Not all the performances have overdubbing, 'Salt Peanuts' coming
through all issues with the original bass line, again according to
Miller. I believe a boxed set of the complete Debut recordings was
issued a while ago with two versions of the concert, one with
overdubs, and the other dub-free.
> It has also been claimed that the piano part on "All the Things"--
> originally played, of course, by Bud Powell -- was overdubbed by,
> ahem, Dr. Billy Taylor.
>
> I find it impossible to convince myself that the piano player
> I am hearing on "All the Things" (a) is not Bud Powell, and (b)
> is Billy Taylor. This opinion (for that's all it is) is based on a
> lifetime of studying Bud Powell and a passing acquaintance
> with Professor Taylor's mannerisms.
>
> Can anyone point me to any convincing histoircal sources
> (other than those of the "he said, she said variety") that will
> help me understand what is going on here?
The confusion may arise from the fact that one track from the Powell,
Mingus, Roach trio performance from the concert 'Bass-ically Speaking'
was substituted with a studio performance of the same number by Billy
Taylor on a certain Debut issue (DLP3).
All this info from the above Miller book, which is recommended as a
filler for the background to this date.
Cheers,
Phil
nine...@grandecom.net
with him and his trio to the airport. There were about 6 of us in the car,
as I remember. So Billy Taylor claims he's the man.
"Yardbird O'Rooney" <M...@Vootie.com> wrote in message
news:vrrkt0difs5277u7r...@4ax.com...
>
Yardbird O'Rooney
>Yardbird O'Rooney <M...@Vootie.com> wrote:
>
>>...It has been claimed that Charles Mingus (who co-founded
>>Debut Records with Max Roach) over-dubbed the bass part.
>
>>...>It has also been claimed that the piano part on "All the Things"--
>>...was overdubbed by Taylor.
>
>Part one is not a claim. I believe Mingus was clear about this. IMO, he did
>a great job.
Well, it *is* a claim, and apparently a true one. There is no
mention of any overdubbing on the original release, so I don't
know in what sense you mean he was "clear" about it.
According to knowledgable sources, either he felt that he'd
messed upon the date or that his own recording was badly
balanced and needed to have a new bass part.
>I never heard a claim that Taylor did any odubbing. Wasn't he Mingus'
>partner in Fantasy?
Fantasy was owned by Mingus and Roach. Taylor seems to
have been involved as a consultant and co-conspirator.
I'll provide some background.
I found the following information while reading some archived
1996 posts to the Jazz Lovers' List [JAZ...@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU].
These posts are online at
http://www.geocities.com/ladenso1/BirdKLON.html.
One in particular, titled "Week 14 Report (Part 1)", reads:
"For years there's been grousing about whether Mingus redubbed 'All
the Things You Are' with Billy Taylor on piano. In the January
installment of Billy's current _Cadence_ interview, he says yes, he
did."
That would be the January 1996 issue of Cadence. There is further
discussion of this point in the archived post titled "Week 14 Report
(Part 1a)", where we read the following words of Billy Taylor quoted
from the Cadence article (I'm editing heavily to get to the relevant
points; ellipses indicate my omissions):
I could play like Bud... First of all Mingus swore me to
secrecy... The reason he asked me to do it was that Mingus
heard me play Bud Powell's style in those days. Bud was not
only a friend, he was someone whom I admired and there were
certain aspects of his playing that I could do very easily. It
was in my ear and in my mind...The only reason I did this was
because Mingus came to me. I guess he and Max Roach owned
that Debut record label together. Mingus said to me, 'Look,
I'm not happy. These thing sound terrible but I want to put
that record out. I've got to fix it up."
Not having the January 1996 issue of Cadence, I can't really
tell whether these comments of Taylor's actually relate to "All The
Things" or only to a version of "Basically" that was released at the
same time.
Clearly the question about "All the Things" is something that has been
floating around for a long time, and I was hoping someone here might
know whether the issue has ever been resolved with any certainty.
YO
Yardbird O'Rooney
<philip...@talk21.com> wrote:
>
>"Yardbird O'Rooney" <M...@Vootie.com> wrote in message
>news:vrrkt0difs5277u7r...@4ax.com...
>> It has been claimed that Charles Mingus (who co-founded
>> Debut Records with Max Roach) over-dubbed the bass part. I,
>> as a devoted, but otherwise unqualified, listener, have no trouble
>> believing that the bass part -- wonderfully vital, imaginative,
>> and on top of the beat -- is a redub by Mingus.
>This was, according to Mark Miller in his 'Cool Blues - Charlie Parker
>in Canada 1953' (Nightwood Editions 1989), confirmed by Mingus to Ted
>O'Reilly, a Toronto broadcaster on CJRT-FM radio. in an interview of
>May 17th, 1975. Mingus said he used a different bass for the overdub.
>Not all the performances have overdubbing, 'Salt Peanuts' coming
>through all issues with the original bass line, again according to
>Miller. I believe a boxed set of the complete Debut recordings was
>issued a while ago with two versions of the concert, one with
>overdubs, and the other dub-free.
Thanks for the recommendation.
I'd like to know from anyone who has the Debut boxed set
whether the piano part on "All the Things" is the same or
not.
On the overdubbed version of "Hot House" you can actually
hear the original bass part coming through the overdub.
BTW, in my last post a moment ago I wrote that "Fantasy" was
owned by Mingus and Roach; it was not. I meant "Debut".
Fantasy reissued the Debut release.
--
YO
Yardbird O'Rooney
>issued a while ago with two versions of the concert, one with
>overdubs, and the other dub-free.
Following the clue from Phil I was able to locate the
two tracks of "All the Things" (dubbed and not dubbed)
from The Complete Debut Recordings. The piano part
is the same.
How the rumor got started about this being Billy Taylor,
I couldn't say, but it sounds like Bud to me even though
the four-to-the-bar legato comping is atypical. One could
make plausible suggestions:
1) Bud didn't think Mingus was supportive enough
2) Bud was playing mind games with the Diz and Bird
3) Bud just heard something in his head that he wanted to try
etc.
Speculations like this are amusing but idle; we'll never
know for sure.
--
YO
Yardbird O'Rooney
>Billy Taylor told me that he was the pianist on this cut when I was riding
>with him and his trio to the airport. There were about 6 of us in the car,
>as I remember. So Billy Taylor claims he's the man.
No doubt he does. I suspect what actually happened was
that Taylor made a dub tape but it was never used. This
seems to have happened in at least one other case. Here's
Billy talking from the interview cited upthread:
Ira Gitler played [for me] a version that seemed to have
been taken from the original tapes, that sounded like
Bud to me. Now, I did do it! I did record it! I could play
like Bud but the tape that I heard at Ira Gitler's house was
Bud. I don't know what happened to the tape that I did.
If the Debut release of "Things" used a piano overdub, why just
on one number? And why can't I hear the original Bud Powel part
coming through the overdub, as is the case with the Mingus
overdub? And why do the two versions released in the complete
Debut box set as non-dubbed and overdubbed, respectively,
have the same piano part?
I'm afraid there are just too many questions unanswered
for me to accept that claim on face value -- leaving out
altogether what for me is the crucial evidence: It does
not sound like Taylor, but it does sound like Powel.
(I'll accept as true the part about there being six of
you in the car.) (o;
--
YO
Yardbird O'Rooney
wrote:
>How the rumor got started about this being Billy Taylor,
>I couldn't say, but it sounds like Bud to me even though
>the four-to-the-bar legato comping is atypical.
Which raises yet another obstacle to accepting
the Billy Taylor version of history.
If Billy wanted to sound like Bud (and he himself
said that is why Mingus wanted to use him in the
first place), why did he pick such a strange way
of comping behind the horns? It calls attention
to itself, and that is the opposite of what Mingus
needed (if you accept the claim).
But as striking as the comping is, I still hear familiar
Budlike voicings and fingerings in all of it.
By the way, the undubbed version is worth hearing.
Yes, the bass is under-recorded, but everything else
is much clearer than in the dubbed version. I have to
wonder whether Mingus used an acoustic method
of dubbing; that is, playing the original tape in the
studio and re-recording it while picking up the new
bass track at the same time, with the expected loss
of clarity that such a method would produce.
--
YO
j_ns...@msn.com
withhold a version with Bud he had from the public, which I don't, then
if Gitler has access to a version that Billy acknowledges "was Bud," it
follows that the guy on the releases is Bud, in Billy's opinion. (And I
think it's reasonable to accept that Mingus also had Billy do an
overdub of it but decided not to use that tape, unless anyone has
evidence that Billy is a teller of tall tales. A friend of mine who's
no fool chatted with Billy at length on the phone and thinks he's a
wonderful sober-headed guy.).
Joseph Scott
Aron Edidin
Yours,
Aron
Fabien Caron
chapter six Jazz at Massey Hall, pp. 149-150 :
''In the autumn of 1953 the Debut record company began releasing its Massey
Hall treasures. First to appear was a 10-inch LP containing 'Perdido', 'Salt
Peanuts' and 'AlI the Things You Are'. According to the sleeve, the
saxophone player was Charlie Chan. This transparent disguise (a play on
Parker' wife's name and that of the B-movie character) could have fooled no
one -- least of all Norman Granz, whose exclusive contract with Parker was
being circumvented. But Granz elected to turn a blind eye.
''Jazz at Massey Hall, Volume 2, another 10-inch LP, contained the set
played by the Bud Powell Trio, with one omission and one addition. Missing
was 'I've Got You Under My Skin'. ln its place we find 'Bass-ically
Speaking', a long, healthily recorded bass solo by Mingus with a pallid
accompaniment.
''Although no such admission comes with the record, 'Bass-ically Speaking'
(a D minor sequence similar to 'Weird Nightmare') was recorded in a studio
in New York. The pianist was not Bud Powell but Billy Taylor, and applause
was added to create a make-believe Massey Hall. Once news of this subterfuge
leaked out, rumours started. One of these claimed (imaginatively but
mistakenly) that the Quintet's performance of 'All the Things You Are' was
another New York studio confection, and blamed Billy Taylor for the
eccentric piano accompaniment.
''The missing 'I've Got You Under My Skin' turned up on a Debut compilation
LP called Autobiography in Jazz, where it was joined by Max Roach's Massey
Hall drum solo.
''Jazz at Massey Hall, Volume 3 (again a 10-inch LP) was released early in
1954. It contained the remaining items performed by the Quintet: 'Wee' (or
'Big Noise'), 'Hot House' and 'A Night in Tunisia'. Here again we are not
given a straightforward-concert record, although the interference is less
drastic than the 'Bass-ically Speaking' substitution. What we have is an
early example of the technique of overdubbing. Still vexed by the feeble
reproduction of his playing at Massey Hall, Mingus added a second bass line
to all three tracks. The only passage he allowed to stand unassisted was his
solo on 'Hot House'.
''He must have been pleased with the results, because by the time the
contents of Volume 1 were reissued, they had been likewise bass-reinforced.
''And this time, on 'AlI the Things You Are' he went a step further. He
added a new solo to the one he had played at the concert, thereby creating
an eerie duet between his booming New York present and bis faint, almost
vanished Canadian past.
''This reissue (which came out in June 1956) brought all the Quintet
material together on one 12-inch LP. When Celia Mingus was preparing the
packaging, she wrote to Norman Granz begging permission to drop the pretence
and use Charlie Parker's real name. The reply came from Granz's lawyers: an
absolute no. So the flimsy fiction of an alto saxophonist called Charlie
Chan had to be maintained.
''The complete set of Mingus overdubs has been the source of the worldwide
stream of re-issues (including Quintet of the Year in the UK, which was
where I came in).
''The Bud Powell Trio recordings have been repackaged several times. For one
edition 'Bass-ically Speaking' was dropped and 'I've Got You Under My Skin'
was restored. For another the Trio tracks were bundled together with the
Quintet material under the defensible heading The Greatest Jazz Concert
Ever.
''In 1990 Fantasy Records (who had long since taken over the Debut
catalogue) produced Charles Mingus: the Complete Debut Recordings. Research
for this exhaustive 12-CD box set uncovered material that had lain in the
vault for the best part of forty years. Most interestingly for us, they
found the original, undoctored Massey Hall recordings and included them
alongside the versions revised by Mingus. We can hear that during the
copying process, when the second bass part was added, the sound quality of
the other instruments was.somewhat diminished. We are also offered, patched
together from tape bits and pieces, the first twenty-four bars of 'Perdido',
hitherto presumed lost.''
Hubert
<j_ns...@msn.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
1104907652....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
j_ns...@msn.com
for how Bud played. (Remember folks, if it's a characteristic Bud
intro, it might be Dizzy or Argonne Thornton. :-) )
Massey Hall is good, but I think Diz and Bird had more interesting
meetings, such as 9/47 on WOR with Tristano.
Joseph Scott
Helge Gundersen
The interviewer, Paul Matthews, says: "On some of the original editions
of that release on Mingus' Debut label, there is one track with "52nd
St. Theme" where you, Mingus and Art Taylor are listed as the players.
Were you in fact also at that Massey hall concert?
B.T.: No, I was not. I did re-record "All The things You Are" and I may
or may not have re-recorded "52nd St. Theme." I don't remember. I did
that at the same time I did "Bass-ically Speaking."
CAD: That's another Mingus release that has caused some confusion over
the years. Some issues credited to Bud Powell. Others to you.
B.T.: That was an experiment that Mingus was trying that may or may not
have worked. Ira Gitler played a version that seemed to have been taken
from the original tapes, that sounded like Bud to me. Now, I did do it!
I could play like Bud..."
It seems that "a version ... that sounded like Bud" refers to
"Bass-ically Speaking".
-- Helge
In article <b58mt0lhb4kmm808v...@4ax.com>,
Phil Wilson
<j_ns...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1104943475....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
The Sept '47 Carnegie Hall concert is a blisterer as well. I think
that most of the recordings of Bird and Diz are charged with a kind of
excitement. Diz's adventurous style I think brought out the
split-second thinking which CP was capable of. There's that tremendous
version of 'Sweet Georgia Brown' from 1945 which is unbelievably
inventive.
Reading this thread sent me back to the Massey Hall concert. The only
drawback I find is the rather weedy sound of the plastic sax, but
overall I think it's a great listen. I've always found the overdubbed
bass rather intrusive and out of character, and would dearly love to
see the undubbed version issued separately. 'Hot House' is a great
version of one of my favourite bop lines, Powell's solo being
masterly.
Cheers,
Phil
el...@presley.com
Yardbird O'Rooney
>I think you've solved it alright. Unless one thinks Gitler would
>withhold a version with Bud he had from the public, which I don't, then
>if Gitler has access to a version that Billy acknowledges "was Bud," it
>follows that the guy on the releases is Bud, in Billy's opinion.
Except that it isn't clear whether what Taylor refers to in the
quoted extract is "All the Things" or something else. Possibly
the complete text from the Jan 1996 Cadence would make it
clear. (Any archivists out there?)
--
YO
Yardbird O'Rooney
wrote:
>Is the undubbed version available, other than in the complete Debut set?
>
Not that I'm aware of, but I have not researched it.
--
YO
Yardbird O'Rooney
<removethis-...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>For a more detailed account, see Geoffrey Hayden, Quintet of the Year,
>chapter six Jazz at Massey Hall, pp. 149-150 :
Wow. Thanks very much for taking the trouble to post that. It
pretty much nails the whole things shut, as far as I can see.
>''Although no such admission comes with the record, 'Bass-ically Speaking'
>(a D minor sequence similar to 'Weird Nightmare') was recorded in a studio
>in New York. The pianist was not Bud Powell but Billy Taylor, and applause
>was added to create a make-believe Massey Hall. Once news of this subterfuge
>leaked out, rumours started. One of these claimed (imaginatively but
>mistakenly) that the Quintet's performance of 'All the Things You Are' was
>another New York studio confection, and blamed Billy Taylor for the
>eccentric piano accompaniment.
I guess that's where the rumor started, but I find it incredibly
far-fetched because that doctored-up Billy Taylor track was (to me)
obviously not Powell, even though we were supposed to think it
was. If that is an example of Taylor trying to play "like Bud" (and
in fairness, it may not be), I can't see how he could have fooled
anyone.
--
YO
Yardbird O'Rooney
<helge.g...@chello.no> wrote:
>Here's the context for the Cadence quotes in this thread.
>
>The interviewer, Paul Matthews, says: "On some of the original editions
>of that release on Mingus' Debut label, there is one track with "52nd
>St. Theme" where you, Mingus and Art Taylor are listed as the players.
>Were you in fact also at that Massey hall concert?
>B.T.: No, I was not. I did re-record "All The things You Are" and I may
>or may not have re-recorded "52nd St. Theme." I don't remember. I did
>that at the same time I did "Bass-ically Speaking."
>CAD: That's another Mingus release that has caused some confusion over
>the years. Some issues credited to Bud Powell. Others to you.
>B.T.: That was an experiment that Mingus was trying that may or may not
>have worked. Ira Gitler played a version that seemed to have been taken
>from the original tapes, that sounded like Bud to me. Now, I did do it!
>I could play like Bud..."
>
>It seems that "a version ... that sounded like Bud" refers to
>"Bass-ically Speaking".
Oops, I should have read this before
asking for help from the archivists.
Thanks very much for that. Note that BIlly
says he re-recorded "All The Things" but
does not say that the released version used
his re-recording.
It does seem odd to me that he would not
be quite certain about what was released.
--
YO
j_ns...@msn.com
It seems to me that prolific musicians often don't keep up with exactly
what makes it to release and what doesn't, except when they're the
leader.
Best,
Joseph Scott
Yardbird O'Rooney
>Hi Yardbird,
>
>It seems to me that prolific musicians often don't keep up with exactly
>what makes it to release and what doesn't, except when they're the
>leader.
I'm sure you're right about that -- but this * is * a Bird and Diz
record we're talking about. It's hard for me to imagine anyone
in jazz being blase about that to the extent of not knowing,
twenty-odd years after the fact, whether his playing was on
the release or not.
--
YO