Contemporary 'Bebop' pianists
Andy Evans
Walton, another favourite 'bebop' pianist. By this I mean those long bebop
lines that really go through the changes - real post-Parker and before the
stylistic changes of Herbie Hancock, Bill Evans, Kieth Jarrett etc that
influenced so many of the later pianists. Can you think of some other pianists
like Cedar Walton who really play through the changes - Bolivia, that kind of
stuff? I still get a lot of joy out of the purity and invention of true bebop
lines played by the masters of changes.
=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.
nine...@grandecom.net
Toshiko Akioshi (sp?) is good at it also.
Ron Hearn
> Barry Harris comes immediately to mind.
> Toshiko Akioshi (sp?) is good at it also.
Duke Jordan. Also interestingly, Jarrett is playing more bebop in
recent years, not that he is a bebop player per se.
ron
stevebop
Kwami Fabu
McCoy Tyner's "Land of the Giants" with Bobby Hutcherson from last year
is among the best things he's recorded in years.
Randy Weston occasionally returns to his boppish roots...
Hard to believe, but Horace Silver is still around and kickin' at age
75. His "Hardbop Grandpop" with M. Brecker, R. Carter and R. Cuber
is suprisingly energetic.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
KFabu
"No matter where you go, there you are."
Norm Gagne
tomw
aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker says...
Try punching these names in the AMG search engine http://allmusic.com/
and see who else they come up with.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
Nick
Oscar Peterson is one of my favorites -- considered by many the
greatest living jazz pianist.
I think Hank Jones is still around. There's a young pianist named
David Hazeltine who's pretty straight-ahead; he plays w/ a group
called One for All and also has solo albums.
Red Garland is gone now, but he fits in the slot you mentioned.
Andy Evans
greatest living jazz pianist.>
this isn't exactly what I meant - Oscar plays relatively simple changes,
usually standards, even though his right hand is very active. He harks back to
swing quite a lot. I was specifically thinking of pianists that a) use more
micro-changes or semitone/odd shifts etc as in tunes like Giant Steps, Bolivia,
Moments Notice etc and b) play through these changes exactly in the right hand,
rather than glossing over them or riding them
Marc Sabatella
changes,
> usually standards, even though his right hand is very active. He harks
back to
> swing quite a lot. I was specifically thinking of pianists that a) use
more
> micro-changes or semitone/odd shifts etc as in tunes like Giant Steps,
Bolivia,
> Moments Notice etc and b) play through these changes exactly in the
right hand,
> rather than glossing over them or riding them
FWIW, part of the problem is that this isn't really bebop per se - it's
post bop or hard bop, if you have to put a name to it. Bebop normally
doesn't have changes anywhere near as complex as the tunes you mention,
and indeed, the types of tunes Oscar plays are no less complex than the
typical bebop tune. Oscar, of course, isn't exactly a bebop player
either, as some of his style relates to an earlier time, but there are
more modern aspects to what he does as well. Still, I agree he isn't
what you are looking for.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Andy Evans
bop or hard bop, if you have to put a name to it. Bebop normally doesn't have
changes anywhere near as complex as the tunes you mention,>
you may well be right here - just dredging my memory for bebop changes, and
yes, it's the melodies that are florid and complex rather than the changes. OK,
so I should be calling tunes like Bolivia, Giant Steps, Moment's Notice "Post
Bop" or "Hard Bop". Mmm - I associate Hard Bop with a driving beat, like Art
Blakey, Cannonball, Horace Silver - is this the significance of "hard" in this
context? Agreed, the three tunes mentioned above have a fairly hard beat, but
there's also stuff like Nica's Dream and Pensativa. And when does "post bop"
stop? In a way everything after bop is post bop. Any experts on names here?
Nick
> > this isn't exactly what I meant - Oscar plays relatively simple
> changes,
> > usually standards, even though his right hand is very active. He harks
> back to
> > swing quite a lot. I was specifically thinking of pianists that a) use
> more
> > micro-changes or semitone/odd shifts etc as in tunes like Giant Steps,
> Bolivia,
> > Moments Notice etc and b) play through these changes exactly in the
> right hand,
> > rather than glossing over them or riding them
>
> FWIW, part of the problem is that this isn't really bebop per se - it's
> post bop or hard bop, if you have to put a name to it. Bebop normally
> doesn't have changes anywhere near as complex as the tunes you mention,
> and indeed, the types of tunes Oscar plays are no less complex than the
> typical bebop tune. Oscar, of course, isn't exactly a bebop player
> either, as some of his style relates to an earlier time, but there are
> more modern aspects to what he does as well. Still, I agree he isn't
> what you are looking for.
I agree with Mark's comments.
If you are looking for post-Moment's Notice but pre-Bill Evans and
Herbie, you are defining a very narrow, almost non-existent niche.
I would say you need to find bebop pianists who adopted a bit of
post-Coltrane complexity -- Tommy Flanagan, who played on "Giant
Steps," might be one. Hank Jones, possibly. Or, try the early efforts
of post-bop players like Herbie or McCoy Tyner, before they really got
into the mid/late sixties avant garde stuff.
Andy Evans
complexity -- Tommy Flanagan, who played on "GiantSteps," might be one. >
The whole problem with Flanagan was that he COULDN'T really play through the
changes on Giant Steps - the only big let-down with that great album. McCoy
could, of course, and guys like Cedar Walton, and as has been said Kieth
Jarrett when he plays that kind of style.
Jack Lefton
>
> The whole problem with Flanagan was that he COULDN'T really play through
the
> changes on Giant Steps - the only big let-down with that great album.
McCoy
> could, of course, and guys like Cedar Walton, and as has been said Kieth
> Jarrett when he plays that kind of style.
>
it with no rehearsal a short time after being taught the changes, at a speed
much faster than he expected.
Marc Sabatella
> OK,
> so I should be calling tunes like Bolivia, Giant Steps, Moment's
Notice "Post
> Bop" or "Hard Bop". Mmm - I associate Hard Bop with a driving beat,
like Art
> Blakey, Cannonball, Horace Silver - is this the significance of "hard"
in this
> context?
I think the name was intended to signify an antithesis to "cool jazz",
although in practice, that line can be blurred as well. Originally, the
term mostly applied to tunes with that gospel and/or blues influence.
What used to be called "funky" before that term took on other meanings -
think "The Preacher", "Moanin", "Dis Here", "Sidewinder", "Watermelon
Man", etc. These days, the term "hard bop" does indeed seem to get used
to apply to just about anything from the 50's or 60's that isn't bebop,
cool, or free. I personally prefer using the term "post bop", vague as
it is, for the tunes you are talking about, and reserve "hard bop" for
the funkier stuff. But common practice dictates otherwise. It's all
"hard bop" to many, and if you need a name to differentiate the funkier
tunes, you can try "soul jazz".
> And when does "post bop"
> stop? In a way everything after bop is post bop.
True enough, but the term does seem reasonably well established - just
not so much as "hard bop". Anyhow, it's not that there is a line in
time after which music ceased being post bop - much music produced today
*is* considered post bop. That is, people are still recording the tunes
you mention, and others very much like them, in more or less that same
style. It's more an evolutionary line that differentiates "post bop"
from other modern forms. As soon as you dispense with chord changes, or
a steady pulse, or idea of solo with accompaniment, it becomes some sort
of "avant-garde" or "free jazz" (labels that are even more problematic
than post bop or hard bop, but that's another story).
Another problem for you, terminology-wise, is that "post bop" is often
taken to includes all the more modal things a la "A Love Supreme" as
well as more introspective things a la Bill Evans' trios. So really,
the music you are looking for really is the music that could be
considered in the intersection of post bop and hard bop. It's not
actually that narrow a genre in terms of there not being much music in
this style. But it is true that hardly anyone does just this. Most
also lean one way or another - into the funky side or the introspective
side or the modal side or all of the above.
That said, probably the majority of pianists on the scene today do the
type of music you are talking about - mixed in with whatever else they
are interested in as well.
Andy Evans
sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com
Scott
Andy Evans <aeatarts...@aol.comnohawker> wrote:
: I'm just listening to Kenny Baron and thinking how much he sounds like Cedar
Luke Kaven
years, and I built Smalls Records around him. He was an underground
legend. Unfortunately, he died (at age 66) before his first recording
was released. His posthumous release, called "We Loved You" is now
out and the story is making it around in the press, where I've gotten
to go on an extended tirade on the issue.
Sacha Perry, also a subject of my label, is, I think, the only young
pianist under 50 who understands bebop and who is a master of harmony
himself. His own record will be out later this year, but he's also
out front with the NY quintet "Across 7 Street", who does have a
record currently released.
Few of you probably know the name George Ziskind, maybe a few from his
writings in here, but he's amazing, more testimony to the disconnect
between the labels and the art.
It is damn hard to think of great pianists these days, I'm sorry to
say.
Windwalker
Evans) wrote:
>
>The whole problem with Flanagan was that he COULDN'T really play through the
>changes on Giant Steps - the only big let-down with that great album. McCoy
>could, of course, and guys like Cedar Walton, and as has been said Kieth
>Jarrett when he plays that kind of style.
That's a crock. Sure, he wasn't very fluent with those
patterns on that particular session, but he hadn't been
wood-shedding them like Trane had, NOR HAD ANY
OTHER PIANIST at that time.
Windwalker
>Barry Harris comes immediately to mind.
>Toshiko Akioshi (sp?) is good at it also.
Thank God someone mentioned the great Barry Harris,
who plays the changes the way they were meant to be played.
For a more contemporary bop style, check out Mulgrew Miller.
Kenny Barron and Cedar Walton are both great bop players, but
they don't sound anything alike to me.
--
peace
Mark Eisenman
nu...@null.com wrote on 4/20/04 6:09 AM:
To support your post, it's time to re post this.
25 ago when I was a student at York University's Jazz Program (Toronto) we
were lucky to have many great jazz players come up and do clinics if they
were already playing in town. We had The Tommy Flanagan trio come and do one
of these clinics and somebody asked Tommy about that date (Giants Steps). He
said that 'Trane had laid the music on him previous to the session but not
saying anything about how it was to be played (I don't recall how far in
advance but my sense is that it might have been on the order of a day or
two). In any case, he remembers sitting down and playing through the tune
and thinking--"Nice ballad, pretty tune, interesting changes."
Cut to recording session---Everything's going great, Trane calls Giant
Steps, and to Tommy's surprise counts this "pretty ballad" off at the tempo
we all know. What you hear on that record is the sound of a great musician
doing his best in a situation that no one had ever been in before.
Imagine how scary that would be. Wow.
All the best,
MARK
Mark Eisenman
276 Willow Ave.
Toronto, ON
Canada
M4E 3K7
416 694 6688
sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com
: Imagine how scary that would be. Wow.
I saw Flanagan in a trio concert a few weeks before he died.
One of the tunes he played was "Giant Steps", and he no difficulty
breezing through the changes in his subtle, artful style.
He even told the same story that you just posted, about being
well prepared for the changes, but assuming it was to be a ballad.
That recording must have haunted him his whole life, for him to
still be telling the story at concerts 40 years later.
Scott
Nick
> On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 03:59:28 -0500, <nine...@grandecom.net> wrote:
>
> >Barry Harris comes immediately to mind.
> >Toshiko Akioshi (sp?) is good at it also.
>
>
> Thank God someone mentioned the great Barry Harris,
> who plays the changes the way they were meant to be played.
Barry Harris is a fine hardcore bebop pianist. However, the original
poster stated he was looking for something post Moment's Notice/Giant
Steps, which is definitely not Harris.
Michael West
Thanks Mark. I remember reading, too, that
in practice, Tommy had approached the "ballad"
(as he though it was, because there were no tempo
markings on the sheet Trane sent him) by constructing
solos on long chains of block chords. I'll bet it was
beautiful. Unfortunately, you can't play block chords
at the tempo Trane called, so Tommy's whole concept
went out the window.
He was a beautiful, melodic player, who could
swing with ease on any tune. Until that day,
anyway.
Personally, I think Tommy had the right idea.
It's better as a ballad, unless you happen to
be JWC.
--
Michael West
Ira Chineson
<sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com> wrote in message
news:nKchc.7210$Fo4....@typhoon.sonic.net...
He also re-recorded Giant Steps on his own "Giant Steps" album in 1982 for
Enja.
Andy Evans
poster stated he was looking for something post Moment's Notice/Giant
Steps, which is definitely not Harris.>
Well, my model would be Cedar Walton. Very interesting about Tommy Flanagan. If
it was the case that he hadn't played changes like Giant Steps before that
studio date, then we could indeed say that 'contemporary' bop pianists were
post giant Steps. But wait a minute - wasn't Blue Trane before Giant Steps?
Giant Steps was released 1960 - no date on Blue Trane, but if it preceded 1960
then Flanagan might have known that Coltrane's repertoire included tunes like
Moment's Notice which were played up tempo. By 1964 Cedar was playing some
complex changes like Pensativa on Blakey's 'Free for All'. And when was Lush
Life composed? I have a feeling that there were a number of tunes with complex
changes that predate 1960, so I don't know if it's fair to say that Flanagan
didn't see some of this coming before the studio date.
Nick
> Barry Harris is a fine hardcore bebop pianist. However, the original
> poster stated he was looking for something post Moment's Notice/Giant
> Steps, which is definitely not Harris.>
>
> Well, my model would be Cedar Walton. Very interesting about Tommy Flanagan. If
> it was the case that he hadn't played changes like Giant Steps before that
> studio date, then we could indeed say that 'contemporary' bop pianists were
> post giant Steps. But wait a minute - wasn't Blue Trane before Giant Steps?
> Giant Steps was released 1960 - no date on Blue Trane, but if it preceded 1960
> then Flanagan might have known that Coltrane's repertoire included tunes like
> Moment's Notice which were played up tempo. By 1964 Cedar was playing some
> complex changes like Pensativa on Blakey's 'Free for All'. And when was Lush
> Life composed? I have a feeling that there were a number of tunes with complex
> changes that predate 1960, so I don't know if it's fair to say that Flanagan
> didn't see some of this coming before the studio date.
Blue Train was recorded in Sept. of '57, Giant Steps in May of '59. I
don't know what Flanagan was doing during that period, but it wouldn't
surprise me that he hadn't absorbed Coltrane's modern concept by that
time. A few years later, Trane's influence was far more pervasive.
I consider Moment's Notice the first "post bop" recording. It's
challenging compared to most bebop tunes, but "Giant Steps" is on a
whole other level. I believe most pianists of the time, even top-tier
ones like Flanagan, would've had a hard time playing it without
substantial preparation.
Marc Sabatella
like
> Moment's Notice which were played up tempo.
Certainly, but Giant Steps is sort of in a class by itslef in terms of
complexity. Actually, it is composed of three fairly simple harmonic
phrases, but it switches back and forth between them in an almost random
manner. The real trick is just not getting lost.
Anyhow, that story is pretty firmly established as a legend that is
actually more or less true - Flanagan was caught completely unawares at
the "Giant Steps" session.
> I don't know if it's fair to say that Flanagan
> didn't see some of this coming before the studio date.
It's ont hting to know there is complex stuff coming, it's another to be
able to essentially sight read Giant Steps in particular. Trust me on
this - on somewhat fumbled take on this tune first time seeing it does
not an incompetend pianist make. Check out other recordings of Flanagan
is there is any doubt.
Myth
"Michael West" <mbw...@Remove.bigpond.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:4085b27b$0$79039$45be...@newscene.com...
>big snip<
I was just wondering if anybody has played/recorded it as a ballad. If yes
I'd like to check that out
TIA
Tom
Mel Wilson
"Myth" <tomkri...@webspeed.dk> wrote:
>I was just wondering if anybody has played/recorded it as a ballad. If yes
>I'd like to check that out
"Passos" by Fritz Pauer? (apparently recorded by Art
Farmer on "Mirage".)
Mel.
Myth
"Mel Wilson" <mwi...@the-wire.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:oY8hAls/KH/O08...@the-wire.com...
Thanks.
I just googled that, and according to Mirages homepage it's OOP, but then
there's always e-Bay ect.
sgo...@changethisparttohardbat.com
: I was just wondering if anybody has played/recorded it as a ballad.
You mean, Giant Steps? If so, Toots Thielmans made a recording of it
in which he first plays it by himself, rather slow, and then up-tempo
at the end. It's on the album "Captured Alive". (ironically enough,
it's not a live album).
Scott
Nick
> "Michael West" <mbw...@Remove.bigpond.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:4085b27b$0$79039$45be...@newscene.com...
>
> >big snip<
>
> I was just wondering if anybody has played/recorded it as a ballad. If yes
> I'd like to check that out
> TIA
> Tom
I wouldn't quite call it a ballad, but Pat Metheny did an interesting,
laid-back version on his "Trio 99>00" album a few years back, followed
by a live version on "Trio Live."
Myth
"Nick" <nick...@aol.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:1d97fb30.04042...@posting.google.com...
And Scott wrote
You mean, Giant Steps? If so, Toots Thielmans made a recording of it
in which he first plays it by himself, rather slow, and then up-tempo
at the end. It's on the album "Captured Alive". (ironically enough,
it's not a live album).
Scott
Thanks guys, this is getting interesting, now if I could find some lyrics
I'd have my work cut out for the next coupla years ;-)
Take care,
Tom
Andy Evans
ric
> I wouldn't quite call it a ballad, but Pat Metheny did an interesting,
> laid-back version on his "Trio 99>00" album a few years back, followed
> by a live version on "Trio Live."
Indeed, the trio of tunes from "Bright Size Life" to "Question and Answer"
to "Giant Steps" makes the beginning of "Trio Live" as good as it gets.
Metheny's studio version of "Giant Steps" is almost bossa at times. Two
great releases by Metheny.
--
Better than hearing "Lady Day", or checking in at Monterey...
Andy Evans
Metheny live is an animal - he can go through the changes and have you on the
edge of your seat for 30 choruses. Some of the best live music I've heard.
Mike C.
Life, when we are kids
Was like play-ing gi-ant steps
We were told to ad-vance
We o-beyed took the chance
You're it.
Think of life as chess
Cap-ture on piece at a time
Fo-ward east, Cas-tle next
Not the pace
But the steps
Check-mate.
Betty H. Neals wrote the lyrics, whoever that is.
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
"As much as I love music, I never really thought it was my life. I thought
it was the vehicle I used to express my life" - Herbie Mann
"Myth" <tomkri...@webspeed.dk> wrote in message
news:40881ca1$0$424$edfa...@dread14.news.tele.dk...
Michael West
> I have a feeling that there were a number of
> tunes with complex changes that predate 1960, so I don't know if it's
> fair to say that Flanagan didn't see some of this coming before the
> studio date.
Here's something to think about. Often jazz players
compose a head long after they've been jamming
over the changes. Often the head is an afterthought --
just something to hang their new licks on.
I'll bet you any money that Coltrane was practicing
lines on the "Giant Steps" pattern long before he
actually sat down and wrote the head. Coltrane was
woodshedding constantly. He worked from exercise
books for horn, for piano, for harp. He worked
through Slonimski's Thesaurus. He was a driven
man. I wouldn't be surprised at all to hear that
Coltrane used that pattern as a practice exercise,
working through all twelve keys:
B D7 G Bb7 Eb Gb7 B
C Eb7 Ab B7 E G7 C
Db E7 A C7 F Ab7 Db
D etc
Do that for a few hours a day and you'll be
ready for "Giant Steps".
--
Michael West
Michael West
> "Michael West" <mbw...@Remove.bigpond.com> skrev i en meddelelse
> news:4085b27b$0$79039$45be...@newscene.com...
>
>> big snip<
>
> I was just wondering if anybody has played/recorded it as a ballad.
> If yes I'd like to check that out
[Re: Giant Steps]
I'm sure it's been done, but I don't any
references handy.
I do remember reading something that Ellis
Marsalis said, though. He said for a long time
he was stymied by the tune, and then he found
that if he practised it as a slow-to-medium
waltz (one chord per measure for the first four
bars, etc), interesting things started happening
and it all made sense.
I do this in practice -- it makes a beautiful waltz.
Tempo-wise, I put it about where Bill Evans put
"Waltz for Debby" on the first recording.
--
Michael West
ric
> Two great releases by Metheny.>
>
> Metheny live is an animal - he can go through the changes and have you on the
> edge of your seat for 30 choruses. Some of the best live music I've heard.
Yes, same with his release "Travels".
Saw him live with Joshua Redman in San Juan Capistrano. Good stuff.
Andy Evans
ready for "Giant Steps".>
We've all tried at some point, I think! Trouble is everytime you call it on the
stand, somebody won't play it.
Epistrophy
She co-composed Rahsaan's "Theme for the Eulipions" and did the recitation on
"Return of the 5,000 Lb. Man". Last year in NYC she did some poetry reading
with cellist Akua Dixon (Steve Turre's wife) and she's worked with La MaMa.
Other than that, who knows? I doubt she's the same person as the Harlequin
romance writer.
- Todd