who are the great male jazz singers?
puck
puck
'...aura tout fait par amour, tout ce qui compte :
l'amour et la musique. Mais l'amour, comme on sait,
l'aura moins aime que la musique.' - alain gerber
Philstein
view the only two great male *jazz* singers are Louis Armstrong & Dizzy
Gillespie. Both sing the way they play their instruments. This is not
to say that a lot of the material they sang isn't dud. Then you have
great popular singers in a jazz context, like Billy Eckstine or Jimmy
Rushing and Joe Williams. Aside from them you have cabaret singers like
Sinatra, Torme & Bennett who are usually confused with jazz singers by
people who don't know Jazz (ducks head and waits for loud roars!); and
singers like Slim Gaillard, Leo Watson and Billy Banks who, while
usually operative in the Jazz milieu, to me could not be considered
Jazz singers as such either.
But, who needs vocals (by which I mean *words*) anyway? Most of the
time they just get in the way of the music (unless you're Bob Dylan in
which case in my opinion the reverse is true). Scat's OK though, as
long as it's well nigh meaningless (eelya-da!).
Cheers,
Phil Wilson
Anglesey
N. Wales
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ulf Åbjörnsson
American Songbook.
The best jazz singers are way above all the others Louis Armstrong, and then
Mel Tormé, Billy Eckstine, Joe Williams, Johnny Hartman, Herb Jeffries. I
might have missed somebody.
Ulf in Svedala
puck <haw...@cf.ac.ukspamtrap> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:nf4lrskg2ramlfcg6...@4ax.com...
Tom W. Ferguson
> Mel Tormé, Billy Eckstine, Joe Williams, Johnny Hartman, Herb Jeffries. I
> might have missed somebody.
I wonder how long before Mark Murphy or Jon Hendricks or Eddie Jefferson get
mentioned to satisfy those who insist a voice be used like a horn. Or Chet
Baker to satisfy those who want to hear a voice used like the singer used
HIS horn. Or Ray Charles to satisfy those who like a stylist rooted in the
blues. I think there have been a bundle of great singers who, depending on
your definition of "jazz singer," make the cut. I'd say Torme was my
favorite, but that would be a lot like making a list of favorites. I'm
inclined to think that Jefferson has been the most overlooked of the lot.
hea...@in-tch.com
hea...@in-tch.com
Heath
Gary Smiley
Faizal Ali
uli_...@my-deja.com
Richard Thurston
past ten or fifteen years is Andy Bey.
Although he has a performing and recording history which extends back
forty-odd years, his recent recordings on Evidence Records, 'Ballads,
Blues & Bey (1996) and 'Shades of Bey' (1998) provide proof Bey is the
possessor of one of the great voices in music and is capable of
extremely nuanced and beautifully shaded performance.
Whether singing from the great American songbook or revisiting such
material as '60's British pop star Nick Drakes's 'River Man' Bey is a
compelling, absolutely one of a kind talent.
--
Richard Thurston
catac...@my-deja.com
William R. Gowers
>> Neither of the above particularly strikes me as a jazz singer. In my
>> view the only two great male *jazz* singers are Louis Armstrong & Dizzy
>> Gillespie. Both sing the way they play their instruments.
If one of the criteria for a jazz singer is to sing like you play your
instrument we shouldn't overlook Chet Baker.
**************************
William R. Gowers
W. Robert Gowers
William Robert Gowers
Billy-Bob Gowers
WGow...@AOL.COM
Ulf Åbjörnsson
belongs to the list, too.
Ulf
Tom W. Ferguson <t...@pathwaynet.com> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:B5E0410E.CC6A%t...@pathwaynet.com...
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Ulf
Gary Smiley <gasm...@mediaone.net> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:39BAEAA1...@mediaone.net...
Ulf Åbjörnsson
> I notice that there is no mention of Al Jarreau and Bobby McFerrin. Are
they
> relegated to the rmb abyss into which people like Kenny G are thrown?
Not that bad, but IMO they are not jazz singers. "Voice gymnastics" would be
a better billing.
Ulf
Nicolas Vaslier
Wissels.
puck <haw...@cf.ac.ukspamtrap> a écrit dans le message :
nf4lrskg2ramlfcg6...@4ax.com...
Leo Scanlon
wrote:
>In article <nf4lrskg2ramlfcg6...@4ax.com>,
> haw...@cf.ac.uk wrote:
>> is sinatra jazz or just swing? tony bennet perhaps?
>> puck
>>
>Neither of the above particularly strikes me as a jazz singer. In my
>view the only two great male *jazz* singers are Louis Armstrong & Dizzy
>Gillespie. Both sing the way they play their instruments.
I'm not much of a Bennett fan, so I won't comment on him. But to my
ears, Sinatra is every bit a jazz singer. Yes Louis and Diz "sing the
way they play their instruments", but so does Franks, because his
voice IS his instrument! Note the little changes he makes in melodies
and the way he inserts pauses and draws out phrases (and manipulates
them). That puts him firmly in the jazz idiom, I believe.
But when you get right down to it, does it matter whether or not
Sinatra is a jazz singer per se? He was one hell of a singer; the
best ever, in fact.
>But, who needs vocals (by which I mean *words*) anyway? Most of the
>time they just get in the way of the music (unless you're Bob Dylan in
>which case in my opinion the reverse is true). Scat's OK though, as
>long as it's well nigh meaningless (eelya-da!).
I trust you're not saying that to be a jazz singer, the person needs
to scat . If so, that leaves out Billie Holiday.
Leo
Leo Scanlon
<aabj...@algonet.se> wrote:
>IMO both Sinatra and Bennet are jazz-influenced interpretors of The Great
>American Songbook.
>
>The best jazz singers are way above all the others Louis Armstrong, and then
>Mel Tormé, Billy Eckstine, Joe Williams, Johnny Hartman, Herb Jeffries. I
>might have missed somebody.
Well...Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Jon Hendricks, Nat Cole, Jack
Teagarden, Woody Herman (yes, as a singer!), Dinah Washington, Sarah
Vaughan, and Mildred Bailey
Leo
Bobby Knight
singers mentioned are great, but are any of them true jazz singers? In
the first place, unless you're discussing scat, words get into the way.
Then we're going to have to define jazz, and if you'll read the posts
here you'll find an argument brewing there. Does a singer have to
improvise to be a jazz singer? Does scat become the defining factor,
or, as someone pointed out, does Sinatra's slight adaptations make his
issue jazz?
My suggestion is to enjoy all of them, and hope that RAP burns and dies.
bk
Philstein
lsca...@erols.com (Leo Scanlon) wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Sep 2000 21:46:57 GMT, Philstein <gerr...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> I'm not much of a Bennett fan, so I won't comment on him. But to my
> ears, Sinatra is every bit a jazz singer. Yes Louis and Diz "sing the
> way they play their instruments", but so does Franks, because his
> voice IS his instrument! Note the little changes he makes in melodies
> and the way he inserts pauses and draws out phrases (and manipulates
> them). That puts him firmly in the jazz idiom, I believe.
>
> But when you get right down to it, does it matter whether or not
> Sinatra is a jazz singer per se? He was one hell of a singer; the
> best ever, in fact.
>
Well, it's probably a matter of taste in some respects,and I'll readily
admit that Sinatra has never done a lot for me.
> I trust you're not saying that to be a jazz singer, the person needs
> to scat . If so, that leaves out Billie Holiday.
>
In a sense, yes. I think that people are so used to hearing music &
words together that they think that there must be some intimate
connection between the two. But I think that the appreciation of words
as meaning and the appreciation of music as abstract style, whatever
genre you're talking about - classical, jazz, popular, whatever - come
from two completely different areas of aesthetics. Of course, one could
point to odd examples where the music seems to underscore the words in
a particularly apt way, but that's a hangover from the romantic era,
where music was held to be "expressive" and to picture certain
emotional states. At its most basic: if words have power why do they
need music? What is the meaning in words of, let's see, Beethoven's 5th?
What I think does happen is that the undoubted attractiveness and
rhythmic power of music is used to dilute or aid what might otherwise
be an (un)popular message in words (protest songs come to mind). But
maybe I'm just a purist. As for Billie Holiday, I like a lot of the
stuff she did, but have to say that a lot of the time I get slightly
tired of her mannerisms (that falling-away from a note). This is
probably more a function of the recorded medium, where idiosyncrasies
wear you down by repetition, than the live concert context. Was she a
jazz singer? Hmmm....I'll need to think about that one.
> Leo
>
Cheers,
Phil Wilson
Anglesey
N. Wales.
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Leo Scanlon skrev ...
>
> Well...Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, .... Dinah Washington, Sarah
> Vaughan, and Mildred Bailey
> Leo
Hey, Leo!
You missed one word in the headline! I don't thing any of these ladies are
particularly "male"! ;-))
Ulf
puck
stood up, raised ones hand and gleefully exclaimed:
>In article <39BACF04...@in-tch.com>, hea...@in-tch.com writes:
>
>>> Neither of the above particularly strikes me as a jazz singer. In my
>>> view the only two great male *jazz* singers are Louis Armstrong & Dizzy
>>> Gillespie. Both sing the way they play their instruments.
>
>If one of the criteria for a jazz singer is to sing like you play your
>instrument we shouldn't overlook Chet Baker.
definately, if that is the criteria i don't think anyone comes above
chet or certainly the people i have heard..
puck
stood up, raised ones hand and gleefully exclaimed:
> I trust you're not saying that to be a jazz singer, the person needs
>to scat . If so, that leaves out Billie Holiday.
and diana krall
*protests*
puck
ones hand and gleefully exclaimed:
>I think Nat Cole also sang the way he played.
>Heath
>Philstein wrote:
does fats waller count?
what about cab calloway... i mean that really is old jazz for me as i
tend to only listen at post parker jazz... including parker of
course..
Ali Berkok
This is really silly. Whether or not one uses their voice like an
instrument or uses words, words simply are a part of the standard repertoire
tunes. If practicing jazz players shared the view that "words get in the way"
then why are they constantly playing and recording standards. It is a part of
the tradition and besides. The presence of lyrics in a tune (whether sung or
not) adds structure and coherence to a tune.
Similarly, it is arrogant to undermine the text to music relationship
which has been an issue for far longer than some of you might suggest. The
idea that music can be used to support the meaning of the text is older than
the "Romantic era" (try before recorded history). It is very presumptious of
anyone here to undermine this relationship. It is true that many composers
write purely instrumental music, but this does not necessarily mean that said
composer has renounced lyrics forever.
I'd like to hear what people think about this pigeonholing of what a jazz
vocalist "should" be. Frank and Tony Bennett are every bit as much jazz
musicians as Miles or Coltrane.
-Ali
Philstein
So having a different opinion from you qualifies as arrogance? I see.
We'll just have to disagree then. Description (not pigeonholing) of
a "jazz" vocalist to me implies some ability to sing Jazz. In my view
neither Bennett nor Sinatra do this, regardless of their otherwise
outstanding taste and ability, which I cannot see but will not deny.
What I will say however is: 95% of vocalists cannot sing, 75% of songs
are drivel and a good 50% of what is called Jazz isn't. This still
leaves an awful lot, fortunately.But if I go to a restaurant and order
steak and what they bring me is re-textured soya meat-substitute, I'm
justified in complaining about what I get.
Cheers,
Phil Wilson
Anglesey
N.Wales
Ali Berkok
Sinatra are definitely Jazz singers. They may not, however, sing bebop.
Are you sure this is not what you mean? Out of curiosity, are you an actual
musician yourself (and please, this is out of curiosity and not any attempt
to exclude you)?
Tom W. Ferguson
Is that a typo? Do you mean "swing"?
>> 75% of songs
>> are drivel
Material is material. It becomes what you make of it. I would ask you, for
example, just going from a lead sheet, to expostulate on the virtues of
"Blue Monk" over "Tin Roof Blues" as a "jazz song." I would expect that you
believe, say, "Bye Bye Blackbird" or "Someday My Prince Will Come" to be
"drivel." Any musician or singer can take almost any piece of material and
make it his or hers in almost any genre. Try the "Stoned Country" album and
tell me "Time Is On My Side" wasn't written for George Jones. (Couldn't
resist.)
Jazzcorner
Hi Leo
with your permission I quoted your nice words about Sinatra in the
special Sinatra Newsgroup.
I agree in full with you
Willie (from Germany)
Leo Scanlon <lsca...@erols.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
39bb69ca...@news.erols.com...
Ulf Åbjörnsson
> does fats waller count?
> what about cab calloway... i mean that really is old jazz for me as i
> tend to only listen at post parker jazz... including parker of
> course..
> puck
>
Ulf in Svedala
Simon Weil
>The arrogance lies in you deciding what is and isn't Jazz. Bennett and
>Sinatra are definitely Jazz singers.
Yeah, but if he decides Bennett and Sinatra aren't Jazz ain't that just the
same thing as you deciding Bennett and Sinatra *are* Jazz? Let's leave it at
that.
I don't know about great, at least - not yet. But there was this guy on the Don
Byron Existential Dred gig who I kept thinking was a roadie doing background
vocals - until right at the end where he pulled out the best solo of the night
- rounded, satisfying, exciting - really captivating and in a modern style. A
guy called Dean Bowman. Maybe he's got the makings.
Simon Weil
Check out my Wagner and the Jews book at:
http://members.aol.com/wagnerbuch/intro.htm
Philstein
ali.b...@sympatico.ca wrote:
> The arrogance lies in you deciding what is and isn't Jazz. Bennett
and
> Sinatra are definitely Jazz singers. They may not, however, sing
bebop.
> Are you sure this is not what you mean? Out of curiosity, are you an
actual
> musician yourself (and please, this is out of curiosity and not any
attempt
> to exclude you)?
>
No, Ali, *prescribing* for everyone else what Jazz is or isn't would be
arrogance. I've been careful to call everything as I see it, and
say "in my view" when giving my views. I can do no other. But at some
stage you have to be honest enough to put your cards on the table (and
risk upsetting people) by telling it the way you find it. And the way I
find it is that Sinatra & Bennett, whatever their qualities as singers,
which may appeal to others, evoke in me not the slightest "jazz"
feeling, or even liking. As for wanting everybody to sing "bebop" I
previously stated Louis Armstrong to be a (the?) great Jazz singer, and
in case you think I'm pro-Afro-American, I think Jack Teagarden is a
great Jazz singer too.
Style (*Jazz* style - knowledge AND use of the language) is what
counts. Helen Humes, to me, has got it, Helen Shapiro doesn't. Billie
Holiday? Well that's a tricky one.
I'm not a professional musician, but have played flute & saxophone and
play piano (but not Jazz at which I'm no good). I've been listening to
Jazz for 35 years and classical for slightly less long. I'm familiar
with music theory to a large extent and read music. But all you need is
ears and a brain to sort out the wheat from the chaff, and a fair
amount of goodwill, for which reason I'll refrain from giving you my
opinion of Miles Davis & John Coltrane :-)
Cheers,
Phil Wilson
Anglesey
N. Wales
Bobby Knight
<clip>
>
> No, Ali, *prescribing* for everyone else what Jazz is or isn't would be
> arrogance. I've been careful to call everything as I see it, and
> say "in my view" when giving my views. I can do no other. But at some
> stage you have to be honest enough to put your cards on the table (and
> risk upsetting people) by telling it the way you find it. And the way I
> find it is that Sinatra & Bennett, whatever their qualities as singers,
> which may appeal to others, evoke in me not the slightest "jazz"
No problem...your opinion. My opinion is that you're wrong.
bk
Philstein
"Tom W. Ferguson" <t...@pathwaynet.com> wrote:
> >> 95% of vocalists cannot sing,
>
> Is that a typo? Do you mean "swing"?
>
> >> 75% of songs
> >> are drivel
>
> Material is material. It becomes what you make of it. I would ask
you, for
> example, just going from a lead sheet, to expostulate on the virtues
of
> "Blue Monk" over "Tin Roof Blues" as a "jazz song." I would expect
that you
> believe, say, "Bye Bye Blackbird" or "Someday My Prince Will Come" to
be
> "drivel." Any musician or singer can take almost any piece of
material and
> make it his or hers in almost any genre. Try the "Stoned Country"
album and
> tell me "Time Is On My Side" wasn't written for George Jones.
(Couldn't
> resist.)
>
Yeah, yeah. Look, I was exaggerating for effect. Yes I know that a
great artist in any particular genre can do great things with a song,
but, in the long run, it's what does it for me. And I'm afraid that the
great swathe of popular/rock music, no matter how well done, is about
as much interest to me as a tap-dancing poodle. Surgeons should cut a
nick in the vocal c(h)ords of every baby, so that the assumption of a
singing career should be as the result of lots of effort. It's just too
damn easy for most people to assume that because they can open their
throats and make a noise that they *should* do it.I watch German
television on satellite a lot, as the Germans are still wise enough to
give plenty of space to Jazz. However, practically every act comes with
the obligatory singer, who thinks that snapping their fingers and
going "yeah" every so often qualifies them as a Jazz singer. I can
throw paint at a canvas, but that doesn't make me an "artist". Still,
this is as Nietzsche said "privatissima & personalissima" to a large
extent and probably inexplicable to others that don't feel the same way.
Cheers,
Phil Wilson
Anglesey
N. Wales
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Simon Weil
>Billie
>Holiday [is a Jazz singer]? Well that's a tricky one.
>
Well she didn't scat and the fundamental thing she did was interpret popular
song. But on the other hand, she was quite incapable of coming at any song
straight. There would always have to be some angle, through which she would
express her fierce intelligence - so whatever the song was before she got hold
of it - at the end she turned it into something else. All of it, so far as I
can hear, conveyed through improvised nuance. So, she shares with a Jazz
instrumentalist the taking of a song and really remaking it to suit her own
needs - and doing this via improvisation - so I'd say that's Jazz. On the other
hand she interprets popular song, so I guess that wouldn't be. At any rate I
think I can see the argument for her not being considered only a Jazz singer
(or only an interpreter come to that).
void
>
>My suggestion is to enjoy all of them, and hope that RAP burns and dies.
But rap is jazz too!
<ducking>
--
Ben
220 go.ahead.make.my.day ESMTP Postfix
void
>
>Neither of the above particularly strikes me as a jazz singer. In my
>view the only two great male *jazz* singers are Louis Armstrong & Dizzy
>to say that a lot of the material they sang isn't dud. Then you have
>great popular singers in a jazz context, like Billy Eckstine or Jimmy
>Rushing and Joe Williams. Aside from them you have cabaret singers like
>Sinatra, Torme & Bennett who are usually confused with jazz singers by
>people who don't know Jazz (ducks head and waits for loud roars!); and
>singers like Slim Gaillard, Leo Watson and Billy Banks who, while
>usually operative in the Jazz milieu, to me could not be considered
>Jazz singers as such either.
I wonder, what do people around here think of Lambert, Hendricks and
Ross?
Marc Sabatella
I'd say that both *can* and *have* sung jazz, but are better known for
the other styles they do.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
LATEST RELEASE - Check out my CD, "Falling Grace"!
Plus "A Jazz Improvisation Primer", sound clips, scores, & more:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Marc Sabatella
> What I will say however is: 95% of vocalists cannot sing, 75% of songs
> are drivel and a good 50% of what is called Jazz isn't. This still
> leaves an awful lot, fortunately.But if I go to a restaurant and order
> steak and what they bring me is re-textured soya meat-substitute, I'm
> justified in complaining about what I get.
The difference, however, is that "steak" has a well-defined meaning you
can find in any dictionary. You will find no such consensus on the
meaning of the word "jazz", so to complain when other people define it a
little differently than you do is a rather different deal.
Thomas F Brown
>>
>>Sinatra, Torme & Bennett who are usually confused with jazz singers by
>>people who don't know Jazz (ducks head and waits for loud roars!)
Bzzzt! Torme is one of the most accomplished scat singers ever to come
along. In fact, there are only a handful of scatters in his league, with
regards to harmonic understanding and a command of the jazz language
comparable to a good instrumentalist. One doesn't have to like or
enjoy him to admit his virtuosity and command of the language.
You should also hear Sinatra live with a small combo before you
decide he isn't a jazz singer.
Thomas F Brown
Ulf Åbjörnsson <aabj...@algonet.se> wrote:
>IMO both Sinatra and Bennet are jazz-influenced interpretors of The Great
>American Songbook.
>
>The best jazz singers are way above all the others Louis Armstrong, and then
>Mel Tormé, Billy Eckstine, Joe Williams, Johnny Hartman, Herb Jeffries. I
Why do you have Sinatra and Bennett in a category separate from the
rest? They worked with jazz musicians--always--swing like mothers,
and sing from the standards book. In fact, Sinatra created much of
the standards book.
Thomas F Brown
>mentioned to satisfy those who insist a voice be used like a horn.
In these examples, an out-of-tune horn.
Thomas F Brown
Gary Smiley <gasm...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Bob Dorough.
He was asking for "great" male jazz singers.
Thomas F Brown
Let's hope scat burns and dies in the same fire. I'll enjoy hearing
Ella and Louis scat. I'll tolerate it from Torme and Vaughan.
Everyone else should cease and desist immediately. You don't
know what you're doing and you sound like shit.
Bobby Knight
>
> In article <39BB701D...@verio.net>,BK wrote:
<clip>
> >
> >My suggestion is to enjoy all of them, and hope that RAP burns and dies.
>
> Let's hope scat burns and dies in the same fire. I'll enjoy hearing
> Ella and Louis scat. I'll tolerate it from Torme and Vaughan.
> Everyone else should cease and desist immediately. You don't
> know what you're doing and you sound like shit.
This is just a question for information, with no implications. I've
read your posts today and wonder what your background is, and how you've
arrived at all of these conclusions. I respect your opinion, but it
comes off as an absolute. Do you have credentials to support these
opinions?
bk
Ulf Åbjörnsson
> How did Mumbles get left out? (Clark Terry)
>
>
> Ulf Åbjörnsson wrote:
> >IMO both Sinatra and Bennet are jazz-influenced interpretors of The Great
> >American Songbook.
> >The best jazz singers are way above all the others Louis Armstrong, and
then
> >Mel Tormé, Billy Eckstine, Joe Williams, Johnny Hartman, Herb Jeffries. I
> >might have missed somebody.
> >
Like I wrote: I might have missed somebody. He should certainly be on the
list!
Ulf
Philstein
"Marc Sabatella" <ma...@outsideshore.com> wrote:
> Philstein <gerr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > What I will say however is: 95% of vocalists cannot sing, 75% of
songs
> > are drivel and a good 50% of what is called Jazz isn't. This still
> > leaves an awful lot, fortunately.But if I go to a restaurant and
order
> > steak and what they bring me is re-textured soya meat-substitute,
I'm
> > justified in complaining about what I get.
>
> The difference, however, is that "steak" has a well-defined meaning
you
> can find in any dictionary. You will find no such consensus on the
> meaning of the word "jazz", so to complain when other people define it
a
> little differently than you do is a rather different deal.
>
presumptuousness for holding the perfectly, to me, valid opinion (and
one, what's more, that has been shared by other more highly qualified
musical commentators than me) that there is a problem with the
combination of words & music. Once you add to a piece of music the
necessity for it to "support" interpretable lyrics it seems to me that
you have aesthetic considerations pulling in incompatible directions.
Every great composer from the composer of the Psalms of David to Cole
Porter & beyond will have come across this problem: that the logic of
literary form and musical form have nothing in common (cf. the function
of repetition). To produce a literary song, it seems to me, one needs to
reduce the function of music to mere accompaniment (although what a
genius can make out of this accompaniment takes some beating) and this
necessarily, again, detracts from the artistic coherence of the music.
Think of the interminable stretches of accompaniment in Wagner. It is
probably better for composers to set mediocre verse, which Schubert did
a lot of the time, as long as it does not impede the musical argument.
In my view, Jazz is *primarily* an instrumental music, in spite of the
fact that most of its great practitioners have given in to popular taste
by supporting vocals from time to time. But "I love you but you don't
love me", while a great potential human theme, need not necessarily make
great Jazz.
As for Sinatra & Bennett, I'm a bit bemused here. When I started
listening to Jazz in the sixties, it was taken as read that both
belonged to the world of easy listening, swing-influenced pop. I still
cannot see any connection between their musical world & the austere but
glorious world of real Jazz as typified by Armstrong, Parker, Rollins,
Coltrane, Monk & so on. I also have grave reservations about their
qualities as singers per se, from the strict voice-production point of
view. BUT, as you say, one man's re-textured soya is another man's tofu.
Cheers,
Phil Wilson
Anglesey
N. Wales
Leo Scanlon
Brown) wrote:
When was Jon Hendricks ever out of tune?
Leo
Leo Scanlon
<aabj...@algonet.se> wrote:
>
>Leo Scanlon skrev ...
>>
>> Well...Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, .... Dinah Washington, Sarah
>> Vaughan, and Mildred Bailey
>> Leo
>
>Hey, Leo!
>
>You missed one word in the headline! I don't thing any of these ladies are
>particularly "male"! ;-))
Whoops! You got me there, Ulf. That's what I get for posting early
in the morning. :--)
Leo
Philstein
I think you've got it about right. One of the problems in assessing her,
to me at least, is that one is bound to be seduced by the contributions
of the great jazz musicians with whom she sang, and she got generally
greater backing bands than most. Overall I don't find her as attractive
as some other jazz singers, mainly for reasons of voice production and
mannerism, but I think she has to be given the thumbs-up insofar as jazz
style goes. Certain tracks I think she sings magnificently such as "Back
in your Own Backyard", "Georgia on my Mind".
Cheers,
Phil
Bruce LeClaire
Thomas F Brown wrote:
>
> In article <39BB701D...@verio.net>,
> Bobby Knight <bkn...@verio.net> wrote:
> >Jazz singer! The nomenclature is a little fuzzy anyway. All of the
> >singers mentioned are great, but are any of them true jazz singers? In
> >the first place, unless you're discussing scat, words get into the way.
> > [...]
> >
> >My suggestion is to enjoy all of them, and hope that RAP burns and dies.
>
> Let's hope scat burns and dies in the same fire. I'll enjoy hearing
> Ella and Louis scat. I'll tolerate it from Torme and Vaughan.
> Everyone else should cease and desist immediately. You don't
> know what you're doing and you sound like shit.
Careful Thomas, with use of phrases such as "Everyone else should cease
and desist immediately" people are apt to begin confusing you with Amos.
And while I'm visiting this thread, perhaps somebody will recognize the
following song (I've tried before on rmb, to no avail). The song is
quite funny, in a dry sort of fashion. It's about a jazz player who
takes his bass out on the town for a night of drinking. Literally- the
bass does more than its share of drinking.
Anyone know anything about this bass-drinking song?
That's bass, as in bass fiddle or bass guitar, and not Bass, as in
http://www.bass-brewers.com/
--Bruce (Cat-free as of today).
uli_...@my-deja.com
Philstein
there. I like Sinatra's personality, thought he was a very good actor,
liked a lot of his material (and often his choice of backing musicians)
but regrettably have never been inspired by his actual singing. It's
probably my fault, I know, but I only had to hear Herb Jeffries once to
know right away that here was a jazzman, none the less so for being a
band singer. He has unfortunately had a bad press from critics, and has
his odd points as a singer, but the basic jazz language is , for me,
undeniably there. It just doen't seem to be there with Sinatra as far
as I can hear. It's there with people like Teagarden too but to be
honest I think that very few singers actually are jazz singers as such.
It's personal though, I know. What the hell, if it makes you jump
around and dance without being embarassed (spelling?), it's the real
thing.
Cheers,
Phil Wilson
Anglesey
N. Wales.
Thomas F Brown
Bobby Knight <bkn...@verio.net> wrote:
>Thomas F Brown wrote:
>>
>> Let's hope scat burns and dies in the same fire. I'll enjoy hearing
>> Ella and Louis scat. I'll tolerate it from Torme and Vaughan.
>> Everyone else should cease and desist immediately. You don't
>> know what you're doing and you sound like shit.
>
>This is just a question for information, with no implications. I've
>read your posts today and wonder what your background is, and how you've
>arrived at all of these conclusions. I respect your opinion, but it
>comes off as an absolute. Do you have credentials to support these
>opinions?
What credentials do I need to know what I like?
I am a competent enough musician, at least to the point that
I can hear intonation and harmonic relationships and know
if someone is cutting the changes or faking it. The number
of scat singers who can make the changes at the level of
even an intermediate sax player are extremely few.
Thomas F Brown
Bruce LeClaire <bw...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>And while I'm visiting this thread, perhaps somebody will recognize the
>following song (I've tried before on rmb, to no avail). The song is
>quite funny, in a dry sort of fashion. It's about a jazz player who
>takes his bass out on the town for a night of drinking. Literally- the
>bass does more than its share of drinking.
>
>Anyone know anything about this bass-drinking song?
Probably by Jay Leonhart, the bass player who writes and sings
songs that he seems to think are humorous. The idea traces back
to a line in a song by Tom Waits about a piano that's been drinking.
Thomas F Brown
>Leon Thomas is another one...
...who should be strangled lest he ever gets the idea to yodel again.
Jack Woker
>
> >Leon Thomas is another one...
>
> ...who should be strangled lest he ever gets the idea to yodel again.
I believe the great strangler in the sky has taken care of that. :-)
jack
uli_...@my-deja.com
Michael Mann
very much. In general I'm not much of a scatting fan, but when
it comes to Thomas and Louis Armstrong, they can do no wrong.
-- Michael Mann ma...@uwyo.edu (307) 766-3338
Bruce LeClaire
But one might also consider the alternative, that he was called home by
the great Yodeler in the sky.
If all they have in heaven are lutes and yodelers, I might have to
reconsider my pick of "A Love Supreme" from yesterday.
--Bruce
Thomas F Brown
Sorry to hear that. I actually like his singing, but that yodeling...
Hal Vickery
> Leon Thomas is another one.
You beat me to him.
nsmf
Ton Maas
simo...@aol.com (Simon Weil) wrote:
>Yeah, but if he decides Bennett and Sinatra aren't Jazz ain't that just the
>same thing as you deciding Bennett and Sinatra *are* Jazz? Let's leave it at
>that.
As the British poet Roger McGough so elegantly said:
"The difference between
someone who loves
and someone who hates
is that someone who hates
has to explain what he means"
Ton
Philstein
Bennett & Co. but whether their activities in the vocal field could be
fairly described as jazz. This is a matter of taste of course to a large
extent, but also one of style. In my view the style of singing used by
both would more fairly be described as "easy listening/pop" with a
splash of Jazz colouring, much like you'd splash sauce on a meal. The
meal, however, remains pop. Nothing wrong with pop in its place (at the
far end of a very long table). To hold such a view is, in my humble
opinion, neither arrogant nor presumptuous.
As to the larger question, "hatred" in art or music requires no
explanation. I loathe the music of Aaron Copland for instance, but in
the long run it matters not one whit. No one is hurt - this isn't
politics after all. Negotiation is not required. I am dismayed to find
so many people nowadays confusing life and art.
The problem with describing one's feelings about music is precisely
that: describing one's "feelings". In the case of Copland, when I hear
his music I sort of feel like I'm being aurally attacked. Martinu is
another composer that drives me to distraction. So what? The cure is
avoidance.
This feeds into the larger question of whether music can be "good" or
"bad". I happen to feel that some music can have "damaging" effects on
someone's personality but I'd have a hard time proving it.
Cheers,
Phil Wilson
Anglesey
N. Wales
"We have art to protect ourselves from life (Nietzsche)"
Simon Weil
>>Yeah, but if he decides Bennett and Sinatra aren't Jazz ain't that just the
>>same thing as you deciding Bennett and Sinatra *are* Jazz? Let's leave it at
>>that.
>
>As the British poet Roger McGough so elegantly said:
>
>"The difference between
>someone who loves
>and someone who hates
>is that someone who hates
>has to explain what he means"
Shakespeare says:
"If music be the food of love, play on,
Give me excess of it, that, surfeiting,
The appetite may sicken and so die. That strain again! It had a dying fall;
O, it came o'er my ear like the sweet sound
That breathes upon a bank of violets
Stealing and giving odour! Enough, no more;
'Tis not so sweet now as it was before.
O spirit of love, how quick and fresh art thou!
That, notwithstanding thy capacity Receiveth as the sea, nought enters
there,
Of what validity and pitch soe'er,
But falls into abatement and low price Even in a minute."
Not much explanation there.
Thomas F Brown
Philstein <gerr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Irrelevant. The question at issue was not whether I "hated" Sinatra or
>Bennett & Co. but whether their activities in the vocal field could be
>fairly described as jazz. This is a matter of taste of course to a large
>extent, but also one of style. In my view the style of singing used by
>both would more fairly be described as "easy listening/pop" with a
>splash of Jazz colouring, much like you'd splash sauce on a meal. The
>meal, however, remains pop. Nothing wrong with pop in its place (at the
>far end of a very long table). To hold such a view is, in my humble
>opinion, neither arrogant nor presumptuous.
No, but it is wrong. Bennett and Sinatra both routinely worked
with and had the respect of the best jazz musicians in the world.
What else do you need to be a jazz musician? And "splash of jazz
coloration"? This is absurd. No one swings harder than Sinatra.
Bruce LeClaire
Thomas F Brown wrote:
>
> And "splash of jazz coloration"? This is absurd.
> No one swings harder than Sinatra.
I first read this as "No one splashes harder than Sinatra".
--Bruce
SteadyRiddimDis
jazz singers. But I must say Jon Hendricks is on the top of my list. That man
can swing like no other. ~Ray
Ton Maas
>> As the British poet Roger McGough so elegantly said:
>>
>> "The difference between
>> someone who loves
>> and someone who hates
>> is that someone who hates
>> has to explain what he means"
>>
>> Ton
>>
>Irrelevant. The question at issue was not whether I "hated" Sinatra or
>Bennett & Co. but whether their activities in the vocal field could be
>fairly described as jazz.
Sure, but one could also read McGough's poem on a more "trivial" level:
that inclusion often goes unnoticed, while exclusion calls for
explanations. I wasn't being personal about your stance.
Ton
jazz...@my-deja.com
Did you ever hear Chet Baker sing(& play) for instance "My Valentine"?
Please visit the website "Jazz World & Chet Baker" for suggestions!
my website addres: http://members.home.nl/jazz-wereld/
Listen to cd's-tracks? http://www.ubl.com/
jazz-greetings,
René Leemans
In article <hvickery-ya0240800...@nntp.ce.mediaone.net>,
bu...@bolden.cyl
jazz...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Did you ever hear Chet Baker sing(& play) for instance "My Valentine"?
No. Funny, eh?
Now, Mr.Leemans, would you be so kind
as to please introduce yourself:
Where are you from?
Do you have a website?
Can we visit your website?
What's the name of your website?
What's the address of your website?
Does you have a guestbook?
Can we use your guestbook?
> Please visit the website "Jazz World & Chet Baker" for suggestions!
>
> my website addres: http://members.home.nl/jazz-wereld/
>
> Listen to cd's-tracks? http://www.ubl.com/
>
> jazz-greetings,
> RenŽ Leemans
Philstein
music are normally based on "emotion" rather than stylistic
discrimination and further that someone who held strongly negative views
about something is required to account for his beliefs, while loving
something is its own explanation. Uncritical love is as bad as
uncritical hate.
Phil Wilson
Anglesey
N. Wales
Philstein
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) wrote:
> In article <8rruav$fov$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Philstein <gerr...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >Irrelevant. The question at issue was not whether I "hated" Sinatra
or
> >Bennett & Co. but whether their activities in the vocal field could
be
large
> >extent, but also one of style. In my view the style of singing used
by
> >both would more fairly be described as "easy listening/pop" with a
> >splash of Jazz colouring, much like you'd splash sauce on a meal. The
> >meal, however, remains pop. Nothing wrong with pop in its place (at
the
> >far end of a very long table). To hold such a view is, in my humble
> >opinion, neither arrogant nor presumptuous.
>
> No, but it is wrong. Bennett and Sinatra both routinely worked
> with and had the respect of the best jazz musicians in the world.
> coloration"? This is absurd. No one swings harder than Sinatra.
>
about what is and isn't jazz, tending to the less inclusive end of the
spectrum. I must make it my project in life to examine exactly why Mel
Torme, who I heard again the other day (scatting), strikes me - despite
all the accolades from musicians - as not to have had a real Jazz bone
in his body, while others see him as one of the great Jazz singers. It's
a mystery to me at the moment. I suspect it's to do with rhythm and
accent but I'll need to work on it.
Cheers,
Ulf Åbjörnsson
<bu...@bolden.cyl> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:giveus...@bolden.com...
>
>
> jazz...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Did you ever hear Chet Baker sing(& play) for instance "My Valentine"?
> No. Funny, eh?
>
No, sad rather than funny.
Ulf
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Philstein wrote
> I must make it my project in life to examine exactly why Mel
> Torme, who I heard again the other day (scatting), strikes me - despite
> all the accolades from musicians - as not to have had a real Jazz bone
> in his body, while others see him as one of the great Jazz singers. It's
> a mystery to me at the moment. I suspect it's to do with rhythm and
> accent but I'll need to work on it.
> Cheers,
> Phil Wilson
Yes, Phil, it's a funny world!
I myself see Mel Tormé as one of the very greatest jazz singers.
He has everything it takes IMO: he interprets the melody and lyrics very
freely - just like a jazz musician, he swings - just like a jazz musician,
he improvises (scat and otherwise) - just like a jazz musician, he sings
with warmth, humour and melody - just like a jazz musician.
Sinatra is a great singer with jazz elements, but he lacks the improvisation
elements - and without improvisation "it just ain't no jazz"!
Of course, the ultimate jazz singer is Pops (= Louis Armstrong)!
Ulf
bkn...@verio.net
<aabj...@algonet.se> wrote:
>I myself see Mel TormИ as one of the very greatest jazz singers.
>
>He has everything it takes IMO: he interprets the melody and lyrics very
>freely - just like a jazz musician, he swings - just like a jazz musician,
>he improvises (scat and otherwise) - just like a jazz musician, he sings
>with warmth, humour and melody - just like a jazz musician.
>
>Sinatra is a great singer with jazz elements, but he lacks the improvisation
>elements - and without improvisation "it just ain't no jazz"!
>
>Of course, the ultimate jazz singer is Pops (= Louis Armstrong)!
Opinions and assholes...everyone has one, and that's wonderful. My
question to you is; what constitutes a jazz singer? Singing scat?
Sinatra and Bennett both sing in the jazz idiom and neither lacks
improv elements, they're just subtle. If they're not your favorites,
fine, but you can't dismiss them from the genre.
Besides, Torme was a giant prick, which make me not want to listen to
him.
bk
bu...@bolden.cyl
"Ulf Åbjörnsson" wrote:
> > > Did you ever hear Chet Baker sing(& play) for instance "My Valentine"?
> >
> > No. Funny, eh?
> >
> No, sad rather than funny.
Sigh.
Ulf : R e a d.
Jack Woker
> him.
So was Miles Davis. :-)
So what?
jack
Ulf åbjÃrnsson
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:39e59307....@tx.news.verio.net...
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:45:44 +0200, "Ulf åbjÃrnsson"
> <aabj...@algonet.se> wrote:
>
> >I myself see Mel Tormé as one of the very greatest jazz singers.
> >
> >He has everything it takes IMO: he interprets the melody and lyrics very
> >freely - just like a jazz musician, he swings - just like a jazz
musician,
> >he improvises (scat and otherwise) - just like a jazz musician, he sings
> >with warmth, humour and melody - just like a jazz musician.
> >
> >Sinatra is a great singer with jazz elements, but he lacks the
improvisation
> >elements - and without improvisation "it just ain't no jazz"!
> >
> >Of course, the ultimate jazz singer is Pops (= Louis Armstrong)!
>
> Opinions and assholes...everyone has one, and that's wonderful. My
> question to you is; what constitutes a jazz singer? Singing scat?
If you read my mail above - you'll find it!
> Sinatra and Bennett both sing in the jazz idiom and neither lacks
> improv elements, they're just subtle. If they're not your favorites,
> fine, but you can't dismiss them from the genre.
I love both Sinatra and Bennett, but I do not consider them jazz singers -
they are interpretors of the GAASB, and as I say above IMO they are great
singers with certain jazz elements.
By the way, I consider Sinatra and Armstrong THE ARTISTS of the 20th
century.
>
> Besides, Torme was a giant prick, which make me not want to listen to
> him.
> bk
I don't know what you mean with "he was a giant prick". His personal life
does not count when you judge his singing. If that's important criteria you
would not be able to consider Miles Davis a good jazz musician.
And I have heard from close friends who met Mel Torme that he was a very
pleasant personality.
Ulf
Bobby Knight
>
> And I have heard from close friends who met Mel Torme that he was a very
> pleasant personality.
I worked with him too many times, and his personality made me not want
to hear him sing...even with all that talent.
bk
Bobby Knight
Jack Woker wrote:
>
> > Besides, Torme was a giant prick, which make me not want to listen to
> > him.
>
> So was Miles Davis. :-)
>
> So what?
>
You're the second person to mention Miles. I guess its all in personal
experience. He was nice sometimes, and aloof at other times. Torme was
very consistant. If you don't like somebody its difficult to want to be
involved with them, even if you admit to their talent.
bk
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Bobby Knight <bkn...@verio.net> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:39E5EC6A...@verio.net...
Too bad for you, Bobby! You are missing a great singer.
Ulf
Bobby Knight
> > I worked with him too many times, and his personality made me not want
> > to hear him sing...even with all that talent.
> > bk
>
> Too bad for you, Bobby! You are missing a great singer.
I heard enough....:-)
bk
Philstein
"Ulf åbjÃrnsson" <aabj...@algonet.se> wrote:
>
> I love both Sinatra and Bennett, but I do not consider them jazz
singers -
> they are interpretors of the GAASB, and as I say above IMO they are
great
> singers with certain jazz elements.
Which seems to be equivalent to my "splash of Jazz colouring". I happen
to think you over-rate "improvisation" slightly as an element of Jazz,
important though it is. It's an interesting thing, what we expect music
to do for us, and what we gain from a sense of style. I consider style
to be the most important thing about any art, because it is the outcome
of a very deep connection between people and their relationship to the
world at large. A "wrong" style suggests a mis-match between a person
and his view of the world. (I'm thinking along the lines of what
constitutes "bad" music here). To me Sinatras later style is often, if
not always, linked to the music of sentimentality, cynicism, middle-aged
male bitterness and toupes, and Jazz is above all the music of
*innocent* (hence no need to be "hard-swinging") sexual excitement and
youth, happiness and goodwill (the original meaning of the word is a
clue), however much overlaid with "culture".
The style of Jazz is intimately connected to this origin, as music is
above all the art that speaks to the body first. This follows a
discussion with a work colleague yesterday about the "draining" of music
of what might be considered to be offensive elements (sexuality, open
display (that "novelty" music KBurns1569!) - neither of which is without
ambiguity in white culture) and the reduction of that style of music to
make it palatable to audiences not fully happy with the unadulterated
form. He brought up the difference between the genuine Latin music of
Carlos Santana, and the various watered-down types of Latin presented on
(British) Television & Radio. I see a similar move in the way that Jazz
has been expanded to include Latin, Salsa, Bossa Nova, free elements,
and most of all that addiction to vocals, where the music is subdued by
or subservient to "significant" lyrics. I've found over the years that
most people can't take Jazz straight, but require it to be sweetened and
blunted.
Just a thought.
Cheers,
Phil Wilson
Anglesey
N. Wales
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Leo Scanlon
wrote:
>You're the second person to mention Miles. I guess its all in personal
>experience. He was nice sometimes, and aloof at other times. Torme was
>very consistant. If you don't like somebody its difficult to want to be
>involved with them, even if you admit to their talent.
In my personal experience, Torme *was* consistent. Consistently a
great guy to talk to. I spent a little time doing just that during
intermissions and after shows. He was very approachable and a
terrific conversationalist. Always showed interest in what I was
talking about and made me feel very much at ease. In other words, he
was okay in my book.
Leo
bkn...@verio.net
wrote:
>In my personal experience, Torme *was* consistent. Consistently a
>great guy to talk to. I spent a little time doing just that during
>intermissions and after shows. He was very approachable and a
>terrific conversationalist. Always showed interest in what I was
>talking about and made me feel very much at ease. In other words, he
>was okay in my book.
I'm glad for you Leo, its good that you had that experience. Mine was
limited to tv and record sessions...maybe he acted differently there.
bk
Ulf Åbjörnsson
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:39e6e5f4...@tx.news.verio.net...
A journalist friend of mine got to be host and guide for two days for Mel
when he visited the Kristianstad Jazz Festival in 1983.
He said Mel was the nicest and most pleasant man you could imagine.
So maybe it is Bobby who is the exception?
Ulf
Bobby Knight
"Ulf Åbjörnsson" wrote:
>
> A journalist friend of mine got to be host and guide for two days for Mel
> when he visited the Kristianstad Jazz Festival in 1983.
>
> He said Mel was the nicest and most pleasant man you could imagine.
>
> So maybe it is Bobby who is the exception?
>
Nope.
bk
SteadyRiddimDis
jazz...@my-deja.com
You ask for some introduction!
So, I'm from The Netherlands and love the Jazz very much! Especially
the Jazz on trumpet, because I try to play the Jazz-trumpet and some
day (couple years later!) )I hope I can play something from my jazz-
legend Chet Baker! Most important thing is I enjoy listening and
playing Jazz. I already give my website address right down my previous
message. But I give it to you again:
address: http://members.home.nl/jazz-wereld/
Nice, if you pay a visit and give your notice about jazz in my
guestbook!
jazz-greetings,
René Leemans.
In article <giveus...@bolden.com>,
bu...@bolden.cyl wrote:
>
>
> jazz...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Did you ever hear Chet Baker sing(& play) for instance "My
Valentine"?
>
> No. Funny, eh?
>
> Now, Mr.Leemans, would you be so kind
> as to please introduce yourself:
>
> Where are you from?
> Do you have a website?
> Can we visit your website?
> What's the name of your website?
> What's the address of your website?
> Does you have a guestbook?
> Can we use your guestbook?
>
> > Please visit the website "Jazz World & Chet Baker" for suggestions!
> >
> > my website addres: http://members.home.nl/jazz-wereld/
> >
> > Listen to cd's-tracks? http://www.ubl.com/
> >
> > jazz-greetings,
> > RenŽ Leemans
>
>
SteadyRiddimDis
Thomas F Brown
Emerenziano Paronzini
Tchao
O Szekely
os
Ulf Åbjörnsson
O Szekely <osze...@singnet.com.sg> skrev i
diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:39FA1249...@singnet.com.sg...
> I go for Leon Thomas
>
> os
>
Ulf
Thomas F Brown
Ulf Åbjörnsson <aabj...@algonet.se> wrote:
>
>O Szekely <osze...@singnet.com.sg> skrev i
>diskussionsgruppsmeddelandet:39FA1249...@singnet.com.sg...
>> I go for Leon Thomas
>>
He's good when he's not yodeling. Check him out on that
Roland Kirk album. He was with Basie for a while, but
I've never heard any records of him with that band.
Jack Woker
> He's good when he's not yodeling. Check him out on that
> Roland Kirk album. He was with Basie for a while, but
> I've never heard any records of him with that band.
He was the vocalist with Basie the very first time I saw Basie, in
1964. He turns up only once on record with Basie - a rather forgettable
version of "Oh Pretty Woman" on "Pop Goes the Basie" on Reprise.
jack
Steve Solomon
---------Steve
John Monroe
> He's good when he's not yodeling.
Indeed, this is true for a surprising number of Jazz musicians.
John Monroe.
Awilda Rivera
Jordan, Mark Murphy, Jackie Paris, Arthur Prysock, Jimmy Rushing, Joe Williams,
Billy Eckstein, King Pleasure.
Awilda Rivera