Noam Elkies notation questions (was Re: Is there a sensible way to exchange charts & changes on the net?)

4 views
Skip to first unread message

al...@rev.net

unread,
Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
to
If a line break is allowed to fall inside a measure in Noam Elkies
notation, it becomes difficult to read the number of spaces at the end of
the line, which denote the length of the preceding note. What is the best
way to handle this? Should every measure be placed on a different line, so
that none are split? Or is there some safe line length that one can assume?

How are alternate endings marked? Is "2." at the beginning of a line clear
enough?

At the repeat, I'm inclined to use a colon. However, I understand this is
not standard.

Jazz notation of chords does not appear to be available. The "+" sign is
used for sharps, making it inappropriate for augmented triads. (This is a
bit confusing, as a "D+" in school is closer to "C", a "D-" closer to "F".)
How does one denote the chords in a lead sheet? Is it necessary to write
them out, as "Asus4flat69/C", "Bflatmaj7flat5flat9", "Caug9/Fsharp",
"Eflatmajflat9sharp11", or "Fsharphalfdim7/C"?

Should chord names be compressed as much as possible?

Mark Whippey <ma...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
 
>(In fact there are ways of shortening the symbols for the
>most long-winded of the common chords which we've been using
>amongst a circle of musical e-acquaintances I am part of. In
>order to save space when laying things out we use:

>  - for minor seventh (rather than "m7")
>  ^ for major seventh (nearest we can get to a triangle)
>  o for diminished
>  @ for m7b5 (half-diminished) (nearest we can get to a
>slashed circle or phi)
>  -^ for minor with major seventh (tonic minor)


And where should the harmony appear in relation to the melody? I'm inclined
to place it in parentheses before the melodic note on the same beat. It
won't fit on another line, because two chords in a measure would be wider
than the melody.
 
--Spud DuBoise
____
Music of Sasa Quixote at <http://www.rev.net/~aloe/music/sq.html>

Dr.Matt

unread,
Aug 24, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/24/99
to
Poor Noam probably isn't reading this thread. When rhythmic division is
unclear, he usually suggests a second line showing the beats and pulses.
But his notation was never intended to go too far beyond simple musical
examples, so if you have to invent a new component of the notation in order
to extend it, just make sure you can read your own notation fairly fluently...
then post a legend with your example..


--
Matt Fields, DMA http://listen.to/mattaj TwelveToneToyBox http://start.at/tttb
"The syntax of the Now statement is Now." --Microsoft 'enlightenment'
For spammers: http://e-scrub.com/cgi-bin/wpoison/wpoison.cgi
CD "Kabala", MMC 2087, distributed via your favorite vendors by 1999

Marc Sabatella

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
In article <7ptnj6$j00$1...@ffx2nh5.news.uu.net>, al...@rev.net wrote:

>Jazz notation of chords does not appear to be available. The "+" sign is
>used for sharps, making it inappropriate for augmented triads. (This is a
>bit confusing, as a "D+" in school is closer to "C", a "D-" closer to "F".)
>How does one denote the chords in a lead sheet? Is it necessary to write
>them out, as "Asus4flat69/C", "Bflatmaj7flat5flat9", "Caug9/Fsharp",
>"Eflatmajflat9sharp11", or "Fsharphalfdim7/C"?

I know nothing of Elkies' notation, but am confused by the comments
above. There are many styles of chord notation in jazz, and not all of
them use the "+" sign. I personally don't use it at all. I use "#" to
indicate sharps, and in particular, #5 to indicate an augmented triad.

--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com

Check out my latest CD, "Second Course"
Available on Cadence Jazz Records
Also "A Jazz Improvisation Primer", Scores, & More:
http://www.outsideshore.com/

Dave Webber

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to

Marc Sabatella wrote in message ...

>>Jazz notation of chords does not appear to be available. The "+" sign is
>>used for sharps, making it inappropriate for augmented triads. (This is a
>>bit confusing, as a "D+" in school is closer to "C", a "D-" closer to
"F".)
>>How does one denote the chords in a lead sheet? Is it necessary to write
>>them out, as "Asus4flat69/C", "Bflatmaj7flat5flat9", "Caug9/Fsharp",
>>"Eflatmajflat9sharp11", or "Fsharphalfdim7/C"?
>
>I know nothing of Elkies' notation, but am confused by the comments
>above. There are many styles of chord notation in jazz, and not all of
>them use the "+" sign. I personally don't use it at all. I use "#" to
>indicate sharps, and in particular, #5 to indicate an augmented triad.

D+ is a very common notation for Daug (D F# A#) though - although I can't
see in what way this might be "closer to C" (CEG).

D7+5 is often used in exactly the same way as D7#5.

While we're at it - you also often see D^7 (where by ^ I mean an upward
pointing triangle with a base - like a greek capital delta) to mean Dmaj7.
Is this a peculiar jazzer's notation or does it have wider acceptance and is
only absent from the newsgroups because of ASCII problems?

Dave
Dave Webber
Author of MOZART the Music Processor for Windows - http://www.mozart.co.uk
Member of the Association of Shareware Professionals
http://asp-shareware.org
Member of the North Cheshire Concert Band http://members.aol.com/northchesh

Samuel Hogarth

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
At 08:14:47 on Wed, 25 Aug 1999, our lives were enlightened by the words
of Dave Webber, as follows:

>D+ is a very common notation for Daug (D F# A#) though - although I can't
>see in what way this might be "closer to C" (CEG).
>
>D7+5 is often used in exactly the same way as D7#5.

I use D+7. It seems more logical; if
D7 is what you get when you add a seventh to the triad of D, and
Dm7 " Dm, then
D+7 " D+.


>
>While we're at it - you also often see D^7 (where by ^ I mean an upward
>pointing triangle with a base - like a greek capital delta) to mean Dmaj7.
>Is this a peculiar jazzer's notation or does it have wider acceptance and is
>only absent from the newsgroups because of ASCII problems?

It does have wide acceptance, but AFAIK only in jazz, as D^ is usually
taken to mean Dmaj7 on its own without the additional "7" and so using
it in more triad-based music can lead to confusion.

--------------
Samuel Hogarth

'Wake up! You're just having a nightmare - of course, we are still in hell'
(to reply, replace 'up' with 'down')

For sale: Acorn Computer with free software SIBELIUS 6, +graphics
program worth £100, +sequencer. Specification: 36MB RAM, 1.2Gb HDD,
233MHz processor. Price £950. E-mail samuel [AT] lansdown.demon.co.uk.

Albert Silverman

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
In article <935567618.129.3....@news.demon.co.uk>,

Dave Webber <da...@musical.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>Marc Sabatella wrote in message ...
>
>>>Jazz notation of chords does not appear to be available. The "+" sign is
>>>used for sharps, making it inappropriate for augmented triads. (This is a
>>>bit confusing, as a "D+" in school is closer to "C", a "D-" closer to
>"F".)
>>>How does one denote the chords in a lead sheet? Is it necessary to write
>>>them out, as "Asus4flat69/C", "Bflatmaj7flat5flat9", "Caug9/Fsharp",
>>>"Eflatmajflat9sharp11", or "Fsharphalfdim7/C"?
>>
>>I know nothing of Elkies' notation, but am confused by the comments
>>above. There are many styles of chord notation in jazz, and not all of
>>them use the "+" sign. I personally don't use it at all. I use "#" to
>>indicate sharps, and in particular, #5 to indicate an augmented triad.
>
>D+ is a very common notation for Daug (D F# A#) though - although I can't
>see in what way this might be "closer to C" (CEG).
>
>D7+5 is often used in exactly the same way as D7#5.
>
>While we're at it - you also often see D^7 (where by ^ I mean an upward
>pointing triangle with a base - like a greek capital delta) to mean Dmaj7.
>Is this a peculiar jazzer's notation or does it have wider acceptance and is
>only absent from the newsgroups because of ASCII problems?

Still trying to figure it all out, Dave?

Albert Silverman
(Al is in Wonderland!)
where those that think they know don't!

>
>Dave
>Dave Webber
>Author of MOZART the Music Processor for Windows - http://www.mozart.co.uk
>Member of the Association of Shareware Professionals
>http://asp-shareware.org
>Member of the North Cheshire Concert Band http://members.aol.com/northchesh
>
>
>
>


--

Albert Silverman

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to
In article <cIjIVEAwR$w3I...@lansdown.demon.co.uk>,

Samuel Hogarth <sam...@lansup.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>At 08:14:47 on Wed, 25 Aug 1999, our lives were enlightened by the words
>of Dave Webber, as follows:
>>D+ is a very common notation for Daug (D F# A#) though - although I can't
>>see in what way this might be "closer to C" (CEG).
>>
>>D7+5 is often used in exactly the same way as D7#5.
>
>I use D+7. It seems more logical; if
>D7 is what you get when you add a seventh to the triad of D, and
>Dm7 " Dm, then
>D+7 " D+.
>>
>>While we're at it - you also often see D^7 (where by ^ I mean an upward
>>pointing triangle with a base - like a greek capital delta) to mean Dmaj7.
>>Is this a peculiar jazzer's notation or does it have wider acceptance and is
>>only absent from the newsgroups because of ASCII problems?
>
>It does have wide acceptance, but AFAIK only in jazz, as D^ is usually
>taken to mean Dmaj7 on its own without the additional "7" and so using
>it in more triad-based music can lead to confusion.

Confusion?

Surely you must be kidding!

Nothing like that around when it comes to chord notation.

Albert Silverman
(Al is in Wonderland!)

where confusion rains


>
>--------------
>Samuel Hogarth
>
>'Wake up! You're just having a nightmare - of course, we are still in hell'
>(to reply, replace 'up' with 'down')
>
>For sale: Acorn Computer with free software SIBELIUS 6, +graphics
>program worth £100, +sequencer. Specification: 36MB RAM, 1.2Gb HDD,
>233MHz processor. Price £950. E-mail samuel [AT] lansdown.demon.co.uk.


--

Dave Webber

unread,
Aug 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/25/99
to

Albert Silverman wrote in message <7q14dc$b...@dfw-ixnews15.ix.netcom.com>...

>Still trying to figure it all out, Dave?


No - as far as being able to name standard chords is concerned, it's all
pretty straightforward and I learned how to do that over 30 years ago. I
hope _you're_ still enjoying trying to learn the names of the chords and
intervals though. Have you figured out the difference between diminished
sevenths and major sixths yet?

What is a little more challenging, and actually involves some art (rather
than just mechanical learning of names) is actually using the knowledge to
produce good music - in my case arrangements, but maybe one day
compositions.
But I know you're not interested in discussing music, so I won't bore you
with my problems.

Glenn Mandelkern

unread,
Aug 30, 1999, 3:00:00 AM8/30/99
to
FWIW,
the TRS-80 Color Computer had a PLAY statement letting
you specify musical pitches in ASCII. It used '-' for flats.
Sharps could be represented with '+' or '#'
(other BASIC's also had a PLAY statement.)

A C7 arpeggio would be shown as PLAY "C E G B-"

Interestingly, it understood E# and F- but not B# and C-.
It marked its octaves beginning on C.
It didn't understand double flats nor double sharps.

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glenn Mandelkern "Hee, hee, hee, hee!" -- Questor the Elf
gma...@netcom.com
San Jose, CA

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages