Quote from Paul Hindemith
MS
composer Paul Hindemith (born 1895, I don't know when he died), and thumbing
through it, I came across an interesting quote.
Not likely to ever happen, but a beautiful idea nonetheless:
----------------quote from Paul Hindemith------------
The time may perhaps return, when musical rules will be, as they were in
olden times, an essential part of the code of the physical sciences. It is
an alluring idea to think of a reorganization of scientific concepts on a
musical basis. Instead of a plan for the world's destruction by superbombs,
a blueprint of music theory would be drawn up to serve as a plan for a
tremendous reformation of the universe. Harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic
laws, as worked out in a most beautiful and exalted composition, would
transform the world's woes and falsehood into the ideal habitat for human
beings, who by the same process of musical ennoblement would have grown into
creatures worthy of such a paradise.
--------------------------end quote----------------
Dr.Matt
Well. We never said he wasn't a crackpot.
--
Matthew H. Fields http://www-personal.umich.edu/~fields
"Is there an uncello in the house?"
Coby Beck
" MS" <m...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:tt8qn9...@corp.supernews.com...
Whatever he was smokin'....get me some! : )
Coby
--
moc.dnopgib@101yboc
Kevin Dooley
fair or justified. What he was referring to in this
decontextualized quote is the fact that 18th and
19th century physicists made extensive use of
music terminology in their theories. For example,
one often hears the term "the music of the spheres"
to refer to stellar astrophysics. Similarly, in earlier
days scientists frequently would use words like
"harmonious" to describe systems that work
efficiently. Even today social scientists often talk
about harmonious social groups.
Hindemith is an extremely underappreciated
composer and pedagog. I found his series of
books on music theory and composition to be
the most useful I've ever seen. But, unlike many
pedagogs, he was also a brilliant composer.
He is largely forgotten today for political reasons.
I'd recommend "Mathis der Maler" and "Ludus
Tonalis" for people who are willing to overcome
their prejudices about him. I think that you'll
find that his music contains elements that have
been extensively copied by modern film composers
in particular.
Kevin Dooley
Dr.Matt
Kevin Dooley <kev...@manageablenetworks.com> wrote:
>Hindemith a crackpot? I don't think that's either
>fair or justified.
Subject to discussion.
> What he was referring to in this
>decontextualized quote is the fact that 18th and
>19th century physicists made extensive use of
>music terminology in their theories. For example,
>one often hears the term "the music of the spheres"
>to refer to stellar astrophysics. Similarly, in earlier
>days scientists frequently would use words like
>"harmonious" to describe systems that work
>efficiently. Even today social scientists often talk
>about harmonious social groups.
You seem to have confused the middle ages with the 18th and
19th centuries.
>
>Hindemith is an extremely underappreciated
>composer and pedagog. I found his series of
>books on music theory and composition to be
>the most useful I've ever seen. But, unlike many
>pedagogs, he was also a brilliant composer.
>He is largely forgotten today for political reasons.
Actually, he was The Composer That Everybody Must
Listen To for much of the 60's and 70's. I played
his unaccompanied cello sonata in the 70's. It seems
to me his star rose about as far as it could go on
the basis of his music, but then, Charlotte Church's
star has risen so far she's struggling to catch up,
so you never know.
>I'd recommend "Mathis der Maler" and "Ludus
>Tonalis" for people who are willing to overcome
>their prejudices about him. I think that you'll
>find that his music contains elements that have
>been extensively copied by modern film composers
>in particular.
Been there, done that. It's okay, but not my cup of tea.
Mike Stillman
: Hindemith is an extremely underappreciated
: composer and pedagog. I found his series of
: books on music theory and composition to be
: the most useful I've ever seen. But, unlike many
: pedagogs, he was also a brilliant composer.
: He is largely forgotten today for political reasons.
He might be regarded as the father of "ambient" and "industrial"
musics. In the 1920's, he wrote symphonies that used airplane
propellers and industrial sounds as musical instruments. Some
of these symphonies were actually performed, to the consternation
of much of the audience..
In his twilight years, he wrote an advice-to-the-lovelorn
column for a small-town California newspaper.
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
the Greeks thought they did?
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. http://dmreed.com/santeria_ifa_yoruba.htm is a
new page in progress. http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.
"Kevin Dooley" <kev...@manageablenetworks.com> wrote in message
news:3BD49C95...@manageablenetworks.com...
William H. Pittman
<kev...@manageablenetworks.com> wrote:
> Hindemith is an extremely underappreciated
> composer and pedagog. I found his series of
> books on music theory and composition to be
> the most useful I've ever seen. But, unlike many
> pedagogs, he was also a brilliant composer.
> He is largely forgotten today for political reasons.
Yes, and it's too bad. I have a pretty large collection of CD's of
Hindemith music that I enjoy immensely.
Why in tunket has his opera "The Long Christmas Dinner", written in the
1950's and based on a Thornton Wilder story, never been released on CD?
I saw a performance in Washington in the early 60's and was very
impressed.
William H. Pittman
William H. Pittman
Stillman) wrote:
> He might be regarded as the father of "ambient" and "industrial"
> musics. In the 1920's, he wrote symphonies that used airplane
> propellers and industrial sounds as musical instruments. Some
> of these symphonies were actually performed, to the consternation
> of much of the audience..
>
> In his twilight years, he wrote an advice-to-the-lovelorn
> column for a small-town California newspaper.
I think you must be thinking of someone else. George Antheil wrote a
"Ballet Mecanique" which may fit your description, at least somewhat. I
never heard anything about such a newspaper column.
William H. Pittman
Michael Wolf
Coby Beck <cb...@mercury.bc.ca> wrote in message
news:kj%A7.443084$8c3.77...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
Frank Zappa album (Lumpy Gravy?) let me just say that everything in the
universe comes from one element, which is a note. A single note. Atoms are
really vibrations, you know, which are merely extensions of THE BIG NOTE.
A single note. Everything.
;o)
Kevin Dooley
> You seem to have confused the middle ages with the 18th and
> 19th centuries.
Actually, no... when you were playing Hindemith's cello
sonata, I was getting a PhD in physics. I may be an
unreasonable pundit at music, but my scientific credentials
are a little more sound.
Steve Layton
"William H. Pittman" <willi...@global2000.net> wrote in message
news:williepitt-D187D...@news.mybizz.net...
Both the "Ballet Mechanique" and the advice column *are* true for Antheil,
not Hindemith. Antheil might be thought of as *one* of the "fathers" of
Industrial music by some today, though that would be a pretty simplistic
view (and Antheil himself wouldn't have very much of an idea of what they
meant). He couldn't be called, by any stretch of the imagination, a "father"
of the Ambient style; he's not even a distant relative of that one!
While it's true he wrote symphonies (6 of them), the vast part of his
post-"Mechanique" output was quite a bit more conservative and broadly
Romantic. He did a number of traditional film scores in Hollywood, along
with both the syndicated advice column and some few mystery novels.
His reputation from the work in the 1920's wasn't so much due to any great
musical insight or great craft; he was more or less a not-too-talented kid
who happened to be in the right place at the right time and know a couple
bigger people (mostly non-musical), and was just brash enough to push a
couple buttons nobody else had quite gotten to yet. It was enough to get
him a little notoriety, but their was little in the music that was deeply
challenging or interesting for other musicians and composers. The "radical"
ideas of those few early works weren't so much his own, as rather what was
already generally in the air in Paris for some time before.
--
Steve Layton
http://www.niwo.com/
http://artist.amazon.com/stevelayton
Dr.Matt
Dr.Matt
Matthew Bradley
things, then you will most likely have been "trained" over the years to react in
certain ways. For example, a raga might not mean anything to the average
American, and an Indian peasant wouldn't necessarily know what to make of an
Aeolian scale.
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
music) that relates you to some experience, there will probably be emotional
content as well.
but many national anthems including non-European anthems seem similar in
"tone".
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. http://dmreed.com/santeria_ifa_yoruba.htm is a
new page in progress. http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.
"Matthew Bradley" <hrss...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3BD4B5B3...@yahoo.com...
Warren Senders
>American, and an Indian peasant wouldn't necessarily know what to make of
>an Aeolian scale.
Note, however, that countless Hindustani ragas have
tonal material corresponding to the various diatonic modes,
although differing in their stipulated melodic motions.
There are at least fifteen ragas which come immediately
to my mind as corresponding to the diatonic major scale
alone, and almost as many for Aeolian. If you do improvisations
in Aeolian for an Indian musician, they'll be likely to say something
along the lines of "you are mixing up the ragas Darbari
Kanada, Jaunpuri and Sindhi Bhairavi. Why?" The only one of
the diatonic modes to find no representation in Hindustani
tradition is (surprise!) Locrian.
>> is there any evidence that the various scales affect people somewhat
>> like
>> the Greeks thought they did?
The evidence is sketchy and highly culturally biased. Manfred
Clynes, however, did some interesting work with correlations
between melodic *shape* and emotional connotation. He
claimed to have found some statistically significant relationships,
but I no longer have his book ("Sentics") and can't look at
his data. It's been over twenty years, so I can't say for
sure. Clynes was and is a highly respected scholar, though,
so it's relatively unlikely that he was just blowing smoke.
Cheers,
Warren Senders
Peter T. Daniels
>
> In finding an old copy I had of the book "A Composer's World", by German
> composer Paul Hindemith (born 1895, I don't know when he died), and thumbing
Something like November 25, 1963 -- the requiem he wrote for FDR, *When
Lilacs Last in the Dooryard Bloom'd*, was recorded in memory of both him
and JFK shortly thereafter.
(Sessions also wrote a requiem on Whitman's text.)
> through it, I came across an interesting quote.
>
> Not likely to ever happen, but a beautiful idea nonetheless:
>
> ----------------quote from Paul Hindemith------------
>
> The time may perhaps return, when musical rules will be, as they were in
> olden times, an essential part of the code of the physical sciences. It is
> an alluring idea to think of a reorganization of scientific concepts on a
> musical basis. Instead of a plan for the world's destruction by superbombs,
> a blueprint of music theory would be drawn up to serve as a plan for a
> tremendous reformation of the universe. Harmonic, melodic, and rhythmic
> laws, as worked out in a most beautiful and exalted composition, would
> transform the world's woes and falsehood into the ideal habitat for human
> beings, who by the same process of musical ennoblement would have grown into
> creatures worthy of such a paradise.
>
> --------------------------end quote----------------
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
Dan Seriff
> MS wrote:
>>
>> In finding an old copy I had of the book "A Composer's World", by German
>> composer Paul Hindemith (born 1895, I don't know when he died), and thumbing
>
> Something like November 25, 1963
December 28, same year, in Frankfurt. Born November 16, 1895 in Hanau.
Daniel Seriff
micro...@sericap.com
http://members.tripod.com/microtonal
Honesty means never having to say "Please don't flush me down the toilet!"
- Bob the Dinosaur
When the ratings go up, it's like the whole world is made of donuts.
- Brak
Jeff Beer
news:20011022223727...@mb-mr.aol.com...
> >For example, a raga might not mean anything to the average
> >American, and an Indian peasant wouldn't necessarily know what to make of
> >an Aeolian scale.
>
> the diatonic modes to find no representation in Hindustani
> tradition is (surprise!) Locrian.
Although they do more in some of their projects with Westerners. If I
recall correctly, Pran Nath's piece with
the Kronos quartet uses 11 pitches.
> >> is there any evidence that the various scales affect people somewhat
> >> like
> >> the Greeks thought they did?
>
> The evidence is sketchy and highly culturally biased. Manfred
> Clynes, however, did some interesting work with correlations
> between melodic *shape* and emotional connotation. He
> claimed to have found some statistically significant relationships,
> but I no longer have his book ("Sentics") and can't look at
> his data. It's been over twenty years, so I can't say for
> sure. Clynes was and is a highly respected scholar, though,
> so it's relatively unlikely that he was just blowing smoke.
I remember when Clynes introduced Sentics, but that theory seems to have
lost steam. Since that time, I have never heard anything about Sentics from
Clynes and it doesn't appear to have been taken up by many other
researchers. From Clynes, I did see an interesting paper on micro
variations in pulse and he has authored a software package called
SuperConductor which looks interesting. If you are interested in the Sentics
book or any of his other works, they are discussed on his web page:
http://www.superconductor.com/clynes/default.htm
As for Hindemith, I have been reading his book "The Craft Of Musical
Composition" and make these comments:
As much as he would like to have universal laws govern music, he observes:
"When even the man of the lowest level of civilization hears the interval of
an octave, he will feel that the upper note is the higher image of the
lower. Accordingly, in all known tonal systems, the basic scale-patterns,
with few exceptions, fill in the space between two tones an octave apart.
After the octave, the next fixed point to be felt is the fifth. But the
conception of this interval as something fixed and unchangeable is for the
untrained ear a more difficult matter".
So if someone as rigorous as Hindemith makes that statement, where does it
leave all the "universality" projects?
Hindemidth also built a scale on the overtone series, and cautioned against
the usefulness of anything higher than the 7th overtone, to which Harry
Partch said the something to the effect: What a wimp!
Finally, Hindemith begins his book with this interesting quotation:
"Perhaps some will wonder at my undertaking to write about music, when
there are at hand opinions of so many excellent men who have written
learnedly and sufficiently about it, and particularly at my doing so at a
time when Music has become, an almost arbitrary matter, and composers will
no longer be bound by laws and rules, but avoid the names of School and Law
as they would Death itself..."
This was written by the great rec.music.bluenote troll named Johann Joseph
Fux in the forward to his "Gradus and Parnassum" in 1725.
Jeff
Nina
fresh topics :) Where _are_ Eddie, Songoman, Curtis and Pablo? Must I be
unfaithful to their memories and now look to crossposted rivalries for
excitement??
--
-Te mando señales de humo como un fiel apache
pero no comprendes el truco y se pierde en el aire-
www.knology.net/~thatgirl
"Michael Wolf" <wolf...@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
news:HX1B7.79156$WW.40...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Warren Senders
>> the diatonic modes to find no representation in Hindustani
>> tradition is (surprise!) Locrian.
>Although they do more in some of their projects with Westerners. >If I recall
correctly, Pran Nath's piece with
>the Kronos quartet uses 11 pitches.
There are many Hindustani ragas which use more than
seven or eight pitches. Some (for example, raga
Basant Bahar, a compound of two popular melodic
structures) use all 12 chromatic intervals. All I
said was that *of the diatonic modes*, Locrian is not
found in Hindustani music. Hindustani theory
postulates ten basic generative scales (called
"thaat-s", meaning "structures"), of which
six correspond to the diatonic modes of western
music (minus locrian). The other four scales have
a variety of interesting intervals; augmented
seconds are common. From each of these generative
scales, dozens of ragas can be "extracted" using
a variety of procedures. Combinations of ragas
then yield so-called "jod" (lit. "pair") ragas, in which
part of one is attached to part of another.
Note, however, that Hindustani music theory is an
after-the-fact exercise. Most practicing musicians
in India have very little use for theory on a day-to-day
basis.
Warren Senders
William H. Pittman
<dal...@speakeasy.org> wrote:
> Both the "Ballet Mechanique" and the advice column *are* true for
> Antheil,
> not Hindemith.
Given what else you said about Antheil, I consider the original poster
to have delivered a gross insult to Hindemith by attributing the Antheil
stuff to him. :-(
William H. Pittman
sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
: "Dr.Matt" wrote:
I'd be interested in knowing about which 18th and 19th century astronomers
had any interest in the "music of the spheres." I can't think of anyone
post-Kepler who might have taken that kind of stuff particularly seriously.
Or did astronomers of the 18th and 19th centuries actually think that
the Bode's [sic] Law meant that the planets were really making pleasant
music as they rotated on their crystal spheres?
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"You go on playing Bach your way, and I'll go on playing him *his* way."
-- Wanda Landowska
Mike Stillman
: In article <9r274q$gud$1...@gail.ripco.com>, mik...@ripco.com (Mike
You're absolutely right. I was thinking of Antheil.
Antheil's newspaper column was mentioned in William Shirer's memoirs.
John Harrington
Agreed. Antheil's music evinces no sense of beauty or taste, as I
understand them.
J
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
perspective remember that Newton was also an alchemist and many of who we
now call astronomers were also astrologers. And remember that the theory of
"ether" or "aether" was a commonly held "scientific" belief. And even today
scientific "facts" are often in dispute, i.e., the speed of light may not be
the maximum speed attainable.
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. http://dmreed.com/santeria_ifa_yoruba.htm is a
new page in progress. http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.
<sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il> wrote in message
news:9r3u89$hep$1...@news.huji.ac.il...
sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il
: I don't know about the "music of the spheres" belief but to keep things in
: perspective remember that Newton was also an alchemist and many of who we
: now call astronomers were also astrologers.
Newton did some bizarre stuff, but if he thought there was any reality
to the the Music of the Spheres, that would come as news to me (plus,
he did most of his best work in the 17th century, not the 18th, but that's
a minor point, I think).
Garamwkcr
>There are many Hindustani ragas which use more than
>seven or eight pitches. Some (for example, raga
>Basant Bahar, a compound of two popular melodic
>structures) use all 12 chromatic intervals.
Warren--
Articulate and thoughtful comments as always. But I was under the impression
you were going back to work, per your recent comments in RMIC (grin)...
Anastasia
mike
i'm noticing that this discussion on history of science seems to lack a
certain focus. like, to play your game, richard, we wouldn't even know that
you ate breakfast or had an opinion on the intafada, only reading your
posts. which is ok, unless you're writing a bio on newton? better look at
I.B.C. again.
MS
"Nina" <that...@removeknology.net> wrote in message
news:K2dB7.11993$Z2.17...@e420r-atl2.usenetserver.com...
> cool, now that we have exhausted all our Topics To Squabble over we get
> fresh topics :) Where _are_ Eddie, Songoman, Curtis and Pablo? Must I be
> unfaithful to their memories and now look to crossposted rivalries for
> excitement??
Sorry, I had no idea this topic would become a squabble. Just an interesting
quote I came across, a beautiful idea, although not very realistic. I
thought it might be of interest to more than only Latin music fans, but
classical and jazz fans as well, so i posted it to three groups.
Well, on Usenet, I guess anything can turn into a squabble!
Nina
--
-Te mando señales de humo como un fiel apache
pero no comprendes el truco y se pierde en el aire-
" MS" <m...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ttbff0b...@corp.supernews.com...
Jeff Beer
"Warren Senders" <war...@aol.comqwerty> wrote in message
> > The only one of
> >> the diatonic modes to find no representation in Hindustani
> >> tradition is (surprise!) Locrian.
>
> >Although they do more in some of their projects with Westerners. >If I
recall
> correctly, Pran Nath's piece with
> >the Kronos quartet uses 11 pitches.
>
> There are many Hindustani ragas which use more than
> seven or eight pitches. Some (for example, raga
> Basant Bahar, a compound of two popular melodic
> structures) use all 12 chromatic intervals. All I
> said was that *of the diatonic modes*, Locrian is not
> found in Hindustani music. Hindustani theory
Are there any recordings of this 12 tone raga?
Thanks, Jeff
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
news:9r451n$kbv$4...@news.huji.ac.il...
> In rec.music.classical "Dennis M. Reed \"Califa\"" <dmr...@home.com>
wrote:
>
> : I don't know about the "music of the spheres" belief but to keep things
in
> : perspective remember that Newton was also an alchemist and many of who
we
> : now call astronomers were also astrologers.
>
> Newton did some bizarre stuff, but if he thought there was any reality
> to the the Music of the Spheres, that would come as news to me (plus,
> he did most of his best work in the 17th century, not the 18th, but that's
> a minor point, I think).
>
possibly astrological) works? if I remember correctly they had been
suppressed for many years because the scientific community did not want
anyone to know about them and they have recently become available.
BTW it is possible to function as a human being using more than one frame of
reality reference so Newton might well have used several, i.e., everyday
physical reality, alchemical reality, astrological reality, and maybe more.
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
OT
but consider what mystical/spiritual aspects and effects of Cuban folkloric
drumming have on many people and it may well be that there is or can be
something mystical/spiritual about music and rhythm
some including myself consider the "groove space" to be at least a
border-line mystical experience
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. http://dmreed.com/santeria_ifa_yoruba.htm is a
new page in progress. http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.
"Dennis M. Reed "Califa"" <dmr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:y0oB7.20948$SF4.8...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
Yambú
<that...@removeknology.net> wrote:
>...Where _are_ Eddie, Songoman, Curtis and Pablo?....
>
Buncha fence-sitting wimps. Not real men. Never had the balls to give
an opinion.
And where's Fab?
- Mike Doran
pablo
"Kevin Dooley" <kev...@manageablenetworks.com> wrote in message
news:3BD49C95...@manageablenetworks.com...
> Hindemith a crackpot? I don't think that's either
It sounds like he'd been a prime candidate had he lived in the 60s/70s. And
I do say that appreciatively.
...pablo y Mary Jane, jugando
pablo
"Yambú" <yam...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3bd5f1aa...@news.pinol1.sfba.home.com...
>
> Buncha fence-sitting wimps. Not real men. Never had the balls to give
> an opinion.
Hindmith is not a topic that invites me to follow. As a student, I went
listened to a concert where an ex-girfriend of mine was playing. "Kleine
Kammermusik" or so. It's invredible what men will do for sex.
The original quote suprises me somewhat given the very ultilitarian view he
professed on the creation of music, thinking of musicians as craftsmen and
not artists. And the "Uebermensch durch Musik" concept is more in tune with
the times than we probably assume. No doubt Hindemith was experimental,
musically and intellectually.
I often wondered whether "Mathis der Mahler" contains some elements of
clave, though.
...pablo
Steve Layton
"pablo" <pablo...@NOSPAMsimplyhombre.net> wrote in message
news:ttckaqp...@news.supernews.com...
Hindemith was right there in the European avant-garde when he was younger.
The stuff in the 1920s, especially: the "Kammermusik #1" (different from the
"Kleine Kammermusik") crams some stuff from Jazz in there, and has killer
accordian and hyper xylophone parts.
--
Steve Layton
http://www.niwo.com/
http://artist.amazon.com/stevelayton
Warren Senders
>> seven or eight pitches. Some (for example, raga
>> Basant Bahar, a compound of two popular melodic
>> structures) use all 12 chromatic intervals. All I
>> said was that *of the diatonic modes*, Locrian is not
>> found in Hindustani music. Hindustani theory
>
>Are there any recordings of this 12 tone raga?
Many. It's extremely popular. There are also
Hindi film songs which use it; in fact there is
an old Hindi film titled "Basant Bahar" which has
excellent music. Try checking out www.khazana.com
or www.neelamav.com -- both have good selections
of Hindustani music, and you should be able to
search by raga name.
If you want specific advice as to what is a good
recording, you might wish to post an inquiry on
rec.music.indian.classical and see what results.
Warren Senders
MS
"pablo" <pablo...@NOSPAMsimplyhombre.net> wrote in message
> The original quote suprises me somewhat given the very ultilitarian view
he
> professed on the creation of music, thinking of musicians as craftsmen and
> not artists.
That certainly isn't the view he professed in this book. I'll proffer here
another quote from the book, page 126:
-------------------------(page 126, "A Composer's World", Paul Hindemith,
pub. 1952)-----
One shows how denaturized an art can become once it is made a part of an
industrial production system totally inhuman and dictatorial. In Hollywood
they keep composers and arrangers in little booths provided with staff paper
and piano, and here on the assembly-line music is produced in which all the
normal virtues that are part and parcel of the composer's
profession--imagination, enthusiasm, original talent, are just so many
factors hindering industrial production. Versatile mediocrity is the
password for admission to these temples of streamlined utility, abnegation
of any individuality the condition for success. The musician who submits to
this life of a musical slave can hardly be blamed. The fact that he is able
to sell his abilities to exclusively industrial purposes shows his low
artistic value anyway, and usually he enters the gilded porticos of his job
fully conscious of the warning lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'entrate, in
this case abandoning the hope of ever returning to a more reasonable kind of
music. The few exceptional individuals who try to reconcile their job with
their former ideals by writing long-haired music in their spare time,
confirm by their notorious ineffectiveness the old adage that no man can
serve two masters.
The other most despicable form of technical and stylistic degradation in
music is practiced in totalitarian countries. If, with the capitalistic
misuse of music aforementioned, our art was deprived of its artistic
dignity, at least it was still treated as music. With our omnipotent and
omniscient dictators this superfluous consideration has been abandoned and
music has become nothing but a lubricant for their political machinery.
............................................................................
..............................
etc., etc., etc.
MS
"pablo" <pablo...@NOSPAMsimplyhombre.net> wrote in message
> The original quote suprises me somewhat given the very ultilitarian view
he
> professed on the creation of music, thinking of musicians as craftsmen and
> not artists.
Now I recall a word he coined, which might be where you got the idea above.
The term is "Gebrauchsmusik", which translated would mean something like
"music for use".
I remember the term from music school, but don't remember anything more
about it, what he meant by the term, etc. Perhaps someone here knowledgeable
about it could explain.
By "music for use", it's pretty clear from things he wrote in the book I
cited, he did not mean for "use" by commercial interests, or "use" by
political interests. Perhaps he meant for "use" by intelligent advanced
serious amateur musicians. In other words, music for these serious advanced
amateurs, rather than for professionals.
In thumbing through the book I cited, I don't see the term at all. The book
was written when he lived in the US, and I think that term was coined many
years earlier, and he might have dropped the idea by then.
Steve Layton
>
>
> Now I recall a word he coined, which might be where you got the idea
above.
>
> The term is "Gebrauchsmusik", which translated would mean something like
> "music for use".
> I remember the term from music school, but don't remember anything more
> about it, what he meant by the term, etc. Perhaps someone here
knowledgeable
> about it could explain.
> By "music for use", it's pretty clear from things he wrote in the book I
> cited, he did not mean for "use" by commercial interests, or "use" by
> political interests. Perhaps he meant for "use" by intelligent advanced
> serious amateur musicians. In other words, music for these serious
advanced
> amateurs, rather than for professionals.
> In thumbing through the book I cited, I don't see the term at all. The
book
> was written when he lived in the US, and I think that term was coined many
> years earlier, and he might have dropped the idea by then.
It was used that way by Hindemith (and Kurt Weill); it was an idea in
Germany in the 20s and 30s, to make some music for "the rest of us" to play;
solid and attractive, but that you didn't have to be Paganini or Liszt to
play it, and that didn't pretend to be the most supreme or deep stuff ever
written (maybe there's a little of the Bauhaus idea there...). Hindemith
wrote sonatas for just about every instrument around, even some of the
really offbeat ones, just to give people something both good and useful to
play, and to give the "guy on the street" a chance for both thinking and
pleasure. He took just as much care and pride in these pieces as in his
bigger "concert hall" stuff. By the time he wrote his book in 1951 he'd
disowned the word, mostly because of all the misunderstanding and derision
it caused in both academics and "artists", and because it wasn't important
what you called it; just that it was there, and he'd done his part.