Overrated: Oscar Peterson
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu
In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
-Nils
Lindel Holden
As marc sabatella attempted to say, we are not slamming miles. just saying
that some fans think everything is great and cant accept anything less than that which
would mean he is "overrated" by his fans.
But I guess fan is short for fanatic, and anything from a fan would tend to overrate an artist.
I like Oscar Peterson but wouldn`t put him in the top ten. Maybe top 20. He seemed to bring a
classic pianist approach to music and was from the Nat King Cole school. I wouldn't say he made any great
composing or stylistic contributions to jazz. He was a good musician and I enjoy his music though.
I think the overrated miles discussion was justified, it's not necessary to find an artist du jour to slam
just to get even.
--
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lindel holden
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Douglas Crowell
: How about we quit slamming Miles and start slamming Oscar?
: In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
: -Nils
It's tempting to say that because he uses so many notes. But no. That
man swings like crazy, check out stan Getz and The Oscar Peterson Trio for
the proof IMHO. Also, listen on his albums to the crazy bass lines he makes
with his left hand. Listen to the albums of him with no rhythm section. He
doesn't need one, he's got a whole band in his left hand. He's technically
great and original. I love him.
Doug Crowell
ADAM BENJAMIN SCHNEIT
: That
: man swings like crazy, check out stan Getz and The Oscar Peterson Trio for
: the proof IMHO.
I agree. That album just doesn't stop swinging. I don't see what people dislike
about the man. Sure, he uses tons of technique, but there aren't any wasted
notes. His lines may be complicated, but are always lyrical and always swing.
The compilation "The Will to Swing" has some of his best playing. I've never
heard him go overboard and just use technique for technique's sake. Must be on
some album I don't have.
PawprintBk
as an incredible technician and musically.
Let's hear see a list of your worst Oscar recordings!
Perry
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Mark Ladenson
> jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu wrote:
> : How about we quit slamming Miles and start slamming Oscar?
>
> : In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
>
> : -Nils
>
>
> man swings like crazy, check out stan Getz and The Oscar Peterson Trio for
> with his left hand. Listen to the albums of him with no rhythm section. He
> doesn't need one, he's got a whole band in his left hand. He's technically
> great and original. I love him.
> Doug Crowell
>
he was good virtually all the time. Since then it's more of a mixed bag;
still capable of that incredibly full-bodied, swing-like-mad, playing, but
often falling into a mild funk bag. I think it was a change for the worse
the day he replaced Herb Ellis with a drummer (absolutely no slam at
Ed Thigpen intended).
Mark Ladenson Lade...@pilot.msu.edu
Carl Dershem
: How about we quit slamming Miles and start slamming Oscar?
: In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
: -Nils
Well, for one, I don't believe in "slamming" anybody ... except maybe
Kenny G. As for Oscar not being musical or innovative enough, have you
ever heard his "Canadiana suite"? If you can sit there and tell me that
"Wheatland" isn't musical, then we're on completely different musical
wavelengths, and this conversation is already over.
ron santen / sarah livingstone
>
>jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu wrote:
>: How about we quit slamming Miles and start slamming Oscar?
>
Taht's funny - that is the same criticism that was used against Mozart - Oscar
Peterson is not over-rated nor is he a "jazz genius" but anyone who ever saw Oscar live
in his prime with Ray Brown, Herb Ellis and/or Ed Thigpen would realise that he is
an awe-inspiring musician with so may ideas and a technique that almost matches them.
Ron Santen
John Levine
>
> -Nils
To be gifted with the great technical ability that Oscar posesses
is a great tool to allow the use of his other great talent - to swing!
The use of technique alone maybe reason to call someone a technician,
but not Oscar.
Maybe it's because he's so frequently recorded, I understand thet he's the most recorded
jazz musician ever, that it's possible to become almost bored with the sheer volume of output.
I know that I sometimes think, God, not ANOTHER Peterson album! Don't we have enough?
But then it's always something fresh, and I am once again a believer.
GHaberman
Give it up...........or better yet.........blow up your computer
trash your CD collection...and give up music
and........
GET OFF THIS NET!!!!!!!!
Annette Boyle
: : In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
: : -Nils
: It's tempting to say that because he uses so many notes. But no. That
: man swings like crazy, check out stan Getz and The Oscar Peterson Trio for
: the proof IMHO. Also, listen on his albums to the crazy bass lines he makes
: with his left hand. Listen to the albums of him with no rhythm section. He
: doesn't need one, he's got a whole band in his left hand. He's technically
: great and original. I love him.
: Doug Crowell
i agree. i really get pissed when people slam musicians on the basis of
an over-abundance of technique. it isnt fair. yes, oscar plays a million
notes a minute...but like doug said, he does swing...and he's very
melodic. i'm not a pianist, but i wish i had just his left hand. i wish i
could do it....i dont care if musicians play technically perfect (or near
perfect). what i care about is how they showcase it. i hate these glammo
rock star speed god metal guitarists...but you cant hate oscar for
playing fast. :)
Philip F. Wight
start tearing down the pillars of the jazz world, probably because
they are so great and so unattainable.
Cheers,
Phil
----------------------
David J. Strauss
: Doug - that's a good tribute - very well put. It seems fashionable to
: they are so great and so unattainable.
Yes, of course. All opinion is the traumatic result of repressed memories.
Robert Gwynne
> In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
People also criticized Phineas Newborn for having too much technique, but
he swung. Oscar certainly swung his ass off in the fifties when he had Ray
Brown, Barney Kessel or Herb Ellis with him. In my estimation, listening
to all of the small groups at the time, the Oscar Peterson Trio out swung
any other small group going. I can see that there is a correlation
between swinging and technique up to a certain point: one has to have
enough technique to play what he/she hears and wants to pull off. Above
and beyond that, there is little correlation between swing and technique.
Count Basie could swing playing a minimum of notes; so could Monk; but,
neither had the technique of Oscar. Dizzy could swing with a lot of
notes. Miles, on the other hand, could swing with fewer notes and less
technique-- with a wad of gum in his mouth no less. Charlie Haden swings
but his technique sucks. David Holland, on the other hand also swings, but
with great technique.
Show me a demonstratable positive or negative correlation between swing
and technique, and I'll agree that you know what you are talking about;
otherwise, open up your ears and tap your toes, and go where the music
goes.
Bob Gwynne
nathanael jacobson
-------------------------------------------------------
Nathanael Jacobson
Student, Faculty of Sciences
University of Southern Queensland, Toowoomba, Australia
On 7 Apr 1995 jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu wrote:
> How about we quit slamming Miles and start slamming Oscar?
>
> In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
>
> -Nils
>
>
What is wrong with you!
Ain't you got no soul?
Lester22
technician....look at Art Tatum. Sure, techniacally amazing, but he could
also be melodic at the same time. It's the same thing with Peterson. Some
of the intricate things he plays swing like nothing else.
In jazz,
Bob
ADAM BENJAMIN SCHNEIT
: That
: man swings like crazy, check out stan Getz and The Oscar Peterson Trio for
: the proof IMHO.
I agree. That album just doesn't stop swinging. I don't see what people dislike
Philip F. Wight
start tearing down the pillars of the jazz world, probably because
they are so great and so unattainable.
Cheers,
Phil
----------------------
Douglas Crowell (dcro...@bu.edu) wrote: : jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu wrote:
: : How about we quit slamming Miles and start slamming Oscar?
: : In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
: : -Nils
: It's tempting to say that because he uses so many notes. But no. That
: man swings like crazy, check out stan Getz and The Oscar Peterson Trio for
nathanael jacobson
-------------------------------------------------------
Nathanael Jacobson
Student, Faculty of Sciences
University of Southern Queensland, Toowoomba, Australia
On 7 Apr 1995 jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu wrote:
> How about we quit slamming Miles and start slamming Oscar?
>
> In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
>
> -Nils
>
>
What is wrong with you!
Robert Gwynne
> In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
People also criticized Phineas Newborn for having too much technique, but
Carl Dershem
: How about we quit slamming Miles and start slamming Oscar?
: In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
Helge Gundersen
wrote:
> How about we quit slamming Miles and start slamming Oscar?
>
> In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
I think Oscar Peterson is an underrated player in the "hard core" jazz
community, since he often is severely put down there (here). He is not one
of the greatest, but few are. He is good enough. He is famous on a larger
scale, which few jazz musicians are. So you can't call him "overrated"
compared to those who are well-known only among hard core jazz fans. One
has to keep the proportions apart from each other: appreciation in jazz
and appreciation in music in general. We should be glad Oscar is famous in
general, even if a great many hard core jazz fans would agree that Bud
Powell, for instance, was an artist of greater depth.
Oscar has put out a lot of records, and all are not equally good. But many
seem to be quite good also after the 1950's, even if I haven't heard most
of his discs. I like "The London Concert" from 1978, co-billed by Louis
Bellson and John Heard. Those who think Oscar can only play fast (even if
he CAN play tastefully fast, too), should check out "I get along without
you very well" from that record -- one of the most reflective, lyrical
pieces of music I have ever heard. Oscar is able to play good in all
tempos and formats. (I don't think I'll subscribe to the guitar/drums idea
proposed earlier in this thread. What about "Night Train" with Thigpen on
board?) But not all his performances are good, of course. That one for
sure can say about Bud Powell, too.
I don't like "overrated" threads, so I hesitate when I take part in this.
I enjoy very much "underrated" threads, but from what I written above,
Oscar Peterson could just as much be considered underrated as overrated.
Even if I'm not a diehard Peterson fan.
------------------
Helge Gundersen (Oslo, Norway)
helge.g...@inl.uio.no
Marc Sabatella
> As marc sabatella attempted to say, we are not slamming miles. just saying
> that some fans think everything is great and cant accept anything less than that which
> would mean he is "overrated" by his fans.
> But I guess fan is short for fanatic, and anything from a fan would tend to overrate an artist.
My gut feel is that Oscar's most extreme fans overrate him even more than Miles
most extreme fans overrate Miles. But on the whole, Oscar is accused so much
of being a boring technician with nothing to say who wouldn't know the blues if
someone painted his eyeglasses, that I wouldn't be inclined to say he is as
overrated. On the other hand, he isn't nearly as important as Miles, so maybe
the fact that he tends to be held by pianists in as high esteem as everyone
else holds Miles means he is more overrated. Whatever.
As I have said before, it's all relative, and depends on who is doing the
rating. I have my own opinion of Oscar, which is considerably less than what
some of his fans think, and considerably more than some of his detractors
think. I don't see how the term "overrated" can have any meaning whatsoever
until we first establish what the generally held rating is, to compare our
personal opinion against.
--
Marc Sabatella
--
ma...@fc.hp.com
http://www.fortnet.org/~marc/
--
All opinions expressed herein are my personal ones
and do not necessarily reflect those of HP or anyone else.
John Sullivan
>jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu writes:
>>How about we quit slamming Miles and start slamming Oscar?
>>In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
Well, you're entitled to your own insane opinion.
Lord, you give them ears, but they can not hear.
John S
YoBruce
player with the wonderful restraint of Nat Cole. Every note Nat played
seemed to mean something (at least on his better recordings). I get a
kick out of listening to Oscar now and then, but I don't see him in the
same light as Cole.
Dan Given
>From: JSUL...@fhcrc.org (John Sullivan)
>Subject: Re: Overrated: Oscar Peterson
>Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 15:44:15
>John S
I think these "overrated musician" threads are a bit of a waste of time. All
it comes down to is whether or not people like some jazz icon. Personally, I
don't like Miles or Oscar Peterson, but know of a lot of people who do.
Obviously they would rate them higher than I do. But some of those people
also would consider someone like Braxton or Muhal Abrams overrated. It is all
a matter of taste.
I think the music community would be better served by discussions of under
recognized musicians. We all know enough about Miles and Oscar, but too many
people know nothing about up and coming players like Marty Ehrlich, Tom
Chapin, or Lisle Ellis.
Dan
Warren Smith
>How about we quit slamming Miles and start slamming Oscar?
>In my opinion he's a technician, not a musician. Any innovation there?
You have obviously been listening to the wrong records.
Get 'Night Train' and 'The Duke Ellington Songbook'.
Warren.
Luke Oldham
>he was good virtually all the time. Since then it's more of a mixed bag;
>still capable of that incredibly full-bodied, swing-like-mad, playing, but
>often falling into a mild funk bag. I think it was a change for the worse
>the day he replaced Herb Ellis with a drummer (absolutely no slam at
>Ed Thigpen intended).
> Mark Ladenson Lade...@pilot.msu.edu
Oscar didn't have a choice with Herb Ellis. Herb quit the band to over
come his drinking problem and get his life settled. Oscar didn't get rid of him really.
Luke
Member of the "Tenor Sax Players Take over The World Association".
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hot can be cool and cool can be hot, but hot or cool man, Jazz IS Jazz.
(Louis Armstrong)
Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.
Thomas F Brown
>
>People also criticized Phineas Newborn for having too much technique, but
>he swung. Oscar certainly swung his ass off in the fifties when he had Ray
>Brown, Barney Kessel or Herb Ellis with him. In my estimation, listening
>to all of the small groups at the time, the Oscar Peterson Trio out swung
>any other small group going. I can see that there is a correlation
>between swinging and technique up to a certain point: one has to have
>enough technique to play what he/she hears and wants to pull off. Above
>and beyond that, there is little correlation between swing and technique.
>Count Basie could swing playing a minimum of notes; so could Monk; but,
>neither had the technique of Oscar. Dizzy could swing with a lot of
>notes. Miles, on the other hand, could swing with fewer notes and less
>technique-- with a wad of gum in his mouth no less. Charlie Haden swings
>but his technique sucks. David Holland, on the other hand also swings, but
>with great technique.
>
>Show me a demonstratable positive or negative correlation between swing
>and technique, and I'll agree that you know what you are talking about;
>otherwise, open up your ears and tap your toes, and go where the music
>goes.
These are all valid observations, but I think you've set up a false
dichotomy here--swing is an integral part of jazz technique.
If you don't swing, you have a faulty technique. Hence there
is necessarily a positive correlation between swing and technique
as I define the two concepts.
Oscar's playing swings and demonstrates technical prowess but lacks
emotional depth IMO. No one has everything, but Oscar's certainly
got more than most.
Lindel Holden
music. Not sure but I bet Cole was an influence on peterson.
--
Disclaimer:
This message was created by me. The content does not
reflect the opinions of my employer. If anyone takes offense
at the content of this message contact me directly via e-mail at
lho...@ccmail.nswc.navy.mil.
lindel holden
l24t
nswc
dahlgren, va. 22448
(703) 663-7909
jacob...@msdisk.wustl.edu
> It seems fashionable to
> start tearing down the pillars of the jazz world, probably because
> they are so great and so unattainable.
And lots of other people seem to agree.
OK, let me back off, I started this thread and everyone so far agrees
that Oscar makes a lot of notes, but they are good notes, and boy, can
he swing.
The reason I posted the orignical cynicism was that Miles was getting a
tremendous amount of attention in the newsgroup for the electric post-BB
albums he did, mostly negative. People who like the cool and modal
periods seem to really hate the fusion and electric stuff that Miles did.
Mind you, I respect your opinions, but I completely disagree.
It is interesting that someone so completely vanilla as Oscar (OK, please
give me email as to albums to listen to if you disagree) is well-like
whereas someone who broke the mold and made some seriously controversial
ART, ie Miles, is "overrated." It is much easier to be a star if you
recycle other people's innovations, and I am speaking generally now, not
just in regard to Oscar Peterson. But if you mess with people's
conceptions of what music should be, you tend to generate a lot of heat.
My point of view is that if a particular artist does not evolve (ie
create forward progression in the genre) then he/she has ceased to make
art and has started to be a technician. It really does not have too
much to do with the number of notes, for example I think John
McLaughlin is a tremendous artist and his note per second ratio is
higher than almost anyone else's. He just has a tremendous amount of
vision.
From what I have heard (apparently not enough, OK) Oscar Peterson plays
some very melodic, swinging piano. He deserves credit for musicality
in that sense. He sounds "good." No need to have a person of the
month to bash, I was kind of trying to make a subtle point which I
thought might take off on its own with a small amount of catalysis.
I was wrong.
Thanks for the input,
Nils
Douglas Crowell
: Thanks for the input,
: Nils
Progression? Evolution? It don't mean a thing if it aint got that
swing.
Doug Crowell
PINKUS THE DOORMAN
So what of it...
Andreas Kurth
> Sure, he uses tons of technique, but there aren't any wasted notes.
There are IMHO. Of course he has his specific qualities concerning swing
and lyricism and the ability to accompany singers, but he is playing the
same patterns and phrases again and again. That's what I call wasted
notes.
Don't misunderstand me: I like Oscar very much and have most of his
recordings, but if I want to criticize any aspect of his music, it's the
above.
---
Andreas Kurth Mannheim 0621-7992130
Mark Andersen
[...]
>But on the whole, Oscar is accused so much
>of being a boring technician with nothing to say who wouldn't know the blues if
>someone painted his eyeglasses, that I wouldn't be inclined to say he is as
>overrated. On the other hand, he isn't nearly as important as Miles, so maybe
>the fact that he tends to be held by pianists in as high esteem as everyone
>else holds Miles means he is more overrated. Whatever.
I can't help playing statistician for a minute. The "mean opinion" about OP
may be lower than the "mean opinion" about Miles, but the variance in
people's opinions about OP seems to be much higher than the variance
in people's opinions about Miles.
OP has never changed the entire jazz landscape as Miles did, but that's
not to say he hasn't been a solid contributor to the jazz repertoire.
(Verifiably not as prolific as David Murray, though. Murray also seems to fit
into the "solid contributor" category.)
As for emotional depth: I hear a whole order of magnitude more emotional
range (not the same as depth, I guess) in his solo recordings than in his
ensemble work. But, this is just a personal opinion that may be based on a
non-representative sample of his ensemble work.
Dr. Mark Andersen voice: 505.646.8034
Department of Fishery and Wildlife Sciences email: mand...@nmsu.edu
New Mexico State University fax: 505.646.1281
Las Cruces, NM 88003-0003
Carl Dershem
: THIS WHOLE THREAD IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS
: Give it up...........or better yet.........blow up your computer
: trash your CD collection...and give up music
: and........
: GET OFF THIS NET!!!!!!!!
Who the hell do you think *you* are? "This" net, from someone on AOL?
Gimme a break! Either say something substantial, or shut up!
Trond Hanssen
This is pure curiosity, no criticism intended.
Could you please define "emotional depth"? I see this term used both
positivley and negativley all the time, but how anybody but the
performer can determine the emotional depth or lack thereof in what
he/she does, is beyond me.
Trond
--
Trond Hanssen tro...@oslonett.no
Rachel Z's No. 1 Fan!!!
Helge Gundersen
Hanssen) wrote:
> Could you please define "emotional depth"? I see this term used both
> positivley and negativley all the time, but how anybody but the
> performer can determine the emotional depth or lack thereof in what
> he/she does, is beyond me.
Excuse my crudeness, but if that is beyond you, it may be because there's
something wrong with your understanding. The performer hasn't any more say
on the emotional depth of what (s)he does than the listener. This is
elementary knowledge in the theory of art, be it literature, music, or
whatever. The work of some artists displays a greater emotional depth than
others -- some move the listener in a more rich way than others (and in
that way contribute to a better world to live in). If you have never
sensed that, you surely must have a very superficial personality.
jim daulton
prefer to leave the term 'technician' for someone who works on my PC.
jim daulton
Marc Sabatella
> These are all valid observations, but I think you've set up a false
> dichotomy here--swing is an integral part of jazz technique.
> If you don't swing, you have a faulty technique. Hence there
> is necessarily a positive correlation between swing and technique
> as I define the two concepts.
This is, of course, an extremely controversial claim, and subject to all sorts
of arguments about what defines "swing" and "jazz" (with the names Braxton,
Parker, Taylor, Tristano, and Brubeck likely to be brought up). I wouldn't *in
general* say that "swing", in the sense that most people mean it, is a
prerequisite for playing "jazz", in the sense I mean it. It's but one way to
do it.
However, in this context of playing "Oscar Peterson" style music, I agree it
would be lacking without the swing component.
Daniel J. Cray
his music and use of technique:
"I have exact peeves with certain jazz writers, no names. I believe
they pose as self-appointed discoverers who want more than anything
to say they saw the next new wave coming before anyone else. So they
patrol the fringes. They don't regard any music as having value unless
it's removed and utterly esoteric. Then they write and people
get curious. But audiences aren't dumb. No amount of publicity can force
audiences to accept music they don't like. . .I belive experiments belong in
the laboratory, not on the concert stage or bandstand. . .When I first began studying
music, I intended to play at the highest level. I apologize for
nothing."
Oscar Peterson
The Wall Street Journal
1/11/95
As for the idiot that posted earlier that Oscar has "no emotional depth"
get some ears. Listen to the track "Sandy's Blues" reissued in the box
set "Exclusively for My Friends" and tell me again that Oscar plays without
emotion. I was fortunate to have witnessed Oscar's incredible American debut after
his stroke at Ravinia last summer. Knowing that six months earlier he
had absolutely NO movement in his right hand made this concert a testement
to the emotional intensity and sensitivity that has always been a part
his music.
Daniel J. Cray
Northwestern University, Evanston, IL. USA
djc...@nwu.edu
Victor Eijkhout
> The work of some artists displays a greater emotional depth than
> others -- some move the listener in a more rich way than others (and in
> that way contribute to a better world to live in). If you have never
> sensed that, you surely must have a very superficial personality.
You know, I'm willing to bet that more weepy women have cried
over Liberace's schmaltz than jazz lovers over you-name-your-favourite-
deep-emoting-jazz-star.
Your argument is now reduced to you having to prove that your
experience is better than theirs :-)
--
Victor Eijkhout
405 Hilgard Ave ............................... Between 1980 and 1990, eleven
Department of Mathematics, UCLA ........ Americans were killed as a result of
Los Angeles CA 90024 ............... shaking vending machines which then fell
phone: +1 310 825 2173 / 9036 .......... on them. All of them were members of
home: +1 310 209 0068 ................. the US Armed Forces [Harper's Index]
http://www.math.ucla.edu/~eijkhout/
John Levine
This is only a discussion about a musician - not a threat to
national security!
Antonis Kyriazis
>
> Go home........there's no way you can claim OP is strictly a
> technician....look at Art Tatum. Sure, techniacally amazing, but he could
> also be melodic at the same time. It's the same thing with Peterson. Some
> of the intricate things he plays swing like nothing else.
>
> In jazz,
>
> Bob
During a live concert we noticed two things:
1. He masters a unique ability of building a very expressive
sound without using/moving the wrist - many Bach players would
be jealous!
2. The audience were overwhelmed by emotion.
/antonis
Antonis Kyriazis
Eric Baizer
tribute to his country, Canada. I think his playing is often restrained,
and the album embodies his talents as a composer and pianist, in both
ballads and up-tempo numbers. I am not Canadian, but the album moves
me. I guess "emotional depth" is in the eye of the beholder, but this
is the single album I would most recommend.
Mark Eisenman
Another great record is O.P. with Clark Terry (emarcy 818 840-2)
I think anybody who believes O.P. plays too much and too technically
needs to hear him in more of an accompanist's role.He can be quite
understated.Check him out with Ben Webster, Lester Young and
others.
Mark Eisenman
Luke Oldham
Jill Emily Solek <je...@darwin.clas.Virginia.EDU> wrote:
>I happen to be an OP fan and consider him both a very good
>musician AND 'technician.' What can't this man do?!
>
>His has such a diverse style -- that is his style is not
>definitive, if that makes any sense. You can listen to him on
>one tune and on another sound totally different. To me that is
>not a bad thing.
>
>Most musicians when you hear them you immediately know who it
>is. Not Oscar. He plays his way at any given moment. He
>plays in any format and any style at a very high calibre. Why
>should he be criticized for the variety in his playing or for
>playing so many notes. He plays fast because he can!!
>
>As far as him not being an emotional player, I think if you saw
>him perform, in photos, read anecdotes, stories -- whatever, you
>will find a man very serious and emotional towards his music.
>
>Look, no one dogged Art Tatum for playing fast or for not
>composing or anything else, does that make him un deserving of
>any praise?
I am also a great O.P. fan. He was the first jazz musician I heard play.
He is a very versitile pianist but I would have to disagree in not being to able
to identify him as a player in a song. He has a very distintive way of
constructing melodies and accompaniments. I can usually pick him out on most
records. His style however is very similar to that of Oliver Jones, perhaps
because they studied with the same teacher and played with each other, this can make it difficult sometimes.
It is interesting that you mention Art Tatum. One of the reasons O.P
plays with technique that is close to Tatums' is because for a long time Tatum
was O.P idol (for lack of a better word) and definitly O.P's fathers favorite
piano player. An interesting note on this. O.P.'s father only allowed O.P to quit high school and study music if he he became as good as or better than Tatum.
This up to others opinion's as to whether he did or not. Just an intersting notethat may relate his technical playing with his influences.
Luke
- What is a gentleman?
Someone who knows how to play the Trombone, but doesn't.
--
- The rain it raineth everyday on the Just and Unjust fellow, but mostly on
the Just because the Unjust took the Just's umbrella. (Unknown author)
Marc Sabatella
> In article <helge.gundersen-...@hfmac273.uio.no> helge.g...@inl.uio.no (Helge Gundersen) writes:
> > The work of some artists displays a greater emotional depth than
> > others -- some move the listener in a more rich way than others (and in
> > that way contribute to a better world to live in). If you have never
> > sensed that, you surely must have a very superficial personality.
> You know, I'm willing to bet that more weepy women have cried
> over Liberace's schmaltz than jazz lovers over you-name-your-favourite-
> deep-emoting-jazz-star.
> Your argument is now reduced to you having to prove that your
> experience is better than theirs :-)
I agree; I think Helge was overly simplistic (and harsh). I don't see how in
any objective sense one can claim a given artist has "greater emotional depth"
than another. At best, you can say some artist communicates *with you* better
than another. Kenny G by definition as a lot of emotional depth, but he
doesn't reach me with it. Wynton Marsalis and Oscar Peterson are accused by
many others of not having emotional depth, but they reach *me* a lot better
than some of the people that Wynton and Oscar are accused of copying.
These overrated threads are definitely becoming ridiculous; no one seems to
want to acknowledge the very personal nature of these issues, and instead act
as if there is some objective truth behind them.
Thomas F Brown
>
>Yes, of course. All opinion is the traumatic result of repressed memories.
Hmmm. I have been tormented lately by a recurring nightmare in which
I am chased by a fat old man with incredible chops.
Jill Emily Solek
musician AND 'technician.' What can't this man do?!
His has such a diverse style -- that is his style is not
definitive, if that makes any sense. You can listen to him on
one tune and on another sound totally different. To me that is
not a bad thing.
Most musicians when you hear them you immediately know who it
is. Not Oscar. He plays his way at any given moment. He
plays in any format and any style at a very high calibre. Why
should he be criticized for the variety in his playing or for
playing so many notes. He plays fast because he can!!
As far as him not being an emotional player, I think if you saw
him perform, in photos, read anecdotes, stories -- whatever, you
will find a man very serious and emotional towards his music.
Look, no one dogged Art Tatum for playing fast or for not
composing or anything else, does that make him un deserving of
any praise?
Get real people!
.
--
//// //// //// //// **********************************
| |/| |/| |/ | |/ * Jill Emily Solek *
__| |/| |/| |///| |/// * je...@darwin.clas.virginia.edu *
\____/ |__|/|_____||_____| **********************************
Trond Hanssen
helge.g...@inl.uio.no (Helge Gundersen) wrote:
> In article <EigYlC1I...@oslonett.no>, tro...@oslonett.no (Trond
> Hanssen) wrote:
>
>
> Excuse my crudeness, but if that is beyond you, it may be because there's
> something wrong with your understanding. The performer hasn't any more say
> on the emotional depth of what (s)he does than the listener.
Sorry this has taken so long, but with Easter and all...
Surely, what you're referring to is *your* perception of emotional
depth. I would think that this perception is not universal and varies
from person to person. Who's to say whose perception is "correct"?
> This is elementary knowledge in the theory of art, be it literature,
> music, or whatever. The work of some artists displays a greater
> emotional depth than others -- some move the listener in a more rich way
> than others (and in that way contribute to a better world to live in).
> If you have never sensed that, you surely must have a very superficial
> personality.
I think I understand what you mean, but who's to determine which artists
display emotional depth (or lack thereof)? If I was to say that John
Coltrane's playing lacks emotional depth (I'm not saying this!), would
that make me wrong? If so, why?
pez...@cdc835.cdc.polimi.it
being named jazz, must have three ingredients:
-Swing
-Blues
-Improvisation
I know that Wynton is too extremist in this statement, but in the story
of jazz music the elements he mentionned have been of primary importance
Now, in OP's music all of them are present, and uniformly distributed...
OP, off course, has not been as important as MIles in jazz revolutions
and evolutions, but he is one of the GREAT jazzmen who wasn't part
or creators of jazz 'schools' (like Bird, Miles, Coleman, Trane...),
because they didn't have emuls (right word??): just like Stan Getz,
Duke Ellington, Bix Beiderbecke....
Like Satchmo, OP is essentially an entertainer: he plays with joy
and he enjoys to play for audience... (miles often turned his
back on them...); nonetheless, his last works (the CDs on Telarc)
have been defined 'Introspective'.....
ObeliX.
P.S. Sorry for my English: it is under construction
*******************************************************************
___ __ ___ ________________________
/ \ | \| | |\ / ObeliX |VNA SALVS VICTIS |
/ \|__/|_ | | \/ aka |NVLLAM SALUTEM SPERARE|
\ /| \| | | /\ Nicola Giani ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
\___/ |__/|___|___|/ \ E-Mail: pez...@cdc700.cdc.polimi.it
*******************************************************************
William G. Sacks
: Now, in OP's music all of them are present, and uniformly distributed...
: OP, off course, has not been as important as MIles in jazz revolutions
: and evolutions, but he is one of the GREAT jazzmen who wasn't part
: or creators of jazz 'schools' (like Bird, Miles, Coleman, Trane...),
: because they didn't have emuls (right word??): just like Stan Getz,
: Duke Ellington, Bix Beiderbecke....
Not to digress too far from the subject, but I'm not sure what you mean
when you say that the Duke didn't have his emulators! Have you heard of a guy
named Charles Mingus? (Note that I'm not under any illusions about
Mingus' work being _reduceable_ to mere emulation- only that Ellington's
pervasive influence as a composer and arranger is so obvious...).
pez...@cdc835.cdc.polimi.it
Oscar Peterson, IMHO, is one of the best piano players in actvity by now.
I don't mean he is a technician (it sounds too much close to 'engineer')
simply, he plays his instrument in a better way then the others.
Of course he's got a perfect touch on the keyboard, and a very high
'technic', but not only.
He plays the blues like nobody else in modern jazz, and he HAS got that
swing (does it mean a thing :-) ? ). I think he is misappreciated because
he has never been an 'opinion leader' or a 'school chief' like Bird,
Trane, Miles... Just like Stan Getz, nobody plays like him because
nobody can do it.... (BTW OP is NOT a Tatum prosecutor!).
Flame me.
ObeliX
SidneyMan
.
He plays the blues like nobody else in modern jazz, and he HAS got that
Why flame somebody who's right? Of course, different musical schools are
like religion and politics for a lot of people. I say Oscar is a high
priest and a diplomat of the first rank. You could pick out his sound with
one ear from a block away, and he doesn't use gimmicks to get it. Which
seems to me to make him a helluva musician.
Sidn...@aol.com (Tom Ferguson)
Doug Robbins
>
>Oscar Peterson, IMHO, is one of the best piano players in actvity by now.
(stuff deleted)
.. (BTW OP is NOT a Tatum prosecutor!).
>
I don't think these characterisations are fair or accurate. He sound more like
Nat Cole on steroids to me!)
But what the hell is a "Tatum Prosecutor" ?
Doug Robbins (rob...@nr.infi.net)
James Atkinson
>
> Oscar Peterson, IMHO, is one of the best piano players in actvity by now.
> simply, he plays his instrument in a better way then the others.
> Of course he's got a perfect touch on the keyboard, and a very high
> 'technic', but not only.
> he has never been an 'opinion leader' or a 'school chief' like Bird,
> Trane, Miles... Just like Stan Getz, nobody plays like him because
>
> Flame me.
> ObeliX
>
>
Congrats to the writer of this post. First off, I must admit that I did
not see the original post, but from reading this response, can get what
the point must have been, and would like to second everything said above.
As a piano player myself who has gone through a jazz performance program
and studied almost every major pianist, past and present (I mention this
not to claim myself as an expert, but only to demonstrate that my opinion
might have some credibility), Peterson is very different from the commonly
applied term technician. He has the most phenomenal technique ever to
grace the jazz piano world, and uses it frequently (why shouldn't he!!!).
To claim that one with lots of technique is a technician is similar to
saying that one with lots of poise is a poison :) Check him out on his
solo albums with MPS, recorded in Germany in the 70's before judging him
on his pyrotechnics. Other albums prove him to be perhaps the most
swinging pianist in the last several decades, and his record as a sideman
(can you name a jazz star over forty years old who has NOT requested and consequently played with him?!) proves that those in the know-how do not
believe him to be "over-rated". One more thing: although Tatum may have
been a big influence, he was not the only influence, and to say that Oscar
has stolen the style implies millions of much worse things about the rest
of the jazz world, and how it has progressed over the years. If one goes
so far to suggest that their styles are congruent, I suggest obtaining at
least SOME musical knowledge, and perhaps looking into cleaning out their
ears. Not too much offense intended, but perhaps a wake-up call for the
ignorant.
James.
r.fle...@irl.cri.nz
>writes:
>> Oscar Peterson, IMHO, is one of the best piano players in actvity by now.
I'm sure not going to argue - but can someone point me at a current
discography of Oscar so I can mop up more of this Master muso?
Is there a ftp site perhaps?
Ross
AJT726
aj thompson