"ECM" Metheny vs "Geffen" Metheny
Brian & Angela Rhodes
I've noticed a lot of discussion about Pat lately. I've been a Metheny
fan for around 10 years, the first time I heard him was on Brecker's
first solo album. Then I went out and bought Still Life (Talking) and
have been hooked every sense. Lately, I've been discovering his ECM
records (mainly "Pat Metheny Group" "80/81" and "American Garage") and
there is a definite difference in style between these two record
companies. Don't get me wrong, I love them both and have most of his
records, but do you think the respective record companies have had
anything to do with his music?
BTW
I noticed that "Imaginary Day" is on the Warner Brothers label, anybody
know what's up with that?
Brian Rost
> I've noticed a lot of discussion about Pat lately. I've been a Metheny
> fan for around 10 years, the first time I heard him was on Brecker's
> first solo album. Then I went out and bought Still Life (Talking) and
> have been hooked every sense. Lately, I've been discovering his ECM
> records (mainly "Pat Metheny Group" "80/81" and "American Garage") and
> there is a definite difference in style between these two record
> companies. Don't get me wrong, I love them both and have most of his
> records, but do you think the respective record companies have had
> anything to do with his music?
I definitely think so. Manfred Eicher (sp?) of ECM seems to have a LOT of
input into both the music and the sound of his recordings. Many people
even talk of "the ECM sound", almost as if the musicians were (are?)
somewhat interchangeable.
Once Metheny went to Geffen he was free to make all the calls himself.
--
Brian
br...@synnet.com
Matt Snyder
On 4 Nov 1997 22:00:05 GMT, wb...@loc.gov wrote:
>In <345F53...@arkansas.net>, Brian & Angela Rhodes <brh...@arkansas.net> writes:
>>I've noticed a lot of discussion about Pat lately. I've been a Metheny
>>fan for around 10 years, the first time I heard him was on Brecker's
>>first solo album. Then I went out and bought Still Life (Talking) and
>>have been hooked every sense. Lately, I've been discovering his ECM
>>records (mainly "Pat Metheny Group" "80/81" and "American Garage") and
>>there is a definite difference in style between these two record
>>companies. Don't get me wrong, I love them both and have most of his
>>records, but do you think the respective record companies have had
>>anything to do with his music?
>>
>>BTW
>>I noticed that "Imaginary Day" is on the Warner Brothers label, anybody
>>know what's up with that?
Yes, labels play a significant role in Metheny's work. He got hooked
up with producer Manfred Eicher and ECM because he (Metheny) was in
Gary Burton's band, and his first recordings are as a sideman
(Burton's Dreams So Real, Ring and Passengers.)
Metheny has never really come out and told the dirty laundry, but he
had a falling out with Eicher, probably because, as other musicians
have described, Eicher can be kind of a control freak. Still, Metheny
produced some of his best and most varied work on ECM, and he was on
the label at a time when just about every one of its releases was
amazing. For a while he and ECM were perfect for each other.
Geffen offered Metheny a lot, especially his own label. His first
Geffen record, ironically, was Song X (I think). This was misleading,
as the rest of his output Geffen output, while of high quality for the
most part, never reached the heights of exploration that the best of
his ECM work (Offramp, Travels, 80-81, As Falls Wichita, First
Circleetc.) did. But, Metheny matured as a producer while on Geffen
and he solidified a lot of his concepts during his stay.
I've never heard exactly why he fell out with Geffen, but We Live
Here was definitely one of his weaker efforts, and the sloppy and
awful Zero Tolerance For Silence smells like a "contractual
obligation" record to me. On the other hand, the Quartet record was a
great finale to his Geffen years (maybe he was happy he was leaving).
His first Warners album, Imaginary Day, sounds good, so maybe an
association with Warners will prove healthy for Metheny.
Matt Snyder
The Clarinet in Jazz Since 1945
http://www.eclipse.net/~fitzgera/matt/clar1945.htm
Ronaldo Menezes
> I've never heard exactly why he fell out with Geffen, but We Live
> Here was definitely one of his weaker efforts, and the sloppy and
> awful Zero Tolerance For Silence smells like a "contractual
> obligation" record to me. On the other hand, the Quartet record was a
> great finale to his Geffen years (maybe he was happy he was leaving).
>
As far as I know Pat himself said once that Zero Tolerance For Silence was
something he had for long tried to record. In most of his interviews he
talks about it as one of his greatest recording!!!
Just to say that it wasn't a "obligation"....
--
Ronaldo
(TO REPLY REMOVE THE "nospam-" FROM MY ADDRESS)
(PARA RESPONDER, RETIRE O "nospam-" DO MEU ENDERECO)
Nils G. Jacobson
Ronaldo Menezes (nospam-...@minster.york.ac.uk) wrote:
: > I've never heard exactly why he fell out with Geffen, but We Live
: > Here was definitely one of his weaker efforts, and the sloppy and
: > awful Zero Tolerance For Silence smells like a "contractual
: > obligation" record to me.
: As far as I know Pat himself said once that Zero Tolerance For Silence was
: something he had for long tried to record. In most of his interviews he
: talks about it as one of his greatest recording!!!
This is much more accurate with respect to what Pat the man says. He had
to fight with the record execs to get ZTFS out, not the other way around.
As much as it may surprise some people, ZTFS was music that was made by
and can be enjoyed by musical people.
-Nils
Nils G. Jacobson
Simon Weil (simo...@aol.com) wrote:
: Mark Mushet wrote:
: >You mean it *wasn't* his answer to Lou Reed's "Metal Machine Music"?
: >
: It seems more like the antidote to "We Live Here".
Are you sure it isn't the other way around? Maybe we should move this
discussion to that rogue newsgroup which covers contemporary jazz...
-Nils
Simon Weil
records - and as very difficult to listen to. But ZTFS is honest about that
emptiness. "We Live Here" hides it behind a bevy of good tunes. It's a con and
misses an opportunity. In making its emptiness obvious, I think that ZTFS also
manages to say something about how Pat's situation was at the time - which is
better than nothing. It's the antitidote to WLH in the way that Truth is the
antidote to lies.
Simon Weil
Nils G. Jacobson
Simon Weil (simo...@aol.com) wrote:
> ZTFS is the antidote to WLH because it tells the truth. I hear both of
> as empty records - and as very difficult to listen to. But ZTFS is
> honest about that emptiness. "We Live Here" hides it behind a bevy of
> good tunes. It's a con and misses an opportunity. In making its
> emptiness obvious, I think that ZTFS also manages to say something about
> how Pat's situation was at the time - which is better than nothing. It's
> the antitidote to WLH in the way that Truth is the antidote to lies.
Whoa Simon, you *do* take Pat seriously. Have to agree, though you put it
in terms of much greater passion than I would have.
-Nils
John Purves
On 13 Nov 1997 20:08:42 GMT, wgs...@artsci.wustl.edu (William G.
Sacks) wrote:
>
> One quick note about Metheny's departure from ECM: the Rubicon in
>his relationship with Eischer seems to have been the production of
>"Rejoicing," the 1984 trio date with Haden and Higgins which he
>described in an '85 interview as sounding as if "it was recorded in a blue
>fog." He has since reiterated that it is one of his least favorite
>recordings in his back catalog because of the production.
Yes, I remember reading that same thing. I was shocked when I read it
because then and now it is one of my favorite Metheny dates. The mix
is unusual and I recall being a little annoyed with it when I first
got it at release time but I don't find it distracting from the
phenomenal playing by all.
> He has also stated that he is in possession of live tapes of this
>trio from just before "Rejoicing" was recorded- tapes which I, for one, am
>eager to hear.
I recall reading Metheny making some comment around the release of
Question and Answer that sort of implied that with the release of that
disc he felt that he'd captured what the live Rejoicing trio tapes
had, so I don't suspect we'll be seeing any official Rejoicing trio
live tapes anytime soon. Too bad because this group was really
happening. Of course you can hear this trio live with the addition of
Josh Redman blow on "Blues for Pat" on one of Redman's CD's.
jp
Liam_Paninski
>On 13 Nov 1997 20:08:42 GMT, wgs...@artsci.wustl.edu (William G.
>Sacks) wrote:
>
>>
>> One quick note about Metheny's departure from ECM: the Rubicon
in
>>his relationship with Eischer seems to have been the production of
>>"Rejoicing," the 1984 trio date with Haden and Higgins which he
>>described in an '85 interview as sounding as if "it was recorded in a
> blue
>>fog." He has since reiterated that it is one of his least favorite
>>recordings in his back catalog because of the production.
>> He has also stated that he is in possession of live tapes of
this
>>trio from just before "Rejoicing" was recorded- tapes which I, for on
>e, am
>>eager to hear.
Yeah, I've read this too, and I always wondered if pat's views about
this
disc's musical qualities weren't just biased by his feelings about
Eicher. I
have some live stuff from this tour, actually, and I prefer the disc by
far.
I don't know how many times I've listened to that cd - I love
everything on
it (I just wish it was longer!) Anyway, I just don't think the playing
on
the live stuff that I have is anything like the incredible playing on
the
disc. Maybe Pat and I just have different tapes; our tastes must be
fairly
similar, given that I love almost everything I've ever heard by him.
Liam