The deal with "Greensleeves"
Mike C.
though there is the folk tune, which is in pretty much straight minor, using
less chord changes and a minor 6th melody note, with an occasional V7 chord,
but there's also a more hip, Dorian-flavored melody, which seems to be what
is used when the lyrics are incorporated.
Anyone know why there are two very obvious different versions of the tune,
with some different chords and a couple of altered melody notes?
--
Mike C.
http://mikecrutcher.com
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"As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I
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in three.
j_ns...@msn.com
and alter chord progressions, resulting in at least two well-known
variants out there, and that applies even to songs much younger than
"Greensleeves," such as "House Of The Rising Sun." "Greensleeves" was
probably Dorian originally, with very little going on chordwise, and
then the switch from the Dorian and the move towards more/fancier
chords would both be more recent.
Joseph Scott
Mike C.
news:1135039970.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Well, I'm thinking the other way around. It seems that the simpler version
with less chord changes uses an Aeolian melody, using the Bb in the melody,
as opposed to versions with a ii-V for the opening chords, making it more
Dorian. I'm beginning to wonder if the reharmonization was due to Vince
Guaraldi's arrangement of the tune for "A Charlie Brown Christmas". The
version that I'm familiar with that sounds more like a folk tune is
definitely in D Natural Minor, and the more "hip" version, with a Dorian
flavor, puts the tune in C major/D Dorian.
I'm hearing more folk changes like these:
||Dm / /|/ / /|C / /|/ / /|Bb / /|/ / /|A7 / /|/ / /||
as opposed to more jazz-like changes like these:
||Dm7 / /|G7 / /|C / /|Am7 / /|Dm7 / /|BbMaj7 / /|A7 / /|/ / /||
Is this a direct result of Guaraldi reharmonizing the tune? Does anyone know
of an earlier version of the tune that uses similar changes, and a more
Dorian melody?
j_ns...@msn.com
No, my comments don't contradict yours. One version of the tune you
mention is a mix of something that's in fact old, Dorian, with
something newer, more harmonization. The other version you mention is
also a mix of older, less harmonization, with newer, the modification
of the Dorian to something that's generally more accessible to more
modern ears. All kinds of jumbles like that can happen as a well-known
folk song evolves into a number of versions (e.g. Dorian already
modified, but harmony still very simple) within folk and/or pop
tradition, and then more than one time independently, one of those folk
and/or pop versions enters the jazz tradition (and then is modified
however for the purpose, e.g. more harmonization added).
Plus, the fashion for modal jazz during the second half of the 20th
century caused a greater interest among hip, relatively young jazz
musicians in the _oldest_ folk-associated modes than jazz musicians had
had during the first half of the 20th century. So the relationship
between folk and jazz is kind of chronologically "backwards" there as
far as modes are concerned. Meanwhile, degree of harmonization is
basically "forwards" as far as folk and jazz: i.e., in both genres the
amount of harmonization generally increased over time.
So that partly accounts for why jazz versions of folk songs are often a
weird jumble of older and newer, as far as the history of that song
outside the jazz tradition is concerned.
Joseph Scott
j_ns...@msn.com
of any minor chords at all in the progression is very rare. If a
version of a folk song has any minor chords in it at all, it's very
likely a version that someone schooled in an urban area had a hand in
"improving" at some point.
In 19th century U.S. rural folk music, in which amount of harmonization
(almost always using all major chords) was gradually increasing, it was
typically whatever major chords sort of seemed to fit, which resulted
in lots of variation in how a well-known song was harmonized by
different folk musicians. And they sure weren't very picky about that
"fit" amounting to what would seem somehow intellectually defensible to
a learned urban music buff, with regard to mode, or whatever.
Joseph Scott
Marc Sabatella
> seems as though there is the folk tune, which is in pretty much
> straight minor, using less chord changes and a minor 6th melody note,
> with an occasional V7 chord
The original almost certainly used dorian and no chords whatsoever. Of
course, as the major/minor tonality system became established, people
were likely to want to recast the tune into that setting, thus flatting
the sixth and adding chords. Then, as jazz musicians started
re-investigating the old modes, yet another apporach to the tune became
common.
> but there's also a more hip, Dorian-flavored melody, which seems to be
> what is used when the lyrics are incorporated.
I don't think lyrics (either set of them) have anything to do with this.
Some poeple just like to do this tune minor, others dorian. And some
like to play it with more simplified harmonies, some with more complex
ones.
---------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Music, art, & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
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Marc Sabatella
> version with less chord changes uses an Aeolian melody, using the Bb
> in the melody, as opposed to versions with a ii-V for the opening
> chords, making it more Dorian.
That's pretty much coming from the second period of the breakdown given
in my previous post - the b6 and chords were almost certainly added
*centuries* after the tune was written, but even so, that was itself
several centuries ago, so it might seem to you to be the "older" version
if you don't realize just how old the tune really is. Note the rumor
that King Henry VIII wrote the tune is very likely a myth (although he
*did* write quite a bit of music) - the tune is probably older than
that.
> ||Dm7 / /|G7 / /|C / /|Am7 / /|Dm7 / /|BbMaj7 / /|A7 / /|/ / /||
>
> Is this a direct result of Guaraldi reharmonizing the tune? Does
> anyone know of an earlier version of the tune that uses similar
> changes, and a more Dorian melody?
You mean, other than Coltrane? That's probably the most famous jazz
verion, and unless Guaraldi was playing his arrangement before the
Charlie Brown special (which is certainly possible), it predates
Guaraldi using similar (but not identical) changes.
j_ns...@msn.com
Joseph Scott
The Arranger
Marc Sabatella wrote:
> Note the rumor
> that King Henry VIII wrote the tune is very likely a myth (although he
> *did* write quite a bit of music) - the tune is probably older than
> that.
>
Some say Bill Evans wrote it, as it sounds more like something Evans
would write than King Henry VIII. Others say it was Cleanhead Vinson. I
think it was Chuck Wayne.
The Arranger