J.L. declares: Pete Best "was a lousy drummer!" -- in audio!!!
John Whelan
A) John Lennon in his own words, on how terrible
Pete Best's drumming was at the time;
B) Click on "#2. The First Recording Session. (1:00)"
and you'll hear John Lennon reveal his honest
opinion about Pete Best (you'll need "Real Player Audio"
for this; first their is a brief commercial followed by
the interview with Lennon's remarks!):
http://www.beatlebrunch.com/audio/bm01-03.lasso
And here is a second opinion that Pete Best was a bad drummer:
Typed from the book:
"The Beatles From Cavern to Star-Club"
by Hans Olof Gottfridsson.
IT WAS LOUD, LOUD, LOUD
-- An interview with Karl Hinze
Karl Hinze worked as master sound technician during
the Tony Sheridan/Beatles sessions on June 22 and 23,
1961, at the Friedrich Ebert Halle. Bert Kaempfert
conducted. Thirty-five years later, on June 3, 1996,
Ulf Kruger spoke with him.
<snip!> The interview begins but moves forward later
with questions on how the Polydor session came off:
Q. And what are your personal memories of those boys?
Did they give a good impression?
A. We didn't talk very much. They just made music. We
had some language problems. That's the reason why we
didn't talk so much.
Q. And did you think they played well?
A. They represented something new to us. It was loud,
loud, loud! Loud was OK. That goes for life itself. When
the people are on stage they promote themselves with their
5000 watts... so, loud is always good. I thought the
recording of "My Bonnie" -- I still listen to it sometimes --
was, well...the drummer, for instance, was lousy. There
is a passage where everything is a mess but...well...the
record sold.
Match game and point, dear Chewbop!
Best Regards,
John Whelan
Chief Researcher
for the Ottawa Beatles Site
http://www.ncf.ca/beatles/
John Whelan
"John Whelan" <an...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:9ged6l$dbv$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
>
> Match game and point, dear Chewbop!
Correction:
Match point and game, dear Chewbop!
Regards,
John Whelan
Mister Charlie
Are you calling Ringo a liar?
"John Whelan" <an...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:9ged6l$dbv$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
>
Davisk
He's making most of the stuff up as he goes along! ;>)
"Mister Charlie" <cc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9geh02$8orh6$1...@ID-63206.news.dfncis.de...
Chewbop
"Davisk" <davi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1pyW6.922$he3.12...@news1.tor.primus.ca...
> Ringo was too much of a drunk to really remember anything before the 70's.
> He's making most of the stuff up as he goes along! ;>)
Actually, Ringo's alcoholism and drug addiction didn't occur until the
1980's when he was middle-aged. You remember, that was the same time period
when he was punching up his wife Barbara. To this day, he doesn't fully
comprehend how fortunate he was that he didn't land in the slammer. As was
said before, Ringo was the luckiest man of the 20th century.
Chewbop
Good Lord, you can't even get a cliche straight.
"I didn't rate Ringo very highly. He couldn't do a roll. He still can't."
- George Martin, on Ringo's
drumming ability in 1968....long after the recording of "Nowhere Man" and
"All You Need Is Love".
Chewbop
"John Whelan" <an...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:9ged6l$dbv$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
>
> Pete Best's drumming was at the time;
"Pete was a really good drummer"
- Paul McCartney, commenting on Pete
Best's drumming ability in 2001 in the "Wingspan" TV special.
Jimmy3Dean
even have to know anything about drums to conclude he was really bad. Of
course Paul's singing on the same record was bad too. But that drumming! The
man was clearly and totally lost. Maybe it was nerves I don't know but it
was such a simple song. He's doing change ups or whatever you call them
where no man has gone before. You'd think he'd had it down pretty good. In
his book he described working on the song for quite awhile. He should have
been able to play it in his sleep. He also nearly claims to have co-wrote
Love me Do. Personally I think it would be a real mediocre song if not for
the harmonic and the Beatles delivery.
Jimmy3Dean
intended for the public to hear. So anything from his diaries must be taken
in the context that it was delivered.
Chewbop
"Jimmy3Dean" <jimmy...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3B2B5FF0...@msn.com...
> If you listen to his drumming on Love Me do on the Anthology, one doesn't
> even have to know anything about drums to conclude he was really bad. Of
> course Paul's singing on the same record was bad too. But that drumming!
The
> man was clearly and totally lost. Maybe it was nerves I don't know but it
> was such a simple song.
If it was such a simple song, how come Ringo was replaced by Andy White
after George Martin first heard Ringo attempt to play the song?
>He's doing change ups or whatever you call them
> where no man has gone before. You'd think he'd had it down pretty good.
If Pete's performance on the Anthology version was so terrible as you
say....and assuming he rehearsed the song endlessly with the others prior to
the EMI audition....why wasn't he replaced BEFORE the audition? In other
words, I wonder why John, Paul, and George didn't share your assessment?
And guess who has more credibility with this newsgroup?
Mister Charlie
"Jimmy3Dean" <jimmy...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3B2B5FF0...@msn.com...
2nd Coming@kingdom.com Chocolate Jesus
"Chewbop" <wtw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9gfiao$8kho5$1...@ID-51639.news.dfncis.de...
You remember, that was the same time period
> when he was punching up his wife Barbara.
reminds you of when your wife was punching you out?
2nd Coming@kingdom.com Chocolate Jesus
> If it was such a simple song, how come Ringo was replaced by Andy White
you wouldnt understand Gerry, unless you were in the business.
my advice to you is to go back to trolling korean porn star groups.
it's more your style, Zekelo...:)
Davisk
"Chewbop" <wtw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9gfiao$8kho5$1...@ID-51639.news.dfncis.de...
Davisk
> even have to know anything about drums to conclude he was really bad. Of
> course Paul's singing on the same record was bad too. But that drumming!
The
> man was clearly and totally lost. Maybe it was nerves I don't know but it
> was such a simple song. He's doing change ups or whatever you call them
> where no man has gone before. You'd think he'd had it down pretty good. In
> his book he described working on the song for quite awhile. He should have
> been able to play it in his sleep. He also nearly claims to have co-wrote
> Love me Do. Personally I think it would be a real mediocre song if not for
> the harmonic and the Beatles delivery.
>
You gotta realize, Nance, that it was their first single they were
recording, and George Martin was unsure of the group, so I think they were
being very conservative. Plus the song itself wasn't written in such a way
that it would be better off with an energetic drum tempo (it probably would
have sounded just as well without drums - they seem to just be there to keep
the beat and offer that cymbal crash at certain parts).
Chewbop
"Chocolate Jesus" <The 2nd Com...@kingdom.com> wrote in message
news:9gfpb5$d65$0...@dosa.alt.net...
How would you know anything about Korean porn star groups?
Strabbo
> And the joke flys right over Chewy's head...
>
....and whacks him in the lower back.
Davisk
"Strabbo" <str...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:tin7i7g...@corp.supernews.com...
2nd Coming@kingdom.com Chocolate Jesus
> And the joke flys right over Chewy's head...
as do the yolks!
John Whelan
I've reviewed my "Wingspan" video tape. Though Paul
said those words, the way you have presented here on Rmb
is taken quite out of context. What Paul did say, as an adjunct
to his remark, was that Pete was "nearly with it all" but that
it is "a fine line to what exactly in and what nearly in" means.
In otherwords, Pete wasn't right for the band as the Beatles'
drummer just like Geoff Britton wasn't the right drummer for Wings.
That was the comparison Paul was making. Two drummers
didn't fit the bill. John Lennon made it clear that Pete was
indeed a lousy drummer who never improved as you've well
have heard from that audio clip that lead to Pete's dismisal.
(listen to audio clip #2 again, Chewbop:
http://www.beatlebrunch.com/audio/bm01-03.lasso)
Since you didn't comment on the interview with Karl
Hinze, culled from "The Beatles From Cavern to Star-Club"
by Hans Olof Gottfridsson, let me point out the obvious to
you: It is indeed very interesting revelation coming from
the "master sound technician" (predating any "EMI" recording
by the Fabs) who was there at the recording sessions to have
observed that "the drummer, for instance, was lousy. There is
a passage where everything is a mess but... well...the record sold."
Here is a master sound technician who identified early the musical
problem the Beatles had in their band, namely their drummer,
Pete Best. Isn't it interesting that he was the first one who identified
the drumming problem early on, long before the actual sacking of
Peter Best! The Beatles, I'm sure, kept Pete in the group because,
as you know, finding a full-time drummer was a problem for the
band. So I would imagine with that in mind, they'd give Pete every
opportunity to prove himself. But he didn't, as Lennon said.
If the drumming on "My Bonnie" by Pete Best wasn't done
with precise expertness as Mr. Karl Hinze observed at the recording
sessions, then surely one only has to listen to Pete Best version
on "Love Me Do" and that is more than enough testimony that the man
couldn't really drum very well, especially on numbers that demanded some
"creative input" into the process of making a song -- it's just another
example where Pete falls short in the drumming department.
George Martin realized this and it was conveyed to Pete Best by
Brian Epstein when he said: "The boys want you out and Ringo in...
They don't think you're a good enough drummer, Pete," Brian went
on. "And George Martin doesn't think you're a good enough drummer."
(quote from "Beatle! The Pete Best Story" by Pete Best & Patrick
Doncaster).
As much as Pete was in shock over this statement and all the theories
that followed after it as to what caused his dismissal, it is pretty clear
from Karl Hinze's statement along with George Martin's -- two people
who have worked with musicians -- is that their personal assessment of
Pete to keep the band together "tight" through his drumming, wasn't
going to happen, nor was it likely that his drumming was going to advance
The Beatles career. That much is indeed obvious and, putting personality
problems aside, I'm confident enough that the Beatles made their decision
based on the final opinion of George Martin, that Pete wasn't the man
for the studio on a drumset (they knew it, and, as John Lennon might have
hoped for from Pete was some sort of improvement by the time they
got to EMI, but as Lennon said, it didn't happen.)
I recall Chewbop, when you first started off on this crazy tangent
about Pete Best is that you called upon the group to provide an actual
comment from any of the Beatles as to what the reason was for Pete's
dismisal. You now have an audio clip to prove it, that it was indeed
a necessary musical decision (George Harrison has also claimed
it was a musical decision to replace Pete with Ringo).
DISPELLING CHEWBOP'S "LEWISOHN" FACTOR ON RMB!
You simply amaze me with how much high regard and esteem you
have that "everything Lewisohn writes must be gospel truth, re: "Please
Please Me" debacle here on Rmb. The following information will illustrate
to you, Chewbop, that Mark has been wrong on his research efforts:
For the following, I highly recommend that you pick up Goldmind's
"The Beatles Digest" 2000 edition -- it should still be at your major book
stores:
A) "The story of 'Get Back' winds to a close with the recording
of the official release. A definite error does occur in The Beatles
Recording Sessions when Lewisohn claims that a Jan. 27 recording
session of 'Get Back' was used for the Let It Be album, while a Jan. 28
recording was used for the single release. In fact, both versions are
the same (Jan. 28) recording. The single is simply longer than the album
version due to the inclusion of the coda. The single version, in fact,
ran even longer. The tail end of that performance may be found
as a "tag" to both the Let It Be film and commonly bootlegged Get Back
LP. Comparing the beginning of the tag to the very end of the fade on
the mono single mix of 'Get Back,' one will find the two join up quite
nicely. (Page: 102, writer, Doug Souply)
Here is another mistake from Lewisohn:
B) Lewisohn developed a timeline on Lennon in the British magazine
"The Sunday Times" in 1980:
"December 22 John and Yoko have a 51-minute meeting with Canada's
Prime Minister Trudeau." (Page: 61, writer, Mark Lewisohn)
Chewbop, the date is wrong. Based on local papers from my home
town, Ottawa, where Lennon met Trudeau, it was on December 23, and
not December 22.
C) Lewisohn was never at the "Please Please Me" recording sessions.
The re-make of "Please Please Me" with Ringo Starr, occurred on
November 26 and was wittnessed and documented by Mersey Beat
reporter Alan Smith (regarding "Please Please Me", Alan wrote:
"The seconds ticked away, high in the control room at EMI's recording
studios in St. John's Wood, London. Through the glass panel I could
see The Beatles, grouping themselves round the microphone as they
waited for the singal to begin. Recording manager George Martin
made a few last-minute adjustments to the control panel." Jan 3 -17,
1963,
Mersey Beat.)
Given the first two revelations above, so-much for worshipping that
everything Lewisohn says and writes should not be viewed as "gospel
truth" as you claim. The same goes for C) since you, Chewbop, never
produced that Lewisohn article on Rmb for which he makes his erroneous
claims about the "Please Please Me" sessions.
And oh yes, in response, Chewbop, to your usage of the following
quote:
"I didn't rate Ringo very highly. He couldn't do a roll.
He still can't."
George Martin, on Ringo's drumming ability in 1968....long
after the recording of "Nowhere Man" and "All You Need Is Love".
LET'S HEAR WHAT OTHER'S HAVE TO SAY ABOUT RINGO'S
DRUMMING STYLE AND ABILITY:
Don Was -- "Ringo's drums are one of the greatest things you can have on a record."
George Martin -- "Ringo has a tremendous feel for a song and he always helped us
hit the right tempo the first time. He was rock solid. This made the recording of
all the Beatle songs so much easier." (interviewed in 1988 for The Beatles
Recording Sessions by Mark Lewisohn)
George Martin -- "I did quickly realize that Ringo was an excellent drummer for
what was required. He's not a technical drummer. Men like Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa
would run rings around him, but he is a good solid rock drummer with a steady beat,
and he knows how to get the right sound out of his drums. Above all, he does have
an individual sound. You can tell Ringo's drums from anyone else's and that
character was a definite asset to the Beatles' early recordings." (All You Need Is
Ears, 1979)
Lenny Kaye -- "He was always meant to be utilitarian, a drummer to provide feisty
beat. He did this directly with wit imagination and the famous Ringo personality.
And his Spartan Ludwig kit showed his ability to cut economically to the heart of
the rhythm." (interview for The Compleat Beatles, 1985)
Kenny Aronoff -- "He consistently came up with new ideas that always seemed perfect
for the song, but it wasn't just a matter of him picking a basic beat for a song,
because lots of drummers could do that. Ringo definitely had the right kind of
personality and creative ideas for The Beatles music. You will rarely find a
Beatles song without something noticeable that Ringo played or didn't play."
(Modern Drummer magazine, Oct. 1987)
Tim Riley -- "Ringo wanted to serve the songs rather than show off. As a song
writer's drummer, Ringo was the type of musician who could follow instructions as
he completed the overall sound. His commitment to the music was bigger than his
ego." ( Tell Me Why, 1988)
Bob Cianci -- "He must have done something right. People today still look for
people who play like Ringo. If you don't believe me, just check the musical ads. On
top of all this, he certainly inspired countless millions of teenagers worldwide to
learn drums. There's no doubt it, Ringo's a very important rock drummer. ... What
Ringo does on the most basic of terms is make the music feel good. He refers to his
playing as being fraught with silly fills due to his self-admitted lack of
technique, but he says it proudly. ... Sometimes chops do not a real drummer make."
(Great Rock Drummers of the 60s, 1989)
Phil Collins, drummer for Genesis -- "I think he's vastly underrated. The drum
fills on A Day In The Life are very complex things. You could take a great drummer
today and say, 'I want it like that.' They wouldn't know what to do." (interview
for The Making of Sgt. Pepper, 1992)
"Paul has been recently quoted as saying that Ringo Starr is still his favorite
drummer, much to the amazement of the drumming community and the world at large.
McCartney's worked with Steve Gadd, Jeff Porcaro- he can have the pick of anyone,
just about, but he still loves Ringo." --- Deborah Parisi, writing for Rhythm
magazine(1990)
Regards,
John Whelan
Chief Researcher for the
Ottawa Beatles Site
http://www.ncf.ca/beatles
Quotes on Ringo's drumming ability,
culled from Gary Shultz "Ringo Starr Homepage"
paramucho
wrote:
>And the joke flys right over Chewy's head...
*whoosh*
ian
Mister Charlie
<Wild Applause>
Thank you for doing all this groundwork. Of course you-know-who will
discount it, but every thinking person who comes here and reads it will come
away with the correct interpretation, easily.
Damn fine work!
"John Whelan" <an...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:9gh4ne$iak$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
Chewbop
>
> "Chewbop" <wtw...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9gfidn$8sc0o$2...@ID-51639.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> >
> > - Paul McCartney, commenting on Pete
> > Best's drumming ability in 2001 in the "Wingspan" TV special.
>
> I've reviewed my "Wingspan" video tape. Though Paul
> said those words, the way you have presented here on Rmb
> is taken quite out of context. What Paul did say, as an adjunct
> to his remark, was that Pete was "nearly with it all" but that
> it is "a fine line to what exactly in and what nearly in" means.
Does anyone here know what in the hell this guy is talking about?? Did Paul
say Pete was a really good drummer or not? Are you saying Paul was lying
when he said that?
> Since you didn't comment on the interview with Karl
> Hinze, culled from "The Beatles From Cavern to Star-Club"
> by Hans Olof Gottfridsson, let me point out the obvious to
> you: It is indeed very interesting revelation coming from
> the "master sound technician" (predating any "EMI" recording
> by the Fabs) who was there at the recording sessions to have
> observed that "the drummer, for instance, was lousy. There is
> a passage where everything is a mess but... well...the record sold."
If Pete's performance on the June 1961 Polydor sessions was as bad as you
say, why then did Bert Kaempfert ask him to record for him again a year
later? Why do you refuse to answer that question? I think we all know why.
Who gives a damn what "Karl Hinze" thinks anyway? Bert Kaempfert was
perhaps the most widely respected A&R man in Europe at that time. He is the
one who asked Pete to return to the studio to record for him again in 1962.
As I recall, he didn't ask Ringo....even though he must have heard Ringo
playing in the Hamburg clubs at that time with Rory Storm. I guess I can
understand why he didn't ask Ringo. Case closed.
> If the drumming on "My Bonnie" by Pete Best wasn't done
> with precise expertness as Mr. Karl Hinze observed at the recording
> sessions, then surely one only has to listen to Pete Best version
> on "Love Me Do" and that is more than enough testimony that the man
> couldn't really drum very well, especially on numbers that demanded
some
> "creative input" into the process of making a song -- it's just
another
> example where Pete falls short in the drumming department.
Again, why was Ringo replaced with Andy White on LMD after George Martin
heard Ringo play? I guess I can understand why you want to avoid that
question.
> I recall Chewbop, when you first started off on this crazy
tangent
> about Pete Best
Sorry, pal. You started this thread; I didn't.
> Lewisohn was never at the "Please Please Me" recording sessions.
> The re-make of "Please Please Me" with Ringo Starr, occurred on
> November 26 and was wittnessed and documented by Mersey Beat
> reporter Alan Smith (regarding "Please Please Me", Alan wrote:
> "The seconds ticked away, high in the control room at EMI's
recording
> studios in St. John's Wood, London. Through the glass panel I
could
> see The Beatles, grouping themselves round the microphone as
they
> waited for the singal to begin. Recording manager George Martin
> made a few last-minute adjustments to the control panel." Jan
3 -17,
> 1963,
> Mersey Beat.)
Sorry, but Alan Smith wasn't present when the decision was made to use the
backing track from the Sept. 11 session with Andy White on drums.
> Given the first two revelations above, so-much for worshipping
that
> everything Lewisohn says and writes should not be viewed as "gospel
> truth" as you claim. The same goes for C) since you, Chewbop, never
> produced that Lewisohn article on Rmb for which he makes his
erroneous
> claims about the "Please Please Me" sessions.
Again, you're out in left field as usual. That interview has been
reproduced here three times over the past year. It is fully documented.
2nd Coming@kingdom.com Chocolate Jesus
>Bert Kaempfert was perhaps the most widely respected A&R man in Europe at
that time.
BWHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!
ROFLOLOLOLOLOMFAO!!!!!!!!!
J. Juls
Damn, Quick Time and Real Player fought it out in my computer. Quick Time
won. Now I can't play any Real Player files.
Julie
Davisk
Tee hee hee. I think Chewy's got a hard-on for Bert. I wonder if he has
the guy's picture plastered all over his bedroom...
Mister Charlie
Heavens no! That would cover up all his mirrors!
>
>
the walrus was Danny
> on "Love Me Do"
Yes yes yes Love Me do is shit granted, but that was a hiccup. Other than
that Pete's drumming did what it should in 1962. He was fine as a drummer
boy, as GM told Mona when she phoned him. He was surprised he'd been sacked.
it's just another
> example where Pete falls short in the drumming department.
No it's the *only* one. He was boring yes, but he did his job adequately.
>
> George Martin realized this and it was conveyed to Pete Best by
> Brian Epstein when he said: "The boys want you out and Ringo in...
> They don't think you're a good enough drummer, Pete,"
He might have said that but I shall say two words...Roag Best.
> I recall Chewbop, when you first started off on this crazy
tangent
> about Pete Best is that you called upon the group to provide an
actual
> comment from any of the Beatles as to what the reason was for Pete's
> dismisal. You now have an audio clip to prove it, that it was indeed
> a necessary musical decision (George Harrison has also claimed
> it was a musical decision to replace Pete with Ringo).
It's all a cover up coz of Roag.
> Phil Collins, drummer for Genesis -- "I think he's vastly underrated.
All the comments about Richie are quite valid, but not in the early days, he
was just a lucky bugger who was at the right place at the right time. He got
drafted in a flourished..as Pete could have done.
Danny
Mister Charlie
"the walrus was Danny" <thewalru...@totalise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3b2d3ae9$0$12247> then surely one only has to listen to Pete Best
version
> > on "Love Me Do"
>
> Yes yes yes Love Me do is shit granted, but that was a hiccup
Good Lord, back and ready to parrot the same old tired chewbop line? Why
Daniel, why???
> it's just another
> > example where Pete falls short in the drumming department.
>
> No it's the *only* one. He was boring yes, but he did his job adequately.
Oh I see. And you have heard volumes of Pete's drumming then? Please
share...what's the best he ever did?
> It's all a cover up coz of Roag.
<snark!> Dude, that is so weak as to not even be funny any more!
>
> > Phil Collins, drummer for Genesis -- "I think he's vastly underrated.
Pete was fine as a live club drummer, where noise and inattention (along
with dancing and amateur musicians) made precision drumming unnecessary (as
did working in Mommy Mona's club). But once any sort of skill was required,
he was out. Simple as that.
Jeff U.
>
> If Pete's performance on the June 1961 Polydor sessions was as bad as you
> say, why then did Bert Kaempfert ask him to record for him again a year
> later? Why do you refuse to answer that question? I think we all know
why.
>
> Who gives a damn what "Karl Hinze" thinks anyway? Bert Kaempfert was
> perhaps the most widely respected A&R man in Europe at that time. He is
the
> one who asked Pete to return to the studio to record for him again in
1962.
> As I recall, he didn't ask Ringo....even though he must have heard Ringo
> playing in the Hamburg clubs at that time with Rory Storm. I guess I can
> understand why he didn't ask Ringo. Case closed.
You AGAIN interpet this as if he specifically asked PETE to play/record. He
did not ask Pete, he asked the GROUP idiot. Pete was just part of the
group.
Jeff U.
Mister Charlie
"Jeff U." <opusjeff(no spam)@fast.net> wrote in message
news:9glt36$4...@nntpa.cb.lucent.com...
> You AGAIN interpet this as if he specifically asked PETE to play/record.
He
> did not ask Pete, he asked the GROUP idiot. Pete was just part of the
> group.
>
thoughts and motives, without even knowing them!