YOKO'S AFFAIRS
richard joly
<snip Guitarist David Spinozza >
<snip Sam Greene >
<snip Sam Havadtroy >
>
>For some reason no one seems to be able (or willing) to comment on
>this.....you will probably hear from people quoting Goldman-but that just
>isn't proof as far as I'm concerned.
>
>Richard Joly-any info?
Offhand, I don't know of any articles/books outside of Goldman's and
Seaman's where this would be discussed.
Of course, I'd like to learn of anything serious/credible .... oh what
the heck, silly things too [ POST, NATIONAL ENQUIRER , ETC ].
Richard
BEATLE8888
if I'm wrong but didn't she have an affair with Guitarist David Spinozza
from 1972-75? What about her liason with Sam Greene in 1980
in which she supposedly was going to kick John out again just before
making Double Fantasy? Also Sam Havadtroy her decorator !!
It seems to me that Yoko is keen on mentioning John's indescretions
but not her own ....She seems to think she is flawless in charecter
and pretends her affairs never happened .
Amaranth56
Yes, Yoko had affairs as well. I think it's not certain if she had one with
Spinozza. I recall that he wanted nothing to do with her. However, Sam Green
and Abbey Hoffman were 2 of the men she slept with during her marriage to John.
IMO it's despicable that Yoko is using the liner notes to the Lennon Anthology
to preach the Gospel according to Yoko. She'd have us believe she was a
long-suffering saint who did only what was best for John. Bull. She's trying
to get us to feel sorry for her.
Don't be fooled by Yoko's soft wording.
This is not to excuse John's behavior. But for all his faults, John never
spoke publicly about Yoko's infidelities.
Tom
>This is not to excuse John's behavior. But for all his faults, John never
>spoke publicly about Yoko's infidelities.
I think both of them accepted infidelity. It seems like the thing Yoko's
upset about is that she was in the next room at the time.
It was definitely the wrong place to talk about it. Eric Clapton once said
that he used interviews as a form of therepy. It seems like Yoko (and
Julian) share that philosophy and are working out personal issues in public.
You'd think the three of them could afford psychiatrists.
Ben Okuly
> This is not to excuse John's behavior. But for all his faults, John
> never
> spoke publicly about Yoko's infidelities.
I'm sorry. I know that there are some people who do like Yoko Ono, and
that is their choice. But I do not like Yoko, and everytime I hear
anything about her, I think of that old joke: "What does Yoko Ono and
Ethiopians have in common? They both live off dead Beatles."
I think Amaranth56 makes a good point how John never spoke publicly
about Yoko's fooling around. But one thing to remember is that Yoko Ono
can go out and say whatever she wants to say, and what will John Lennon
do about it? He's dead, and there's nothing stopping Yoko.
I'm sorry, but while this Lennon Anthology is a pretty cool thing to do,
I see it as an ego booster for Yoko Ono. It's coming out about two
years after the Beatles Anthology and all its hype has died down, and no
doubt this will start some interest in John like the Anthology did with
the Beatles. I'm not saying that there isn't any interest because
everyone who reads this knows that there is, or otherwise you would not
be reading it. It will, however, draw more people and their attention
to John Lennon, the solo performer instead of John Lennon, the Beatle.
Plus, I find it interesting how it's coming out right on the heels of
the new Ringo Starr Storytellers CD, as well as the Linda McCartney
tribute. While I haven't heard the Linda CD yet -- I don't get paid
until the end of the week, and that's when I'll pick it up -- I do have
the Storytellers CD, and it is GREAT! But because it's Ringo Starr, you
know that not a lot of people will be pushing it like they will be
pushing the Lennon Anthology. And if people did have a choice between
the Linda CD or Lennon . . . I think the response is clear on that one.
Plus, with this talk of a Wings Anthology coming out, isn't it funny how
this whole Lennon thing was rushed to get done? I see it as Yoko saying
that she had to have it done first and be the best and all that stuff.
I see it as her way of trying to out do Paul McCartney and beat him at
some game that she's playing, atleast that's how I see it and that's
what my opinion is. No wonder he didn't invite her to Linda's memorial.
Jim Richard
The David Spinozza story comes from May Pang's book. She noticed them
flirting while Spinozza played guitar on Yoko's "Feeling the Space"
album. Later, during Yoko and John separation, May reports that Yoko
called John and told her she was seeing someone. Yoko asked John to
guess who, and John guessed Spinozza. Afterwards, Yoko called May up
and scolded her for telling John about David.
Jim
cee...@pacbell.net
beatl...@aol.com (BEATLE8888) wrote:
> Yoko mentions John's infidelity in the Anthology set..correct me
> if I'm wrong but didn't she have an affair with Guitarist David Spinozza
> from 1972-75? What about her liason with Sam Greene in 1980
> in which she supposedly was going to kick John out again just before
> making Double Fantasy? Also Sam Havadtroy her decorator !!
> It seems to me that Yoko is keen on mentioning John's indescretions
> but not her own ....She seems to think she is flawless in charecter
> and pretends her affairs never happened .
>
Well, ya know, I can never find any information out about this....I have heard
all but the Sam Greene thing...(who is he?)
For some reason no one seems to be able (or willing) to comment on
this.....you will probably hear from people quoting Goldman-but that just
isn't proof as far as I'm concerned.
Richard Joly-any info?
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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na
Amaranth56 wrote in message <19981027182758...@ng08.aol.com>...
> IMO it's despicable that Yoko is using the liner notes to the Lennon
Anthology
>to preach the Gospel according to Yoko.
yeah i agree.
it sucks.
wtf has that got to do with the jl anthology?
as bart said"it used to be about the music man"
na
Creston
Creston
BEATLE8888 wrote in message
<19981027161901...@ng-fi1.aol.com>...
Amaranth56
>Let me guess "The Lives Of John Lennon", by Mr Albert Goldman?
Also Frederic Seaman, who has an almost equally bad rep here. Nevertheless, he
practically lived with John and Yoko.
Funny how people will believe researched (read "whitewashed") bios, but trash
firsthand accounts.
BTW, as I recall, Seaman didn't say for certain that Yoko and Sam Havadtoy had
an affair while John was alive. Sam Green, yes.
cee...@pacbell.net
amara...@aol.com (Amaranth56) wrote:
> beatl...@aol.com (BEATLE8888) wrote:
>
> >Yoko mentions John's infidelity in the Anthology set..correct me
> >if I'm wrong but didn't she have an affair with Guitarist David Spinozza
> >from 1972-75? What about her liason with Sam Greene in 1980
> >in which she supposedly was going to kick John out again just before
> >making Double Fantasy? Also Sam Havadtroy her decorator !!
> >It seems to me that Yoko is keen on mentioning John's indescretions
> >but not her own ....She seems to think she is flawless in charecter
> > and pretends her affairs never happened .
>
> Spinozza. I recall that he wanted nothing to do with her. However, Sam Green
> and Abbey Hoffman were 2 of the men she slept with during her marriage to
John.
Anthology
> long-suffering saint who did only what was best for John. Bull. She's trying
> to get us to feel sorry for her.
>
> Don't be fooled by Yoko's soft wording.
>
> spoke publicly about Yoko's infidelities.
>
Can you quote sources for this? (besides Goldman?)
cee...@pacbell.net
"Tom" <Blac...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
> >This is not to excuse John's behavior. But for all his faults, John never
> >spoke publicly about Yoko's infidelities.
>
> upset about is that she was in the next room at the time.
>
Now this is the sanest response I have seen so far! Thanks!
> It was definitely the wrong place to talk about it. Eric Clapton once said
> that he used interviews as a form of therepy. It seems like Yoko (and
> Julian) share that philosophy and are working out personal issues in public.
>
> You'd think the three of them could afford psychiatrists.
>
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
cee...@pacbell.net
Sorry, but info from two people whi have personal vendettas against Yoko dont
count.
Edward S. Chen
Ben Okuly <luc...@bright.net> wrote:
>
>Plus, with this talk of a Wings Anthology coming out, isn't it funny how
>this whole Lennon thing was rushed to get done? I see it as Yoko saying
>that she had to have it done first and be the best and all that stuff.
For the record, the "Lennon Anthology" (not with that title) has been in
preparation for at least five years. Work was proceeding on it at the same
time "The Beatles Anthology" was in preparation. No "rushing" there.
<ESC>
--
"A plausible mission for artists is to make people appreciate being
alive at least a little bit. Do I know of any artists who pulled that
off? The Beatles did." -- Kurt Vonnegut, 1997
topt...@my-dejanews.com
luc...@bright.net wrote:
> Amaranth56 wrote:
>
> > This is not to excuse John's behavior. But for all his faults, John
> > never
> > spoke publicly about Yoko's infidelities.
>
> that is their choice. But I do not like Yoko, and everytime I hear
> anything about her, I think of that old joke: "What does Yoko Ono and
> Ethiopians have in common? They both live off dead Beatles."
>
> I think Amaranth56 makes a good point how John never spoke publicly
> about Yoko's fooling around. But one thing to remember is that Yoko Ono
> can go out and say whatever she wants to say, and what will John Lennon
> do about it? He's dead, and there's nothing stopping Yoko.
>
> I'm sorry, but while this Lennon Anthology is a pretty cool thing to do,
> I see it as an ego booster for Yoko Ono. It's coming out about two
> years after the Beatles Anthology and all its hype has died down, and no
> doubt this will start some interest in John like the Anthology did with
> the Beatles. I'm not saying that there isn't any interest because
> everyone who reads this knows that there is, or otherwise you would not
> be reading it. It will, however, draw more people and their attention
> to John Lennon, the solo performer instead of John Lennon, the Beatle.
> Plus, I find it interesting how it's coming out right on the heels of
> the new Ringo Starr Storytellers CD, as well as the Linda McCartney
> tribute. While I haven't heard the Linda CD yet -- I don't get paid
> until the end of the week, and that's when I'll pick it up -- I do have
> the Storytellers CD, and it is GREAT! But because it's Ringo Starr, you
> know that not a lot of people will be pushing it like they will be
> pushing the Lennon Anthology. And if people did have a choice between
> the Linda CD or Lennon . . . I think the response is clear on that one.
>
> this whole Lennon thing was rushed to get done? I see it as Yoko saying
> that she had to have it done first and be the best and all that stuff.
> some game that she's playing, atleast that's how I see it and that's
> what my opinion is. No wonder he didn't invite her to Linda's memorial.
>
>
Well, it seems to me that WE keep this rivalry alive MUCH MORE than Paul or
Yoko......
Tom
>Funny how people will believe researched (read "whitewashed") bios, but
trash
>firsthand accounts.
>
Ideally, a reasearched account would be an attemt to find a balanced picture
and not be marred by a single agenda. Doesn't always happen that way, but we
can hope.
-BEN
>Sorry, but info from two people whi have personal vendettas against
>Yoko dont count.
Does info only count if it's "good"? What did you honestly expect to
see in Coleman's book then? Or do you expect Elliot Mintz to write a
tell all book on Yoko's infidelities?
You can either take in every word Mintz says as unbiased gospel, or keep
an open mind about things.
-BEN
Kent Stewart
>
> Creston" <cre...@nospam.ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
> >Let me guess "The Lives Of John Lennon", by Mr Albert Goldman?
>
> Also Frederic Seaman, who has an almost equally bad rep here.
> Nevertheless, he practically lived with John and Yoko.
Uh, wasn't he a gofer running errands from the office?
John and Yoko, on the other hand, practically *were* John and Yoko.
Theirs were the lives being lived, theirs the motivation to try and
be together, and theirs alone each of the challenges that commitment
faced. Theirs and theirs alone the heartbreak, should they fail.
Amazing how that alone seems to stamp them as liars to many here.
After all, they couldn't have simply been a partnership of admittedly
imperfect human beings, making their best clumsy attempts at finding
happiness and sanctuary together, sometimes succeeding, other times
failing, and trying again. It *must* have been far more sinister than
that. And we, the betrayed, surely have a right to know.
> Funny how people will believe researched (read "whitewashed") bios,
> but trash firsthand accounts.
Such as Yoko's, or John's?
Oops, I forgot again: they don't count. Their lives existed merely
for our morbid entertainment. Silly of me to forget, really.
Do carry on. At least John no longer has to watch. I used to think
he was merely paranoid; but my lord, this shit must have hurt him as
much as he often said it did.
cheers,
--bongo
I know,
There is no way to repay you
Whatever it takes
I will try to
The rest of my life I will
Thank you
Thank you, thank you
A Beatles Store
included John's shortcomings in Lennon Anthology box set, and not
visa-versa. I'd be willing to bet Paul didn't have any unkind words about
Linda in Wide Prarie.
A Beatles Store
http://www.songtips.com/beatles.htm
cee...@pacbell.net
Kent Stewart <kste...@processedmeatfilter.td2cad.intel.com> wrote:
> Amaranth56 wrote:
> >
> > Creston" <cre...@nospam.ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > >Let me guess "The Lives Of John Lennon", by Mr Albert Goldman?
> >
> > Also Frederic Seaman, who has an almost equally bad rep here.
> > Nevertheless, he practically lived with John and Yoko.
>
> Uh, wasn't he a gofer running errands from the office?
>
> John and Yoko, on the other hand, practically *were* John and Yoko.
> Theirs were the lives being lived, theirs the motivation to try and
> be together, and theirs alone each of the challenges that commitment
> faced. Theirs and theirs alone the heartbreak, should they fail.
>
> Amazing how that alone seems to stamp them as liars to many here.
>
> After all, they couldn't have simply been a partnership of admittedly
> imperfect human beings, making their best clumsy attempts at finding
> happiness and sanctuary together, sometimes succeeding, other times
> failing, and trying again. It *must* have been far more sinister than
> that. And we, the betrayed, surely have a right to know.
>
YES!!!! Thanks for the biggest laugh I've had in a long while!
You sure are good at putting this in perspective!
> > Funny how people will believe researched (read "whitewashed") bios,
> > but trash firsthand accounts.
>
> Such as Yoko's, or John's?
> Oops, I forgot again: they don't count. Their lives existed merely
> for our morbid entertainment. Silly of me to forget, really.
>
Do try not to let this happen again!
> Do carry on. At least John no longer has to watch. I used to think
> he was merely paranoid; but my lord, this shit must have hurt him as
> much as he often said it did.
>
Yeah, this is the sad part.......it must have puzzled him mightily as to why
folks insisted on demonizing Yoko....
> cheers,
> --bongo
>
> I know,
> There is no way to repay you
> Whatever it takes
> I will try to
> The rest of my life I will
> Thank you
> Thank you, thank you
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
-BEN
>to why folks insisted on demonizing Yoko....
I really can't see how saying Yoko had a couple of affairs equates to
"demonising" her. What do you think John did about 300 hunred times in
his life? Why is it alright to say John did it, but if Yoko did it a
couple of times, people are trying to demonise her. It seems like some
Yoko fans are just as touchy as some McCartney fans who used to hang
around here causing trouble.
-BEN
Anders Lee
Chen) wrote:
>In article <36368051...@bright.net>,
>Ben Okuly <luc...@bright.net> wrote:
>>
>>Plus, with this talk of a Wings Anthology coming out, isn't it funny how
>>this whole Lennon thing was rushed to get done? I see it as Yoko saying
>>that she had to have it done first and be the best and all that stuff.
>
>For the record, the "Lennon Anthology" (not with that title) has been in
>preparation for at least five years. Work was proceeding on it at the same
>time "The Beatles Anthology" was in preparation. No "rushing" there.
>
Does antbody knows if the multi-track master of Lennon already
contains that horrible hollow sound of Spector already? (So at last
we can have better Lennon recording?)
Or is it already told that Lennon Anthology doesn't have remixed
tracks at all??
Amaranth56
>Amaranth56 wrote:
>>
>> Creston" <cre...@nospam.ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> >Let me guess "The Lives Of John Lennon", by Mr Albert Goldman?
>>
>> Also Frederic Seaman, who has an almost equally bad rep here.
>> Nevertheless, he practically lived with John and Yoko.
>
>Uh, wasn't he a gofer running errands from the office?
He was their personal assistant. And yes, that included running errands.
However, if you're implying that he spent little or no time in the offices and
even bedrooms themselves, that's not accurate. Seaman was often with John and
Yoko, and was present at many conversations. If people choose not to believe
him, fine; that's not the point here.
>John and Yoko, on the other hand, practically *were* John and Yoko.
>Theirs were the lives being lived, theirs the motivation to try and
>be together, and theirs alone each of the challenges that commitment
>faced. Theirs and theirs alone the heartbreak, should they fail.
>
>Amazing how that alone seems to stamp them as liars to many here.
Yoko has proven herself to be a liar. In this particular instance, I believe
she's telling the truth, so your statement is irrelvant in this particular
context.
As long as we're on the subject, it's common knowledge that John also lied. I
wish I could remember the question, but one interviewer noted that John had
said just the opposite on another occasion. John said, flat out, "I lied."
I'm drawing a blank here, but John's told several lies in interviews. I
believe almost all celebrities do. And I don't blame them.
>After all, they couldn't have simply been a partnership of admittedly
>imperfect human beings, making their best clumsy attempts at finding
>happiness and sanctuary together, sometimes succeeding, other times
>failing, and trying again. It *must* have been far more sinister than
>that. And we, the betrayed, surely have a right to know.
You're missing the point here. Yoko opened the door. And she's telling
truths, but not the whole truth. She's painting a portrait of John as the
cruel husband, and herself as the loving, sacrificing wife who made John grow
up and repent his chauvinist ways. As we celebrate John as a man and musician,
must we also see be subjected to seeing degraded as a husband BY HIS OWN WIFE
while Yoko elevates herself to the rank of suffering, sacrifical lamb on the
altar of their marriage?
Read Larry Sloman's version of this incident in "Steal This Dream." If what
Sloman says is true, there's more to it than Yoko is telling us.
Again, Yoko herself opened up this door.
>> Funny how people will believe researched (read "whitewashed") bios,
>> but trash firsthand accounts.
>
>Such as Yoko's, or John's?
It's common knowledge that John often lied in interviews. Yoko now admits
that, in 1966, she did indeed know who the Beatles were, contrary to her
heretofore claims of never having heard of the Beatles before meeting John.
Paul's own testimony refutes that. Yoko met Paul before she met John to ask
for manuscripts of Beatle lyrics to give as a present to John Cage. So she not
only knew who the Beatles were in 1966, but Yoko knew the value of their lyric
manuscripts as well.
>Oops, I forgot again: they don't count. Their lives existed merely
>for our morbid entertainment. Silly of me to forget, really.
>
>Do carry on. At least John no longer has to watch. I used to think
>he was merely paranoid; but my lord, this shit must have hurt him as
>much as he often said it did.
The only one who's trashing John here is The Widow Yoko. Even worse, she's
using the Lennon Anthology to do it.
And you're right. Thank God John isn't here to witness it.
Jim Richard
Amaranth56 <amara...@aol.com> wrote:
>Kent Stewart writes....
>
>>Amaranth56 wrote:
>>>
>As long as we're on the subject, it's common knowledge that John also lied. I
>wish I could remember the question, but one interviewer noted that John had
>said just the opposite on another occasion. John said, flat out, "I lied."
>I'm drawing a blank here, but John's told several lies in interviews. I
>believe almost all celebrities do. And I don't blame them.
That's from the Playboy Interviews (p. 123),
Playboy: But you [John & Paul] didn't compose your stuff separately, as
other accounts have said?
Lennon: No, no, no. I said that, but I was lying.
Jim
Amaranth56
Diana
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I
>>wish I could remember the question, but one interviewer noted that John had
>>said just the opposite on another occasion. John said, flat out, "I
lied."....
hein...@webtv.net
cee...@pacbell.net
I wan't referring to just the affairs....the whole "dragon lady who broke up
the Beatles" bit is what I was referring to.
Seems some Beatle fans are just downright touchy.
I am not causing trouble-and I can hang around as much as I like.
Whats yer beef?
Jeff
welcome back. I haven't seen you around.
Jeff
HEYSS11
the lost weekend, when john was hanging ouit with may. and sam havadtoy, he's
her boyfriend for long, long time, little after john'd passing.
best
heyss
Tom
>
>Yoko has proven herself to be a liar. In this particular instance, I
believe
>she's telling the truth, so your statement is irrelvant in this particular
>context.
>
>As long as we're on the subject, it's common knowledge that John also lied.
Fred Seaman and Albert Goldman also lied. The qestion is, who's lying now?
> Read Larry Sloman's version of this incident in "Steal This Dream." If
what
>Sloman says is true, there's more to it than Yoko is telling us.
How so? I can't think of anything that would have mitigated John's actions
here, regardless of what had been going on between him and Yoko..
>It's common knowledge that John often lied in interviews. Yoko now admits
>that, in 1966, she did indeed know who the Beatles were, contrary to her
>heretofore claims of never having heard of the Beatles before meeting John.
As far as I know, she's never claimed that. She has claimed that she didn't
follow them, or wasn't particularly interested in them, but she didn't say,
"I had never heard of the Beatles before I met John." I don't know where
it's from, but she said she know of them as a phenomeon, the way she knew of
Elvis Presley, without becoming involved in it.
Beth Shorten
HEYSS11 wrote in message <19981030124522...@ng17.aol.com>...
He (Havadtoy) was living with the Lennons prior to John's death and he's
been there since. Hmmm...Let's talk about affairs now...
Don Rife
Yeah, and didn't John have an affair with some Japanese woman in the late
60's too. I still don't know why Yoko had to put this information in the
Lennon Anthology. She should write a book and give her view of what went on.
That would be more appropriate or in an interview or a 'made for TV' movie on
John's life. I forgot she's already done that. The Lennon Anthology should be
for fans of his music.
Don
topt...@my-dejanews.com
"Beth Shorten" <hlnw...@home.com> wrote:
>
> HEYSS11 wrote in message <19981030124522...@ng17.aol.com>...
> >I never knew about sam greene, but spinozza was her boyfriend (i guess)
> during
> >the lost weekend, when john was hanging ouit with may. and sam havadtoy,
> he's
> >her boyfriend for long, long time, little after john'd passing.
> >
> >best
> >heyss
>
> He (Havadtoy) was living with the Lennons prior to John's death and he's
> been there since. Hmmm...Let's talk about affairs now...
>
>
What about all the talk of him being gay?
Amaranth56
>Date: 10/30/98 12:45 PM EST
>Message-id: <19981030124522...@ng17.aol.com>
>
>I never knew about sam greene, but spinozza was her boyfriend (i guess)
>during
>the lost weekend, when john was hanging ouit with may. and sam havadtoy, he's
>her boyfriend for long, long time, little after john'd passing.
According to May Pang, Yoko started chasing after Spinozza in August 1973.
John took up with May the *following* month.
As a point of interest, here's John's version of their separation, via Peter
Shotton:
According to Peter Shotton, contrary to what Yoko would have us believe, John
and Yoko had separated BEFORE John started his "lost" weekend. Yoko was the
first to walk out. The decision to separate was mutual; they had been getting
on each others' nerves. When he spoke to Pete in 1973, John didn't even know
where Yoko was, except that she was "off screwing around." Yoko left FIRST,
before May Pang came into the picture. This was nothing more than a trial
separation.
From "The Beatles Lennon And Me" by Peter Shotton, ppb pp371-2:
In the autumn of 1973, I was surprised and shocked to read press reports that
John and Yoko had separated.... I immediately telephoned [John] at the Dakota,
where one of the first things he said to me was: "Don't believe what you read,
Pete. It's not like they say in the papers.
"Yoko and I have really been getting on each other's nerves lately," he
explained. "We've decided to break up for a year and stay completely apart
from each other. It's no good us just splitting up for a couple of weeks;
we're going to try and hold out for an entire year to see what the strength of
our feeling for each other really is."
"So where's Yoko now, then?" I wondered.
"Oh, she's just gone off screwing around," said John.
"Well, how do you feel about all this, John?"
"I'm not exactly over the moon about it," he admitted. "But it's just gotta
be done."
John's very presence at the Dakota that day certainly seems to contradict
subsequent accounts of Yoko "throwing him out" of the house. Eventually,
however, she did move back into their luxury apartment, while John took off on
his ill-starred "Sinbad's voyage" to California, in the company of Yoko's young
secretary, May Pang.
END OF EXCERPT
Tom
>True, about John. However, we don't know what may have happened that would
>have prompted John to act so cruelly. As you say, nothing would warrant
it.
>But he just may have been angry at something. We don't know.
>
I'd guess he was. No matter how much leeway they gave the other about
infidelity, what he did was pretty hurtful. I can't imagine someone doing it
and thinking it'd be OK.
>>>It's common knowledge that John often lied in interviews. Yoko now
admits
>>>that, in 1966, she did indeed know who the Beatles were, contrary to her
>>>heretofore claims of never having heard of the Beatles before meeting
John.
>>
>>As far as I know, she's never claimed that. She has claimed that she
didn't
>>follow them, or wasn't particularly interested in them, but she didn't
say,
>>"I had never heard of the Beatles before I met John." I don't know where
>>it's from, but she said she know of them as a phenomeon, the way she knew
of
>>Elvis Presley, without becoming involved in it.
>
>Yes, that was in a very recent interview, maybe 1 or 2 weeks ago. Before
that,
>in 1995, she said the only Beatle she knew was Ringo because of his nose.
I didn't see that interview. I read it in a book called "Beatles Quotations"
or something like that. It's a collection of quotes from the Beatles and
various subject. Unfortunately there're no dates in it.
When I read that she only knew about Ringo, in Lennon Remembers, I took it
as image making on her and John's part, building up the "Avant Garde artist"
mystique. I haven't seen the 95 interview, is it online? But the line
"because of his nose" sounds more like a joke than an attempt to decieve. I
couldn't say for sure without seeing the context though.
A while back, someone on the mailing list mentioned something about Yoko
being intrigued by John's art before she met him. Again, I don't know where
she said this, but it was at least two or three years ago.
>However, Paul's been telling for years about Yoko coming to *him* before
John,
>to ask for Beatle lyric manuscripts to give to John Cage. It was Paul who
>suggested to Yoko that she meet John. So Yoko not only knew who the
Beatles
>were, she knew the value of their handwritten lyrics. And she met Paul
before
>she met John.
>
This is one of the reasons I think that the story about her only knowing who
Ringo was is something they made up for PR. Since she met Paul before she
met John, it seems likely that Paul would have mentioned something after
John met her, just in the course of normal conversation. "I met this weird
artist" "Oh, I know her, she came to see me the other week"
Her visiting Paul only proves that she knew who he was, it doesn't really
contradict what she said about not being involved in the phenomenon. It's
possible that she asked for the manuscripts because they were famous and
lived nearby.
>Kaprow, a friend of Tony Cox, said that Yoko had designs on John months
before
>they actually met. Not a rich person; not a Beatle. John Lennon in
>particular. (See Jerry Hopkin's "Yoko")
>
Yoko has denied some of the stories in that book. I think that's where the
story about her going to see The Beatles in Japan comes from. In a recent
interview, she said that was untrue.
-BEN
>I wan't referring to just the affairs....the whole "dragon lady who
>broke up the Beatles" bit is what I was referring to.
I thought we we're talking about it in relation to her affairs, not the
whole picture, sorry for any confusion I caused. Btw, I don't blame her
for the break up any more than you do. It was inevitable, & I think
moving on at that point did many of them good.
-BEN
Amaranth56
>>Yoko has proven herself to be a liar. In this particular instance, I
>believe
>>she's telling the truth, so your statement is irrelvant in this particular
>>context.
>>
>>As long as we're on the subject, it's common knowledge that John also lied.
>
>Fred Seaman and Albert Goldman also lied. The qestion is, who's lying now?
I posted an excerpt from Peter Shotton's book wherein he gives John's version
of just before the "lost" weekend. It contradicts Yoko's.
>> Read Larry Sloman's version of this incident in "Steal This Dream." If
>what
>>Sloman says is true, there's more to it than Yoko is telling us.
>
>How so? I can't think of anything that would have mitigated John's actions
>here, regardless of what had been going on between him and Yoko..
True, about John. However, we don't know what may have happened that would
have prompted John to act so cruelly. As you say, nothing would warrant it.
But he just may have been angry at something. We don't know.
As for Sloman, he states that Yoko spent that night alone with Jerry Rubin
(it's not clear if they had sex). Kinda what Cynthia did the day she
discovered Yoko in her kitchen, wearing Cyn's robe, with Cyn's husband; Cyn
then had a one-nighter with Alex Mardis. Maybe there really is such a thing as
karma. You marry a cheater who treats his wife as John treated Cyn, and Yoko
got similar treatment.
>>It's common knowledge that John often lied in interviews. Yoko now admits
>>that, in 1966, she did indeed know who the Beatles were, contrary to her
>>heretofore claims of never having heard of the Beatles before meeting John.
>
>As far as I know, she's never claimed that. She has claimed that she didn't
>follow them, or wasn't particularly interested in them, but she didn't say,
>"I had never heard of the Beatles before I met John." I don't know where
>it's from, but she said she know of them as a phenomeon, the way she knew of
>Elvis Presley, without becoming involved in it.
Yes, that was in a very recent interview, maybe 1 or 2 weeks ago. Before that,
in 1995, she said the only Beatle she knew was Ringo because of his nose.
However, Paul's been telling for years about Yoko coming to *him* before John,
to ask for Beatle lyric manuscripts to give to John Cage. It was Paul who
suggested to Yoko that she meet John. So Yoko not only knew who the Beatles
were, she knew the value of their handwritten lyrics. And she met Paul before
she met John.
Kaprow, a friend of Tony Cox, said that Yoko had designs on John months before
they actually met. Not a rich person; not a Beatle. John Lennon in
particular. (See Jerry Hopkin's "Yoko")
According to Peter Shotton, John asked Peter to teach Yoko about the Beatles
because "She doesn't even know who's who!" ("The Beatles Lennon And Me, ppb,
p327) Yet Yoko admitted to having known who Ringo was, and she obviously knew
Paul. If Kaprow is correct, she knew John as well.
Danny Caccavo
amara...@aol.com (Amaranth56) wrote:
> You're missing the point here. Yoko opened the door. And she's telling
> truths, but not the whole truth. She's painting a portrait of John as the
> cruel husband, and herself as the loving, sacrificing wife who made John grow
> up and repent his chauvinist ways. As we celebrate John as a man and
musician,
> must we also see be subjected to seeing degraded as a husband BY HIS OWN WIFE
> while Yoko elevates herself to the rank of suffering, sacrifical lamb on the
> altar of their marriage?
Frankly, I'm so appalled by those liner notes it makes me want to pass up
on buying the set. Somehow, Yoko always manages to do something like this
- it's as if she's from another planet, and doesn't understand human
nature or something...
DC
--
Danny Caccavo (dan...@interport.net)
"Hey, Bee-atle - we shall have fun, eh?"
Mystic Seven
> Before
>that,
>>in 1995, she said the only Beatle she knew was Ringo because of his nose.
>
As I remember, she knew of Ringo because it's Japanese for apple. Or
was THIS yet another rumour?
Tom
>Frankly, I'm so appalled by those liner notes it makes me want to pass up
>on buying the set. Somehow, Yoko always manages to do something like this
>- it's as if she's from another planet, and doesn't understand human
>nature or something...
Maybe she's wrapped up in her own problems (she said that going through the
taps brought back a lot of memories and reliving that incident must have
been fairly unpleasant) and she used the notes as an opportunity to work
through those issues rather than as a tribute to John. Maybe it was just how
she honestly saw the marriage, that it was great, with one large blotch
ruining it. She has mentioned this before (again, when she was reliving the
era for her own reissues) and she presents this as an isolated incident,
rather than saying "John was horrible, he did this to me, then he did this"
and so on.
She also seems like she's making excuses for him at times, he was drunk, he
was very sorry afterwards. Imagining someone other than Yoko in that
situation, this doesn't seem like a very healthy response. All that's
missing is "It was really my fault."
Or maybe after 20 years, she's just sick of talking about what John was like
and thought a "warts and all" response would shut people up. guessing at
other people motivations isn't very fruitful, though it makes an
entertaining diversion at times.
That said, this was an inappropriate forum for her to tell the story because
her feelings about the incident will change, but putting the notes in the
set gives them some permenance.
na
Danny Caccavo wrote in message ...
>In article <19981030034713...@ng33.aol.com>,
>amara...@aol.com (Amaranth56) wrote:
>
>> You're missing the point here. Yoko opened the door. And she's telling
>> truths, but not the whole truth. She's painting a portrait of John as
the
>> cruel husband, and herself as the loving, sacrificing wife who made John
grow
>> up and repent his chauvinist ways. As we celebrate John as a man and
>musician,
>> must we also see be subjected to seeing degraded as a husband BY HIS OWN
WIFE
>> while Yoko elevates herself to the rank of suffering, sacrifical lamb on
the
>> altar of their marriage?
>
>on buying the set. Somehow, Yoko always manages to do something like this
>- it's as if she's from another planet, and doesn't understand human
>nature or something...
yeah shes out of order putting that story on a record release.
Amaranth56
"Ringo" is definitely Japanese for "apple." And now that you (and Tom) have
mentioned it, it's sounding more and more familiar.
HEYSS11
nature or something...
<that's exactly the reason why she's so distinctive, unique, and great Only an
alien could do such a music.>
best
heyss
CaroJ11
>
>Maybe she's wrapped up in her own problems (she said that going through the
>taps brought back a lot of memories and reliving that incident must have
>been fairly unpleasant) and she used the notes as an opportunity to work
It makes one think.
Do you remember the Sean interview earlier this year when he mentioned his
father was a "womanizer?" Methinks he learned this at Mama's knee, and I find
that curious at best. A parent usually deifies a dead father to his surviving
children---unless doing so makes oneself look like the bad girl in the mix.
I wonder if now that Yoko's 65, she, like the rest of us, is most concerned
with how her son sees his mother. ( How about her getting it on with John in
the back seat of a limo while they both were married, her chaining herself to
his fence, her neglect of Kyoko, her brawls with Tony, and more and worse.
Tthe list goes on.) IMO she's now a little embarrassed about all that free wild
life. Who knows how much Sean has read? What about her alleged illicit affairs?
What about her and John's alleged sexual problems? Altogether true or not, the
overall picture is not an attractive one.
For once I can't say that I blame Yoko. Putting all this on liner notes is
disreputable, but I can understand her attempts to justify some of the sordid
scenes in her marriage. Although not in her league, I too led the wild 60s
life, but since no one's written it up, my son isn't likely to call me on any
of it. My mama image will remain unstained.
We are the first generation to be confronted with this, are we not? My mother
was a fairly innocent young girl who after a few pleasant dates with her G.I.,
married and led an unspectacular life. That's not entirely true with me, and,
maybe like Yoko, at 65 I'm NOT going to want to my son and grandchildren seeing
me the way I really was. "The times were different then" doesn't really cut it.
I'll probably be doing some rewriting of my own.
And that, folks, is what I think Yoko is doing now. ---CarolJ
Danny Caccavo
(HEYSS11) wrote:
Well, ok, so are you saying that she makes a good artist, but not a good person?
Tom
>It makes one think.
>Do you remember the Sean interview earlier this year when he mentioned his
>father was a "womanizer?" Methinks he learned this at Mama's knee, and I
find
>that curious at best. A parent usually deifies a dead father to his
surviving
>children---unless doing so makes oneself look like the bad girl in the mix.
>
>I wonder if now that Yoko's 65, she, like the rest of us, is most concerned
>with how her son sees his mother. ( How about her getting it on with John
in
>the back seat of a limo while they both were married, her chaining herself
to
>his fence, her neglect of Kyoko, her brawls with Tony, and more and worse.
>Tthe list goes on.) IMO she's now a little embarrassed about all that free
wild
>life. Who knows how much Sean has read? What about her alleged illicit
affairs?
>What about her and John's alleged sexual problems? Altogether true or not,
the
>overall picture is not an attractive one.
I'm having a little trouble seeing how your logic applies in this case,
though your basic premise makes sense, that Yoko may be concerned how her
past appears to Sean.
Why are you assuming the Sean learned all this from Yoko when he hasn't said
anything that 90% of the people on the newsgroup don't already know, mostly
from John's own statements? The only way to read sordid things about Yoko is
in the middle of a book of sordid things about John. Since the pasts of the
two are entwined, (most of the stories you mention also involve John, or he
has equivalent stories in his past) and since, as you say, the overall
picture isn't necessarily true, wouldn't it be simpler for her to put both
their pasts into perspective and not play one against the other?
How does telling this story lessen what Sean might feel about unrelated
incidents that happened prior to it? It's not really rewriting history,
since no one disputes that the incident happened and it doesn't affect
anything Yoko did anything in the sixties.
Anne Bergsma
recommended!
========================
"Well, when I met you at the station
You were standing with a bootleg in your hand"
PMC
-A. Bergsma
-ber...@dds.nl
David Goodwin
(Anne Bergsma) wrote:
>Issued in Holland last Saturday; sounds great; still listening;
>recommended!
ARGHGHGHG!
Why does the US get sublimly screwed over soooo often?;-)
Paul McCartney remasters come out EVERYWHERE but here.
Good versions of the old Who catalogue are ONLY from Germany.
Decent Stones compilations come from Japan/Germany.
Japan gets at least one bonus track on EVERY new CD that comes out.
DAMMIT, GO TO HELL RIAA!^_^
David
na
David Goodwin wrote in message <363d0c41...@news.idt.net>...
>On Sun, 01 Nov 1998 20:46:45 GMT, largely a fun day, ber...@dds.nl
>(Anne Bergsma) wrote:
>
>>Issued in Holland last Saturday; sounds great; still listening;
>>recommended!
>
>
>ARGHGHGHG!
>
>Why does the US get sublimly screwed over soooo often?;-)
its punishment for the things you do:)
HEYSS11
Well, ok, so are you saying that she makes a good artist, but not a good
person?
DC
I didn't say that. I can never be sure what kind of person she is, because I
don't know her closely. But I think her vibes are the best, and her public
persona very respectable.
best
Heyss
Anne Bergsma
recommended!
CaroJ11
>Why are you assuming the Sean learned all this from Yoko when he hasn't said
>anything that 90% of the people on the newsgroup don't already know, mostly
>from John's own statements? The only way to read sordid things about Yoko is
>in the middle of a book of sordid things about John. Since the pasts of the
>two are entwined, (most of the stories you mention also involve John, or he
>has equivalent stories in his past) and since, as you say, the overall
>picture isn't necessarily true, wouldn't it be simpler for her to put both
>their pasts into perspective and not play one against the other?
>
>How does telling this story lessen what Sean might feel about unrelated
>incidents that happened prior to it? It's not really rewriting history,
>since no one disputes that the incident happened and it doesn't affect
I'm assuming Sean learned about John's "womanizing" from Yoko, because first of
all, this certainly wasn't the case in his later years, so it hasn't been a
facet of his personality that biographers have dwelt upon---but a wife might.
And next, even the phrase itself doesn't sound like a boy speaking of his
admired father; it sounds like a wife. (All through Sean's interviews one
infers admiration for his mother, less so for his dad.) Furthermore, from
Yoko's own admission, this singular party incident was not something she could
immediately forgive and get past. And I think she played up this incident to
Sean to better explain John's leaving her, and to equally justify their bizarre
up-and-down marriage when he returned.
All I'm saying here is that John and Yoko were kooky people who had a kooky
marriage and a kooky lifestyle. Sean's surely read about it, and wants some
solid answers. Now that Yoko's an elderly widow she's probably trying to show
herself to Sean in a more respectable light, and to give him solid reasons for
behavior that's unflattering, unrespectable, and difficult to explain..
Let me reiterate here: ALL of us do it. No one I know wants their children
and grandchildren to see them as unrespectable. Whatever we did in the 60s,
those days are long gone, and we're all sober, solid citizens who do not want
to be reminded of the time we went to Woodstock with the Hell's Angels--or some
such thing. It's EMBARRASSING. Fortunately for most of us nobody's written
about these incidents in detail, as they have Yoko, so we have nothing to live
down. She does. ---CarolJ
David Goodwin
<n...@accsoft.com.nospam.au> wrote:
>
>its punishment for the things you do:)
>
>
Oh thanks. Attempt a guilt trip, why don't you...<sniff>.
David
Jim Richard
CaroJ11 <car...@aol.com> wrote:
>I'm assuming Sean learned about John's "womanizing" from Yoko, because first of
>all, this certainly wasn't the case in his later years, so it hasn't been a
>facet of his personality that biographers have dwelt upon---but a wife might.
John Green, Yoko's tarot card reader who knew John from 1975 to 1980, wrote
that John was visiting hookers monthly, at least at some point in this
period.
May Pang wrote that their affair continued after "The Lost Weekend" with
decreasing frequency from 1975 to 1978.
Fred Seaman, who worked as John's personal assistant from early 1979 until
his death, said that John complained about never getting laid. He wrote
and John and Yoko's relationship was very cool, but that John was still
loyal to her, and did not want to jeopardize his marriage by having
affairs.
Elliot Mintz, Yoko's public relations person, said in an interview from
the early 90's that he has informed Sean of most of the claims in these
books so that he would be aware of them, and not learn about them from
strangers. Sean was reportedly angered that people would tell stories
that were untrue or would hurt his mother.
>And next, even the phrase itself doesn't sound like a boy speaking of his
>admired father; it sounds like a wife. (All through Sean's interviews one
>infers admiration for his mother, less so for his dad.) Furthermore, from
>Yoko's own admission, this singular party incident was not something she could
>immediately forgive and get past. And I think she played up this incident to
>Sean to better explain John's leaving her, and to equally justify their bizarre
>up-and-down marriage when he returned.
>
I don't think she is playing up how she feels about the incident. May
Pang wrote that Yoko mentioned the same incident when she asked her to
become John's mistress. Apparently, it was a direct cause of their
separation, even though it took nearly a year before the separation
occurred.
It's interesting that Yoko and May agree that the party incident was
the cause of the separation. It indicates that Yoko's conversation with
May in which Yoko arranged the Lost Weekend really took place. Otherwise,
why would Yoko tell May that this incident caused the separation, or why
would John tell her?
Jim
HEYSS11
John Green, Yoko's tarot card reader who knew John from 1975 to 1980, wrote
that John was visiting hookers monthly, at least at some point in this
period.
<a tarot reader who discloses the secrets of his client is not exactly a
trustworhty person, right? we can never be sure if what he says is true,
because if he is such an asshole to make money on supposed secrets of his
client... disgusting!>
May Pang wrote that their affair continued after "The Lost Weekend" with
decreasing frequency from 1975 to 1978.
<she wrote a book and wanted to make money on john and yoko. not trustworthy
either>
Fred Seaman, who worked as John's personal assistant from early 1979 until
his death, said that John complained about never getting laid. He wrote
and John and Yoko's relationship was very cool, but that John was still
loyal to her, and did not want to jeopardize his marriage by having
affairs.
<this fred seaman is the worst of them all, a man who stole lennon's diaries.>
best
heyss
Tom
>The rich are different.
Yes, they have more money.
Susan Juliano
>All I'm saying here is that John and Yoko were kooky people who had a kooky
>marriage and a kooky lifestyle. Sean's surely read about it, and wants some
>solid answers. Now that Yoko's an elderly widow she's probably trying to show
>herself to Sean in a more respectable light, and to give him solid reasons for
>behavior that's unflattering, unrespectable, and difficult to explain..
The rich are different. The rock and rollers are different.
>
>Let me reiterate here: ALL of us do it. No one I know wants their children
>and grandchildren to see them as unrespectable. Whatever we did in the 60s,
>those days are long gone, and we're all sober, solid citizens who do not want
>to be reminded of the time we went to Woodstock with the Hell's Angels--or some
>such thing. It's EMBARRASSING. Fortunately for most of us nobody's written
>about these incidents in detail, as they have Yoko, so we have nothing to live
>down. She does.
Speak for yourself. :-) I'm not ashamed of anything and I'm proud I wasn't
out of it or a prude.
=====================================================================
Susan Juliano <sjul...@gte.net> "We all shine on." -John Lennon
Strawberry Fields Forever at http://home1.gte.net/sjuliano/index.html
Joe Caldwell
>On 2 Nov 1998 17:44:32 GMT, car...@aol.com (CaroJ11) wrote:
>
>>Let me reiterate here: ALL of us do it. No one I know wants their
children
>>and grandchildren to see them as unrespectable. Whatever we did in the
60s,
>>those days are long gone, and we're all sober, solid citizens who do not
want
>>to be reminded of the time we went to Woodstock with the Hell's Angels--or
some
>>such thing. It's EMBARRASSING. Fortunately for most of us nobody's
written
>>about these incidents in detail, as they have Yoko, so we have nothing to
live
>>down. She does.
>
>Speak for yourself. :-) I'm not ashamed of anything and I'm proud I wasn't
>out of it or a prude.
I'm with Susan on this one. I _was_ at Woodstock...tho not with any Hell's
Angels...and I am *NOT* embarrassed to talk about it. Hell, if I thought
anything I was doing in the 60's was gonna embarrass me later in life, I
wouldn't have done it in the first place. As it is, I personally feel that
learned a lot during the 60's and there isn't anything I did then that I
wouldn't do again today. Uhhh...well, I probably wouldn't marry my 1st wife
again. ;^)
- Joe Caldwell
<yell...@worldnet.att.net>
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
"If you want to see the brave,
look at those that can forgive.
If you want to see the heroic,
look at those who can love
in return for hatred."
~ Bhagavad Gita ~
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
na
Joe Caldwell wrote in message <71lo47$c...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
> there isn't anything I did then that I
>wouldn't do again today. Uhhh...well, I probably wouldn't marry my 1st wife
>again. ;^)
so how many times did you marry her?.... .;)
Tom Nagy
Thanks Yoko.
Tom Nagy
STORMICANS
anyone know if there is a cut on the Anthology that is the same song as opens
the movie Imagine? The movie opener is an acoustic version of Real Love, I
think. Any info out there? Thanks. Will offer my two cents on entire
Anthology in a future post. Tower Records price--$64.00.
Brian9091
Not on the Anthology, but it is the first song on the "Imagine" soundtrack,
which is readily available in stores. It has the same bridge words (mostly) and
melody to the bridge in "Isolation" on Plastic Ono Band
Greg Panfile
where the most interesting music to come out is from a person who has been
dead for nearly eighteen years- Alanis Morrisette excepted I guess.
For you John fans, I have some very Lennon inspired material on my CD, plus
some pretty interesting articles about him that have appeared in Beatlefan,
Off the Beatle Track, and the 910-- along with some song samples-- at my
website, address below.
Strange days indeed...
gpan...@tiac.net
http://www.tiac.net/users/gpanfile
Guru Dave
CD (for in the car).
I must say I am floored. John was always my favorite, and I miss him,
but some of his solo work left me a bit underimpressed. I was afraid I
would be disappointed by the ANTHOLOGY, but I am not.
It is terrific. Buy it.
Regards,
Guru Dave
--
Let us honour if we can The vertical man Though we value
none But the horizontal one.
-- W.H. Auden