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Was Lennon Incompetent?

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paramucho

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Nov 21, 2003, 10:26:38 AM11/21/03
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Was Lennon Competent?

The old chessnut about Lennon being an incompetent musician and
guitarist has hit RMB again. This time the theory is that while he was
okay in the earlier years, he slipped behind the others in the latter
period. The proof is in the pudding, so I've reviewed his
contributions, mostly guitar, to the WHITE ALBUM and ABBEY ROAD.

WHITE ALBUM
===========

BACK IN THE USSR: PM. According to Lewisohn John, Paul and George
played musical chairs on guitar, bass and drums on this track. Lennon
would have played the 3/4 breaks effortlessly and he later recalled
his own bass guitar figures. It's one of the Beatles few late fast
rockers. There's no suggestion that Lennon wasn't keeping up.

DEAR PRUDENCE: JL. Demonstrates Lennon's finger picking style which he
picked up in India from Donovan. Donovan says he was quick, diligent
student. With the dropped D tuning, Lennon's part is demanding and
very clever. He exploits many possibilities of the style. Harrison
plays lead e-guitar with loverly dirty fills and expressive octaves in
the climax. Lennon provides the solo intro and outro.

GLASS ONION: JL. Driven by Lennon's acoustic rhythm guitar, full of
energy from start to finish. Entirely competent.

OB LA DI: PM. Lennon rescued this song with his punchy piano part,
transforming it from a doodle into a tub thumper.

WILD HONEY PIE: PM. A solo effort by Paul.

BUNGALOW BILL: JL. Lennon had to simplify the song for the Beatles to
perform changing sudden chorus 1/4 hiccups into a smoother 2/4 bar. No
lead guitar.

WHILE MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS: GH. Lennon initially played lead on this
track. It was wiped and replaced by Eric Clapton's part. Walt Everett
has located a few fragments of Lennon's original part but there's not
enough there to go on. Harrison was unhappy with the effort made by
*all* the other Beatles on the track.

HAPPINESS: JL. The most complex band track that the Beatles ever
recorded. Lennon finger picks in the first section. He plays the lead
bent swampy lines in the "I need a fix" section. The key to the
"Mother Superior" section is Lennon's barring. Entirely competent.

Lennon or Harrison? The bent lead line is heard on a separate dubbing
track, albiet once rather than twice. Other dubs include an opening
organ part (dropped from the final), tambourine for "Mother Superior"
and piano for the closing section. Listening to the piano in isolation
reminds me of Lennon's voicings for later "Real Life" piano versions.

MARTHA MY DEAR: PM. Another solo effort by Paul (although Ringo may
have played drums).

I'M SO TIRED: JL. I'm unclear on who played what on this track but the
evocative organ is supposed to be John's.

BLACKBIRD: PM. Paul solo.

PIGGIES: GH. Chris Thomas arranged this piece and plays all the leads
on harpsichord. GH on rhythm and PM on bass. Lennon contributed oinks.

ROCKY RACCOON: PM. Lennon plays bass poorly, harmonica effectively and
piano accordion mysteriously on this track. It's GM who adds the piano
solo.

DON'T PASS ME BY: RS. Only Paul contributes to Ringo's track.

WHY DON'T WE DO IT IN THE ROAD: PM. Another solo piece from Paul with
Ringo on drums.

I WILL: PM. A latino doowop effort with Paul on acoustic guitar.
Lennon on woodblocks. It's unclear who played the lead part -- it's
said to be Paul.

JULIA: JL: John Lennon's only completely solo piece for the Beatles,
again exploiting the finger style he learned in India. A sea of
peaceful serene from start to finish. Incompetent?

BIRTHDAY: The only Lennon/McCartney original on the album, nicking a
riff from the Undertakers. Lennon and Harrison duet on guitars pretty
much throughout including the great stop break. I don't notice John
not keeping up here. Great stuff.

YER BLUES: JL. Whether you consider it authentic or not, John shows
his chops on the demo and final. Great licks throughout. It's fairly
certain that he took the first solo in all three versions (Beatles and
the two later with Clapton) and may have taken the second solo on the
Beatles version. Incidently, of the three rock groups that he played
with on this song only the Beatles manage to get the tempo changes
down right. Another of the Beatles' most complex recordings rhythm-
wise.

MOTHER NATURE'S SONG: PM. Another Paul solo effort.

EVERYBODY'S GOT SOMETHING TO HIDE EXCEPT FOR ME AND MY MONKEY. JL. The
only time that the Beatles got close to the radial fluidity of people
like Capt'n Beefheart was on this track which Lennon drives from with
a choppy e-guitar part. This is some the Beatles best playing.
Harrison probably plays those great lead breaks.

SEXY SADIE: JL. After 107 takes the band track was dominated by
McCartney's great piano part. It's not clear who plays the simple
arpeggios in the song or the swampy outro lead guitar dub.

HELTER SKELTER: PM. Not that it really matters, but I don't think it's
clear who plays what on this track except for Ringo. On paper Lennon
is supposed to be playing the bass part and there's nothing
incompetent about that.

LONG LONG LONG: GH. Lennon is the only Beatle missing on this track.
George plays rhythm, Paul plays a great organ part and Chris Thomas
adds piano. A nice track but you'd have to think that Lennon would
have added a bit more punch to it.

REVOLUTION: JL. It seems that Lennon does *all* the guitar work on
this track and probably on the fast version as well. The basic rhythm
part boogies most of the time interlocking with Macca's piano part. A
totally cool acoustic lick at the end of the chorus. Lots of dirty
fills and some classic split sixths. A bit messy in places but
entirely competent. I mean, this is only some of the best fuckin'
music ever recorded and all it's mostly Lennon.

HONEY PIE: PM. Lennon mightn't have liked releasing Paul's cheesy
stuff but he always seems to have enjoyed playing on them. Likewise he
might have professed a dislike for Jazz but he apparently played the
intro lead and Django-like solo on this track as well as supplying the
thirties-style banjo-like rhythm guitar. That's not surprising when
you remember that it was Lennon who used to play lead on their send up
of the Harry Lime Theme (I almost wrote Harry Potter)(which I've never
seen)(I mean, who needs a pintsized Dr Who). Walt Everett thinks that
Paul later dubbed the lead guitar parts but you can hear Lennon
playing similar things in his seventies home tapes.

SAVOY TRUFFLE: GH. George plays e-piano on this track leaving the
grungy e-guitar rhythm part to Lennon. (A closer listen shows the bent
unisons as separate from Lennon's rhythm part). I don't hear any
incompetence here.

CRY BABY CRY: JL. Lennon plays acoustic rhythm (his great "A Day In
The Life" broad strumming style) on the band track later adding piano
and probably the leads. Martin dubbed some harmonium on the intro.

REVOLUTION 9: JL. A Lennon solo effort (with some spoken dialogue from
George). In terms of musical complexity only Lennon could have done
this track.

GOODNIGHT: JL. Sung by Starr and orchestrated by Martin. It's still
unclear who plays the piano part in the demo.

HEY JUDE: PM. The band track is largely Paul on piano, John on
acoustic and drums. George was more or less banned from the track.

REVOLUTION: JL. Again, almost all the ravishing guitar work on the
fast version of "Revolution" appears to be from Mr Lennon. What else
do I need to add. It redefined the word "blistering".

ABBEY ROAD
==========

COME TOGETHER: JL. George plays the great rhythm part on the band
track. It's unclear whether it was John or George, or both, doing the
solo and/or outro. May Pang says that John demonstrated some of these
leads to her. In any case, great playing.

SOMETHING: GH. Lennon's piano part dominated the band track however
most of it was mixed out in the final. Harrison plays the superb
leads.

MAXWELL'S SILVER HAMMER: PM. It has long been thought that Paul played
the piano on the band track however it seems more likely that it was
John with Paul on bass. The fancy piano flourishs were dubbed. George
probably plays the leads.

OH! DARLING: PM. Lennon definitely plays piano on this track, great
manic chording and bass parts. One of the best Beatle piano tracks
with Lennon handling the Fats Domino department.

OCTOPUS'S GARDEN: Lennon uses his finger picking style on a doowop
rocker for a change and helps out with the Goon section. George
probably plays the leads.

I WANT YOU: JL. Lennon plays the e-guitar leads and thus solo
(although the shine on the intro guitar lead sounds more like George).
This is a spectacular part, really making the guitar speak. One of the
best leads of all the Beatles' work. Another fabulous riff from John.

HERE COMES THE SUN: GH. Lennon does not play. This about the only
Harrison track with those 3/8 and 5/8 bars.

BECAUSE: JL. Lennon is the only Beatle playing on the band track,
along with George Martin (and Ringo tapping out a click track).
Another great guitar lick. Clearly one of the Beatles' most
sophisticated songs (and Paul and George's clear favorite on the
album).

YOU NEVER GIVE ME YOUR MONEY. PM. Lennon and Harrison work together on
this track according to some. Others think that it's Harrison alone
using dubs. This is a good place to address the logic of the "it
couldn't be Lennon because Lennon couldn't play like this" argument.
It's called a tautology. Anyway, Everett has Lennon on the opening
fills ("you never give"), playing the low bendy bits on "magic
feeling", duetting with George in the instrumental break and playing
the outro riff.

SUN KING: JL. Another split lead between John and George. George plays
the opening "Albatross" things, Lennon fills with his finger-picking
style. It's unclear who does the fills in the "here comes the sun
king" section.

MEAN MR. MUSTARD: JL. Lennon plays acoustic guitar and dubs piano on
this with George on e-guitar. Lennon drives the solo with his Bo
Diddley chording. I guess it's George on the solo.

BATHROOM WINDOW: PM. Same as above.

GOLDEN SLUMBERS: PM. Lennon was in hospital when this was made. George
would have played the rhythm part and the lines under "Carry That
Weight" and the close.

THE END: PM. It's unclear who played what on the band track but the
combatants in the final three-way guitar shootout are utterly clear.
Paul's parts are all simple single-line things, each of his three
entries in the same style. George demonstrates his new found
brilliance on lead with some glistening attacks. Lennon provides three
unique entries, each fully exploiting a particular guitar technique
and with his final two-way triplet powerhouse closing the shootout.

I don't see John slipping behind here.

Or anywhere.

--

All follow-ups are directed to the newsgroup rec.music.beatles.moderated.
If your follow-up more properly belongs in the unmoderated newsgroup, please
change your headers appropriately. -- the moderators

Dog Ghost bark

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Nov 21, 2003, 12:27:40 PM11/21/03
to
i...@beathoven.com (paramucho) wrote

WHY DON'T WE DO IT IN THE ROAD: PM. >>Another solo piece from Paul with
Ringo on drums<<

Wasn't it Paul who played every instrument,
including drums?

>>YER BLUES: JL. Whether you consider it authentic or not, John shows
his chops on the demo and final. Great licks throughout. It's fairly
certain that he took the first solo in all three versions (Beatles and
the two later with Clapton) and may have taken the second solo on the
Beatles version.<<

I saw Clapton say on "60 Minutes" when asked
what other songs did he play on the "White album" He replied "Guitar
gently weeps &
that's it"

Not that this adds to the discussion Much.

Donz5

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Nov 21, 2003, 1:29:37 PM11/21/03
to
DogGhostBark wrote:

>[Ian:]

>>>YER BLUES: JL. Whether you consider it authentic or not, John shows
his chops on the demo and final. Great licks throughout. It's fairly
certain that he took the first solo in all three versions (Beatles and
the two later with Clapton) and may have taken the second solo on the
Beatles version.<<

>I saw Clapton say on "60 Minutes" when asked
>what other songs did he play on the "White album" He replied "Guitar
gently weeps &
>that's it"

Ian's referring to Clapton playing the song with John on "Rock and Roll Circus"
in December '69 and the Toronto Rock 'n' Roll Revival nine months later.


goFab.com

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Nov 21, 2003, 2:11:21 PM11/21/03
to
On 21 Nov 2003 09:26:38 -0600, in article
<3fbdcb35...@news.ozemail.com.au>, paramucho stated:

>GLASS ONION: JL. Driven by Lennon's acoustic rhythm guitar, full of
>energy from start to finish. Entirely competent.

On of the clearest previews (along with HIAWG) of the cutting guitar style later
heard on POB.

>OB LA DI: PM. Lennon rescued this song with his punchy piano part,
>transforming it from a doodle into a tub thumper.

That opening piano part is actually quite clever.

>WHILE MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS: GH. Lennon initially played lead on this
>track. It was wiped and replaced by Eric Clapton's part. Walt Everett
>has located a few fragments of Lennon's original part but there's not
>enough there to go on. Harrison was unhappy with the effort made by
>*all* the other Beatles on the track.

It's basically the same song as 25 or 6 to 4, but much slower. Slow tempos were
never Ringo's strong suit.

>HAPPINESS: JL. The most complex band track that the Beatles ever
>recorded. Lennon finger picks in the first section. He plays the lead
>bent swampy lines in the "I need a fix" section. The key to the
>"Mother Superior" section is Lennon's barring. Entirely competent.
>
>Lennon or Harrison? The bent lead line is heard on a separate dubbing
>track, albiet once rather than twice. Other dubs include an opening
>organ part (dropped from the final), tambourine for "Mother Superior"
>and piano for the closing section. Listening to the piano in isolation
>reminds me of Lennon's voicings for later "Real Life" piano versions.

That moody guitar in the opening section is my single favorite Beatles moment.

>MARTHA MY DEAR: PM. Another solo effort by Paul (although Ringo may
>have played drums).

Paul played the brass? ;-)

>
>I'M SO TIRED: JL. I'm unclear on who played what on this track but the
>evocative organ is supposed to be John's.

Enough competency is displayed in the vocals on this track, never mind the
instrumental playing.

>ROCKY RACCOON: PM. Lennon plays bass poorly, harmonica effectively and
>piano accordion mysteriously on this track. It's GM who adds the piano
>solo.

I prefer to think of the bass part as minimalistic and suited to the song. What
is poor about it?

>DON'T PASS ME BY: RS. Only Paul contributes to Ringo's track.
>
>WHY DON'T WE DO IT IN THE ROAD: PM. Another solo piece from Paul with
>Ringo on drums.
>

Lennon's competence is amply demonstrated by skipping those two!

>JULIA: JL: John Lennon's only completely solo piece for the Beatles,
>again exploiting the finger style he learned in India. A sea of
>peaceful serene from start to finish. Incompetent?

Another song that pre-sages POB. Beautifully played.

>YER BLUES: JL. Whether you consider it authentic or not, John shows
>his chops on the demo and final. Great licks throughout. It's fairly
>certain that he took the first solo in all three versions (Beatles and
>the two later with Clapton) and may have taken the second solo on the
>Beatles version. Incidently, of the three rock groups that he played
>with on this song only the Beatles manage to get the tempo changes
>down right. Another of the Beatles' most complex recordings rhythm-
>wise.

Yeah, this is just a great song.

>EVERYBODY'S GOT SOMETHING TO HIDE EXCEPT FOR ME AND MY MONKEY. JL. The
>only time that the Beatles got close to the radial fluidity of people
>like Capt'n Beefheart was on this track which Lennon drives from with
>a choppy e-guitar part. This is some the Beatles best playing.
>Harrison probably plays those great lead breaks.

Absolutely killer track. Yes, this could be from "Safe as Milk" or "Clear
Spot." Although I detect Beefheartism in other songs, although it was probably
the Beatles influencing the Captain (I can't help but think that songs like SFF,
Yer Blues and HAIWG influenced various parts of Beefheart's approach, including
the segmented, contrasting-part technique he used on a number of songs. In the
case of SFF, it is obvious, as he quotes the song in the great SFF parody
"Beatle Bones 'n' Smokin' Stones").

>REVOLUTION: JL. It seems that Lennon does *all* the guitar work on
>this track and probably on the fast version as well. The basic rhythm
>part boogies most of the time interlocking with Macca's piano part. A
>totally cool acoustic lick at the end of the chorus. Lots of dirty
>fills and some classic split sixths. A bit messy in places but
>entirely competent. I mean, this is only some of the best fuckin'
>music ever recorded and all it's mostly Lennon.

How could you think that the guy who played rhythm on "All My Loving" would not
be up to this?

>HONEY PIE: PM. Lennon mightn't have liked releasing Paul's cheesy
>stuff but he always seems to have enjoyed playing on them. Likewise he
>might have professed a dislike for Jazz but he apparently played the
>intro lead and Django-like solo on this track as well as supplying the
>thirties-style banjo-like rhythm guitar. That's not surprising when
>you remember that it was Lennon who used to play lead on their send up
>of the Harry Lime Theme (I almost wrote Harry Potter)(which I've never
>seen)(I mean, who needs a pintsized Dr Who). Walt Everett thinks that
>Paul later dubbed the lead guitar parts but you can hear Lennon
>playing similar things in his seventies home tapes.

Harry Potter is pretty pointless stuff.

>CRY BABY CRY: JL. Lennon plays acoustic rhythm (his great "A Day In
>The Life" broad strumming style) on the band track later adding piano
>and probably the leads. Martin dubbed some harmonium on the intro.

Maybe should have left this off the album on the theory that one Bungalow Bill
was enough? Or vice versa perhaps?

>REVOLUTION 9: JL. A Lennon solo effort (with some spoken dialogue from
>George). In terms of musical complexity only Lennon could have done
>this track.

As I've pointed out before, when you rip this track and examine it on your
computer, you can actually see John working the faders on this.

>I WANT YOU: JL. Lennon plays the e-guitar leads and thus solo
>(although the shine on the intro guitar lead sounds more like George).
>This is a spectacular part, really making the guitar speak. One of the
>best leads of all the Beatles' work. Another fabulous riff from John.

I think this is the song where David Gilmour learned how to play.

DUDE! YOU FORGOT POLYTHENE PAM!!!!!!!

goFab.com

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Nov 21, 2003, 2:14:51 PM11/21/03
to
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:27:40 -0600 (CST), in article
<3380-3FB...@storefull-2272.public.lawson.webtv.net>, Dog Ghost bark
stated:


I think he was talking about later live version of the song, e.g. live peace in
torontissimo.

Dog Ghost bark

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Nov 21, 2003, 2:25:07 PM11/21/03
to

do...@aol.com wrote:
>>Ian's referring to Clapton playing the song with John on "Rock and
Roll Circus" in December '69 and the Toronto Rock 'n' Roll Revival nine
months later<<

Ian wrote: >>And may have taken the second solo of the Beatles version<<

This is what I was refering to Don. Ian mentions "Beatles". Sorry but
I'm confused.

--
You've got mail.
http://www.angel9oh7.com/gotmail.html
Audio:http://www.angel9oh7.com/youvegot.mid


Donz5

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Nov 21, 2003, 2:40:53 PM11/21/03
to
DogGhostBark wrote:

> do...@aol.com wrote:
>>Ian's referring to Clapton playing the song with John on "Rock and
Roll Circus" in December '69 and the Toronto Rock 'n' Roll Revival nine
months later<<

Ian wrote: >>And may have taken the second solo of the Beatles version<<

>This is what I was refering to Don. Ian mentions "Beatles". Sorry but
I'm confused.

Ah, sorry; the confusion was mine. You're right -- Clapton's not on the White
Album version of the song.

Sir Barb

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Nov 21, 2003, 9:01:53 PM11/21/03
to

"Dog Ghost bark" <DogGhostB...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8836-3FB...@storefull-2271.public.lawson.webtv.net...

>
> do...@aol.com wrote:
> >>Ian's referring to Clapton playing the song with John on "Rock and
> Roll Circus" in December '69 and the Toronto Rock 'n' Roll Revival nine
> months later<<
>
> Ian wrote: >>And may have taken the second solo of the Beatles version<<
>
> This is what I was refering to Don. Ian mentions "Beatles". Sorry but
> I'm confused.

This is what was written:


"John shows his chops on the demo and final. Great licks throughout. It's
fairly certain that he took the first solo in all three versions (Beatles

and the two later with Clapton) and may have taken the second solo on the
Beatles version."
The "he" in question is referring to John, not Clapton. I don't see how it
could have been more clear.


Message has been deleted

Donz5

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Nov 21, 2003, 9:27:39 PM11/21/03
to
Joe wrote:

>You've obviously put a lot of effort into this. Good for you!

You just can't help yourself, can you?

dlarsson

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Nov 21, 2003, 9:46:58 PM11/21/03
to

Not to quibble, but a few clarifications to the summary below:


> WHITE ALBUM
> ===========
>
> BACK IN THE USSR: PM. According to Lewisohn John, Paul and George
> played musical chairs on guitar, bass and drums on this track. Lennon
> would have played the 3/4 breaks effortlessly and he later recalled
> his own bass guitar figures. It's one of the Beatles few late fast
> rockers. There's no suggestion that Lennon wasn't keeping up.
>
> DEAR PRUDENCE: JL. Demonstrates Lennon's finger picking style which he
> picked up in India from Donovan. Donovan says he was quick, diligent
> student. With the dropped D tuning, Lennon's part is demanding and
> very clever. He exploits many possibilities of the style. Harrison
> plays lead e-guitar with loverly dirty fills and expressive octaves in
> the climax. Lennon provides the solo intro and outro.
>
> GLASS ONION: JL. Driven by Lennon's acoustic rhythm guitar, full of
> energy from start to finish. Entirely competent.

Lennon's ending for this song ( psychedelic, dripping strings ) is also
similar to the surrealism he employs on "I Am The Walrus", "A Day In
The Life".

> OB LA DI: PM. Lennon rescued this song with his punchy piano part,
> transforming it from a doodle into a tub thumper.
>

> BUNGALOW BILL: JL. Lennon had to simplify the song for the Beatles to
> perform changing sudden chorus 1/4 hiccups into a smoother 2/4 bar. No
> lead guitar.
>
> WHILE MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS: GH. Lennon initially played lead on this
> track. It was wiped and replaced by Eric Clapton's part. Walt Everett
> has located a few fragments of Lennon's original part but there's not
> enough there to go on. Harrison was unhappy with the effort made by
> *all* the other Beatles on the track.

Lennon was on bass guitar for the recording.

> HAPPINESS: JL. The most complex band track that the Beatles ever
> recorded. Lennon finger picks in the first section. He plays the lead
> bent swampy lines in the "I need a fix" section. The key to the
> "Mother Superior" section is Lennon's barring. Entirely competent.
>
> Lennon or Harrison? The bent lead line is heard on a separate dubbing
> track, albiet once rather than twice. Other dubs include an opening
> organ part (dropped from the final), tambourine for "Mother Superior"
> and piano for the closing section. Listening to the piano in isolation
> reminds me of Lennon's voicings for later "Real Life" piano versions.

The deep electric guitar bends are Lennon with his Epiphone Casino & P90
pickups.

> I'M SO TIRED: JL. I'm unclear on who played what on this track but the
> evocative organ is supposed to be John's.

Lennon plays the acoustic rythmn ... nice part.

> PIGGIES: GH. Chris Thomas arranged this piece and plays all the leads
> on harpsichord. GH on rhythm and PM on bass. Lennon contributed oinks.

> JULIA: JL: John Lennon's only completely solo piece for the Beatles,


> again exploiting the finger style he learned in India. A sea of
> peaceful serene from start to finish. Incompetent?
>
> BIRTHDAY: The only Lennon/McCartney original on the album, nicking a
> riff from the Undertakers. Lennon and Harrison duet on guitars pretty
> much throughout including the great stop break. I don't notice John
> not keeping up here. Great stuff.
>
> YER BLUES: JL. Whether you consider it authentic or not, John shows
> his chops on the demo and final. Great licks throughout. It's fairly
> certain that he took the first solo in all three versions (Beatles and
> the two later with Clapton) and may have taken the second solo on the
> Beatles version. Incidently, of the three rock groups that he played
> with on this song only the Beatles manage to get the tempo changes
> down right. Another of the Beatles' most complex recordings rhythm-
> wise.

> EVERYBODY'S GOT SOMETHING TO HIDE EXCEPT FOR ME AND MY MONKEY. JL. The


> only time that the Beatles got close to the radial fluidity of people
> like Capt'n Beefheart was on this track which Lennon drives from with
> a choppy e-guitar part. This is some the Beatles best playing.
> Harrison probably plays those great lead breaks.

The guitar work from Lennon & Harrison is great on this track.
Very underrated.

> SEXY SADIE: JL. After 107 takes the band track was dominated by
> McCartney's great piano part. It's not clear who plays the simple
> arpeggios in the song or the swampy outro lead guitar dub.

Lennon on acoustic rythmn

> HELTER SKELTER: PM. Not that it really matters, but I don't think it's
> clear who plays what on this track except for Ringo. On paper Lennon
> is supposed to be playing the bass part and there's nothing
> incompetent about that.

Is there a version with Lennon singing this?
I'd like to hear that. I assume it is either Lennon
or Martin on the piano for this track

> HEY JUDE: PM. The band track is largely Paul on piano, John on
> acoustic and drums. George was more or less banned from the track.

John on acoustic, Ringo on drums, George on Bass


> REVOLUTION: JL. Again, almost all the ravishing guitar work on the
> fast version of "Revolution" appears to be from Mr Lennon. What else
> do I need to add. It redefined the word "blistering".

It is a "Chuck Berry-meets-Jimmy Hendrix" rock guitar masterpiece.


> ABBEY ROAD
> ==========
>
> COME TOGETHER: JL. George plays the great rhythm part on the band
> track. It's unclear whether it was John or George, or both, doing the
> solo and/or outro. May Pang says that John demonstrated some of these
> leads to her. In any case, great playing.

I'd be willing to wager it was George on lead and John on rythmn,
I know you have your sources, but my ears tell me
George solo - John chunky rythmn (and it fits their styles)

> SOMETHING: GH. Lennon's piano part dominated the band track however
> most of it was mixed out in the final. Harrison plays the superb
> leads.

> OH! DARLING: PM. Lennon definitely plays piano on this track, great


> manic chording and bass parts. One of the best Beatle piano tracks
> with Lennon handling the Fats Domino department.

I'd be willing to wager that it is Paul on piano and John doing
the electric guitar arpeggios ... which was a common style of his.

> OCTOPUS'S GARDEN: Lennon uses his finger picking style on a doowop
> rocker for a change and helps out with the Goon section. George
> probably plays the leads.
>
> I WANT YOU: JL. Lennon plays the e-guitar leads and thus solo
> (although the shine on the intro guitar lead sounds more like George).
> This is a spectacular part, really making the guitar speak. One of the
> best leads of all the Beatles' work. Another fabulous riff from John.

> BECAUSE: JL. Lennon is the only Beatle playing on the band track,


> along with George Martin (and Ringo tapping out a click track).
> Another great guitar lick. Clearly one of the Beatles' most
> sophisticated songs (and Paul and George's clear favorite on the
> album).

Lennon on electric guitar.
Quite an involved, musically advanced part.

> YOU NEVER GIVE ME YOUR MONEY. PM. Lennon and Harrison work together on
> this track according to some. Others think that it's Harrison alone
> using dubs. This is a good place to address the logic of the "it
> couldn't be Lennon because Lennon couldn't play like this" argument.
> It's called a tautology. Anyway, Everett has Lennon on the opening
> fills ("you never give"), playing the low bendy bits on "magic
> feeling", duetting with George in the instrumental break and playing
> the outro riff.

I think this is mostly George Harrison

> SUN KING: JL. Another split lead between John and George. George plays
> the opening "Albatross" things, Lennon fills with his finger-picking
> style. It's unclear who does the fills in the "here comes the sun
> king" section.

Lennon's finger-picking bits here runs throughout the whole song.

> MEAN MR. MUSTARD: JL. Lennon plays acoustic guitar and dubs piano on
> this with George on e-guitar. Lennon drives the solo with his Bo
> Diddley chording. I guess it's George on the solo.

> BATHROOM WINDOW: PM. Same as above.

Real nice guitar soloing by George Harrison

> THE END: PM. It's unclear who played what on the band track but the
> combatants in the final three-way guitar shootout are utterly clear.
> Paul's parts are all simple single-line things, each of his three
> entries in the same style. George demonstrates his new found
> brilliance on lead with some glistening attacks. Lennon provides three
> unique entries, each fully exploiting a particular guitar technique
> and with his final two-way triplet powerhouse closing the shootout.
>
> I don't see John slipping behind here.
>
> Or anywhere.


"I was the invisible guitarist"
-John Lennon

"Ask Eric Clapton, he'll tell you. He thinks I can play."
-John Lennon

- Derek

================================
EMail: derek_...@comcast.net
================================


Message has been deleted

Dog Ghost bark

unread,
Nov 21, 2003, 10:26:18 PM11/21/03
to

barbalan...@REMOVEcox.net wrote:
<DogGhostB...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:8836-3FB...@storefull-2271.public.lawson.webtv.net...
    do...@aol.com wrote:
Ian's referring to Clapton playing the song with John on "Rock and
Roll Circus" in December '69 and the Toronto Rock 'n' Roll Revival nine
months later.


Ian wrote: >>And may have taken the second solo of the Beatles version

This is what I was refering to Don. Ian mentions "Beatles". Sorry but
I'm confused.

    >>This is what was written:
"John shows his chops on the demo and final. Great licks throughout.
It's fairly certain that he took the first solo in all three versions
(Beatles and the two later with Clapton) and may have taken the second
solo on the Beatles version."
  The "he" in question is referring to John, not Clapton. I don't
see how it could have been more clear<<

I apologized to Donz, and later he explained to me that I was correct.
Go for it, since you appear to want to be nasty to me. I can take
anything you can dish out.

--
MISSING: Springer, John "Flurry"
http://www.gomcs.org/usa/0198-usa.htm

MISSING: Kathleen Dale Wattley
http://www.missingpeople.net/women/kathleen.htm

Message has been deleted

Donz5

unread,
Nov 21, 2003, 11:39:43 PM11/21/03
to
Joe wrote:

>do...@aol.com (Donz5) wrote in news:20031121212739.27838.00000738@mb-
m06.aol.com:

>>You've obviously put a lot of effort into this. Good for you!
>
>> You just can't help yourself, can you?

>I'm not sure what you mean here. You appear to be choosing to interpret
>negatively what I've written. Why? This comment was intended to express
>sincere admiration, even though paramucho and I disagree on other matters.

Your "Good for you!" implies you're patting him on his head. Ian's done his
homework and deserves candy. That's what your "Good for you!" comment suggests.
It reinforces the condescending nature of your posts. Whether you intended it
or not.

Message has been deleted

RBigbonita

unread,
Nov 21, 2003, 11:55:49 PM11/21/03
to
>> "Ask Eric Clapton, he'll tell you. He thinks I can play."
>> -John Lennon
>
>"Lennon? Nah, the guy can't play! I mean jeez, man, what do you expect me
>to say? The guy's a friend. Besides, bad-mouthing people is the kiss of
>death in the music business!"
>

i'd like to think that this thread isn't a follow up to the mccartney vs lennon
musicianship thread that recently appeared. the debate (as far as i could see)
was whether john or paul was the better musician. regardless of who everyone
chose, i didn't see anyone bash john and say he was incompetent or anything. at
the very least, he could hold his own.

Message has been deleted

robertandrews

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 12:51:00 AM11/22/03
to
"paramucho" <i...@beathoven.com> wrote :

>WHILE MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS: GH. Lennon initially played lead on this
track. It was wiped and replaced by Eric Clapton's part. Walt Everett has
located a few fragments of Lennon's original part but there's not enough
there to go on. Harrison was unhappy with the effort made by *all* the other
Beatles on the track.

But he'd be particular unhappy with John, who wasn't close to being a fluid
soloist. That's what George wanted, & that's why EC got the invite.

By the way, who plays the guitar riff on the studio version of Cold Turkey?
Both John & EC together?

Message has been deleted

Schizoid Man

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 2:00:04 AM11/22/03
to
"paramucho" <i...@beathoven.com> wrote in message
news:3fbdcb35...@news.ozemail.com.au...

> Was Lennon Competent?
>
> The old chessnut about Lennon being an incompetent musician and
> guitarist has hit RMB again. This time the theory is that while he was
> okay in the earlier years, he slipped behind the others in the latter
> period. The proof is in the pudding, so I've reviewed his
> contributions, mostly guitar, to the WHITE ALBUM and ABBEY ROAD.
>

I think you miss the point mate. He was never really known as a guitar
player. Or for that matter, the Beatles were not the pinnacle of
musicianship even in their day.

His is reknowned for his ability as a songwriter. And there he certainly
became better and better as time went on. You're right, the proof is in the
pudding. Compare the early ones to the likes of Revolver, Pepper and Abbey
Road.

no posessions

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 2:02:18 AM11/22/03
to
i...@beathoven.com (paramucho) wrote in message news:<3fbdcb35...@news.ozemail.com.au>...

> Was Lennon Competent?
>
> The old chessnut about Lennon being an incompetent musician and
> guitarist has hit RMB again. This time the theory is that while he was
> okay in the earlier years, he slipped behind the others in the latter
> period.

Bollocks. He started out awright and ended up a master. An absolute
master. The blokes promulgating this "theory" must not have heard
Sometime in New York City. Well they otta.


The proof is in the pudding,

And thats prime tapioca. G'Day mate!

brink

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 2:03:17 AM11/22/03
to

"paramucho" <i...@beathoven.com> wrote in message
news:3fbdcb35...@news.ozemail.com.au...

<snip>

i mostly agree with you ian. lennon was not only musically "competent," the
whole idea of technical skill is overrated in my opinion anyway. give me
songwriting genius, great guitar tone, feel, guts, soul, honesty, and blood
sweat and tears any day over a better "technical" musician. most of
lennon's work *feels* and *sounds* great, especially that late-period
beatles stuff. it was only about 1972 onward where his production and
arrangment sound started to jump the shark and the sound and feel started to
get lost pretty badly.

anyway, here's my comments:

> REVOLUTION 9: JL. A Lennon solo effort (with some spoken dialogue from
> George). In terms of musical complexity only Lennon could have done
> this track.

i disagree, i think this is something paul could have done as well. points
obviously to john for *doing* it, it was innovative and fresh, but not
particularly challenging beyond that for a skilled musician, in my opinion.

> REVOLUTION: JL. Again, almost all the ravishing guitar work on the
> fast version of "Revolution" appears to be from Mr Lennon. What else
> do I need to add. It redefined the word "blistering".

nah, jimi redefined "blistering," though lennon's stuff is great here.

> BECAUSE: JL. Lennon is the only Beatle playing on the band track,
> along with George Martin (and Ringo tapping out a click track).
> Another great guitar lick. Clearly one of the Beatles' most
> sophisticated songs (and Paul and George's clear favorite on the
> album).

mine too, but just ahead of "here comes the sun" and the side two suite.

> MEAN MR. MUSTARD: JL. Lennon plays acoustic guitar and dubs piano on
> this with George on e-guitar. Lennon drives the solo with his Bo
> Diddley chording. I guess it's George on the solo.

there's a solo on this? are you talking about "polythene pam"? you must
be.

Greg Panfile

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 2:06:55 AM11/22/03
to
Nice job by Ian hopefully slaying this fantasy... it should also be noted
that just watching Let It Be demolishes it, for example, John is clearly on
lead guitar and filmed doing so and clearly competent.

There's also all the live Plastic Ono Band material and outtakes and no
guest guitarists on the first solo album, and it is all competent.

And even in 1980 there are numerous tracks where it is clear John is playing
rhythm and singing lead and the band and track cooks... Nobody Told Me, I
Don't Want to Face It are clear examples...

dlarsson

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 2:17:19 AM11/22/03
to

> >>> "Ask Eric Clapton, he'll tell you. He thinks I can play."
> >>> -John Lennon


> Only trying to make the point that Lennon saying that Clapton "thinks he
> can play" really proves nothing - in case Derek Larsson was trying to
> present it as some sort of meaningful endorsement.

There is no basis to declare (simply by fiat) that it is not meaningful.
Lennon was inviting the reporter to go and query Eric Clapton about
his guitar playing for himself because he knew he had a totally
solid reference there. Good reputations from good players
have to be deserved.

Clapton also made an additional comment when asked to join the
Beatles in the studio for While My Guitar Gently Weeps:
"I didn't think they needed any help."

Clearly, this was also an endorsement of the Beatles guitar work
as well.

Clapton is also quite opinionated for your information.
He gave a stinging rebuke of Ed Van Halen's guitar playing
and was very uncomfortable with Van Halen fawning over
him (when he first met him). Apparently, you do have to
earn Clapton's confidence. It is not meaningless.

dlarsson

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 2:17:38 AM11/22/03
to

> >>> "Ask Eric Clapton, he'll tell you. He thinks I can play."
> >>> -John Lennon

> Only trying to make the point that Lennon saying that Clapton "thinks he
> can play" really proves nothing - in case Derek Larsson was trying to
> present it as some sort of meaningful endorsement.

There is no basis to declare (simply by fiat) that it is not meaningful.
Lennon was inviting the reporter to go and query Eric Clapton about
his guitar playing for himself because he knew he had a totally
solid reference there. Good reputations from good players
have to be deserved.

Clapton also made an additional comment when asked to join the
Beatles in the studio for While My Guitar Gently Weeps:
"I didn't think they needed any help."

Clearly, this was also an endorsement of the Beatles guitar work
as well.

Clapton is also quite opinionated for your information.
He gave a stinging rebuke of Ed Van Halen's guitar playing
and was very uncomfortable with Van Halen fawning over
him (when he first met him). Apparently, you do have to
earn Clapton's confidence. It is not meaningless.

dlarsson

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 2:21:07 AM11/22/03
to

> But he'd be particular unhappy with John, who wasn't close to being a
fluid
> soloist. That's what George wanted, & that's why EC got the invite.

Well, Lennon is pretty fluid soloing on "Get Back" so that's not
the reason. EC was brought in to help cool down tensions in the
studio and as George put it: "force the others to behave".

Ehtue

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 2:33:00 AM11/22/03
to
dlarsson writes:

>> WHILE MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS: GH. Lennon initially played lead on
>> this track. It was wiped and replaced by Eric Clapton's part. Walt
>> Everett has located a few fragments of Lennon's original part but
>> there's not enough there to go on. Harrison was unhappy with the
>> effort made by *all* the other Beatles on the track.
>
> Lennon was on bass guitar for the recording.

Lewisohn writes that it's Paul on bass (and it sure sounds like him).
What's your source for Lennon, Derek?

-Ehtue

dlarsson

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 2:51:02 AM11/22/03
to

> His is reknowned for his ability as a songwriter. And there he certainly
> became better and better as time went on. You're right, the proof is in
the
> pudding. Compare the early ones to the likes of Revolver, Pepper and Abbey
> Road.


Well, Lennon played the lead solo in "You Can't Do That" (1964).
He created the "I Feel Fine" riff and the guitar feedback introduction.
He also brought that psuedo-"flamenco" rythmn style to their recordings.
So .. I mean, he had an excellant track record as a guitarist throughout.

The Beatles were, first and fourmost, a GUITAR BAND.
They rescued the guitar, as an instrument, from the obscurity of
bland, boring post-Chuck-Berry/Moore/Perkins 50s & 60s pop/dop-wop
dominated radio and re-established the guitar as THE instrument
and THE sound.

The Beatles deserve some credit for that.
They did not invent rock guitar - but they revived it's potency.
That historical fact - makes the point.

George & John may not have been the "flashiest" or quickest players
but they did have "style" & skill, and what they did do
for the guitar, as an instrument, is no small accomplishment.
The universal appeal of the electric guitar BEGAN with the Beatles.

dlarsson

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 2:51:45 AM11/22/03
to

> > HONEY PIE: ...Walt Everett thinks that


> > Paul later dubbed the lead guitar parts but you can hear Lennon
> > playing similar things in his seventies home tapes.
>

> By the way, I'm with Walt Everett on this one, although admittedly I
> haven't heard the specific home tapes to which you refer. If they contain
> extended passages in which Lennon blows over changes, they might warrant a
> major re-evaluation of the man's facility on guitar! :)

I don't know who "walt everett" is or thinks he is, but he is
irrelevant.

George Harrison specifically indentified John Lennon as the
guy who played the solo in "Honey Pie" in a published interview.
There is no debate about this. It's Lennon's solo.

dlarsson

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 3:00:58 AM11/22/03
to

"Ehtue" <eh...@aa.com> wrote in message
news:Xns943B4AA634...@63.240.76.16...


Because it was recorded essentially as a live performance
in the studio, which is why Clapton was commissioned.

Lead Guitar: Eric Clapton
Acoustic Guitar: George Harrison
Piano: Paul McCartney
Bass: John Lennon (Fender V flat-picked)
Drums: Ringo Starr

Early takes had Lennon on guitar, but for
the album recording someone is flat-picking
the Bass and it ain't Paul (piano) and it ain't
George (acoustic) and John was at that session.

Mister Charlie

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 3:27:05 AM11/22/03
to
"dlarsson" <derek_...@comcast.net> wrote in
news:_IEvb.274940$Fm2.287692@attbi_s04:

>
>

Apparently not:

George Harrison: Yeah, Eric just played that, you know, live as we
were figuring out the song. Paul played piano on the original
record in 1967. There was Ringo on drums. I don't believe John was
there. I played acoustic guitar, Paul played piano, Ringo on drums
and Eric played live with us, and then Paul overdubbed the bass
later. So Eric just made up the guitar part spontaneously."

-George Harrison, Paul Cashmere UNDERCOVER 1996

no posessions

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 3:30:06 AM11/22/03
to
Joe Silver <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<cPAvb.14520$Wy4....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> "dlarsson" <derek_...@comcast.net> wrote in
> news:C6Avb.267796$HS4.2393365@attbi_s01:
>
>
> > "Ask Eric Clapton, he'll tell you. He thinks I can play."
> > -John Lennon
>
> "Lennon? Nah, the guy can't play! I mean jeez, man, what do you expect me
> to say? The guy's a friend. Besides, bad-mouthing people is the kiss of
> death in the music business!"

LOL!!!!

Yeah right. John was incompetent. An incompetent man wrote Help. An
incompetent man wrote songs for his mum. An incompetent man asked us
all to imagine.

Incompetent? Sheesh.

slogan

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 4:38:44 AM11/22/03
to

"dlarsson"
<derek_...@comcast.net>wrotenews:C6Avb.267796$HS4.2393365@attbi_s01...

>
>> >
> > WHILE MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS: GH. Lennon initially played lead on this
> > track. It was wiped and replaced by Eric Clapton's part. Walt Everett
> > has located a few fragments of Lennon's original part but there's not
> > enough there to go on. Harrison was unhappy with the effort made by
> > *all* the other Beatles on the track.
>
> Lennon was on bass guitar for the recording.

According to George Harrison and other documentation Paul did the bass and
the piano.

robertandrews

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 5:55:02 AM11/22/03
to
"paramucho" <i...@beathoven.com> wrote:
>OH! DARLING: PM. Lennon definitely plays piano on this track, great manic
chording and bass parts. One of the best Beatle piano tracks with Lennon
handling the Fats Domino department.

I always thought the piano was Paul. There's something of a high arpeggio
at the end of the bridge -- typical of Paul, less typical of John. It's
Paul on the rehearsal tape I heard, with John on bass.

Except for the triplet idea, I've never heard Fats Domino play anything like
this. Strictly rock banging. Best piano track? Oh darling!


Paul D

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 7:44:31 AM11/22/03
to

"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3xzvb.14181$Wy4....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> You've obviously put a lot of effort into this. Good for you! I admire
> people who are passionate about their subject.

>
> > HONEY PIE: ...Walt Everett thinks that
> > Paul later dubbed the lead guitar parts but you can hear Lennon
> > playing similar things in his seventies home tapes.
>
> By the way, I tend to agree with Walt Everett on this one, but admittedly

I
> haven't heard the specific home tapes to which you refer. If they contain
> extended passages featuring Lennon blowing over changes, they might

warrant
> a major re-evaluation of the man's facility on guitar! :)
>
I seem to remember an interview with George Harrison in the late 80s - early
90s in Guitar Player(?) magazine where he said that Lennon played the solo
and said it was similar to Django. He said Lennon just pulled the solo out
of the air.


paramucho

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 8:00:44 AM11/22/03
to
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 21:26:18 -0600 (CST), DogGhostB...@webtv.net
(Dog Ghost bark) wrote:

>
>barbalan...@REMOVEcox.net wrote:
><DogGhostB...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>news:8836-3FB...@storefull-2271.public.lawson.webtv.net...
>    do...@aol.com wrote:
>Ian's referring to Clapton playing the song with John on "Rock and
>Roll Circus" in December '69 and the Toronto Rock 'n' Roll Revival nine
>months later.
>
>Ian wrote: >>And may have taken the second solo of the Beatles version
>
>This is what I was refering to Don. Ian mentions "Beatles". Sorry but
>I'm confused.
>
>    >>This is what was written:
>"John shows his chops on the demo and final. Great licks throughout.
>It's fairly certain that he took the first solo in all three versions
>(Beatles and the two later with Clapton) and may have taken the second
>solo on the Beatles version."
>  The "he" in question is referring to John, not Clapton. I don't
>see how it could have been more clear<<
>
>I apologized to Donz, and later he explained to me that I was correct.
>Go for it, since you appear to want to be nasty to me. I can take
>anything you can dish out.

It was a mucky sentence on my part, but I was referring to John.

Good on all of ya...

paramucho

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 8:05:31 AM11/22/03
to
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:55:02 GMT, "robertandrews"
<robert...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"paramucho" <i...@beathoven.com> wrote:
>>OH! DARLING: PM. Lennon definitely plays piano on this track, great manic
>chording and bass parts. One of the best Beatle piano tracks with Lennon
>handling the Fats Domino department.
>
>I always thought the piano was Paul. There's something of a high arpeggio
>at the end of the bridge -- typical of Paul, less typical of John. It's
>Paul on the rehearsal tape I heard, with John on bass.

Which rehearsal? Do you mean in the GET BACK or in the ABBEY ROAD
sessions?

paramucho

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 8:44:33 AM11/22/03
to
On 21 Nov 2003 11:11:21 -0800, goFab.com <tpl...@aol.com> wrote:

>On 21 Nov 2003 09:26:38 -0600, in article
><3fbdcb35...@news.ozemail.com.au>, paramucho stated:
>
>>GLASS ONION: JL. Driven by Lennon's acoustic rhythm guitar, full of
>>energy from start to finish. Entirely competent.
>
>On of the clearest previews (along with HIAWG) of the cutting guitar style later
>heard on POB.
>
>>OB LA DI: PM. Lennon rescued this song with his punchy piano part,
>>transforming it from a doodle into a tub thumper.
>
>That opening piano part is actually quite clever.

It's just so manic...


>
>>HAPPINESS: JL. The most complex band track that the Beatles ever
>>recorded. Lennon finger picks in the first section. He plays the lead
>>bent swampy lines in the "I need a fix" section. The key to the
>>"Mother Superior" section is Lennon's barring. Entirely competent.
>>
>>Lennon or Harrison? The bent lead line is heard on a separate dubbing
>>track, albiet once rather than twice. Other dubs include an opening
>>organ part (dropped from the final), tambourine for "Mother Superior"
>>and piano for the closing section. Listening to the piano in isolation
>>reminds me of Lennon's voicings for later "Real Life" piano versions.
>
>That moody guitar in the opening section is my single favorite Beatles moment.

He's putting his finger into something there....

>>MARTHA MY DEAR: PM. Another solo effort by Paul (although Ringo may
>>have played drums).
>
>Paul played the brass? ;-)

Brass Monkey (I'm reliably informed)

>>I'M SO TIRED: JL. I'm unclear on who played what on this track but the
>>evocative organ is supposed to be John's.
>
>Enough competency is displayed in the vocals on this track, never mind the
>instrumental playing.

The ultimate rock instrument.

>>ROCKY RACCOON: PM. Lennon plays bass poorly, harmonica effectively and
>>piano accordion mysteriously on this track. It's GM who adds the piano
>>solo.
>
>I prefer to think of the bass part as minimalistic and suited to the song. What
>is poor about it?

He misses a few notes by a country mile.

>>DON'T PASS ME BY: RS. Only Paul contributes to Ringo's track.
>>
>>WHY DON'T WE DO IT IN THE ROAD: PM. Another solo piece from Paul with
>>Ringo on drums.
>>
>
>Lennon's competence is amply demonstrated by skipping those two!

It's instructive to look at what happens with tracks when Lennon's
*not* there. "You Never Give Me Your Money" with Lennon is clearly
superior to "Golden Slumbers"/"Carry That Weight" without him.

>>JULIA: JL: John Lennon's only completely solo piece for the Beatles,
>>again exploiting the finger style he learned in India. A sea of
>>peaceful serene from start to finish. Incompetent?
>
>Another song that pre-sages POB. Beautifully played.

A triumph. The outtakes show just how fuckin' nervous he was in the
studio. Petrified.

>>YER BLUES: JL. Whether you consider it authentic or not, John shows


>>his chops on the demo and final. Great licks throughout. It's fairly
>>certain that he took the first solo in all three versions (Beatles and
>>the two later with Clapton) and may have taken the second solo on the

>>Beatles version. Incidently, of the three rock groups that he played
>>with on this song only the Beatles manage to get the tempo changes
>>down right. Another of the Beatles' most complex recordings rhythm-
>>wise.
>
>Yeah, this is just a great song.

I love the demo.

>>EVERYBODY'S GOT SOMETHING TO HIDE EXCEPT FOR ME AND MY MONKEY. JL. The
>>only time that the Beatles got close to the radial fluidity of people
>>like Capt'n Beefheart was on this track which Lennon drives from with
>>a choppy e-guitar part. This is some the Beatles best playing.
>>Harrison probably plays those great lead breaks.
>
>Absolutely killer track. Yes, this could be from "Safe as Milk" or "Clear
>Spot." Although I detect Beefheartism in other songs, although it was probably
>the Beatles influencing the Captain (I can't help but think that songs like SFF,
>Yer Blues and HAIWG influenced various parts of Beefheart's approach, including
>the segmented, contrasting-part technique he used on a number of songs. In the
>case of SFF, it is obvious, as he quotes the song in the great SFF parody
>"Beatle Bones 'n' Smokin' Stones").

There's pictures of Lennon at home in 1967 with "Safe As Milk"
stickers on his fridge.

>>REVOLUTION: JL. It seems that Lennon does *all* the guitar work on
>>this track and probably on the fast version as well. The basic rhythm
>>part boogies most of the time interlocking with Macca's piano part. A
>>totally cool acoustic lick at the end of the chorus. Lots of dirty
>>fills and some classic split sixths. A bit messy in places but
>>entirely competent. I mean, this is only some of the best fuckin'
>>music ever recorded and all it's mostly Lennon.
>
>How could you think that the guy who played rhythm on "All My Loving" would not
>be up to this?

I don't know Trish, some people just come up with these theories.

>>HONEY PIE: PM. Lennon mightn't have liked releasing Paul's cheesy
>>stuff but he always seems to have enjoyed playing on them. Likewise he
>>might have professed a dislike for Jazz but he apparently played the
>>intro lead and Django-like solo on this track as well as supplying the
>>thirties-style banjo-like rhythm guitar. That's not surprising when
>>you remember that it was Lennon who used to play lead on their send up
>>of the Harry Lime Theme (I almost wrote Harry Potter)(which I've never
>>seen)(I mean, who needs a pintsized Dr Who). Walt Everett thinks that


>>Paul later dubbed the lead guitar parts but you can hear Lennon
>>playing similar things in his seventies home tapes.
>

>Harry Potter is pretty pointless stuff.

I wouldn't know.

>>CRY BABY CRY: JL. Lennon plays acoustic rhythm (his great "A Day In
>>The Life" broad strumming style) on the band track later adding piano
>>and probably the leads. Martin dubbed some harmonium on the intro.
>
>Maybe should have left this off the album on the theory that one Bungalow Bill
>was enough? Or vice versa perhaps?

I'd lose "Bungalow Bill" then. The lyric of "Cry Baby Cry" is probably
the best english ever written for a Beatles' track.

>>REVOLUTION 9: JL. A Lennon solo effort (with some spoken dialogue from
>>George). In terms of musical complexity only Lennon could have done
>>this track.
>

>As I've pointed out before, when you rip this track and examine it on your
>computer, you can actually see John working the faders on this.

It's very tactile.

>>I WANT YOU: JL. Lennon plays the e-guitar leads and thus solo
>>(although the shine on the intro guitar lead sounds more like George).
>>This is a spectacular part, really making the guitar speak. One of the
>>best leads of all the Beatles' work. Another fabulous riff from John.
>
>I think this is the song where David Gilmour learned how to play.

Johnny, I barely knew him.


>DUDE! YOU FORGOT POLYTHENE PAM!!!!!!!

Sorry honey -- I'll try to do better next time, really I will.

paramucho

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 8:51:24 AM11/22/03
to
On 21 Nov 2003 11:14:51 -0800, goFab.com <tpl...@aol.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:27:40 -0600 (CST), in article
><3380-3FB...@storefull-2272.public.lawson.webtv.net>, Dog Ghost bark
>stated:
>>
>>i...@beathoven.com (paramucho) wrote


>>WHY DON'T WE DO IT IN THE ROAD: PM. >>Another solo piece from Paul with
>>Ringo on drums<<
>>

>>Wasn't it Paul who played every instrument,
>>including drums?


>>
>>>>YER BLUES: JL. Whether you consider it authentic or not, John shows
>>his chops on the demo and final. Great licks throughout. It's fairly
>>certain that he took the first solo in all three versions (Beatles and
>>the two later with Clapton) and may have taken the second solo on the
>>Beatles version.<<
>>

>>I saw Clapton say on "60 Minutes" when asked
>>what other songs did he play on the "White album" He replied "Guitar
>>gently weeps &
>>that's it"
>>
>>Not that this adds to the discussion Much.
>>
>
>
>I think he was talking about later live version of the song, e.g. live peace in
>torontissimo.

With Clapton, Keef and some drummer at the ROCK 'N' CIRCUS gig.

In Toronto with Clappo, Voorman and White in that nice little pick-up
gig they got. A rather fabulous display of Lennon's Musical Competence
in itself. There's a great moment in "Dizzy Miss Lizzy" where Eric
forgets to come in with the riff -- Lennon fills in with a vocalise "a
wow-ooh-wow-ooh-wow wow", cueing Eric in at the same time.

Message has been deleted

Ehtue

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 9:51:52 AM11/22/03
to
dlarsson writes:

What evidence do you have that John was at that session? Lewisohn states
that Clapton played the lead guitar, "Pual played a fuzz bass, George threw
in a few very high pitched organ notes, Ringo added percussion, and George
-- with Paul adding nece backing harmonies -- taped his lead vocal."
Nowhere does he mention participation by John.

Again, other than your own believe, what evidence do you have? Is John's
presense referenced somewhere?

-Ehtue

Ehtue

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 9:53:05 AM11/22/03
to
Mister Charlie <writes:

George is not inconsistent with Lewisohn as far as who was there. I think
Derek might be in error here.

-Ehtue

Dog Ghost bark

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 10:26:03 AM11/22/03
to

joes...@hotmail.com wrote:
"dlarsson" <derek_...@comcast.net> wrote in
news:C6Avb.267796$HS4.2393365@attbi_s01
                  "Ask Eric Clapton,
he'll tell you.   He thinks I can play."
                  -John Lennon

>>"Lennon? Nah, the guy can't play! I mean jeez, man, what do you expect
me to say? The guy's a friend. Besides, bad-mouthing people is the kiss
of death in the music business!"
- Eric Clapton (not) :)<<

I remember in 1971, Leslie West..the lead guitarist for "Mountain"..was
going around bragging & saying he was better than Clapton.

--
MISSING: Springer, John "Flurry"
http://www.gomcs.org/usa/0198-usa.htm

MISSING: Kathleen Dale Wattley
http://www.missingpeople.net/women/kathleen.htm

Dog Ghost bark

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 10:43:11 AM11/22/03
to
WHILE MY GUITAR GENTLY WEEPS: GH.
            >>Lennon was on bass guitar for the
recording<<

Lennon couldn't have played bass on this track.
He didn't have the expertise.

Dog Ghost bark

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 10:56:15 AM11/22/03
to
>>In Toronto with Clappo, Voorman and White in that nice little pick-up
gig they got. A rather fabulous display of Lennon's Musical Competence
in itself. There's a great moment in "Dizzy Miss Lizzy" where Eric
forgets to come in with the riff -<<

Eric just misses the last note of the riff. It wasn't
a wrong note. Sounds like he hit the right note,
but somehow it got muffled.

BlackMonk

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 10:57:14 AM11/22/03
to

"dlarsson" <derek_...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:34Evb.270331$HS4.2415114@attbi_s01...
>

> Clapton is also quite opinionated for your information.
> He gave a stinging rebuke of Ed Van Halen's guitar playing
> and was very uncomfortable with Van Halen fawning over
> him (when he first met him).

To be fair, it wasn't a stinging rebuke of Van Halen's guitar playing
overall, it was a rebuke of his blues playing, which suggests that there's
no such thing as all-encompassing technique in music. A musican can be very
skilled in one genre and still be hopeless in another genre that's
supposedly less demanding technically.


Message has been deleted

Dog Ghost bark

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 2:59:45 PM11/22/03
to
Blac...@email.msn.com wrote:
"dlarsson" <derek_...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:34Evb.270331$HS4.2415114@attbi_s01.
        Clapton is also quite opinionated for your
information.   He gave a stinging rebuke of Ed Van Halen's guitar
playing   and was very uncomfortable with Van Halen fawning over  
him (when he first met him).

>>To be fair, it wasn't a stinging rebuke of Van Halen's guitar playing
overall, it was a rebuke of his blues playing, which suggests that
there's no such thing as all-encompassing technique in music. A musican
can be very skilled in one genre and still be hopeless in another genre
that's supposedly less demanding technically<<

I can relate. I never could play blues riffs worth
a damn.

--
MISSING PERSON - EMMA FRANCES TRESP
http://www.tshooters.com/mpi/etresp.htm

MISSING: Nancy Lee Miller
http://www.worldgenealogyproject.com/missingnancyleemiller.htm

no posessions

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 5:29:06 PM11/22/03
to
Joe Silver <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<tlKvb.14742$Rk5....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> mikep...@yahoo.com (no posessions) wrote in
> news:8927a48a.03112...@posting.google.com:
>
> > Joe Silver <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:<cPAvb.14520$Wy4....@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
> >> "dlarsson" <derek_...@comcast.net> wrote in
> >> news:C6Avb.267796$HS4.2393365@attbi_s01:
> >>
> >>
> >> > "Ask Eric Clapton, he'll tell you. He thinks I can play."
> >> > -John Lennon
> >>

All I can say is I sure wish Clapton would say somthing like that
about me!! LOL!! Hes the best folks. And he dont praise just anyone.
He praises John and Yoko and I dont know about much else. It takes a
lot to impress a mr. clapton.

no posessions

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 5:36:38 PM11/22/03
to
"BlackMonk" <Blac...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:<bpo1m5$1qf59m$1...@ID-133514.news.uni-berlin.de>...

> To be fair, it wasn't a stinging rebuke of Van Halen's guitar playing
> overall, it was a rebuke of his blues playing, which suggests that there's
> no such thing as all-encompassing technique in music. A musican can be very
> skilled in one genre and still be hopeless in another genre that's
> supposedly less demanding technically.

All genres are demanding...in their own way.

Dog Ghost bark

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 6:01:25 PM11/22/03
to
mikep...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>All I can say is I sure wish Clapton would say somthing like that
about me!! LOL!! Hes the best folks. And he dont praise just anyone.
  He praises John and Yoko and I dont know about much else. It takes
a lot to impress a mr. clapton<<

I wonder how impressed he was, at having to sit though all that Indian
music at the "Concert
for George"? I almost feel asleep.

dlarsson

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 8:10:13 PM11/22/03
to

> >> Lead Guitar: Eric Clapton
> >> Acoustic Guitar: George Harrison
> >> Piano: Paul McCartney
> >> Bass: John Lennon (Fender V flat-picked)
> >> Drums: Ringo Starr

> > George Harrison: Yeah, Eric just played that, you know, live as we


> > were figuring out the song. Paul played piano on the original
> > record in 1967. There was Ringo on drums. I don't believe John was
> > there. I played acoustic guitar, Paul played piano, Ringo on drums
> > and Eric played live with us, and then Paul overdubbed the bass
> > later. So Eric just made up the guitar part spontaneously."
> >
> > -George Harrison, Paul Cashmere UNDERCOVER 1996
>
> George is not inconsistent with Lewisohn as far as who was there. I think
> Derek might be in error here.


I hadn't seen this quote from George before.
Thanks for the posting.

Mister Charlie

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 8:14:37 PM11/22/03
to

"dlarsson" <derek_...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:VNTvb.279540$Tr4.860416@attbi_s03...

>
> > >> Lead Guitar: Eric Clapton
> > >> Acoustic Guitar: George Harrison
> > >> Piano: Paul McCartney
> > >> Bass: John Lennon (Fender V flat-picked)
> > >> Drums: Ringo Starr
>
> > > George Harrison: Yeah, Eric just played that, you know, live as we
> > > were figuring out the song. Paul played piano on the original
> > > record in 1967. There was Ringo on drums. I don't believe John was
> > > there. I played acoustic guitar, Paul played piano, Ringo on drums
> > > and Eric played live with us, and then Paul overdubbed the bass
> > > later. So Eric just made up the guitar part spontaneously."
> > >
> > > -George Harrison, Paul Cashmere UNDERCOVER 1996
> >
> > George is not inconsistent with Lewisohn as far as who was there. I
think
> > Derek might be in error here.
>
>
> I hadn't seen this quote from George before.
> Thanks for the posting.
>
>
>
You're welcome derek. Now I can't claim you *always* ignore other
evidence.

There may be hope yet...either for you or for me, I'm not sure.


Guitar Hack

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 8:47:01 PM11/22/03
to
<<REVOLUTION: JL. It seems that Lennon does *all* the guitar work on
this track and probably on the fast version as well. The basic rhythm
part boogies most of the time interlocking with Macca's piano part. A
totally cool acoustic lick at the end of the chorus. Lots of dirty
fills and some classic split sixths. A bit messy in places but
entirely competent. I mean, this is only some of the best fuckin'
music ever recorded and all it's mostly Lennon.>>

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

Man, I'm glad to see someone else feels the way I do about this song.
"Revolution" (fast version, of course) is perhaps the most complete,
most innovative, most important, best performed piece the Beatles ever
did. I always blown away by it every time I hear it.

the bee tells

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 10:13:02 PM11/22/03
to
Great post. I'm surprised that JL played piano on "Maxwell's..." and "Oh,
Darling."

The notion of John being incompetent is absurd.

--

All follow-ups are directed to the newsgroup rec.music.beatles.moderated.
If your follow-up more properly belongs in the unmoderated newsgroup, please
change your headers appropriately. -- the moderators

Message has been deleted

dlarsson

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 10:17:43 PM11/22/03
to

> > HONEY PIE: ...Walt Everett thinks that


> > Paul later dubbed the lead guitar parts but you can hear Lennon
> > playing similar things in his seventies home tapes.
>

> By the way, I'm with Walt Everett on this one, although admittedly I


> haven't heard the specific home tapes to which you refer. If they contain

> extended passages in which Lennon blows over changes, they might warrant a


> major re-evaluation of the man's facility on guitar! :)

I don't know who "walt everett" is or thinks he is, but he is
irrelevant.

George Harrison specifically indentified John Lennon as the
guy who played the solo in "Honey Pie" in a published interview.
There is no debate about this. It's Lennon's solo.

- Derek

================================
EMail: derek_...@comcast.net
================================

--

BlackMonk

unread,
Nov 22, 2003, 10:19:55 PM11/22/03
to

"brink" <for...@about.it> wrote in message
news:bpmekq$1q4vpm$1...@ID-177982.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "paramucho" <i...@beathoven.com> wrote in message
> news:3fbdcb35...@news.ozemail.com.au...
>
> <snip>
>
> i mostly agree with you ian. lennon was not only musically "competent,"
the
> whole idea of technical skill is overrated in my opinion anyway. give me
> songwriting genius, great guitar tone, feel, guts, soul, honesty, and
blood
> sweat and tears any day over a better "technical" musician. most of
> lennon's work *feels* and *sounds* great, especially that late-period
> beatles stuff. it was only about 1972 onward where his production and
> arrangment sound started to jump the shark and the sound and feel started
to
> get lost pretty badly.
>
> anyway, here's my comments:

>
> > REVOLUTION 9: JL. A Lennon solo effort (with some spoken dialogue from
> > George). In terms of musical complexity only Lennon could have done
> > this track.
>
> i disagree, i think this is something paul could have done as well.
points
> obviously to john for *doing* it, it was innovative and fresh, but not
> particularly challenging beyond that for a skilled musician, in my
opinion.
>

It looks easy until you try it. Putting together a tape collage like that
means creating something out of nothing, finding a way to create something
musical using non-musical sounds, and having only his ears and his instinct
to rely upon. Many trained musicians wouldn't have a clue where to begin.

Donz5

unread,
Nov 23, 2003, 12:10:20 AM11/23/03
to
derek_larsson wrote:

> George Harrison specifically indentified John Lennon as the
> guy who played the solo in "Honey Pie" in a published interview.
> There is no debate about this. It's Lennon's solo.

So you've claimed -- in which article did George say this?

Donz5

unread,
Nov 23, 2003, 2:07:51 AM11/23/03
to
Joe wrote:

>do...@aol.com (Donz5) wrote in
news:20031122223644...@mb-m24.aol.com:

>> derek_larsson wrote:
>
>>> George Harrison specifically indentified John Lennon as the
>>> guy who played the solo in "Honey Pie" in a published interview.
>>> There is no debate about this. It's Lennon's solo.
>
>> So you've claimed -- in which article did George say this?

>It was in a 1987 interview in Guitar Player magazine. Of course, Harrison's
>memory may or may not have been accurate on this matter. Ignoring the issue
>of Lennon's competence as a guitarist or as a musician overall, this brief
>solo just doesn't sound like him, IMO.

Thanks for the source -- I just got it out (it's the 11/87 issue), and, yes,
George makes this comment:

"And John played a brilliant solo on 'Honey Pie' from the White Album; sounded
like Django Reinhardt or something. It was one of them where you just close
your eyes and happen to hit all the right notes -- sounded like a little jazz
solo." (p. 95)

Also, in regards to the harmony solo in "And Your Bird Can Sing":

"Listening to some of the CDs, there are some really good things, like 'And
Your Bird Can Sing,' where I think it was Paul and me, or maybe John and me,
playing in harmony -- quite a complicated little line that goes right through
the middle eight." (p. 92).

So while George himself can't recall whether it was John or Paul who shared the
solo with him, he wasn't as fuzzy re John playing "Honey Pie."

no posessions

unread,
Nov 23, 2003, 5:27:13 AM11/23/03
to
do...@aol.com (Donz5) wrote in message news:<20031123020751...@mb-m23.aol.com>...

> Joe wrote:
>
> >do...@aol.com (Donz5) wrote in
> news:20031122223644...@mb-m24.aol.com:
>
> >> derek_larsson wrote:
>
> >>> George Harrison specifically indentified John Lennon as the
> >>> guy who played the solo in "Honey Pie" in a published interview.
> >>> There is no debate about this. It's Lennon's solo.
>
> >> So you've claimed -- in which article did George say this?
>
> >It was in a 1987 interview in Guitar Player magazine. Of course, Harrison's
> >memory may or may not have been accurate on this matter. Ignoring the issue
> >of Lennon's competence as a guitarist or as a musician overall, this brief
> >solo just doesn't sound like him, IMO.
>
> Thanks for the source -- I just got it out (it's the 11/87 issue), and, yes,
> George makes this comment:
>
> "And John played a brilliant solo on 'Honey Pie' from the White Album; sounded
> like Django Reinhardt or something. It was one of them where you just close
> your eyes and happen to hit all the right notes -- sounded like a little jazz
> solo." (p. 95)

Of course John sounded like jazz. The man could play anything. Hes
john fuckin lennon!!!

BlackMonk

unread,
Nov 23, 2003, 12:06:18 PM11/23/03
to

"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mW4wb.16358$Rk5....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...

> mikep...@yahoo.com (no posessions) wrote in
> news:8927a48a.0311...@posting.google.com:

>
> > Of course John sounded like jazz. The man could play anything. Hes
> > john fuckin lennon!!!
>
> The Beatles certainly produced magic in the recording studio, over and
over
> again. Regarding this one solo, though, I have to wonder why John had
never
> recorded anything like this before, and never did again - at least on a
> commercially available recording.

How many songs after Honey Pie did he record where a nostalgia
jazz-influenced sound would be appropriate? I think you may be confusing
what Lennon prefered to do with what he was able to do.

It's a shame the Honey Pie solo is only
> four measures (of which most of the first measure and half of the second
> are taken up by rests). I would have liked to hear more.
>

I never found that solo to be too impressive. It's nice, but I suspect many
rock guitarists who've been playing for over a decade and who have some
musical curiosity know at least a couple of jazz phrases that they can pull
out if the situation requires them.

BlackMonk

unread,
Nov 23, 2003, 2:57:38 PM11/23/03
to

"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ZE7wb.16649$Rk5....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "BlackMonk" <Blac...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> news:bpqq3l$1quc2p$1...@ID-133514.news.uni-berlin.de:

>
> > I never found that solo to be too impressive. It's nice, but I suspect
> > many rock guitarists who've been playing for over a decade and who
> > have some musical curiosity know at least a couple of jazz phrases
> > that they can pull out if the situation requires them.
>
> I don't think it's so much a matter of playing stock jazz phrases as
> negotiating chord changes. Many (not all) rock and blues players tend to
> solo over key centers rather than hitting on all the chords in a sequence.
>

True, but if you have a good ear and pare down the licks, you can do that
and come up with a reasonable aproximation of negotiating the chord changes.

> I agree that the "Honey Pie" solo isn't all that brilliant in itself. What
> impresses me is what it suggests - a player who is attuned to all the
> underlying chord changes, and knows what notes will work with them and
what
> won't. This is not evident in the more rough-hewn improvisations on, say,
> "Long Tall Sally" or "You Can't Do That."

Well, John WAS the rhythm guitarist on the song and knew what the changes
were.


no posessions

unread,
Nov 23, 2003, 4:51:19 PM11/23/03
to
"BlackMonk" <Blac...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:<bpo24l$1r7o4j$1...@ID-133514.news.uni-berlin.de>...

> It looks easy until you try it. Putting together a tape collage like that
> means creating something out of nothing, finding a way to create something
> musical using non-musical sounds, and having only his ears and his instinct
> to rely upon. Many trained musicians wouldn't have a clue where to begin.

Yep. I've never heard another song quite like #9. Its bloody a
mazing, i dont quite know know how they did it. Unlike any other
Beatles tune. Pure art, no doubt about it. It makes the album. Sure
the teenyboppers might not "get it"...you need maturity...and
education. You have to be able to make som ethinbg from nothing. In
its way I feel #9 one of the Beatles greatest works.

BlackMonk

unread,
Nov 23, 2003, 5:29:12 PM11/23/03
to

"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:oC9wb.16869$Rk5....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> "BlackMonk" <Blac...@email.msn.com> wrote in
> news:bpr44u$1rgum8$1...@ID-133514.news.uni-berlin.de:

>
> > Well, John WAS the rhythm guitarist on the song and knew what the
> > changes were.
>
> I've met - and even taught - players who could play the chords to a piece,
> yet lacked the knowledge to create single-note improvisations over them.
> It's a skill that requires a slightly higher level of musical awareness
and
> training - as you probably know.
>

Yes, it's not automatic that a person who knows the chords can solo over
them, but knowing the chords is a good start. It means that the player has
some idea what notes are involved and can probably get a few licks by
playing around with the chord shapes.

> Whoever it is that plays the "Honey Pie" solo (and granted, it would seem
> that George Harrison would be more likely to know the truth about this
than
> most, having been there), it seems to display a bit more harmonic
> sophistication than one *might* expect from the person who performed the
> solos on "Revolution" and "Yer Blues" (first solo).
>

Different types of music, with different requirements. One could say that
the bassline to "Something" displayed more sophistication than one might
expect from the person who played on "I'm Down."


> But I agree with you that it's possible for someone who doesn't normally
> play jazz to come up with a "reasonable approximation," particularly if,
as
> in this case, the solo is short.

I think one of the strengths of The Beatles was that, though they might not
have always been fluent enough in a genre to play an entire set of that
music convincingly, they were able to pick up enough of the genre to get by
for three minutes and so they could bring a wide range of influences to
their own music.


jack stone

unread,
Nov 23, 2003, 8:23:42 PM11/23/03
to
Sorry for the intrusion, but this is something that has bothered me
recently. It is a basic tenet of musicianship that you can't succeed
without a tight rythm section. My estimation of the individual Beatles:
John and Paul: unsurpassed geniuses of pop music, the likes of which we
will never see. All pop music being made today will be lucky to write
really insignificant footnotes to the work they did some thirty years ago.
George Harrison: A near-great. Were he a member of a rival band, the music
press of his day would've made a serious case for his superiority to the
Beatles, which would almost certainly have been corrected in our time, and
for posterity.
And then there's Ringo.
THUD-THUD-THUD. That's this guy's transition from the intro to "Lucy
in the Sky With Diamonds" into the chorus. No kidding! I hope that noone
would rank his singing skills much higher either.
Enough with the bashing. The question that haunts me is how a third
rate singer and a fourth rate drummer got to be a significant part of the
greatest pop band of all time? It just doesn't fit in my mind.
If anything, I would like to think that this fact alone further
reinforces my case for the divinity of Paul McCartney and John Lennon as the
two foremost pop geniuses of all time (rumors of their poor live
performances notwithstanding). How can you be the greatest band with a less
than adequate drummer?

"the bee tells" <thebe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031121105026...@mb-m10.aol.com...

Dog Ghost bark

unread,
Nov 23, 2003, 10:39:25 PM11/23/03
to

exo...@yahoo.com (jack stone) wrote:

         >> Enough with the bashing. The question
that haunts me is how a third rate singer and a fourth rate drummer got
to be a significant part of the greatest pop band of all time? It just
doesn't fit in my mind<<

Harrison was originally a great back up singer for the Beatles..until he
started writing a few songs himself. Ringo isn't a 4th rate drummer.
He kept a great beat..and he knew what to play and what not to play. He
was the right drummer for the Beatles. The Beatles were primarily a
vocal group. You wouldn't want to hear alot of drum fills in a Beatles
song. The drummer shouldn't be competing with the vocals.
Amazing how so many don't understand this
with Ringo.

BlackMonk

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Nov 23, 2003, 11:30:03 PM11/23/03
to

"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:98f2df24.03112...@posting.google.com...
> i...@beathoven.com (paramucho) wrote in message
news:<3fbdcb35...@news.ozemail.com.au>...

>
> > HONEY PIE: ...Walt Everett thinks that
> > Paul later dubbed the lead guitar parts but you can hear Lennon
> > playing similar things in his seventies home tapes.
>
> By the way, I agree with Walt Everett on this one - although
> admittedly I haven't heard the particular home tapes to which you
> refer.
>


Even after George Harrison said that John Lennon played the lead guitar on
the record, you think Paul played it? Why?

jenni carter

unread,
Nov 23, 2003, 11:31:19 PM11/23/03
to
Pray tell me, oh superior one, what shouldeth that "less than adequate"
drummer have played twix verse and chorus of LITSWD? Suggest you, perhaps,
a
parradiddly-aye-oh-to-billyo-aeolian-transbutonic-crossdressing-contorpian-m
utated-flimflam-flapjackery-doubleswitch-cutout ROLL? Sorry to get
tecknickal but it's hard for a mere mortal musician such as myself to fully
comprehend these searing insights which you have so humbly shared with your
inferiors.
marcuscp
"jack stone" <exo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:WTcwb.32141$Vs1....@twister.austin.rr.com...


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robertandrews

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Nov 24, 2003, 4:34:02 AM11/24/03
to
"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I've met - and even taught - players who could play the chords to a piece,
yet lacked the knowledge to create single-note improvisations over them.
It's a skill that requires a slightly higher level of musical awareness and
training - as you probably know.

Not necessarily a higher level of musical awareness.


robertandrews

unread,
Nov 24, 2003, 4:36:30 AM11/24/03
to
"paramucho" <i...@beathoven.com> wrote :
>Which rehearsal? Do you mean in the GET BACK or in the ABBEY ROAD sessions?

It's a sloppy rehearsal, & Paul breaks into "One Night With You" on the
bridge.

I would guess the Get Back sessions.


no posessions

unread,
Nov 24, 2003, 3:19:22 PM11/24/03
to
> It's a skill that requires a slightly higher level of musical awareness and
> training - as you probably know.

Higher awareness only comes from God. Or lsd.

Same thing I s'pose.

no posessions

unread,
Nov 24, 2003, 5:41:49 PM11/24/03
to
do...@aol.com (Donz5) wrote in message news:<20031123020751...@mb-m23.aol.com>...

> "And John played a brilliant solo on 'Honey Pie' from the White Album; sounded


> like Django Reinhardt or something. It was one of them where you just close
> your eyes and happen to hit all the right notes -- sounded like a little jazz
> solo." (p. 95)

It never ceases to amaze me that there are some who bash Johns guitar
playing even after a comment like this gets posted. Folks this is
George Harrison talking! George Harrison, heard of him? He was in
aband called the Beatles remember them mate?

As far as I'm concerned George says the final word. And I hope I dont
have to remind anyone that George has passed away and is with God now.
Rest assured he sees all that is said.

End of discussion

Mister Charlie

unread,
Nov 24, 2003, 10:02:32 PM11/24/03
to

"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Evywb.18779$Rk5....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...

> mikep...@yahoo.com (no posessions) wrote in
> news:8927a48a.03112...@posting.google.com:
> There's something to be said for that!
>
> Just as an aside, though, I find George's wording interesting: "...you
just
> close your eyes and happen to hit all the right notes." Why not
"*John*
> closed his eyes and happened to hit all the right notes"? Using the
second
> person adds a slight wash of vagueness to the comment. Did John close
his
> eyes and happen to hit all the right notes, or didn't he?
>
> The statement also suggests that there was an element of luck in the
> execution of this solo. Indeed, the solo itself bears a slight
suggestion
> of groping, of tentativeness - although there are no actual "wrong"
notes.
> Still, many non-jazz players wouldn't have been so lucky!
>
> I get the feeling the Beatles were an extremely loyal bunch, on the
whole.
> They each may have made an unkind public comment or two about one
another -
> John in particular. However, Lennon himself said something like "It's
OK
> for *me* to criticize the Beatles, but don't let me catch Mick Jagger
doing
> it!" I can't recall *any* of them ever saying a negative word about
one
> another's musicianship.

Still, I beleive you're grasping at straws here. Closing one's eyes and
feeling the piece is the sign of a good musician's intuition, not luck.


brink

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Nov 24, 2003, 11:20:09 PM11/24/03
to

"BlackMonk" <Blac...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:bpo24l$1r7o4j$1...@ID-133514.news.uni-berlin.de...
>

what do you think is more difficult, coming up with a tricky, harmonically
complex song/lyric/melody, or making a sound collage a la revolution 9?
(serious question)

lots of rap and hip hop records actually use a form of "sound collage"
technique these days (the more experimental hip hop artists like outkast,
some of beck's music for example)

i've done the "sound collage" thing before, i didn't think it was that
tough, though granted i'm using modern technology that makes looping,
manipulating, and triggering different tracks and sounds so much easier than
the "holding pencils on tape loops" method they used to mix revolution 9.
and of course it's analogous to abstract painting--"oh hey, it's easy, just
throw some paint on a canvas randomly, i can do that"--when the *art* of it
(subjective, of course) is in the composition, form, and movement that can
be discerned apart from "random noise."

jack stone

unread,
Nov 24, 2003, 11:21:32 PM11/24/03
to
I wasn't trying to by searing or profound, I was sincerely looking for an
answer. It's something that's intrigued me for a long time. I know of no
other great band lacking a great drummer.
"jenni carter" <jenni...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3fc1853f$0$13634$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...

Nick Romero

unread,
Nov 24, 2003, 6:43:02 AM11/24/03
to
>
> HAPPINESS: JL.

Other dubs include an opening
> organ part (dropped from the final),

Ian, will you help me put this myth to bed?

The opening organ part IS in the final version, mixed low and panned to the
same area as the rhythm guitar (ie more or less in the centre). Especially
noticeable is the run of notes in bar 2:

Beats: 1 2 3 4
Notes: b a g f# e f# g a b

And then it continues, with all the features of the bootleg (where the track
is heard solo'd) audible if you listen disentangle them from the guitar
notes.

Compare with the guitar alone which can be isolated from the 5.1 Anthology
mix.


>
> BECAUSE: JL. Lennon is the only Beatle playing on the band track,
> along with George Martin (and Ringo tapping out a click track).


Why do you think the bass was added later?

Also, stereo-OOPSing the track shows that 2 guitars, which different tone
colours, are playing in unison. That might have been doubled by John
himself, as with Prudence, Happiness etc. Or he and George might have played
the line together.

I think in one of your articles on Because you mention another (demo?)
recording of John playing this style of accompaniment - which song is that?

Nick

BlackMonk

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Nov 24, 2003, 11:40:42 PM11/24/03
to

"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Evywb.18779$Rk5....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> mikep...@yahoo.com (no posessions) wrote in
> news:8927a48a.03112...@posting.google.com:
>
> There's something to be said for that!
>
> Just as an aside, though, I find George's wording interesting: "...you
just

> close your eyes and happen to hit all the right notes." Why not "*John*
> closed his eyes and happened to hit all the right notes"? Using the second
> person adds a slight wash of vagueness to the comment. Did John close his
> eyes and happen to hit all the right notes, or didn't he?
>

Reread George's quote, when he says "you just close your eyes..." he isn't
just talking about the "Honey Pie" solo. He's making a comment about soloing
in general.

that there was an element of luck in the
> execution of this solo.

That's the nature of improvisation. Unless you're just regurgitating licks
that you've memorized, you take chances and hope for the best.


jenni carter

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 12:47:03 AM11/25/03
to

"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Evywb.18779$Rk5....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> mikep...@yahoo.com (no posessions) wrote in
> news:8927a48a.03112...@posting.google.com:
>
> > do...@aol.com (Donz5) wrote in message
> > news:<20031123020751...@mb-m23.aol.com>...
> >
> >> "And John played a brilliant solo on 'Honey Pie' from the White
> >> Album; sounded like Django Reinhardt or something. It was one of them
> >> where you just close your eyes and happen to hit all the right notes
> >> -- sounded like a little jazz solo." (p. 95)
>
> Just as an aside, though, I find George's wording interesting: "...you
just

> close your eyes and happen to hit all the right notes." Why not "*John*
> closed his eyes and happened to hit all the right notes"? Using the second
> person adds a slight wash of vagueness to the comment. Did John close his
> eyes and happen to hit all the right notes, or didn't he?
>
> The statement also suggests that there was an element of luck in the
> execution of this solo. Indeed, the solo itself bears a slight suggestion
> of groping, of tentativeness - although there are no actual "wrong" notes.
> Still, many non-jazz players wouldn't have been so lucky!

>>>>>>> Any "good" musician knows that the creation of "good" music involves
skill AND serendipity. I don't want to hear a solo played by a computer
hitting all the "right notes". I know it's only rock & roll, still, any jazz
player who doesn't take risks for fear of playing a "wrong note" is not
really a jazz player or a musician for that matter IMHO. marcuscp

> I get the feeling the Beatles were an extremely loyal bunch, on the whole.
> They each may have made an unkind public comment or two about one
another -
> John in particular. However, Lennon himself said something like "It's OK
> for *me* to criticize the Beatles, but don't let me catch Mick Jagger
doing
> it!" I can't recall *any* of them ever saying a negative word about one
> another's musicianship.

>>>>>>>I can recall *many* comments by John and George (especially) re. how
touring and playing under the conditions of the time i.e. no foldback +
thousand's screaming + same old songs= deteriorating musicianship. To their
credit the Beatles quit these lucrative tours to concentrate on exploring
the studio - their sense of adventure still resonates in recording
technology today - and in so doing emphatically arrested their musical ennui
(I love that word). George also remarked that Paul's bass playing sometimes
overpowered some songs by being over busy. marcuscp

robertandrews

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 1:40:40 AM11/25/03
to
"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>I didn't mean *innate* musical awareness; sorry if I wasn't clear on this.
I meant awareness cultivated through training.

Your meaning was clear -- interpretive (playing chords) vs. improvisational
(single-note solos over chords). In my opinion, one isn't necessarily more
musically aware than the other.


robertandrews

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 1:43:10 AM11/25/03
to

Doug Campbell

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 4:04:02 AM11/25/03
to

Joe Silver wrote:

>
> Just as an aside, though, I find George's wording interesting: "...you just

> close your eyes and happen to hit all the right notes." Why not "*John*
> closed his eyes and happened to hit all the right notes"? Using the second
> person adds a slight wash of vagueness to the comment. Did John close his
> eyes and happen to hit all the right notes, or didn't he?
>
> The statement also suggests that there was an element of luck in the
> execution of this solo. Indeed, the solo itself bears a slight suggestion
> of groping, of tentativeness - although there are no actual "wrong" notes.
> Still, many non-jazz players wouldn't have been so lucky!
>

> I get the feeling the Beatles were an extremely loyal bunch, on the whole.
> They each may have made an unkind public comment or two about one another -
> John in particular. However, Lennon himself said something like "It's OK
> for *me* to criticize the Beatles, but don't let me catch Mick Jagger doing
> it!" I can't recall *any* of them ever saying a negative word about one
> another's musicianship.

You're spinning, Joe.
You've taken one word ("you")and made it suggest:

- that the solo was "lucky"
- that George's comments were deliberately vague
- that George didn't criticize John's solo because of loyalty

You also make a point of almost begrudgingly admitting that there are no
"wrong" notes. Since when do we appreciate solos in terms of what
"wrong" notes *weren't* played?

You also seem to want to interpret the fact that the Beatles did not
speak negatively about one another's musicianship, not as evidence of
having nothing negative to say, but as evidence of 'sticking together'.

There are simpler readings. Perhaps George meant that he would have
approached that kind of solo in the same way. That's what I think he
meant. Maybe he was even a little envious. Do you really believe George
thought he could have played so much better a solo that, ten years
later, he would feel the need to speak of his former bandmate's solo in
tones of veiled criticism? I don't.

DC

paramucho

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 4:41:01 AM11/25/03
to

An outtake from the ABBEY ROAD sessions would have had some weight but
I don't think what they did in the GET BACK sessions tells us much
unless we can pick out some distinctive similarities in the parts.

paramucho

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 4:47:34 AM11/25/03
to

As I said, it's a tautological argument:

X: It can't be Fred jumping that high!
Y: Why not?
X: Because Fred's not capable of jumping that high.

paramucho

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 4:49:11 AM11/25/03
to
On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 19:12:57 GMT, Joe Silver <joes...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>"BlackMonk" <Blac...@email.msn.com> wrote in
>news:bpqq3l$1quc2p$1...@ID-133514.news.uni-berlin.de:

>
>> I never found that solo to be too impressive. It's nice, but I suspect
>> many rock guitarists who've been playing for over a decade and who
>> have some musical curiosity know at least a couple of jazz phrases
>> that they can pull out if the situation requires them.
>

>I don't think it's so much a matter of playing stock jazz phrases as
>negotiating chord changes. Many (not all) rock and blues players tend to
>solo over key centers rather than hitting on all the chords in a sequence.
>

>I agree that the "Honey Pie" solo isn't all that brilliant in itself. What
>impresses me is what it suggests - a player who is attuned to all the
>underlying chord changes, and knows what notes will work with them and what
>won't. This is not evident in the more rough-hewn improvisations on, say,
>"Long Tall Sally" or "You Can't Do That."

Even when I was a kid and knew fuck all I'd still have a good day
where everything would just work. That's exactly what Harrison's
referring to. He just ripped it out and it worked.

A thing of the moment.

paramucho

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 4:52:01 AM11/25/03
to
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 01:46:12 GMT, Joe Silver <joes...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>mikep...@yahoo.com (no posessions) wrote in
>news:8927a48a.03112...@posting.google.com:
>

>There's something to be said for that!
>

>Just as an aside, though, I find George's wording interesting: "...you just
>close your eyes and happen to hit all the right notes." Why not "*John*
>closed his eyes and happened to hit all the right notes"? Using the second
>person adds a slight wash of vagueness to the comment. Did John close his
>eyes and happen to hit all the right notes, or didn't he?

As I said above, he's referring to a recognisable syndrome -- right
time, right place, right mood and everything works.

>The statement also suggests that there was an element of luck in the
>execution of this solo. Indeed, the solo itself bears a slight suggestion
>of groping, of tentativeness - although there are no actual "wrong" notes.
>Still, many non-jazz players wouldn't have been so lucky!

It's not luck so much as being in the zone.


>I get the feeling the Beatles were an extremely loyal bunch, on the whole.
>They each may have made an unkind public comment or two about one another -
>John in particular. However, Lennon himself said something like "It's OK
>for *me* to criticize the Beatles, but don't let me catch Mick Jagger doing
>it!" I can't recall *any* of them ever saying a negative word about one
>another's musicianship.

Well, Harrison was good enough for you when you were citing him in an
earlier post.

robertandrews

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 5:28:22 AM11/25/03
to
"paramucho" <i...@beathoven.com> wrote:
>An outtake from the ABBEY ROAD sessions would have had some weight but I
don't think what they did in the GET BACK sessions tells us much unless we
can pick out some distinctive similarities in the parts.

Paul doesn't do any of the high stuff, though he's singing at the same time.
The rest is close enough.

On Abbey Road, I assumed that Paul tracked the piano & overdubbed the bass.
But I'm sure that John was capable of playing the same part, especially with
punching in & out. Probably the hardest technical thing is the augmented
chord.

Whoever played it, I don't like it very much. The piano on Lady Madonna is
a lot better.

paramucho

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 10:17:22 AM11/25/03
to
On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 10:28:22 GMT, "robertandrews"
<robert...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>"paramucho" <i...@beathoven.com> wrote:
>>An outtake from the ABBEY ROAD sessions would have had some weight but I
>don't think what they did in the GET BACK sessions tells us much unless we
>can pick out some distinctive similarities in the parts.
>
>Paul doesn't do any of the high stuff, though he's singing at the same time.
>The rest is close enough.
>
>On Abbey Road, I assumed that Paul tracked the piano & overdubbed the bass.
>But I'm sure that John was capable of playing the same part, especially with
>punching in & out. Probably the hardest technical thing is the augmented
>chord.

What speaks against your theory are the ABBEY ROAD outtakes which have
piano and bass together. Now, if you decide that Paul's on bass then
someone else has to be on piano. Listening to the outtake it's pretty
clear that Paul is playing bass (because of the synchronicity of the
uptempo move in the last verse) and that someone else is on piano
(because Paul starts laughing when the piano player suddenly throws in
a swing break).

>Whoever played it, I don't like it very much. The piano on Lady Madonna is
>a lot better.

That's irrelevant :-)


Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted

Donz5

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 11:00:46 AM11/25/03
to
Joe Silver wrote:

>By the way, I think there's another possible scenario regarding the
>origin of the "Honey Pie" solo: Perhaps *Paul,* not John, played it,
>as Walt Everett has suggested - and given the acrimony of some of the
>White Album sessions, and the general tendency of many humans to
>become a bit fuzzy on details after the passage of a couple of
>decades, George simply forgot. The Beatles probably weren't as
>obsessive about the details of their own sessions as many fans, after
>all!

There's no indication in George's quote that he was "a bit fuzzy on details" in
regard to who played the lead guitar on "Honey Pie." Or that he "simply
forgot."

As opposed to his own acknowledgment about being "fuzzy on the details" on who
played guitar with him on "And Your Bird Can Sing." For "Bird," he was
uncertain. For "Honey," he was certain.

Mister Charlie

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 11:25:25 AM11/25/03
to

"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:98f2df24.03112...@posting.google.com...
> i...@beathoven.com (paramucho) wrote in message
news:<3fca249c...@news.ozemail.com.au>...

>
> > As I said, it's a tautological argument:
> >
> > X: It can't be Fred jumping that high!
> > Y: Why not?
> > X: Because Fred's not capable of jumping that high.
>
> I wonder, though, why Lennon never released anything else that sounded
> like this solo, either before or after?
>
> Another poster (BlackMonk?) pointed out that there weren't too many
> songs by either the Beatles or Lennon as a solo artist that would have
> called for 1920s Jazz Age Paul Whiteman-esque soloing. I didn't
> necessarily mean that, per se. I just meant negotiating chord changes,
> irrespective of genre. Why would someone attempt this once, and only
> once, in an entire recording career?
>
> It could be said that other Lennon solos, such as on "Get Back,"
> follow the chord changes rather than being based simply on the key
> center. What distinguishes "Honey Pie," though, is the slighly more
> sophisticated chord progression - the movement from the tonic to the
> sub-mediant (bVI) to the tertiary dominant (V7/V7/V7). It's a bit
> tricky! I would think that if someone could navigate through a
> sequence like this, he'd want to try something like it again at some
> point. To say the least, it's a bit of an enigma.

Not really. Why don't dogs sing? I mean, one can present -any- query.
It doesn't mean there is anything valid in it. I understand your slight
confusion as if something doesn't add up but really there's "no there
there". Occam and all that jazz.


Mister Charlie

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 11:30:13 AM11/25/03
to

"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:98f2df24.03112...@posting.google.com...
> X-No-archive: yes

>
> "jenni carter" <jenni...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:<3fc2eae7$0$13682$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>...

>
> > >>>>>>> Any "good" musician knows that the creation of "good" music
involves
> > skill AND serendipity. I don't want to hear a solo played by a
computer
> > hitting all the "right notes". I know it's only rock & roll, still,
any jazz
> > player who doesn't take risks for fear of playing a "wrong note" is
not
> > really a jazz player or a musician for that matter IMHO. marcuscp
>
> As I've stated elsewhere, I don't think the "Honey Pie" solo is quite
> the sort of thing that would be analyzed in classrooms at Berklee
> School of Music or University of Miami. If a jazz musician played it,
> it would certainly be forgotten by now. It's not a brilliant piece of
> music or improvisation. What makes it remarkable is that it was played
> by one of the Beatles, a group not known for its facility in playing
> jazz. Great, yes. Jazz musicians, no.
>
> If it was actually executed by John Lennon, who not only wasn't a jazz
> musician but didn't even solo frequently, it's all the more
> remarkable. For a relatively inexperienced soloist, the I-bVI-V7/V7/V7
> movement is somewhat challenging, and just avoiding wrong notes is an
> accomplishment!

You know how you decide to call in sick one day to work so you lie in
bed and the more you think about how you will present your symptoms you
actually start to feel worse and worse until by the time you call bygod
you are in a bad way?

I think you're talking yourself into the same sort of quandry. Tho I
must say personally I would not be gobsmacked if Paul played the solo,
despite George's statement. I just tend to see nothing equivocable
about what and how George said what he did.

And whether he was in the zone or not, John was capable of pulling a
rabbit out of his hat. And he may have done the unthinkable...practiced
what he wanted to do before recording!


Mister Charlie

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 11:34:13 AM11/25/03
to

"Joe Silver" <joes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:98f2df24.03112...@posting.google.com...
> X-No-archive: yes
>
> "Mister Charlie" <smokerdu...@myway.com> wrote in message
news:<bpugp6$1st2te$1...@ID-63206.news.uni-berlin.de>...

>
> > Still, I beleive you're grasping at straws here. Closing one's eyes
and
> > feeling the piece is the sign of a good musician's intuition, not
luck.
>
> The image of the artist guided largely or solely by intuition is a
> popular one. However, as I've stated elsewhere, learning what *not* to
> play is a long process.

For classical and jazz. Rock n roll is an exact science and always has
been, tho sloppy playing is rarely welcomed.

>
> Playing over "Honey Pie's" G6-Eb7-E7 progression wouldn't be
> particularly daunting for a trained jazz musician, but for someone
> without such training, there are potential pitfalls. Common tones make
> it easier to "coast" over a chord progression, but it would be
> difficult to do so here, as each chord actually represents a different
> key center.

That's fine. But it is a fact that really does not directly apply to
John. It is, at best, circumstantial evidence.
>
> I'm not saying that I *know* Lennon couldn't do it - but if *I* were a
> recording artist and could play fluidly over this sort of a sequence,
> I'd do it more often. :)

Of course. But you really have no idea why he didn't and to fill in the
gaps as you have is just speculation...basically unfounded, as the fact
you present doesn't really lead automatically to the assumption you
make.


paramucho

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 11:56:53 AM11/25/03
to
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 11:43:02 -0000, "Nick Romero"
<ni...@nromero.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:

>>
>> HAPPINESS: JL.
>
>Other dubs include an opening
>> organ part (dropped from the final),
>
>Ian, will you help me put this myth to bed?

Most happily Sir! I'll update BEATLES UNPLUCKED. Many thanks for the
detailed treatment.

>The opening organ part IS in the final version, mixed low and panned to the
>same area as the rhythm guitar (ie more or less in the centre). Especially
>noticeable is the run of notes in bar 2:
>
>Beats: 1 2 3 4
>Notes: b a g f# e f# g a b
>
>And then it continues, with all the features of the bootleg (where the track
>is heard solo'd) audible if you listen disentangle them from the guitar
>notes.
>
>Compare with the guitar alone which can be isolated from the 5.1 Anthology
>mix.
>
>
>>
>> BECAUSE: JL. Lennon is the only Beatle playing on the band track,
>> along with George Martin (and Ringo tapping out a click track).
>
>
>Why do you think the bass was added later?

Oops :-) I'd totally forgotten that tasteful bass part. I was rushing.

>Also, stereo-OOPSing the track shows that 2 guitars, which different tone
>colours, are playing in unison. That might have been doubled by John
>himself, as with Prudence, Happiness etc. Or he and George might have played
>the line together.

Another great find.

As you note Lennon had a habit of doubling his solo parts -- "Julia"
is another, but usually on the same guitar. Perhaps George learned the
part at the same time Martin did.

>I think in one of your articles on Because you mention another (demo?)
>recording of John playing this style of accompaniment - which song is that?

It's a little ditty that he recorded with Yoko called "Stay In Bed".
I'll add to the list of promised uploads ("She Loves You", the Frost
tape). I'm still stuck in retro-computer land at the moment...

There's also an instrumental home tape of Lennon playing the "Because"
riff somewhere. It was in one of the videos. I'm not sure if I have it
not.

the bee tells

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 12:47:42 PM11/25/03
to
>if *I* were a recording artist and could play fluidly over this sort of a
sequence, I'd do it more often.

Then your primary interest would differ from John's. He was a rocker.

Okitekudasai

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 1:35:20 PM11/25/03
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From: joes...@hotmail.com (Joe Silver)


1. I think it's possible George's memory failed him in this instance.
It's just a four-bar solo, after all. Probably took no more than a
minute or two to overdub. Maybe George was sitting there giving it his
complete attention while the overdub was taking place, but based on my
own experiences in the studio (sorry!), it's equally likely that he
was off reading a magazine, practicing his guitar, having a snack,
recording a demo for one of his own tunes in a different studio (same
building)...

Just loves these posters who get into the head of a beatle.
LOL

Doug Campbell

unread,
Nov 25, 2003, 1:51:39 PM11/25/03
to

Joe Silver wrote:

> 4. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, if I were a recording artist
> and had the ability to play over changes like those in "Honey Pie"
> (which aren't that easy if you haven't had the training; for example,
> the Eb7 chord in bar 3 is a big land mine waiting to be stepped on, if
> you're a player who hasn't had a certain amount of training in
> harmony), I would do so more often, just for the challenge of it.

It's a big landmine if you're improvising and all of a sudden here comes
that weird change. As far as I can see there's been no evidence either
way that the solo was improvised or predetermined. George's comment that
(paraphrased) 'you just close your eyes and cross your fingers' (or was
it cross your eyes and close your fingers?) may even have referred to
Lennon working out the solo prior to the take.

DC

Donz5

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Nov 25, 2003, 2:16:30 PM11/25/03
to
Joe Silver wrote:

>1. I think it's possible George's memory failed him in this instance.

I think you have absolutely no basis to think that. As I previously posted,
George was definitive in his answer as to who played that part. Whereas he was
deliberately _not_ definitive in his answer as to who played with him in "And
Your Bird Can Sing."

>2. I think it's possible George *wanted* that solo to be John. No, I
>don't have loads of evidence to support this, but it's just a vague
>feeling that George had warmer feelings toward John than Paul.

Which he had never expressed in the past. Not only do you lack "loads of
evidence," but now you're just making some up out of whole cloth, basing
conclusions on "vague feelings" on how George _really_ thought.

>3. It doesn't sound to me like John. It just doesn't.

Irrelevant. I didn't think that John played the piano on "Oh! Darling," but the
documented evidence is too persuasive for me to dismiss it anymore.

>4. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, if I were a recording artist
>and had the ability to play over changes like those in "Honey Pie"
>(which aren't that easy if you haven't had the training; for example,
>the Eb7 chord in bar 3 is a big land mine waiting to be stepped on, if
>you're a player who hasn't had a certain amount of training in
>harmony), I would do so more often, just for the challenge of it.

As Mr. Charlie noted, John's not you, and you're not John. You're projecting
your own tastes and challenges to John's. Always an extremely weak argument.
You could extend that to songwriting. Why, if you were writing, say, "In My
Life," you would have used this chord instead of that one. Conclusion: John
used the wrong chord. Just one problem: John used the chord he chose, not you.

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