Buddy Holly in Liverpool mystery

[hislop]

A mystery shows up in the Lewisohn Beatle history, All These Years

None of John, Paul, George or Ringo went to see Buddy Holly perform
live, or Jerry Lee Lewis when they went to Liverpool.
Paul had seen Bill Haley on stage, but all four seemed indifferent to
seeing Buddy Holly. Lewisohn seems genuinely mystified by this and has
no explanation.
The only guess I have, is that they might have decided that seeing
performer's live could not work. They always saw all the rock and roll
movies.
Someone should go ask Paul.

[hislop]

I'm guessing previous live shows of other acts had been disappointing.

From Lewisohn:

It was to the Morgue Skiffle Cellar that they travelled the evening
of Thursday 20 March, where they watched the Texans, the Bluegenes and
the Sioux City Skiffle Group in action. But why they were here and not
back in the city, at the Philharmonic Hall, remains unexplained, because
this was the night Buddy Holly and the Crickets came to play in
Liverpool – and these most devoted of fans chose not to go. It wasn’t
just because of the attractions at the Morgue: tickets for Holly had
been on sale a month, before the cellar club was even known about. Nor
was it the expense: tickets were reasonably priced, only four to twelve
shillings. Even more oddly, they weren’t the only absentees – the
Evening Express reported afterwards how the combined audience for both
houses at the Philharmonic would not have half-filled the Empire.
John, Paul and George were well aware Buddy and the Crickets were in
the country because they’d been glued to ITV the night of 2 March to see
them on Sunday Night At The London Palladium.

Jerry Lee Lewis:
The tour actually carried on without him, second-billed act the
Treniers (a black vocal/instrumental group from America) promoted to
headline act. It arrived as scheduled at Liverpool Odeon the following
Sunday, but as there was never any mention of disappointment over Jerry
Lee’s absence from Richy Starkey, John Lennon, Paul McCartney or George
Harrison, it seems none of them had tickets anyway, big Lewis fans
though they were.* Richy never went to any shows in this period (he also
wasn’t at Buddy Holly), but he did have a formative experience through
seeing a star.[Johnny Ray]

*68 If there’s an explanation for this, it remains unknown.

[hislop]

A bit more from Lewisohn on this mystery:

As Paul says:

That was the big occasion – to watch his fingers, see what guitar he
had, to see if he played the chords right, to see how he did that solo
in Peggy Sue, see whether he used a capo or not, all the various
technical things – that was where you got the info.

And John:

I only saw them on the London Palladium (on TV). He was great! It was
the first time I saw a Fender guitar! Being played! While the singer
sang!! Also the ‘secret’ of the drumming on Peggy Sue was revealed…
live… We did practically everything he put out. What he did with ‘3’
chords made a songwriter out of me!! He was the first guy I ever saw
with a capo. He made it OK to wear glasses! I WAS Buddy Holly.

With such enthusiasm, it is astounding they didn’t go to see him in
person when it was so easy to do so. At four o’clock that afternoon,
John came out of the art college and Paul and George came out of school
and though Buddy Holly – Buddy Holly! – was just a couple of hundred
yards along the same street, all the way over from Texas and rehearsing
in ‘the Phil’ with the Crickets and his drool-over Fender Stratocaster
guitar, they turned and went home. Then, after tea, they took a series
of buses up to the Morgue.

This is marginally less surprising for John than the others: he
hadn’t been to any concerts and was never interested in them, or in
photographs, autographs, fan clubs or any of the paraphernalia
associated with stars; as he often said, he was only ever interested in
the record. But George had been to quite a few rock and roll shows at
the Empire, enthusing over artists he held in much lower regard than
Holly, and Paul had paid a small fortune to see Bill Haley and been ever
keen to queue for autographs outside stage doors. He said a few years
later that he waited outside the Empire for the signature of Wee Willie
Harris – this must have been during the week commencing 31 March, when
Harris was in Liverpool to star in the ill-conceived and poorly received
touring show Stars Of 6.5 Special At The 2I’s. Eleven or so days after
ignoring his eternal hero Holly when he was just across the street, Paul
went to the bother of hanging around in town for the autograph of the
silly Willie, a ‘2i’s discovery’ who was but a quaint pink-haired parody
of American rock stars, a vaudevillian villain whose first stage show
was reviewed by the NME as ‘He sang six numbers, or was it the same
number six times?’

[zippl...@gmail.com]

No. They weren't interested. Leave it at that.

[Marcus]

I don't know the answer to this for sure, but my suggestion is that they had a gig that night

Here are some excerpts about the Quarrymen from Mark Lewisohn's "The Complete Beatles Chronicles", pg 16

"Thursday 13 March (1958), The Morgue Skiffle Club, Balgownie, Oakhill Park, Broadgreen, Liverpool"

"The opening night of a club run by 18 year-old Alan Caldwell who had his own group, Al Caldwell's Texans...Caldwell later took the stage name Rory Storm and his Texans became the Hurricanes."


This is Marc here. I am leaving out a paragraph about the appalling and dangerously unsafe conditions of this club which held up to 100 people.


Again from Lewisohn:


"Not surprisingly, because of the illegality and danger in holding meetings in such an apparently decrepit environment, its existence was short-lived. On 1 April police halted the proceedings and on 22 April the venue closed for ever. Club nights at the Morgue cellar took place on Tuesdays and Thursdays, though no records exist to indicate which groups played when. One can safely assume, though, that the Quarry Men attended on at least a handful of occasions."



Marc again, I don't know if this is the answer to why John, Paul or George didn't go to the Buddy Holly concert(not sure where Ringo was, but he wasn't a member of Caldwell's band until a year later), but Holly played Liverpool on Thursday, March 20, 1958, and though this venue(the Morgue) was only open from March 13th - April 22nd of 1958, if the Quarrymen played there on the only days it was open (Tuesdays & Thursdays), it's possible they played there the same night that Holly played Liverpool.


Marc

[BlackMonk]

Other possibilities:
One of them could have had a cold.
One of them could have had a date.
One of them could have been broke.
They could have gone to see a different band, perhaps at this club.
They didn't know Buddy Holly was going to within a year and figured they
would see him next time he came around.


I'm not sure Paul, Ringo, or anyone would be able to tell you why they
didn't go somewhere on a specific night almost sixty years ago.

[robbs...@gmail.com]

I missed a lot of great shows in my late teens/early twenties, because I simply didn't have the bux for the tix. Might've been economic...

Tangential: When I was 16, Grand Funk Railroad was coming to town. The Ancient (by American standards) Boston Garden. 1971. Me and my pals were of course completely obsessed with these guys, along with Sabbath, the Woodstock soundtrack, etc., and this was going to be my First Real Rock Concert We gave one guy a bunch of cash, he took the train in from our obscure Boston suburb, came back and distributed the tix.

However, when you're 16, you've got a toe into adulthood, and a whole buncha foot still into pre-pubescent shenanigans. We collected our tickets, I stuck mine in my back pocket, and off we went to the railroad tracks to smoke dope and hang out.

On the Needham Commuter Rail Line, just across the border in West Roxbury, there was a triangular concrete bridge support. Just one. No actual bridge, no corresponding support on the other side of the tracks, just this lone support that they'd built, and then I guess just decided to stop building the rest of it. We'd spend hours sliding down the sides of this thing - great fun.

The GFR ticket, as you might remember, was in my back pocket. Not for long, as my pocket left town pretty early on. Damn. We looked, never found it.

So My First Ever Rock Concert had to be Led Zep, at the same venue, on the 4th album tour.

[Eric Ramon]

good one! In my old age...well my wife and I attended a few operas and ballets so for my birthday she got us two tickets, months in advance. "Months" is the key. A week went by, a month, another...we totally forgot about the event. $90 tickets too. Ouch!

[hislop]

I added more posts which go into some detail as to what they did that night.

[hislop]

I added more posts which go into more detail about that night.
Lewisohn is genuinely mystified.

[Marcus]

Yes, I didn't see those posts until after I posted my reply.

Paul McCartney is a huge Buddy Holly fan, MPL communications owns the rights to Holly's songs. Holly played in Liverpool. Has anyone, including Lewisohn, just asked Paul why he didn't go.

Maybe the answer is something simple like, "I was only 15 years old, it was a school night and my father wouldn't let me go."

[hislop]

I already posted what Lewisohn said they did that day, they went out to
some place to watch skiffle groups and such. I said someone should ask
Paul as well.
This is a genuine mystery. My only impression is that they didn't want
to see live acts that way for some reason. Bill Haley had reportedly
been disappointing. They could probably see the guitar playing better
on television too.
I posted what Lewisohn put in the book in two posts in the thread.

[abeslaney]

That's a funny story. I lived nearby in Auburndale until we moved to the
northern suburbs. My first concert - not exactly sure because they were
so close together in time - was either Mahavishnu Orchestra at UMass in
Lowell, OR Johnny Winter And at the old Boston Music Hall. Both would
have been sometime in May, 1973 and both were great, memorable shows and
could not have been more different.

[Stephen X. Carter]

On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 01:14:44 +1000, hislop <takecar...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Maybe they could not get tickets? Could not afford tickets?

--
steve.hat.stephencarter.not.com.but.net
Nothing is Beatle Proof!!
Mr Kite posters and more at http://www.zazzle.com/mr_kite*
Mr Kite posters and more at http://www.zazzle.co.uk/mr_kite*

[hislop]

On 12/04/2015 7:34 PM, Stephen X. Carter wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 01:14:44 +1000, hislop <takecar...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> A mystery shows up in the Lewisohn Beatle history, All These Years
>>
>> None of John, Paul, George or Ringo went to see Buddy Holly perform
>> live, or Jerry Lee Lewis when they went to Liverpool.
>> Paul had seen Bill Haley on stage, but all four seemed indifferent to
>> seeing Buddy Holly. Lewisohn seems genuinely mystified by this and has
>> no explanation.
>> The only guess I have, is that they might have decided that seeing
>> performer's live could not work. They always saw all the rock and roll
>> movies.
>> Someone should go ask Paul.
>
>
> Maybe they could not get tickets? Could not afford tickets?
>

Lewisohn did attempt to cover the possibilities. I posted in this same
thread what he wrote.
Later in the book he says that Lennon didn't like seeing groups live.

[BlackMonk]

He said that the expense wouldn't have been a problem because it was
only 20 shillings or something. It's easy to be cavalier with someone
else's finances, especially 60 years after the fact.

There are too many variables to make any assumptions. Maybe they didn't
go because it looked like rain, or when they went to get tickets, the
bus was late and they didn't feel like waiting, or they planned to go,
but got too drunk beforehand. Anything's possible.

[hislop]

But Lewishohn describes what they did that night. I was wondering if
they were threatened by teds or something, keeping people from
collecting together in Liverpool.

[Stephen X. Carter]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 11:54:35 +1000, hislop <takecar...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> It was to the Morgue Skiffle Cellar that they travelled the
>evening of Thursday 20 March, where they watched the Texans, the
>Bluegenes and the Sioux City Skiffle Group in action. But why they were
>here and not back in the city, at the Philharmonic Hall, remains
>unexplained, because this was the night Buddy Holly and the Crickets
>came to play in Liverpool – and these most devoted of fans chose not to
>go. It wasn’t just because of the attractions at the Morgue: tickets for
>Holly had been on sale a month, before the cellar club was even known
>about. Nor was it the expense: tickets were reasonably priced, only four
>to twelve shillings. Even more oddly, they weren’t the only absentees –
>the Evening Express reported afterwards how the combined audience for
>both houses at the Philharmonic would not have half-filled the Empire.
> John, Paul and George were well aware Buddy and the Crickets were
>in the country because they’d been glued to ITV the night of 2 March to
>see them on Sunday Night At The London Palladium.

Clearly there are only possilbe two ways to perhaps resolve this
intractable question.

Either one of us invents a Time Machine to go back to Liverpool on that
night and ask them why they are not at the Buddy Holly Concert.

Or, we get out the Ouijaa (sp?) board and see if either John or George
can remember, because Paul & Richie certainly don't seem to be telling!
:-)

Actually, if I were to invent a Time Machine the time I'd go back to
would be the sunday evening when The Beatles went to see The Rolling
Stones at The Crawdaddy for the first time and then they all went back
to Mick/Keith/Brian/Phelge's flat in Edith Grove. That would be
something! That really would be something.

On the way I'd take a look at the Grassy Knoll and see if E Howard Hunt
really was there with his umbrella.

[hislop]

A bit of a broad subject. I've always been interested in the meeting of
the Beatles with the Byrds.

[BeatleEd]

hislop <takecar...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Actually, if I were to invent a Time Machine the time I'd go back to
>> would be the sunday evening when The Beatles went to see The Rolling
>> Stones at The Crawdaddy for the first time and then they all went
>> back to Mick/Keith/Brian/Phelge's flat in Edith Grove. That would
>> be something! That really would be something.
>>
>> On the way I'd take a look at the Grassy Knoll and see if E Howard
>> Hunt really was there with his umbrella.
>>
> A bit of a broad subject. I've always been interested in the meeting
> of the Beatles with the Byrds.
>
>

I'd go back to the day John and Paul met and befriend one or both of them.

[Eric Ramon]

assuming you were around their age. Otherwise, hey might think you (or I) a little creepy if you (we) were to become "chummy".

[zippl...@gmail.com]

On Monday, April 13, 2015 at 7:27:37 AM UTC-5, Stephen X. Carter wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 11:54:35 +1000, hislop <takecar...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > It was to the Morgue Skiffle Cellar that they travelled the
> >evening of Thursday 20 March, where they watched the Texans, the
> >Bluegenes and the Sioux City Skiffle Group in action. But why they were
> >here and not back in the city, at the Philharmonic Hall, remains
> >unexplained, because this was the night Buddy Holly and the Crickets

> >came to play in Liverpool - and these most devoted of fans chose not to

> >go. It wasn't just because of the attractions at the Morgue: tickets for
> >Holly had been on sale a month, before the cellar club was even known
> >about. Nor was it the expense: tickets were reasonably priced, only four

> >to twelve shillings. Even more oddly, they weren't the only absentees -

> >the Evening Express reported afterwards how the combined audience for
> >both houses at the Philharmonic would not have half-filled the Empire.
> > John, Paul and George were well aware Buddy and the Crickets were
> >in the country because they'd been glued to ITV the night of 2 March to
> >see them on Sunday Night At The London Palladium.
>
> Clearly there are only possilbe two ways to perhaps resolve this
> intractable question.
>
> Either one of us invents a Time Machine to go back to Liverpool on that
> night and ask them why they are not at the Buddy Holly Concert.
>
> Or, we get out the Ouijaa (sp?) board and see if either John or George
> can remember, because Paul & Richie certainly don't seem to be telling!
> :-)
>
> Actually, if I were to invent a Time Machine the time I'd go back to
> would be the sunday evening when The Beatles went to see The Rolling
> Stones at The Crawdaddy for the first time and then they all went back
> to Mick/Keith/Brian/Phelge's flat in Edith Grove.

> steve.hat.stephencarter.not.com.but.net
> Nothing is Beatle Proof!!
> Mr Kite posters and more at http://www.zazzle.com/mr_kite*
> Mr Kite posters and more at http://www.zazzle.co.uk/mr_kite*

I've heard that a time machine is possible, but you can only go forwards,
not backwards. Is this true?

[BlackMonk]

On 4/13/2015 2:24 PM, zippl...@gmail.com wrote:

> I've heard that a time machine is possible, but you can only go forwards,
> not backwards. Is this true?

Yes, I have such a machine. It'll take you sixty seconds into the
future, and it only takes a minute to run.

[zippl...@gmail.com]

Oh no, can't do that. Will get gout. :-)

[Stephen X. Carter]

On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 11:24:57 -0700 (PDT), zippl...@gmail.com wrote:

>I've heard that a time machine is possible, but you can only go forwards,
>not backwards. Is this true?

Broadly, yes. But it's only (at present) on the level of quanta.

Similarly teleportation is possible at that level over short distances.

--

[BeatleEd]

Stephen X. Carter <steve@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 11:24:57 -0700 (PDT), zippl...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>I've heard that a time machine is possible, but you can only go forwards,
>>not backwards. Is this true?
>
> Broadly, yes. But it's only (at present) on the level of quanta.
>
> Similarly teleportation is possible at that level over short distances.
>

Stephen Hawking haad the best take on time travel. If it were possible,
we'd have seen someone by now.

[Marcus]

Who would we ask? Mr. Peabody?

[zippl...@gmail.com]

Yes. :-)

[Kaili]

Rod Taylor

[BlackMonk]

That brings up the question, would anyone really want to spend an
extended period of time in the past? A lot of things you take for
granted and enjoy in the present won't have been invented yet, and the
people are all going to seem backward.

Anyone who does travel into the past is going to be very careful about
keeping it quiet, anyway, if not to avoid changing the future, at least
to avoid being committed.

Then again, it is possible that time travel has been discovered several
times, but each time it's discovered, the person goes into the past and
inadvertently changes history so they aren't born.

[hislop]

That was my thought.
They seemed like a bunch of ne'er do wells.
Almost anyone around was game for Lennon unless they stood up to him.

[hislop]

I can confirm it's true. I've tried it.
I complained but no one listened.

[zippl...@gmail.com]

Pretty far out theory but I love it.

[zippl...@gmail.com]

:-)

No one can prove we're not from another planet.

[Tim]

Mow that's what I'd call "Heavvvvy"!!

[Marcus]

On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 1:43:17 AM UTC-4, BlackMonk wrote:
>> That brings up the question, would anyone really want to spend an
> extended period of time in the past? A lot of things you take for
> granted and enjoy in the present won't have been invented yet, and the
> people are all going to seem backward.

I wouldn't mind seeing some scenes from the past, but not actually spend an extended period of time.

However, if I could visit the past to meet one person, it would be Jesus.

>
> Anyone who does travel into the past is going to be very careful about
> keeping it quiet, anyway, if not to avoid changing the future, at least
> to avoid being committed.

For awhile it seems that there were a few stories where a slight change in the past results in the Nazis winning WWII. Star Trek had an episode like that too.

>
> Then again, it is possible that time travel has been discovered several
> times, but each time it's discovered, the person goes into the past and
> inadvertently changes history so they aren't born.

The old "what if you traveled to the past and accidentally killed your grandfather?" theory.

[Fattuchus]

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 11:14:48 AM UTC-4, hislop wrote:
> A mystery shows up in the Lewisohn Beatle history, All These Years
>
> None of John, Paul, George or Ringo went to see Buddy Holly perform
> live, or Jerry Lee Lewis when they went to Liverpool.
> Paul had seen Bill Haley on stage, but all four seemed indifferent to
> seeing Buddy Holly. Lewisohn seems genuinely mystified by this and has
> no explanation.
> The only guess I have, is that they might have decided that seeing
> performer's live could not work. They always saw all the rock and roll
> movies.
> Someone should go ask Paul.

I have not read the Lewisohn book, but I find it hard to believe that Lennon would be "indifferent" as far as seeing Buddy Holly. He was a big fan. There can be many reasons not to attend a live show.

[Fattuchus]

On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 11:28:43 PM UTC-4, Marcus wrote:
> On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 9:39:48 PM UTC-4, hislop wrote:

> > On 11/04/2015 8:08 AM, Marcus wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 10, 2015 at 11:14:48 AM UTC-4, hislop wrote:
> > >> A mystery shows up in the Lewisohn Beatle history, All These Years
> > >>
> > >> None of John, Paul, George or Ringo went to see Buddy Holly perform
> > >> live, or Jerry Lee Lewis when they went to Liverpool.
> > >> Paul had seen Bill Haley on stage, but all four seemed indifferent to
> > >> seeing Buddy Holly. Lewisohn seems genuinely mystified by this and has
> > >> no explanation.
> > >> The only guess I have, is that they might have decided that seeing
> > >> performer's live could not work. They always saw all the rock and roll
> > >> movies.
> > >> Someone should go ask Paul.
> > >

> > > I don't know the answer to this for sure, but my suggestion is that they had a gig that night
> > >
> > > Here are some excerpts about the Quarrymen from Mark Lewisohn's "The Complete Beatles Chronicles", pg 16
> > >
> > > "Thursday 13 March (1958), The Morgue Skiffle Club, Balgownie, Oakhill Park, Broadgreen, Liverpool"
> > >
> > > "The opening night of a club run by 18 year-old Alan Caldwell who had his own group, Al Caldwell's Texans...Caldwell later took the stage name Rory Storm and his Texans became the Hurricanes."
> > >
> > >
> > > This is Marc here. I am leaving out a paragraph about the appalling and dangerously unsafe conditions of this club which held up to 100 people.
> > >
> > >
> > > Again from Lewisohn:
> > >
> > >
> > > "Not surprisingly, because of the illegality and danger in holding meetings in such an apparently decrepit environment, its existence was short-lived. On 1 April police halted the proceedings and on 22 April the venue closed for ever. Club nights at the Morgue cellar took place on Tuesdays and Thursdays, though no records exist to indicate which groups played when. One can safely assume, though, that the Quarry Men attended on at least a handful of occasions."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Marc again, I don't know if this is the answer to why John, Paul or George didn't go to the Buddy Holly concert(not sure where Ringo was, but he wasn't a member of Caldwell's band until a year later), but Holly played Liverpool on Thursday, March 20, 1958, and though this venue(the Morgue) was only open from March 13th - April 22nd of 1958, if the Quarrymen played there on the only days it was open (Tuesdays & Thursdays), it's possible they played there the same night that Holly played Liverpool.
> > >
> > >
> > > Marc
> > >
> >
> > I added more posts which go into some detail as to what they did that night.
>
> Yes, I didn't see those posts until after I posted my reply.
>
> Paul McCartney is a huge Buddy Holly fan, MPL communications owns the rights to Holly's songs. Holly played in Liverpool. Has anyone, including Lewisohn, just asked Paul why he didn't go.
>
> Maybe the answer is something simple like, "I was only 15 years old, it was a school night and my father wouldn't let me go."

BTW, marcus, what do you think of those Mets? Seven wins in a row.

[Marcus]

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 2:20:17 AM UTC-4, Fattuchus wrote:

> BTW, marcus, what do you think of those Mets? Seven wins in a row.

Not discussing...don't want to jinx it. ;-)