Jack Douglas exposes Yoko's evil - Beatlefan
rig...@my-dejanews.com
Douglas.
Read it and weep, Yoko defenders and brown noses.
Lennon's Last Sessions
Producer Jack Douglas on Recording 'Double Fantasy.'
When John Lennon and Yoko Ono decided to return to the recording studio in
1980, they enlisted an old cohort to produce the sessions. In this revealing
conversation, he tells Ken Sharp what it was like ....
Producer-engineer Jack Douglas was known primarily for his work with
Aerosmith and Cheap Trick before he got a mysterious phone call in 1980 that
launched him into John Lennon's 'comeback' recording sessions - also his
final sessions, as it turned out. Contributing Editor Ken Sharp talked with
Douglas recently about those sessions and Lennon's work with Cheap Trick- one
track of which is included in the new 'John Lennon Anthology' box set ...
Q: I want to get into the Lennon "Double Fantasy" sessions, but I didn't
realize that you'd worked with John prior to that on, was it, the "Imagine"
album or the song "Imagine"?
A: The "Imagine" album.
Q: You engineered some of that?
A: Yeah. Well, I was second engineer. Roy Cicala was first engineer but
that was where I met John.
Q: What was that like working with John back then?
A: It was amazing and it's so weird because we got to be friends. I was
working in one studio; I was doing editing while he was tracking in another
room and doing vocals. I mean, there was no way I was allowed to do vocals
with him. I was way too young but he came in and I was putting stuff
together and editing and he said to me "How ya doing?" You know, I'd met him
earlier in the day but this was the first day and I said "OK, OK.' I wanted
to be nervous but like I said, he wouldn't let you be. And he lit up a smoke
and I said to him "I've been to Liverpool" and he looked at me and said "why
the hell would you have been to Liverpool?" and I said well, you want to
hear this story?
Q: Is this the one on the boat? [As a young musician, Douglas and a friend
stowed away on a boat In order to get to Liverpool, only to be caught and
written up in British newspapers.]
A:Yeah. I told him that story. And he, like, cracked up, he was cracking up
'cause they'd read the papers about these idiots who were held captive on
this boat ... after that, he said "What are you doing?" I said, "Well, after
this?" He goes, "Yeah". I said "Nothing." He goes, "You can come with me.'
So we went out, you know, and he took me to a party and he was like - see, I
told him I was born and raised in New York, and he would say to me, "See that
guy over there?" "Yeah" and if I knew him, he'd say, "Well, who is he? What
is he?" I'd say, "Well ... that guy's an asshole. Don't even go near him.
He'll fuck and suck your blood." "Thanks, man." It was like one of those kind
of things.
Q: So you continued the friendship through the' 70s?
A: Yeah, all through it. And, in fact, I was staying with him out in L.A.
during the crazy period (the so-called 'Lost Weekend") while I was producing
Alice Cooper.
Q: Oh, okay "Muscle Love"?
A: "Muscle Love", yeah. And so I was hanging, I was hanging with him and I
was doing Yoko records. All those crazy records with Yoko during which John
was most of the time not allowed in the studio.
Q: Really.
A: Yeah. You know, I never let those two…very rarely when I did "Double
Fantasy" did I ever have them in the room at the same time.
Q: Why?
A: It just didn't work. John always wanted to get in to Yoko's stuff and she
could not bear it. It was already . . . there was already too much
competition between those two.
Q: You really think there was, even then?
A: Yeah. Absolutely. And so it was, it just was when John came in and heard
what she did after it was done, it was like 'Yeah!" he'd get really excited.
But if he was there ...
Q: Would she be excited, conversely, with what he did?
A: Nah, "That's good, John", you know. But, yeah, he was always good. For
her, getting her part done was the biggest challenge, you know. And I mean,
he was just ... I mean, for me, he was the ultimate guy to produce because he
was such a true professional. He always left his ego outside the door when
he came into work.
Q: What was he like as a player?
A: He was a great rhythm player. He could not play lead to save his life.
Very small hands, so he had no reach at all. But man, rhythm ...
Q: How did you get enlisted to produce "Double Fantasy" and wasn't It a secret
for awhile? If you can talk about how it was kept hush-hush ...
A: Yeah. How did I get ... I think I ran into John about six months before
we did that record, maybe almost a year. I was in a health food store over
on the East Side and in comes John and Sean, who was maybe 3. And the nanny
and they were just coming from the YMCA where they'd been swimming. And John
comes up and goes 'Hey, Jack' and I hadn't seen him in years. "Jack, how ya
doing? What's happening? Oh, you're a big producer now.' He was always
kidding me, or goofing with me. And I was goofing back with him. And he
told me, 'Why don't you call me?" Gave me his number, and he said "Come on
over to the Dakota and hang out' and I just, I took the number and I stuck it
in my pocket and my wife said to me, 'Wow, that s great, he wants you to come
over and hang out and stuff, 'And I said 'Yeah, I'll do it, you know, but,
you know, maybe he was, I mean, he's so involved with his family now and he's
kinda out of the business. I'll call him sometime.' I never did. I never
did. Stupid, too, isn't it?
Q: Damn, If John Lennon gave me his phone number ...
A: And I never, I never called him. I always felt like 'I don't want to
really bother him," you know and It turns out he would have liked to have
gotten that call and it was really stupid of me not to do it but anyway the
thing was John was - we had a relationship and it was a good, trusting
relationship and also I had that same relationship with Yoko. She also
trusted me; she knew that I respected her work. And that I was a trustworthy
person and John, I once asked him, I said -well into the album, we're sitting
there and mixing and I said to him "I meant to ask you, why am I doing this
record with you?' I said, "I just wanted to know..."He said, "Because you
have good antenna and that works for me because you always can read me, you
know what this is about' and that s pretty cool because I always felt that
was one of my strong points but it was very important to him to be able to so
easily communicate with his producer. And again, like I said, because he was
so without ago when he was working, he would just take a direction- If I told
John, 'For this vocal, I need you to stand on your head," he'd say, 'if you
think that's better, I'll do it.' I mean, he was like that.
Q: Were there any tracks that took a bit more time for him to nail?
A: I don't remember. Sure ... they all took about an equal amount of time.
"Beautiful Boy" maybe took a little bit longer because of the chorus. Then
he would double. He would double track his vocal, like in Beautiful Boy,
like he would double. First shot. He loved doubling. Yeah, he was the
perfect doubler. But you know, he doubled because he hated the sound of his
voice. And I used to tell him, 'John, you don't have to double." I mean,
when he sent me the demos from Bermuda - you have to understand that these
are recorded on a boom box, right, a Panasonic, and it was just acoustic
guitar or in one case, piano on 'Real Love' and him and I think, Fred Seaman,
banging on pots and pans, and he actually took the time to play those from
one Panasonic to another one and double his vocal because he couldn't bear
that - I would hear these things with a single vocal.
Q: What did you think of Seaman, by the way? He's now like this vilified
character.
A: Fred, was like, you know, he just got hammered, man, I mean, there was no
- John loved him and he was hired to be John's assistant. I mean, wherever
John went, he brought Fred, you know? And, I mean, Fred, he probably made a
couple of mistakes. But what he got nailed for was like really off the wall.
John - and I was there - John used to get things sent to him, not just one
thing, he'd get a boom box, or a cassette machine, they'd send him two, three
of them, or they'd just send him one - he just didn't want all the stuff that
he used to get from companies. Everybody would just want him to say "I use
this,' you know. And he was getting complimentary stuff all the time and he
told Fred one day, 'Take that," he says, "Go in the room, Fred, and take
whatever you want, man, you can have it." And Fred went in and he took stuff
and he brought it home and it was practical stuff he could use but Yoko had
somebody always keeping an inventory of everything that was in that room and
so, I mean, you know, Fred never, like, signed this stuff out. John told
him, 'Keep it Take it, I don't want that crap' and when Fred finally got
nailed it was because they said, well, you know, there's this stuff missing
and you might find it at Fred Seaman's house. And once they went there, they
matched the serial numbers, it was like a grand larceny rap. And so, that's
what he got taken down on and it was really like, you know, he was there to
keep a journal for John ... and whatever John ever asked him to do, Fred was
like right there. It was a bum rap.
Q: Tell me about the secretiveness of the sessions.
A: Well, I'll go back a little bit here ... You probably already know the
story that I got flown out in a sea plane to Glen Cove to the big house out
there and a seaplane right onto the beach, hush-hush, and I already knew I
was being asked to do a record because I had already gotten the phone call
from Yoko and John. He's going back, he wants to talk to me about making this
record; 'Don't say anything to anyone; just go to 34th Street, get on a
seaplane and come out.' And I came out and Yoko said to me, she handed me the
envelope 'For Jack's Eyes Only. Or was it 'For Jack's Ears Only'? Maybe it
was both. And she said, "John is going to call you in a few minutes.' She
said, 'But I just want to tell you, he's going to ask you to do a record." I
went, 'Cool, that's great.' 'You would produce it with us.' 'Cool.' She said,
I'm going to have a few songs on it and John doesn't know yet.' "OK.' She
said, 'You can't tell him.' 'All right; you tell him.' So I had opened the
tape; there was one cassette from John. And Yoko said, 'Now here's some of
the songs' so she handed me a thing, like a stack ...
Q: Of her songs?
A: Yeah, a stack. I mean, she'd been in the Record Plant with Elephants
Memory, doing demos ... I wonder where those demos are; some of them were
very cool. And just a stack of not cassettes, of 5-inch reels, of seven and a
half, dozens and dozens of songs. And I was like shook up, 'You gonna have a
couple of tunes on this record?' Handing me stacks and John finally called me
and he said, you know, "I don't really think I have that much stuff, you
know.' He eventually sent me another one. He said, "I think if s kind of the
same old shit' and actually that is on the tape, him saying that. 'Most of
it, I think we'll give to Ringo" and 'The deal is, I don't know if this is
really going to come off.' He said, 'I'm going to give it a try but, Jack,
I've been out of it for a while and I don't even know what's going on. . So
the deal was put together a band, arrange the songs any way I thought would
work, I mean, as you know, if you've heard any of those things that are out
around, you know, that things like ... 'Watching the Wheels" was like
boom-jang, boom-jang, it was like fast, and almost Dylany and stuff. And he
wrote me a letter saying, 'Can you make it sound circular?' You know, it was
all these instructions I got from him and the deal was 'Don't tell anyone
this is happening.' We put together the band.
Q: I was curious about why you chose some of those players.
A: I wanted guys that were - well, he knew Hughie [McCracken), anyway. And he
knew (Andy Newmark] and he'd played with him. So these were guys who were his
contemporaries. So the important thing for me there was if John made a
reference to something that was maybe from the early '60s, or even the '50s
these were guys who would know what he was talking about.
Q: Quick.
A: Yeah, quick was very important. I did not want guys who went "duh' and I
also needed
guys who could read. You know, the only guy who couldn't read was Ed [Slick].
And I brought in Ed because he'd done such fine work with David Bowie.
A: Let me just go back a little bit ... now the band didn't know, had no idea
who they were - Tony Davilio and I did all the charts for all the songs
except for 'Starting Over, which did not exist at that time, just didn't
exist. So I'm singing all of the songs to the band at rehearsal an octave
lower than he would sing 'am. And they're like 'Wow, great songs, Jack, but
really, the vocals, I mean, who's singing these things?" Apparently, a couple
of the guys had guessed but didn't say anything because I told them, you
know, this is a secret session. They all loved it. The pay was good.
They're all getting double.
Q: Of the scale?
A: Yeah. The same with the studio. I booked the time but they didn't know
who for.
Q: The Hit Factory, right?
A: It was way out west. . . it was out of the way. No one would know. We
could go in and out of there without ever being seen.
Q: So what was it like when he first walked In?
A: Well, there was one more rehearsal, the last, the night before the
sessions, the last rehearsal was at the Dakota. He sits down at the Fender
Rhodes and he plays "Starting Over" and I said, "Where'd that come from?" He
said, "Oh, I dunno, it just kinda came.' He said, "You think it'll make it to
this record?" I said, "Make it? " I said, "It's gonna be the first single."
I said, "It's gotta be the first song on the record. You know, come on, it's
perfect." So we recorded that, we went in and rehearsed that in the studio
...
Q: It's the first track you recorded?
A: The first track we recorded. And it just went down. Now, all this time,
we're in there, we were in there a month before there was any acknowledgement
that these sessions were going on. Here was the deal: If word got out that
these things were happening, it was over; it was gonna end. So, I mean, I'd
tell that to the musicians ...
Q: Why was it so secretive?
A: Because he wasn't sure if he could do it. You know, he was very, very
insecure about this stuff. He didn't think he had it any more, you know. He
thought he was too old, he just couldn't write, he couldn't sing, he couldn't
play, nothing.
Q: Do you think once he started playing again with the band ...
A: It took awhile, it took awhile, there were some moments there where yeah,
he was like, "I don't know. . ." I used to have breakfast with him every
morning, he insisted at 9 a.m. I'd come to the Dakota and he was always so
punctual. 9 a.m., he came out his door and we would walk from the Dakota to
La Fortuna on 71st Street, a little cafe. We'd sit in the back, in the
garden, and have chocolate iced cappucinos and talk over what happened last
night, what was gonna happen, what was going on with Yoko, everything. And
then, he'd go back and he'd like take a nap and by 11 o'clock I'd working
with Yoko. But we'd sit there couple of hours and talk through every and
there were moments at La Fortuna when I had to say, "John, really, I swear,
it's good know, it's good, I'm telling ya. Even the vocals, everything, you
sound great.'
Q: What do you remember about the last thing you said to John or what did he
say to you?
A: The last thing I said to him and he said to me was "I'll see you in the
morning at 9 a.m.' The usual. We were going to meet and then we were
mastering that next morning. We were going to master 'Walking on Thin Ice".
It was done. We'd finished the mix so, I mean, I said goodbye to him. I saw
him with this huge, with this big smile on his face and his new leather
jacket that he'd gotten at The Gap a few weeks earlier which he loved, and
there's just this big smile on his face, "I'll see you in the morning."
Q: How long after did you hear [that he'd been shot]?
A: About 45 minutes later.
Q: How did you hear about it?
A: My wife came in and told me. We lived only a few blocks [away].
Q: You must have thought you were hallucinating ...
A: I absolutely did that. I thought I was hallucinating for a good six
months, good six months, it was like, gone - it wasn't a good six months, a
bad six months.
Q: Yeah, of course, of course.
A: I mean, I just flipped out.
Q: What happened after, there was a lawsuit at some point because you weren't
paid royalties? Did that get straightened out? You got paid finally.
A: Yeah, yeah. Boy, what that was. 'Cause I waited like, two years, three
years. I had a contract. I waited like three years then I finally said to
Yoko, you know, 'It's like really like a lot of royalties probably accruing
here. You know, I think it's time like we maybe have ... accountants, have
somebody, you know, you don't have to deal with it, let's just sort it out,
let our people sort it out.' And I got like a nasty letter. Almost like
"Fuck you, you're not getting anything." And it was like "What? I don't get
this." And, I mean, all kinds of nasty business went down after that, you
know, being followed and having people offered money to say bad things about
me. None of which, even if they had succeeded, I mean, Cheap Trick was
approached, none of those things ...
Q: To say bad things about you?
A: Yeah, yeah.
Q: By her? By someone in ...
A: Yeah, someone In her camp, ex -FBI guys, Elliot Mintz.
Q: What do you think of him?
A: Ugh. I'm not an Elliot fan. You doesn't like me; I don't like him ...
weird because John, you know, didn't have one good word for Elliot. Sorry,
Elliot. It's like, if Elliot was coming, John was like 'ugh'. He was more
Yoko's friend. Yeah. I can remember Elliot coming by r place, you know.
Someone brought him their not knowing that it was not a good idea but I came
up and it was a house I had in the Hollywood Hills ... I was doing some
records out there. And I so treasured these great pictures that I had, of
John and 1, that I would take them with me when I was traveling. I was going
to spend six months in a house in Los Angeles so in my little office I had
pictures of John and 1. Amazing picture of John and I listening to 'Starting
Over' for the first time, [while finishing up 'Double Fantasy'] somebody from
the maintenance shop, because we released it as [an advance] single.
Somebody from maintenance said 'Hey, they're playing 'Starting Over on the
radio." John and I went running into the maintenance shop and we're both
standing like dumbfounded, like with these stupid smiles, like kids,
listening to 'Starting Over" and there's a little radio, me and John leaning
over it, unopposed just like kids and somebody took a snap of it and so I had
all these pictures and someone brought Elliot by and Elliot saw these
pictures around my place ...
My place was burglarized and you know what they stole? Pictures. That's
all. All the pictures were gone. Every picture I had. There must have been
a dozen, really beautiful. That's strange.
I mean, all my gold and platinum records ended up in a closet at Yoko's. I
never got them! Well, somebody [took] one out and gave it to me as a birthday
present. They gave me a platinum single and a platinum record.
Q: But you worked on the record, you were very loyal.
A: One day, I asked someone, I'm not gonna mention the name because he's
still working, a loyal employee, who was also a good friend, and I asked him,
"What's the story up there?" and he said, 'I don't know, Jack, for some
reason you are on the enemies list.' And all I could ever think of was that I
knew too much. And that it would be better - she suspected that everyone who
knew a lot over the years was gonna write a book, you know, and that I would
be one of these people who wrote a book and like tried to make money off it.
Q: And you still haven't.
A: You know, I made enough just in the royalties, [they] were like 3 million
bucks. It was like ridiculous and she really lost a good friend because I
was really a friend to her and I really respected her art. And she always
knew that, so she really lost a good friend. I pleaded with her over and
over again every time that we could see each other where I could get a word
in, 'Yoko, don't go to court. This is so silly, let's not go to court. And
when we did, it was a big public to-do. And she really was, I mean, it was a
jury trial, six in the civilize, and the jury was out five minutes, came back
in and the judge screamed at her, and it was like all this. Like how can you
do - it was a matter with the contract. Like she tried to say the contract
was a forgery, all this really weird stuff, brought in people to say that I
... people like [Rolling Stone publisher] Jann
Wenner to say that I was a nobody, that they'd never heard of me ... and then
my lawyer said "Can we talk about how many times you've mentioned him in your
magazine?"... He made Jann read those on the stand.
Q: John was talking about touring?
A: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Q: What was his plan?
A Oh, tremendous production, including and these have to be on some of the
"Lost Lennon Tapes" or whatever they call them his arrangements of songs that
he said 'we never got right,' which were "She Loves You" and "I Want to Hold
Your Hand".
Q: He was gonna do them?
A: Yeah, he was gonna do them. He was going, "You know, we never - we always
wanted to do something like ... but it never got done exactly the way we
wanted to do it."
Q: You remember how he wanted to do some of those songs?
A: He played them on guitar.
Q: And how were they different?
A: Maybe the tempo was a little different but it was more like ideas he had
for what the rest of the band was gonna do. But that was gonna -be in the
show.
Q: He was gonna do some Beetle songs?
A: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Q: I heard that McCartney or Harrison called the studio during the sessions
and Yoko didn't allow the call to be placed through.
A: No, it was McCartney.
Q: What happened?
A: Well, from what I heard and from what I heard from John as well, he was
looking to get. like, hooked up with Paul before Paul went o t' Japan, to do
some writing.
Q: They were going to write together?
A: Yeah. And ... after the sessions, John never left immediately, he'd
always sit in the control room and usually took a little grass. He had this
old opium pipe, it was probably 500 years old, and he'd say to me, "is it all
over?" 'Cause he would never do anything if we were working. And I'd say,
"It's over, John." And he'd sit back and put his feet up on the console and
he'd load up the pipe and sit back and light up and a few of us - I'd ride
home with him because I only lived two blocks from him. And he'd start
talking, you know, reminiscing about things, we'd listen to tile radio and if
a Beatles song came on, he'd talk about it. But the one thing - the
overwhelming feeling about the things that he was saying was that he loved
the guys in that band more than anybody else, you know? He was pissed off at
George because George's book had come out and didn't mention John. You know,
like, "How can he write a book about his life and not mention me? I'm the
most important…" Yeah. But he loved the guys in The Beatles. He loved them.
And he loved that band. And, you know, it was like his band. And I mean,
the way he went on about it ...
Q: And he was gonna write with Paul?
A: He was looking to get hooked up with Paul" yeah. But yeah, that call came
through and that didn't happen. And Paul went off and got in trouble. And
when he got in trouble ...
Q: He didn't get the message from anyone?
A: No.
Q: Who kept him away?
A: I think Yoko probably thought ... I can't speak for Yoko. Maybe she
thought it'd be a distraction. I don't think it would have been.
Q: Who knows what would have happened. But when Paul got busted for pot in
Japan, we were in the studio, when that call came in that he was in trouble,
man, you oughta see John flippin' out.
**
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DinsdaleP
Japan, we were in the studio, when that call came in that he was in trouble,
man, you oughta see John flippin' out.<<
Paul was busted in January 1980, and the Double Fantasy sessions didn't begin
until August 1980. Makes me wonder how much of the rest of Jack Douglas's story
is actually true. Although the part about Elliot Mintz was pretty funny.
- John
Derek J. Larsson
Yoko does seem to have a pattern of burning bridges with
people that she (or they) hired.
One set of comments don't make sense though.
There are casual, informal photos of John & Yoko in the studio
together (during the Double Fantasy sessions).
David Sheff (Playboy) was at the studio when he documented John directing
the choir background vocals & mix on her song "Hard Times Are Over"
(while she was there). Clearly Lennon had a lot to do with
the "Walking On Thin Ice" production/arrangement and "I'm Your Angel"
- which begins with a Lennonesque "Revolution 9" like introduction
(John can also be heard 'whistling' in parts of this song). They also share
the vocals on "Every Man Has A Woman Who Loves Him" - another Yoko song
with Lennon playing '80s new-wave-style' guitar (Pretenders/B52s influence).
... so I don't understand Jack's comments about them been "separated"
at the studio and her not wanting to John to be involved with her stuff.
During the "lost weekend" period ("Muscle Love" -?) .. fine .. but
during "Double Fantasy" not so - he was obviously working on
and involved with at least half of her songs that got recorded during this
period.
-- Derek
======================================================
Derek J. Larsson EMail: derek_...@3com.com
======================================================
Tom
> the "Walking On Thin Ice" production/arrangement and "I'm Your Angel"
> - which begins with a Lennonesque "Revolution 9" like introduction
Two Virgins and Revolution #9, though her work in that field dates long
before she met John. It isn't really very similar to R#9 anyway. It uses
found sounds, as The Beatles did on Yellow Submarine, The Beach Boys did on
Pet Sounds, The Shangri-las did on Remember, etc.
> (John can also be heard 'whistling' in parts of this song).
Barb Alan Atkinson
Miller's "Abracadabra" which came out less than a year later?
Barb
Tom wrote:
> > Clearly Lennon had a lot to do with
> > the "Walking On Thin Ice" production/arrangement and "I'm Your Angel"
> > - which begins with a Lennonesque "Revolution 9" like introduction
> Yoko did her share of work with tape montages, including involvement with
> Two Virgins and Revolution #9, though her work in that field dates long
> before she met John. It isn't really very similar to R#9 anyway. It uses
> found sounds, as The Beatles did on Yellow Submarine, The Beach Boys did on
> Pet Sounds, The Shangri-las did on Remember, etc.
> > (John can also be heard 'whistling' in parts of this song).
Amaranth56
Here, Jack Douglas gives a very plausible account of why Fred took certain
things from the Dakota.
Now it's clear that Yoko SCHEMED to have her songs put on JOHN'S albums WITHOUT
John's knowledge. Jack says right here that John knew nothing about Yoko's
songs being on Double Fantasy. The phone call to Bermuda was just a cover
story.
Tom
>Now it's clear that Yoko SCHEMED to have her songs put on JOHN'S albums
WITHOUT
>John's knowledge.
Put on the album without John's knowledge? You mean she wasn't going to tell
him until after the album was released?
anab...@alphalink.com.au
have made a record,and her artwork would be as well known as it was
before she met him.
Let's face it ,how many of us would know any of the musicians that she
played with in New York in the early 60's?
In all probability her work would be obscure/unknown today if she
hadn't met and married John.
wasn't On Thu, 08 Apr 1999 04:44:00 GMT, "Tom" <Blac...@msn.com>
wrote:
Amaranth56
>>albums WITHOUT John's knowledge.
>
>Put on the album without John's knowledge? You mean she wasn't going to
>tell him until after the album was released?
The scheming came before they ever entered the studio. She arranged with Jack
Douglas to have her songs put on what John thought was to be a solo album (his)
before any studio work began. She told Jack not to tell John because he didn't
know.
In VH1's Beatles Wives And Girlfriends, Jack Douglas also said that John was
furious when he found out that, behind his back, Yoko had arranged to switch
studios. Jack said this said a mouthful about John and Yoko's marriage and
relationship. (I don't have his exact words handy.)
If a *friend* did something like this to me, I'd feel horribly betrayed. But a
spouse??
Tom
>Let's face it ,how many of us would know any of the musicians that she
>played with in New York in the early 60's?
<raises hand>
CaroJ11
>In VH1's Beatles Wives And Girlfriends, Jack Douglas also said that John was
>furious when he found out that, behind his back, Yoko had arranged to switch
>studios. Jack said this said a mouthful about John and Yoko's marriage and
>relationship. (I don't have his exact words handy.)
>
>If a *friend* did something like this to me, I'd feel horribly betrayed. But
I have the exact words:
Anncr: When Lennon found out about the move [Yoko changing recording studios]
he was furious. He summoned Douglas to the studio and reprimanded him...
Douglas: And I realized he must have, he must have, like went off on Yoko,
went off on her. And so she said, "Not me, not me. It was Jack!" And for
the first time I saw, maybe really, really, really saw where their
relationship was. And really, really who ran the show---because when he lost
it...she ran for cover. And she hid behind me."
Ah ha, so THAT's the "formidable dragon lady" pose when she was facing JL's
rage! More of a Cowardly Lion I would think. --CarolJ
richard joly
Who is
_rig...@my-dejanews.com_ ?
According to Dejanews, this person has never posted on Usenet before.
What an entrance, I must say.
Derek J. Larsson
Tom wrote:
> > Clearly Lennon had a lot to do with
> > the "Walking On Thin Ice" production/arrangement and "I'm Your Angel"
> > - which begins with a Lennonesque "Revolution 9" like introduction
> Yoko did her share of work with tape montages, including involvement with
> Two Virgins and Revolution #9, though her work in that field dates long
> before she met John. It isn't really very similar to R#9 anyway. It uses
> found sounds, as The Beatles did on Yellow Submarine,
John Lennon, though commented about this specifcally in his
playboy interview (the book) though. He commented
on all of the details involved such as putting in sounds of
someone throwing money into a hat, a voice that says
"You've got a lucky face" (a Lennonism), and the
Resturant music. Yoko probably contributed .. but
it's clearly a Lennon production.
> (John can also be heard 'whistling' in parts of this song).
> I think that's Tony Levin.
Given that the subject of the song is "the husband"
and the chirpy nature of the whistle .. I doubt it would
be anyone other than Lennon (Levin played bass).
Derek J. Larsson
Amaranth56 wrote:
> Now it's clear that Yoko SCHEMED to have her songs put on JOHN'S albums WITHOUT
> John's knowledge. Jack says right here that John knew nothing about Yoko's
> songs being on Double Fantasy. The phone call to Bermuda was just a cover
> story.
But this also does not make too much sense - if taken literally.
The theme of the album "Double Fantasy" (named after a flower)
was about their relationship .. told from both sides. They are
both photographed together (kissing) on the cover - and Lennon
was very determined to record "a hit" record for Yoko and
"prove her critics wrong" ("Walking On Thin Ice" was going
to be released as a dance club single). All public comments
from Lennon have him encouraging her to record and to be on the album.
The album is subtitled a "heart play" on the inner jacket and
writing sentiments like "Grow Old With Me" and "Starting Over"
doesn't sound to me like Lennon was looking to get Yoko out of the
way - but instead make it a couple album.
When Douglas and John first talked - it may be that he didn't
know Yoko had any real material to record. So Yoko wanted
to secretly get a jump on it and then surprise John later. But
after hearing the B52s in Bermuda - Lennon had ideas of
recording Yoko right then and there.
Plastic Ono, Imagine, Mind Games, Walls & Bridges, Rock 'N Roll
were all solo albums for John. If Lennon wanted to make a solo
album - he would of ... but based on his commentary about the B52s
and how similar it sounded to Yoko - I believe he was strongly
supporting doing a joint album from the start.
[From Playboy]
Lennon: People will then say but why do it (come back album)
with her .. because doing it together is the only way
that it is fun. The Stones have been together for
200 years whoopie! They see a 40 year guy still wearing
lipstick and wiggling his ass and that will be the joke
in the future .. not a couple singing about living,
working, and dreaming together.
CynLennin
> both photographed together (kissing) on the cover - and Lennon
> was very determined to record "a hit" record for Yoko and
> "prove her critics wrong"
Which he did, in a sense, do- wasn't "Kiss, Kiss, Kiss" released as a sort of a
"techno" single that met with some popularity and dance club play? Or am I
hallucinating again?
Cyn
Go n-ithe an cat thú is go n-ithe an diabhal an cat.
Tom
>The scheming came before they ever entered the studio. She arranged with
Jack
>Douglas to have her songs put on what John thought was to be a solo album
(his)
>before any studio work began. She told Jack not to tell John because he
didn't
>know.
>
Aren't you reading a lot into one sentence remembered twenty years after
the fact? One misremembered word would change the entire meaning.
But let's assume Douglas' memory is accurate. All you can infer from it is
that putting alternating tracks on the album was Yoko's idea and that she
hadn't suggested it to John when they hired Douglas. You're filling in the
blanks yourself.
And I still say that programming the album as a dialogue was the only good
idea either of them had during those sessions. If John's material got mixed
reviews as it was, imagine how bad they'd be if "Forgive me, my little
flower princess" had been on the album, and I don't want to think about what
a song that was cut for "You're the One" might sound like.
>In VH1's Beatles Wives And Girlfriends, Jack Douglas also said that John
was
>furious when he found out that, behind his back, Yoko had arranged to
switch
>studios. Jack said this said a mouthful about John and Yoko's marriage and
>relationship. (I don't have his exact words handy.)
>
>If a *friend* did something like this to me, I'd feel horribly betrayed.
But a
>spouse??
You'd feel betrayed because someone switched studios? I can see why John
would have been upset, but I can't see how it can be seen as a betrayal.
("Betrayal" taken to mean something done by Yoko with the intent to injure
John.)
If anything, it's a problem in their delegation of responsibility. John
probably saw it as interfering in his music, while Yoko saw it as part of
the practical details that John seemed happy to let her handle. (Choosing a
label, hiring a producer, etc.)
Tom
>Douglas: And I realized he must have, he must have, like went off on Yoko,
>went off on her. And so she said, "Not me, not me. It was Jack!"
Did this happen or is Douglas guessing?
>And for
>the first time I saw, maybe really, really, really saw where their
>relationship was. And really, really who ran the show---because when he
lost
>it...she ran for cover. And she hid behind me."
>
>Ah ha, so THAT's the "formidable dragon lady" pose when she was facing
JL's
>rage! More of a Cowardly Lion I would think.
She never claimed to be a dragon lady. That would be her critics. So, you're
criticizing her for not being what people call her to insult her?
Anyway, John had a history of being a hitter, and he had 7" and 60 lbs on
her (Just an estimation on the weight). If you were in that situation and he
lost it, wouldn't you run for cover?
Amaranth56
>that putting alternating tracks on the album was Yoko's idea and that she
>hadn't suggested it to John when they hired Douglas. You're filling in the
>blanks yourself.
It seems clear to me that John was working on what he thought was to be a solo
album. On her own, without John's knowledge, Yoko recorded songs to be
included in John's album. The fact that she specifically told Jack not to say
anything to John because John didn't know that Yoko was plotting to have her
songs included on ::ahem:: "John's" album leaves no doubt that she schemed
behind John's back. Just like when she changed studios without letting John
know. No inference or filling on of blanks is necessary. Jack Douglas could
not have been clearer.
>And I still say that programming the album as a dialogue was the only good
>idea either of them had during those sessions. If John's material got mixed
>reviews as it was, imagine how bad they'd be if "Forgive me, my little
>flower princess" had been on the album, and I don't want to think about what
>a song that was cut for "You're the One" might sound like.
I respect your opinion that Double Fantasy was a better album with Yoko's songs
than it would have been as a solo John album. In all honesty, I like a few of
Yoko's songs on DF and M&H. But, with the exception of Anata Te (IMO), none
Yoko's songs compare with the weakest of John's songs. I won't argue the
point. Musical preference is very
personal; there's no right or wrong. To each his or her own :-)
JSeraf7064
solo album. On her own, without John's knowledge, Yoko recorded songs to be
included in John's album. The fact that she specifically told Jack not to
say anything to John because John didn't know that Yoko was plotting to have
her
songs included on ::ahem:: "John's" album leaves no doubt that she schemed
behind John's back. Just like when she changed studios without letting John
know. No inference or filling on of blanks is necessary. Jack Douglas could
not have been clearer.
Yet, you will get plenty of interpretation.
>>And I still say that programming the album as a dialogue was the only good
idea either of them had during those sessions.
>I respect your opinion that Double Fantasy was a better album with Yoko's
songs than it would have been as a solo John album. In all honesty, I like a
few
of Yoko's songs on DF and M&H. But, with the exception of Anata Te (IMO), none
Yoko's songs compare with the weakest of John's songs. I won't argue the
point. Musical preference is very
personal; there's no right or wrong. To each his or her own :-)
And, some of Linda's songs on 'Wide Prairie' were nice. Very good, in fact. If
she perhaps had persued songwriting, she might have written some pretty good
music over the years. And, some people out there would like the songs. And, if
she decided to put 6 songs on one of Paul's albums, someone out there would
consider them to be as good as or better than Paul's.
But, thankfully, she didn't try to. Could you imagine Linda scheming to get six
of her songs on one of Paul's albums?
What would we think of her if she tried?
That's what I think about Yoko.
Yoko had as much of a place putting six songs on John Lennon's album as I
would have.
-JS
Tom
>
>It seems clear to me that John was working on what he thought was to be a
solo
>album.
in the planning stages.
> On her own, without John's knowledge, Yoko recorded songs to be
>included in John's album.
>The fact that she specifically told Jack not to say
>anything to John because John didn't know that Yoko was plotting to have
her
>songs included on ::ahem:: "John's" album leaves no doubt that she schemed
>behind John's back.
what Yoko said to John or when.
>>And I still say that programming the album as a dialogue was the only good
mixed
>>reviews as it was, imagine how bad they'd be if "Forgive me, my little
>>flower princess" had been on the album, and I don't want to think about
what
>>a song that was cut for "You're the One" might sound like.
>
songs
>than it would have been as a solo John album.
Or a solo Yoko album. It's not so much that her songs were better, it's that
the format made them more than their individual merit.
Amaranth56
>songs
>>than it would have been as a solo John album.
>
>Or a solo Yoko album. It's not so much that her songs were better, it's that
>the format made them more than their individual merit.
Gotcha! I'll drink to that.
CaroJ11
Believe it or not, Tom, I'm going to apologize for this one. It WAS a cheap
shot, and you're completely in the right.
My only defense is being momentarily far too gleeful at finding one
contemporary account that DIDN'T say JL was some Casper Milquetoast being led
around on Yoko's leash. That wasn't so either. --CarolJ
Terence Wilson
<derek_...@3com.com> wrote:
> Interesting interview.
Hate to nit-pick, but did you really have to quote the whole message
in your response?
Paul M. Ramey
Tom wrote:
Did she do any work with Ornette Coleman prior to hooking up with John?
Ornette Coleman is a legend (albeit a controversial one) in jazz circles.
Paul
Danny Caccavo
amara...@aol.com (Amaranth56) wrote:
> In VH1's Beatles Wives And Girlfriends, Jack Douglas also said that John was
> furious when he found out that, behind his back, Yoko had arranged to switch
> studios. Jack said this said a mouthful about John and Yoko's marriage and
> relationship. (I don't have his exact words handy.)
That's nice to know. Because all of us at Record Plant felt betrayed....
(I'm back!)
Incidentally, I ran into Jack just a few weeks ago (on my way to a root
canal <g>). Hadn't seen him in years - mentioned the Beatlefan article and
Jack sort of rolled his eyes, saying that maybe he should have kept his
mouth shut....
DC
--
Danny Caccavo
"Where's Elvis?"
Danny Caccavo
> You'd feel betrayed because someone switched studios? I can see why John
> would have been upset, but I can't see how it can be seen as a betrayal.
> ("Betrayal" taken to mean something done by Yoko with the intent to injure
> John.)
Yes. There was a real loyalty bond between Roy Cicala and John Lennon. And
Roy bent over backwards to get Yoko's demos done the summer before, then
was thanked by having the real deal move to Hit Factory, owned by someone
that Roy didn't speak with...then at the start of mixing, they all show
up, booked weeks of time, and split back to Hit Factory after about 4
days.
Tom
>My only defense is being momentarily far too gleeful at finding one
>contemporary account that DIDN'T say JL was some Casper Milquetoast being
led
>around on Yoko's leash. That wasn't so either
I'd have had the same reaction. (The glee part, not the cheap shot at Yoko.)
Tom
>Did she do any work with Ornette Coleman prior to hooking up with John?
>Ornette Coleman is a legend (albeit a controversial one) in jazz circles.
The Albert Hall Concert was February 29, 1968, after she met John, but
before they were a couple.
COONEYBUG
>That's nice to know. Because all of us at Record Plant felt betrayed....
>
>(I'm back!)
Hey Danny! Great to have you back! I've been wondering what happened to you.
Tracy, AKA, Tracer
Amaranth56
>> would have been upset, but I can't see how it can be seen as a betrayal.
>> ("Betrayal" taken to mean something done by Yoko with the intent to injure
>> John.)
>
>Yes. There was a real loyalty bond between Roy Cicala and John Lennon. And
>Roy bent over backwards to get Yoko's demos done the summer before, then
>was thanked by having the real deal move to Hit Factory, owned by someone
>that Roy didn't speak with...then at the start of mixing, they all show
>up, booked weeks of time, and split back to Hit Factory after about 4
>days.
Danny, when you say Yoko had the demos done the summer before, do you mean
1979? Would you know what her original plans were? Was she going to do a solo
album, and then decided to hitch a ride on John's?
JSeraf7064
<g>). Hadn't seen him in years - mentioned the Beatlefan article and Jack sort
of rolled his eyes, saying that maybe he should have kept his mouth shut....
>DC
Next time you see him Danny, tell him that there are people out there who are
glad he did not!
-JS
Tom
>Roy bent over backwards to get Yoko's demos done the summer before, then
>was thanked by having the real deal move to Hit Factory, owned by someone
>that Roy didn't speak with...then at the start of mixing, they all show
>up, booked weeks of time, and split back to Hit Factory after about 4
>days.
I just looked for some information on the move back the Hit Factory.
According to Fred Seaman's book, Jack Douglas had been pushing Yoko to do
the mixing at Hit Factory for a while until she made a decision to do it
abruptly.
Tom
> Hey Danny! Great to have you back! I've been wondering what happened to
you.
>Tracy, AKA, Tracer
Forgot to mention, I was just wondering the same thing myself.
Danny Caccavo
(COONEYBUG) wrote:
> >That's nice to know. Because all of us at Record Plant felt betrayed....
> >
> >(I'm back!)
>
> Hey Danny! Great to have you back! I've been wondering what happened
to you.
> Tracy, AKA, Tracer
Yeah, well, crazy work (audio post for ABC's "The Century", followed by a
vacation....)
Thanks for the welcome back!
Danny Caccavo
I guess I'll have to ask Jack next time I see him.....! But keep in mind
this - they moved to Record Plant to mix, THEN back to Hit Factory...
Danny Caccavo
amara...@aol.com (Amaranth56) wrote:
> >> You'd feel betrayed because someone switched studios? I can see why John
> >> would have been upset, but I can't see how it can be seen as a betrayal.
> >> ("Betrayal" taken to mean something done by Yoko with the intent to injure
> >> John.)
> >
> >Yes. There was a real loyalty bond between Roy Cicala and John Lennon. And
> >Roy bent over backwards to get Yoko's demos done the summer before, then
> >was thanked by having the real deal move to Hit Factory, owned by someone
> >that Roy didn't speak with...then at the start of mixing, they all show
> >up, booked weeks of time, and split back to Hit Factory after about 4
> >days.
>
> Danny, when you say Yoko had the demos done the summer before, do you mean
> 1979? Would you know what her original plans were? Was she going to do
a solo
> album, and then decided to hitch a ride on John's?
Yoko did her demos at Record Plant in the spring of '80.
Tom1W
>>songs
>>>than it would have been as a solo John album.
I am in no way a Yoko fan...neither a fan of her persona or music. However, I
do feel that her songs on Double Fantasy were of respectable quality and to me,
actually some were pleasing, I liked I'm Your Angel, Kiss Me Love, 'Moving On'
etc. mainly because they worked so well juxtaposed to John's songs. However, I
suspecet that her continued contributions on future projects (had John lived)
might not have been as charming to me.
Beatletoon
I personally don't like Yoko's songs on DF! I think John's songs were very
strong. As a matter of fact if Double Fantasy would have been just all the John
songs from DF and Milk and Honey (as on Disc 4 of the old Lennon box), that
would have been one dynamite album!! Just my opinion.
Mitch
Usenet Troll
TIMOTHY GUEGUEN
: Who cares anyway.If she hadn't married John, she probably would never
: have made a record,and her artwork would be as well known as it was
: before she met him.
: Let's face it ,how many of us would know any of the musicians that she
: played with in New York in the early 60's?
tim gueguen 101867
John Calabro
I think it's a real show of someone's character when they refuse to pay the
recording engineer, even though he has a contract, and then forces the issue
to be dragged into court, even though he has a contract!
Her associations with low lives such as Jan Wenner, and Eliot Dipshitz - and
how about that Wenner - what a maroon! He testifies that Douglas was a
nobody in the recording business - when his own magazine has written about
him!
Idiot! Friend of Yoko goes under oath to falsely testify at her BEHEST!
Uh oh - I'm in trouble now - I have to watch out for he former FBI agents
that she has at her disposal!
The woman is Rubbish!
How do you defend her now - let's see it!
JC
--
****************************************
* Visit Radio Free New York *
*home of Pirate Radio legend Hank Hayes*
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JSeraf7064
>How do you defend her now - let's see it!
>JC
Usually, they way people defend their romanticized bronze images here, is to
just disregard or ignore the facts.
Or, discredit the source. Every and anybody.
Or both.
-JS
danielj...@hotmail.com
geoff
geoff
Norbert K
> Here are excerpts from the interview in "Beatlefan" with producer Jack
> Douglas.
> Read it and weep, Yoko defenders and brown noses.
> Lennon's Last Sessions
> Producer Jack Douglas on Recording 'Double Fantasy.'
> When John Lennon and Yoko Ono decided to return to the recording studio in
> 1980, they enlisted an old cohort to produce the sessions. In this revealing
> conversation, he tells Ken Sharp what it was like ....
> Producer-engineer Jack Douglas was known primarily for his work with
> Aerosmith and Cheap Trick before he got a mysterious phone call in 1980 that
> launched him into John Lennon's 'comeback' recording sessions - also his
> final sessions, as it turned out. Contributing Editor Ken Sharp talked with
> Douglas recently about those sessions and Lennon's work with Cheap Trick- one
> track of which is included in the new 'John Lennon Anthology' box set ...
> Q: I want to get into the Lennon "Double Fantasy" sessions, but I didn't
> realize that you'd worked with John prior to that on, was it, the "Imagine"
> album or the song "Imagine"?
> A: The "Imagine" album.
> Q: You engineered some of that?
> A: Yeah. Well, I was second engineer. Roy Cicala was first engineer but
> that was where I met John.
> Q: What was that like working with John back then?
> A: It was amazing and it's so weird because we got to be friends. I was
> working in one studio; I was doing editing while he was tracking in another
> room and doing vocals. I mean, there was no way I was allowed to do vocals
> with him. I was way too young but he came in and I was putting stuff
> together and editing and he said to me "How ya doing?" You know, I'd met him
> earlier in the day but this was the first day and I said "OK, OK.' I wanted
> to be nervous but like I said, he wouldn't let you be. And he lit up a smoke
> and I said to him "I've been to Liverpool" and he looked at me and said "why
> the hell would you have been to Liverpool?" and I said well, you want to
> hear this story?
> Q: Is this the one on the boat? [As a young musician, Douglas and a friend
> stowed away on a boat In order to get to Liverpool, only to be caught and
> written up in British newspapers.]
> A:Yeah. I told him that story. And he, like, cracked up, he was cracking up
> 'cause they'd read the papers about these idiots who were held captive on
> this boat ... after that, he said "What are you doing?" I said, "Well, after
> this?" He goes, "Yeah". I said "Nothing." He goes, "You can come with me.'
> So we went out, you know, and he took me to a party and he was like - see, I
> told him I was born and raised in New York, and he would say to me, "See that
> guy over there?" "Yeah" and if I knew him, he'd say, "Well, who is he? What
> is he?" I'd say, "Well ... that guy's an asshole. Don't even go near him.
> He'll fuck and suck your blood." "Thanks, man." It was like one of those kind
> of things.
> Q: So you continued the friendship through the' 70s?
> A: Yeah, all through it. And, in fact, I was staying with him out in L.A.
> during the crazy period (the so-called 'Lost Weekend") while I was producing
> Alice Cooper.
> Q: Oh, okay "Muscle Love"?
> A: "Muscle Love", yeah. And so I was hanging, I was hanging with him and I
> was doing Yoko records. All those crazy records with Yoko during which John
> was most of the time not allowed in the studio.
> Q: Really.
> A: Yeah. You know, I never let those two…very rarely when I did "Double
> Fantasy" did I ever have them in the room at the same time.
> Q: Why?
> A: It just didn't work. John always wanted to get in to Yoko's stuff and she
> could not bear it. It was already . . . there was already too much
> competition between those two.
> Q: You really think there was, even then?
> A: Yeah. Absolutely. And so it was, it just was when John came in and heard
> what she did after it was done, it was like 'Yeah!" he'd get really excited.
> But if he was there ...
> Q: Would she be excited, conversely, with what he did?
> A: Nah, "That's good, John", you know. But, yeah, he was always good. For
> her, getting her part done was the biggest challenge, you know. And I mean,
> he was just ... I mean, for me, he was the ultimate guy to produce because he
> was such a true professional. He always left his ego outside the door when
> he came into work.
> Q: What was he like as a player?
> A: He was a great rhythm player. He could not play lead to save his life.
> Very small hands, so he had no reach at all. But man, rhythm ...
> Q: How did you get enlisted to produce "Double Fantasy" and wasn't It a secret
> for awhile? If you can talk about how it was kept hush-hush ...
> A: Yeah. How did I get ... I think I ran into John about six months before
> we did that record, maybe almost a year. I was in a health food store over
> on the East Side and in comes John and Sean, who was maybe 3. And the nanny
> and they were just coming from the YMCA where they'd been swimming. And John
> comes up and goes 'Hey, Jack' and I hadn't seen him in years. "Jack, how ya
> doing? What's happening? Oh, you're a big producer now.' He was always
> kidding me, or goofing with me. And I was goofing back with him. And he
> told me, 'Why don't you call me?" Gave me his number, and he said "Come on
> over to the Dakota and hang out' and I just, I took the number and I stuck it
> in my pocket and my wife said to me, 'Wow, that s great, he wants you to come
> over and hang out and stuff, 'And I said 'Yeah, I'll do it, you know, but,
> you know, maybe he was, I mean, he's so involved with his family now and he's
> kinda out of the business. I'll call him sometime.' I never did. I never
> did. Stupid, too, isn't it?
> Q: Damn, If John Lennon gave me his phone number ...
> A: And I never, I never called him. I always felt like 'I don't want to
> really bother him," you know and It turns out he would have liked to have
> gotten that call and it was really stupid of me not to do it but anyway the
> thing was John was - we had a relationship and it was a good, trusting
> relationship and also I had that same relationship with Yoko. She also
> trusted me; she knew that I respected her work. And that I was a trustworthy
> person and John, I once asked him, I said -well into the album, we're sitting
> there and mixing and I said to him "I meant to ask you, why am I doing this
> record with you?' I said, "I just wanted to know..."He said, "Because you
> have good antenna and that works for me because you always can read me, you
> know what this is about' and that s pretty cool because I always felt that
> was one of my strong points but it was very important to him to be able to so
> easily communicate with his producer. And again, like I said, because he was
> so without ago when he was working, he would just take a direction- If I told
> John, 'For this vocal, I need you to stand on your head," he'd say, 'if you
> think that's better, I'll do it.' I mean, he was like that.
>
> Q: Were there any tracks that took a bit more time for him to nail?
> A: I don't remember. Sure ... they all took about an equal amount of time.
> "Beautiful Boy" maybe took a little bit longer because of the chorus. Then
> he would double. He would double track his vocal, like in Beautiful Boy,
> like he would double. First shot. He loved doubling. Yeah, he was the
> perfect doubler. But you know, he doubled because he hated the sound of his
> voice. And I used to tell him, 'John, you don't have to double." I mean,
> when he sent me the demos from Bermuda - you have to understand that these
> are recorded on a boom box, right, a Panasonic, and it was just acoustic
> guitar or in one case, piano on 'Real Love' and him and I think, Fred Seaman,
> banging on pots and pans, and he actually took the time to play those from
> one Panasonic to another one and double his vocal because he couldn't bear
> that - I would hear these things with a single vocal.
> Q: What did you think of Seaman, by the way? He's now like this vilified
> character.
> A: Fred, was like, you know, he just got hammered, man, I mean, there was no
> - John loved him and he was hired to be John's assistant. I mean, wherever
> John went, he brought Fred, you know? And, I mean, Fred, he probably made a
> couple of mistakes. But what he got nailed for was like really off the wall.
> John - and I was there - John used to get things sent to him, not just one
> thing, he'd get a boom box, or a cassette machine, they'd send him two, three
> of them, or they'd just send him one - he just didn't want all the stuff that
> he used to get from companies. Everybody would just want him to say "I use
> this,' you know. And he was getting complimentary stuff all the time and he
> told Fred one day, 'Take that," he says, "Go in the room, Fred, and take
> whatever you want, man, you can have it." And Fred went in and he took stuff
> and he brought it home and it was practical stuff he could use but Yoko had
> somebody always keeping an inventory of everything that was in that room and
> so, I mean, you know, Fred never, like, signed this stuff out. John told
> him, 'Keep it Take it, I don't want that crap' and when Fred finally got
> nailed it was because they said, well, you know, there's this stuff missing
> and you might find it at Fred Seaman's house. And once they went there, they
> matched the serial numbers, it was like a grand larceny rap. And so, that's
> what he got taken down on and it was really like, you know, he was there to
> keep a journal for John ... and whatever John ever asked him to do, Fred was
> like right there. It was a bum rap.
> Q: Tell me about the secretiveness of the sessions.
> A: Well, I'll go back a little bit here ... You probably already know the
> story that I got flown out in a sea plane to Glen Cove to the big house out
> there and a seaplane right onto the beach, hush-hush, and I already knew I
> was being asked to do a record because I had already gotten the phone call
> from Yoko and John. He's going back, he wants to talk to me about making this
> record; 'Don't say anything to anyone; just go to 34th Street, get on a
> seaplane and come out.' And I came out and Yoko said to me, she handed me the
> envelope 'For Jack's Eyes Only. Or was it 'For Jack's Ears Only'? Maybe it
> was both. And she said, "John is going to call you in a few minutes.' She
> said, 'But I just want to tell you, he's going to ask you to do a record." I
> went, 'Cool, that's great.' 'You would produce it with us.' 'Cool.' She said,
> I'm going to have a few songs on it and John doesn't know yet.' "OK.' She
> said, 'You can't tell him.' 'All right; you tell him.' So I had opened the
> tape; there was one cassette from John. And Yoko said, 'Now here's some of
> the songs' so she handed me a thing, like a stack ...
> Q: Of her songs?
> A: Yeah, a stack. I mean, she'd been in the Record Plant with Elephants
> Memory, doing demos ... I wonder where those demos are; some of them were
> very cool. And just a stack of not cassettes, of 5-inch reels, of seven and a
> half, dozens and dozens of songs. And I was like shook up, 'You gonna have a
> couple of tunes on this record?' Handing me stacks and John finally called me
> and he said, you know, "I don't really think I have that much stuff, you
> know.' He eventually sent me another one. He said, "I think if s kind of the
> same old shit' and actually that is on the tape, him saying that. 'Most of
> it, I think we'll give to Ringo" and 'The deal is, I don't know if this is
> really going to come off.' He said, 'I'm going to give it a try but, Jack,
> I've been out of it for a while and I don't even know what's going on. . So
> the deal was put together a band, arrange the songs any way I thought would
> work, I mean, as you know, if you've heard any of those things that are out
> around, you know, that things like ... 'Watching the Wheels" was like
> boom-jang, boom-jang, it was like fast, and almost Dylany and stuff. And he
> wrote me a letter saying, 'Can you make it sound circular?' You know, it was
> all these instructions I got from him and the deal was 'Don't tell anyone
> this is happening.' We put together the band.
> Q: I was curious about why you chose some of those players.
>
> A: I wanted guys that were - well, he knew Hughie [McCracken), anyway. And he
> knew (Andy Newmark] and he'd played with him. So these were guys who were his
> contemporaries. So the important thing for me there was if John made a
> reference to something that was maybe from the early '60s, or even the '50s
> these were guys who would know what he was talking about.
> Q: Quick.
> A: Yeah, quick was very important. I did not want guys who went "duh' and I
> also needed
> guys who could read. You know, the only guy who couldn't read was Ed [Slick].
> And I brought in Ed because he'd done such fine work with David Bowie.
> A: Let me just go back a little bit ... now the band didn't know, had no idea
> who they were - Tony Davilio and I did all the charts for all the songs
> except for 'Starting Over, which did not exist at that time, just didn't
> exist. So I'm singing all of the songs to the band at rehearsal an octave
> lower than he would sing 'am. And they're like 'Wow, great songs, Jack, but
> really, the vocals, I mean, who's singing these things?" Apparently, a couple
> of the guys had guessed but didn't say anything because I told them, you
> know, this is a secret session. They all loved it. The pay was good.
> They're all getting double.
> Q: Of the scale?
> A: Yeah. The same with the studio. I booked the time but they didn't know
> who for.
> Q: The Hit Factory, right?
> A: It was way out west. . . it was out of the way. No one would know. We
> could go in and out of there without ever being seen.
> Q: So what was it like when he first walked In?
> A: Well, there was one more rehearsal, the last, the night before the
> sessions, the last rehearsal was at the Dakota. He sits down at the Fender
> Rhodes and he plays "Starting Over" and I said, "Where'd that come from?" He
> said, "Oh, I dunno, it just kinda came.' He said, "You think it'll make it to
> this record?" I said, "Make it? " I said, "It's gonna be the first single."
> I said, "It's gotta be the first song on the record. You know, come on, it's
> perfect." So we recorded that, we went in and rehearsed that in the studio
> ...
> Q: It's the first track you recorded?
> A: The first track we recorded. And it just went down. Now, all this time,
> we're in there, we were in there a month before there was any acknowledgement
> that these sessions were going on. Here was the deal: If word got out that
> these things were happening, it was over; it was gonna end. So, I mean, I'd
> tell that to the musicians ...
> Q: Why was it so secretive?
> A: Because he wasn't sure if he could do it. You know, he was very, very
> insecure about this stuff. He didn't think he had it any more, you know. He
> thought he was too old, he just couldn't write, he couldn't sing, he couldn't
> play, nothing.
> Q: Do you think once he started playing again with the band ...
> A: It took awhile, it took awhile, there were some moments there where yeah,
> he was like, "I don't know. . ." I used to have breakfast with him every
> morning, he insisted at 9 a.m. I'd come to the Dakota and he was always so
> punctual. 9 a.m., he came out his door and we would walk from the Dakota to
> La Fortuna on 71st Street, a little cafe. We'd sit in the back, in the
> garden, and have chocolate iced cappucinos and talk over what happened last
> night, what was gonna happen, what was going on with Yoko, everything. And
> then, he'd go back and he'd like take a nap and by 11 o'clock I'd working
> with Yoko. But we'd sit there couple of hours and talk through every and
> there were moments at La Fortuna when I had to say, "John, really, I swear,
> it's good know, it's good, I'm telling ya. Even the vocals, everything, you
> sound great.'
>
> Q: What do you remember about the last thing you said to John or what did he
> say to you?
> A: The last thing I said to him and he said to me was "I'll see you in the
> morning at 9 a.m.' The usual. We were going to meet and then we were
> mastering that next morning. We were going to master 'Walking on Thin Ice".
> It was done. We'd finished the mix so, I mean, I said goodbye to him. I saw
> him with this huge, with this big smile on his face and his new leather
> jacket that he'd gotten at The Gap a few weeks earlier which he loved, and
> there's just this big smile on his face, "I'll see you in the morning."
> Q: How long after did you hear [that he'd been shot]?
> A: About 45 minutes later.
> Q: How did you hear about it?
> A: My wife came in and told me. We lived only a few blocks [away].
> Q: You must have thought you were hallucinating ...
> A: I absolutely did that. I thought I was hallucinating for a good six
> months, good six months, it was like, gone - it wasn't a good six months, a
> bad six months.
> Q: Yeah, of course, of course.
> A: I mean, I just flipped out.
> Q: What happened after, there was a lawsuit at some point because you weren't
> paid royalties? Did that get straightened out? You got paid finally.
> A: Yeah, yeah. Boy, what that was. 'Cause I waited like, two years, three
> years. I had a contract. I waited like three years then I finally said to
> Yoko, you know, 'It's like really like a lot of royalties probably accruing
> here. You know, I think it's time like we maybe have ... accountants, have
> somebody, you know, you don't have to deal with it, let's just sort it out,
> let our people sort it out.' And I got like a nasty letter. Almost like
> "Fuck you, you're not getting anything." And it was like "What? I don't get
> this." And, I mean, all kinds of nasty business went down after that, you
> know, being followed and having people offered money to say bad things about
> me. None of which, even if they had succeeded, I mean, Cheap Trick was
> approached, none of those things ...
> Q: To say bad things about you?
> A: Yeah, yeah.
> Q: By her? By someone in ...
> A: Yeah, someone In her camp, ex -FBI guys, Elliot Mintz.
> Q: What do you think of him?
> A: Ugh. I'm not an Elliot fan. You doesn't like me; I don't like him ...
> weird because John, you know, didn't have one good word for Elliot. Sorry,
> Elliot. It's like, if Elliot was coming, John was like 'ugh'. He was more
> Yoko's friend. Yeah. I can remember Elliot coming by r place, you know.
> Someone brought him their not knowing that it was not a good idea but I came
> up and it was a house I had in the Hollywood Hills ... I was doing some
> records out there. And I so treasured these great pictures that I had, of
> John and 1, that I would take them with me when I was traveling. I was going
> to spend six months in a house in Los Angeles so in my little office I had
> pictures of John and 1. Amazing picture of John and I listening to 'Starting
> Over' for the first time, [while finishing up 'Double Fantasy'] somebody from
> the maintenance shop, because we released it as [an advance] single.
> Somebody from maintenance said 'Hey, they're playing 'Starting Over on the
> radio." John and I went running into the maintenance shop and we're both
> standing like dumbfounded, like with these stupid smiles, like kids,
> listening to 'Starting Over" and there's a little radio, me and John leaning
> over it, unopposed just like kids and somebody took a snap of it and so I had
> all these pictures and someone brought Elliot by and Elliot saw these
> pictures around my place ...
> My place was burglarized and you know what they stole? Pictures. That's
> all. All the pictures were gone. Every picture I had. There must have been
> a dozen, really beautiful. That's strange.
> I mean, all my gold and platinum records ended up in a closet at Yoko's. I
> never got them! Well, somebody [took] one out and gave it to me as a birthday
> present. They gave me a platinum single and a platinum record.
> Q: But you worked on the record, you were very loyal.
> A: One day, I asked someone, I'm not gonna mention the name because he's
> still working, a loyal employee, who was also a good friend, and I asked him,
> "What's the story up there?" and he said, 'I don't know, Jack, for some
> reason you are on the enemies list.' And all I could ever think of was that I
> knew too much. And that it would be better - she suspected that everyone who
> knew a lot over the years was gonna write a book, you know, and that I would
> be one of these people who wrote a book and like tried to make money off it.
> Q: And you still haven't.
> A: You know, I made enough just in the royalties, [they] were like 3 million
> bucks. It was like ridiculous and she really lost a good friend because I
> was really a friend to her and I really respected her art. And she always
> knew that, so she really lost a good friend. I pleaded with her over and
> over again every time that we could see each other where I could get a word
> in, 'Yoko, don't go to court. This is so silly, let's not go to court. And
> when we did, it was a big public to-do. And she really was, I mean, it was a
> jury trial, six in the civilize, and the jury was out five minutes, came back
> in and the judge screamed at her, and it was like all this. Like how can you
> do - it was a matter with the contract. Like she tried to say the contract
> was a forgery, all this really weird stuff, brought in people to say that I
> ... people like [Rolling Stone publisher] Jann
> Wenner to say that I was a nobody, that they'd never heard of me ... and then
> my lawyer said "Can we talk about how many times you've mentioned him in your
> magazine?"... He made Jann read those on the stand.
> Q: John was talking about touring?
> A: Oh, yeah, yeah.
> Q: What was his plan?
> A Oh, tremendous production, including and these have to be on some of the
> "Lost Lennon Tapes" or whatever they call them his arrangements of songs that
> he said 'we never got right,' which were "She Loves You" and "I Want to Hold
> Your Hand".
> Q: He was gonna do them?
> A: Yeah, he was gonna do them. He was going, "You know, we never - we always
> wanted to do something like ... but it never got done exactly the way we
> wanted to do it."
> Q: You remember how he wanted to do some of those songs?
> A: He played them on guitar.
> Q: And how were they different?
> A: Maybe the tempo was a little different but it was more like ideas he had
> for what the rest of the band was gonna do. But that was gonna -be in the
> show.
> Q: He was gonna do some Beetle songs?
> A: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
> Q: I heard that McCartney or Harrison called the studio during the sessions
> and Yoko didn't allow the call to be placed through.
> A: No, it was McCartney.
> Q: What happened?
> A: Well, from what I heard and from what I heard from John as well, he was
> looking to get. like, hooked up with Paul before Paul went o t' Japan, to do
> some writing.
> Q: They were going to write together?
> A: Yeah. And ... after the sessions, John never left immediately, he'd
> always sit in the control room and usually took a little grass. He had this
> old opium pipe, it was probably 500 years old, and he'd say to me, "is it all
> over?" 'Cause he would never do anything if we were working. And I'd say,
> "It's over, John." And he'd sit back and put his feet up on the console and
> he'd load up the pipe and sit back and light up and a few of us - I'd ride
> home with him because I only lived two blocks from him. And he'd start
> talking, you know, reminiscing about things, we'd listen to tile radio and if
> a Beatles song came on, he'd talk about it. But the one thing - the
> overwhelming feeling about the things that he was saying was that he loved
> the guys in that band more than anybody else, you know? He was pissed off at
> George because George's book had come out and didn't mention John. You know,
> like, "How can he write a book about his life and not mention me? I'm the
> most important…" Yeah. But he loved the guys in The Beatles. He loved them.
> And he loved that band. And, you know, it was like his band. And I mean,
> the way he went on about it ...
> Q: And he was gonna write with Paul?
> A: He was looking to get hooked up with Paul" yeah. But yeah, that call came
> through and that didn't happen. And Paul went off and got in trouble. And
> when he got in trouble ...
> Q: He didn't get the message from anyone?
> A: No.
> Q: Who kept him away?
> A: I think Yoko probably thought ... I can't speak for Yoko. Maybe she
> thought it'd be a distraction. I don't think it would have been.
>
> Q: Who knows what would have happened. But when Paul got busted for pot in
> Japan, we were in the studio, when that call came in that he was in trouble,
> man, you oughta see John flippin' out.
> **
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
I had not seen this before. It is extremely interesting. The parts about Yoko paying people to speak ill of Douglas (when all he expected was Yoko to fulfill her part of their contract) and the break-in of Douglas' home are troubling.
Emma Smulders
Norbert K
I've read that Yoko had assured Sam that she would cover a loan he owed to his bank. On the day the payment was due, Yoko called Sam and told him to move out of an NYC apartment of which he was very proud. Sam refused, and Yoko told him: "You will be destroyed." Yoko didn't keep her promise about the loan and that was the end of this seemingly significant relationship.
It seems to me that Yoko had a psychopathic side.
Emma Smulders
Norbert K
I accept your speculation. I do remember reading of Yoko's attempts to break Spinozza. Rather than bowing to Yoko, he asked her how she could present herself and John as the "Peace & Love Couple" when Yoko privately had such contempt for John. He challenged Yoko to pay for an album and tour using her own money rather than John's.
Emma Smulders
Norbert K
And the drugs -- particularly the LSD; according to Pete Shotton, Lennon's life had become a "continuous LSD trip" in the period preceding Yoko -- no doubt played a huge role in the destruction of Lennon's powers of discernment. John had begun to surround himself with nuts, or "human oddities," in Shotton's words. This is why Cynthia didn't recognize the threat Yoko posed to her marriage. She assumed Yoko was just another freak that Lennon had allowed into his orbit.
Emma Smulders
Someone who knew Mimi wrote a book about her saying she was lovely, yet a lot of the negative traits which often describe her in Beatles/Lennon biographies do turn up there. IMO the saddest thing Mimi ever did was getting rid of Sally (dog in the picture of young John) when John was out of the house. That was just plain cruel. John apparently never forgave her for that.
Oh, and have you read this? She goes in all about John's "shameful" behaviour, quite obsessively so.
www.meetthebeatlesforreal.com/2016/07/a-visit-with-aunt-mimi.html
Norbert K
I remember the book you mention. The author seemed to think she had presented a very poisitive portrait of Mimi -- when in fact she had done (for my money) the opposite.
And that article you posted the link to was new to me. Mimi's observation that John's radical phase was all an act and a product of Yoko rings true. The saddest thing is Mimi's statement that she had spoken to McCartney, and that he was sure that the rift between him and Lennon would be short-lived.
I believe Paul believed this when he said it. What he did not know is that Yoko (and not John) was the source of this estrangement.
Emma Smulders
I haven't read the book, but I saw people say that a lot of John's more negative traits has been clearly taught by Mimi. ( Not to say he didn't learn any positive, he certainly learned manners from her)
I don't think John was living a complete lie in 1969-1972 or anything, I do think he was interested in the cause ( they didn't like the war but weren't allowed to comment on it by Brian, and "All You Need Is Love" was certainly Pre-Yoko), but 50,000,000 Beatles fans can't be wrong. If a lot of people (including Mimi, who knew John very well) saw John changing pretty soon after he hooked up with Yoko, then there is something going on. And it's not a coincidence that John's hostile attitude towards Paul was at it's peak during this period, while during Lost Weekend he was way gentler about Paul ( and The Beatles in general).
Norbert K
Would John have done Sometime In New York City if he hadn't been with Yoko? I doubt it very much.
I've read a lot of the "Lost Weekend" interviews and articles. John was indeed warming up to McCartney and the Beatles during this period. And he was finally back on track musically with Walls and Bridges. Then John's *real* Lost Weekend came: his return to Ono, followed by 5 years of seclusion.
Emma Smulders
John was planning to continue his lost weekend with the Between The Lines album, which propably would've come out in 1975. I've read that Nobody Told Me actually should've been on that album, together with a couple of other songs he wrote around that time. I would've loved if John continued to be productive, but ah well...
Norbert K
You are amazingly well-informed on this stuff for a 20-year old. Yes, John was planning on following Walls and Bridges with an album called Between the Lines. I found a quote from him in which he enthused that he had 6 songs written for this project. Who knows how far along he was when Yoko became pregnant and John's professional life ended.
Emma Smulders
Norbert K
He privately admitted (was it to John Green?) that he was concerned the public would not buy his "Baking bread and taking care of the baby" story because Paul & Linda had had a lot of children and this never slowed down (let alone stopped) Paul's work.
I wonder how much time passed after John and Yoko's "reunion" before they were both back on heroin. Yoko is said to have taken heroin during Sean's pregnancy (the seizures John said she was undergoing during the birth may have been those of withdrawal), and if you read sources such as Andy Warhol's diary, he made note of John's increasing gauntness following the reunion.
It's almost as if John and Yoko realized, upon getting clean with the help of Dr. Hong in San Mateo, that they couldn't stand each other -- and so they parted ways in 1973. They seem to have decided that a return to each other entailed a return to smack.
Emma Smulders
I do have to mention that Paul's children did kinda suffer under Paul's work, they had a less stable (but very happy nonetheless) upbringing in that regard.
I don't know about John being on heroin, in May's book she mentions how John's moods disturb her and sometimes straight up scare the hell out of her ( his glassy eyes). But I interpreted this as side effects of that weird smoking cure and falling back into depression ( my hypothesis is that John was a manic-depressive, but obviously I cant diagnose that). I did read Warhol's comments about John noting how thin John got, but a lot of people have commented on his gaunt appearance, George as well IIRC.
Oh, and John was already wanting to divorce Yoko as early as 1972, he didn't want to be a duo with her anymore, and IMO Yoko never could stand John, lol.
Norbert K
You're thinking of the incident at Jerry Rubin's apartment in 1972, right? Yeah, Lennon is said to have announced to the group that he didn't want to be "John and Yoko" anymore. And supposedly he told Jerry Rubin's roommate that he and Yoko were getting a divorce.
John Green's book is really good, although I understand that Green himself was very unhappy with the way many sections of his story did not appear in the published work. He also did not choose (or like) the title Dakota Days. I wish that I could read his complete effort.
Emma Smulders
I also know that May's post ( the one which got such backlash that she left) indicated this:
>I can only speak for myself here. " The Lost Weekend" was not so lost and
>you don't know the details. If you did, then do you consider going back
>to the Dakota and getting hooked on heroin again a better way of life?
>John may have drank a bit in a couple of instances when we were out with
>friends but then the press used the same 2 stories over and over until
>they ran it down our throats. By that time John was nothing but a drunk
>as the press would have it. It was so far from the truth.
So she either came to the conclusion of heroin from herself or because of Goldman's research ( I know she read her parts of his book)
Yes I was talking about the Jerry Rubin incident, John was having a mental breakdown then, and said things similar to when he flipped out at Yoko in a restaurant in December 1975, saying he wants to be with May.
Norbert K
The woman in Jerry Rubin's apartment that night in 1972 is said to have been a redhead named Carol Realini. She did mention to at least one writer that John told her that he and Yoko were getting a divorce.
Emma Smulders
May on John's drug use:
A packet of heroin had been delivered to John, and he began to weave as he walked. I hated seeing him behave so self-destructively. I did not take drugs. I had been brought up to believe in being in control and I hated seeing John out of control. I wanted to rush over to him and say, "Cut it out!" but I didn't. No one did. It began to amaze me more and more that no one dared to critize John Lennon even for his own good. ( during the making of Fly, December 1970)
After John finished Imagine, he and Yoko remained in New York City. They would get up anywhere between 10:00 AM and 4:00 PM. When they awoke, they called for their "medicine", little white pills they washed with orange juice. When I asked him, John told me he was taking methadone. ( Mid 1971 I guess?)
She doesn't really comment on his drug use during the lost weekend, alcohol is the main concern there.
Carol Realini said that John told her he was a heroin junkie, so that was late 1972.
Norbert K
There's a commentator who comes on named Dan Richter. He's there to sing Yoko's praises. Another of her male "assistants."
However, I read an article by Richter once (sorry, I don't have a link), in which Richter admitted that John and Yoko visited him, and next thing he knew, he had become their heroin procurer. They also had him work on their home movies and provided him with living space, ans I don't doubt they compensated him well for his assistance.
They were on smack before that meeting with Richter, so I'm certainly not blaming him for that. I have read, however, that it was Richter who eventually got them to switch to methadone. A lot of junkies who move to methadone are on that drug for life.
John and Yoko eventually kicked methadone through the services of the Chinese Dr. Hong in San Mateo.
There's a most interesting article about Dr. Hong and his family and their time with the Lennons in the NYT: "Family Opened Up the Door to John and Yoko."
Emma Smulders
I know about both Dan and Dr. Hong. I didn't know Dan introduced them to mehtadone, only that they were provided heroin by him.
https://twitter.com/summer_turtle_/status/1345113777755320322
Norbert K
Phil Spector was always creepy. When I learned that he was the suspect in a woman's murder, my immediate reaction was: "I'm not surprised." May Pang appears in the Power, :Privilege, and Justice episode on Spector, saying that he was a "ticking time-bomb."
The mystery for me is how Spector enticed Lana Clarkson to his mansion when she had no idea who he was upon meeting him and in fact even addressed him as "Miss."
Emma Smulders
Norbert K
Remember May's account of how Spector had agreed to produce Lennon's oldies album on the condition that he (Spector) would have total control over it? And that Lennon acquiesced to this demand? I suspect that Lennon was amenable to that because he was accustomed (through Yoko) to being dominated by a narcissistic nut.
Dennis Rowan
Rumor had it that he and John got into a vocal screeching contest. It must have happend righ at the outset for the results of the album and the way Nilsson sounded on " A Toot and a Snore" means that his voice was cooked early in the game!
Emma Smulders
"And now I have Yoko there, and Phil there, alternatively and together, who sort of love me so that I can perform better, and I relaxed."
Seems that John enjoyed working with Phil the same as with Yoko and therefore was cool with him taking total total control as producer. During the recording of Imagine Yoko would also attempt to control everything (which would piss off poor George lol) so you might be correct. Take Tony Bramwell's comments comparing the two:
"Each of them was implacable and paranoid. But if someone else from the outside was going to produce them, she didn’t see why it couldn’t be her. When Yoko and Phil confronted each other, sparks would fly and I fully expected Phil to grab a gun or karate chop Yoko into slices."
"Marty told me that Phil and Yoko almost shorted out when they confronted each other again, because theywere both control freaks, used to having their own way at whatever the cost. What’s more, they both knew it."
Norbert K
Phil Spector was supposed to produce Yoko's first solo record (the one with John's bloody glasses on the cover), but he withdrew from the project with no public explanation that I was aware of. I assumed that Yoko was too crazy even for Spector.
Norbert K
Emma Smulders
About the documentary btw: With a couple months in hindsight, in general felt it was more about Yoko than John. Like how she was so great that she inspired/co-wrote the song of the century ( who decides that anyway?), they creepily diminish John, by stating strange nonsense like "he had an emptiness" , "these are her words, not his", "she gave him everything he needed", etc. Like they want to convince recent generations of beatle-fans who are less aware of her more unsavory habits that she was a misunderstood artist who has been diminished by racism and sexism ( which my generation both hate, so it touches the right snares) and maybe more talented and original than John ( I guess they forgot to mention he was responsible for a lot of her musical body of work). Yoko gets a tragic backstory (provided by everyone's favourite Elliot Mintz) and she comes over as this nice old lady. I also find "the reason that John and I got together our goal was to write Imagine" to be one of the most disturbing things Yoko said, period. Also if Fred is to believed, John ended up kind of hating that song, so I doubt he'd feel the same. :P
Norbert K
It didn't take me months to feel that way about "Above Us Only Sky." The reaction you describe was my gut-reaction.
Which of Yoko's albums came out closest in time to Lennon's Imagine? Was it Fly? Anyone who is gullible enough to consider that Yoko wrote the sone "Imagine" should listen to Fly and confront the absurdity of the lie that "Imagine" is written or co-written by Ono.
Yes, Yoko has her bizarre "Grapefruit" book of instrutional poems. Some of them are on the disturbing side, such as the one about sending the remains of "all the men you've slept with" out to see. If the rumors are true, this would require a freighter in Yoko's case.
It is a spectacular stretch to suppose that because Yoko wrote something about imagining "the clouds dripping" that John's asking people to imagine no countries or possessesions (etc.) was co-written by Yoko. If it wasn't Yoko making these claims, no one would accept them.
Yoko's taking credit for John's work is part of a larger pattern on her part. In various interviews, Yoko claims to have been doing punk rock or new wave long before these musical styles became famous. Listen to her records, and you'll see the complete ridiculousness of her claims. It's another lie, and another attempt at self-aggrandizement.
Emma Smulders
It was Fly yes, actually John & Co were responsible for a lot of the music, Mrs Lennon is clearly John's work, as is Don't Worry Kyoko( an older track) and Midsummer New York, also his guitar on some tracks like Mind Train, Mind Holes, Hirake(originally called open your box), etc. Are the best parts of those tracks anyway...
I haven't read Grapefruit but I know about that part, and yeah John got a lot of his ideas about that song from a book Dick Gregory gave him, and also it's similair to Working Class Hero in theme, I believe her contributions to the lyrics are pretty minimal, let alone the melody and production....
I also have my doubts in John's statements that he omitted to credit her. I'm sorry, but ever since they got together they have been pretty shameless in promoting Yoko as this underrated misunderstood genius. He calls Don't Worry Kyoko the best rock n roll record ever lol( the best part is the riff played by him and Eric, but nevermind). He also credited her for Oh My Love in 1971 already and promoted that Grapefruit book from the start, re-issueing it in 1970 with an introduction, and quoting it on the back of the Imagine album. He also wasn't allowed to do anything on his own ( concert for bangladesh etc.), he wasn't even allowed to have his own friends have over for christ sake ( Some people like Pete Shotton and Bill Harry have been vocal about this). What I think happened is that in 1980 John was so egoless and bent on promoting Yoko that he would over-inflate her performance.
I remember that comment made by Howard Smith about J&Y meeting Zappa going like "Lennon was very deferential to Frank.John acted like, 'I may be popular, but *this* is the real thing. Yoko acted like Frank Zappa had stolen everything he had ever done or even thought from her. 'Yes, yes, yes,' she would say, 'I did that in 1962.'"
So she always over-inflates herself. And the punk parts on POB are made by John, Klaus and Ringo IMO.
Emma Smulders
"Men, Men, Men""
J.o.h.n.n.y.,
God's little gift, cream and pie.
Men, men, men, umm, uum,
Men, men, men, umm, uum,
Men, men, milk and honey,
God's little gift for woman.
I want you clever but not too clever,
I want you bad but not too bad.
I want you strong but not too strong,
I want you to try your rightful position.
Oh, too, too much, I mean, it's so good.
Men, men, snails and puppies,
Your muscles are not for fighting in war.
Your lips are not for voicing opinions,
Your eyes are there for us to look into.
I want you to take your rightful position.
Oh, too, too much, I mean, it's so good.
Men, men, grapes and nuts,
Your pants are never tight enough,
Your boots are never long enough.
Your skin is never young enough,
I want you to hold your rightful position.
Pardon me, honeycum, your hair piece's slipping.
Men, men, apples and figs,
I like you to be faithful but not very fussy,
I like you to be behind me but not just beside me.
I like you to shut up but know when to say yes,
I want you to learn your frightful position.
Pardon me, starstud, your cod piece's showing.
Now you know what you have to do-oh,
Now you know what's expected of you-hoo-hoo-hoo.
So come, come, come, come,
Come up and hum hum,
Come up and hum hum,
Come up and see me sometime,
Come up and see me sometime.
"Ladies and gents, I'd like to introduce you to my lower half,
Without whom I won't be breathing so heavily.
Honey juice, you can come out of the box now"
"Yes, dear."
geoff
> On Monday, March 22, 2021 at 4:38:51 PM UTC-4, Emma Smulders wrote:
>> Op maandag 22 maart 2021 om 12:32:57 UTC+1 schreef Norbert K:
>>> On Sunday, March 21, 2021 at 5:44:01 PM UTC-4, Emma Smulders wrote:
>>>> Op zondag 21 maart 2021 om 20:03:35 UTC+1 schreef Norbert K:
>>>>> On Sunday, March 21, 2021 at 12:39:24 PM UTC-4, Emma Smulders wrote:
>>>>>> Op zondag 21 maart 2021 om 11:56:42 UTC+1 schreef Norbert K:
>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 20, 2021 at 6:00:11 PM UTC-4, Emma Smulders wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op zaterdag 20 maart 2021 om 21:39:00 UTC+1 schreef Norbert K:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, March 20, 2021 at 10:51:23 AM UTC-4, Emma Smulders wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Op zaterdag 20 maart 2021 om 14:04:09 UTC+1 schreef Norbert K:
geoff
Norbert K
> I haven't read Grapefruit but I know about that part, and yeah John got a lot of his ideas about that song from a book Dick Gregory gave him, and also it's similair to Working Class Hero in theme, I believe her contributions to the lyrics are pretty minimal, let alone the melody and production....
>
> I also have my doubts in John's statements that he omitted to credit her. I'm sorry, but ever since they got together they have been pretty shameless in promoting Yoko as this underrated misunderstood genius. He calls Don't Worry Kyoko the best rock n roll record ever lol( the best part is the riff played by him and Eric, but nevermind). He also credited her for Oh My Love in 1971 already and promoted that Grapefruit book from the start, re-issueing it in 1970 with an introduction, and quoting it on the back of the Imagine album. He also wasn't allowed to do anything on his own ( concert for bangladesh etc.), he wasn't even allowed to have his own friends have over for christ sake ( Some people like Pete Shotton and Bill Harry have been vocal about this). What I think happened is that in 1980 John was so egoless and bent on promoting Yoko that he would over-inflate her performance.
>
> I remember that comment made by Howard Smith about J&Y meeting Zappa going like "Lennon was very deferential to Frank.John acted like, 'I may be popular, but *this* is the real thing. Yoko acted like Frank Zappa had stolen everything he had ever done or even thought from her. 'Yes, yes, yes,' she would say, 'I did that in 1962.'"
>
> So she always over-inflates herself. And the punk parts on POB are made by John, Klaus and Ringo IMO.
Then there's another that says something to effect of: "Put a bandage on yourself. When someone asks you what it's for, make up something. If no one notices the bandage, draw their attention to it."
That reminds me of a statement Yoko made once that she would go around in crutches that she did not need but which enabled her to get attention. This need to be the center of attention is classic narcisissism.
Back to the subject of who actually wrote what, you probably know that the music to Yoko's "Approximately Infinite Universe" was actually written by Elephant's Memory, while the music on "Feeling the Space" was written by David Spinozza.
Yes, I remember that quotation from Howard Smith. I posted a link in here recently to Zappa's commentary on what happened between him, John, and Yoko.
I find it extremely unlikely that it was John's idea to rename Zappa's song "King Kong" (i.e., as "Jamrag") and to take writing credit for that. He had too much respect for Zappa. It was all too typical of Yoko to do something like that, however.
Emma Smulders
>
> Then there's another that says something to effect of: "Put a bandage on yourself. When someone asks you what it's for, make up something. If no one notices the bandage, draw their attention to it."
>
> That reminds me of a statement Yoko made once that she would go around in crutches that she did not need but which enabled her to get attention. This need to be the center of attention is classic narcisissism.
>
> Back to the subject of who actually wrote what, you probably know that the music to Yoko's "Approximately Infinite Universe" was actually written by Elephant's Memory, while the music on "Feeling the Space" was written by David Spinozza.
>
> Yes, I remember that quotation from Howard Smith. I posted a link in here recently to Zappa's commentary on what happened between him, John, and Yoko.
>
> I find it extremely unlikely that it was John's idea to rename Zappa's song "King Kong" (i.e., as "Jamrag") and to take writing credit for that. He had too much respect for Zappa. It was all too typical of Yoko to do something like that, however.
Yeah Yoko seems to take credit for things though, including production. I also noticed that she never played piano, I only found two songs she played piano on ( one on AIU, and Let Me Count The Ways on M&H) and her keyboards during One To One apparently aren't plugged in. Think she's less skilled on it as claimed.
Norbert K
I think Yoko's various claims of being versed in classical technique are false. Look at her on the unplugged-in piano on One to One. What she's doing does not merely show an absence of skill; it looks ridiculous.
Or look at the various performances on which Yoko accompanies John by playing a drum. She has no sense of rhythm or time.
I mean, every aspiring musician has to start somewhere. Yoko, however, would never admit to being in need of instruction. John Green says that when she debuted a song for him, he responded with "You might try a different arrangement." She told him that her songs *can't* be changed; that they come "directly from the sky," and that "I sh*t on you" for his refusal to acknowledge her greatness.
Imagine if, rather than posing as an artist or songwriter, Yoko had started a cult? She may have been able to pull that off. She had a predator's knack for finding vulnerable persons. She knew how to dominate people and manipulate them into servants. She was obsessed with self-promotion and had no qualms in destroying families, friendships, and derailing the existences of others. She had some Mansonesque, Jim Jonesian characteristics.
Emma Smulders
I saw that as well, honestly I think she's just does not have the talent to be a musician, even in her work of field. Her screaming is plainly not pleasant to hear, and her skills as a musician are also below average. She never would've gotten anywhere if it weren't for her famous and wealthy husband. I mean Tony Cox also fixed gigs for her back in the 60's.
Her biggest skill seem to be conning people, however most people have seen through her and don't buy the shit she's selling, but some do. Unfortunately for everyone involved John ended up being pretty dependent on her, being convinced she has magic and a good business sense lol.
Norbert K
> Yeah, I'm pretty unqualified to judge this, but she got some real narcisstic/anti-social/sociopathic traits going on there.
>
> I saw that as well, honestly I think she's just does not have the talent to be a musician, even in her work of field. Her screaming is plainly not pleasant to hear, and her skills as a musician are also below average. She never would've gotten anywhere if it weren't for her famous and wealthy husband. I mean Tony Cox also fixed gigs for her back in the 60's.
>
> Her biggest skill seem to be conning people, however most people have seen through her and don't buy the shit she's selling, but some do. Unfortunately for everyone involved John ended up being pretty dependent on her, being convinced she has magic and a good business sense lol.
I had read about Cox being deeply involved in this cult -- and assumed Cox had to be a nut. However, if you watch Cox's commentary in that documentary, you'll learn that it was Cox who arranged for Lennon to appear at the gallery where Yoko was showing her "work." Cox and Ono had decided that the sponsorship of a Beatle would be big for Ono.
At some point after that initial meeting with Lennon, Ono asked Cox to go away for a while so that she had some privacy in which to "do this."
When Cox returned, he learned that Yoko had moved in with Lennon. He was devastated, and this is what led him to turn to a cult for meaning.
Yoko had no qualms about destroying her own family in pursuit of Lennon. She and Cox had also had a daughter. Cox, by the way, is the guy who traveled to Japan and talked Japanese doctors into releasing Ono from the mental ward in which her family had placed her.
Emma Smulders
>
> I had read about Cox being deeply involved in this cult -- and assumed Cox had to be a nut. However, if you watch Cox's commentary in that documentary, you'll learn that it was Cox who arranged for Lennon to appear at the gallery where Yoko was showing her "work." Cox and Ono had decided that the sponsorship of a Beatle would be big for Ono.
>
> At some point after that initial meeting with Lennon, Ono asked Cox to go away for a while so that she had some privacy in which to "do this."
>
> When Cox returned, he learned that Yoko had moved in with Lennon. He was devastated, and this is what led him to turn to a cult for meaning.
>
> Yoko had no qualms about destroying her own family in pursuit of Lennon. She and Cox had also had a daughter. Cox, by the way, is the guy who traveled to Japan and talked Japanese doctors into releasing Ono from the mental ward in which her family had placed her.
I've also read John gave Cox a lot of money to pay him off, IIRC around the same as Cyn got? Then they got into this big custody thing about Kyoko. There was also this thing where they wanted Cox to be their manager because they were unhappy with Klein, lol.
Yoko sure has no qualms about burning bridges indeed, in fact, that whole thing where she wants to isolate John from all his old friends and family actually strikes me as part of that behaviour, she wants nothing to do with those people, even if she wants to ride on the coattails of the beatles' succes. Of course she also wanted to isolate him so she could control him further.
Norbert K
Yoko's isolation of John is another classic cultist's tactic, although she may not have known that. Yes, it kept him under her control. It also kept him from being active in music -- and from reminding Yoko that he succeeded in a field where so abysmally failed.
Emma Smulders
I know that in Peter Brown's book there is a part about Tony being horrified John was bathing with Kyoko and Tony was so furious he wouldn't allow them to go near his daughter. I always found that strange. You'd think he'd be more terrified of their drug use.
Norbert K
I think Yoko's -- and of course, she enlisted John -- pursuit of Kyoko was about Tony Cox' daring to defy her. She didn't want Kyoko out of care for Kyoko. She wanted Kyoko because Cox had defied her -- and she (Yoko) had to win.
When I read Sean Lennon's interviews, I don't see a son of Yoko so much as a promoter. You could change the photographs and title to "Elliot Mintz discusses Yoko" and you nobody would suspect a thing. Sean has -- like so many of the men in Yoko's life before him -- been transformed into an assistant.
Emma Smulders
>
> I think Yoko's -- and of course, she enlisted John -- pursuit of Kyoko was about Tony Cox' daring to defy her. She didn't want Kyoko out of care for Kyoko. She wanted Kyoko because Cox had defied her -- and she (Yoko) had to win.
>
> When I read Sean Lennon's interviews, I don't see a son of Yoko so much as a promoter. You could change the photographs and title to "Elliot Mintz discusses Yoko" and you nobody would suspect a thing. Sean has -- like so many of the men in Yoko's life before him -- been transformed into an assistant.
If i ever die, please go to my daughter
And tell her that she used to haunt me in my dreams.
(That's saying a lot for a neurotic like me.)
Sounds like there are some genuine feelings there, in the sense that Yoko always wants things, so maybe in this case she wanted her lost daughter she can't have. There is also this story that she bought all these clothes for Kyoko while Kyoko was in hiding, reminds me of her keeping all of John's clothes and letting Sam Havadtoy wear them, there is something similar about those two.
I wonder where Yoko's genuine feelings end and where her narcissism begins, I mean she's obviously not *unfeeling*, but I'd say very very selfish.
Francie said once here that John seemed more adoring towards Kyoko than Yoko herself, but that might also be their different characters. ( John is clearly the warmer person here, and has less need for responisbility with Kyoko than with his own children, which he of course had a struggle with.)
Norbert K
And with Sean, there's Yoko's famous admission that she bore Sean for nine months; once he was born, he was John's responsibility. I think of the endless parade of nannies, also Helen Seaman, for Sean. I think of Yoko's sending Sean to Hale House, and the Swiss boarding school. I remember an interview in which Yoko asked how Sean was doing (in the aftermath of Lennon's murder), and she replied with "Well, I think children are so amazing." The question wasn't about children in general; it was about her own son! Then there were Sean's appearances on her solo albums of the 80s. It seems like Yoko persistently used him as a prop.
The Havadtoy-in-John's-clothes was creepy.
Emma Smulders
I think now with Sean an adult, they have a more closer relationship.
Norbert K
Would Yoko have "loved" Sean had he been more of an individual? I'm not so sure.
Emma Smulders
This is what Mike Tree said(worked for them 76-80):
I hate to be a nay sayer, but I believe that when Sean talks about his father, he's repeating what his mother told him. Having known her, it sounds like the way she forms ideas right down to the toilet details.
Oh, and Sean calling John a macho asshole totally comes from Yoko. And Sean totally must have forgotten about Yoko's affairs ( He knew about Sam Havadtoy, but he ignores Sam Green and David Spinozza)
Norbert K
Sean was five years old when Yoko ended her relationship with Sam Green. I wonder if he has any memories of the well-traveled art dealer. Surely, however, he has read his father's last will and noticed that it named Sam Green to be his guardian in the event that John died? He has to have wondered about that.
Emma Smulders
>
> Sean was five years old when Yoko ended her relationship with Sam Green. I wonder if he has any memories of the well-traveled art dealer. Surely, however, he has read his father's last will and noticed that it named Sam Green to be his guardian in the event that John died? He has to have wondered about that.
nick hanna
Norbert K
The pre-LSD John Lennon would not have touched either con artist with a ten-foot pole.
Are you still around, Emma? I appreciated your knowledge.
Norbert K
> Op maandag 15 maart 2021 om 14:01:40 UTC+1 schreef Norbert K:
> > On Monday, March 15, 2021 at 8:34:28 AM UTC-4, Emma Smulders wrote:
> > > Op maandag 15 maart 2021 om 11:41:51 UTC+1 schreef Norbert K:
> > > > On Sunday, March 14, 2021 at 1:17:57 PM UTC-4, Emma Smulders wrote:
> > > > > Op zondag 14 maart 2021 om 15:22:54 UTC+1 schreef Norbert K:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I remember the book you mention. The author seemed to think she had presented a very poisitive portrait of Mimi -- when in fact she had done (for my money) the opposite.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And that article you posted the link to was new to me. Mimi's observation that John's radical phase was all an act and a product of Yoko rings true. The saddest thing is Mimi's statement that she had spoken to McCartney, and that he was sure that the rift between him and Lennon would be short-lived.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I believe Paul believed this when he said it. What he did not know is that Yoko (and not John) was the source of this estrangement.
> > > > > For the record, I think Magic Alex was playing both John and Cynthia during the events of 1968. Cynthia seems to realise what was going on with him, however.
> > > > >
> > > > > I haven't read the book, but I saw people say that a lot of John's more negative traits has been clearly taught by Mimi. ( Not to say he didn't learn any positive, he certainly learned manners from her)
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think John was living a complete lie in 1969-1972 or anything, I do think he was interested in the cause ( they didn't like the war but weren't allowed to comment on it by Brian, and "All You Need Is Love" was certainly Pre-Yoko), but 50,000,000 Beatles fans can't be wrong. If a lot of people (including Mimi, who knew John very well) saw John changing pretty soon after he hooked up with Yoko, then there is something going on. And it's not a coincidence that John's hostile attitude towards Paul was at it's peak during this period, while during Lost Weekend he was way gentler about Paul ( and The Beatles in general).
> > > > I know John was genuinely opposed to the Vietnam war -- he had this stance well before Yoko came along. I was referring (with "radical phase") more to his David Peel/John Sinclair/Abbie Hoffman/Elephant's Memory stuff. I suspect that this was a product of Yoko's influence. She persuaded John that his music was the "people's music," the music of the street, etc. John assumed he should trust her on that, when in fact her assessment of his music was born of resentment of its success. Yoko talked as if the reason her stuff was not popular was that it was of the upper class; and that John's stuff was popular was that it was simple and accessible. Her work was "too complex" for the common man. Or so she purported to believe.
> > > >
> > > > Would John have done Sometime In New York City if he hadn't been with Yoko? I doubt it very much.
> > > >
> > > > I've read a lot of the "Lost Weekend" interviews and articles. John was indeed warming up to McCartney and the Beatles during this period. And he was finally back on track musically with Walls and Bridges. Then John's *real* Lost Weekend came: his return to Ono, followed by 5 years of seclusion.
> > > Oh you have read May's book as well, right? In there it's all over the place that Yoko considers herself superior to "simple" Beatles music and considers herself the true songwriter of the family. Also she suggested to John that he really belonged on the streets, kicking of the STINYC period. And no, I don't think he would've gone this far if she wasn't there. And look what happened : It was a critical and commercial flop, and he didn't record for more than a year. ( I like STINYC quite fine myself, but I can see why it's the worst of his solo-career, and as a 20 year old I obviously had to google about what all these causes actually meant at the time, so it hasn't aged well in that regard either)
> > >
> > > John was planning to continue his lost weekend with the Between The Lines album, which propably would've come out in 1975. I've read that Nobody Told Me actually should've been on that album, together with a couple of other songs he wrote around that time. I would've loved if John continued to be productive, but ah well...
> >
> > You are amazingly well-informed on this stuff for a 20-year old. Yes, John was planning on following Walls and Bridges with an album called Between the Lines. I found a quote from him in which he enthused that he had 6 songs written for this project. Who knows how far along he was when Yoko became pregnant and John's professional life ended.
> May said in an interview that John basically quit the moment he went back to Yoko, even before the pregnancy. Although he was still finishing up the Rock n Roll album and still had a social life, lol. Not long after Sean's birth that's when the real Howard Hughes type of behaviour started kicking in. John once said that when he didn't make music he fell into depression, which we can see in his well-documented "high and low" behaviour. So here we have John not recording music for more than 5 years and living a quite reclusive life. The happy househusband stereotype falls flat on it's face if you put that together, especially if May and Fred's account on this time period is to be believed.
May picked up the phone during one of Yoko's calls at the time when Walls & Bridges was topping the charts. "Isn't it wonderful?" May asked. "It's just hype," Yoko hissed.
