Was John Lennon Catholic?
Vespertyn
Recently someone from Britain told me that John Lennon was raised a
Catholic. I know Paul's mother was Catholic, but hoped someone might be
able to verify whether or not John was a Catholic. The reason this
discussion came about was the song *Let It Be* and the references in the
song such as *When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to
me.* As a Catholic I feel that lyric has a strong Catholic sentiment to it.
Can anyone help?
Aaron Bucky
Well, Paul wrote "Let It Be". I'm not sure if he was raised a Catholic,
but I can think of at least one other apparent Catholic reference in one
of his songs: "Lady Madonna". As for John, there is at least the "Mother
Superior" line in "Happiness is a Warm Gun".
Robbie T.
Aaron Bucky wrote:
>
> In article <538q13$1...@newsops.execpc.com>, ter...@execpc.com (Vespertyn) wrote:
>
> > Recently someone from Britain told me that John Lennon was raised a
> > Catholic. I know Paul's mother was Catholic, but hoped someone might be
> > able to verify whether or not John was a Catholic. The reason this
> > discussion came about was the song *Let It Be* and the references in the
> > song such as *When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to
> > me.* As a Catholic I feel that lyric has a strong Catholic sentiment to it.
> > Can anyone help?
not for the average RMB'er, Paul is quoted as saying the Mother Mary
reference is to his own mother, Mary McCartney.
Bob Jameson
Vespertyn <ter...@execpc.com> wrote in article
<538q13$1...@newsops.execpc.com>...
> Recently someone from Britain told me that John Lennon was raised a
> Catholic. I know Paul's mother was Catholic, but hoped someone might be
> able to verify whether or not John was a Catholic. The reason this
> discussion came about was the song *Let It Be* and the references in the
> song such as *When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes
to
> me.* As a Catholic I feel that lyric has a strong Catholic sentiment to
it.
> Can anyone help?
>
> Was't Paul's mother named Mary?
walter golac
ter...@execpc.com (Vespertyn) wrote:
>Recently someone from Britain told me that John Lennon was raised a
>Catholic. I know Paul's mother was Catholic, but hoped someone might be
>able to verify whether or not John was a Catholic. The reason this
>discussion came about was the song *Let It Be* and the references in the
>song such as *When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to
>me.* As a Catholic I feel that lyric has a strong Catholic sentiment to it.
> Can anyone help?
After saying he was bigger than Christ, I doubt it. Besides, almost
all Englishman are Anglican
Lisa
>>The reason this
>>discussion came about was the song *Let It Be* and the references in the
>>song such as *When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to
>>me.* As a Catholic I feel that lyric has a strong Catholic sentiment to
>>it. Can anyone help?
I don't think that the Mary reference in Let It Be was supposed to refer to
the Virgin, but to Paul's own mother, Mary, who died of cancer when he was a
teenager. He reportedly had had a dream about her, which was the inspiration
for the song.
Lisa
Edward S. Chen
As Paul has said on several occasions, it is about *both*. A strategy
he would apply later on "Flowers in the Dirt" with the line "Heavenly
Father, look down from above." (ie: both a personal and religious meaning
for those so inclined)
<ESC>
--
It's a cold hard fact when you're young and dumb,
The trouble with trouble is...it starts out as fun.
-- T. Murphy, 1995
Mir vs'im
If I'm not mistaken, three of the Fabs - John, Paul and George - were
from Liverpudlian Irish backgrounds. Philip Norman's book 'Shout' says
that George was baptized RC. And Robert MacNeil's 'The Story of English'
notes that Liverpudlians from an RC background pronounce 'early' as
'airly' and gives John Lennon as an example, as opposed to Cilla Black,
from a Protestant background, who says something more like 'urrly'.
My theory, based on what little I know, is that these three came from
families that traditionally were Catholic but John, Paul and George were
not brought up in that faith.
+ Mir vs'im + Peace be with all +
HofnerB
All four Beatles were of Irish origin and were Catholic by birth but not
appear to have been raised in devout homes. Hof
saki
In article <53bd5r$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, HofnerB <hof...@aol.com> wrote:
>All four Beatles were of Irish origin and were Catholic by birth but not
>appear to have been raised in devout homes.
Ringo's heritage was English and Scottish (Parkin/Starkey). I'm not aware
that there was any Catholicism in his background; do you have further
information on this?
The other three had varying levels of Irish in their veins, but none of
them were actually Catholic by birth, as offspring of "mixed" marriages
(unless Harold Harrison Sr. was Catholic too...any evidence that he was?)
The Stanleys appear not to have been Catholic but Church of England; to my
knowledge there was no Catholic influence in John's upbringing. The
orphanage where Alf Lennon and his siblings were housed may have been
Catholic, but Alf was not what one could call religious, and had virtually
no influence (religious or otherwise) on his son's sense of spirituality.
Paul's mother was Catholic but his dad a Protestant (some sources say
agnostic). The McCartneys went out of their way to avoid giving Paul and
his brother Michael a parochial education.
If you have newer information, please do post. This question comes up
quite a bit and it's always a comfort to have reliable citations.
--
-------------------------
"There are seven levels."
-----------------------------------------------------
sa...@evolution.bchs.uh.edu * dl...@midway.uchicago.edu
Miguel Balbuena
HofnerB (hof...@aol.com) wrote:
: All four Beatles were of Irish origin and were Catholic by birth but not
I read somewhere on the web that Ringo was Jewish. Any truth to this?
Miguel Balbuena
Roger Wiseman
In article <53bior$a...@newstand.syr.edu>,
NO!
--
cr...@ovnet.com (Crow(Roger Wiseman)) #(:)o]
Guitarist
__________________________________________
"Love is the answer..." John Lennon
Aaron Bucky
> HofnerB (hof...@aol.com) wrote:
> : All four Beatles were of Irish origin and were Catholic by birth but not
> : appear to have been raised in devout homes. Hof
>
> I read somewhere on the web that Ringo was Jewish. Any truth to this?
Ringo is not Jewish. People have been known to think he was, but this
seems entirely due to the stereotypical image of Jews having large noses
(like Ringo's). Ringo even mentions in an Anthology interview how some
extremist group in Quebec issued threats against him "as an English Jew",
and then points out the ironic fact that he isn't even Jewish.
Danilka
Miguel Balbuena wrote:
>
> HofnerB (hof...@aol.com) wrote:
> : All four Beatles were of Irish origin and were Catholic by birth but not
> : appear to have been raised in devout homes. Hof
>
The name McCartney is not very Irish, is it? Sounds scottish to me.
Well, they all had mixed families, and really are Starkey and Harrison
Irish at all?? I thought Ringo and George were raised protestant..
Bill Cusick
Danilka <ddus...@pomona.edu> wrote:
>The name McCartney is not very Irish, is it? Sounds scottish to me.
>Well, they all had mixed families, and really are Starkey and Harrison
>Irish at all?? I thought Ringo and George were raised protestant..
Paul mentioned in the Anthology video that his mother was Catholic and
his dad was Protestant. Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I would
suppose that many, if not most, of the Catholics in Liverpool come from
an Irish ethnic heritage.
George said explicitly in the Anthology video that his mother came from a
large Irish family.
John, of course, provides the Irish Gaelic etymology of the name "Lennon"
on back of the lyric insert that came with the original "Walls and
Bridges" album.
Speaking of the Beatles and things Irish -----
In his book "Twighlight of the Gods/The Music of the Beatles" Wilfrid
Mellers makes the point that growing up in working class Liverpool, the
Beatles would have heard Irish/Scottish jigs and reels and Anglo/Irish
songs. This music would have been written in modes (ancient scales) that
would have differed from the scales used for rock 'n roll. He further
argues that elements of these Celtic folk musics can be found in some
Beatles music and, in fact, constitute one element that makes Beatles
music recognizably different from the American popular music of the time.
I am no musicologist, but it is an interesting theory!
Doc Bones
Danilka wrote:
>
> Miguel Balbuena wrote:
> >
> > HofnerB (hof...@aol.com) wrote:
> > : All four Beatles were of Irish origin and were Catholic by birth but not
> > : appear to have been raised in devout homes. Hof
> >
>
> Well, they all had mixed families, and really are Starkey and Harrison
> Irish at all?? I thought Ringo and George were raised protestant..
Paul's mom was Catholic and his dad was Protestant....hope this clears
that up!
Wric
/
Peter Fitzpatrick
Catatonic ? doesn't he play for Man Utd. ?
--
now listening to : XTC "Oranges & Lemons"
http://aoife.indigo.ie/~beatle
Wric <usfm...@ibmmail.com> wrote in article <3259F9...@ibmmail.com>...
> /
>
Danilka
Mmm. Nationality is passed from father onto his children, unless you're
Jewish, than your nationality passes from your mother. This is for
Americans who generally don't know what nationality is at all.
Joseph Anthony Calderaio
I returned a book to the library on my lunch hour today and a few
minutes to kill so I did a little research. I stated in a previous
article that I had read that both Paul and George were baptized Roman
Catholic. I also stated that I read that Paul had his marriage blessed
by a Roman Catholic priest. I picked out 3 books which I had previously
read: "McCartney" by Chris Salewicz; "Dark Horse" by Geoffrey Giuliano;
and "Ringo Starr: Straight Man Or Joker" by Alan Clayson.
In his book "McCartney" Chris Salewicz stated on page 23 "Both
Paul and his brother had been christened as Catholics: however Jim
McCartney was adamant that his boys should not attend a Catholic
school, institutions that he believed did not provide enough of an
education."
On page 212 Salewizc reports, "Unsurprisingly, considering the
erratic but indubitable spiritual awakening that Paul had undergone
over the past two years, the ceremony was followed by a blessing at a
Roman Catholic church in St. John's Wood."
Just to add my two cents, where I come from, Philadelphia,
Catholics who live in the city, in most cases, want to send their
children to parochial schools. It's felt that parochial education is
better. However, their suburban Catholic counterparts in some cases
prefer the public school system. Out in the suburbs it's felt that the
public school system is just as good if not better than the Catholic
schools.
In his book "Dark Horse" Geoffrey Giuliano writes on page 6 "At
his mother's insistence, baby George was baptized a Catholic like the
other children, although the Harrisons were admittedly not overtly
religious." I am aware that Giuliano is not a reliable source because
of his feuding with the FABS.I'm sure that I read in other books that
both Paul and George were baptized Roman Catholic.
The only thing that I remember about Ringo was that I was
confused about his religious persuasion (Catholic or Anglican).
Glancing back through the pages of "Ringo Starr: Straight Man Or Joker"
in the few minutes that I had to spare did not clear up this issue.
Except for reading about John Lennon's Irish ancestry I don't
recall anything that would lead me to believe that he was baptized a
Roman Catholic.
Joe Calderaio
Miguel Balbuena
Joseph Anthony Calderaio (joe...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: On page 212 Salewizc reports, "Unsurprisingly, considering the
: erratic but indubitable spiritual awakening that Paul had undergone
: over the past two years, the ceremony was followed by a blessing at a
: Roman Catholic church in St. John's Wood."
http://bobcat.bbn.com/bobcatftp/pub/beatles/dates/march says:
> March 12, 1969
> Morning: Marriage of Paul and Linda, at the Marylebone Register Office.
> Heather, Mike McGear, Mal Evans and Peter Brown attend.
> The second part of the wedding takes place at the St. John's Wood
> anglican church, and is officiated by priest Noel Perry.
> Later, party at the Hotel Ritz.
Miguel Balbuena
Joseph Anthony Calderaio
In <53epi7$m...@newstand.syr.edu> balb...@newstand.syr.edu (Miguel
Does this site list any sources of information? I don't know if
this is true but wasn't it rumored that the source of alot of material
in Salewicz's "McCartney" was Mike McCartney, Paul's younger
brother(whose alias was Mike McGear). Right now I'd place my bet on
Salewicz.
Joe Calderaio
Patrick
>
>The name McCartney is not very Irish, is it? Sounds scottish to me.
>Well, they all had mixed families, and really are Starkey and Harrison
>Irish at all?? I thought Ringo and George were raised protestant..
Lennon is often theorized to be a bastardization of the Irish
"Lenahan." "Mc" and "Mac" are prominent in both Scotland and Ireland.
Harrison I believe is English. Starkey is anyone's guess. Some
interesting things: Paul's granddad in AHDN is said to be Irish,
though this was probably a way for the English to make a caricature of
him. (If you're English and you're reading this, please don't send
hate mail-- it's a fact that Irish people are the butt of many jokes
in England). John also named his son Sean because it was Irish for
John (if I remember the Playboy interview correctly). Love all,
Patrick
saki
In article <53es5m$9...@news.ntplx.net>, <Patrick> wrote:
>
>Lennon is often theorized to be a bastardization of the Irish
>"Lenahan."
Or O'Lennain.
"Mc" and "Mac" are prominent in both Scotland and Ireland.
There's a Scots clan called MacLennan. I always see them right next to
mine at the local Scottish games.
>Harrison I believe is English.
I think so. I was looking through Alan Clayson's bio of George last night
(thanks, Steve!) and saw family names like Hargreaves and Thompson, in
addition to Harrison (paternal) and French (maternal). Clayson traces
George's roots to the Wavertree area of Liverpool, going back several
hundred years.
BTW, as I suspected, Clayson reports that Harold Harrison Sr. was indeed a
lapsed Anglican, though George's mum Louise had George and Peter baptized
Catholic and attempted to have them take up the religion seriously. George
reports rebelling and putting it behind him at about age eleven.
> Starkey is anyone's guess.
Clayson believes that Parkin (maternal) is English, Starkey is Scottish.
>Paul's granddad in AHDN is said to be Irish,
>though this was probably a way for the English to make a caricature of
>him.
Liverpool has a hearty Irish contingent, which influences the local accent
as well. It's quite in keeping to have Paul's mythical grandad be Irish.
>John also named his son Sean because it was Irish for
>John (if I remember the Playboy interview correctly).
Sean is the Irish Gaelic form of John.
Laura Dever
Doc Bones wrote:
>
> Danilka wrote:
> >
> > Miguel Balbuena wrote:
> > >
> > > HofnerB (hof...@aol.com) wrote:
> > > : All four Beatles were of Irish origin and were Catholic by birth but not
> > > : appear to have been raised in devout homes. Hof
> > >
> >
> > Well, they all had mixed families, and really are Starkey and Harrison
> > Irish at all?? I thought Ringo and George were raised protestant..
>
> that up!
Paul's mother was Catholic and named Mary Mohin. I believe that Paul was
the only one raised Catholic, much to his father's dismay. The Mother
Mary in "Let It Be" is his mother. Both sides of his family were of Irish
ancestory, I believe. As far as I remember, Paul was the only one raised
Catholic.
From Me To You,
Laura
gordon thompson
: Speaking of the Beatles and things Irish -----
: In his book "Twighlight of the Gods/The Music of the Beatles" Wilfrid
: Mellers makes the point that growing up in working class Liverpool, the
: Beatles would have heard Irish/Scottish jigs and reels and Anglo/Irish
: songs. This music would have been written in modes (ancient scales) that
: would have differed from the scales used for rock 'n roll. He further
: argues that elements of these Celtic folk musics can be found in some
: Beatles music and, in fact, constitute one element that makes Beatles
: music recognizably different from the American popular music of the time.
: I am no musicologist, but it is an interesting theory!
Well, I'm an ethnomusicologist (even if I don't play one on TV :) )
but I think we have to take Mellers' opinions with a grain of salt.
My sense of his assessment is tied to my understanding of the way
British musicologists of the mid-sixties would have thought.
Mellers was unusual in that he actually attempted to describe the
music of a pop group -- something most of his colleagues would have
been loathe to do. However, his training, I suspect, would have lead
him to analyse the music in a typically British fashion. Here are my
reasons. A standard musicological response of the period would
have presumed that whatever was not classical must be some form of
folk music and, in this case, must be some form of British folk music.
True British music (including classical music) was presumed to be
influenced by folk genres. Scholars such as Cecil Sharp and Maud
Karpeles collected and analysed lots of English, Scottish, Irish, and
Welsh music. Composers such as Gustav Holst and Ralph Vaughn Williams
included English folk songs in their compositions.
Now, when Mellers is asked what makes this music different from
American rock and roll, his natural response is that it must be
influenced by British folk song. His reasoning then pursues the most
likely path: "Well, they're from the north so they must have listened
to lots of Scottish and Irish music." But there are a number of
problems with this line of reasoning.
For starters, the music we hear about when we read about the Lennon,
McCartney and Harrison as boys is the music associated with dance
bands and music halls. The next music we hear about is skiffle, white
interpretations of Black American and Anglo American folk song. The
next thing we know is that Elvis is king. Finally, where do the
Beatles hammer out their sound: Hamburg. Who are their models? Fats
Waller, Elvis Presley, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Buck Owens, Arthur
Alexander, Eddie Cochran, etc. Whose music do the cover? the
Shirelles, Berry, Richard, Alexander, etc. And what do we make of
"Besame Mucho" and "Til There Was You"?
So, let's ask ourselves a different question. If the music of the
Beatles reflects Celtic influences, what would we be looking for?
Scales? (Which scales and how would they be distinctly Celtic?)
Rhythms (Which rhythms and how would they be distinctly Celtic?) And
finally, which specific examples of Beatles music would we use to
examine this influence?
I think Mellers sailed into rather uncharted waters when he decided to
try and analyse the music of the Beatles and I think he should be
recognized for his efforts. But I also think his analyses tell us
more about him than they do about the music of the Beatles.
I've probably confused issues here. Sorry.
Gordon
--
===================================================================
Gordon Thompson gtho...@skidmore.edu
Dept of Music, Skidmore College phone 518-584-5000 x2611
Saratoga Springs, New York 12866-1632 fax 518-584-3023
===================================================================
mic...@sorel-tracy.qc.ca
Well, I'll try to have it done "short and sweet":
IMHO, the whole "rock'n'roll" phenomenon is purely an anglo-saxon
originated music, produced by a 300 years logical musical evolution.
The celtic music went from England/Ireland/Scotland to America in the
seventeenth century, than slowly transformed into american
"traditional" music. At this point, black slaves came in and tried to
imitate white men's music on white men's instruments and it gave the
world a particular brand of music that became known as "blues", which
is basically black men's own "country music", very similar in
structure to white country (basically built on an E-A-B or E-A-D
pattern). Black music itself is a "naturalisation" of primary
anglo-saxon (read Celtic) music.
Then, black music developped in different type of variations
(dixieland, jazz, rythm and blues etc...) while white music
transformed into "honky tonk", "western swing" and "blue grass".
The originators of rockabilly (the Sun "crew" in particular) were all
mixing "blue grass" "blues" "western swing" "boogie woogie" and
"R'n'B". The rock'n'roll sound of 57-58 was basically either an
heavier (electric) or, in some case, a sweeter (doo wops) evolution
of that first mix. By the way, take a listen to the 18 th century
song "The Battle" by the british composer by the name of Byrd, and
then listen to Buddy Holly's "Peggy Sue" and you will hear a perfect
similarity in chord progression!
While the U.S. musicians were commercially recycled into pop teen
idols, the "brits" got the stuff back after three centuries, and made
it evolves once again in their own way (one should listen to both
versions of "I'm gonna sit right down and cry over you", the one by
Elvis and the BBC version by the Beatles).
Actually all the Beatles early material (read pre-1966) was heavily
influenced by the rockabilly/folk/country/R'n'b sound and they took it
to it's apogee.
What came after 1966 is no longer "typical" celtic-originated music
but a clever blend of their previous style with classical, Indian and
contemporary music. Let's not forget the drug influence (disastrous
when consider under the human aspect, but obviously positive when
looked at with strictly musical considerations: Strawberry field
forever is a master piece...)
That's it folks!
Michel
Miguel Balbuena
: >
: >Joseph Anthony Calderaio (joe...@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: >: On page 212 Salewizc reports, "Unsurprisingly, considering the
: >: erratic but indubitable spiritual awakening that Paul had undergone
: >: over the past two years, the ceremony was followed by a blessing at
: >: a Roman Catholic church in St. John's Wood."
: >
: >http://bobcat.bbn.com/bobcatftp/pub/beatles/dates/march says:
: >
: >> March 12, 1969
: >
: >> Morning: Marriage of Paul and Linda, at the Marylebone Register
: >> Office.
: >> The second part of the wedding takes place at the St. John's Wood
: >> anglican church, and is officiated by priest Noel Perry.
: > Miguel Balbuena
: Does this site list any sources of information? I don't know if
: this is true but wasn't it rumored that the source of alot of material
: in Salewicz's "McCartney" was Mike McCartney, Paul's younger
: brother(whose alias was Mike McGear). Right now I'd place my bet on
: Salewicz.
: Joe Calderaio
The site lists ten books as sources. The only one of them that has
Paul's name in the title is "Paul McCartney: The Man Behind the Myth"
(1992) by Ross Benson, so I figure this is the source that claims
that Paul got married at an Anglican church. The Anthology TV series
has a portion on Paul's wedding but it doesn't specify whether the
church is Roman Catholic or Anglican.
Miguel Balbuena
john maxwell
I suppose we could look at this issue in the context of the times.
Folk music was undergoing a heavy revival in Britain during the late
50's and early 60's( I think skiffle may have been an extension of
this). People like Ewan Maccoll were going around Britain "collecting"
songs, for fear of their being lost from the collective memory.
What you'll find though, is that folk music has evolved or been
recreated, probably erroneously. Many of the instruments which are now
regarded as traditional because they are used by such Irish folk groups
as Boys of the Lough, or Planxty, are actually recent additions to the
sound. For example, the Bouzouki which has become a bit of a mainstay
in "hardcore" Irish and Scottish traditional bands was actually
introduced to the scene in the 1970's, by Andy Irvine (of Planxty and
Patrick Street), after developing an interest in Bulgarian music. This
sounds a bit like the Beatles inspiring folk instead of the other way
around( read George introducing the sitar).
I have a prejudice that traditional music is done better now, than it
was fifty years ago, which sounds a bit ridiculous, but some of you may
understand what I mean. Folk music was pretty schmaltzy in the
pre-revival period. I can't listen to things like" If You're Irish Step
Into the Parlour", or Scotland's, Kenneth McKellar's "Donald Where's
Yer'Troosers". That kind of music-hall folk would have been the kind of
stuff the Beatles heard when they were growing up.
Traditional folk-music isn't all that traditional from what I gather.
Instead, its been rebuilt, and I reckon with a good deal of
cross-fertilization between the pop world and the folk scenes.
I've skirted the issue of musical structure as I can't really notice
much of a correlation between the Beatles and the traditional songs. I'd
say that Norwegian Wood is the only one which strikes me as having a
sound like an Irish folk song.
As a personal wish, I'd love to see Paul McCartney do a celtic album
of his own songs. A song like "Mull of Kintyre" shows that he's capable
of pulling it off.
JM
john maxwell
Chris Hoelscher
gee - after looking at the cover of TWO VIRGINS, I would have sworn John
was Jewish <g>
Chris "a cut abouve the rest" Hoelscher
Lizz Braver
In article <53mhov$l...@newstand.syr.edu>, balb...@newstand.syr.edu
says...
>
> The site lists ten books as sources. The only one of them that has
>Paul's name in the title is "Paul McCartney: The Man Behind the Myth"
>(1992) by Ross Benson, so I figure this is the source that claims
>that Paul got married at an Anglican church. The Anthology TV series
>has a portion on Paul's wedding but it doesn't specify whether the
>church is Roman Catholic or Anglican.
>
All of this makes me want to ask the obvious question;
Was the Pope ever a Beatle?
Lizz "I know all bears are Catholic" Braver
bip
di...@ohww.norman.ok.us (Lizz Braver) wrote:
>All of this makes me want to ask the obvious question;
>
>Was the Pope ever a Beatle?
>
>Lizz "I know all bears are Catholic" Braver
He was never a Beatle but he must've been a Lennon-McCartney fan
because he re-named himself John Paul!
b <just kidding ;>
Joseph Anthony Calderaio
In <53mhov$l...@newstand.syr.edu> balb...@newstand.syr.edu (Miguel
Balbuena) writes:
>
> The site lists ten books as sources. The only one of them that has
>Paul's name in the title is "Paul McCartney: The Man Behind the Myth"
>(1992) by Ross Benson, so I figure this is the source that claims
>that Paul got married at an Anglican church. The Anthology TV series
>has a portion on Paul's wedding but it doesn't specify whether the
>church is Roman Catholic or Anglican.
>
Thank you Miquel. If I run accross this book, I'll check it out.
Well, we do have at least three sources (2 books and the Anthology TV
series) that claim that Paul and Linda had their marrage blessed. My
guess is that Paul likes to have all angles covered. :>)
Joe C
Miguel Balbuena
: Joe C
Linda Eastman comes from a Jewish family, whose former name was
Epstein. I wonder if her marriage with Paul was also blessed by a
Jewish rabbi, or did she convert to the Roman Catholic or Anglican
faith (whichever the case may be)? Also, are their children being
raised in any particular religious faith?
Miguel Balbuena
RasMaster
In article <3259F9...@ibmmail.com>, Wric <usfm...@ibmmail.com> writes:
>/
this is an interesting view. However, I have always tended to believe that
\
I have a friend who swears that >.'
Raymond Arritt
In article <Dyx4G...@midway.uchicago.edu>,
saki <dl...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>In article <53bd5r$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, HofnerB <hof...@aol.com> wrote:
>>All four Beatles were of Irish origin and were Catholic by birth but not
>>appear to have been raised in devout homes.
>
>them were actually Catholic by birth, as offspring of "mixed" marriages
>(unless Harold Harrison Sr. was Catholic too...any evidence that he was?)
>
>The Stanleys appear not to have been Catholic but Church of England; to my
>knowledge there was no Catholic influence in John's upbringing. The
>orphanage where Alf Lennon and his siblings were housed may have been
>Catholic, but Alf was not what one could call religious, and had virtually
>no influence (religious or otherwise) on his son's sense of spirituality.
>
>Paul's mother was Catholic but his dad a Protestant (some sources say
>agnostic). The McCartneys went out of their way to avoid giving Paul and
>his brother Michael a parochial education.
>
>If you have newer information, please do post. This question comes up
>quite a bit and it's always a comfort to have reliable citations.
In McCartney's introductory interview for "The Beatles Recording
Sessions" he mentions in passing:
"Black people have gospel choirs. All we had was Sunday School
and an absolutely ordinary C of E English upbringing until teenage
years, then we went from Cliff Richard to all the very black,
exciting and musically interesting stuff."
It's hard to figure out how much this means -- in particular, whether
the reference to "C of E" is to be taken literally, or is meant
figuratively as a contrast to the black experience.
There's also an amusing vignette in the Davies bio, in which
"the Vicar of St. Marks" drops by for an awkward request for
Paul to pop around to their garden fete. Paul responds by
saying "It just wouldn't be right, would it, as I don't believe."
There are a few other lines on Paul's early religion in the
Davies book, specifically concerning his prayers to bring
back his mother after her death: "...it just shows how stupid
religion is. See, the prayers didn't work, when I really
needed them to, as well." (The theological aspect of this
sort of thinking is something I'd rather not go into just now.)
One of the more interesting stories about Lennon's
early religious upbringing is from the Coleman bio:
"[Rod Davis] remembered [Lennon] as the scourge of St. Peter's
Sunday School classes. 'He arrived looking resentful at having
to come on Sunday mornings,' said Rod Davis, 'and he chewed
gum throughout the lessons. It just wasn't done to chew gum
at the Sunday School.' Eventually John and Shotton were
invited to leave, although Mimi says that he was confirmed,
at his own request, at the same church. 'Religion was never
rammed down his throat, but he certainly believed in God,
all through his childhood, and he asked to be confirmed.'"
I suspect that the basic facts are likely to be accurate; that is,
Lennon did have some semblance of a conventional religious
upbringing. Whether Aunt Mimi's comments are to be taken at
face value is a different question.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Raymond W. Arritt e-mail rwar...@iastate.edu
Dept of Agronomy, Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa 50011 USA
"I'm warming to the idea of an asylum." - JWL
saki
In article <53lprc$2...@wagner.spc.videotron.ca>,
<mic...@sorel-tracy.qc.ca> wrote:
>
>IMHO, the whole "rock'n'roll" phenomenon is purely an anglo-saxon
>originated music, produced by a 300 years logical musical evolution.
>
>The celtic music went from England/Ireland/Scotland to America in the
>seventeenth century, than slowly transformed into american
>"traditional" music. At this point, black slaves came in and tried to
>imitate white men's music on white men's instruments and it gave the
>world a particular brand of music that became known as "blues", which
>is basically black men's own "country music", very similar in
>structure to white country (basically built on an E-A-B or E-A-D
>pattern). Black music itself is a "naturalisation" of primary
>anglo-saxon (read Celtic) music.
I certainly enjoy good hypothesizing, but not being a musical historian
I can't cite any sources that would be helpful in supporting this idea.
As a blue-faced Celt myself, I confess the theory intrigues me, but
somehow it doesn't seem quite the best explanation. How do you prove that
blues chord structure derived from Scots-Irish folk traditions?
Are there any current schools of music that support this theory?
Just curious.
--
-----------------------------------------------------
"...*Nice* suits, because you're *nice boys*."
-----------------------------------------------------
sa...@evolution.bchs.uh.edu * dl...@midway.uchicago.edu
Aaron Bucky
In article <DzC1v...@midway.uchicago.edu>, dl...@midway.uchicago.edu
(saki) wrote:
> In article <53lprc$2...@wagner.spc.videotron.ca>,
> <mic...@sorel-tracy.qc.ca> wrote:
> >
> >IMHO, the whole "rock'n'roll" phenomenon is purely an anglo-saxon
> >originated music, produced by a 300 years logical musical evolution.
> >
> >The celtic music went from England/Ireland/Scotland to America in the
> >seventeenth century, than slowly transformed into american
> >"traditional" music. At this point, black slaves came in and tried to
> >imitate white men's music on white men's instruments and it gave the
> >world a particular brand of music that became known as "blues", which
> >is basically black men's own "country music", very similar in
> >structure to white country (basically built on an E-A-B or E-A-D
> >pattern). Black music itself is a "naturalisation" of primary
> >anglo-saxon (read Celtic) music.
>
> I certainly enjoy good hypothesizing, but not being a musical historian
> I can't cite any sources that would be helpful in supporting this idea.
>
> As a blue-faced Celt myself, I confess the theory intrigues me, but
> somehow it doesn't seem quite the best explanation. How do you prove that
> blues chord structure derived from Scots-Irish folk traditions?
I think he's both right and wrong. The blues originally evolved, like
jazz, from a mixture of the European (including Celtic) musical influences
that were dominant in America with African influences that were brought to
America by African slaves. It is not purely an "imitation" of white
European music; nor is it simply and purely African. It combines elements
of both, as does jazz (just as an unrelated footnote, it is a slight
misconception to say that Jazz evolved _from_ the blues. The earliest
jazz and the earliest blues as such seem to have crystalized into
recognizable forms at about the same time. They have many roots in
common, and both forms have had considerable influence on one another
throughout their history). The uptempo, amplified form known as rhythm
and blues evolved from the basic blues. Rock-'n'-roll originated with a
mutual influence between (mostly Black) R&B artists and (mostly White)
country artists who started playing the R&B-influenced form known as
rockabilly. The Beatles' early influences were a combination of
rockabilly and R&B--the same mixture that was what defined the term
"rock-'n'-roll".
Any Celtic influences the Beatles got through that circuitous route was
indirect and distant, to say the least. However, it seems to me that the
Beatles were also influenced by pre-rock British folk and pop musics, many
of which have Celtic roots.
Roger Wiseman
In article <325E40...@planet.eon.net>,
Roger K Adams <rka...@planet.eon.net> wrote:
>walter golac wrote:
>
>> After saying he was bigger than Christ, I doubt it. Besides, almost
>> all Englishman are Anglican
>
>Not necessarily true, Liverpool has a lot of people who of Irish descent so
I'd guess
>that a goodly proportion are Catholic. In this case, however, I don't think
this applies
>as John was not Catholic.
>
>Best Regards. Roger K Adams
>
>October 11, 1996
>5:42 am
I think John mentioned his Anglican church upbringing in one of his last
interviews.
--
cr...@ovnet.com (Crow(Roger Wiseman)) #(:)o]
Guitarist
__________________________________________
"Love is the answer..." John Lennon
Brett Pasternack
>ter...@execpc.com (Vespertyn) wrote:
>Recently someone from Britain told me that John Lennon was raised a
>Catholic. I know Paul's mother was Catholic, but hoped someone might
>able to verify whether or not John was a Catholic. The reason this
>discussion came about was the song *Let It Be* and the references in t
>song such as *When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary come
>me.* As a Catholic I feel that lyric has a strong Catholic sentiment
> Can anyone help?
Those lyrics were written by Paul, not John. (Paul's mother was named
Mary.)
As far as I know, all four Beatles were of Irish Catholic descent. however,
None of them seem to have embraced Catholicism as adults.
* Wave Rider 1.20 [NR] *
... UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY
Cybernanc
In article <538q13$1...@newsops.execpc.com>, ter...@execpc.com (Vespertyn)
writes:
>Recently someone from Britain told me that John Lennon was raised a
>Catholic. I know Paul's mother was Catholic, but hoped someone might be
>able to verify whether or not John was a Catholic. The reason this
>discussion came about was the song *Let It Be* and the references in the
>song such as *When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes
to
>me.* As a Catholic I feel that lyric has a strong Catholic sentiment to
it.
> Can anyone help?
>
>
Actually, those lines are attributed to Paul...writing about his mother
Mary who was killed when he was 14...don't think they have any religious
connotation to them at all.
As far as John, I think he eschewed religion from early on...whether or
not he was raised Catholic, he certainly wasn't a practicing one!!!
~~nancy~~
JFord3156
Maybe John was raised Catholic, but I don't think he believed in
Christianity for very long. He was into some pretty wierd stuff, wasn't
he?
RasMaster
In article <54bha4$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, cybe...@aol.com
(Cybernanc) writes:
> his mother
>Mary who was killed when he was 14.
Is the phrase "was killed" usually used in terms of someone dying of as a
result of cancer.?
Roger K Adams
HofnerB wrote:
>
> All four Beatles were of Irish origin and were Catholic by birth but not
Almost anyone from Liverpool, whose family could trace a presence there for more than a
couple of generations, are likely to have some Irish in their blood. FYI, the Liverpool
Irish were of a couple of religious persuasions, one being Catholic, the other being
Protestant, and within the Protestant contingent, the Orange Order loomed large.
Liverpool had a lot of the same problems as Northern Ireland had, and still is,
experiencing. Blood was not infrequently spilt on the various annual marches, especially
the 12 July, when the Orange Lodge made their parade through the streets of Liverpool.
BTW, I think you're wrong re the religion of the 4 lads, I'm pretty sure they weren't
all Catholic.
Best Regards. Roger K Adams
October 20, 1996
1:21 pm
Craig Stark
John and Ringo were raised Church of England (C of E); George and Paul
were raised Roman Catholic, although Paul's dad was athiest supposedly.
Neil Garland
I really doubt it. My guess is that he was raised in the Anglican Church,
which does invoke many of the images commonly associated with the Roman
Catholic Church to which you make reference. It really doesn't matter,
though, because he's normally thought of as an atheist (he actually
wasn't), he did not formally embrace any mainstream Christian theology,
and he contributed nothing to theological thought. To that extent, he
was about as Catholic as he was Hindu, Jewish or Presbyterian.
Carolyn Maureen Pritchard
I don't know what John was, but Paul's mom was Catholic, his pop was
Protestant (probably Church of England) but I read that they were not
raised in either church.
Gael McGear Sweeney
John states clearly in the Hunter Davies book that he was raised in the
C of E (aka Church of England or Anglican Church). Technically, High
Anglicanism is a "Catholic" church, but Anglo-Catholic (as in founded
by Henry VIII) and NOT Roman Catholic.
Gael
gswe...@syr.edu
http://users.aol.com/gaelmcgear/gaelpage.html
"If there is a light at the end of the tunnel, it's the light of an
oncoming train."
Robert Lowell
led...@aol.com
I remember before I went into the army in 1969, I have a Beatle Album
titles"Yesterday and Today" It was an original "Butcher Cover" It is
worth about $300.00 today. My father didn't like the picture, so when I
went into the army, he threw out all of my Beatle Items. I wonder if
anyone has this Album.
Carolyn Maureen Pritchard
Ken Stuart (kst...@mail.telis.org) wrote:
: In an eloquent manner, dl...@midway.uchicago.edu (saki) elucidated:
: >In article <55erh0$i...@newstand.syr.edu>,
: >Gael McGear Sweeney <gswe...@syr.edu> wrote:
: >
: >>John states clearly in the Hunter Davies book that he was raised in the
: >>C of E (aka Church of England or Anglican Church). Technically, High
: >>Anglicanism is a "Catholic" church, but Anglo-Catholic (as in founded
: >>by Henry VIII) and NOT Roman Catholic.
: >
: >I'm still confused. I thought Anglican (though derived liturgically and
: >otherwise from Catholicism) was regarded as Protestant?
: It is indeed Protestant.
: And it is also Catholic.
I am Anglican, and I can tell you now, we are NOT Catholic.
: :-)
: That is, it agrees with Luther's "protests", but it retains its
: lineage from the apostles, ie all its bishops share the same lineage
: as the Roman Catholics, up until the time of the break-away in the
: time of Henry VIIIth.
: Other Protestant churches often don't even have bishops, and don't
: recognize that the apostolic succession means anything.
: Liturgically, it depends on the local church, which can either be
: "high" (ie sung liturgy, bells, incense, etc.) or "low" or something
: in between.
: Cheers,
: Ken <*>
: kst...@mail.telis.org