Was "Come Together" Really Stolen From Chuck Berry?

[Norbert K]

There are all sorts of articles online claiming the Beatles' (specifically John's) song "Come Together" was lifted from Chuck Berry's "You Can't Catch Me." And John is said to have admitted as much in an interview at some point - though I can't find this interview.

But is it really fair to say "Come Together" was stolen from the Berry song? There is the reference in the lyrics to "old flat-top." So I'll buy that John's song was *inspired* by the Berry song; we know he loved Berry. But musically speaking, I don't, for the life of me, hear "Come Together" as a copy. The Berry song is relatively fast, guitar-driven, (I guess) rockabilly. The Beatles song is considerably slower, with bass as the dominant instrument; the entire feel is totally different. If there had not been an alleged confession from Lennon of having copied the song, *and* Lennon's agreement to placate Levy by covering three of his songs on his oldies album, I don't see how anyone can say "Come together" was lifted.

[P-Dub]

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 9:22:28 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
> There are all sorts of articles online claiming the Beatles' (specifically John's) song "Come Together" was lifted from Chuck Berry's "You Can't Catch Me." And John is said to have admitted as much in an interview at some point - though I can't find this interview.
>
> But is it really fair to say "Come Together" was stolen from the Berry song? There is the reference in the lyrics to "old flat-top." So I'll buy that John's song was *inspired* by the Berry song; we know he loved Berry. But musically speaking, I don't, for the life of me, hear "Come Together" as a copy. The Berry song is relatively fast, guitar-driven, (I guess) rockabilly. The Beatles song is considerably slower, with bass as the dominant instrument; the entire feel is totally different. If there had not been an alleged confession from Lennon of having copied the song, *and* Lennon's agreement to placate Levy by covering three of his songs on his oldies album, I don't see how anyone can say "Come together" was lifted.

You can be inspired by another song. But unless the melody and/or a good chunk of the lyrics are a copy - then no. It's not 'lifted' from Chuck Berry. Come Together was a great original song by John - one of the last he wrote for the Beatles.

On a related note, My Sweet Lord was lifted from He's So Fine - subconsciously.

[Norbert K]

Right. And it seems to me that Levy didn't really have a case. There's the reference to "Old Flat-Top"; that's it. I can not believe Levy could have successfully won a plagiarism suit against Lennon on that basis.

Maybe Lennon wanted to do an oldies album anyway, and thought, "What the hell; I'll agree to whaty Levy wants and avoid the trouble of fighting a lawsuit."

> On a related note, My Sweet Lord was lifted from He's So Fine - subconsciously.

Yep.

[Lord Valve]

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 8:39:23 AM UTC-6, P-Dub wrote:

>
> On a related note, My Sweet Lord was lifted from He's So Fine - subconsciously.

Subconsciously? Ssssuuuurrre...dozens of top recording
engineers, studio cats, backup singers and top audio pros
on the scene, and not a single one of 'em said, "Hey...
y'know, this tune sounds a helluva lot like "He's So Fine"
by the Chiffons..." Meanwhile, back in the states, yours
truly hears the tune on the radio a couple of days after
it was released; I immediately remark to my drummer and
guitarist, riding in the front seat of our Chevy Series 30
panel truck on the way to a gig, "Hey! That's ripped off
from an old Chiffons tune!" And the guitar player says,
"Hey, yeah, that's He's So Fine." Of course, we weren't
high-powered music industry bigwigs, so we musta been
fulla shit, eh?

Y'all wanna buy a bridge?


Lord Valve, ThD
Expert (fuck you)

[Norbert K]

You'd think someone would have said something, but George would be given a certain amount of deference. Also his demo, at least the version I heard, was a lot less like the Chiffons' song. There were no backing vocals for instance. Come to think of it, I wonder if Spector patterned "his" version of the song after the Chiffons. Even if that's the case, someone should have rethought things a bit.

[Eric Ramon]

I'm always amazed when people *can't* hear that they're the same.

[Norbert K]

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 9:22:28 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:

> There are all sorts of articles online claiming the Beatles' (specifically John's) song "Come Together" was lifted from Chuck Berry's "You Can't Catch Me." And John is said to have admitted as much in an interview at some point - though I can't find this interview.
>
> But is it really fair to say "Come Together" was stolen from the Berry song? There is the reference in the lyrics to "old flat-top." So I'll buy that John's song was *inspired* by the Berry song; we know he loved Berry. But musically speaking, I don't, for the life of me, hear "Come Together" as a copy. The Berry song is relatively fast, guitar-driven, (I guess) rockabilly. The Beatles song is considerably slower, with bass as the dominant instrument; the entire feel is totally different. If there had not been an alleged confession from Lennon of having copied the song, *and* Lennon's agreement to placate Levy by covering three of his songs on his oldies album, I don't see how anyone can say "Come together" was lifted.

If the sources I've read online are accurate, Lennon and Levy reached an out-of-court settlement on October 12 of 1973. Levy would drop his lawsuit, and Lennon would record three of the songs Levy owned the copyrights to.

It was in October of 1973 that Lennon and May Pang moved to LA, living rent-free in the apartment of Harold Seider, Lennon's attorney. So the motive in moving to LA in the first place may have been to record the oldies album there.

The problem is, Lennon hired Spector to work as producer, and the unstable Spector eventually disappeared, taking Lennon's recordings with him. Lennon moved on to several other projects (producing for Nilsson; Walls & Bridges) - and when Walls & Bridges proved to not have Levy's promised cover songs, Levy - a dangerous guy - was pissed off. It sounds like a wild (& often fun, except for the Spector stuff) time.

[Eric Ramon]

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 6:22:28 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> There are all sorts of articles online claiming the Beatles' (specifically John's) song "Come Together" was lifted from Chuck Berry's "You Can't Catch Me." And John is said to have admitted as much in an interview at some point - though I can't find this interview.
>
> But is it really fair to say "Come Together" was stolen from the Berry song? There is the reference in the lyrics to "old flat-top." So I'll buy that John's song was *inspired* by the Berry song; we know he loved Berry. But musically speaking, I don't, for the life of me, hear "Come Together" as a copy. The Berry song is relatively fast, guitar-driven, (I guess) rockabilly. The Beatles song is considerably slower, with bass as the dominant instrument; the entire feel is totally different. If there had not been an alleged confession from Lennon of having copied the song, *and* Lennon's agreement to placate Levy by covering three of his songs on his oldies album, I don't see how anyone can say "Come together" was lifted.

I've read that the original tempo was a lot more like "You Can't Catch Me" but the song evolved into the swampy tune we now know. Levy wouldn't have known that, though.

Judges are not musical experts. I think this was a wrong decision. However, Levy was a gangster so it was probably better to pay him off.

[Norbert K]

My question is, When is Lennon supposed to have admitted in an interview that "Come Together" was inspired by or copied from the Chuck Berry song? Is this admission of Lennon's what got Levy thinking he could sue Lennon? I don't see what else could have done it. The "Ole flat-Top" doesn't like enough - even for a wheeler-dealer like Levy.

I have heard that Lennon's demo was much closer to "You Can't Me," and that McCartney, who also knew the song, made a number of suggestions to cover Lennon's trail. They worked, in my opinion.

I also read that it was Timothy Leary who asked Lennon to write a song called "Come together" that Leary could use for some political campaign. Lennon ended up too pleased with the song to give it to Leary.

[zippl...@gmail.com]

When I first heard "He's So Fine" I thought, Oh no for George, and it
took so long for it to get to court. I heard George defend it in an
interview saying he was trying to record another "Oh Happy Day".
What a lie from George, and why did he do a remake of the song right
before he died, if it wasn't the same tune basically as "He's So Fine"?

[zippl...@gmail.com]

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 9:49:41 AM UTC-5, Norbert K wrote:
> On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 10:39:23 AM UTC-4, P-Dub wrote:
> > On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 9:22:28 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
> > > There are all sorts of articles online claiming the Beatles' (specifically John's) song "Come Together" was lifted from Chuck Berry's "You Can't Catch Me." And John is said to have admitted as much in an interview at some point - though I can't find this interview.
> > >
> > > But is it really fair to say "Come Together" was stolen from the Berry song? There is the reference in the lyrics to "old flat-top." So I'll buy that John's song was *inspired* by the Berry song; we know he loved Berry. But musically speaking, I don't, for the life of me, hear "Come Together" as a copy. The Berry song is relatively fast, guitar-driven, (I guess) rockabilly. The Beatles song is considerably slower, with bass as the dominant instrument; the entire feel is totally different. If there had not been an alleged confession from Lennon of having copied the song, *and* Lennon's agreement to placate Levy by covering three of his songs on his oldies album, I don't see how anyone can say "Come together" was lifted.
> >
> > You can be inspired by another song. But unless the melody and/or a good chunk of the lyrics are a copy - then no. It's not 'lifted' from Chuck Berry. Come Together was a great original song by John - one of the last he wrote for the Beatles.
>
> Right. And it seems to me that Levy didn't really have a case. There's the reference to "Old Flat-Top"; that's it. I can not believe Levy could have successfully won a

Listen to Berry's "You can't catch me" and you'll hear after mutiple
times that it's the same tune as "Come Together"...sped up very quickly.
I didn't used to hear it for a long time, but it's there.

[Norbert K]

I'll listen to the Berry song again, although I really don't like that style. However, I firmly do not believe Levy would have won a plagiarism suit against Lennon.

[zippl...@gmail.com]

Just for that flatop lyric? Berry didn't own any language, and the
same goes for the nuttiness of Harrison asking permission from James
Taylor to borrow the line "something in the way she moves".

It makes no sense for example when Waylon Jennings writes a song called:
"Whatever gets you though the night". I'm pretty sure he didn't ask
Lennon permission to use that line.

[massey...@gmail.com]

FWIW, Jennings didn't write the song. Name a song that was challenged in court for using the same title as another song. The title of the song, "Come Together" was not in question in the lawsuit & there was more to the lawsuit than just 2 or 3 words.

[zippl...@gmail.com]

Okay, but you get the idea no matter who wrote the song. No? Oh well.

>> Name a song that was challenged in court for using the same title as another song. <<

That wasn't my point and you know it, but start writing some new Hey
Jude or Revolution, stick it on youtube and see how many views they
get. Hahaha.

>> The title of the song, "Come Together" was not in question in the lawsuit & there was more to the lawsuit than just 2 or 3 words.<<

I didn't hear much more about it. What did you hear?

[massey...@gmail.com]

Lennon was accused of lifting this entire line, "here come a flat-top, he was movin' up with me" and the melody of the two songs is similar, though The Beatles slowed it down. Some would say Lennon was inspired by the Berry song; others would say he lifted it. OTOH Levy had a reputation of being a snake & a thief himself (and with mob ties).

[Norbert K]

And let's not forget that, upon receiving Lennon's R&R demos, Levy released them through his mail-order business as "Roots." This resulted in another legal entanglement of claims & counterclaims, albeit with Lennon coming out on top because Roots effected a loss of royalties to R&R and hurt to Lennon's reputation.

[Norbert K]

I meant "rough versions" of the R&R songs, not demos.

[zippl...@gmail.com]

I think Lennon did a little of both though I don't understand why he
bothered? You don't have to borrow from other artist to write a good
song.

Do you remember how bad Lennon's Rock N' Roll album sounded on vinyl?
You could hear Lennon's voice on only about 2 songs, "Stand By Me"
and "Ain't That A Shame". I think the problem was fixed on CD wasn't it?

[zippl...@gmail.com]

I'm sure they wanted Lennon to record those three songs with the agreement
on the court settlement, because they knew Lennon would make them more
money than say Berry. I don't remember what the other 2 songs were or who
wrote them, but again, Lennon could make more money.

[Will Dockery]

"Norbert K" wrote in message
news:79ac8ffb-c1de-4790...@googlegroups.com...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have some difficulty seeing it at well... anyone on the Dylan group care
to expound?

[The Chris]

zippl...@gmail.com wrote in news:152bdfa5-9882-41db-8578-
ddb33f...@googlegroups.com:

> Listen to Berry's "You can't catch me" and you'll hear after mutiple
> times that it's the same tune as "Come Together"...sped up very quickly.
> I didn't used to hear it for a long time, but it's there.

I just did... In the verse, there's that same halting delivery. But by the
time of the chorus, Berry's song degrades into a standard 12-Bar, 1 - 4 -
5 song.

There is something there....

[The Chris]

zippl...@gmail.com wrote in news:79dc7708-f331-48d1-9d4f-
26ed40...@googlegroups.com:

>
> That wasn't my point and you know it, but start writing some new Hey
> Jude or Revolution, stick it on youtube and see how many views they
> get. Hahaha.
>
>>> The title of the song, "Come Together" was not in question in the
lawsui
> t & there was more to the lawsuit than just 2 or 3 words.<<
>
> I didn't hear much more about it. What did you hear?
>
>

Funny you should mention this. There's some all-girl metal band that just
put out a song called 'Whatever Gets you through the night'. My immediate
thought was, it's a cover. But no, it's a song with that as a chorus....
It might be legally okay, but, ridiculous...

[The Chris]

zippl...@gmail.com wrote in news:7b0295a0-cde6-4c58-8c00-
e3f4c8...@googlegroups.com:

> Do you remember how bad Lennon's Rock N' Roll album sounded on vinyl?
> You could hear Lennon's voice on only about 2 songs, "Stand By Me"
> and "Ain't That A Shame". I think the problem was fixed on CD wasn't it?

I don't remember this at all. I'm wondering if I ever had it on vinyl...
When you say that, do you mean that the vocals were mixed really low?

[Nil]

On 27 Jul 2018, The Chris <The_...@nospam.gmail.com> wrote in
rec.music.beatles:

> Funny you should mention this. There's some all-girl metal band
> that just put out a song called 'Whatever Gets you through the
> night'. My immediate thought was, it's a cover. But no, it's a
> song with that as a chorus.... It might be legally okay, but,
> ridiculous...

I guess you can't copyright a song title because there have been many
dupicates over the centuries.

I've heard at least two other songs with the title, "Please Please Me".

[Norbert K]

John Lennon supposedly (according to May) lifted the theme of "Whatever Gets You Through the Night" from a black TV or radio preacher.

[Nil]

On 28 Jul 2018, Norbert K <norbert...@gmail.com> wrote in
rec.music.beatles:

> John Lennon supposedly (according to May) lifted the theme of
> "Whatever Gets You Through the Night" from a black TV or radio
> preacher.

According to Wikipedia (not the last word, of course):

"The inspiration for the lyrics came from late-night television. In
December 2005, May Pang told Radio Times: "At night he loved to
channel-surf, and would pick up phrases from all the shows. One time,
he was watching Reverend Ike, a famous black evangelist, who was
saying, "Let me tell you guys, it doesn't matter, it's whatever gets
you through the night." John loved it and said, "I've got to write it
down or I'll forget it." He always kept a pad and pen by the bed. That
was the beginning of 'Whatever Gets You Thru the Night'.

"The music was inspired by the number one single at the time, "Rock
Your Baby" by George McCrae. Although the released track bears little
resemblance, the inspiration is more apparent on the alternative
version released on John Lennon Anthology."

So the lyrics were "inspired" by a phrase he heard on TV. The music was
"inspired" by "Rock Your Baby" by George McCrae. Not that far away from
The Beatles being inspired by lots of American R&B and girl group
records from the '50s and early '60s.

I remember the George McRae tune from the radio from back in the day. I
liked it, but I had forgotten all about it until I listened to it on
Youtube just now. I can hear a bit of the "Rock Your Baby" groove in
"Whatever Gets You Through the Night". RYB is gentler and... groovier.
I hear WGYTTN as rushed and frantic in a cocaine-driven way. It makes
me twitch.

[hector]

On 20/07/2018 11:22 PM, Norbert K wrote:
> There are all sorts of articles online claiming the Beatles' (specifically John's) song "Come Together" was lifted from Chuck Berry's "You Can't Catch Me." And John is said to have admitted as much in an interview at some point - though I can't find this interview.
>
> But is it really fair to say "Come Together" was stolen from the Berry song? There is the reference in the lyrics to "old flat-top." So I'll buy that John's song was *inspired* by the Berry song; we know he loved Berry. But musically speaking, I don't, for the life of me, hear "Come Together" as a copy. The Berry song is relatively fast, guitar-driven, (I guess) rockabilly. The Beatles song is considerably slower, with bass as the dominant instrument; the entire feel is totally different. If there had not been an alleged confession from Lennon of having copied the song, *and* Lennon's agreement to placate Levy by covering three of his songs on his oldies album, I don't see how anyone can say "Come together" was lifted.
>

For those who haven't found it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S80fSH0V9c

[hector]

..mistake..

[zippl...@gmail.com]

Yep, thanks for your post.

[zippl...@gmail.com]

Yes, the vocals were mixed so low on Vinyl.

[johnjo...@gmail.com]

You clearly cant here music if you cant hear it because it is the exact same. John just slowed it down and put a big base riff on it. They dont even deny it eithir.

[zippl...@gmail.com]

Well stated.

[Nil]

And yet, hear you arr, trying to appeel to your bass demagrafic. Eithir
you get it orr you donut.

[Norbert K]

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 9:22:28 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
> There are all sorts of articles online claiming the Beatles' (specifically John's) song "Come Together" was lifted from Chuck Berry's "You Can't Catch Me." And John is said to have admitted as much in an interview at some point - though I can't find this interview.
>
> But is it really fair to say "Come Together" was stolen from the Berry song? There is the reference in the lyrics to "old flat-top." So I'll buy that John's song was *inspired* by the Berry song; we know he loved Berry. But musically speaking, I don't, for the life of me, hear "Come Together" as a copy. The Berry song is relatively fast, guitar-driven, (I guess) rockabilly. The Beatles song is considerably slower, with bass as the dominant instrument; the entire feel is totally different. If there had not been an alleged confession from Lennon of having copied the song, *and* Lennon's agreement to placate Levy by covering three of his songs on his oldies album, I don't see how anyone can say "Come together" was lifted.

Who among us knows the guitar parts to both songs ("Come Together" & "You Can't Me")? Is it the same chord progression?

I don't doubt that Lennon's song was inspired by Berry's. Lennon's reverence for Berry is well-known (e.g., he liked covering Berry's songs in the studio; he had Berry on the Mike Douglas show when he & Yoko guest-hosted it). The question w/ which I started this thread is whether Lennon's song is a copy.

Lennon had a lawyer named Harold Seider who, IIRC, was prepared to fight Levy's lawsuit, though Lennon obviously didn't go that route.

[Nil]

On 02 Dec 2018, Norbert K <norbert...@gmail.com> wrote in
rec.music.beatles:

> Who among us knows the guitar parts to both songs ("Come Together"
> & "You Can't Me")? Is it the same chord progression?

There is no musical similarity between the two except that they are
both derived from the blues, but each in a completely different way.

Lyrically there's that one line (and even that's no identical) but
nothing else to link the two songs. I've always thought that this was
the most trivial of lawsuits. Without knowing much about the case, I
have an idea that John didn't put up a real fight, figuring that he had
enough money that he could afford to pay Chuck back some of the money
that the industry had screwed him out of.

So, no "Come Together" is in no way a copy of "You Can't Catch Me". I
think Lennon could have easily beat the suit... if he really wanted to.

This is in contrast with Harrison's suit. I think "My Sweet Lord" is
more a tribute to "He's So Fine" than an actual rip-off, I can see how
in legal terms they were able to rule against him.

[Norbert K]

On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 1:29:23 PM UTC-5, Nil wrote:
> On 02 Dec 2018, Norbert K <norbert...@gmail.com> wrote in
> rec.music.beatles:
>
> > Who among us knows the guitar parts to both songs ("Come Together"
> > & "You Can't Me")? Is it the same chord progression?
>
> There is no musical similarity between the two except that they are
> both derived from the blues, but each in a completely different way.
>
> Lyrically there's that one line (and even that's no identical) but
> nothing else to link the two songs. I've always thought that this was
> the most trivial of lawsuits. Without knowing much about the case, I
> have an idea that John didn't put up a real fight, figuring that he had
> enough money that he could afford to pay Chuck back some of the money
> that the industry had screwed him out of.
>
> So, no "Come Together" is in no way a copy of "You Can't Catch Me". I
> think Lennon could have easily beat the suit... if he really wanted to.

Thanks, that's what I thought. And you're right; even the references to the "flat-top" are different. In Lennon's Beatles song, it refers to a person; in Berry's song it refers to a police car.

[zippl...@gmail.com]

It’s basically the Berry’s tune though, slowed down. Oh well, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

[Norbert K]

On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 7:35:26 AM UTC-5, zippl...@gmail.com wrote:
> It’s basically the Berry’s tune though, slowed down. Oh well, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

It doesn't mean that each opinion is accurate. I will say that when Lennon covered "You Can't Catch Me" for his Rock'n'Roll album, he really did merge the two songs (even to the point of having a drum fill that was a little bit like what Ringo does in CT); he was having fun, it appears, with the controversy.

[zippl...@gmail.com]

From what I’ve heard over the years, Lennon mostly got into trouble for using “Here comes old flattop”.
McCartney on Youtube is quoted as telling Lennon that he couldn’t use that line because of the Berry
song. Lennon himself knew he was in hot water, so thst’s probably why he didn’t fight it. If we go by
just that lyric itself, it comes off as pretty stupid for a reason to sue, in my opinion. After all, Berry
doesn’t own any words or the English language. The same goes for Harrison asking James Taylor
for permission to use the lyric, “Something in the way she moves”. And anyway, what’s Taylor going
to say? Would he refuse Harrison’s request after the Beatles did him a favor and signed him to
Apple?

[zippl...@gmail.com]

As far as you saying each opinion isn’t accurate, that’s true, but we weren’t there to make any decisions
on this subject, therefore we express opinions that may or may not be accurate to have a discussion.
Much of what is said here isn’t always accurate, but we do the best that we can to have a discussion,
to get to the truth. Sometimes nobody has the correct answer, and sometimes somebody does, or
we feel that they do.