** DAY TRIPPER vs. PRETTY WOMAN **
Mr. John James Whelan
We've known that John got his musical influences from different
rock idols as he was growing up. Some of his music ended up sounding
similar to those tunes he listened to. For example, Come Together
was a direct rip-off of Chuck Berry's YOU CAN'T CATCH ME while Hey
Bulldog is done in a similiar ilk to MONEY. Even the Ballad of John
and Yoko had the guitar shuffle which was copied from LONESOME TEARS
IN MY EYES (listen to "Live at the BBC" side two, track 12).
I wonder if anyone agrees with me that Day Tripper is very similiar
to Roy Orbinson's "Pretty Woman." (To see what I mean, record these
songs "back-to-back" on audio tape and listen to them.) To me, the
chord shuffle and progression is done in the same ilk (it may NOT be
the exact same chords but it sounds similiar). Also, in Orbinsons song,
the drummer beats strong and steady. Doesn't Ringo do the same thing
on Day Tripper. I think John may have "nicked" a few ideas off of
Orbinson's song and changed the chord structure just enough to avoid
a lawsuit.
Your comments on this one, please! Both pros and cons!
John
"...She's a big teaser, she took me half the way there!"
-- Day Tripper
KMalone32
The similarites are there, but not quite as evident as "Come Together",
etc.....actually, you could compare just about EVERY song to something
else, it is downright next to impossible to create a song without ANYTHING
borrowed.
Day Tripper never struck me as similar to anything else, it is definitely
not as obvious as "My Sweet Lord" / "He's So Fine" and songs like those
that pretty much are directly "borrowed".
per...@superlink.net
would say first that "Pretty Woman" first sounds a bit like "Money" and
that "Day Tripper" is a combo of those two songs. I have the sheet
music and the guitar rift to all these songs are variations of each
other.
I tend to think Roy Orbison copied "Money"; thus making "Pretty
Woman" and the Bealtes copied the previous two. Day Tripper was
supposed to be the Beatles response to the Rolling Stones
"Satisfaction".
SFForever
" I tend to think Roy Orbison copied "Money";"
This could take years of therapy to sort out.
On what planet are these two songs considered even remotely similar? And
on what basis? They are both songs? They are both sung and performed by
homo sapiens?;)
SFFo...@aol.com (Oceandig)
"Let me explain something to you Walsh...this business takes a certain
amount of finesse"- (Chinatown)
SFForever
" Your comments on this one, please! Both pros and cons!"
Now here is a guy with WAY too much time on his hands;)
The songs couldn't be more dissimilar, in rhythm, drum pattern, guitar
lick, chords...you name it. The only thing they have in common is they
both utilize a strongly melodic guitar hook....like a dozen other rock
songs.
Mr. John James Whelan
CORRECTION! I was not refering
Mr. John James Whelan (an...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
> (per...@superlink.net) writes:
>> Mr. John James Whelan wrote:
>>
>> We've known that John got his musical influences from different
>> rock idols as he was growing up. Some of his music ended up sounding
>> similar to those tunes he listened to. For example, Come Together
>> was a direct rip-off of Chuck Berry's YOU CAN'T CATCH ME while Hey
>> Bulldog is done in a similiar ilk to MONEY. Even the Ballad of John
>> and Yoko had the guitar shuffle which was copied from LONESOME TEARS
>> IN MY EYES (listen to "Live at the BBC" side two, track 12).
>>
>> I wonder if anyone agrees with me that Day Tripper is very similiar
>> to Roy Orbinson's "Pretty Woman." (To see what I mean, record these
>> songs "back-to-back" on audio tape and listen to them.) To me, the
>> chord shuffle and progression is done in the same ilk (it may NOT be
>> the exact same chords but it sounds similiar). Also, in Orbinsons song,
>> the drummer beats strong and steady. Doesn't Ringo do the same thing
>> on Day Tripper. I think John may have "nicked" a few ideas off of
>> Orbinson's song and changed the chord structure just enough to avoid
>> a lawsuit.
>>
>> Your comments on this one, please! Both pros and cons!
>>
>> John
>>
>> "...She's a big teaser, she took me half the way there!"
>> -- Day Tripper
>>>
>>> I think you're half right about "Day Tripper" & "Pretty Woman". I
>> would say first that "Pretty Woman" first sounds a bit like "Money" and
>> that "Day Tripper" is a combo of those two songs. I have the sheet
>> music and the guitar rift to all these songs are variations of each
>> other.
>>
>> I tend to think Roy Orbison copied "Money"; thus making "Pretty
>> Woman" and the Bealtes copied the previous two. Day Tripper was
>> supposed to be the Beatles response to the Rolling Stones
>> "Satisfaction".
Interesting how musicians draw on their heroes to help themselves
write a great song. I think sometimes when a composer writes something
such as John did in Come Together (aka Chuck Berry's YOU CAN'T CATCH
ME), could this have been the ulimate compliment by John to Berry
for all the great stuff Berry did in the 50s? Maybe.
Its interesting how "you've picked up" on where the inspiration
came for "Pretty Woman" visa-vie "Money." Not being a musician myself,
you seem to know about the riffs in the chords to these songs. Would you
happen to know if the song "I'm Down" has the same chord arrangement
as "Long Tall Sally?" Any other Beatle songs similar to other
rock versions from the past?
"Now somewhere in the black mountains of Dakota there lived a
young boy namrd Rocky Raccoon.."
-- Rocky Raccoon, Beatles White Album :)
PS: Thanks for the scoop on Day Tripper/Satisfaction. Never knew
about that one! :)
Mr. John James Whelan
Your right in saying that just about any song can be compared
to "some other song." I just found that the chord changes and the
approach to Day Tripper had some basic rudiments to Orbinson's "Pretty
Woman." I think John was clever enough to nick a few ideas and then
change it enough so that Orbinson couldn't touch him in a lawsuit.
I'm glad both songs are different enough as to avoid legal entanglements.
Concerning George's work, I'll let him speak on that subject:
"THIS SONG could well be...a reason to see..that without you,
there's no point to...THIS SONG!"
ENOUGH SAID!! har har! :P :)
M.D.Warren
an...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Mr. John James Whelan) wrote:
>
> We've known that John got his musical influences from different
> rock idols as he was growing up. Some of his music ended up sounding
> similar to those tunes he listened to. For example, Come Together
> was a direct rip-off of Chuck Berry's YOU CAN'T CATCH ME while Hey
> Bulldog is done in a similiar ilk to MONEY. Even the Ballad of John
> and Yoko had the guitar shuffle which was copied from LONESOME TEARS
> IN MY EYES (listen to "Live at the BBC" side two, track 12).
>
> I wonder if anyone agrees with me that Day Tripper is very similiar
> to Roy Orbinson's "Pretty Woman." (To see what I mean, record these
> songs "back-to-back" on audio tape and listen to them.) To me, the
> chord shuffle and progression is done in the same ilk (it may NOT be
> the exact same chords but it sounds similiar). Also, in Orbinsons song,
> the drummer beats strong and steady. Doesn't Ringo do the same thing
> on Day Tripper. I think John may have "nicked" a few ideas off of
> Orbinson's song and changed the chord structure just enough to avoid
> a lawsuit.
>
> Your comments on this one, please! Both pros and cons!
>
> John
>
> "...She's a big teaser, she took me half the way there!"
> -- Day Tripper
>
>
naww..never!...Oasis may do that..but never The beatles!!.
seriously...yes..Id agree...The beatles USED thier influences to create
good music...much the same way that Oasis do...end of story;)
Mike.
cluelessjoe
On Aug 06, 1996 19:34:27 in article <Re: ** DAY TRIPPER vs. PRETTY WOMAN
**>, 'sffo...@aol.com (SFForever)' wrote:
>The songs couldn't be more dissimilar, in rhythm, drum pattern, guitar
>lick, chords...you name it.
I couldn't agree with you more. I think FAAB and "Remember (Walking
In The Sand)" sound more similar than these two . . . and I thought THAT
was stretching it.
--
cluel...@usa.pipeline.com
8/7/96
cluelessjoe
> Mr. John James Whelan wrote:
>>
>> We've known that John got his musical influences from different
>> rock idols as he was growing up. Some of his music ended up sounding
>> similar to those tunes he listened to. For example, Come Together
>> was a direct rip-off of Chuck Berry's YOU CAN'T CATCH ME while Hey
>> Bulldog is done in a similiar ilk to MONEY.
There are similarities in style between "Money" and "Hey Bulldog",
but that doesn't even approach plagiarism. They are of complimentary
styles just as, say "Yesterday" and the Stones' "As Tears Go By". They are
not at all the same song, however.
As for "Come Together", I think this is entirely overblown. There's
a huge difference between a HOMAGE and a RIP-OFF. John was clearly playing
homage to Berry with the opening line. The resulting songs are much
different beyond the fact that you can find a little Chuck Berry in
virtually any rock song. The line John used was so obviously a Chuck Berry
quote that he would have to have been an idiot to think no one would
notice. John was no idiot. He quoted a Berry line as a springboard to the
rest of the song . . . a tribute rather than a rip-off. It would be
similar to a current artist releasing a new composition that included the
line "All you need is love, love is all you need". The homage to the
Beatle song would be obvious. The whole problem with "Come Together" was
Berry's overzealous publisher who had to get a piece of the Beatle pie.
--
cluel...@usa.pipeline.com
6/7/96
gom...@sirius.com
.
> >> Day Tripper was
> >> supposed to be the Beatles response to the Rolling Stones
> >> "Satisfaction".
now I remember the story going around that the Stones'
"Satisfaction" was based on "Pretty Woman", and that
the Stones wrote it while on tour with Roy Orbison.
.
perigon
Mr. John James Whelan wrote:
>
>
>
> Mr. John James Whelan (an...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) writes:
> > (per...@superlink.net) writes:
> >>
> >> We've known that John got his musical influences from different
> >> rock idols as he was growing up. Some of his music ended up sounding
> >> similar to those tunes he listened to. For example, Come Together
> >> was a direct rip-off of Chuck Berry's YOU CAN'T CATCH ME while Hey
> >> and Yoko had the guitar shuffle which was copied from LONESOME TEARS
> >> IN MY EYES (listen to "Live at the BBC" side two, track 12).
> >>
> >> I wonder if anyone agrees with me that Day Tripper is very similiar
> >> to Roy Orbinson's "Pretty Woman." (To see what I mean, record these
> >> songs "back-to-back" on audio tape and listen to them.) To me, the
> >> chord shuffle and progression is done in the same ilk (it may NOT be
> >> the exact same chords but it sounds similiar). Also, in Orbinsons song,
> >> the drummer beats strong and steady. Doesn't Ringo do the same thing
> >> on Day Tripper. I think John may have "nicked" a few ideas off of
> >> Orbinson's song and changed the chord structure just enough to avoid
> >> a lawsuit.
> >>
> >> Your comments on this one, please! Both pros and cons!
> >>
> >> John
> >>
> >> "...She's a big teaser, she took me half the way there!"
> >> -- Day Tripper
> >>>
> >> would say first that "Pretty Woman" first sounds a bit like "Money" and
> >> that "Day Tripper" is a combo of those two songs. I have the sheet
> >> music and the guitar rift to all these songs are variations of each
> >> other.
> >>
> >> I tend to think Roy Orbison copied "Money"; thus making "Pretty
> >> supposed to be the Beatles response to the Rolling Stones
> >> "Satisfaction".
>
> write a great song. I think sometimes when a composer writes something
> such as John did in Come Together (aka Chuck Berry's YOU CAN'T CATCH
> ME), could this have been the ulimate compliment by John to Berry
> for all the great stuff Berry did in the 50s? Maybe.
>
> Its interesting how "you've picked up" on where the inspiration
> came for "Pretty Woman" visa-vie "Money." Not being a musician myself,
> you seem to know about the riffs in the chords to these songs. Would you
> happen to know if the song "I'm Down" has the same chord arrangement
> as "Long Tall Sally?" Any other Beatle songs similar to other
> rock versions from the past?
>
> "Now somewhere in the black mountains of Dakota there lived a
> young boy namrd Rocky Raccoon.."
>
> -- Rocky Raccoon, Beatles White Album :)
>
>
> PS: Thanks for the scoop on Day Tripper/Satisfaction. Never knew
> about that one! :)
>
>
>
>
"I'm down" is very similar to "Long Tall Sally". As for other
Beatles songs that sound like other artist songs, you just opened
Pandora's Box. There are many examples and even a few solo. Go to your
local library and read Beatle bio-books or buy one in a bookstore. I
prefer the free option. One great book is the one about Lennon's Life
called obviously "Lennon A Life" or something to that nature. Some of
these books detail the inspiration or plagarism behind their songs.
perigon
Mr. John James Whelan
cluelessjoe (cluel...@usa.pipeline.com) writes:
>> Mr. John James Whelan wrote:
>>>
>>> We've known that John got his musical influences from different
>>> rock idols as he was growing up. Some of his music ended up sounding
>>> similar to those tunes he listened to. For example, Come Together
>>> was a direct rip-off of Chuck Berry's YOU CAN'T CATCH ME while Hey
>>> Bulldog is done in a similiar ilk to MONEY.
>
> John,
> There are similarities in style between "Money" and "Hey Bulldog",
> but that doesn't even approach plagiarism. They are of complimentary
> styles just as, say "Yesterday" and the Stones' "As Tears Go By". They are
> not at all the same song, however.
> As for "Come Together", I think this is entirely overblown. There's
> a huge difference between a HOMAGE and a RIP-OFF. John was clearly playing
> homage to Berry with the opening line. The resulting songs are much
> different beyond the fact that you can find a little Chuck Berry in
> virtually any rock song. The line John used was so obviously a Chuck Berry
> quote that he would have to have been an idiot to think no one would
> notice. John was no idiot. He quoted a Berry line as a springboard to the
> rest of the song . . . a tribute rather than a rip-off. It would be
> similar to a current artist releasing a new composition that included the
> line "All you need is love, love is all you need". The homage to the
> Beatle song would be obvious. The whole problem with "Come Together" was
> Berry's overzealous publisher who had to get a piece of the Beatle pie.
> --
>
> cluel...@usa.pipeline.com
>
> 6/7/96
>
Well, I agree with what your saying. But it amazes me when
you listen to these songs when they first come out and you don't
even realize they are spin-offs from other composers who have
written music. Like George's "My Sweet Lord." I would never have
known it was a spin-off of "He's So Fine." It's when you think
your "hero" has written a really cool song and then only later to find
out they're being sued over copyright problems annoys me. Another song
that comes to mind is John's "9th Dream." I don't know if you've heard
the album called "Pussycats" with Harry Nilson, but it was produced
by John Lennon. I have the album. The opening track is called:
"Many Rivers to Cross" not written by John or Harry, but another
composer...I hate to say this..but! The melodic tune on this song
is almost the same as "9th Dream" only John improved on the tune (as
he always does). This album was recorded the same time as John's
Walls and Bridges, so I think Lennon got "influenced" by "Many Rivers
to Cross" which he was producing on the album for Harry.
Best cuts off the "Pussycats" ablum for those interested:
1) Rock Around the Clock (Kieth Moon drums on this!)
2) Subtaranian Blues (a Dylan number)
3) Many Rivers to Cross
The rest of the album is just so-so in my books!
SFForever
" I just found that the chord changes and the
approach to Day Tripper had some basic rudiments to Orbinson's "Pretty
Woman." I think John was clever enough to nick a few ideas and then
change it enough so that Orbinson couldn't touch him in a lawsuit. "
Ridiculous. The chord progressions are nothing alike.
SFForever
"now I remember the story going around that the Stones'
"Satisfaction" was based on "Pretty Woman", and that
the Stones wrote it while on tour with Roy Orbison."
Whoever said that was musically ignorant. There is no similarity between
the songs. None.
Thomas Conlon
Almost ALL songs were influenced by another song or style.
An artist hears a song, likes it, and creates something
with the same kind of feel, yet the new creation is an
origianl piece of music.
This doesn't mean that John Lennon (or the Stones) sat
down and played Pretty Woman over and over again, all the
while cleverly and discreetly changing a chord here and
there to make it sound like an original song. It means the
composer was inspired to sit down and write something
(Day Tripper) that reminded them personally of the
influential song (Pretty Woman).
I see no substantial connection between PW and DT except
that they are both based on a guitar riff played throughout
each song. They are in different keys and the chord
progression is not at all the same.
IMO, the only way to see the true connection is to
understand fully the way Lennon's song writing techniques
worked. I think the only on who can fully understand this
was Lennon himself.
Barker
> Isn't it Paul who came up with the Day Tripper riff? John might
> have written the middle eight. John doesn't even play the guitar riff
> on the recording. You can hear him strumming chords in the
> background. He might have written all or most of the lyrics, tho.
John DID write the guitar riff, & all the lyrics, & all the verses, & the
chorus. (Paul sings the verses cuz it's more in his range). John's
strumming in the background cuz George played most of the 'lead' guitar
early on.
Mike
In article <4uj6dt$q...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
SFForever <sffo...@aol.com> wrote:
>"now I remember the story going around that the Stones'
>"Satisfaction" was based on "Pretty Woman", and that
>the Stones wrote it while on tour with Roy Orbison."
>
>Whoever said that was musically ignorant. There is no similarity between
>the songs. None.
>SFFo...@aol.com (Oceandig)
>
Well, I must say I don't consider myself musically ignorant in the slightest
:), but I've got to admit that Satisfaction, Daytripper and Pretty Woman do
work quite well together. As a Keyboard/Bass/Guitar player, along with a
friend [*] who is the opposite (Guitar/Bass/Kbd player) we can play a pretty
mean minutes long medley wandering through the following songs ....
Pretty Woman
Rebel Rebel
Satisfaction
Daytripper
Shakin All Over
.... and, played just right, it really does kick butt :) It's dead easy
to end up doing bits of one song alongside another. E.g. main riff from
Satisfaction over the arpeggio of SAO .... If in doubt we return to
Satisfaction and carry on :)
[*] Yes, that means we need to cheat. Usually Steve: Guitar, Me: Real Bass,
Keyboard: Drums programmed. (or Me: Keyboards, Keyboard Bass, Drums programmed)
--
Michael Brown (m...@pootle.demon.co.uk)
C++ and Lemming Consultant
SFForever
" It's dead easy
to end up doing bits of one song alongside another."
"Satisfaction"/"Day Tripper/"Pretty Woman"
Let's see...they are all in E, and both are in 4/4 time....they have
guitars, and are played by British rock groups....my God...you're
right...they must be made of wood!
Frank
Thomas Conlon <TOM...@worldnet.att.net> informed us:
>I think "What'd I Say" was written and recorded by Ray
>Charles sometime in the late fifties.
>Also, the Beatles RECORDED "What'd I Say" in June of 1961
>with vocalist Tony Sheridan. Therefore, the song pre-dates
>"Day Tripper" without a doubt.
>The only thing these riffs have in common is that they are
>both in E. Aside from this I can draw no real similarities
>between the two. The riff in "Day Tripper" was not
>*copied* from "What'd I Say" nor was it copied from
>"Satisfaction", "Pretty Woman", or "Money"....
>"Day Tripper" may have been INFLUENCED by some or all of
>these songs but it is completely an original piece of
>music..!
I've always thought that "Boys" sounded **exactly** like "What'd I
Say".
Roger Wiseman
In article <4vck7h$a...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Thomas Conlon <TOM...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I think "What'd I Say" was written and recorded by Ray
>Charles sometime in the late fifties.
Tom, I think it was released in July, 1959. One of my favorite RC tunes along
with "I can't stop loving you". His earlies recording were in a jazz vein.
When he went to Atlantic records he meshed earthy rhythms with aspects of
Black church music. He laid the foundations for '60's soul music, influencing
black or white singers/arrangers. In his ABC-Paramount period (60's) he
covered R&B, rock & roll, country & western, and contemporary pop.
>Also, the Beatles RECORDED "What'd I Say" in June of 1961
>with vocalist Tony Sheridan. Therefore, the song pre-dates
>"Day Tripper" without a doubt.
nod...
>The only thing these riffs have in common is that they are
>both in E. Aside from this I can draw no real similarities
>between the two. The riff in "Day Tripper" was not
>*copied* from "What'd I Say" nor was it copied from
>"Satisfaction", "Pretty Woman", or "Money"....
>"Day Tripper" may have been INFLUENCED by some or all of
>these songs but it is completely an original piece of
>music..!
That type of riff has been around for a long time..I think it was originally a
blues riff..I defer to OceanDig on that one.
--
cr...@ovnet.com (Crow(Roger Wiseman)) #(:)o]
Guitarist
__________________________________________
Jeet Kune Do/Kung Fu martial artist @)
__________________________________________
"Love is the answer..." John Lennon
Thomas Conlon
I think "What'd I Say" was written and recorded by Ray
Charles sometime in the late fifties.
Also, the Beatles RECORDED "What'd I Say" in June of 1961
with vocalist Tony Sheridan. Therefore, the song pre-dates
"Day Tripper" without a doubt.
The only thing these riffs have in common is that they are
Tom Robinson
I don't know if Day Tripper sounds anything like Pretty Woman, but I
recently bought John Mayall and the Blues Breakers, with Eric Clapton
(apparently referred to as "the Beano Album" in Blues circles, because
Clapton is reading a comic book called Beano in the cover picture), and
discovered the exact same opening riff to Day Tripper in a song called
"What'd I Say".
Now, this album is dated 1966, but the liner notes say the piece, written
by someone named Charles (Ray?? - I'm showing my ignorance here), is
"cobwebbed" but "injected with new life" here, suggesting it has a much
older genesis, and so likely pre-dates the Beatles piece. I've obviously
never heard the original, but one might conclude that the
Beatles did not invent the riff themselves.
Anybody know anything more about the riff?
*********************************************************************
Tom Robinson, Canadian Meteorological Centre, Dorval, Que
Tom.Ro...@ec.gc.ca
OCEAN DIG
" I'm showing my ignorance here), is
"cobwebbed" but "injected with new life" here, suggesting it has a much
older genesis, and so likely pre-dates the Beatles piece."
You are more than showing your ignorance if you think the riff to "What'd
I Say" sounds remotely like the riff to "Day Tripper." No offense, but
large doses of ear training are hereby prescribed...
OCEAN DIG.@aol.com
(T Hartman)(SFForever)
OCEAN DIG
"compare the composition "Boys" (which the Beatles covered but didn't
write) with "What'd I Say". There, my friends, is duplication that Xerox
would envy. "
You're confusing a particular form with a Xerox. Just as there are forms
in classical music, i.e. Sonata Allegro form in symphonies, there are
forms in rock, and "What'd I Say" has a similar form as "Boys". So does
"Everybody's Trying to Be My Baby." The songs are nothing alike.
OCEAN DIG.@aol.com
(T Hartman)(SFForever)
saki
In article <Pine.SGI.3.91.960820...@castor.cmc.doe.ca>,
Tom Robinson <afs...@cmc.doe.ca> wrote:
Re: Clapton in Mayall's "Bluesbreakers":
>Now, this album is dated 1966, but the liner notes say the piece, written
>by someone named Charles (Ray?? - I'm showing my ignorance here), is
>"cobwebbed" but "injected with new life" here, suggesting it has a much
>older genesis, and so likely pre-dates the Beatles piece. I've obviously
>never heard the original, but one might conclude that the
>Beatles did not invent the riff themselves.
It's interesting that Eric imports the "Day Tripper" riff into his
version of Ray Charles' immortal "What'd I Say" (a song the Fabs also
used to do live on stage), but bear in mind that "Day Tripper" was
recorded and released in autumn 1965; Mayall's LP with Eric was done
in mid-1966.
Also, the Fabs may have gotten the riff from a favorite song of
John's, Bobby Parker's 1962 obscurity "Watch Your Step".
--
"Well, all right, so I'm being foolish; well, all right,
let the people know...."
--------------------------------------------------------
sa...@evolution.bchs.uh.edu
David J. Coyle
The Beatles related song with the most obvious connection to "What'd I
Say" is "Some Other Guy" which was recorded by Richie Barrett a full three
years after the Ray Charles song. Same chord progression, same riffs.
|| DAVID J. COYLE | New E-Mail: dco...@bright.net ||
|| Chillicothe, OH | "Has a successor to the Beatles finally ||
|| "1796-1996" | been found? No, it's the Beatles themselves." ||
------------------------------------------------------------------------
cluelessjoe
On Aug 20, 1996 15:05:21 in article <Re: ** DAY TRIPPER vs. PRETTY WOMAN
**>, 'Thomas Conlon <TOM...@worldnet.att.net>' wrote:
>I think "What'd I Say" was written and recorded by Ray
>Charles sometime in the late fifties.
You are correct sir. I'm glad you aren't on this peculiar bandwagon
that tries to claim every Beatle song was the result of plagiarism.
"What'd I Say" (a CLASSIC track) has a hot riff played by Ray on electric
piano. It is much faster than "Day Tripper" and really sounds nothing like
it. If the plagiarism witch hunters want a real example of rip-off, they
should compare the composition "Boys" (which the Beatles covered but didn't
write) with "What'd I Say". There, my friends, is duplication that Xerox
would envy.
cluel...@usa.pipeline.com
8/20/96
Ross Clement
Tom Robinson (afs...@cmc.doe.ca) wrote:
: Now, this album is dated 1966, but the liner notes say the piece, written
: by someone named Charles (Ray?? - I'm showing my ignorance here), is
: "cobwebbed" but "injected with new life" here, suggesting it has a much
: older genesis, and so likely pre-dates the Beatles piece. I've obviously
: never heard the original, but one might conclude that the
: Beatles did not invent the riff themselves.
: Anybody know anything more about the riff?
I've heard/got the original and I've never thought that it sounded like
Day Tripper. Given my familiarity with the riff (long story), if it
is in the Ray Charles original it must be there in a very subtle form.
For those interested, there are several CDs out in the UK which bring
together 'Hits that inspired the Beatles'. IMHO it makes very interesting
listening, as well as making a good compilation of late 50s/early 60s
rock and roll.
Cheers,
Ross-c
saki
In article <Pine.OSF.3.93.960821...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu>,
David J. Coyle <dc33...@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> wrote:
>The Beatles related song with the most obvious connection to "What'd I
>Say" is "Some Other Guy" which was recorded by Richie Barrett a full three
>years after the Ray Charles song. Same chord progression, same riffs.
The body of the songs sound to me to be distinct; it's the intros that
appear similar, as does Bobby Parker's "Watch Your Step", one of the
four songs (along with Richie Barrett's "Some Other Guy") that John
brought to play on the air at WNEW one day in 1974.
"What's I Say" (1959), after its intro, seems to have influenced
Barrett Strong's "Money" (1960), which was also another of John's
favorites.
--
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"Well, I said it don't come easy; well, I sure know how it feels..."
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sa...@evolution.bchs.uh.edu
cluelessjoe
On Aug 21, 1996 00:11:06 in article <Re: ** DAY TRIPPER vs. PRETTY WOMAN
**>, 'ocea...@aol.com (OCEAN DIG)' wrote:
>You're confusing a particular form with a Xerox. Just as there are forms
>in classical music, i.e. Sonata Allegro form in symphonies, there are
>forms in rock, and "What'd I Say" has a similar form as "Boys". So does
>"Everybody's Trying to Be My Baby." The songs are nothing alike.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Yes, I see a
similarity in form between "What'd I Say" and "Everybody's Trying To Be My
Baby", but I see "Boys" as going far beyond form similarities. I may have
overstated it as a "Xerox" (they are not exactly the same song), but even
the differences point out similarities to me. For instance, one the
biggest differences between the songs is the distinctive "Bop-shoo-wha"
backing vocals we know and love on the chorus of "Boys" (not present on
"What'd I Say"). However, these vocals closely echo the riff Ray is
playing on the chorus of "What'd I Say". Yes, the melodies of the two
songs are not EXACTLY the same, but they are close enough. I would think
Dixon and Ferrell would have been ashamed to hand it to their publisher as
a completely original composition. At least Brian Wilson had the integrity
to give Chuck Berry a deserved composing credit on "Surfin' USA".
Anyway, I'm not one of those people who searches under every
rock-n-roll rock to find plagiarism. In fact, the only point I was making
in pointing out the similarities between "Boys" and "What'd I Say" is to
illustrate that other composers "borrow" far more blatantly than the
Beatles ever did. I just get tired of the endless threads that sprout like
weeds on RMB finding nonexistent plagiarism in Beatle compositions. Most
of these are laughable, such as the seed of this thread, "Day Tripper" vs
"Pretty Woman". Saying those two songs are the same is like saying the
Beatles and KISS are the same because they both had four members.
Given the deep pockets of the Beatles and the greed of publishers, it
doesn't surprise me that the Beatles have been the target of legal action
in the past. What does surprise me is how many people on RMB (presumably
fans) try to turn any similarity between a particular song and a Beatle
song into irrefutable evidence of evil gear-fab plagiarism. In my opinion,
this is particularly unjust when leveled at the Beatles. Given the wide
variety of musical styles the Beatles have attempted and the sheer number
of songs they have written (group and solo), it is astounding at how
original their compositions have consistently been. Unintentional
plagiarism is a risk any composer faces (ask George about "My Sweet Lord"),
but it is something the Beatles seem to have consciously fought. Exhibit A
on this would be Paul asking friends for weeks "who did this song" while
humming "Yesterday". He only continued on with the song when he was
satisfied he didn't subconsciously lift it from someone else.
"Borrowing" is a time-honored tradition in music, and particularly so
in rock. Transforming a portion of a riff is no big deal if the end result
is different. In such regard, the Beatles are guilty of borrowing as is
everyone else. In fact, if borrowing was a capital offense, possibly Chuck
Berry would be the only rocker with a stay of execution (and I'm sure some
R & B greats would send him to the gallows if they could).
--
cluel...@usa.pipeline.com
8/20/96
Scott Varengo
have worked, and indeed should work in Rock 'n' Roll. How could the
Beatles, (or any other group or single artist), not reflect the music
that inspired them? This isn't plagarism, it's flattery.
Roy Orbison and George Harrison apparently didn't feel too much
conflict, or if so they didn't show it during their brief stint as two
of the Travelling Willburys.
These guys weren't concerned about the similarities in each others
music. They were concerned about turning out rock 'n' roll. End of
story.
Richard
reset
Just an addition to the thread - a funk - dance song by the Sylvers in
the fabulous 70's opened with a riff that sounds strikingly similar to
"Day Tripper". Anyone remember that one? It was called "Boogie Fever".
Tom Robinson
On Wed, 21 Aug 1996, saki wrote:
> Re: Clapton in Mayall's "Bluesbreakers":
>
> It's interesting that Eric imports the "Day Tripper" riff into his
> version of Ray Charles' immortal "What'd I Say" (a song the Fabs also
> used to do live on stage), but bear in mind that "Day Tripper" was
> recorded and released in autumn 1965; Mayall's LP with Eric was done
> in mid-1966.
Now, here is the kind of hard information I was looking for. I think I
was not clear enough in my first post, and ended up being misunderstood.
I had forgotten about the Beatles/Sheridan cover of What'd I Say. Quite
obviously, this piece has nothing to do with Day Tripper (though it is
reminiscent of Boys in places).
The Mayall/Clapton version on the other hand has a minute and a half's
worth of drum solo, which ends with Clapton launching into a guitar riff
which is not just in the same key, but is in fact, note for note, the
opening riff of Day Tripper. Having listened to Beatles/Sheridan, I
presumed that the riff was not from the original, but rather was a
mid-60's concoction. Hence I wondered who had copied who.
I might add that I am completely non-judgemental in that as well. Given
the close friendship between Harrison and Clapton, I don't think it
mattered a damn to them that one took it from the other. As a Beatle fan
I find it interesting that it was Clapton who did the borrowing.
And by the way thanks for answering my main question.
> Also, the Fabs may have gotten the riff from a favorite song of
> John's, Bobby Parker's 1962 obscurity "Watch Your Step".
>
Also interesting.
*********************************************************************
Tom Robinson, Canadian Meteorological Centre, Dorval, Que
ricka
On Aug 24, 1996 01:24:07 in article <Re: ** DAY TRIPPER vs. WHAT'D I
SAY**>, 'Tom Robinson <afs...@cmc.doe.ca>' wrote:
>>I had forgotten about the Beatles/Sheridan cover of What'd I Say. Quite
Not exactly correct.
On September 28, 1974, John appeared on WNEW-FM (102.7 in NYC) as a guest
DJ and brought with him several rock oldies records which he used
throughout the program to illustrate where much of "today's" (1960-70s,
that is) rock riffs came from. Among the records he used were "What'd I
Say", Watch Your Step" and "Some Other Guy". After playing "What'd I Say"
(which he described as the first recorded electric piano he or anyone he
knew had ever heard and the sound of which he and everyone tried to
duplicate on electric guitar) he played "Day Tripper". When the records
were finished, he didn't say it outright but he said enough to make an
unmistakable implication that "Day Tripper" was his attempt to write a
Beatles hit single based on "What'd I Say". Also of interest from the show
is the use of the lead-in from "Some Other Guy" on "Insant Karma" and the
note-for-note use of the riff from "Watch Your Step" on the Allman
Brothers' "No Way Out".
--
ri...@pipeline.com
SFForever
"When the records
were finished, he didn't say it outright but he said enough to make an
unmistakable implication that "Day Tripper" was his attempt to write a
Beatles hit single based on "What'd I Say"."
That means he was inspired to write a riff-based rock song, period, not
that the two songs have anything in common more than that. To argue about
this is ridiculous, unless you have a tin ear. The songs are nothing
alike, in harmonic, melodic, or rhythmic structure.
Mr. John James Whelan
Not meaning to throw more "grease" on the fire, but...a track called
BABY, PLEASE DON'T GO by the Animals is a clone of "WHAT I'D SAY."
Seems as though rock stars can't resist nicking ideas from songs!!
John
Stephen
In article <4vuf83$s...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>,
Mr. John James Whelan <an...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
> Not meaning to throw more "grease" on the fire, but...a track called
> BABY, PLEASE DON'T GO by the Animals is a clone of "WHAT I'D SAY."
> Seems as though rock stars can't resist nicking ideas from songs!!
>
> John
>
I read somewhere that a few of Ray Charles' hits from the '50s were
really old gospel songs which Charles put new lyrics to. So Ray Charles
was not above 'nicking' a few ideas himself!
- Steve Pipkin
Tom Robinson
On 27 Aug 1996, Mr. John James Whelan wrote:
> Not meaning to throw more "grease" on the fire, but...a track called
> BABY, PLEASE DON'T GO by the Animals is a clone of "WHAT I'D SAY."
> Seems as though rock stars can't resist nicking ideas from songs!!
>
> John
"Nicking" is a pejorative term for what is probably considered in many
quarters a legitimate practice. At the least I have read of it often
enough to think it so. I believe it was Anthony Scaduto, in his excellent
biography of Bob Dylan, who told of Woody Guthrie's practice of using old
tunes, ideas etc, and re-working them into new songs. The practice is
certainly evident in the folk music of that whole gang of early 60's folk
singers, where in some cases new lyrics are simply added to old tunes,
and sung in identical fashion.
When you think about it though, what is ever completely original?
Everything, be it music, art, philosophy, science etc, are all built on
previous efforts. In the specific case of Mayall/Clapton's What'd I Say,
it makes for a fun piece of music to have the riff from Day Tripper
suddenly appear in the song. It is one of the reasons the liner notes
state that the group breathes new life into the song. The Beatles were
probably flattered. Ray Charles too.
Tom
Nick Dastoor
In article <4vuf83$s...@freenet-news.carleton.ca>, an...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
says...
> Not meaning to throw more "grease" on the fire, but...a track called
> BABY, PLEASE DON'T GO by the Animals is a clone of "WHAT I'D SAY."
> Seems as though rock stars can't resist nicking ideas from songs!!
Remember that Shakepeare wasn't too bothered about coming up with original
stories, and he's hardly a lightweight in the literary canon....
Was it Oscar Wilde who said "Talent borrows, Genius Steals"?
Nick
Brett Pasternack
Quoting an569 to All re: Re: ** DAY TRIPPER vs. WHAT'D I SAY**an>From:
an...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Mr. John James Whelan)
an>Subject: Re: ** DAY TRIPPER vs. WHAT'D I SAY**
an>SFForever (sffo...@aol.com) writes:
> "When the records
> were finished, he didn't say it outright but he said enough to make a
> unmistakable implication that "Day Tripper" was his attempt to write
> Beatles hit single based on "What'd I Say"."
>
> That means he was inspired to write a riff-based rock song, period, n
> that the two songs have anything in common more than that. To argue a
> this is ridiculous, unless you have a tin ear. The songs are nothing
> alike, in harmonic, melodic, or rhythmic structure.
an> Not meaning to throw more "grease" on the fire, but...a track calle
an> BABY, PLEASE DON'T GO by the Animals is a clone of "WHAT I'D SAY."
an> Seems as though rock stars can't resist nicking ideas from songs!!
"Baby Please Don't Go" is a classic blues written by Joe Williams. I'm not
sure when it came out, but I'd bet it predates "What'd I Say".
Not that I buy that they're all that similar.
* Wave Rider 1.20 [NR] *
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