What's so bad about Jeff Lynne anyway?
Amanda Hill
like them. What's the big deal?
I haven't gotten Brainwashed yet. Asked Santa. Hope I was good enough this
year. Will get back to you on that.
But what people are saying confuses me. Stuff like "oh, don't worry, it
doesn't sound like Jeff Lynne!" What's wrong with sounding like Jeff Lynne?
Just wondering.
Frome Me To You
There's nothing wrong with sounding like Jeff Lynne! He is one of the world's
greatest writer - composer - producers in the world today.
NiteDawg
souless repetetive ching ching downstrokes of extremely basic rhythm
guitar.......It all reminds me of his ELO megahit "Don't bring me
down".....Sorry, it does......
Richardo
"Amanda Hill" <amand...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:asogs5$3jn$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
big easy
"Amanda Hill" <amand...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:asogs5$3jn$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
I
> like them. What's the big deal?
he sucks.
his overbearing production sound leads to homogonisation of the artists he
produces.
plus his sound, while being "radio friendly", wears very thin after about
six listens.
Richardo
better
"big easy" <wecant...@becauseiloveyoutoomuchbaby.com> wrote in message
news:asonl5$h4j$0...@pita.alt.net...
Mister Charlie
"Amanda Hill" <amand...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:asogs5$3jn$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
Nothing. If you ARE Jeff Lynne.
>
>
Mister Charlie
"Richardo" <rich....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:asonuq$od$1...@venus.btinternet.com...
> sorry big e, Brainwashed is well passed my six listens and is still
getting
> better
That's because it's already been widely said in here that Brainwashed
was not the typical Lynne ham fisted production, and that he restrained
himself nicely.
Richardo
"Mister Charlie" <smoker...@myway.com> wrote in message
news:asora0$t5kb8$1...@ID-63206.news.dfncis.de...
big easy
> But Mr. C. it is still a JL production, and credit to him for a great job.
no, it's great *music*.
the fact that lynne kept his awfulness to a minimun is a plus, but the music
is george's, and that's what makes it great.
andy749
I don't quite understand why the anti-Lynne stuff seems SO strong...I
mean I could understand some, but my gosh , it's almost as if people
love to hate him or something...and ELO. I happen to like them meself.
I never could understand all the cat-haters either,you know ya see those
bumper stickers about the only good cat is a dead cat...I never had any
trouble with cats...it was always dogs bitin' me...it's kinda the same
thing with Lynne...I don't quite get it...why there's SO much dislike?
Richardo
people. Lets not go there, but he did a good job of those also.
"andy749" <and...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17816-3D...@storefull-2314.public.lawson.webtv.net...
BHein5468469
some of their sound.
"andy749" <and...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17816-3D...@storefull-2314.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Pjschindel
overcompressed drum sounds Jeff Lynne productions are known for. Plus it'd
have been nice if he, as co-producer, would have persuaded Paul to play more
intersting bass lines; imo, Paul's bass on these songs is extremely boring,
some of the worst he's recorded.
Peter
http://www.soundclick.com/peterschindelman
http://www.demo-exchange.com/dx.html
http://www.mp3.com/peterschindelman
Amanda Hill
"big easy" <wecant...@becauseiloveyoutoomuchbaby.com> wrote in message
news:asonl5$h4j$0...@pita.alt.net...
>
Wow, really?
I'm not too crazy about ELO, actually. Well, not the two or three songs I
know are by them that I hear on the radio. I mean, I don't hate them, but am
also not compelled to buy any albums for them.
However, I've listened to all my Lynne-produced CDs way more times than six
times over and I'm not sick of them yet. Guess I have bad taste.
Mister Charlie
> But Mr. C. it is still a JL production, and credit to him for a great
job.
For Brainwashed? I guess, I haven't heard it. For everything else
except Wilbury's and ELO? No, no he needn't be credited.
Mister Charlie
> IMO he was an honorary Beatle on the last 2 singles and that gets to
some
> people. Lets not go there, but he did a good job of those also.
A perfect example of his terrible 'sound' glomming in on a production.
That damned drum, from the very first beat of FAAB. Real Love was
better, but his cutting in and out of John's cassette vocals is so
obvious it's, like, why clean the tape up in the first place? I'm sure
it was difficult, and I give him credit for what he did do, but John's
voice sounds like a ghost (on FFAB primarily) while the others sound
totally real. Surely he could have tweaked that some.
Mister Charlie
"andy749" <and...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:17816-3D...@storefull-2314.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Hey, I like ELO's hits. And I have nothing personal against Lynne.
Except for 20+ years he has used the same rockabilly sound along with
the same crappy drum sound that sticks out like a sore thumb when it
shouldn't. Surely one can understand the critique? He smothers other
artists with his 'sound'. Great producer for himself (Armchair Theatre)
and actually I like the job he did on Orbison's You Got It, but then
that was just another Wilbury song when ya get down to it.
>
Amanda Hill
> I never could understand all the cat-haters either,you know ya see those
> bumper stickers about the only good cat is a dead cat...I never had any
> trouble with cats...it was always dogs bitin' me...
Oooh, I HATE cat-haters! Those people who say they want to run em over every
time they see one, I'd like to run some of them over! You've never heard of
anyone mauled to death by a pack of attack cats have you?
But back on topic...
> it's kinda the same
> thing with Lynne...I don't quite get it...why there's SO much dislike?
I know not everybody has to like everything I like, but Lynne has been
associated with some of my most favorite artists, and I suspected there
should be a good amount of people here who have similar tastes to me (not
everyone, I know, but no doubt more than say, a rap newsgroup).
But I just keep hearing people going on and on about how much he sucks.
<shrug>
Amanda Hill
> Lynne?
> >
> > Just wondering.
>
> Nothing. If you ARE Jeff Lynne.
So what are you suggesting here?
Strabbo
> I have some albums he produced. Tom Petty stuff, Flaming Pie, Cloud
> Nine. I like them. What's the big deal?
It's his 'sound'. Very noticeable on the snare drum and background vocals,
as well as the guitar sounds. It's not that it's a horrible thing, but it's
a 'stamp', and it's on just about everything he's done.
The sound has a lot of appeal to a lot of people, and he's certainly worked
on some great songs, but if you want a prime example of how his sound
compares to a more natural (invisible) production style, listen to Tom
Petty's "Wildflowers" album (non-Lynne), then listen to the style on "Full
Moon Fever".
The two Beatles songs he did suffered from those same sounds, and, IMO,
that took away from their potential. Jeff was a poor choice for those
tunes.
> I haven't gotten Brainwashed yet. Asked Santa. Hope I was good enough
> this year. Will get back to you on that.
There are certain Lynne-tweaks you can hear on that disc, but when it comes
down to the music, you probably won't be disappointed.
> But what people are saying confuses me. Stuff like "oh, don't worry,
> it doesn't sound like Jeff Lynne!" What's wrong with sounding like
> Jeff Lynne?
Nothing, if it's a Jeff Lynne disc, or an ELO disc. But George wanted it to
sound raw and rough, and that (IMO) should have been respected.
Marty
Rich Forman
Know what you mean, that tune does somewhat tarnish the whole memory
of the group's otherwise pleasant and interesting catalog of hits.
richforman
Mister Charlie
It's a mistake for him to produce anyone else but himself.
>
>
David P Chabot
the songs... and I very much DON'T care for the production... I can't put my
finger on the problem I have with the sound... just over produced... sort of
cookie cutter... and there's just too much! It all sounds the same.
NOW... I do like the WILBURYS recordings... as Mr. Charlie points out, the
sound "works" for that recording... I also love what Lynn did with
BRAINWASHED... I hear Lynn in the production but he restrained himself...
it's very subtle... I think this is because as stated earlier, George wanted
these to sound like demos... although to my ears they do not... they are
just simple... no fat! I think that in this case J Lynn did an admirable
job... I also like his FREE AS A BIRD... it's the only one we got... the
production works for me...IMHO.
--
Peace...Dave www.Shemakhan.com
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before
breakfast."
Lewis Carroll
R.A.G. Seely
> But I just keep hearing people going on and on about how much he sucks.
Like what you like - personally I rather like the Wilbury recordings,
especially the first, Cloud 9, FAAB and RL, Flaming Pie, and Brainwashed -
and if they are representative of his "sound" then he's got nothing to be
ashamed of ... George liked him too, after all.
-= rags =-
--
To reply by email, use "@" not "__A@T__"
<rags AT math . mcgill . ca>
<http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags>
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
Frome Me To You
>it's kinda the same
>thing with Lynne...I don't quite get it...why there's SO much dislike?
There was a time long ago when John left the business, and Jeff took up
musically where John left off, and a lot of people began to think, listening to
the ELO albums that were coming out, that they perhaps liked Jeff Lynne's ELO
BETTER than The Beatles, which, of course, horrified their sensibilities,
causing them to not only NEVER think such a thing again, but to also start
professing their hatred of the guy and his musical productions.
What was really funny was when even The Beatles George, Paul, and Ringo
recognized Jeff genius and started using him themselves! Ha!
andy749
>Hey, I like ELO's hits. And I have nothing
>personal against Lynne. Except for 20+ years
>he has used the same rockabilly sound along
>with the same crappy drum sound that sticks
>out like a sore thumb when it shouldn't. Surely
>one can understand the critique?
I somewhat understand what you mean about the "ELO sound"...it doesn't
bother me. I don't really hear it that much, not as much as some
complain about, on others' stuff he's produced.
The stuff he did with Tom Petty is some of my fave music by him. I don't
hear it at all on Flaming Pie. He managed to get a wonderful album out
of George(Cloud 9)...I think maybe his best.I hear quite a little bit of
negative stuff about him... alot of it in this ng. Surprises me a
little.
I own the ELO box set...I think it's great! :)
When Roy Wood wants you to be in his band the Move,you gotta be good !
Strabbo
2312.public.lawson.webtv.net:
> The stuff he did with Tom Petty is some of my fave music by him.
Funny how songs like "Free Fallin'" never really went off the radio. It
seemed to phase right from modern rock into classic rock. I think Jeff's
production on those two albums (Full Moon Fever and Great Wide Open) seemed
to suit the songs quite nicely.
> I don't
> hear it at all on Flaming Pie.
He seems to have altered his style for that album. The production is
surprisingly non-intrusive for Lynne.
> He managed to get a wonderful album out
> of George(Cloud 9)...I think maybe his best.
Y'see, that album, as much as I love some of the songs on it, sounds very
80's to me. I know, I know, it was the 80's... but it just sounds dated.
Just my opinion, of course.
> I hear quite a little bit of
> negative stuff about him... alot of it in this ng. Surprises me a
> little.
It was FAAB and RL that got a lot of folks in this ng ticked, I think.
That's what pushed me over the edge. I dreaded the snare sound he might
have used, and it slapped me twice in the face the first time I heard that
tune.
Marty
Strabbo
news:20021206184915...@mb-cc.aol.com:
> There was a time long ago when John left the business, and Jeff
> took up
> musically where John left off, and a lot of people began to think,
> listening to the ELO albums that were coming out, that they perhaps
> liked Jeff Lynne's ELO BETTER than The Beatles, which, of course,
> horrified their sensibilities, causing them to not only NEVER think
> such a thing again, but to also start professing their hatred of the
> guy and his musical productions.
LOL!
Yep, it was my sensibilities that swayed me.
> What was really funny was when even The Beatles George, Paul, and
> Ringo
> recognized Jeff genius and started using him themselves! Ha!
Well, they had done a lot of drugs over the years....
Marty
Mister Charlie
"Frome Me To You" <alla...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021206184915...@mb-cc.aol.com...
Pure bullshit and balderdash. Or is this supposed to be humor?
The guy has made some good records, he's made some shit records. I
suppose it all washes out in the end.
>
J C
>>I like "Free As A Bird" and "Real Love" but they have the typical dull
and overcompressed drum sounds Jeff Lynne productions are known for.
Plus it'd have been nice if he, as co-producer, would have persuaded
Paul to play more intersting bass lines; imo, Paul's bass on these songs
is extremely boring, some of the worst he's recorded.
Peter<<
FAAB is a very simple song. Had Paul added much more to it than he
did..he would have over-played. Did people expect the bass line to
sound like "Dear
Prudence'?
Lord FarkWar
wrote:
I love the bass part and sound in FAAB, particularly the low C on the
first beat of the middle eight. The drums, especially the cymbals,
are the epitome of the "Ringo" sound, which is hardly surprising. The
coda, however, is an unfortunate add-on; it's sounds like a Beatles
cover band, and not a very good one at that.. I remember thinking
when I first heard the song: "ah, why did they have to go and do that
for?" but what the heck. Great song, great production, great
performances.
We can only imagine what George Martin would have produced.
--
Turned out nice again!
Piss off, yer soft git!
Stanneverfalls
J C
far...@farkwar.net wrote:
No producer could have fixed that song
any better than Lynne. The other 3 were
playing to a very cheap cassette recording. Martin, may have not been so
foolish to Have Paul's vocal Blaring..in comparison to Lennon's.
Mister Charlie
"J C" <music...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23817-3D...@storefull-2274.public.lawson.webtv.net...
Pure speculation.
>
>
>
Damien Spanjer
> George wanted [Brainwashed] to sound raw and rough
How do you know this? Did you speak to him yourself? Or are you, like
the rest of us, going by what we've read in the media:- a few quotes
(often taken out of context as media often does) that you have
filtered through your own perception of how things should be.
George has always had an acute sense of irony, and if Marty is
American, I guess we can forgive him for missing the irony. It's not
exactly part of the culture.
George has always been cynical about the media, and he read all the
whining from Beatles purists in music mags about Jeff Lynne making
'Cloud 9' and the anthology tracks sound like ELO.
When asked before his death about Jeff working on his new album,
George said "No, I got sick of him making ELO records out of my
songs". How obvious does it need to be that George was poking fun at
the people who have said that stuff. If he literally *meant* what he
said, as some dimwitted Beatles purists still believe even to this
day, then clearly he would have gotten Eric Clapton to produce the
album, or someone else. It's not as if Jeff was his only friend who
knew how to drive a recording studio.
As for George's wishes about the album not being "posh", Dhani has
since qualified that as meaning "not re-recorded by session musicians
and overpolished". No self-respecting musician would want pure demos
to be released as an album (otherwise they'd do bootlegging
themselves!) and no record company would release them.
Jeff, like George, was taking the piss out of all the people who think
his production style, simple as it is these days, is somehow
"overblown" or "posh". There is nothing posh about "Brainwashed" at
all. It's a very honest album. Once again though, the Beatles purists
in the media have taken Jeff's quote out of context, and have used it
against him and against the best album released this year.
Does "Brainwashed" sound like ELO? No way! Jeff doesn't even sound
like ELO anymore, and ELO fans blame that (rightly) on George, since
the moment they started working together, Jeff's sound changed
forever.
Does "Brainwashed" sound like Cloud 9? Yes, ofcourse some tracks do.
"Vatican P2 Blues" is an outtake from those same sessions, so what do
you expect?
Does "Brainwashed" sound like the Wilburys? Perhaps, or do the
Wilburys sound like George? I guess that's a matter of perspective.
Either way, it's a circular argument.
Perhaps Marty you should actually *listen* to the album before
declaring that George's wishes were ignored. I think you'll find that
you are greatly mistaken.
Damien Spanjer
Sydney, Australia
David P Chabot
>How do you know this? Did you speak to him yourself? Or are you, like
>the rest of us, going by what we've read in the media:- a few quotes
>(often taken out of context as media often does) that you have
>filtered through your own perception of how things should be.
Jeff Lynn actually states that on the bonus DVD that comes with the deluxe
BRAINWASHED... he even apologizes to George...
David P Chabot
>to be released as an album (otherwise they'd do bootlegging
>themselves!) and no record company would release them.
Tell that to Pete Townshend or Andy Partridge...!
Chris Brown
"Damien Spanjer" <nu...@jeff-lynne.net> wrote in message
news:f4dca46e.02120...@posting.google.com...
> American, I guess we can forgive him for missing the irony. It's not
And presumably if he was German you could forgive him for being ruthlessly
efficient, and if he was black you could forgive him for being a cannibal.
I believe he's actually Canadian (sorry if I'm wrong, Marty) so I guess that
means he's a policeman on a horse eating maple syrup, right?
> exactly part of the culture.
I know. It's such a shame they have to import The Simpsons, Frasier, Randy
Newman and the Onion. ;-)
> George has always been cynical about the media, and he read all
This is true.
> whining from Beatles purists in music mags about Jeff Lynne making
> 'Cloud 9' and the anthology tracks sound like ELO.
Did he?
I have to say that he didn't seem the sort of guy to spend a lot of time
reading his own reviews. But I wouldn't know, of course.
> When asked before his death about Jeff working on his new album,
> George said "No, I got sick of him making ELO records out of my
> songs". How obvious does it need to be that George was poking fun at
> the people who have said that stuff. If he literally *meant* what he
I can't really argue with that.
> said, as some dimwitted Beatles purists still believe even to this
> day, then clearly he would have gotten Eric Clapton to produce the
Um... Eric Clapton? He's not exactly Liam Watson is he?
> album, or someone else. It's not as if Jeff was his only friend who
> knew how to drive a recording studio.
All this is true, I think. Whilst it seems likely to me that he chose to
work with Jeff Lynne for sentimental as well as musical reasons, he must
have known what he was going to get.
> As for George's wishes about the album not being "posh", Dhani has
> since qualified that as meaning "not re-recorded by session musicians
> and overpolished". No self-respecting musician would want pure
Hmm. I've seen some quotes where Jeff Lynne seems to admit that he's
produced the record slightly more heavily than he thinks George intended.
But I'm guessing that as George was prepared for it not to be completed in
his lifetime, he must have directed Lynne to use his own skill and judgment
to finish it as he saw fit.
>demos
> to be released as an album (otherwise they'd do bootlegging
> themselves!) and no record company would release them.
I think that with someone as big as George Harrison, it's very easy to
imagine record companies wanting to release his demos. It isn't uncommon at
all for demo tracks to end up appearing on albums because they seem
impossible to improve upon.
> Jeff, like George, was taking the piss out of all the people who think
> his production style, simple as it is these days, is somehow
> "overblown" or "posh". There is nothing posh about "Brainwashed" at
> all. It's a very honest album. Once again though, the Beatles purists
I don't quite understand what "honest" means in this context.
> in the media have taken Jeff's quote out of context, and have used it
> against him and against the best album released this year.
But Jeff Lynne didn't produce Highly Evolved! ;-)
> Does "Brainwashed" sound like ELO? No way! Jeff doesn't even
I have heard things that sound less like ELO. But it's no pastiche.
>sound
>
> Does "Brainwashed" sound like Cloud 9? Yes, ofcourse some tracks do.
> "Vatican P2 Blues" is an outtake from those same sessions, so what do
> you expect?
I think this may be the point. There's a very distinct Jeff
Lynne-as-producer sound which you can hear on almost everything he does with
other artists. I think it's understandable, then, that people who don't like
that sound are disappointed when they hear his name attached to a project.
Just for the record, I don't much like his sound myself - it always sounds
sort of airless to me. But that's by the by.
Chris
Mister Charlie
"Damien Spanjer" <nu...@jeff-lynne.net> wrote in message
news:f4dca46e.02120...@posting.google.com...
About ANYthing.
J C
No producer could have fixed that song
any better than Lynne. The other 3 were
playing to a very cheap cassette recording. Martin, may have not been so
foolish to Have Paul's vocal Blaring..in comparison to Lennon's.
>>Pure speculation.<<
Pure speculation, that Martin could have done a better job too.
Mister Charlie
Ah, yes, but that would have been a correct speculation.
>
Ehtue
>> But Mr. C. it is still a JL production, and credit to him for a great
>> job.
>
> no, it's great *music*.
>
> the fact that lynne kept his awfulness to a minimun is a plus, but the
> music is george's, and that's what makes it great.
After quite a few listens now, I find this one to be one of my least
favorite GH CDs. Part of it is due to the Horse to Water voice on several
tracks, but in overview, I think it's due to the lack of "Georgeness" to
the songs. I don't know squat about music structure, so I can't explain it,
but typically his songs in previous albums always had a Georgie quirk about
them... they went in a direction that you weren't expecting the first time.
All too often the direction change was similar, song to song, so that added
a touch of boredom to listening to an entire CD, but it also added a unique
quality that made it HIS music and the CD a whole rather than just a sum of
parts.
Whatever it is I'm trying to say, I find it missing in Brainwashed.
-Ehtue
Mister Charlie
"Ehtue" <eh...@aa.com> wrote in message
news:bsvI9.277300$1O2.18525@sccrnsc04...
when I get mine, tho I have so little interest in solo Beatle stuff that
it would have to be *really* good to keep my interest (I never listen to
Run Devil Run or Driving Rain, nor do I have any desire to...and Flaming
Pie had nothing for me).
Still I'm surprised as everywhere the acclaim is quite high. Not to
diss *your* ears, obviously it's not going to appeal to everyone.
Damien Spanjer
> There is NOTHING but your interpretation to suggest George was joking.
> About ANYthing.
Well I'd be interested in know how you "interpret" George's telling
the media that no, Jeff wasn't working on the album because he didn't
want it to sound like ELO, all the while he was actually working with
Jeff on and off for a number of years on tracks for the album.
Yes, it's gotta be my interpretation. Jeff didn't even produce
"Brainwashed". It's all in my mind. :-p
DS
Damien Spanjer
but in most cases, the tracks are already released in their proper
form. Our own Beatles did it on Anthology. It's a totally different
scenario to releasing brand new songs purely and exclusively in demo
form, which in the context of "Brainwashed", is clearly what I was
referring to.
D
Damien Spanjer
> Jeff Lynn actually states that on the bonus DVD that comes with the deluxe
> BRAINWASHED... he even apologizes to George...
Did it ever occur to you that his saying that was just a publicity
stunt to stir up a bit of controversy to get the album noticed?
I'm convinced it's part of the running in-joke between Jeff and George
about the purists. They had plenty of in-jokes like that. Hell, the
Wilburys were even named after one such in-joke!
D
Mister Charlie
began on it (which I think is what happened) then it is open to
interpretation. If it was said afterwards then yes, you'd have a case.
Mister Charlie
Kind defeats the purpose, especially as no one else seems to know what
the joke IS.
Damien Spanjer
> And presumably if he was German you could forgive him for being ruthlessly
> efficient, and if he was black you could forgive him for being a cannibal.
Remind me to stay away from black Germans then. ;-)
> I believe he's actually Canadian (sorry if I'm wrong, Marty) so I guess that
> means he's a policeman on a horse eating maple syrup, right?
Hmmmmmmmm.... maple syrup.....
> I know. It's such a shame they have to import The Simpsons, Frasier, Randy
> Newman and the Onion. ;-)
Naturally, to every rule there's at least one exception, and you've
certinaly highlighted them here. I was referring more to the more
subtle, day to day irony that most of the Americans I know personally
seem to miss. It's just a type of humour more prevalent in Britain and
Australia.
> I have to say that he didn't seem the sort of guy to spend a lot of time
> reading his own reviews. But I wouldn't know, of course.
Musicians are music lovers. They buy music magazines. If their own
product is reviewed within the pages, why wouldn't they read it?
Musicians are also normal people who buy newspapers for the news.
Within those pages, some music reviews are said to be found. If
something I'd released had been reviewed, ofcourse I'd read it.
Celebrities don't live in bubbles ya know. They read and watch the
same media, eat the same food, breathe the same air, yadda yadda
yadda...
> All this is true, I think. Whilst it seems likely to me that he chose to
> work with Jeff Lynne for sentimental as well as musical reasons, he must
> have known what he was going to get.
Exactly. He knew what Jeff's style was like, and he literally chose
that style by choosing Jeff Lynne. Whether people here agree with his
choice is not the issue here. All I'm trying to explain is that Jeff
can't be accused of dishonouring George's wishes. It simply ain't
true, and is little more than slanderous nonsense.
> Hmm. I've seen some quotes where Jeff Lynne seems to admit that he's
> produced the record slightly more heavily than he thinks George intended.
I've covered this more in another post.
> But I'm guessing that as George was prepared for it not to be completed in
> his lifetime, he must have directed Lynne to use his own skill and judgment
> to finish it as he saw fit.
It was more involved than that. Apparently George had left very
specific instructions about how the album should sound. When you
listen to some of the stuff George did without Jeff immediately
before, and after Cloud 9, it's not hard to hear why he chose Jeff's
sound over someone else's. It's the closest to his own (listen to
"That's The Way It Goes" or "Poor Little Girl" and you'll hear what I
mean).
> I think that with someone as big as George Harrison, it's very easy to
> imagine record companies wanting to release his demos. It isn't uncommon at
> all for demo tracks to end up appearing on albums because they seem
> impossible to improve upon.
Yes, that's true, and I reckon a CD of George just playing the uke and
singing would be a beautiful thing. Trouble is, it would have very
limited appeal, and wouldn't get the attention that "Brainwashed" is
now. It's a shame, I know, but it's something we can't change.
> I don't quite understand what "honest" means in this context.
I meant it in the context that it's just George, a few standard
instruments nicely played, bit of slide, nothing too fancy. It's
George playing fom the heart.
> I think this may be the point. There's a very distinct Jeff
> Lynne-as-producer sound which you can hear on almost everything he does with
> other artists. I think it's understandable, then, that people who don't like
> that sound are disappointed when they hear his name attached to a project.
Absolutely, and like I said above, that's quite okay if you don't like
the sound. I still find it a bit baffling since Jeff's sound was so
heavily influenced by George in later years (the whole circular logic
thing) but again, I'm talking about those who accuse Jeff of
dishonouring George's wishes, not his production style per se.
> Just for the record, I don't much like his sound myself - it always sounds
> sort of airless to me. But that's by the by.
That's an interesting way you describe it actually. Ironic even, since
the first step to getting the drum sound that he does is to actually
add air where other producers/engineers wouldn't. Jeff was asked about
how he got the sound recently on a radio interview. His answer was
along the lines of miking the drums back "a little further than you'd
expect". No doubt he also uses at least another two mikes to catch
room ambience, giving the depth and resonance that so many here
despise, and then compresses the results of all those mikes and hey
presto.. drum sound.
Perhaps if Jeff was more of a drummer himself, he'd be more inclined
to experiemnt a bit instead of sticking to what he's done. Obviously
it's easier and more efficient to just use the formula. I think it was
Ringo who once called Jeff a "fast" producer. That's about right. :-)
Cheers,
Damien
Mister Charlie
"Damien Spanjer" <nu...@jeff-lynne.net> wrote in message
news:f4dca46e.02120...@posting.google.com...
>
> Absolutely, and like I said above, that's quite okay if you don't like
> the sound. I still find it a bit baffling since Jeff's sound was so
> heavily influenced by George in later years (the whole circular logic
> thing) but again, I'm talking about those who accuse Jeff of
> dishonouring George's wishes, not his production style per se.
>
being ruined by Jef. Even when the story first came out that he added a
bit more than George wanted I didn't see red flags raised. The proof's
in the pudding. And apparently even his harsher critics agree he held
back on his usual heavy methods, which I think is great.
Ehtue
It's all in the mind, you know. Most people here don't seem to like the LP
entitled George Harrison or his Extra Texture. I like both of those a lot.
But then I never liked Living In The Material World, either. From that one
I particularly didn't like his line: A mind that wants to wander round a
corner is an unwise mind." But that's another story.
And I *do* like what they did with The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea alot.
I'd been admiring that from the old, unadorned boots for some time... and I
truely appreciate the treatment it got on Brainwashed.
-Ehtue
The Rooster
Damien Spanjer
> What's the point of Jeff joking with George when he's been gone a year?
Well, it depends on what you believe I guess. This isn't the place for
a debate about religion or spirituality though.
Many people talk to the dead. It's nothing unusual, even if it is a
bit odd to this athiest. ;-)
Cheers,
Damien
Damien Spanjer
> No, when he said it makes a difference. If it was said before work even
> began on it (which I think is what happened) then it is open to
> interpretation. If it was said afterwards then yes, you'd have a case.
Good point. The quote in question did surface some time ago. I can't
remember exactly when but it was before the April 2001 release of
"Zoom", the ELO album. I remember the turmoil on the ELO newsgroup and
mailing list about Jeff and George having a falling out. Many ELO fans
missed the joke as well, hence the upset.
My estimate is that the quote came up sometime in 1999 or early 2000,
at which time George was probably aware that he wasn't going to be
around to see the completion (evidence of this is in the 2000 release
under RIP Ltd), and started priming Jeff for the task of picking up
where he later left off.
Also, some of the tracks on "Brainwashed" had been around for much
longer than the last "couple of years" of his life. "Any Road" first
surfaced in a live performance on TV in 1997, and "Vatican P2 Blues"
was most likely a Cloud 9 outtake, given the length of time we have
been aware of this song's existence, and, well, how it sounds.
The evidence suggests that Jeff and George had been working together
on and off for many more years than the press would have you believe,
all in complete secrecy. Not unlike the recording of "Zoom" really,
news of which appeared 'out of the blue' in late 2000, though it had
been recorded over a number of years before that.
So, yes I do have a case Mr Charlie. Now it just remains to be seen if
you can swollow your pride for long enough to admit it. ;-)
Cheers,
Damien
Damien Spanjer
> Oh. Well, as I have yet to hear Brainwashed I am not commenting on it
> being ruined by Jef. Even when the story first came out that he added a
> bit more than George wanted I didn't see red flags raised. The proof's
> in the pudding. And apparently even his harsher critics agree he held
> back on his usual heavy methods, which I think is great.
That's the spirit Charlie! :-)
I must say though I find the use of the word "restraint" a bit odd in
a way. Jeff put his heart and soul into this project, he didn't
"restrain" himself in any way. What he did was give the (incomplete)
songs exactly what they needed to finish them.
Jeff said himself that it was George who taught him to leave some
space in a record, instead of filling every single gap like he did the
the ELO days, so he pretty much just applied what he's learnt to
"Brainwashed", which is no different in essence to what he's done for
the last 15 years.
If not filling every gap on a record is Jeff "restraining" himself,
then he's been doing it for 15 years, so it just seems like an odd
choice of word to me.
Best to all,
Damien
Mister Charlie
problem in admitting it, as my pride is not (usually) sewn into being
right in a newsgroup.
I am found wrong too often NOT to be quite good at apologies.
But in this case again I see only circumstantial evidence at best.
Sean Murdock
Strabbo <str...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > But what people are saying confuses me. Stuff like "oh, don't worry,
> > it doesn't sound like Jeff Lynne!" What's wrong with sounding like
> > Jeff Lynne?
>
> Nothing, if it's a Jeff Lynne disc, or an ELO disc. But George wanted it to
> sound raw and rough, and that (IMO) should have been respected.
Too many people have heard the references to George wanting to release a
"demo-quality" album and translated this as "rough and raw." Have you
ever heard any of George's demos? They are almost uniformly
multi-layered, carefully recorded, and lovingly performed. Listen to the
"Life Itself" demo and then listen to "Stuck Inside a Cloud" --
Brainwashed, even with Jeff's contributions, is surely the most stripped
down and intimate of George's solo records.
--
Sean Murdock
sean...@optonline.net
Sean Murdock
music...@webtv.net (J C) wrote:
Problem is, there would have been no reunion singles with George Martin
producing. George (Harrison) partipated on the condition of bringing
Jeff Lynne in. Paul wanted Martin, George wanted Jeff, and George Martin
declined, not wanting to be in a messy two-producer situation. Smart
move by George Martin.
--
Sean Murdock
sean...@optonline.net
Sean Murdock
nu...@jeff-lynne.net (Damien Spanjer) wrote:
> "Mister Charlie" <smoker...@myway.com> wrote:
>
> The evidence suggests that Jeff and George had been working together
> on and off for many more years than the press would have you believe,
> all in complete secrecy. Not unlike the recording of "Zoom" really,
> news of which appeared 'out of the blue' in late 2000, though it had
> been recorded over a number of years before that.
Actually, Jeff has consistently said that George *played* him some of
the Brainwashed songs during his last years, but that George and Dhani
had been the ones working on the recordings. In addition, the only other
person outside the inner circle to actually hear any recordings --
Billboard's Timothy White -- called the tracks "unprecedentedly
intimate" and made no indication that there would be any production
collaboration. In fact, White said the album was receiving its "final
touches" and it was emphasized that it was an "stunningly personal"
project for George. It's a real shame that Mr. White isn't around to
comment on what was done to the tracks after George's death.
My feeling is that once George knew he wouldn't finish it himself, he
didn't want Dhani to face the burden of finishing it alone -- Dhani's
relative studio inexperience alone would have made it tough for him --
so he chose someone he trusted to help him. George had a lot of friends
would could have held Dhani's hand in the studio -- Eric Clapton, Jim
Capaldi, Joe Brown, to name a few -- but he CHOSE Jeff. That's all I
need to know.
Dhani has since said that he was a pretty tough customer with Jeff
because he was thinking of his father's wishes, not his own. Jeff has
also said that he was keen to please Dhani, and if he didn't comment on
something but looked strange, Jeff would pull it out of him and they
would make whatever changes necessary to satisfy Dhani's vision of what
George wanted.
For the record, I also think George's Jeff-ripping comment about turning
his songs into "ELO albums" was a put-on. No, there's no "proof" but
common sense can lead to a fairly conclusive opinion. Aside from the
fact that Jeff DID work on the album, and Dhani swears George wanted it
that way, I think there's a more convincing argument: Who hated the
press more than George? Do you really think George would give such a
juicy, controversial story to a reporter? The press (and therefore the
public) knew nothing of George's frequent trips to LA where he would
hang out with Jeff and play him his new songs. I can just imagine that
after one such visit, George, answering yet another set of questions
about the Beatles (this time it was the "1" album), would drop this bomb
on an unsuspecting journalist (I believe it was Reuters who got the
"scoop" on George and Jeff's "falling out"), knowing that Jeff would
read it in the papers and have a good chuckle.
--
Sean Murdock
sean...@optonline.net
Luke Pacholski
"Amanda Hill" <amand...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:
>I have some albums he produced. Tom Petty stuff, Flaming Pie, Cloud Nine. I
>like them. What's the big deal?
>
>But what people are saying confuses me. Stuff like "oh, don't worry, it
>doesn't sound like Jeff Lynne!" What's wrong with sounding like Jeff Lynne?
I think it's because Lynne puts a certain sound on most of the stuff he
produces, and it's a sound that a lot of people don't like. Really
squashed drums, which sound like they were recorded from about 10 feet
away, a bunch of strumming acoustic guitars, lots of background vocals,
and everything else kind of squashed together. I've likened it to
listening to a *production*, rather than listening to a *band*.
Not all of Lynne's productions sound exactly like this - Full Moon Fever
has a pretty non-Lynne sound to it, but Into The Great Wide Open has
Jeff written all over it.
But, yeah, listen to most any Lynne production - for the most part they
all kind of have the same sound to them.
Luke
--
BlackMonk
"BHein5468469" <BMuffin...@aol.com.com.com> wrote in message
news:aF3I9.285$p35....@news.uswest.net...
> Plus he is a link to a fantastic band, The Move.
But not to the best Move stuff. Maybe Roy Wood should have produced.
Always thought he retained
> some of their sound.
>
Funny, I just heard Mr. Blue Sky in a commercial and thought it reminded me
of Lynne's first band, The Idle Race. (which he led, whereas he was second
fiddle in The Move)
Damien Spanjer
> But in this case again I see only circumstantial evidence at best.
That's pretty ironic coming from someone with even less circumstantial
evidence to the contrary.
I'm not asking you to admit that you are wrong, just that there's a
chance you could be. I could be wrong myself, and I have problem
admitting that, but commonsense would suggest otherwise, particularly
about George's quote about Jeff's production.
D
RBigbonita
>his songs into "ELO albums" was a put-on.
maybe there is some kind of running joke there since paul said something very
similar regarding the release of flaming pie. at the time (taken at face
value), i wondered why paul would hire jeff if he was that worried about it.
however, i never put that much thought into it and ended up enjoying flaming
pie. this conversation brings it back to me and (at least for me) puts it in
perspective.
Mister Charlie
"Damien Spanjer" <nu...@jeff-lynne.net> wrote in message
news:f4dca46e.02120...@posting.google.com...
the opinions of many people who feel the way that I do.
This is on your end a totally subjective opinion. On my end it is not,
as we have described many times what we object to: the consistent
reliance on overcompressed drums, guitars and thick b/g vocals,
otherwise, the highly identifiable 'Jeff Lynne' sound.
You like him. We don't dislike him entirely, but find his work
intrusive and predictable on too many other artist's records.
No, I'm not wrong. Nor are you, except in trying to make me wrong for
having a slightly informed opinion.
Strabbo
news:ast6nr$gcu$1...@helle.btinternet.com:
>
> "Damien Spanjer" <nu...@jeff-lynne.net> wrote in message
> news:f4dca46e.02120...@posting.google.com...
>> Strabbo <str...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > George wanted [Brainwashed] to sound raw and rough
>> George has always had an acute sense of irony, and if Marty is
>> American, I guess we can forgive him for missing the irony. It's not
>
> And presumably if he was German you could forgive him for being
> ruthlessly efficient, and if he was black you could forgive him for
> being a cannibal.
>
> I believe he's actually Canadian (sorry if I'm wrong, Marty) so I
> guess that means he's a policeman on a horse eating maple syrup,
> right?
LOL!
Thanks, Chris. You're right about my Canadianishness. And I love the new
subject line!
Marty
Strabbo
news:f4dca46e.02120...@posting.google.com:
>> George wanted [Brainwashed] to sound raw and rough
>
> How do you know this? Did you speak to him yourself? Or are you, like
> the rest of us, going by what we've read in the media:- a few quotes
> (often taken out of context as media often does) that you have
> filtered through your own perception of how things should be.
I'm going by what I heard, that these were his wishes and Jeff apologized
to George for finishing them off a bit more, production-wise. How do you
know this was not, in fact, the case?
> George has always had an acute sense of irony, and if Marty is
> American, I guess we can forgive him for missing the irony. It's not
> exactly part of the culture.
Well, I'm not American, and I've never had any trouble getting George's
sense of humor. Damn you ARE touchy on the Lynne issue, aren't you?
> George has always been cynical about the media, and he read all the
> whining from Beatles purists in music mags about Jeff Lynne making
> 'Cloud 9' and the anthology tracks sound like ELO.
Why call it whining? Some people don't like Lynne's style, so deal with it.
Clearly George did, but that doesn't obligate the rest of us to like it.
> When asked before his death about Jeff working on his new album,
> George said "No, I got sick of him making ELO records out of my
> songs". How obvious does it need to be that George was poking fun at
> the people who have said that stuff.
I always thought he was kidding about that remark.
> If he literally *meant* what he
> said, as some dimwitted Beatles purists still believe even to this
> day, then clearly he would have gotten Eric Clapton to produce the
> album, or someone else. It's not as if Jeff was his only friend who
> knew how to drive a recording studio.
Are you, like, Jeff Lynne's wife or something?
: )
> As for George's wishes about the album not being "posh", Dhani has
> since qualified that as meaning "not re-recorded by session musicians
> and overpolished". No self-respecting musician would want pure demos
> to be released as an album (otherwise they'd do bootlegging
> themselves!) and no record company would release them.
So now you assume you know what George wants. How? Did you talk to him?
> Jeff, like George, was taking the piss out of all the people who think
> his production style, simple as it is these days, is somehow
> "overblown" or "posh".
Or "not all that good", as the case may be.
" There is nothing posh about "Brainwashed" at
> all. It's a very honest album. Once again though, the Beatles purists
> in the media have taken Jeff's quote out of context, and have used it
> against him and against the best album released this year.
Well, I wouldn't go that far. And I really haven't heard that many people
using the quote 'against' Jeff at all. I certainly didn't.
> Does "Brainwashed" sound like ELO? No way! Jeff doesn't even sound
> like ELO anymore, and ELO fans blame that (rightly) on George, since
> the moment they started working together, Jeff's sound changed
> forever.
Who said it sounded like ELO? Who are you arguing with here?
> Does "Brainwashed" sound like Cloud 9? Yes, ofcourse some tracks do.
> "Vatican P2 Blues" is an outtake from those same sessions, so what do
> you expect?
Hell, I don't even think it sounds that much like Cloud 9 for the most part
part.
> Does "Brainwashed" sound like the Wilburys? Perhaps, or do the
> Wilburys sound like George? I guess that's a matter of perspective.
> Either way, it's a circular argument.
>
> Perhaps Marty you should actually *listen* to the album before
> declaring that George's wishes were ignored. I think you'll find that
> you are greatly mistaken.
Perhaps, Damien, I have listened to the album. Perhaps I own the album and
perhaps I'm one of the ones who quite enjoyed it. Perhaps you are on some
sort of medication that prevents you from properly understanding the
content of a post and therefore you should be forgiven for completely
missing what I said, assuming and presuming like hell and making a touch of
an ass out of yourself.
Perhaps.
Marty
(Not in the USA)
Christopher Jepson
> Naturally, to every rule there's at least one exception, and you've
> certinaly highlighted them here. I was referring more to the more
> subtle, day to day irony that most of the Americans I know personally
> seem to miss. It's just a type of humour more prevalent in Britain and
> Australia.
As an American I just want to say that I strongly resent the charge that we lack
irony. We're the greatest damn country on earth and we have more irony in our
little fingers than you've got in your whole body. In fact, we have a huge
strategic stockpile of irony concealed in a vast underground warehouse in Nevada.
Chris Jepson
Mister Charlie
"Christopher Jepson" <cje...@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:3DF505E0...@mail.med.upenn.edu...
'Humorless Terror'.
Damien Spanjer
> I'm going by what I heard, that these were his wishes and Jeff apologized
> to George for finishing them off a bit more, production-wise. How do you
> know this was not, in fact, the case?
I don't know for sure. I'm happy to admit that. But are you also happy
to admit that given the running joke between Jeff and George making
ELO records (a joke even shared by Paul when FP came out), and the
fact that Dhani has claimed his father's wishes WERE followed to the
letter, that you too may also be wrong?
> Well, I'm not American, and I've never had any trouble getting George's
> sense of humor. Damn you ARE touchy on the Lynne issue, aren't you?
I just get offended by people using him as a scapegoat for everything
they don't like about a Beatles project he's been involved in.
I also feel that the mark of a true fan is being able to move forward
with the artists involved, and that if George, Paul or Ringo want to
work with Jeff Lynne, then that's acceptable and that each project
should be judged on its own merits, not for who produced it.
> Why call it whining? Some people don't like Lynne's style, so deal with it.
> Clearly George did, but that doesn't obligate the rest of us to like it.
Nobody said you HAVE to like Lynne's production style. But if Lynne's
involvement is the only reason we have this masterpiece
("Brainwashed") in our hands, then why slaughter the man for just
doing his friend a favour? There's far too much bitterness directed
towards him, for no good reason.
> Well, I wouldn't go that far. And I really haven't heard that many people
> using the quote 'against' Jeff at all. I certainly didn't.
I may have gotten you mixed up with another poster than. It's easy to
do when people don't use quotes their posts properly.
> Who said it sounded like ELO? Who are you arguing with here?
I'm arguing against a collective opinion, not any single person. The
"sounds-like-ELO" thing is something that is dug up time and time
again by both posters in this newsgroup as well as reviews who
subscribe to the "Beatles purist" school of thought - that George
Martin is the only person allowed to produce any Beatles-related
project anywhere at anytime.
Clearly, you're one of the more forward-thinking here Marty, which is
fantastic, and you and I obviously agree on this point.
> Hell, I don't even think it sounds that much like Cloud 9 for the most part
> part.
Yet another point on which we agree.
> Perhaps, Damien, I have listened to the album. Perhaps I own the album and
> perhaps I'm one of the ones who quite enjoyed it.
Again, I've probably mixed you up with someone else. I recall reading
someone write that they were waiting to receive the album for
Christmas, and hadn't heard it. It's the people who haven't listened
to it and broadcast their obviously uninformed opinion that really irk
me. Surely you'd agree that it is unreasonable to judge a work of
music without actually listening to it? Any reasonable person would,
and you seem to be a reasonable person.
> Perhaps you are on some sort of medication that prevents you from properly
> understanding the content of a post
There's only one way to interpret a claim that George's wishes weren't
honoured.
> missing what I said, assuming and presuming like hell and making a touch of
> an ass out of yourself.
Gee, and this post was coming across so well until you resorted to
this comment.
It's true that my cynicism doesn't always serve me well, but there's
certainly nothing wrong with my comprehension of English.
Cheers,
Damien
David P Chabot
--
Peace...Dave www.Shemakhan.com
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before
breakfast."
Lewis Carroll
"Christopher Jepson" <cje...@mail.med.upenn.edu> wrote in message
news:3DF505E0...@mail.med.upenn.edu...
David P Chabot
could see how to spell that correctly... did I do good?
--
Peace...Dave www.Shemakhan.com
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before
breakfast."
Lewis Carroll
"Strabbo" <str...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92DF7CFD2AE03...@24.70.95.211...
David P Chabot
--
Peace...Dave www.Shemakhan.com
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before
breakfast."
Lewis Carroll
"Strabbo" <str...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92DF7CFD2AE03...@24.70.95.211...
Mister Charlie
>From: nu...@jeff-lynne.net (Damien Spanjer)
>Date: 12/9/2002 5:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <f4dca46e.02120...@posting.google.com>
>
>Strabbo <str...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>I just get offended by people using him as a scapegoat for everything
>they don't like about a Beatles project he's been involved in.
Saying we don't like his sound on other's records is not scapegoating anything.
He has an easily identifiable sound that MANY people hear and say they have
gotten tired of. Period.
>
>I also feel that the mark of a true fan is being able to move forward
>with the artists involved, and that if George, Paul or Ringo want to
>work with Jeff Lynne, then that's acceptable and that each project
>should be judged on its own merits, not for who produced it.
This is horseplop. "True fan"??? Who are you to determine what contitutes a
'true fan'??? Maybe I think you're not a true Lynne fan because you defend him
so much it makes him look worse than he really is. So whose definition is
correct? Exactly. Neither.
>
>> Why call it whining? Some people don't like Lynne's style, so deal with it.
>
>> Clearly George did, but that doesn't obligate the rest of us to like it.
>
>Nobody said you HAVE to like Lynne's production style. But if Lynne's
>involvement is the only reason we have this masterpiece
>("Brainwashed") in our hands, then why slaughter the man for just
>doing his friend a favour?
It's NOT the "only" reason we have Brainwashed. George is the only reason.
ANYone could have produced it, including Dhani.
There's far too much bitterness directed
>towards him, for no good reason.
No there is far too much mindless adoration and defending when all people are
doing is expressing a valid criticism.
>
>> Who said it sounded like ELO? Who are you arguing with here?
>
>I'm arguing against a collective opinion, not any single person. The
>"sounds-like-ELO" thing is something that is dug up time and time
>again by both posters in this newsgroup as well as reviews who
>subscribe to the "Beatles purist" school of thought - that George
>Martin is the only person allowed to produce any Beatles-related
>project anywhere at anytime.
WRONG. I don't care who produces their recors. But if they sound shitty to me
then I don't want that person to KEEP ON producing their records. It needn't
be Martin. The 'collective opinion' is simply the many people who can hear
with their own ears that Lynne has an identifiable sound that rarely varies,
and as such it is dated and is not appreciated. That is valid. Your
contention it's a non-true-fan's pro-Martin conspiracy is ridiculous and a red
herring. Address the problem: Lynne's drum sound. His compression techniques.
You're being offered actual reasons for why people aren't enamored of this
sound anymore. You want to turn it into an emotional debate but it was never
that in the first place.
>
>> Perhaps, Damien, I have listened to the album. Perhaps I own the album and
>> perhaps I'm one of the ones who quite enjoyed it.
>
>Again, I've probably mixed you up with someone else. I recall reading
>someone write that they were waiting to receive the album for
>Christmas, and hadn't heard it.
That's correct. That would be me.
It's the people who haven't listened
>to it and broadcast their obviously uninformed opinion that really irk
>me.
Because plainly, almost derek-like now, you cannot read. You are irked that I
broadcast the *informed* opinion that based on everything I have read and
heard, Brainwashed is a masterpiece and Jef Lynne did an exceptionally
restrained job on his usual technique. I have been nothing but complimentary
based on other people who I know dislike the Lynne sound as much as I do saying
that he did a good job. Before Brainwashed was released there was a lot of
comment like, 'yeah, if Lynne produced it it will suck'. The VERY SAME people
have since said it is cery good.
And I've posted this now a few times. Where have YOU been?
Surely you'd agree that it is unreasonable to judge a work of
>music without actually listening to it?
Absolutely. I have withheld any comment on it whatsoever, except to compliment
Lynne based on what others are saying.
>
>It's true that my cynicism doesn't always serve me well, but there's
>certainly nothing wrong with my comprehension of English.
I think there might be a bit, yeah.
David P Chabot
--
Peace...Dave www.Shemakhan.com
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before
breakfast."
Lewis Carroll
"Mister Charlie" <tenseven...@aol.combugger> wrote in message
news:20021209222749...@mb-mm.aol.com...
Damien Spanjer
> As an American I just want to say that I strongly resent the charge that
> we lack irony. We're the greatest damn country on earth and we have more
> irony in our little fingers than you've got in your whole body. In fact,
> we have a huge strategic stockpile of irony concealed in a vast underground
> warehouse in Nevada.
Isn't that where Area 51 is? Is this extra-terrestrial irony? ;-)
D
Damien Spanjer
> Which our President has pledged to use in his fight against the
> 'Humorless Terror'.
Is this Chemical or Biological irony? Political irony?
D
Damien Spanjer
> Maybe I think you're not a true Lynne fan because you defend him
> so much it makes him look worse than he really is.
That's a different take on the situation. Ofcourse, "Brainwashed" on
its own is enough "defence" for Jeff. He was won a lot of respect from
the purists for his production this time round, as he did for "Flaming
Pie".
However, even though he's done what his critics wanted him to do, many
are still not happy. I guess there just ain't no way to please a
purist Beatles fan.
> It's NOT the "only" reason we have Brainwashed. George is the only reason.
That's not what I meant and you know it. I was referring to the fact
that had Jeff not ben involved, the album might never have been
finished, or could have taken much much longer to surface. Who was
saying something about English comprehension?
> No there is far too much mindless adoration and defending when all people are
> doing is expressing a valid criticism.
But when valid praise is met with mindless hatred, that's okay?
> Address the problem: Lynne's drum sound. His compression techniques.
He's addressed it himself, on both "Flaming Pie" and "Brainwashed".
Anyone who truly believes that either of those albums is awash in
Lynne drum sounds obviously hasn't heard much of Jeff's production
work.
I agree he has an identifiable sound. More than that, it's a FACT.
That's not what we're debating here. I was attempting to point out
that even though Lynne has pandered to the purists, he is still
intensely disliked for doing it. Perhaps not by yourself Mr Charlie,
but since this thread has virtually been between you and I, we're each
representing a *set* of ideas and opinions, not *all* of which may be
our own. For instance, you have inferred that I 'mindlessly adore'
Jeff Lynne. Not so. I love a lot of what he's done, but I also hate
many things he's done. That's not mindless adoration.
> You're being offered actual reasons for why people aren't enamored of this
> sound anymore. You want to turn it into an emotional debate but it was never
> that in the first place.
I wouldn't call this an emotional debate. Sure, it's been a bit of a
battle of wills, but we've both used logic over emotion. That's what's
made it so enjoyable! :-)
> Before Brainwashed was released there was a lot of comment like, 'yeah, if
> Lynne produced it it will suck'. The VERY SAME people have since said it
> is cery good.
This is true. By the same token though, there are still some who still
say it sucks *because* Lynne produced it, and some of THOSE who
haven't even listened to it. This is the "uninformed opinion" I speak
of. It's more a product of certain music "reviewers" than this NG,
though I'm sure there are some here who subscribe to these sorts of
opinions.
> And I've posted this now a few times. Where have YOU been?
I've been right here on RMB agreeing with you that Jeff Lynne has done
a great job. Doesn't mean I have to agree with everything you write
though does it?
D
Strabbo
news:ALcJ9.3810$hw3.111@sccrnsc04:
> CANADIANISHNESS...?!?! I had to go back and forth to your post just so I
> could see how to spell that correctly... did I do good?
You did wonderfully!
Sorry, I need to invent a new word every week or I start growing this
narsty fungus in my various crevasses. My doctor can't explain it either.
Marty
Mister Charlie
> tenseven...@aol.combugger (Mister Charlie) wrote:
>
> > Maybe I think you're not a true Lynne fan because you defend him
> > so much it makes him look worse than he really is.
>
> That's a different take on the situation. Ofcourse, "Brainwashed" on
> its own is enough "defence" for Jeff. He was won a lot of respect from
> the purists for his production this time round, as he did for "Flaming
> Pie".
>
> However, even though he's done what his critics wanted him to do, many
> are still not happy. I guess there just ain't no way to please a
> purist Beatles fan.
Who's not happy? Why knock all Beatle fans? I JUST got done telling
you how most all of his usual critics in here have universally *praised*
his work. What are you not getting here?
>
> > It's NOT the "only" reason we have Brainwashed. George is the only
reason.
>
> That's not what I meant and you know it.
No, I don't. Hence my answer. You made it sound like without Jeff
there would have been no Brainwashed. Which is quite untrue.
I was referring to the fact
> that had Jeff not ben involved, the album might never have been
> finished, or could have taken much much longer to surface. Who was
> saying something about English comprehension?
Read your own post again.
"Might never have been..." pretty wild speculation there.
>
> > No there is far too much mindless adoration and defending when all
people are
> > doing is expressing a valid criticism.
>
> But when valid praise is met with mindless hatred, that's okay?
Mindless? I'm not going to enumerate yet again all the reasons MANY
have given for not likeing the Lynne sound. You are simply ignoring
them now for an emotional argument. And who determines if your praise
is 'valid'? And who determines when criticism is 'valid'?? Or is it
simply not allowed at all???
Hatred?? OK, some perhaps. I don't hate it OR him, it is simply
annoying and in some cases ruins the records for me.
>
> > Address the problem: Lynne's drum sound. His compression
techniques.
>
> He's addressed it himself, on both "Flaming Pie" and "Brainwashed".
> Anyone who truly believes that either of those albums is awash in
> Lynne drum sounds obviously hasn't heard much of Jeff's production
> work.
I don't care about Flaming Pie. We're talking about Brainwashed here,
and no one said that THIS album was the problem. Please pay attention!
>
> I agree he has an identifiable sound. More than that, it's a FACT.
> That's not what we're debating here.
It sure as hell IS! THAT's the germ of the whole discussion, because it
is NOT "mindless" criticsm being made, it is VALID and specific!
I was attempting to point out
> that even though Lynne has pandered to the purists, he is still
> intensely disliked for doing it.
So anyone who disagrees is a 'purist' to be pandered to? You have
veered far off the subject into pure opinion and defending your hero.
Fine, but name calling (gentle tho they may be) is not winning you any
points.
Perhaps not by yourself Mr Charlie,
> but since this thread has virtually been between you and I, we're each
> representing a *set* of ideas and opinions, not *all* of which may be
> our own. For instance, you have inferred that I 'mindlessly adore'
> Jeff Lynne. Not so. I love a lot of what he's done, but I also hate
> many things he's done. That's not mindless adoration.
And I have openly critiqued many Beatle projects. So how does that make
ME a 'purist'? What's good for the goose.....
>
> > You're being offered actual reasons for why people aren't enamored
of this
> > sound anymore. You want to turn it into an emotional debate but it
was never
> > that in the first place.
>
> I wouldn't call this an emotional debate. Sure, it's been a bit of a
> battle of wills, but we've both used logic over emotion. That's what's
> made it so enjoyable! :-)
It's not -insulting- but it IS turning into a purely emotional debate,
Damien. But I agree discussing this with you has not been a battle,
which I appreciate.
>
> > Before Brainwashed was released there was a lot of comment like,
'yeah, if
> > Lynne produced it it will suck'. The VERY SAME people have since
said it
> > is cery good.
>
> This is true.
Not quite. They said VERY good. I'm the idiot who said CERY good. :)
By the same token though, there are still some who still
> say it sucks *because* Lynne produced it, and some of THOSE who
> haven't even listened to it. This is the "uninformed opinion" I speak
> of. It's more a product of certain music "reviewers" than this NG,
> though I'm sure there are some here who subscribe to these sorts of
> opinions.
I have only read two comments in here negative about Brainwashed. One
was from Nance, so that was just a pure troll (even if he really
believes it, who cares?). The other expressed disappointment. But
neither said much about Jeff, it was about George's singing and the
quality of the songs. So I am not seeing this groundswell of grief
about Jeff's production being expressed here or in any other Beatle
board. There WAS *BEFORE* it was released, because many folks do not
like hearing that sound all the time. But once it came out almost
everyone admitted he did a good job.
>
> > And I've posted this now a few times. Where have YOU been?
>
> I've been right here on RMB agreeing with you that Jeff Lynne has done
> a great job. Doesn't mean I have to agree with everything you write
> though does it?
LOL...You're chastising me for EVER hinting he might have made some
production errors! Until I hear Brainwashed I am only reporting what
others say, but so far it has been uniformly good. So I don't see your
reasoning to complain.
>
> D
Lookingglass
--
Peace...Dave www.Shemakhan.com
"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before
breakfast."
Lewis Carroll
"Strabbo" <str...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92E05B4BCB25E...@24.70.95.211...
Mister Charlie
Various? Good Lord, how many you got? No wait, never mind, I really
needn't know....
>
>
>
>
>
> Marty
Strabbo
>> I'm going by what I heard, that these were his wishes and Jeff
>> apologized to George for finishing them off a bit more,
>> production-wise. How do you know this was not, in fact, the case?
>
> I don't know for sure. I'm happy to admit that. But are you also happy
> to admit that given the running joke between Jeff and George making
> ELO records (a joke even shared by Paul when FP came out), and the
> fact that Dhani has claimed his father's wishes WERE followed to the
> letter, that you too may also be wrong?
Of course I may be wrong. I never said I knew anything for certain, I was
just reporting what I'd heard.
>> Well, I'm not American, and I've never had any trouble getting
>> George's sense of humor. Damn you ARE touchy on the Lynne issue,
>> aren't you?
>
> I just get offended by people using him as a scapegoat for everything
> they don't like about a Beatles project he's been involved in.
Well, I personally don't know any such people. Anyone I've talked to who
didn't like what he did on FAAB or RL didn't like it because they didn't
like it, not because it was Jeff Lynne and they had preconceived ideas. I
don't know anyone who wasn't hopeful and excited before they'd heard those
two new songs.
> I also feel that the mark of a true fan is being able to move forward
> with the artists involved, and that if George, Paul or Ringo want to
> work with Jeff Lynne, then that's acceptable and that each project
> should be judged on its own merits, not for who produced it.
And "Flaming Pie" is quite well-received around here, despite who produced
it. So is "Cloud 9" and the Wilbury's material. Thing is, the project's
'own merits' includes the production, and the fact is, Jeff Lynne's
production techniques have left a bad taste in some people's mouths.
>> Why call it whining? Some people don't like Lynne's style, so deal
>> with it. Clearly George did, but that doesn't obligate the rest of us
>> to like it.
>
> Nobody said you HAVE to like Lynne's production style. But if Lynne's
> involvement is the only reason we have this masterpiece
> ("Brainwashed") in our hands, then why slaughter the man for just
> doing his friend a favour? There's far too much bitterness directed
> towards him, for no good reason.
Most everyone I've read here has actually complimented Lynne in not going
over the top on "Brainwashed". The criticism comes from his earlier work.
>> Who said it sounded like ELO? Who are you arguing with here?
>
> I'm arguing against a collective opinion, not any single person. The
> "sounds-like-ELO" thing is something that is dug up time and time
> again by both posters in this newsgroup as well as reviews who
> subscribe to the "Beatles purist" school of thought - that George
> Martin is the only person allowed to produce any Beatles-related
> project anywhere at anytime.
I don't remember anyone making that particular claim.
And the "Sounds-like-ELO" claim is mainly based on the guitar sounds, drum
sounds and vocal sounds that are heard on some of ELO's biggest hits, and
traces of which can also be heard on some of Lynne's later work.
> Clearly, you're one of the more forward-thinking here Marty, which is
> fantastic, and you and I obviously agree on this point.
Well, we both agree on the production on "Brainwashed". Though there are
parts that don't impress me, overall, the production was done quite
tastefully.
>> Perhaps, Damien, I have listened to the album. Perhaps I own the
>> album and perhaps I'm one of the ones who quite enjoyed it.
>
> Again, I've probably mixed you up with someone else. I recall reading
> someone write that they were waiting to receive the album for
> Christmas, and hadn't heard it. It's the people who haven't listened
> to it and broadcast their obviously uninformed opinion that really irk
> me. Surely you'd agree that it is unreasonable to judge a work of
> music without actually listening to it? Any reasonable person would,
> and you seem to be a reasonable person.
A work of music can be discussed without hearing it, but it should not be
judged on that basis, no.
>> Perhaps you are on some sort of medication that prevents you from
>> properly understanding the content of a post
>
> There's only one way to interpret a claim that George's wishes weren't
> honoured.
Well, no one knows for certain how George would have produced it. Let's
leave it at that.
>> missing what I said, assuming and presuming like hell and making a
>> touch of an ass out of yourself.
>
> Gee, and this post was coming across so well until you resorted to
> this comment.
Sorry, got a little riled. Didn't get a lot of sleep this weekend.
Marty
Strabbo
news:9HoJ9.304329$NH2.21349@sccrnsc01:
> NARSTY...! There's another one!
>
Yup. I've been using that one longer than 'bestn't'.
Marty
Christopher Jepson
Your confusion is understandable. Actually, Nevada is nothing but a mass of
underground strategic stockpiles... among other things, we have strategic
stockpiles of crustaceans, Pop Tarts, third-string quarterbacks, cockeyed
optimism, Dodge Chargers, Christmas cheer, cheap hookers, auditory
hallucinations, Elvis impersonators, and "Whip Inflation Now" buttons.
Chris Jepson
Damien Spanjer
> Who's not happy? Why knock all Beatle fans?
I'm not, that's the point that I have tried to make time and time
again. This was more of a general discussion about two opposing
viewpoints. Certainly, I've seen lots of praise here in RMB for
"Brainwashed", and that's great.
You keep on saying that I don't "get" that you've been praising
"Brainwashed", but nothing could be further from the truth. Problem
is, this thread has gone off onto so many tangents now that I'm not
surprised we've lost our way a bit. Must be time to call it a day. ;-)
> "Might never have been..." pretty wild speculation there.
Speculation yes, but the key word here is "might". Anything is
possible, and nothing is absolute.
> Hatred?? OK, some perhaps. I don't hate it OR him, it is simply
> annoying and in some cases ruins the records for me.
Yes, I fully accept that, and again, like I've been trying to get
through, I was campaigning against the hatred. You don't harbour the
hatred yourself, yet it appears you've spent the entire thread
defending the hatred. It obviously wasn't your intention though, as
you don't come across as a hateful person at all.
In my last post in this tread I wrote:
> I agree he has an identifiable sound. More than that, it's a FACT.
> That's not what we're debating here.
To which you replied:
> It sure as hell IS! THAT's the germ of the whole discussion, because it
> is NOT "mindless" criticsm being made, it is VALID and specific!
Please don't quote me out of context. My use of the word "mindless"
was in relation to the hatred, not the criticism. They are two very
different things. I don't really think there is such a thing as
"mindless criticism", because any real critique of a piece of work, be
it music, art, or whatever, usually involves considered analysis of
all aspects of the work. It's anything BUT mindless.
Besides, and I make this point yet again, I have already agreed that
Lynne has an identifiable sound. It was that sound which drew me to
his work in the first place. For me to claim it doesn't exist would be
to deny my own enjoyment of his work. While consistently missing my
point, you've been consistently accusing me of missing yours. It's
become a vicious circle.
> Fine, but name calling (gentle tho they may be) is not winning you any
> points.
Not sure how using the word "purist" to describe a school of thought
or set of ideaas has become "namecalling". By accusing me of that it
is you who turns this into an emotional debate.
> And I have openly critiqued many Beatle projects. So how does that make
> ME a 'purist'? What's good for the goose.....
No no no, YOU'RE not a purist Mr Charlie. Jumping to their defence
just makes you look like one. ;-) I've never once said that I
considered you a purist. I don't.
> It's not -insulting- but it IS turning into a purely emotional debate,
> Damien. But I agree discussing this with you has not been a battle,
> which I appreciate.
True, not a battle. Lots of circles though, and I think we're pretty
much run the course of it. Like I just said, it's only become an
emotional debate on account of a series of misinterpretations.
> I have only read two comments in here negative about Brainwashed. One
> was from Nance, so that was just a pure troll (even if he really
> believes it, who cares?). The other expressed disappointment. But
> neither said much about Jeff, it was about George's singing and the
> quality of the songs. So I am not seeing this groundswell of grief
> about Jeff's production being expressed here or in any other Beatle
> board.
Agreed. The most negativity I've read about it was actually on a
BBC.co.uk forum, and even there the balance was in favour of the
positive. There were still posts there that reeked of the deep hatred
I talked about though. The thing is, with that forum now closed, where
else can we debate the opposing views? That's what RMB is for I
believe. Debate, discussion, sharing of news, info, music, and meeting
new people. It's all good.
> LOL...You're chastising me for EVER hinting he might have made some
> production errors!
Definitely not! Just mention a song called "Doin' That Crazy Thing" to
any ELO/Jeff Lynne discussion forum and people will literally dive for
cover! ;-)
And then there's the thing he did for Jimmy Nail. Great song, but way
overcompressed. Even parts of "Zoom" suffered the same
overcompression. Some have said that "Brainwashed" is what "Zoom"
SHOULD have sounded like. I'm inclined to agree.
So, as I take stock of our debate, I think we agree with each other. I
agree with you that Jeff Lynne has a "stamp" of his own that is
instantly recognisable, but that "Brainwashed" demonstrates a more
sensitive and tasteful production. Likewise, you seem to agree with my
point that the hatred of some towards Jeff Lynne is unfair, given the
number of quality things he's done. He's only human, so ofcourse he
won't do everything perfectly.
I've enjoyed this. Thanks for the debate. :-)
Cheers,
Damien
Damien Spanjer
> > There's only one way to interpret a claim that George's wishes weren't
> > honoured.
>
> Well, no one knows for certain how George would have produced it. Let's
> leave it at that.
Sensible and succint. Very well said. :-)
Cheers,
Damien
Mister Charlie
I think this has indeed puttered out.
mihal...@gmail.com
Norbert K
> I have some albums he produced. Tom Petty stuff, Flaming Pie, Cloud Nine. I
> like them. What's the big deal?
>
> I haven't gotten Brainwashed yet. Asked Santa. Hope I was good enough this
> year. Will get back to you on that.
>
> But what people are saying confuses me. Stuff like "oh, don't worry, it
> doesn't sound like Jeff Lynne!" What's wrong with sounding like Jeff Lynne?
>
> Just wondering.
He's a little too obvious in trying to sound Beatlesque; and I can't stand the processed effect of his backing vocals.
I like some of the records, though, Some of the Petty stuff is pretty okay.
Nil
return or see this reply, I'll toss out my 2c...
The only thing wrong with Jeff Lynne is that he developed a formula and
hammered it into the ground. He's a great songwriter and a skilled
producer withing his self-imposed limits, but his records tend to sound
the same as the last one, as do his productions. Sure there's value in
consistency and competence, but you also need a sense of forward motion
rather than repeating the past.
My favorite Jeff Lynne stuff is from his days in The Move, before he
fossilized.
zippl...@gmail.com
>
> >I have some albums he produced. Tom Petty stuff, Flaming Pie, Cloud Nine.
> >I
> >like them. What's the big deal?
> >
> >I haven't gotten Brainwashed yet. Asked Santa. Hope I was good enough this
> >year. Will get back to you on that.
> >
> >But what people are saying confuses me. Stuff like "oh, don't worry, it
> >doesn't sound like Jeff Lynne!" What's wrong with sounding like Jeff Lynne?
> >
> >Just wondering.
>
> greatest writer - composer - producers in the world today.
Oh Gawd. You have to be kidding.
zippl...@gmail.com
> "Amanda Hill" <amand...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
> news:asogs5$3jn$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
> I
> > like them. What's the big deal?
>
>
> his overbearing production sound leads to homogonisation of the artists he
> produces.
>
> plus his sound, while being "radio friendly", wears very thin after about
> six listens.
There you go.
P-Dub
ELO has been classical, rocky, McCartney-ish, Lennon-ish, and even Harrison-ish. He's been Berry-ish. And he's been Beethoven-ish. WIN WIN WIN WIN.
I finally get a chance to see ELO live August 2018. In the 70s they got 'busted' for playing records for sections they couldn't replicate live. There's no need to do that now. Technology has made it so you CAN replicate the studio on a live stage. And judging by the success of 'Wembley or Bust' - this is a new chapter.
Can't wait.
zippl...@gmail.com
> On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 1:29:27 PM UTC-4, zippl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, December 5, 2002 at 5:35:13 PM UTC-6, big easy wrote:
> > > "Amanda Hill" <amand...@mail.utexas.edu> wrote in message
> > > news:asogs5$3jn$1...@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu...
> > > > I have some albums he produced. Tom Petty stuff, Flaming Pie, Cloud Nine.
> > > I
> > > > like them. What's the big deal?
> > >
> > > he sucks.
> > >
> > > his overbearing production sound leads to homogonisation of the artists he
> > > produces.
> > >
> > > plus his sound, while being "radio friendly", wears very thin after about
> > > six listens.
> >
> > There you go.
>
> Jeff Lynne is a freaking genius. He did some 'artsy' stuff - like his latest album 'Out Of the Blue'. But he also did some 'schlocky' commercial stuff that made the charts in the day. What successful band HASN'T done BLATANTLY commercial stuff??
but has no sound of his own. And we weren't talking about commerial
stuff as far as I recall, and I don't care for his production.
> ELO has been classical, rocky, McCartney-ish, Lennon-ish, and even Harrison-ish. He's been Berry-ish. And he's been Beethoven-ish. WIN WIN WIN WIN.
>
> I finally get a chance to see ELO live August 2018. In the 70s they got 'busted' for playing records for sections they couldn't replicate live. There's no need to do that now. Technology has made it so you CAN replicate the studio on a live stage. And judging by the success of 'Wembley or Bust' - this is a new chapter.
>
> Can't wait.
he performed across the street.
P-Dub
Have a nice day, and thank you for playing.
zippl...@gmail.com
his production. He's written some good songs. But he over-does
his production which turns me off. Not on all the songs of course.
And - yes - Lynne/ELO have a distinctive sound and style of their own. And I am a huge fan.
a problem with what I like.
> Have a nice day, and thank you for playing.
think you are taking it personally because I don't love everything about
Jeff Lynne as you do. I'm really shocked. I didn't know you were like this.
I can't believe it. I really can't. Oh well. Thanks for your response.
ocean...@hotmail.com
> > Nine. I like them. What's the big deal?
>
> as well as the guitar sounds. It's not that it's a horrible thing, but it's
> a 'stamp', and it's on just about everything he's done.
>
> The sound has a lot of appeal to a lot of people, and he's certainly worked
> on some great songs, but if you want a prime example of how his sound
> compares to a more natural (invisible) production style, listen to Tom
> Petty's "Wildflowers" album (non-Lynne), then listen to the style on "Full
> Moon Fever".
>
> The two Beatles songs he did suffered from those same sounds, and, IMO,
> that took away from their potential. Jeff was a poor choice for those
> tunes."
Couldn't agree with you more. I thought I was the only one who felt that way. SO MANY other and better and more innovative producers they could have used such as Butch Vig or Nigel Godrich, for starters. Even George Martin! Jeff Lynne's productions all sound the same. Overproduced, same guitar sound, flat, boring drums, and like ELO, only worse. Lost potential. John would never have approved Lynne's producing those tracks, or any post-Beatle breakup tracks. Macca and George have lost their edge. Loyalty can be counterproductive.
super70s
Listen to the songs he did on Badfinger's Straight Up or those mid-70s
Grand Funk albums. I imagine a lot of people don't even realize it
because Rundgren's solo albums were never mega-sellers like the ELO
stuff.
Unlike Lynne though Rundgren isn't a big fan of strings, you usually
hear his imprint in the drums and keyboards.
I will say Lynne did a bang up job on "Free as a Bird" though, I don't
think Paul or George could have pulled it off even if they had the
interest to spend a lot of time producing it.
Norbert K
The Threetles tunes are dreary, flaccid and lethargic.
One of the reasons the Beatles were great is that the guys knew how to flesh out each others songs -- as, e.g., McCartney's bass and Ringo's drums added so much to Lennon's "Come Together." Lynne's familiar production gimmicks are no substitute for inspired musical parts.