Cynthia speaks out!
CaroJ11
Friday 29th Sept 2000
ALL YOU NEED IS HATE
An explosive documentary sheds new light on the tangled loves in the life of
John Lennon.
She looks around the house she once lived in with John Lennon and shivers.
"It's sad, full of ghosts," says Cynthia with a sigh, glancing back at the
bedroom they shared just after their son Julian was born.
At the Liverpool home in Menlove Avenue, owned by John's late aunt Mimi,
memories flood back of a chapter in Cynthia's life which has since become
legend.
On October 9, John Lennon would have been 60 and on either side of the
Atlantic his first and second wives, Cynthia and Yoko Ono, can only imagine
what might have been if he had lived. The former Beatle was shot five times
by crazed fan Mark Chapman as he returned to the apartment he shared with
Yoko in New York's Dakota Building, on December 8, 1980.
In a controversial new documentary, The Real John Lennon, it is revealed that
his marriage to Yoko was on the rocks and he was planning to return to
Liverpool. Ironically, Yoko had moved his belongings out of their apartment
and was planning to divorce him as it has been revealed she had a long-term
lover.
Friends and family talk about life with John. And in a frank interview
Cynthia, 61, reveals her dislike of Yoko, whom she blames for wrecking her
marriage and for keeping John and Julian, now 37, apart.
"I knew there was nothing I could do to keep the marriage together because
there were other forces, more powerful and devious than I was," says Cynthia.
She met John at the Liverpool College of Art in 1958 and they married when
she fell pregnant in 1962.
John first saw Yoko when one of her quirky art exhibitions was featured on
TV. He and Cynthia laughed at her as a "nutcase" but, intrigued by Yoko's
wackiness, John went to see her show and struck up a friendship which quickly
turned into an affair.
"He'd receive letters from Yoko saying she couldn't handle things," says
Cynthia. "She'd arrive and ask to use the phone, and come in and leave her
ring behind. She did a number, she was determined."
Cynthia recalls returning home from a week-long holiday with Julian to
discover she had lost her husband to Yoko. "All the lights were on, we went
in and shouted, 'Anybody home?' John and Yoko were sitting there, he was in a
dressing gown and she was in a dressing gown. They just sat there as if
everything was normal," she remembers.
But worse was yet to come. After John relocated to New York, Cynthia got a
call from Yoko. It was the start of a bitter ongoing feud between the two.
"She said, 'John and I have decided that from now on I speak to you about
Julian and he speaks to my ex-husband about my daughter Kyoko'. Then there
was no contact for four years. Julian would watch TV and it would be, 'That's
my daddy!' At school it was, 'My daddy is a Beatle'. But daddy wasn't having
anything to do with him," she says quietly.
Cynthia was not the only one hurt by John and Yoko's bizarre relationship.
Former personal assistant May Pang talks about her highly-publicised romance
with John after his marriage to Yoko turned sour.
"Yoko came into my office and said, 'John and I are not getting along. He's
going to start going out with other people. You haven't got a boyfriend, John
should go out with you'. I said, 'I don't want your husband'. She was
laughing," recalls May. "Yoko kept saying, 'You two must get together'.
Finally we ended up alone at my place, then he made moves."
John and May's ensuing affair has been described as his "lost weekend". In
fact, it lasted for 18 months and the couple even moved in together.
"Yoko wanted a divorce in February 1974," says May. "John came home and said,
'I'm going to be a single man in six months'. One time he got angry with her
and said, 'If we're going to get divorced let's do it quick, I've had it'.
Three months went by and I said, 'What happened with the divorce?' He said
Yoko had said the time wasn't right, it wasn't in the stars."
Like Cynthia, May claims that Yoko, who is depicted in the documentary as
cold and calculating, exploited John's weaknesses - the deaths of his mum
Julia, killed by a drink driver when John was 17, and close friend Stuart
Sutcliffe.
John later went back to Yoko and the couple hired another personal assistant,
Fred Seaman. He describes the odd life of the Lennon household. "It's said
that Yoko returned to the apartment after giving birth to their son Sean,"
says Fred. "She handed him the baby, and said, 'I did my part, now it's your
turn'. John told me he'd retired from music, he was tired of being
competitive and felt it would be an opportunity to be a better father to Sean
than he'd been to Julian.
"I didn't get the impression that he was happy, I had the feeling he was
frustrated because he wasn't getting very much physical affection from Yoko.
He talked about renewing his relationship with May."
Yoko's control extended even after his death. John's half-sister Julia Baird
says, "Yoko did not want any of the family at that funeral. We were totally
excluded." His cousin Stanley Parkes adds, "We had a letter from John saying,
'I'm coming home...I'm going to look after my own family for a change'."
Cynthia sums up the anger which has haunted his family ever since. "After
John got shot there was a phone call from Yoko wanting to speak to Julian,"
she says. "He was very distressed and said, 'Mum, Yoko wants me to go to the
funeral'. I said, 'Do you want me to go with you?' He said yes. I told Yoko I
didn't think he was in any fit state to go to America alone and she said,
'Look, Cynthia, if you come he won't be coming - it's not as if you're an old
school friend of mine, is it?' I couldn't believe what I was hearing."
Yoko was invited to appear in the documentary but, unsurprisingly, she
declined.
The Real John Lennon, Saturday, C4, 9pm.
CaroJ11
jumpin' bean
--------------------------------------------------------------
Good one!
Looks like Yoko is the biggest "hater" in RMB
"CaroJ11" <car...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000930010659...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
> From www.mirror.co.uk
>
> Friday 29th Sept 2000
>
> ALL YOU NEED IS HATE
> An explosive documentary sheds new light on the tangled loves in the life
of
> John Lennon.
>
> She looks around the house she once lived in with John Lennon and shivers.
> "It's sad, full of ghosts," says Cynthia with a sigh, glancing back at the
> bedroom they shared just after their son Julian was born.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
*** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***
http://www.usenet.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Jack Chow
lot of respect for her as a lady. Yoko? Who is she?
Jack
Steve Foresman
clivew...@my-deja.com
car...@aol.com (CaroJ11) wrote:
> From www.mirror.co.uk
>
> Friday 29th Sept 2000
>
> ALL YOU NEED IS HATE
> An explosive documentary sheds new light on the tangled loves in the
life of
> John Lennon.
WOW !! If all that's true...it makes me so sad...I dont think I need to
know that kind of shite...
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Susan
puritians are going to spin this around.
Dave
via: www.mirror.co.uk
ALL YOU NEED IS HATE
<<An explosive documentary sheds new light on the tangled loves in the
life of John Lennon.>>
New double 'A' sided hit record soon to be released...the titles are:
Side 1: Cold Cash
Side 2: Don't Worry Kyoko, Mummy's Only Looking For Her Hand In The
Dough
(hehehe!)
Nyarlathotep
The truth is emerging!
TequilaMockingbird
Nyarlathotep <nyarla...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
> The truth is emerging!
It sure took it's time. How many times can the Yoko-phants call Cynthia
a liar?
TryTheWine
<20000930010659...@ng-ci1.aol.com>, car...@aol.com stated:
>
> From www.mirror.co.uk
>
OK, so these were normal people, with normal failings and normal problems.
Can we stop with this soap opera shit already?
NEXT!
interstate5
TryTheWine
<5518-39...@storefull-235.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, SunK...@webtv.net stated:
Don't forget "I'll be your Accountant," "Give Me Something (That's not Cheap)"
and "Approximately Infinite Net Worth".
interstate5
Johnny Dupe
>
> YOU can!.If the apparent truth is too painful have another
> drink,
What an all-time low in usenet discussion.
"Have another drink?"
What a fuckwit.
Token Boy
Nyarlathotep
Token Boy
Was this shortly before his death? Or was it much earlier?
"Nyarlathotep" <nyarla...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8r63et$o6l$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
paramucho
wrote:
>It should be interesting as well as amusing to see how the ever faithful
>puritians are going to spin this around.
Here you go Susan:
========
On 30 Sep 2000 05:06:59 GMT, car...@aol.com (CaroJ11) wrote:
>In a controversial new documentary, The Real John Lennon, it is revealed that
>his marriage to Yoko was on the rocks and he was planning to return to
>Liverpool. Ironically, Yoko had moved his belongings out of their apartment
>and was planning to divorce him as it has been revealed she had a long-term
>lover.
Nothing new.
>Friends and family talk about life with John. And in a frank interview
>Cynthia, 61, reveals her dislike of Yoko, whom she blames for wrecking her
>marriage and for keeping John and Julian, now 37, apart.
>
>"I knew there was nothing I could do to keep the marriage together because
>there were other forces, more powerful and devious than I was," says Cynthia.
Cynthia has said something very similar to this in the past, however I
don't recall the "devious" part. Source?
>She met John at the Liverpool College of Art in 1958 and they married when
>she fell pregnant in 1962.
When Yoko fell pregnant to Lennon it was seen, by her detractors, as a
way of capturing Lennon.
>John first saw Yoko when one of her quirky art exhibitions was featured on
>TV. He and Cynthia laughed at her as a "nutcase" but, intrigued by Yoko's
>wackiness, John went to see her show and struck up a friendship which quickly
>turned into an affair.
Nothing new here.
>"He'd receive letters from Yoko saying she couldn't handle things," says
>Cynthia. "She'd arrive and ask to use the phone, and come in and leave her
>ring behind. She did a number, she was determined."
Not much new. Hasn't there been similar stuff said about Linda.
>Cynthia recalls returning home from a week-long holiday with Julian to
>discover she had lost her husband to Yoko. "All the lights were on, we went
>in and shouted, 'Anybody home?' John and Yoko were sitting there, he was in a
>dressing gown and she was in a dressing gown. They just sat there as if
>everything was normal," she remembers.
Nothing new. Well reported.
>But worse was yet to come. After John relocated to New York, Cynthia got a
>call from Yoko. It was the start of a bitter ongoing feud between the two.
>
>"She said, 'John and I have decided that from now on I speak to you about
>Julian and he speaks to my ex-husband about my daughter Kyoko'. Then there
>was no contact for four years. Julian would watch TV and it would be, 'That's
>my daddy!' At school it was, 'My daddy is a Beatle'. But daddy wasn't having
>anything to do with him," she says quietly.
I don't recall this bit before. If true, it seems more a sad statement
about John more than Yoko or at least both of them.
>Cynthia was not the only one hurt by John and Yoko's bizarre relationship.
>Former personal assistant May Pang talks about her highly-publicised romance
>with John after his marriage to Yoko turned sour.
>
>"Yoko came into my office and said, 'John and I are not getting along. He's
>going to start going out with other people. You haven't got a boyfriend, John
>should go out with you'. I said, 'I don't want your husband'. She was
>laughing," recalls May. "Yoko kept saying, 'You two must get together'.
>Finally we ended up alone at my place, then he made moves."
Nothing new. Well known.
>John and May's ensuing affair has been described as his "lost weekend". In
>fact, it lasted for 18 months and the couple even moved in together.
>
>"Yoko wanted a divorce in February 1974," says May. "John came home and said,
>'I'm going to be a single man in six months'. One time he got angry with her
>and said, 'If we're going to get divorced let's do it quick, I've had it'.
>Three months went by and I said, 'What happened with the divorce?' He said
>Yoko had said the time wasn't right, it wasn't in the stars."
I recall this passage, but there's not much new in it.
>Like Cynthia, May claims that Yoko, who is depicted in the documentary as
>cold and calculating, exploited John's weaknesses - the deaths of his mum
>Julia, killed by a drink driver when John was 17, and close friend Stuart
>Sutcliffe.
Hmmm, I think I've read the passages referred to here and I'd reckon
that the enumeration of "John's weaknesses" were added in the article.
Again, it's well known that May thinks Yoko exploited John's
weaknesses and believes that Yoko had John hypnotised into staying.
>John later went back to Yoko and the couple hired another personal assistant,
>Fred Seaman. He describes the odd life of the Lennon household. "It's said
>that Yoko returned to the apartment after giving birth to their son Sean,"
>says Fred. "She handed him the baby, and said, 'I did my part, now it's your
>turn'. John told me he'd retired from music, he was tired of being
>competitive and felt it would be an opportunity to be a better father to Sean
>than he'd been to Julian.
Seaman was not present until well after Sean's birth. But, in any
case, Lennon was a modern man and happy to be a househusband. So what.
>"I didn't get the impression that he was happy, I had the feeling he was
>frustrated because he wasn't getting very much physical affection from Yoko.
>He talked about renewing his relationship with May."
That's probably true, but no big deal.
>Yoko's control extended even after his death. John's half-sister Julia Baird
>says, "Yoko did not want any of the family at that funeral. We were totally
>excluded."
Actually, I didn't know that funerals were an "invite" affair, but
Ono's treatment, from these accounts, does seem insensitive. I'd want
to have the other side of the story before coming to a judgement.
>His cousin Stanley Parkes adds, "We had a letter from John saying,
>'I'm coming home...I'm going to look after my own family for a change'."
Interesting, but irrelevant.
>Cynthia sums up the anger which has haunted his family ever since. "After
>John got shot there was a phone call from Yoko wanting to speak to Julian,"
>she says. "He was very distressed and said, 'Mum, Yoko wants me to go to the
>funeral'. I said, 'Do you want me to go with you?' He said yes. I told Yoko I
>didn't think he was in any fit state to go to America alone and she said,
>'Look, Cynthia, if you come he won't be coming - it's not as if you're an old
>school friend of mine, is it?' I couldn't believe what I was hearing."
Well, if true, that certainly sucks. But again, in family matters I'd
want to hear both sides of the story before coming to a judgement.
>Yoko was invited to appear in the documentary but, unsurprisingly, she
>declined.
Yeah, why walk into a room full of hatchets of your own choice.
>The Real John Lennon, Saturday, C4, 9pm.
=====================
Always happy to oblige.
Ian
Glitterstim Rage
>puritians are going to spin this around.
I wonder what Commissar Schwartz has to say about the documentary? I wish Paul
and George were interviewed for the Real Lennon.
Glitterstim Rage
Celebrity funerals always involve invitations. Otherwise, fans would crash the
gate. Yoko was pissed that she wasn't invited to Linda's memorial service.
paramucho
Rage) wrote:
Did they have a funeral for John?
Ian
Lisa
> Did they have a funeral for John?
>
> Ian
Hell no! Yoko instead asked for 10 minutes of silence to start at 2
p.m. Eastern Standard Time on December 14. There was also a tribute at
Liverpool's St. George's Hall the same day.
Sometimes I wonder if that was the right thing to do, as a funeral is
frequently psychologically important for people to get a sense of
closure after a death.
Lisa
--
Being your slave, what should I do but tend
Upon the hours and times of your desire?
***
So true a fool is love that in your will,
Though you do anything, he thinks no ill.
--Shakespeare, Sonnet 57
paramucho
wrote:
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
>
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>YOU can!.If the apparent truth is too painful have
>another drink,</blockquote>
>Go to another thread and stop trying to control what people wish to talk
>about.
Pain?
The only pain here is that caused by the monotonous repetition of the
same tired data over and over.
The idea that those who don't quite get with it in the Yoko-bashing
scene are somehow timid fans too scared to face the truth somehow
misses the point by a broadside. So why don't we get it straight for
once and for all:
I couldn't give a flying fuck if Yoko Ono was a maneuvering swine
(of John, Paul, Linda, George etc were as well).
I couldn't give a flying fuck if John Lennon used Heroin (or if Yoko,
Paul etc also used it).
I couldn't give a fuck if both of them were adulterous (or anybody
else for that matter). In fact, I recommend the practise.
I couldn't give a shit if John and/or Yoko neglected John's family and
relatives, although I would have preferred greatly that they hadn't.
I don't really care of John was an asshole to his first wife and his
first child, although I would have vastly preferred that he had
performed better in this regard. As I'm sure he would also have
wished.
As Trisha says, these are/were normal human beings with normal human
failings and some of us have normal human reactions to that. Others
seem to want to beat the shit out of it day after day, week after
week, month after month, year after year. That's their right just as
it's our right to say that it gives us the shits.
BTW: Your posts appear in my newsreader as an unreadable HTML blob.
Ian
paramucho
>paramucho wrote:
>> Did they have a funeral for John?
>>
>> Ian
>
>Hell no! Yoko instead asked for 10 minutes of silence to start at 2
>p.m. Eastern Standard Time on December 14. There was also a tribute at
>Liverpool's St. George's Hall the same day.
That's what I thought. So I wonder why Julia Baird says she was
excluded from the funeral?
>Sometimes I wonder if that was the right thing to do, as a funeral is
>frequently psychologically important for people to get a sense of
>closure after a death.
Well, I think there's lots of signs that many of us still need closure
on this particular issue. Myself included.
Ian
Lisa
>
> On Sun, 01 Oct 2000 01:20:34 -0700, Lisa <ba...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>
> >paramucho wrote:
> >> Did they have a funeral for John?
> >>
> >> Ian
> >
> >Hell no!
>
> excluded from the funeral?
I thought that statement was attributed to Cynthia in the original
article. (Unless there's something mentioned in Julia's "John Lennon,
My Brother," which I haven't read). Anyway, maybe 1) she misremembered,
2) Yoko hadn't decided not to have a funeral yet, 3) she's been
misquoted, 4) this story is a load of BS. I don't know.
>
> >Sometimes I wonder if that was the right thing to do, as a funeral is
> >frequently psychologically important for people to get a sense of
> >closure after a death.
>
> Well, I think there's lots of signs that many of us still need closure
> on this particular issue. Myself included.
Well, join the club. I suspect there's quite a few people who won't
really "get over it" until they die. Not to be morbid or anything...
paramucho
wrote:
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
>
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>
><p>Well, I think there's lots of signs that many of us still need closure
><br>on this particular issue. Myself included.
><p>Ian</blockquote>
>
><p><br>And some of us don't give a flying fuck.
><br> </html>
And some of us speak with HTMLed tongue :-)
Ian
Francie's Ghost
Amen, bro. Fascinating discussion, but what it's got to do with the music I
canna say.
As for the bathetic Cyn, isn't 30 years a bit overlong to air the old and
dirty laundry?
None of this will bring John back.
And as I remember, the Dragon Fly Lady had John's body cremated immediately.
She knew exactly what she could expect in the way of family support. Also she
knew what had happened to Jim Morrison's temporary resting place in Paris.
The site had become an eyesore, with stones defaced by graffiti groupies. No
better way to protect the envelope from vandals and cockfighting exes than
incinerate it. Energy can be neither destroyed nor created, right, Ian?
Perhaps GR or GB or FS can speculate on what Mrs. Lennon did with her
husband's ashes.
Find your own closure. Get on with it.
Francie's Ghost
--
http://sites.netscape.net/fabest
"Everybody has a heart... except for *some* people." (Bette Davis, ALL ABOUT
EVE)
Lisa
paramucho
<franc...@excite.com> wrote:
>And as I remember, the Dragon Fly Lady had John's body cremated immediately.
>She knew exactly what she could expect in the way of family support. Also she
>knew what had happened to Jim Morrison's temporary resting place in Paris.
>The site had become an eyesore, with stones defaced by graffiti groupies. No
>better way to protect the envelope from vandals and cockfighting exes than
>incinerate it. Energy can be neither destroyed nor created, right, Ian?
Correct, but it can be channelled Oh Ghost Who Talks.
Ian
D 28IF
>
>>"He'd receive letters from Yoko saying she couldn't handle things," says
>>Cynthia. "She'd arrive and ask to use the phone, and come in and leave her
>>ring behind. She did a number, she was determined."
>
>Not much new. Hasn't there been similar stuff said about Linda.
Actually, no. I don't recall ever hearing of Linda sending Paul letters that
she'd kill herself if Paul did not come to her right then and there; I don't
remember Linda dropping by Paul's home unannounced, leaving pieces of clothing
or jewellery as a ways to be invited back for more personal contact; I don't
recall Linda ever gaining access to Paul's home under the guise of needing to
make a phone call.
Where have you read or heard these things, Ian?
nowhere man
> Sometimes I wonder if that was the right thing to do, as a funeral is
> frequently psychologically important for people to get a sense of
> closure after a death.
I wholeheartedly agree. A funeral is necessary as part of the greaving
process and to enable closure. This was a Yoko boo boo. However, given
the trauma of the time, one can only begin to tryand understand what she
was going through.
Wil
nowhere man
> I couldn't give a flying fuck if Yoko Ono was a maneuvering swine
> (of John, Paul, Linda, George etc were as well).
>
> I couldn't give a flying fuck if John Lennon used Heroin (or if Yoko,
> Paul etc also used it).
>
> I couldn't give a fuck if both of them were adulterous (or anybody
> else for that matter). In fact, I recommend the practise.
>
> I couldn't give a shit if John and/or Yoko neglected John's family and
> relatives, although I would have preferred greatly that they hadn't.
>
> I don't really care of John was an asshole to his first wife and his
> first child, although I would have vastly preferred that he had
> performed better in this regard. As I'm sure he would also have
> wished.
>
> As Trisha says, these are/were normal human beings with normal human
> failings and some of us have normal human reactions to that. Others
> seem to want to beat the shit out of it day after day, week after
> week, month after month, year after year. That's their right just as
> it's our right to say that it gives us the shits.
frig...........jeepers creepers. Never saw so many flying f thingies
before.
<okay back to post> Bravo, bravo...well spoken.
nowhere man
> >From: i...@beathoven.com (paramucho)
>
> >
> >>"He'd receive letters from Yoko saying she couldn't handle things," says
> >>Cynthia. "She'd arrive and ask to use the phone, and come in and leave her
> >>ring behind. She did a number, she was determined."
> >
> >Not much new. Hasn't there been similar stuff said about Linda.
>
> Actually, no. I don't recall ever hearing of Linda sending Paul letters that
> she'd kill herself if Paul did not come to her right then and there; I don't
> remember Linda dropping by Paul's home unannounced,
I've heard that before i.e. the unannounced visits.
> leaving pieces of clothing
> or jewellery as a ways to be invited back for more personal contact;
heard that too.
> I don't
> recall Linda ever gaining access to Paul's home under the guise of needing to
> make a phone call.
heard that one as well.
I have heard of those things years ago...don't ask me where.
She was a conniver...no two ways about that.
The prog failed to answer the very underlying question that it raised. Why did
John accept all this? The prog relied on casting Yoko as the wicked witch of the
West <nothing new there>.
No-one wanted to blame John. If you want to blame someone, I believe a lot of it
should be piled at John's door.
Will <and I believe John would be honest enough to admit the same>
Steve Hawk
> D 28IF wrote:
>
>>> From: i...@beathoven.com (paramucho)
>>
>>>
>>>> "He'd receive letters from Yoko saying she couldn't handle things," says
>>>> Cynthia. "She'd arrive and ask to use the phone, and come in and leave her
>>>> ring behind. She did a number, she was determined."
>>>
>>> Not much new. Hasn't there been similar stuff said about Linda.
>>
>> Actually, no. I don't recall ever hearing of Linda sending Paul letters that
>> she'd kill herself if Paul did not come to her right then and there; I don't
>> remember Linda dropping by Paul's home unannounced,
>
> I've heard that before i.e. the unannounced visits.
>
>
>
>> leaving pieces of clothing
>> or jewellery as a ways to be invited back for more personal contact;
>
> heard that too.
>
>
>
>> I don't
>> recall Linda ever gaining access to Paul's home under the guise of needing to
>> make a phone call.
>
> heard that one as well.
>
> I have heard of those things years ago...don't ask me where.
>
> She was a conniver...no two ways about that.
>
> The prog failed to answer the very underlying question that it raised. Why
> did
> John accept all this? The prog relied on casting Yoko as the wicked witch of
> the
> West <nothing new there>.
>
> No-one wanted to blame John. If you want to blame someone, I believe a lot of
> it
> should be piled at John's door.
>
> Will <and I believe John would be honest enough to admit the same>
>
>
>
All I can say is I wish Yoko would never have gotten involved. I wish John
would've stayed with Cynthia. But I can't change that just like some of the
things I wish I wouldn't have done.
I do wonder how things would be if there was no Yoko in this Beatle story.
Be Well,
Steve
"life is very short and there's no time..for fussing and fighting my
friend."
http://artists2.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Steve_Hawk/
Stephen Carter
<fran...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
><html>
>
><blockquote TYPE=CITE>
><p>Well, I think there's lots of signs that many of us still need closure
><br>on this particular issue. Myself included.
><p>Ian</blockquote>
>
><p><br>And some of us don't give a flying fuck.
><br> </html>
.... and some of us post with our html switched off -
thanks! :-)
--
st...@stephencarterNOSPAM.net
Nothing is Beatle Proof!!
Stephen Carter
<ba...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>paramucho wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 01 Oct 2000 01:20:34 -0700, Lisa <ba...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>>
>> >paramucho wrote:
>> >> Did they have a funeral for John?
>> >>
>> >> Ian
>> >
>> >Hell no!
>>
>> That's what I thought. So I wonder why Julia Baird says she was
>> excluded from the funeral?
>
>I thought that statement was attributed to Cynthia in the original
>article. (Unless there's something mentioned in Julia's "John Lennon,
>My Brother," which I haven't read). Anyway, maybe 1) she misremembered,
>2) Yoko hadn't decided not to have a funeral yet, 3) she's been
>misquoted, 4) this story is a load of BS. I don't know.
In the TV programme, both Julia Baird and Cousin Stanley
assert very strongly that they were not invited to the
funeral.
Lisa
I suppose there's no way for us Yanks to see this, is there??
Nyarlathotep
> p.m. Eastern Standard Time on December 14. There was also a tribute
at
> Liverpool's St. George's Hall the same day.
>
> frequently psychologically important for people to get a sense of
> closure after a death.
Yes, a funeral for Lennon might have been good for his fans & loved
ones. Of course, Yoko -- who didn't fall into either camp -- failed to
discern this. And her revelry ("Is Sam downstairs? Send him up!")
began immediately.
Nyarlathotep
Lisa <ba...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>
>
> Francie's Ghost wrote:
> > Francie's Ghost
> > --
> > http://sites.netscape.net/fabest
>
> Francie, is that you?
If it is, it's outrageously hypocritical of her to instruct others
to "find closure" for anything (let alone Lennon's death)!
Nyarlathotep
It would be cool to have David Spinozza & Sam Green in a Yoko
documentary as well.
D 28IF
>D 28IF wrote:
>
>> >From: i...@beathoven.com (paramucho)
>>
>> >
>> >>"He'd receive letters from Yoko saying she couldn't handle things," says
>> >>Cynthia. "She'd arrive and ask to use the phone, and come in and leave
>her
>> >>ring behind. She did a number, she was determined."
>> >
>> >Not much new. Hasn't there been similar stuff said about Linda.
>>
>> Actually, no. I don't recall ever hearing of Linda sending Paul letters
>that
>> she'd kill herself if Paul did not come to her right then and there; I
>don't
>> remember Linda dropping by Paul's home unannounced,
>
>I've heard that before i.e. the unannounced visits.
>
>
>
>> leaving pieces of clothing
>> or jewellery as a ways to be invited back for more personal contact;
>
>heard that too.
>
>
>
>> I don't
>> recall Linda ever gaining access to Paul's home under the guise of needing
>to
>> make a phone call.
>
>heard that one as well.
>
>I have heard of those things years ago...don't ask me where.
Sorry, as you and others have so often done, I'll have to ask that you do,
indeed, mention your sources for these stories.
>
>She was a conniver...no two ways about that.
Uh-huh.
________
It is one of the paradoxes of reverence that we always wish to know the most
intimate details of those we idolize, even when the details are not
flattering..." Jonathan Cott & David Dalton, "Rolling Stone", 7/9/70
D 28IF
> Lisa <ba...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>> paramucho wrote:
>> > Did they have a funeral for John?
>> >
>> > Ian
>>
>> Hell no! Yoko instead asked for 10 minutes of silence to start at 2
>> p.m. Eastern Standard Time on December 14. There was also a tribute
>at
>> Liverpool's St. George's Hall the same day.
>>
>> Sometimes I wonder if that was the right thing to do, as a funeral is
>> frequently psychologically important for people to get a sense of
>> closure after a death.
>
> Yes, a funeral for Lennon might have been good for his fans & loved
>ones. Of course, Yoko -- who didn't fall into either camp -- failed to
>discern this. And her revelry ("Is Sam downstairs? Send him up!")
>began immediately.
>
>
Oh, come on! It would have been a circus atmosphere if she'd held a funeral. I
don't think that decision was wrong. But having a private memorial for his
family might have been a nice idea. Something not unlike what Paul did for
Linda. Only she needn't have pre-announced anything. She could have done
something in Liverpool or London, to include the Lennon and Stanley family
members. The press probably wouldn't have found out until it was done.
I just started reading Sam Leach's book "The Birth of the Beatles." According
to him, he organised a Lennon memorial concert in Liverpool, including a silent
vigil, before he'd known about Yoko's plans. He writes that when Yoko found out
about it, she timed her requested 10-minute vigil to take place simulateously
with Leach's.
D 28IF
>
> It would be cool to have David Spinozza & Sam Green in a Yoko
>documentary as well.
>
Considering how just about anyone who's had even the slightest connection to a
Beatle has been interviewed in some way or another, I'm surprised I've never
read an interview by either of these two men.
sirmu...@my-deja.com
Nyarlathotep <nyarla...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <39D736E4...@azstarnet.com>,
> Lisa <ba...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Francie's Ghost wrote:
> > > Francie's Ghost
> > > --
> > > http://sites.netscape.net/fabest
> >
> > Francie, is that you?
>
> If it is, it's outrageously hypocritical of her to instruct
others
> to "find closure" for anything (let alone Lennon's death)!
Not to mention her line...
>As for the bathetic Cyn, isn't 30 years a bit overlong to air the old
>and dirty laundry?
Hmmm.
Nyarlathotep
UsurperTom
>So I wonder why Julia Baird says she was
>excluded from the funeral?
There might have been a private gathering at the crematorium.
Tom
paramucho
wrote:
>On Sun, 01 Oct 2000 01:54:52 -0700, Lisa
><ba...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>
>>paramucho wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, 01 Oct 2000 01:20:34 -0700, Lisa <ba...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >paramucho wrote:
>>> >> Did they have a funeral for John?
>>> >>
>>> >> Ian
>>> >
>>> >Hell no!
>>>
>>> That's what I thought. So I wonder why Julia Baird says she was
>>> excluded from the funeral?
>>
>>I thought that statement was attributed to Cynthia in the original
>>article. (Unless there's something mentioned in Julia's "John Lennon,
>>My Brother," which I haven't read). Anyway, maybe 1) she misremembered,
>>2) Yoko hadn't decided not to have a funeral yet, 3) she's been
>>misquoted, 4) this story is a load of BS. I don't know.
>
>In the TV programme, both Julia Baird and Cousin Stanley
>assert very strongly that they were not invited to the
>funeral.
But if there wasn't a funeral, how could they be excluded?
Ian
UsurperTom
>Where have you read or heard these things, Ian?
In fairness to Ian, Peter Brown and Steven Gaines' "The Love You Make"
describes Linda's chicanery in her attempt to woo Paul. In June 1968, Paul and
Ron Kass were in Los Angeles for a meeting with Capitol Records. Paul spent a
weekend in the Beverly Hills Hotel banging a blonde Hollywood starlet and a
black hooker. Kass, the authors' source for the story, called this adventure
"The Paul McCartney Black and White Minstrel Show." Linda then visited the
hotel suite and Paul asked the two women to leave so he could now fuck Linda.
Brown also said that Linda bombarded Paul with letters and pictures throughout
the summer of 1968. Francie also says that Linda called Paul during this
period and Paul found her annoying.
Albert Goldman said that Linda was the groupie whose suitcase Paul chucked over
the wall. Barry Miles, one of Goldman's sources, is believed to have been the
one who fed this information to Goldman.
Tom
Rusnak2938
that his marriage to Yoko was on the rocks and he was planning to return to
Liverpool.
Maybe at least he was thinking of returning to England. Wish he'd made it.
I doubt any of the Fabs would move back to Liverpool. Sorry, Liverpudlians, but
you know, none of them has been there much in the past 30 years... I'm just
conjecturing about John based on this pattern. I have no bad feelings about the
place. Never even been there.
<A HREF="http://oldworldrus.com">Old World Rus'</a>
Diana
>>>Cynthia. "She'd arrive and ask to use the phone, and come in and leave
>>>her ring behind. She did a number, she was determined."
>>
>>Not much new. Hasn't there been similar stuff said about Linda.
No. Not even remotely similar.
- - - - -
A loving person lives in a loving world.
A hostile person lives in a hostile world.
Everyone you meet is your mirror.
-- Ken Keyes, Jr.
d.
rusna...@aol.comNOSPAM (Rusnak2938) wrote:
> >In a controversial new documentary, 'The Real John Lennon', it is revealed
> that his marriage to Yoko was on the rocks and he was planning to return to
> Liverpool.
>
> Maybe at least he was thinking of returning to England. Wish he'd made it.
>
> I doubt any of the Fabs would move back to Liverpool. Sorry, Liverpudlians,
> but you know, none of them has been there much in the past 30 years...
On the contrary, Paul owns a home there, and visits often.
--
northcut at mindspring dot com
Three ornaments of wisdom: abundance of knowledge, a number of precedents,
to employ good counsel -the Triads of Ireland
Diana
>>So I wonder why Julia Baird says she was
>>excluded from the funeral?
>
>There might have been a private gathering at the crematorium.
Yoko wasn't even there. The ashes were sent to her. Though, from my limited
experience with cremation, families don't attend. It's weird. Burials are so
maudlin and awful. Very upsetting. But spreading the ashes of a loved one
is....I don't know....liberating. When we buried the remains of my aunt and
uncle, we drank champagne and poured the last mouthful from each of our glasses
into the ground where we'd put the ashes. It was peaceful and seemed like the
perfect thing to do.
d.
(UsurperTom) wrote:
> D28IF wrote:
>
> >Where have you read or heard these things, Ian?
>
> In fairness to Ian, Peter Brown and Steven Gaines' "The Love You Make"
> describes Linda's chicanery in her attempt to woo Paul. In June 1968, Paul
> and Ron Kass were in Los Angeles for a meeting with Capitol Records. Paul
> spent a weekend in the Beverly Hills Hotel banging a blonde Hollywood starlet and a
> black hooker. Kass, the authors' source for the story, called this
> adventure "The Paul McCartney Black and White Minstrel Show." Linda then visited the
> hotel suite and Paul asked the two women to leave so he could now fuck
> Linda.
You have such a lovely way of wording things. ;) In any case there is no
"chicanery," as you put it, in Linda's behavior in this story. However she
showed up - other sources have said that he in fact invited her - obviously he
wanted her there. ;)
> Brown also said that Linda bombarded Paul with letters and pictures
> throughout the summer of 1968. Francie also says that Linda called Paul during this
> period and Paul found her annoying.
Source, please? I've never seen Francie say that. In "Body Count" she recalls
a conversation where Paul spoke highly of Linda. Several times online she has
mentioned that Linda sent Paul records and that he enjoyed receiving these.
The Walrus was Danny
According
> to him, he organised a Lennon memorial concert in Liverpool, including a
silent
> vigil, before he'd known about Yoko's plans.
Sam Leach the bastard, he (and Alan Williams) pulled the plug on me and my
mate Chris Carter when we'd done Ticket to Ride, If I Fell and half of
Strawberry FF coz he though the sound wasn't good. We had the audience of 50
grand or so singing along, and he put a Liverpool Band on called 'Fraid of
Mice who played their own songs and killed the event.
I played the gig thanks to Bob Wooler who booked me and Chris to play.
Danny
Aitch
>
> On Sun, 01 Oct 2000 18:08:22 +0800, Aitch <fran...@iinet.net.au>
> wrote:
>
> ><!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
> ><html>
> >
> ><blockquote TYPE=CITE>
> ><p>Well, I think there's lots of signs that many of us still need closure
> ><br>on this particular issue. Myself included.
> ><p>Ian</blockquote>
> >
> ><p><br>And some of us don't give a flying fuck.
> ><br> </html>
>
>
> Ian
There you go Ian.
cheers,
Aitch :)
paramucho
>>From: i...@beathoven.com (paramucho)
>
>>
>>>"He'd receive letters from Yoko saying she couldn't handle things," says
>>>Cynthia. "She'd arrive and ask to use the phone, and come in and leave her
>>>ring behind. She did a number, she was determined."
>>
>>Not much new. Hasn't there been similar stuff said about Linda.
>
>Actually, no. I don't recall ever hearing of Linda sending Paul letters that
>she'd kill herself if Paul did not come to her right then and there; I don't
>remember Linda dropping by Paul's home unannounced, leaving pieces of clothing
>or jewellery as a ways to be invited back for more personal contact; I don't
>recall Linda ever gaining access to Paul's home under the guise of needing to
>make a phone call.
>
>Where have you read or heard these things, Ian?
I said "similar" stuff, not "exact" stuff. Let me restate my question
a little more fully just for you:
>Not much new. Hasn't there been similar stuff said about Linda, in the sense
>that she was also proactive in kick-starting the relationship with McCartney?
Others in this thread seem to have confirmed my vague memory. I don't
place much importance on the reports in either case. Love does strange
things to us all as do jealousy and the need to justify ourselves or
the need for revenge. All such reports are probably distorted
half-truths, be they aimed at Yoko, Linda or whoever. That was my
point.
Ian
nowhere man
> >From: nowhere man william_m...@lineone.net
>
>
> >I've heard that before i.e. the unannounced visits.
> >
> >
> >
> >> leaving pieces of clothing
> >> or jewellery as a ways to be invited back for more personal contact;
> >
> >heard that too.
> >
> >
> >
> >> I don't
> >> recall Linda ever gaining access to Paul's home under the guise of needing
> >to
> >> make a phone call.
> >
> >heard that one as well.
> >
> >I have heard of those things years ago...don't ask me where.
>
> Sorry, as you and others have so often done, I'll have to ask that you do,
> indeed, mention your sources for these stories.
good question...........yonks ago since I heard it. My memory is shit these
days.
Will
nowhere man
> >In a controversial new documentary, 'The Real John Lennon', it is revealed
> that his marriage to Yoko was on the rocks and he was planning to return to
> Liverpool.
>
> Maybe at least he was thinking of returning to England. Wish he'd made it.
I wish, as I have said many times before, that he had never left England :3(
Will
paramucho
wrote:
<thanks>Many thanks H.<\thanks>
<sig>Ian<\sig>
paramucho
>D28IF wrote:
>
>>Where have you read or heard these things, Ian?
>
>In fairness to Ian, Peter Brown and Steven Gaines' "The Love You Make"
>describes Linda's chicanery in her attempt to woo Paul. In June 1968, Paul and
>Ron Kass were in Los Angeles for a meeting with Capitol Records. Paul spent a
>weekend in the Beverly Hills Hotel banging a blonde Hollywood starlet and a
>black hooker. Kass, the authors' source for the story, called this adventure
>"The Paul McCartney Black and White Minstrel Show." Linda then visited the
>hotel suite and Paul asked the two women to leave so he could now fuck Linda.
>Brown also said that Linda bombarded Paul with letters and pictures throughout
>the summer of 1968.
Many thanks Tom. I guess these would be the reports I was thinking of,
which is still not to say I give the reports any credence, in either
case. Most of this stuff emerges from the never-ending stream
bitch-gloss-goss of the sort found in the recent Linda Bio.
> Francie also says that Linda called Paul during this
>period and Paul found her annoying.
I don't remember her saying that.
>Albert Goldman said that Linda was the groupie whose suitcase Paul chucked over
>the wall. Barry Miles, one of Goldman's sources, is believed to have been the
>one who fed this information to Goldman.
That's interesting. Do you recall where Goldman said that?
If true, then Miles was certainly mischievous in repeating the
anecdote in MYFN.
>Tom
Nyarlathotep
"Token Boy" <clark...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, don't have Fred's book, can't afford it.
>
> Was this shortly before his death? Or was it much earlier?
It was in 1980.
d.
> On 01 Oct 2000 22:58:54 GMT, usurp...@aol.com (UsurperTom) wrote:
>
> >D28IF wrote:
> >
> >>Where have you read or heard these things, Ian?
> >
> >In fairness to Ian, Peter Brown and Steven Gaines' "The Love You Make"
> >describes Linda's chicanery in her attempt to woo Paul. In June 1968,
> >Paul and Ron Kass were in Los Angeles for a meeting with Capitol Records. Paul
> >spent a weekend in the Beverly Hills Hotel banging a blonde Hollywood starlet and
> >a black hooker. Kass, the authors' source for the story, called this
> >adventure "The Paul McCartney Black and White Minstrel Show." Linda then visited
> >the hotel suite and Paul asked the two women to leave so he could now fuck
> >Linda. Brown also said that Linda bombarded Paul with letters and pictures
> >throughout the summer of 1968.
>
> Many thanks Tom. I guess these would be the reports I was thinking of,
> which is still not to say I give the reports any credence, in either
> case. Most of this stuff emerges from the never-ending stream
> bitch-gloss-goss of the sort found in the recent Linda Bio.
I guess what I'm confused about is how any of the above can be considered
"chicanery." Sounds to me like the attraction was mutual.
paramucho
>>>>"He'd receive letters from Yoko saying she couldn't handle things," says
>>>>Cynthia. "She'd arrive and ask to use the phone, and come in and leave
>>>>her ring behind. She did a number, she was determined."
>>>
>>>Not much new. Hasn't there been similar stuff said about Linda.
>
>No. Not even remotely similar.
From the THE LOVE YOU MAKE
On page 216:
On meeting McCartney she tries to stay but has to leave with the other
photographers.
She then bombards Paul's unlisted number with calls until "Pinkster"
disconnects the phones to get some sleep.
On page 271
After meeting McCartney in the U.S. Linda bombards Macca with a
campaign of calls and letters.
On page 272:
Linda Eastman kept the calls and letters coming...
On page 299:
They marry after Linda gets pregnant.
These are similar in the sense that they purport to show Linda
shamelessly chasing McCartney.
My point was that these kinds of accusation are relatively common. I
don't think any of them have much credibility, but they the Yoko
stories or the Linda stories.
Ian
Francie's Ghost
Nyarlathotep <nyarla...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > >As for the bathetic Cyn, isn't 30 years a bit overlong to air the old
> > >and dirty laundry?
> >
> > Hmmm.
>
> Psychologists call it "projection."
>
>
No. *Projectionists* call it projection.
Cluck, cluck, cluck!
--
http://sites.netscape.net/fabest
"Everybody has a heart... except *some* people." (Bette Davis, ALL ABOUT EVE)
nowhere man
very interesting similarities Ian. Thanks for posting this.
Will
D 28IF
>> My point was that these kinds of accusation are relatively common. I
>> don't think any of them have much credibility, but they the Yoko
>> stories or the Linda stories.
>
>very interesting similarities Ian. Thanks for posting this.
>
While I still don't see these in the same league as going to a home uninvited
and leaving a watch, so you'll have to return later; or standing outside
someone's home constantly, waiting for their attention; or writing notes saying
you're going to kill yourself unless they come to see you - I still appreciate
the listing you gave, Ian.
D 28IF
>
>No. *Projectionists* call it projection.
>
>Cluck, cluck, cluck!
>
That rest didn't take long.
paramucho
>>From: nowhere man william_m...@lineone.net
>
>>> My point was that these kinds of accusation are relatively common. I
>>> don't think any of them have much credibility, but they the Yoko
>>> stories or the Linda stories.
>>
>>very interesting similarities Ian. Thanks for posting this.
>>
>
>While I still don't see these in the same league as going to a home uninvited
>and leaving a watch, so you'll have to return later; or standing outside
>someone's home constantly, waiting for their attention; or writing notes saying
>you're going to kill yourself unless they come to see you - I still appreciate
>the listing you gave, Ian.
I agree, however since I don't give either sets of reports any real
credence, I see them as similar: accusations that both girls were
overly proactive in securing the lad of their dreams.
None of us know what really happened (in either case), but I have the
feeling that the tables were turned on Lennon during the lost weekend
and that he was the one that had to do the crawling. Ain't love a
wonderful thing? So good for one's humility.
Love is strange.
Ian
UsurperTom
>Source, please?
She said it in one of her rmb posts not in "Body Count." Francie said that her
friends, Dana and Margot, were in the room when Linda called to ask for a plane
ticket and Paul made an annoyed face.
Tom
Lord Tim Brent
>
>The only pain here is that caused by the monotonous repetition of the
>same tired data over and over.
>
>The idea that those who don't quite get with it in the Yoko-bashing
>scene are somehow timid fans too scared to face the truth somehow
>misses the point by a broadside. So why don't we get it straight for
>once and for all:
>
>I couldn't give a flying fuck if Yoko Ono was a maneuvering swine
>(of John, Paul, Linda, George etc were as well).
>
>I couldn't give a flying fuck if John Lennon used Heroin (or if Yoko,
>Paul etc also used it).
>
>I couldn't give a fuck if both of them were adulterous (or anybody
>else for that matter). In fact, I recommend the practise.
>
>I couldn't give a shit if John and/or Yoko neglected John's family and
>relatives, although I would have preferred greatly that they hadn't.
>
>I don't really care of John was an asshole to his first wife and his
>first child, although I would have vastly preferred that he had
>performed better in this regard. As I'm sure he would also have
>wished.
>
>As Trisha says, these are/were normal human beings with normal human
>failings and some of us have normal human reactions to that. Others
>seem to want to beat the shit out of it day after day, week after
>week, month after month, year after year. That's their right just as
>it's our right to say that it gives us the shits.
>
>
>BTW: Your posts appear in my newsreader as an unreadable HTML blob.
>
>
>Ian
BRAVO!!!
Great post Ian.
Tim
--------------------
Duchy Of Grand Fenwick
The Church Beatle will now pass among you.
No foreign coins please.
UsurperTom
>If true, then Miles was certainly mischievous in repeating the
>anecdote in MYFN.
I don't have Goldman's "The Lives of John Lennon" in front of me, but I have
another book rehashed what Goldman said. Margaret Moser and Bill Crawford's
"Rock Stars Do the Dumbest Things" repeated the story in its section on Linda.
Personally, I think the section should have been about Paul, not Linda, since
Paul was the rock star of the marriage. John, George and Ringo also have
sections in the book. Here's the exact passage of the suitcase incident on p.
153.
When Linda came to visit Paul in London in 1968, Paul complained to a friend
that "an American groupie" was "flying in. I've thrown her out once,"
explained Paul, "had to throw her suitcase over the wall, but it's no good, she
keeps coming back."
END
UsurperTom
>I guess what I'm confused about is how any of the above can be considered
>"chicanery." Sounds to me like the attraction was mutual.
I never said that "chicanery" was a bad thing. Paul obviously fell for Linda,
but some sources say that John was her real target and Paul was taken for a
ride. Hence, Linda's alleged fling with John.
Tom
paramucho
I'll try this reply again....
I found the Goldman passage on page 343. Speaking about Linda he says:
When she had moved into Paul's house in St John's Wood in the fall
of 1968, he confided to Miles: "I hope it doesn't become a problem
because the last time she was over here, I had to throw her suitcase
over the wall."
The passage in MYFN reads:
Miles recorded a visit sometime in 1968 in his journals. He and Paul
had been discussing Zapple...
A beautiful girl looked in.... There were several semi-clad girls
walking about... "And there's another one, an American groupie,
flying in this evening. I've thrown her out once, had to throw
her suitcase over the wall, but it's no good, she keeps coming
back."
[McCartney, quoted from Miles' journal]
It's been unclear to me, until now, why Miles included this passage in
MYFN. I would now guess that he was either being very mischievous or
trying to set the record straight with regard to Goldman's assignment
of Linda as the "groupie" in question.
Ian
Ian
nowhere man
> I found the Goldman passage on page 343. Speaking about Linda he says:
>
> When she had moved into Paul's house in St John's Wood in the fall
> of 1968, he confided to Miles: "I hope it doesn't become a problem
> because the last time she was over here, I had to throw her suitcase
> over the wall."
>
> The passage in MYFN reads:
>
> Miles recorded a visit sometime in 1968 in his journals. He and Paul
> had been discussing Zapple...
>
> A beautiful girl looked in.... There were several semi-clad girls
> walking about... "And there's another one, an American groupie,
> flying in this evening. I've thrown her out once, had to throw
> her suitcase over the wall, but it's no good, she keeps coming
> back."
> [McCartney, quoted from Miles' journal]
>
> It's been unclear to me, until now, why Miles included this passage in
> MYFN. I would now guess that he was either being very mischievous or
> trying to set the record straight with regard to Goldman's assignment
> of Linda as the "groupie" in question.
Goldman had obvioulsy never been to 'the wall'
LOL
Arnold maybe, Paul....no.
paramucho
Further to my earlier reply: When did Moser/Crawford's book come out?
It has more information than could have been derived from the Goldman
book. If the book came out *before* MANY YEARS FROM NOW then it would
imply that they had their information direct from Miles or from
another source who had it directly from Miles.
It also occurs to me that Miles is being a little coy when he says
that he recorded the episode in his journal "sometime" in 1968. Surely
he could put a month or a season on it.
Ian
D 28IF
>>While I still don't see these in the same league as going to a home
>uninvited
>>and leaving a watch, so you'll have to return later; or standing outside
>>someone's home constantly, waiting for their attention; or writing notes
>saying
>>you're going to kill yourself unless they come to see you - I still
>appreciate
>>the listing you gave, Ian.
>
>I agree, however since I don't give either sets of reports any real
>credence, I see them as similar: accusations that both girls were
>overly proactive in securing the lad of their dreams.
>
>None of us know what really happened (in either case), but I have the
>feeling that the tables were turned on Lennon during the lost weekend
>and that he was the one that had to do the crawling. Ain't love a
>wonderful thing? So good for one's humility.
>
Well, I'll take the word of Cynthia Lennon. I don't recall anything she's
shared as every being disputed, let alone proved wrong.
>Love is strange.
>
Just as Paul and his stalker sang. ;-)
Francie's Ghost
d2...@aol.com (D 28IF) wrote:
> >From: i...@beathoven.com (paramucho)
>
>
> >Love is strange.
> >
>
> Just as Paul and his stalker sang. ;-)
>
>
I believe it was Mickey and Sylvia, not Paul and his stalker, who sang that
song, and made it a hit...
CaroJ11
Perhaps I'm wrong, but didn't we discuss this "suitcase incident" a month or so
back, with convincing proof coming in to say Francie was the "American groupie"
being discussed here? I know I posted something saying most of us had always
accepted---or maybe assumed---the girl was Linda, but someone said it was
definitely Francie, having learned this from Miles. I accepted the correction
because it made sense. I can't see Miles including this anecdote in MYFN---or
Paul allowing this to be repeated---were it about Linda. Anyone else? ---CarolJ
paramucho
>>From: i...@beathoven.com (paramucho)
>
>>>While I still don't see these in the same league as going to a home
>>uninvited
>>>and leaving a watch, so you'll have to return later; or standing outside
>>>someone's home constantly, waiting for their attention; or writing notes
>>saying
>>>you're going to kill yourself unless they come to see you - I still
>>appreciate
>>>the listing you gave, Ian.
>>
>>I agree, however since I don't give either sets of reports any real
>>credence, I see them as similar: accusations that both girls were
>>overly proactive in securing the lad of their dreams.
>>
>>None of us know what really happened (in either case), but I have the
>>feeling that the tables were turned on Lennon during the lost weekend
>>and that he was the one that had to do the crawling. Ain't love a
>>wonderful thing? So good for one's humility.
>>
>
>Well, I'll take the word of Cynthia Lennon. I don't recall anything she's
>shared as every being disputed, let alone proved wrong.
Yeah, I know, Cynthia is sacred and Yoko is a witch and life's a
bitch. I thought we already went through what Cynthia had to say,
which is when the Linda sub-thread started because I noted that the
same sort of stuff had been said about Linda.
If we are to believe these newspaper reports, then Cynthia's story
seems to have suddenly got a bit harsher than it used to be when she
played the nice guy in the middle. I'd want the new story verified.
You can choose to believe the bad stuff about Yoko to and ignore the
rest. Me, I see it *all* as tabloid stuff and I'd want to hear both
sides in any domestic issue involving love, inheritance and money,
whether it be regarding Yoko or Linda.
FWIW.
Ian
paramucho
<franc...@excite.com> wrote:
>In article <20001002070437...@ng-me1.aol.com>,
> d2...@aol.com (D 28IF) wrote:
>> >From: i...@beathoven.com (paramucho)
>>
>>
>> >Love is strange.
>> >
>>
>> Just as Paul and his stalker sang. ;-)
>>
>>
>
>I believe it was Mickey and Sylvia, not Paul and his stalker, who sang that
>song, and made it a hit...
And then it was Buddy Holly and his stalker who fell in love with it.
Buddy recorded it at home and it was finished off after he died. One
of my all time favorite songs. Fantastic.
Paul had already recorded an instrumental when he decided to add the
lyric with a new tune, helped by his stalker. It would have been
better had they sang it in tune. Not their finest hour, but there was
one other track that had a nice part in the middle that had exactly
the same three chord trick as "Love Is Strange".
Ian
Stephen Carter
<ba...@azstarnet.com> wrote:
>
>I suppose there's no way for us Yanks to see this, is there??
>
No idea.... you'll have to get one of your TV channels to
buy it from those nice people at Channel 4!
Mind you, slightly naughtily, it makes a change for us in
the UK to see something before the folk in the USA! Sorry.
:-)
--
st...@stephencarterNOSPAM.net
Nothing is Beatle Proof!!
Stephen Carter
>Oh, come on! It would have been a circus atmosphere if she'd held a funeral. I
>don't think that decision was wrong. But having a private memorial for his
>family might have been a nice idea. Something not unlike what Paul did for
>Linda. Only she needn't have pre-announced anything. She could have done
>something in Liverpool or London, to include the Lennon and Stanley family
>members. The press probably wouldn't have found out until it was done.
I agree. :-)
Stephen Carter
<thewalru...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>> I just started reading Sam Leach's book "The Birth of the Beatles."
>According
>> to him, he organised a Lennon memorial concert in Liverpool, including a
>silent
>> vigil, before he'd known about Yoko's plans.
>
>Sam Leach the bastard, he (and Alan Williams) pulled the plug on me and my
>mate Chris Carter when we'd done Ticket to Ride, If I Fell and half of
>Strawberry FF coz he though the sound wasn't good. We had the audience of 50
>grand or so singing along, and he put a Liverpool Band on called 'Fraid of
>Mice who played their own songs and killed the event.
>
>I played the gig thanks to Bob Wooler who booked me and Chris to play.
Last week you posted that you are 37.
John was murdered 20 years ago.
So, you played this gig aged 17..... ?
paramucho
<thewalru...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>> I just started reading Sam Leach's book "The Birth of the Beatles."
>According
>> to him, he organised a Lennon memorial concert in Liverpool, including a
>silent
>> vigil, before he'd known about Yoko's plans.
>
>Sam Leach the bastard, he (and Alan Williams) pulled the plug on me and my
>mate Chris Carter when we'd done Ticket to Ride, If I Fell and half of
>Strawberry FF coz he though the sound wasn't good. We had the audience of 50
>grand or so singing along, and he put a Liverpool Band on called 'Fraid of
>Mice who played their own songs and killed the event.
>
>I played the gig thanks to Bob Wooler who booked me and Chris to play.
That sounds pretty cool. What instrument do you play?
Ian
Lisa
CaroJ11 wrote:
>
> Perhaps I'm wrong, but didn't we discuss this "suitcase incident" a month or so
> back, with convincing proof coming in to say Francie was the "American groupie"
> being discussed here? I know I posted something saying most of us had always
> accepted---or maybe assumed---the girl was Linda, but someone said it was
> definitely Francie, having learned this from Miles. I accepted the correction
> because it made sense. I can't see Miles including this anecdote in MYFN---or
> Paul allowing this to be repeated---were it about Linda. Anyone else? ---CarolJ
Well, let's see. [Digs up old posts] There was the "Frank's Suitcase"
thread, way back in June, in which this came up. And then, two months
ago there was the "Who owned the suitcase?" thread, started when someone
asked about the suitcase story. The Miles story came up, and I thought
many of the posts suggested that it was neither Francie nor Linda who
had their suitcase thrown over the wall, if it in fact happened. In
fact, here's *your* exact words about it: "Maybe it was neither of
them!" Basically, if it was Linda, why would the story be in MYFN? And
Francie didn't make several trips to London, as suggested by the quote:
"And there's another one, an American groupie, flying in this evening.
I've thrown her out once, had to throw her suitcase over the wall, but
it's no good, she keeps coming back."
So, no, it's actually the opposite of "convincing proof that it was
Francie."
Lisa
paramucho
>>keeps coming back." -Usupertom
>
>Perhaps I'm wrong, but didn't we discuss this "suitcase incident" a month or so
>back, with convincing proof coming in to say Francie was the "American groupie"
>being discussed here? I know I posted something saying most of us had always
>accepted---or maybe assumed---the girl was Linda, but someone said it was
>definitely Francie, having learned this from Miles. I accepted the correction
>because it made sense. I can't see Miles including this anecdote in MYFN---or
>Paul allowing this to be repeated---were it about Linda. Anyone else? ---CarolJ
I can remember the suitcase issue being brought up many, many times,
but I don't recall the "convincing proof" you speak of at all.
In fact, the only thing which has made sense in this whole matter so
far has been a picture of the "wall" showing how difficult it would
have been to toss anything over it.
Ian
paramucho
>
>
>CaroJ11 wrote:
>
>>
>> Perhaps I'm wrong, but didn't we discuss this "suitcase incident" a month or so
>> back, with convincing proof coming in to say Francie was the "American groupie"
>> being discussed here? I know I posted something saying most of us had always
>> accepted---or maybe assumed---the girl was Linda, but someone said it was
>> definitely Francie, having learned this from Miles. I accepted the correction
>> because it made sense. I can't see Miles including this anecdote in MYFN---or
>> Paul allowing this to be repeated---were it about Linda. Anyone else? ---CarolJ
>
>
>Well, let's see. [Digs up old posts] There was the "Frank's Suitcase"
>thread, way back in June, in which this came up. And then, two months
>ago there was the "Who owned the suitcase?" thread, started when someone
>asked about the suitcase story. The Miles story came up, and I thought
>many of the posts suggested that it was neither Francie nor Linda who
>had their suitcase thrown over the wall, if it in fact happened. In
>fact, here's *your* exact words about it: "Maybe it was neither of
>them!" Basically, if it was Linda, why would the story be in MYFN? And
>Francie didn't make several trips to London, as suggested by the quote:
>"And there's another one, an American groupie, flying in this evening.
>I've thrown her out once, had to throw her suitcase over the wall, but
>it's no good, she keeps coming back."
>
>So, no, it's actually the opposite of "convincing proof that it was
>Francie."
Hey, don't use logic around here :-)
It's like a crucifix to a vampire.
In fact, this is clearly a case for Buffy, the Suitcase Slayer.
Ian (She Went Out Through The Wall-thrown Suitcase)
Francie's Ghost
i...@beathoven.com wrote:
> On 02 Oct 2000 11:04:37 GMT, d2...@aol.com (D 28IF) wrote:
>
> >>From: i...@beathoven.com (paramucho)
> >
> ... I'd want to hear both
> sides in any domestic issue involving love, inheritance and money,
> whether it be regarding Yoko or Linda.
>
> FWIW.
>
> Ian
>
>
Yeah, what 'e said.
PS: For the voyeurs: This is not Franny. She has *hired* me on a part-time
basis to write these posts. My full title is Francie's Ghost Writer. Haven't
quite mastered the sweetest part of her style. No pointers, please. --
Lord Tim Brent
<william_m...@lineone.net> wrote:
>Lisa wrote:
>
>> Sometimes I wonder if that was the right thing to do, as a funeral is
>> frequently psychologically important for people to get a sense of
>> closure after a death.
>
>I wholeheartedly agree. A funeral is necessary as part of the greaving
>process and to enable closure. This was a Yoko boo boo. However, given
>the trauma of the time, one can only begin to tryand understand what she
>was going through.
>
I still feel what was done was right.
Any funeral,no matter how private,woulda been a morbid circus,just as
bad as Elvis or Senna had,or what will happen tomorrow in Montreal
with Trudeau.
Lord Tim Brent
Rage) wrote:
>>It should be interesting as well as amusing to see how the ever faithful
>>puritians are going to spin this around.
>
>I wonder what Commissar Schwartz has to say about the documentary? I wish Paul
>and George were interviewed for the Real Lennon.
George is nothign more than a bitter old bastard,at least in
interviews.
He can not take that when John and Yoko became as one,as did Paul and
Linda,neither really had a place in their new lives for George.
nowhere man
> And then it was Buddy Holly and his stalker who fell in love with it.
> Buddy recorded it at home and it was finished off after he died. One
> of my all time favorite songs. Fantastic.
one of my all time faves too............they added that SUPERB guitar intro.
All time classic.
Will
nowhere man
> On Sun, 01 Oct 2000 15:37:41 +0100, nowhere man
> <william_m...@lineone.net> wrote:
>
> >Lisa wrote:
> >
> >> Sometimes I wonder if that was the right thing to do, as a funeral is
> >> frequently psychologically important for people to get a sense of
> >> closure after a death.
> >
> >I wholeheartedly agree. A funeral is necessary as part of the greaving
> >process and to enable closure. This was a Yoko boo boo. However, given
> >the trauma of the time, one can only begin to tryand understand what she
> >was going through.
> >
> I still feel what was done was right.
> Any funeral,no matter how private,woulda been a morbid circus,just as
> bad as Elvis or Senna had,or what will happen tomorrow in Montreal
> with Trudeau.
you might be right Tim.
Personally, i think it would have been a very dignified affair.......just
like Diana's funeral was.
I also feel that it would have meant closure. Too many of us are still
caught in some kind of limbo IMO
Will
nowhere man
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> nowhere man wrote:
> >
> > D 28IF wrote:
> > >
> > > >I've heard that before i.e. the unannounced visits.
> > > >
> > > >> leaving pieces of clothing or jewellery as a ways
> > > >> to be invited back for more personal contact;
> > > >
> > > >heard that too.
> > > >
> > > >> I don't recall Linda ever gaining access to Paul's
> > > >> home under the guise of needing to make a phone call.
> > > >
> > > >heard that one as well.
> > > >
> > > >I have heard of those things years ago...don't ask me where.
> > >
> > > Sorry, as you and others have so often done, I'll have to ask
> > > that you do, indeed, mention your sources for these stories.
> >
> > good question...........yonks ago since I heard it. My memory
> > is shit these days.
>
> I think there's a misunderstanding here. Will,
> you're saying you've heard those stories about Yoko
> not about Linda, right? I don't want to get into
> another argument and I won't ask you for sources if
> you're saying you've heard these stories about
> Linda. I'd just like to clear up a misunderstanding
> if that's what it is.
Laura, no probs......I maybe wrongly thought that D28 asked me if I knew
the source of where I had heard the Yoko stories......e..g. the leaving
of items in John's place in order to have an excuse back. That was what
I was answering anyroads. Sadly, I don't remember......many moons ago.
As for Linda, unfortunately I have never had much opportunity to read
much on her.
Will
d.
(UsurperTom) wrote:
That doesn't mean a damn thing.
--
northcut at mindspring dot com
Three ornaments of wisdom: abundance of knowledge, a number of precedents,
to employ good counsel -the Triads of Ireland
d.
(UsurperTom) wrote:
Man, Tom, don't ever change, OK? Sheesh.
d.
<franc...@excite.com> wrote:
> In article <northcut-F1801A...@news.giganews.com>,
> "d." <nort...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > >In fairness to Ian, Peter Brown and Steven Gaines' "The Love You Make"
> > > >describes Linda's chicanery in her attempt to woo Paul. In June 1968,
> > > >Paul and Ron Kass were in Los Angeles for a meeting with Capitol
> > > >Records. Paul spent a weekend in the Beverly Hills Hotel banging a blonde Hollywood
> > > >starlet and a black hooker. Kass, the authors' source for the story, called this
> > > >adventure "The Paul McCartney Black and White Minstrel Show." Linda
> > > >then visited the hotel suite and Paul asked the two women to leave so he could now
> > > >fuck Linda. Brown also said that Linda bombarded Paul with letters and
> > > >pictures throughout the summer of 1968.
> > >
>
>
> HAWHAWHAW!
>
> Not the way it was talked about in L.A. when it was happening. Linda set up
> the Beverly Hills Hotel bungalow location when Paul said "Where?"
>
> Paul had nothing to do with hookers, and would never have attempted to make
> it with two women at once. He was always a one woman type of guy.
>
> Those two faggots yes they are both screaming fags, never had a clue. When
> Paul and or John told them these stories it was just to blow them off.
Your comments are very interesting and are appreciated, but I just wanted to
make clear that I didn't write the above. Usurper Tom did.
d.
(UsurperTom) wrote:
> d. wrote:
>
> >Not the way it was talked about in L.A. when it was happening.
>
> Were you there?
[rest snipped]
Dammit, I didn't write this. Francie did. Get your attributions straight,
people.
Jamie
> >From: Francie's Ghost franc...@excite.com
>
> >Those two faggots yes they are both screaming fags, never had a clue.
>
> If only this really was a ghost writer.
Yeah, it's nice to confirm that Francie apparently considered all that "free
love" Sixties philosophy stuff she was spouting total bullshit.
It's the defintion of irony: the same woman who branded Hazel (one of the most
open and kind people I have ever met, and who has never has a bad word to say
about anybody) a "Puritan" is a woman who then proves herself to be a hideous
homophobe.
--
~Jamie
Susan
>screaming fags, never had a clue.
So much for that breath of fresh air Danny. Who won this time, I
believe I gave her a week?
The Walrus was Danny
Guitar Ian. I thought you knew that. Currently a musician.though a down and
out one. I sing too, I can sing very well actually.
Danny
The Walrus was Danny
Yes I played the gig aged 17.
Danny