changing tempo in 'You Won't See Me'??

[andrea m koziol]

Since the esteemed Mr. Pollack is now analyzing songs from _Rubber Soul_ I
took another listen last night to the CD. And it hit me again, I really do
hear some of the refrains of 'You Won't See me" slowing down in some places.
Take a listen. The refrains before the bridge are played and sung at the
same tempo as the rest of the song. But after the first bridge, when Paul
sings "seems so long/ Girl since you've been gone/ And I just can't go on...."
the tempo slows down incrementally, just as if one had touched the label of
the vinyl record (remember this?)

Does anyone else hear this? My ear is pretty good but I don't have a metronome
to check this out. Has the esteemed Mr. Pollack done this song yet?

PS. An overlooked song is the next one - "The Word". Check out Paul's bass
work.
andrea
if...@midway.uchicago.edu

[Dave Wegman]

I agree. Although have a tape which is not quite as good for these things, I h
ear a gradual slow down. It is especially evident during "And I just can't go
on...". By the way, can someone fill me in on how to quote a message when repl
ying (i.e. "In blablbalbla, so and so writes: " and then a quote). I am kinda
new to posting.

-Dave

[Alan W Pollack]

Andrea K. writes:

>
> And it hit me again, I really do
>hear some of the refrains of 'You Won't See me" slowing down in some places.
>Take a listen. The refrains before the bridge are played and sung at the
>same tempo as the rest of the song. But after the first bridge, when Paul
>sings "seems so long/ Girl since you've been gone/ And I just can't go on...."
>the tempo slows down incrementally, just as if one had touched the label of
>the vinyl record (remember this?)
>
>Does anyone else hear this?

I honestly don't hear it, at least not in as strong and
obvious way that you report. I couldn't offhand insist
that there is absolutely *no* fluctuation of the tempo of
the sort that might be detected if you ran the recording
against a digital metronome. But I'd also argue that if
the song really slowed down "incrementally" during the
second half of it, you'd notice this pretty easily by
playing the beginning of it immediately following the
ending.

>Has the esteemed Mr. Pollack done this song yet?

> ^^^^^^^^

That's very kind but flattery alone won't get you
an Ace in the course; and besides my friends all call
me Doctor :-)

A Note on YWSM was posted way back in the early days
of the series; it's not as "thorough" as the later
articles but for what it's worth you can find it in
the archives.

>PS. An overlooked song is the next one - "The Word". Check out
>Paul's bass work.
>

Agreed! I'm in the midst of it for the next article.
If you're going to check it out, be sure to listen
at least once to each of the two stereo channels
by themselves; a revelation in how the recording
was pieced together. And a spoiler -- the bass work
you refer to consists of two slightly different but
complementary bass tracks, one on each channel.

As you say, check it out.

Alan (a...@world.std.com)

---
"I'll bet you're a great swimmer."
---

[Benjamin D. Lukoff]

if...@quads.uchicago.edu (andrea m koziol) writes:

>Since the esteemed Mr. Pollack is now analyzing songs from _Rubber Soul_ I

>took another listen last night to the CD. And it hit me again, I really do

>hear some of the refrains of 'You Won't See me" slowing down in some places.

...

>Does anyone else hear this? My ear is pretty good but I don't have a
metronome

>to check this out. Has the esteemed Mr. Pollack done this song yet?

Oh yeah, I can hear it very easily. The tempo of the song slows down
appreciably, and it's slightly annoying because you don't realise what is
going wrong the first or second time you hear the song. I've never
figured out why they did it that way....it *seems* deliberate...perhaps
they were slowing down to match the lyrics, "and I just can't go on....if
you won't see me."

-BDL

[Robert A. G. Seely]

>Andrea K. writes:
>
>>
>> And it hit me again, I really do
>>hear some of the refrains of 'You Won't See me" slowing down in some places.
>>Take a listen. The refrains before the bridge are played and sung at the
>>same tempo as the rest of the song. But after the first bridge, when Paul
>>sings "seems so long/ Girl since you've been gone/ And I just can't go on...."
>>the tempo slows down incrementally, just as if one had touched the label of
>>the vinyl record (remember this?)
>>
>>Does anyone else hear this?

I just listened to the song timing it as I went along - I did not "percieve"
the slowdown (the beat seemed natural and regular), but I noted 20 beats in
10 sec (roughly) whereas after the bridge this had dropped to about 18-19.
So a 5-10% slowdown (actually I ought to use reciprocals, but nevermind).

But I cannot say this has ever disturbed me - infact, if there is any effect
of slowdown it is so "right" that one doesn't notice it (well - I don't -
and if Alan P doesn't that puts me in good company :-} ).

-rags

[Luis Sandoval]

Yes, I've always heard the change in tempo also. Could this be another clever
edit by George Martin such as the one in "Strawberry Fields", with which many
of you are familiar. For those of you who are not:

During the recording of "Strawberry Fields" of all the many takes there were
two takes that John liked the best. On one John liked the first half and on
the second take he liked the second half. John asked George to spliced the
two sections, he liked, together. One problem, they were in different tempos!
So what George did was to slow down the tape of the section with the faster
tempo during the mixing process.

This is better explained, than I've attempted to do here, in the documentary
"The Compleat Beatles".

[Catherine Anne Foulston]

I hear *something* there. I can't tell if it's tempo or something
else, though. I think there's something else going on there, Paul
drawing the words out a bit more instead of keeping them crisp,
maybe other changes too, that could seem like tempo changes. But I
can only listen so many times when I'm supposed to be working. :-)

Cathy
--
Cathy Foulston + Rice University + Network & Systems Support + cat...@rice.edu

[kerr...@gmail.com]

Interesting I would find this old question. Yes I notice the variation in tempo. It is very obvious to me but I like it. I also like when they deliberately sing off key. Makes the music fun!

[JBL626]

Yes, we all noticed it, even 21 years ago when this thread started. It's especially noticeable if you start the song again after it ends.

But so what? They recorded it (or at least most of it) live in the studio, and it's all the more endearing for it.

It's not uncommon for a band to vary the tempo when playing live. I could cite dozens of rock and jazz examples where this happens. When playing in a band, the members get into a groove, they feed off one another, and these things happen.

I'd still rather have this take of the song than something tempo-corrected and all artificial-sounding via today's sterile studio techniques. It sounds like a song recorded by human beings, not one digitally doctored. The Mileys, Justins, and Britneys of today depend on such fabricated phoniness to disguise their lack of talent. The Beatles had too much talent to bother with disguising their flaws.

RUBBER SOUL was a miracle album in many ways. Sessions began on October 12, 1965 with less than half the songs yet to be composed. Sessions ended on November 15, and the album was in the shops by December 3rd.

What a rush job. What a masterpiece. What a testament to the Beatles' greatness.

So they dragged the tempo on one (great) song. So effing what.

(Trivia: It was also the Beatles' longest song recorded at that point, clocking in at about 3:20.)

John L.

[Eric Ramon]

The dip does seem to occur around 1:54 like this graph says!

http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOXDTTW12B20E5E516&artist=The+Beatles&title=You+Won%27t+See+Me

Lots of variation, especially compared to other songs like this one...

http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOGNNNL14441316A0A&artist=The+Beatles&title=I+Want+To+Hold+Your+Hand

and, for fun, here's what happens with Pete Best drumming...

http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOHRBFO13C6B5869C1&artist=The+Beatles&title=Besame+Mucho

[abeslaney]

On 5/29/14, 1:06 PM, Eric Ramon wrote:

> and, for fun, here's what happens with Pete Best drumming...
>
> http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOHRBFO13C6B5869C1&artist=The+Beatles&title=Besame+Mucho

That's kind of a cool little utility there.

[Nil]

On 29 May 2014, Eric Ramon <ramon...@gmail.com> wrote in
rec.music.beatles:

> The dip does seem to occur around 1:54 like this graph says!
>
> http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOXDTTW12B20E5E516&artist=The+Beatles&title=You+Won%27t+See+Me

Interesting stuff! I remember plotting that out myself a while back.
In my recording software you can place markers at the beat or
measure points and plot out a tempo map. It came up with the same
conclusion, though I had forgotten just how much they slowed down! I
wonder how that happened? To tell the truth, I never really noticed
it until it was pointed out to me. That tells me that the song works
well despite the flaw.

> Lots of variation, especially compared to other songs like this
> one...
>
> http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOGNNNL14441316A0A&artist=The+Beatles&title=I+Want+To+Hold+Your+Hand

That's pretty amazing. Ringo is pretty amazing!

I recently recorded my own version of I Want to Hold Your Hand as a
demo from my band. I started off with a MIDI file that I found on
the net so I would have a drum track to play along with. Whoever
made it slowed WAAAYY down during the bridge sections. I know that
it's common to do things like slow down the verse and speed up the
chorus, but this just sounded wrong. It wasn't until I made the
tempo consistent throughout the whole song that it sounded right to
me. The above justifies my instinct.

> and, for fun, here's what happens with Pete Best drumming...
>
> http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOHRBFO13C6B5869C1&artist=The+Beatles&title=Besame+Mucho

For those who insist he was good enough to keep the beat in the
early days, which was all that was required of a drummer...

[RichL]

"Eric Ramon" <ramon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4bc5ea45-124d-4054...@googlegroups.com...

> and, for fun, here's what happens with Pete Best drumming...
>
> http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOHRBFO13C6B5869C1&artist=The+Beatles&title=Besame+Mucho

Holy shit! That's all I can say.

[Kaili]

Like Ringo said, when Jeff Lynne asked him to play to a click track:"I AM the fucking click track!"

[BlackMonk]

On 5/29/2014 1:06 PM, Eric Ramon wrote:

>
> and, for fun, here's what happens with Pete Best drumming...
>
> http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOHRBFO13C6B5869C1&artist=The+Beatles&title=Besame+Mucho
>

Here's Keith Moon on My Generation:
http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOUHKWG144BDD616A3&artist=The+Who&title=My+Generation

[Kaili]

Moon was many things, but not a machine. The only time he could keep solid time is when he was playing with taped keyboards.

[JBL626]

On Thursday, May 29, 2014 12:06:23 PM UTC-5, Eric Ramon wrote:
>

> Lots of variation, especially compared to other songs like this one...
>
>
>
> http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOGNNNL14441316A0A&artist=The+Beatles&title=I+Want+To+Hold+Your+Hand

Um...am I missing something? IWTHYH runs 2:24, not 3:25.

JL

[JBL626]

This seems more like it:

http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOITPFO141E94F2CBB&artist=The+Beatles&title=I+WANT+TO+HOLD+YOUR+HAND

[JBL626]

Really? With Paul drumming?

http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOEUVRE133EB86AAC0&artist=The+Beatles&title=Back+in+the+U.S.S.R.

[cuppajoe2go]

Interesting....
http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOFOOJM12B20E5E502&artist=The+Beatles&title=I+Want+You+%28She%27s+So+Heavy%29

Alright! This can go on all night.

[RichL]

"poisoned rose" <pro...@poisonedrose.com> wrote in message
news:prose99-69A694...@5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com...

> Kaili <belly...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> > Here's Keith Moon on My Generation:
>> >
>> > http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOUHKWG144BDD616A3&artist=The+Who&tit
>> > le=My+Generation
>>
>> Moon was many things, but not a machine. The only time he could keep
>> solid
>> time is when he was playing with taped keyboards.
>

> I think that song was SUPPOSED to get faster. In the same way it jacked
> up the excitement level by changing keys.

My thoughts exactly!

That being said, here's another one from The Who from roughly the same time
period (Happy Jack):

<http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOIQZKJ13E905C9068&artist=The+Who&title=Happy+Jack>

Again you might argue that it's SUPPOSED to get faster in the choruses.
It'd be interesting to see how those line up with the peaks and valleys.

[BeatleEd]

JBL626 <Car...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Really? With Paul drumming?
>
> http://labs.echonest.com/click/?songId=SOEUVRE133EB86AAC0&artist=The+Be
> atles&title=Back+in+the+U.S.S.R.
>

That's ASTOUNDING!