McCartney's Bass Influences

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Norbert K

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Sep 24, 2023, 6:39:22 AMSep 24
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Norbert K

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Sep 24, 2023, 6:49:17 AMSep 24
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On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 3:39:22 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/two-bassists-influenced-paul-mccartney/

I've said it before, but Brian Wilson didn't play any of the basslines on Pet Sounds; they are the work of Carol Kaye and several others.

Bruce

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Sep 25, 2023, 1:08:21 AMSep 25
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According to this on Wikipedia he did play bass on "That's Not Me." On the rest of the songs it was either Carol Kaye or Ray Pohlman.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_Sounds

Brian Wilson – vocals; plucked piano strings on "You Still Believe in Me"; bass guitar, Danelectro bass, and organ on "That's Not Me"; piano on "Pet Sounds"; overdubbed organ or harmonium on "I Know There's an Answer"

Norbert K

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Sep 25, 2023, 8:36:17 AMSep 25
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There's some dispute over who played bass on which Pet Sounds song, but I'll assume Wikipedia is right on that one and that I was mistaken. There are apparently two bassists on "God Only Knows": Ray Pohlman and Lyle Ritz, with Ritz on upright bass.



Norbert K

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Sep 25, 2023, 9:14:36 AMSep 25
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On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 3:39:22 AM UTC-7, Norbert K wrote:
> https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/two-bassists-influenced-paul-mccartney/

With regard to Motown bassist James Jamerson, McCartney's effusive praise for him led to a tribute book/tape project called "Standing in the Shadows of Motown," to which lots of famous bassists -- McCartney, Jack Bruce, Geddy Lee, John Entwistle, and many others -- contributed. A bit later, a movie of the same title was made about Jamerson and other important Motown musicians.

While Entwistle agreed to participate in the project, he admitted that he had not particularly been influenced by Jamerson: "He was a proper bassist," the Ox said, "and I never considered myself a proper bassist."

Bruce

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Sep 25, 2023, 4:33:20 PMSep 25
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On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:14:36 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:

> With regard to Motown bassist James Jamerson, McCartney's effusive praise for him led to a tribute book/tape project called "Standing in the Shadows of Motown," to which lots of famous bassists -- McCartney, Jack Bruce, Geddy Lee, John Entwistle, and many others -- contributed. A bit later, a movie of the same title was made about Jamerson and other important Motown musicians.

What makes you think that McCartney's praise had anything to do with Slutsky deciding to write the book?



Norbert K

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Sep 26, 2023, 6:36:41 AMSep 26
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There were probably additional factors, but very few people even knew the name James Jamerson before McCartney cited him as an influence in interviews. Even after being in Motown cover bands, Slutsky didn't know the name at first.

If you look at the cover of the book, McCartney is the first bassist (after Jamerson's son) named. In the tapes that came with the book, McCartney's is the first voice you hear.

There's video of Slutsky (available on Youtube) saying (I'm paraphrasing) that everyone considered his project a folly -- until they saw the name Paul McCartney on the cover -- at which point "They were staggered. This was a big deal."



Bruce

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Sep 26, 2023, 11:15:40 AMSep 26
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On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 6:36:41 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
> On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 1:33:20 PM UTC-7, Bruce wrote:
> > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:14:36 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
> >
> > > With regard to Motown bassist James Jamerson, McCartney's effusive praise for him led to a tribute book/tape project called "Standing in the Shadows of Motown," to which lots of famous bassists -- McCartney, Jack Bruce, Geddy Lee, John Entwistle, and many others -- contributed. A bit later, a movie of the same title was made about Jamerson and other important Motown musicians.
> > What makes you think that McCartney's praise had anything to do with Slutsky deciding to write the book?
> There were probably additional factors, but very few people even knew the name James Jamerson before McCartney cited him as an influence in interviews. Even after being in Motown cover bands, Slutsky didn't know the name at first.

Lots of people knew the name. I certainly did in the 1970s. I was too young to know it in the 60s. I barely turned 12 as the 60s ended.

> If you look at the cover of the book, McCartney is the first bassist (after Jamerson's son) named. In the tapes that came with the book, McCartney's is the first voice you hear.
>
> There's video of Slutsky (available on Youtube) saying (I'm paraphrasing) that everyone considered his project a folly -- until they saw the name Paul McCartney on the cover -- at which point "They were staggered. This was a big deal."

"Everyone" meaning all the white guitar rock fans he knew. If true it's really a shame that white people can only appreciate a genius black performer if some superstar white guy endorses him. I hate that shit where they use names of white stars like Eric Clapton in order to validate great black performers like Robert Johnson.

James Jamerson does not need to be validated by some white superstar. His work stands on its own.

Bruce

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Sep 26, 2023, 11:18:31 AMSep 26
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On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 6:36:41 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
>
> There's video of Slutsky (available on Youtube) saying (I'm paraphrasing) that everyone considered his project a folly -- until they saw the name Paul McCartney on the cover -- at which point "They were staggered. This was a big deal."

By the way, if you're gonna mention Youtube video as proof, why wouldn't you post the link to that video?

Norbert K

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Sep 26, 2023, 2:40:28 PMSep 26
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On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 8:15:40 AM UTC-7, Bruce wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 6:36:41 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
> > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 1:33:20 PM UTC-7, Bruce wrote:
> > > On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:14:36 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
> > >
> > > > With regard to Motown bassist James Jamerson, McCartney's effusive praise for him led to a tribute book/tape project called "Standing in the Shadows of Motown," to which lots of famous bassists -- McCartney, Jack Bruce, Geddy Lee, John Entwistle, and many others -- contributed. A bit later, a movie of the same title was made about Jamerson and other important Motown musicians.
> > > What makes you think that McCartney's praise had anything to do with Slutsky deciding to write the book?
> > There were probably additional factors, but very few people even knew the name James Jamerson before McCartney cited him as an influence in interviews. Even after being in Motown cover bands, Slutsky didn't know the name at first.
> Lots of people knew the name. I certainly did in the 1970s. I was too young to know it in the 60s. I barely turned 12 as the 60s ended.

Maybe it depends on what you mean by "lots of people." According to Wikipedia, Jamerson was not *credited* on a major Motown release until 1971.

I knew the name -- only because I had read interviews with Chuck Rainey and Jaco Pastorius in which they sung his praises.


> > If you look at the cover of the book, McCartney is the first bassist (after Jamerson's son) named. In the tapes that camewith the book, McCartney's is the first voice you hear.
> >
> > There's video of Slutsky (available on Youtube) saying (I'm paraphrasing) that everyone considered his project a folly -- until they saw the name Paul McCartney on the cover -- at which point "They were staggered. This was a big deal."
> "Everyone" meaning all the white guitar rock fans he knew.

No, Standing in the Shadows was a labor of love for Slutsky which got him very deeply into debt. He had to pawn off a lot of his musical equipment. He says his wife "hated" him and he found it nearly impossible to find support for the project.

If true it's really a shame that white people can only appreciate a genius black performer if some superstar white guy endorses him. I hate that shit where they use names of white stars like Eric Clapton in order to validate great black performers like Robert Johnson.
>
> James Jamerson does not need to be validated by some white superstar. His work stands on its own.

I don't think McCartney's praise "validated" Jamerson's playing so much it got people (who wouldn;t have otherwise sought the work out) interested in it.


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Norbert K

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Sep 26, 2023, 3:59:56 PMSep 26
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I don't have Slutsky's presentation on file. I provided sufficient information for a genuinely-interested person to find the video. Google searches aren't hard.

geoff

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Sep 26, 2023, 5:27:40 PMSep 26
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On 27/09/2023 4:15 am, Bruce wrote:

>
> "Everyone" meaning all the white guitar rock fans he knew. If true it's really a shame that white people can only appreciate a genius black performer if some superstar white guy endorses him. I hate that shit where they use names of white stars like Eric Clapton in order to validate great black performers like Robert Johnson.
>
> James Jamerson does not need to be validated by some white superstar. His work stands on its own.
>

But surely you don't begrudge awareness of Johnson (and others
similarly) being raised ?

geoff

Bruce

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Sep 26, 2023, 8:58:32 PMSep 26
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Actually, I do. If people are not interested enough in these great black acts to find out about them without White Rock Validation, they don't deserve to discover them.

Bruce

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Sep 26, 2023, 9:01:17 PMSep 26
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You posting the link = White rock stars validating black artists that most whites never heard of.

A lot more people will just click on a link then will actually search for the supposed video. You're just a lazy MFer me thinks.

geoff

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Sep 27, 2023, 4:49:37 AMSep 27
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I find that a sad attitude.

geoff

Norbert K

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Sep 27, 2023, 5:56:40 AMSep 27
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I specifically told you that I don't have the link. You and your supposed "a lot more people" are the lazy ones, lacking the industriousness to perform a simple search.

Norbert K

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Sep 27, 2023, 6:04:50 AMSep 27
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I don't think McCartney's citing of Jamerson as an influence has anything whatsoever to do with "validation." Anyone who admires a musician will want to know his influences; McCartney was merely answering that question.

Anyone who listens to Jamerson and then returns to McCartney's work will detect that influence in songs like "Taxman."

One can *really* hear Jamerson's influence in the work of Chuck Rainey and Anthony Jackson. When they name Jamerson as an influence, are they doing it to validate him?
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Norbert K

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Sep 27, 2023, 6:56:59 AMSep 27
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On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 5:58:32 PM UTC-7, Bruce wrote:
You don't approve of people learning about black performers through white performers.

Is it okay for me to have first learned about Jamerson through a black musician (Chuck Rainey)?

How about Hispanic-American acts, e.g., Los Lobos? Is it acceptable to learn about them through white references to them?


Bruce

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Sep 27, 2023, 10:24:02 AMSep 27
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You can get it just as easily as anyone else. It would complete your post.

Bruce

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Sep 27, 2023, 10:24:19 AMSep 27
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Good gosh.

Bruce

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Sep 27, 2023, 10:31:38 AMSep 27
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On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 6:04:50 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 5:58:32 PM UTC-7, Bruce wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 5:27:40 PM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
> > > On 27/09/2023 4:15 am, Bruce wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > "Everyone" meaning all the white guitar rock fans he knew. If true it's really a shame that white people can only appreciate a genius black performer if some superstar white guy endorses him. I hate that shit where they use names of white stars like Eric Clapton in order to validate great black performers like Robert Johnson.
> > > >
> > > > James Jamerson does not need to be validated by some white superstar. His work stands on its own.
> > > >
> > > But surely you don't begrudge awareness of Johnson (and others similarly) being raised ?
> > Actually, I do. If people are not interested enough in these great black acts to find out about them without White Rock Validation, they don't deserve to discover them.
> I don't think McCartney's citing of Jamerson as an influence has anything whatsoever to do with "validation." Anyone who admires a musician will want to know his influences; McCartney was merely answering that question.
>
> Anyone who listens to Jamerson and then returns to McCartney's work will detect that influence in songs like "Taxman."

"Returns to?"

Why would they have to have heard McCartney's work first in order to listen to Jamerson in the first place?

> One can *really* hear Jamerson's influence in the work of Chuck Rainey and Anthony Jackson. When they name Jamerson as an influence, are they doing it to validate him?

McCartney didn't do it to validate him either. But that's how most white people took it. They ONLY became interested in Jamerson at all because they saw that some white rock superstar mentioned him. They would never even have seen that Rainey and Jackson also did, because they've never heard of Rainey or Jackson.

I don't have a problem with Paul or Eric. My problem is with the ignorant white fucks who listen to 99% white music.

Norbert K

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Sep 27, 2023, 10:57:32 AMSep 27
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Yeah, it was McCartney's references to Jamerson that led to Jamerson's post-mortem popularity in the late 80s and thereafter. Slutsky's book & tapes came out -- and before long there were references to it everywhere one looked. And bass players of every stripe were announcing, "Oh, yeah, Jamerson's my biggest influence."

Jamerson *was* a big influence on bass players from McCartney to Rainey to even Geddy Lee (seriously, I can hear it in Lee).

Some of it, of course, was BS. Heavy metal guys who had no sense of syncopation of melody were saying it, too -- in a ridiculous attempt at appearing cool.

> I don't have a problem with Paul or Eric. My problem is with the ignorant white fucks who listen to 99% white music.

Alright.




Bruce

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Sep 27, 2023, 11:16:10 AMSep 27
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On Wednesday, September 27, 2023 at 10:57:32 AM UTC-4, Norbert K wrote:

> Jamerson *was* a big influence on bass players from McCartney to Rainey to even Geddy Lee (seriously, I can hear it in Lee).

I have no interest in Rush, so I wouldn't know what Lee sounds like. Actually I like the standup bass far more than the electric bass, which is only better for funk IMO. Of course Jamerson played both. Paul never learned the fingering to play the standup.

My favorite bass players besides Jamerson would be guys like Willie Dixon, Bill Black, Marshall Lytle, Frank Fields, Leonard Gaskin, and other upright players. With electric bass you can barely even notice the bass parts on most white rock and roll records.

geoff

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Sep 27, 2023, 4:35:01 PMSep 27
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And there was me thinking it was only 'white' people who were nasty racists.

Maybe music should come with a warning as to the racial origin of its
bassist.

geoff



Norbert K

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Sep 28, 2023, 7:38:20 AMSep 28
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I like Willie Dixon a lot -- his songs, his vocals and his upright bass playing.

The guys in Zeppelin did, too. I hope Dixon was well-compensated for their plagiarism of his "You Need Love."
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