na
..............As they say on the want ads, "Please no time wasters":)
I loved the early recording with the strong use of percussion. The
tambourine was great as were the hand claps and other percussion instruments
sprinkled intelligently throughout (bongos too!). And as you point out, they
were used not simply to "echo" the drum beats but rather complement them
with a lot of creative syncopation. Very simple production (particularly
compared to the techno-whiz stuff today) but wonderfully full for its time,
and still sounding good to these ears today. George Martin has received
quite a lot of credit and, listening to the old stuff now, I think he
deserves even more.
BTW, I remember being told what "claves" are but have since forgotten. Do
you know?
On which songs do you hear the floor tom?
--
"Go to the window! Go to the window!"
Csabi
To hear claves listen to "And I Love Her". To hear all of Ringo's tom
toms, just listen to the drum solo on Abbey Road. The lowest tom in
pitch is the floor tom.
>Just noticing how ubiquitous the tambo is in a lot of fab stuff. And the
>interesting thing is the boys' use of it to lift chorus and middle eights.
I was thinking of the same thing when I recently breakfasted in a
hotel on a Sunday morning. Coming out of an adjoining conference room
were the typical sounds of a Christian church service: choral singing,
acoustic guitar, tambourine and piano. The earlier sounds of the
Beatles' own youth.
The choice of additional artillary they made was interesting in it
itself. The tambourine, the organ, the harmonium. On songs such as
"Hey You've Got To Hide Your Love Away" or "We Can Work It Out", it
almost sounds like we're listening to the Salvation Army.
All Beatles, it seems, became a dab hand at tambourine and maraca.
These two instruments, along with Starr's cymbals became the "seating"
of many songs. A critical listen to a track would often see Starr or
someone else go back into the studio to add the missing "seating".
One some songs these instruments are often central to the settings,
and certainly not just added on as an afterthought. The one that
springs to mind is "A Day In The Life", where the maraca and acoustic
guitar sound provide the songs skeletal backbone.
ian hammond
===============================
"a girl with kaleidoscope eyes"
The influence of the Byrds, and Lennon not being in the mood to work out a
guitar part.
> Claves is a pair of nice sounding wooden stick as I know..... Floor tom can be
> listened at e.g. in HELP just before the refren....
>
> Csabi
That's not a floor tom. That's John thumping his acoustic guitar.
DC
--
Danny Caccavo (dan...@interport.net)
"Hey, Bee-atle - we shall have fun, eh?"
********
GRANDFATHER: Why do you always use your left hand?
PAUL: Well, don't be daft, I've got to.
GRANDFATHER: And I take a left-handed view of life. I've got to.
Csabi
The Byrds released their first single in June 1965, some four monthes
after the Beatles had recorded "Hey You've Got To Hide Your Love
Away", which consists mostly of Lennon's beautifully worked out
12-string guitar and and prominent tambourine. This would certainly to
seem to indicate that your argument is at least not universal in its
application.
But taking you seriously, I had a quick listen through _A Hard Day's
Night_ to _Revolver_.
"I'll Cry Instead" -- great guitar part.
"Honey Don't" -- Lennon's guitar and the tambourine act as one.
"Hey You've Got To Hide..." -- Iconic guitar and tambourine parts.
"Ticket To Ride" -- one of earliest Guitar Heavens on Earth
"Tell Me What You See" -- guitar part is best bit of the song
_Rubber Soul_ was recorded in October, not long after the Byrds first
album was released (featuring tambourine on about eight of its twelve
tracks). _Rubber Soul_ certainly features more tambourine, but I can't
see where Lennon is not "in the mood" except perhaps one song.
"Drive My Car" -- Harrison handles guitar duties
"Norwegian Wood" -- really Tom
"You Won't See Me" -- E-guitar chop is all required in "piano song"
"Think For Yourself -- a lousy rhythm guitar part
"What Goes On" -- a messy rhythm part but no tambourine
"Wait!" -- guitars are fine
"If I Needed Someone" -- great guitars
"Run For You Life" -- rumour has it that Lennon did all the guitars
So, I would think I would only be able to agree on "Think For
Yourself". But there I would agree with or without the tambourine
part, which does nothing to salvage the band track.
On _Revolver_:
"Taxman" -- brilliant guitars
"And Your Bird Can Sing" -- Lennon tried lots of ideas out. Lauded.
"For No One" -- is no guitar part because Macca did not want one
"Doctor Robert" -- brilliant guitar (maraca?)
"I Want To Tell You -- piano rhythm part (maraca?)
"Gotta Get You Into My Life -- guitar mixed out (maraca?)
"Tomorrow Never Knows" -- nothing missing from this song
Perhaps you were thinking of other tracks when you said "main reasons
for the heavy use of the tambourine." Anyway, many of the tracks above
make only light use of the tambourine.
ian hammond
===============================================
"ain't nothing shaking but the leaves on trees"
Please forward any lists of pics & video to
8day...@iname.com
I am looking for pics of TV & live shows, backstage stuff,
airports, press conferences, hotels.
Color & B/W clear, from as from the front as possible.
Video, as low gen as possible.
Thanks,
Ron
>Perhaps you were thinking of other tracks when you said "main reasons
>for the heavy use of the tambourine." Anyway, many of the tracks above
>make only light use of the tambourine.
>
I could be wrong. I was going by an impression I have of one of the early
"who played what" books, where it seemed like many of the 65 tracks only had
Harrison on guitar.
My opinion that tamborine was used to emulate the Byrds sound comes from
several of their tracks that had a very Byrds like sound, and used the
tamborine in a similar way. The guitar plays the riff without accompanyment
once, then the rhythm section comes in (with tamborine) everyone plays the
riff once or twice, then the vocals start. They do this on "If I Needed
Someone" "Ticket To Ride" and "Day Tripper" off the top of my head.
I know that "Ticket To Ride" came out a few weeks before "Mr. Tamborine
Man," but MTM was recorded months earlier and it's very likely that the
Beatles had heard it already. (There was the Derek Taylor connection, and
the fact that the Byrds had a big "in crowd" following before the record)
>ways. We know the Byrds were a Brill Building thing built around the
>"Hard Day's Night" sound. Cowbell to tambourine is not a big step.
>
I wouldn't call them a Brill Building thing. That suggests they were a
creation of a producer or songwriter.
>
>The Byrds recorded Tambourine Man on January 20. You can see the
>actual contract at (http://sunsite.unc.edu/jimmy/mcguinn/mtm.html).
>To be more precise, in true Brill Building style, it was Roger McGuinn
>and a group of session musicians. Here's the story of the track from
>McGuinn's home page:
>
That's unfair. Were the Beatles recording in Brill Building style when they
used a session drummer? At the time, rock musicians weren't trusted and it
was common to use session musicians for a recording. The Byrds used
Dickson's opinion, but it wasn't any more or less being his creation than,
"ok Mr. Martin, we'll try speeding up "Please Please Me." Move the chorus to
"She Loves You" to the beginning? Good idea."
>I think the defining Beatles 12-string/tambourine song is "Hey You've
>Got To Hide Your Love Away", and that, along with "Ticket To Ride",
>was recorded between February 15 and 18 in 1965. That means Lennon had
>to have heard an acetate of a completely unknown band within a few
>weeks. It sounds a bit unlikely to me. I think it's more a case of an
>idea which was going in the other direction, as the Byrds say in all
>their interviews, including the notes above. I would need to see some
>ravishing evidence to have me believe otherwise.
>
The Byrds haven't said that their sound was taken from the Beatles as much
as the idea of being a rock band. (More exactly, they were moving in that
direction, but seeing the Beatles made them think they could do what they
wanted musically as a rock band) Some songs were very Beatle influenced, but
that's stronger in their early demos than on the first album. (an obvious
exception being "It's No Use")
I'd guess their use of Tamborine had less to do with the Beatles than it did
with Gene Clark needing something to do after Crosby took over Rhythm
Guitar.
>
> They were good mates of the Beatles from
>Liverpool and had songs like "Needles And Pins" (January 1964) and
>"When You Walk In The Room" (September 1964) both out before the Byrds
>started up (The Byrds also chose to use Jackie De Shannon material). I
>can't say I can hear a lot of difference between the Searchers and the
>Byrds *generally*.
>
There is a big difference between the way the Byrds used 12 string guitars
and the way the Searchers did. The Byrds used it more for lead riffs, where
it was frequently an atmospheric thing with the Searchers.
Are you certain about the Byrds not having been in existence in September
64? They did do some recording before MTM. and there was an earlier single
they released as the Jet Set.
There isn't any 12 string on Needles and Pins. That's two six strings with
the high end boosted.
They only recorded one Jackie DeShannon song and it wasn't released as a
single. Since she was a fairly well known local songwriter, I don't think
that was necessarily because of the Searchers.
>
>The Byrds influence on Harrison in late 1965 is well documented.
>_Revolver_ has lots of U.S. band influences. But, I think it's pushing
>it to put the _Help!_ songs, or "Day Tripper" in that category. The
>problem of the behind-the-scenes stuff is that in this twilight area
>the shadows we see are often of our making. But every so often
>something pops out of the darkness. Which is why I continue to look.
>
None of these ideas are SO unique that it's impossible for two people to
both come up with them on their own. My observation was that MTM has a
fairly distinct arrangement and that some Beatles songs recorded after it
have similar arrangements, including Ticket To Ride and Day Tripper.
I'd also include "Rain" among the possible Byrd influenced songs.
I hear what you're saying, but I don't see "main reason for heavy use
of the tambourine". I see "possible reason for some use of the
tambourine in 1965".
Behind-the-scenes access to works-in-progress has always been a part
of the game. Look at all the bootlegs we have today -- many of these
probably started as acetate access to the Beatles' work, months before
release dates. Even a verbal description was enough. But it cuts both
ways. We know the Byrds were a Brill Building thing built around the
"Hard Day's Night" sound. Cowbell to tambourine is not a big step.
The Byrds recorded Tambourine Man on January 20. You can see the
actual contract at (http://sunsite.unc.edu/jimmy/mcguinn/mtm.html).
To be more precise, in true Brill Building style, it was Roger McGuinn
and a group of session musicians. Here's the story of the track from
McGuinn's home page:
============
Dickson made the Byrds line up in front of the studio monitor and
listen to "Mr. Tambourine Man."
Crosby said, "I don't like it man! It's too folksy with that 2/4 time
and all those verses. Radio will never play a song like that!"
David was right. Radio wanted what sounded like Beatles' songs and had
a strict time limit of two minutes and thirty seconds for a single
record.
McGuinn had an idea for a new arrangement. He added a Bach-like intro
on his Rickenbacker 12-string guitar and changed the time signature to
4/4 time like a Beatles' song. Then they all auditioned for the lead
vocal part.
First Gene sang it, then David and finally McGuinn. Dickson liked the
way McGuinn sounded on the lead and gave him the part.
http://sunsite.unc.edu/jimmy/mcguinn/ByrdsFAQ.html
=============
I think the defining Beatles 12-string/tambourine song is "Hey You've
Got To Hide Your Love Away", and that, along with "Ticket To Ride",
was recorded between February 15 and 18 in 1965. That means Lennon had
to have heard an acetate of a completely unknown band within a few
weeks. It sounds a bit unlikely to me. I think it's more a case of an
idea which was going in the other direction, as the Byrds say in all
their interviews, including the notes above. I would need to see some
ravishing evidence to have me believe otherwise.
Anyway, it was not a two-person race. There were many more people
alive in late 1964 and 1965 than the galactic Beatles, the wannabe
Byrds and a recalcitrant Dylan. In this case it is impossible to
ignore the Searchers. They had that big jingle jangle guitar sound,
the 12-string riffs and the ultra-treble Byrd-like harmonies in early
1964. They also had the folk influence, and the "bottle of wine" sort
of stuff in A minor/G. They were good mates of the Beatles from
Liverpool and had songs like "Needles And Pins" (January 1964) and
"When You Walk In The Room" (September 1964) both out before the Byrds
started up (The Byrds also chose to use Jackie De Shannon material). I
can't say I can hear a lot of difference between the Searchers and the
Byrds *generally*.
The Byrds influence on Harrison in late 1965 is well documented.
_Revolver_ has lots of U.S. band influences. But, I think it's pushing
it to put the _Help!_ songs, or "Day Tripper" in that category. The
problem of the behind-the-scenes stuff is that in this twilight area
the shadows we see are often of our making. But every so often
something pops out of the darkness. Which is why I continue to look.
ian
======================================
i can feel a new expression on my face
i feel a dumb sensation taking place
I Can Hear The Guitars Play Lovely Tunes
everytime that you, walk in the room
>
>
>>ways. We know the Byrds were a Brill Building thing built around the
>>"Hard Day's Night" sound. Cowbell to tambourine is not a big step.
>>
>I wouldn't call them a Brill Building thing. That suggests they were a
>creation of a producer or songwriter.
Yep. Roger McGuinn was a Brill Building writer. His job was to study
the Beatles and write Beatle-like songs. Here's a quote from McGuinn's
home page on how they found their drummer:
=======
Crosby and McGuinn were standing in front of the Troubadour when they
spotted a man coming toward them who looked like a combination of two
of the members of the Rolling Stones. Michael Clarke was hired on the
spot for just looking the part. Clarke didn't know how to play the
drums but that didn't matter.
=======
>>The Byrds recorded Tambourine Man on January 20. You can see the
>>actual contract at (http://sunsite.unc.edu/jimmy/mcguinn/mtm.html).
>>To be more precise, in true Brill Building style, it was Roger McGuinn
>>and a group of session musicians. Here's the story of the track from
>>McGuinn's home page:
>>
>That's unfair. Were the Beatles recording in Brill Building style when they
>used a session drummer? At the time, rock musicians weren't trusted and it
>was common to use session musicians for a recording. The Byrds used
>Dickson's opinion, but it wasn't any more or less being his creation than,
>"ok Mr. Martin, we'll try speeding up "Please Please Me." Move the chorus to
>"She Loves You" to the beginning? Good idea."
How many of the Byrds played an instrument on MTM? One. A better
answer would have been: that only occurred on their first single. To
which I would have answered, true, but enough to show they were a
typical Brill Building construction. There's nothing wrong with that.
>>I think the defining Beatles 12-string/tambourine song is "Hey You've
>>Got To Hide Your Love Away", and that, along with "Ticket To Ride",
>>was recorded between February 15 and 18 in 1965. That means Lennon had
>>to have heard an acetate of a completely unknown band within a few
>>weeks. It sounds a bit unlikely to me. I think it's more a case of an
>>idea which was going in the other direction, as the Byrds say in all
>>their interviews, including the notes above. I would need to see some
>>ravishing evidence to have me believe otherwise.
>>
>The Byrds haven't said that their sound was taken from the Beatles as much
>as the idea of being a rock band. (More exactly, they were moving in that
>direction, but seeing the Beatles made them think they could do what they
>wanted musically as a rock band) Some songs were very Beatle influenced, but
>that's stronger in their early demos than on the first album. (an obvious
>exception being "It's No Use")
I quote again from McGuinn's homepage (there's many more explicit
quotes available. The Byrds are quite open on the subject):
=======
They all went to see the Beatles' movie "A Hard Day's Night," and
studied the instruments the Beatles were using. With a borrowed
$5000.00 and with the trade-in of McGuinn's banjo and guitar they
bought a Rickenbacker 12-string electric guitar, a Gretsch 6-string
guitar, a Gibson bass, a set of Ludwig drums and three small Epiphone
amplifiers.
They also got some black suits with velvet collars just like their
heroes the Beatles.
=======
======
Then McGuinn came up with B-Y-R-D-S.
Dickson loved it because it had the magic "B" sound as in Beatles and
Bobby. He thought little girls liked the "B" names because they felt
less threatened by them. So the group was called "the Byrds" .
======
=======
Crosby said, "I don't like it man! It's too folksy with that 2/4 time
and all those verses. Radio will never play a song like that!"
David was right. Radio wanted what sounded like Beatles' songs and had
a strict time limit of two minutes and thirty seconds for a single
record.
McGuinn had an idea for a new arrangement. He added a Bach-like intro
on his Rickenbacker 12-string guitar and changed the time signature to
4/4 time like a Beatles' song. Then they all auditioned for the lead
vocal part.
========
<snip>
>There is a big difference between the way the Byrds used 12 string guitars
>and the way the Searchers did. The Byrds used it more for lead riffs, where
>it was frequently an atmospheric thing with the Searchers.
"When You Walk In The Room" has a huge lead riff.
>Are you certain about the Byrds not having been in existence in September
>64? They did do some recording before MTM. and there was an earlier single
>they released as the Jet Set.
Yes, as the Beefeaters they put out a single called "Please Let Me
Love You", which died a sudden death. Once again, I would need
ravishing evidence to believe that this single influenced the Beatles.
At present I know of absolutely no evidence at all. I do not believe
that the single had the Byrds' "sound" anyway.
>There isn't any 12 string on Needles and Pins. That's two six strings with
>the high end boosted.
Which sounds a lot like a 12-string. But, again, you conveniently
ignore the huge 12-string RIFF on "When You Walk In The Room?
<snip>
>>
>>The Byrds influence on Harrison in late 1965 is well documented.
>>_Revolver_ has lots of U.S. band influences. But, I think it's pushing
>>it to put the _Help!_ songs, or "Day Tripper" in that category. The
>>problem of the behind-the-scenes stuff is that in this twilight area
>>the shadows we see are often of our making. But every so often
>>something pops out of the darkness. Which is why I continue to look.
>>
>None of these ideas are SO unique that it's impossible for two people to
>both come up with them on their own. My observation was that MTM has a
>fairly distinct arrangement and that some Beatles songs recorded after it
>have similar arrangements, including Ticket To Ride and Day Tripper.
My point exactly. They were ideas which were in the air. Implicit in
the Beatles and the Searchers' use of 12-string, and others too. Yes,
the Beatles were influenced by the Byrds. Only a fool would say
otherwise. But, I think, not before _Rubber Soul_.
Tom, I think we've just about done this one. Thanks for the
conversation. I just got my first two Byrds' CDs about a month ago and
I'm starting to listen to them. Their roots don't matter any more than
Carole King's (I love her Brill Building stuff) or the Monkees. That
was the point of the sixties: the revolution was from within. They had
real style and real influence and an enduring following. Here's my
favourite quote:
The Byrds first tour of England was a disaster... so one of the
first gigs we did, we looked down into the audience and there's
about half the Rolling Stones and three-quarters of the Beatles.
We were about three years older, and had just come from California
and we're looking at our idols and we were so scared, man, we
couldn't even open our teeth.
David Crosby SS141
ian hammond
===================================================
"i'm not sleepy and their is no place i'm going to"
>Yep. Roger McGuinn was a Brill Building writer. His job was to study
>the Beatles and write Beatle-like songs. Here's a quote from McGuinn's
>home page on how they found their drummer:
>
What does that have to do with his writing? As far as I know, he only
released one single of songs from the period, and the b-side wasn't even
his. (City Surfers, "Beach Ball" It's pleasant, nothing spectacular.) His
main gig was a a 12 strng guitarist for various folk acts. The Beatles could
be considered an English version of Brill Building writers in the early days
as well. Cilla Black, Billy J. Kramer, Peter and Gordon, etc.
>=======
>Crosby and McGuinn were standing in front of the Troubadour when they
>spotted a man coming toward them who looked like a combination of two
>of the members of the Rolling Stones. Michael Clarke was hired on the
>spot for just looking the part. Clarke didn't know how to play the
>drums but that didn't matter.
>=======
>
And does that make the Jefferson Airplane a Brill Building group since they
found their drummer the same way? Rock has a long tradition of including
people in the group because they look cool.
>
>>>The Byrds recorded Tambourine Man on January 20. You can see the
>>>actual contract at (http://sunsite.unc.edu/jimmy/mcguinn/mtm.html).
>>>To be more precise, in true Brill Building style, it was Roger McGuinn
>>>and a group of session musicians. Here's the story of the track from
>>>McGuinn's home page:
>>>
>>That's unfair. Were the Beatles recording in Brill Building style when
they
>>used a session drummer? At the time, rock musicians weren't trusted and it
>>was common to use session musicians for a recording. The Byrds used
>>Dickson's opinion, but it wasn't any more or less being his creation than,
>>"ok Mr. Martin, we'll try speeding up "Please Please Me." Move the chorus
to
>>"She Loves You" to the beginning? Good idea."
>How many of the Byrds played an instrument on MTM? One. A better
>answer would have been: that only occurred on their first single. To
>which I would have answered, true, but enough to show they were a
>typical Brill Building construction. There's nothing wrong with that.
>
But to be a Brill Building construction, they'd have to be a group put
together by a producer or songwriter. The Byrds weren't. My point was that
the influence of their producer was nothing unusual and that you could find
similar examples of George Martin's influence that could be twisted into a
claim that the Beatles were tools of their producer. (Plus, George Martin
played on more Beatles records, than Terry Melcher or Jim Dickson did on
Byrds records)
A better example of a "Brill Building" construction would be the Grassroots,
who didn't exist as a band for the early recordings and were an outlet for
P.F. Sloan and Steve Barri. (P.F. Sloan, now there's a lost talent. I saw
him live about ten years ago, and it was one of my favorite shows ever.)
Technically, of course, neither were Brill Building creations since there
was an entire country between them and the building.
>>Are you certain about the Byrds not having been in existence in September
>>64? They did do some recording before MTM. and there was an earlier single
>>they released as the Jet Set.
>Yes, as the Beefeaters they put out a single called "Please Let Me
>Love You", which died a sudden death. Once again, I would need
>ravishing evidence to believe that this single influenced the Beatles.
>At present I know of absolutely no evidence at all. I do not believe
>that the single had the Byrds' "sound" anyway.
>
I never said it did influence the Beatles, just that it was proof they
existed before the first album and weren't a creation of their producer. If
it didn't have any Byrds sound, they did a major revamping later since they
rerecorded it on their second album.
>
>Tom, I think we've just about done this one. Thanks for the
>conversation. I just got my first two Byrds' CDs about a month ago and
>I'm starting to listen to them. Their roots don't matter any more than
>Carole King's (I love her Brill Building stuff) or the Monkees.
Or Lou Reed, Paul Simon, Al Kooper. etc. Brill Building work was something
of a training ground for American musicians.
Which two did you get? I think of 8 Miles High as one of the three singles
that took rock from pop music into something more experimental.
(psychedelic, if you prefer) Good Vibrations and Strawberry Fields being the
others.
The influence of the Byrds, and Lennon not being in the mood to work out a
guitar part.
Actually I had always thought that the use of tambourine was more of George Martin
idea to color the rythmns. Sometimes a hi-hat just can't move the groove enough
so percussion like a tambourine or marracas are used to "move the beat".
If you notice that when it is used, the groove seems to "pick up" a little.
That would come from G. Martin's extensive musical background or The Beatles
knowledge of folk music's use of percussion to fill in rythmn sections.
Either way, it's a creative use of their musical knowledge.