The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald based on It Don't Come Easy
mm
And you know It Don't Come Easy
WOTEF:
Superior, they said, never gives up her dead
When the gales of November come early!
Same tune different lyrics!
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R.A.G. Seely
> Same tune
Not much "tune" there! This is just a "chant section" of the song, and I'd
guess you'd find lots of parallels in other songs ...
Is anyone else finding this "they pinched XXX from YYY" a bit nick-picking?
A serious attempt to find "ancestors" or "influences" (Ian has written
several very interesting articles of that sort) is one thing, but this
tendancy to see plagarism everywhere is entirely another, and an example of
the excessive litigousness that's such a blight on "modern" life ...
Or do I need more sleep?
-= rags =-
--
To reply by email, use "@" not "__A@T__"
<rags AT math . mcgill . ca>
<http://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags>
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.
Mister Charlie
"R.A.G. Seely" <rags__A@T__math.mcgill.ca.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns930F8346D230Eli...@127.0.0.1...
> "mm" <r...@zoominternet.net> wrote in
news:3e33ec22$1...@corp.newsgroups.com:
>
> > Same tune
>
> Not much "tune" there! This is just a "chant section" of the song,
and I'd
> guess you'd find lots of parallels in other songs ...
>
> Is anyone else finding this "they pinched XXX from YYY" a bit
nick-picking?
> A serious attempt to find "ancestors" or "influences" (Ian has written
> several very interesting articles of that sort) is one thing, but this
> tendancy to see plagarism everywhere is entirely another, and an
example of
> the excessive litigousness that's such a blight on "modern" life ...
>
> Or do I need more sleep?
>
hitherto disclosed (at least to me). But as to whether actual theft was
involved? Naw, everything is inspired by everything that came before
it.
Tim Brent
<smoker...@myway.com> wrote:
>>
>> Or do I need more sleep?
>>
>It's kind of interesting to find parallels betwen songs as of yet not
>hitherto disclosed (at least to me). But as to whether actual theft was
>involved? Naw, everything is inspired by everything that came before
>it.
>
Plus,there are so few musical notes that all possible combinations of
such have in all likelyhood been used.
Dale Houstman
R.A.G. Seely wrote:
> "mm" <r...@zoominternet.net> wrote in
> news:3e33ec22$1...@corp.newsgroups.com:
>
>
>> Same tune
>
>
> Not much "tune" there! This is just a "chant section" of the song,
> and I'd guess you'd find lots of parallels in other songs ...
>
> Is anyone else finding this "they pinched XXX from YYY" a bit
> nick-picking? A serious attempt to find "ancestors" or "influences"
> (Ian has written several very interesting articles of that sort) is
> one thing, but this tendancy to see plagarism everywhere is entirely
> another, and an example of the excessive litigousness that's such a
> blight on "modern" life ...
>
> Or do I need more sleep?
>
If you do so do I. These sorts of superficial parallels can be found
everywhere. Most popular music is rife with them, and the blues is
almost dependent on them. It doesn't mean anything, and it is tedious to
keep seeing them.
dmh
From Me To You
>Is anyone else finding this "they pinched XXX from YYY" a bit nick-picking?
Yes.
paramucho
<rags__A@T__math.mcgill.ca.invalid> wrote:
>"mm" <r...@zoominternet.net> wrote in news:3e33ec22$1...@corp.newsgroups.com:
>
>> Same tune
>
>Not much "tune" there! This is just a "chant section" of the song, and I'd
>guess you'd find lots of parallels in other songs ...
Huh? It's almost the entire Lightfoot song and its much more than the
tune - the chords are identical. You'll rarely find this sort of
parallelism between songs unless they're based on common cliches, such
as doowop or the twelve bar blues.
It's what Alan Pollack might have termed a "great catch". Studying
these two songs together is certain to be rewarding and has already
helped me sort out a problem with George's more recent "Pisces Fish".
>Is anyone else finding this "they pinched XXX from YYY" a bit nick-picking?
>A serious attempt to find "ancestors" or "influences" (Ian has written
>several very interesting articles of that sort) is one thing, but this
>tendancy to see plagarism everywhere is entirely another, and an example of
>the excessive litigousness that's such a blight on "modern" life ...
Not at all. I find all parallels interesting and on-topic. We all hear
songs differently. Similarity (i.e. the act of comparison) is one of
the few very few tools we have to express how we hear songs.
Any "serious attempt to find ancestors" begins the observation that
two songs share elements in common. The best resource we have there
are each others ears. Inhibit that activity and the whole business of
style analysis goes out the window because we stop learning how
It's natural that people sometimes view these likenesses in terms of
copying. Similarity sometimes does imply plagiarism of one form or
another. The boundaries are vague and more determined by the foibles
of the legal system than any system of logic. Lennon and McCartney
have both admitted to "nicking" and even described, so there is some
fire for this smoke. One can see the recognition of similarities as a
modern urge to litigate, but it's also an urge to analyse which I
think is the more valuable. In any case, the poster made no such legal
implication.
Yesterday someone brought up "Nature Boy" for "Yesterday" -- I've
heard that comparison before but still can't hear what they're
hearing, but I'd like to.
--
Ian
Impressive But Haughty - Q Magazine
mm
this.."
"paramucho" <i...@hammo.com> wrote in message
news:3e866e08....@news.supernews.com...
R.A.G. Seely
> Thanks "paramucho"...I just called it as I heard it...."and now it's all
> this.."
Fair enough ... we'll see where this leads then.
paramucho
>Thanks "paramucho"...I just called it as I heard it...."and now it's all
>this.."
And what's more, you were even on-topic!
Keep calling them as you hear them and don't worry about the peanut
gallery :-)
Ian
paramucho
>IDCE: Got to pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues
> And you know It Don't Come Easy
>
>WOTEF:
>Superior, they said, never gives up her dead
>When the gales of November come early!
>
>
>Same tune different lyrics!
It's an interesting match. Almost the entire Gordon Lighfoot song is
based on this four bar melody and chord progression. I've transposed
both to G major for comparison:
<G AG|F D DE|F GFEDC |DG > Tune Wreck Of The
<FG FG|F D DE|F F |G > Tune Don't Come Easy
[G |d |F C |G ] Chords Both
Note, the [C] chord is heard in the instrumental verses of "It Don't
Come Easy" but is replaced with [F] when Starr sings.
As other posters have pointed out, similarities between songs are
guaranteed because of the nature of the beast. Many songs share the
same chord progressions, particular the 12-bar blues sequence or the
doowop chords. However, you'd be hard pressed to find another song
with these chords at that time.
The opening progression, [G |d] is particularly distinctive. It's the
same color that we hear when the bridge comes in in "From Me To You"
and it's also heard mid-verse in "I'll Get You". Paul attributes the
instance in "I'll Get You" to a Joan Baez song "All My Trials" (1960)
(yes Virginia, chords *do* get borrowed).
<GABCD DE|F F|GD D|E >
[G |d |G |C ]
BTW: Baez's use is quite similar to the chorus of "Tu", a 1998 song of
Shakira's that I just happen to be listening to:
<E DD DE|F ED D |D CBA |D CBAC >
[G |d |c |D7! ]
The chord was a favorite of George Harrison's in the late sixties. We
see it prominently in his anthem "All Things Must Pass" and in
"Badge", the song he wrote with Clapton. I think we also hear the
color of that chord change in Dylan's "Knocking On Heaven's Door",
itself apparently based on a Neil Young song.
The second part of the verse is another favorite Harrison device at
the time which you can hear clearly in the arpegiated bits of "Here
Comes The Sun" based on plagal progressions.
Hang on, some of you are saying, but this is a Ringo Starr song! Well,
I don't know anybody who doesn't think that George Harrison didn't
have a lot to do with the song. If you need more convincing then
listen to the "Hare Krishna" in the back vocals :-)
The Starr/Harrison connection probably explain the difference between
the intro and the verse. Starr's initial sketch may have already had
the [F |G] verse ending -- it's something he does later in other songs
that he wrote with Poncia (although he might have been trying to
imitate "It Don't Come Easy" then).
So, we can see the verse of "It Don't Come Easy" coming together from
two little devices, [G |d ] and [F C |G].
Five years later folk singer Gordon Lightfoot wrote his ballad (or, as
it's now sometimes known, "docu-song"!) to commemorate the 1975
sinking of the Edmund Fitzgerald with the loss of thirty lives. The
loss of the Canadian ship is remembered in a number of websites:
http://www.corfid.com/gl/wreck.htm
http://www.ssefo.com/
Lightfoot, a mariner himself, wrote the song as described below:
Many people are not aware that the song, The Wreck of the Edmund
Fitzgerald, by Gordon Lightfoot, is even associated with a real life
event. Even fewer people really know where he first got the idea to
write the song The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald. When Gordon
Lightfoot first heard about the wreck, he did so through a
newspaper. In the newspaper, the name Edmund Fitzgerald was spelled
wrong; Lightfoot was insulted that someone had so much disrespect
for the ship that they actually spelled the name wrong, so he
decided to write a song. The song was released in 1976 by Moose
Music, which is located in Canada and became a top ten hit!
Gordon Lightfoot usually is very protective of this song and the
wishes of the family members and is in no way "for" exploiting the
victims, or their family members. He also appeared at several 25th
anniversary memorial services in support of the families and is in
personal contact with many of them.
The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald is still popular today and
Lightfoot performs it at almost every concert he performs.
http://www.ssefo.com/remembrances/song.htm
It's a traditional old-time ballad with many long, ponderous verses.
Here's a sample:
The Wreck of The Edmund Fitzgerald
The legend lives on from the Chippewa on down
of the big lake they called "Gitche Gumee."
The lake, it is said, never gives up her dead
when the skies of November turn gloomy.
With a load of iron ore twenty-six thousand tons more
than the Edmund Fitzgerald weighed empty,
that good ship and true was a bone to be chewed
when the "Gales of November" came early.
The song is in a broad Gaelic 6/8 and shows the same balladic
sea-faring influences in the music as in the text. Seafaring towns
were often isolated communities which managed to keep old traditions
alive while the places of their origin adapted to changing fashions.
In general, unaccompanied folk song keeps the modal influences alive
because the major motivating factor behind the changes to major/minor
were in the harmony of the accompaniment.
The Lightfoot song is closer in spirit to the chorus of Harrison's
recently released (and nautical) "Pisces Fish":
<DE|F G E C |D EDC A|G Pisces Fish
<G AG|F D DE|F GFEDC |DG> Wreck
[G |d |F C |G ] Wreck
[F C |G a |G ] Pisces Fish
"Pisces Fish", like many other BRAINWASHED songs, is a bit of a tonal
puzzle. It's unclear whether the chorus is in C or G. I think the
Lightfoot example adds weight for a solution in G mixolydian.
Lightfoot's history is a bit like that of the founder of the Byrds: a
folk singer who did a tough but instructive apprenticeship in
commercial pop, in Lightfoot's case as an arranger. Who knows what
music crossed his desk in those years. Perhaps even the Harrison/
Starr song. George Harrison later recorded a Lightfoot song although I
don't know which one. Dylan did "Early Morning Rain" on SELF PORTRAIT
(rather poorly).
I don't know enough about Lightfoot to work out whether this chord
progression or tune were typical of his work. A discussion held at
alt.music.lightfoot concerning the origins of the song didn't mention
that topic either way (the conjecture was that the song "Take Me Back
To Derry" was the song it was based but it in fact turned out to be
the other way around).
Was it nicked and does it matter? I don't know either way but I do
know that following down leads like these is almost always instructive
and usually enjoyable. I've gotten to know many interesting songs in
this way.
robertandrews
>We see it prominently in his anthem "All Things Must Pass" and in "Badge",
the song he wrote with Clapton.
It's very close the bridge in Badge (or is that the badge in Bridge?)
Easy D - Am - C - G/B - G - D
Badge D - C - G/B - G - D
>However, you'd be hard pressed to find another song with these chords at
that time.
Cinnamon Girl D - Am - C - G - D
If just looking for I - Vm . . . I, there are others as well.
I'm not going to press my brain at the moment.
paramucho
<robert...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"paramucho" <i...@hammo.com> wrote:
>>We see it prominently in his anthem "All Things Must Pass" and in "Badge",
>the song he wrote with Clapton.
>
>It's very close the bridge in Badge (or is that the badge in Bridge?)
>
>Easy D - Am - C - G/B - G - D
>Badge D - C - G/B - G - D
>>However, you'd be hard pressed to find another song with these chords at
>that time.
>
>Cinnamon Girl D - Am - C - G - D
Neil Young's "Cinnamon Girl" single is reported as 1970 -- harmony is
very Cream-like (I've been putting everything in G):
<G |FEF D |F |E C |DG >
[G |d |F |C |G ]
This is close "It Don't Come Easy" and both are in D major. "Cinnamon
Girl" was released as a single on April 2, 1970, however it was also a
track on his May 1969 album EVERYONE KNOWS THIS IS NOWHERE.
NOT from any album, this was Ringo's first solo single release.
Ringo composed the song in 1970 and allegedly recorded three
versions. Two versions of these three versions are said to have
George on guitar and the other with Eric Clapton on guitar. The
released version was recorded 8th March 1970 and featured George on
guitar, with Klaus Voorman, Steven Stills, Ron Cattermole(brass) and
Ringo on drums.
The B-side had Ringo on acoustic guitar, piano AND drums, with
George on guitar and backing vocals.
Both tracks were produced by George Harrison and published under
"Startling Music".
http://www.jpgr.co.uk/r5898.html
It Don't Come Easy {Starkey} (3:05)
Recorded: March 8, 1970
Produced by: George Harrison
Ringo Starr: lead vocal, drums
George Harrison: guitars
Ron Cattermole: saxophone, trumpet
>If just looking for I - Vm . . . I, there are others as well.
Like Lennon's "Strawberry Fields Forever" (1966) [G d E C G].
Lightfoot's 1969 "If You Could Read My Mind" begins with a related
progression:
[G G2 |d6/F |G G2 |d6/F ]
[G G7 |C D |e C |G ]
[C G/B |a4 D |G G2 |G G2 ]
A more detailed examination of "The Wreck" shows the first chord to
also carry a second, so we're seeing a habit of Mr Lightfoot here. The
opening text and music link to "If I Was A Carpenter" (1966) [G F C G]
and then things get very broad including the Rolling Stone's "Lady
Jane" (1966) [G F C G], both on the V reciting note.
Earlier than both of these is Lennon's "Norwegian Wood" (1965) with
it's Hurdy Gurdy prolonged [G d4/F C G]. The actual name of the second
chord is a bit of a problem -- it can sound like Dm or F. The links
between these three songs might seem a stretch but two of them at
least refer to an earlier period such as the Elizabethan. Lennon's
song became a favorite with folk singers (it's the one that Dylan
answered with "Fourth Time Around" and more recently Morissette
definitely redid it with "Heart Of The House" after doing "Norwegian
Wood" in her live set).
We can see two mixolyian pseudo-folk progressions here [G F C G] and
[G d C G]. Then there's "Norwegian Wood" where the F vs Dm identity is
vague and the [G d F C G] which combines them. "Cinnamon Girl" would
seem to be the earliest.
Howard and Audrey
George Harrison later recorded a Lightfoot song although I
> don't know which one.
I have all of GH's released recordings and many of his boots. I don't
have nor have I ever heard of any Lightfoot songs being recorded by GH.
What is the source of this info and on what album/boot is this song
found?
Audrey
Nurk
"AllYourBaseAreBelongToUs" <AllYourBaseAreB...@newsguy.com>
wrote in message news:b13cs...@drn.newsguy.com...
> On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 04:58:20 GMT, in article
> <3e87772b....@news.supernews.com>, i...@hammo.com stated:
>
> >I don't know enough about Lightfoot to work out whether this chord
> >progression or tune were typical of his work. A discussion held at
> >alt.music.lightfoot concerning the origins of the song didn't mention
> >that topic either way (the conjecture was that the song "Take Me Back
> >To Derry" was the song it was based but it in fact turned out to be
> >the other way around).
"Back Home in Derry" was written in prison by IRA terrorist Bobby Sands,
later famed for starving himself to death, around 1980. Sands died in 1981.
Lightfoot wrote "Edmund Fitzgerald" in 1976.
One of the funnier notations attached to "Back Home in Derry" was "written
by Gordon Lightfoot and Tommy Sands," which appeared on a website some time
ago.
Slainte,
ld
"In 1803, we sailed out to sea,
Out from the sweet town of Derry
For Australia bound if we didn't all drown
And the marks of our fetters we carried.
In rusty iron chains we sighed for our wains
As our good wives we left home in sorrow
As the mainsails unfurled our curses we hurled
On the English and thoughts of tomorrow
Oh, I wish I was back home in Derry."
Vox Verus
Any comments on this?:
Chord progression of
Blue Skies (smilin' at me)
Summer Rain
Something (don't want to leave her now part - bridge)
Stairway to Heaven (base structure)
Countless others?
Christopher Jepson
Tales of Brave Ulysses?
Chris Jepson
Doug Campbell
Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned Clapton's 'Let it Rain', which
was originally written by him and Bonnie Bramlett as 'She Rides' while
Clapton was touring with that band, which would place it somewhere in
late 1969. The verse chord sequence is identical to 'It Don't Come Easy'.
DC
paramucho
If Sinatra never recorded a Lightfoot tune, there were plenty who
did. Among them: Elvis Presley, Bob Dylan, George Harrison, Peter
Paul & Mary, Johnny Cash, Judy Collins, and Glen Campbell. "I guess
the songs are playable," he says modestly. "They're songs that can
be interpreted."
http://www.corfid.com/gl/press/press51.htm
robertandrews
>Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned Clapton's 'Let it Rain', which was
originally written by him and Bonnie Bramlett as 'She Rides' while Clapton
was touring with that band, which would place it somewhere in late 1969. The
verse chord sequence is identical to 'It Don't Come Easy'.
I always miss the song I've played a thousand times.
Non-guitar players should note that all these D - Am songs are guitar based.
It's less common to write a song beginning with E - Bm, for example.
I think Tom Paxton has one with a similar progression, can't recall it now.
Howard and Audrey
unless it could be referring to a recording on which he was a sideman.
The only covers which he ever released (solo only - obviously he never
did any Lightfoot songs as a Beatle) were: If Not For You (ATMP), Bye
Bye Love (DH), True Love (33&1/3), Hong Kong Blues and Baltimore Oriole
(SIE), I Really Love You (GT), Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
(BW), Homeward Bound (with Paul Simon on the Romanian Appeal album), I
Don't Want To Do It (Porkys 2 soundtrack), and If Not For You and
Absolutely Sweet Marie (Dylan Tribute Concert). He may have done a
Lightfoot song on a bootleg, but I've never heard of it. Maybe he
recorded one with Dylan, as he was hanging out with him alot during the
late 60's early 70's. I don't think he played any Lightfoot during his
1974 Tour and I'm sure he didn't in Japan. Anyway, the quote kind of
implies that it was a released recording. I'm very curious as to what it
could possibly be.
Audrey
paramucho
<do...@sickofjunkmaine.rr.com> wrote:
>> We can see two mixolyian pseudo-folk progressions here [G F C G] and
>> [G d C G]. Then there's "Norwegian Wood" where the F vs Dm identity is
>> vague and the [G d F C G] which combines them. "Cinnamon Girl" would
>> seem to be the earliest.
>
>
>Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned Clapton's 'Let it Rain', which
>was originally written by him and Bonnie Bramlett as 'She Rides' while
>Clapton was touring with that band, which would place it somewhere in
>late 1969. The verse chord sequence is identical to 'It Don't Come Easy'.
Same basic tune ideas, a little higher, identical chords and in the
same key of D major (and another watery tune):
<B A G B |A F |F |G >
verse [G |d |F C |G ]
<B A G B |A F |F |G >
[G |d |F C |G ]
chorus [G d |G d |C G |G >
[G d |G d |C G |G ]
In the 1969/1971 period it's hard to know who was sleeping with whom
musically. Harrison and Clapton were sharing ideas. Delaney says he
helped write "My Sweet Lord". Harrison, Clapton and Starr were
recording and performing with each other all the time, often
uncredited. In short, it's pea soup as far as attribution goes.
Clapton and Harrison both toured with the Delaney/Bonnie/Friends show
in December 1969. If Harrison is an uncredited author on "It Don't
Come Easy" then he just as easily could be on "She Rides".
It's interesting to see how quickly this pattern became a standard. I
think there's something about it which really fitted into place, but
I'll write about that separately.
If we assume that "She Rides" was written in December 1969 then Neil
Young is still the first with the chord pattern.
paramucho
<camp...@erols.com> wrote:
My guess is that it was at one of the Dylan sessions. I checked
BEATLES UNDER COVER but found nothing (which doesn't mean there ain't
nothing there. It's a very hard book to use without decent indexes).
paramucho
<robert...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"Doug Campbell" <do...@sickofjunkmaine.rr.com> wrote:
>>Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned Clapton's 'Let it Rain', which was
>originally written by him and Bonnie Bramlett as 'She Rides' while Clapton
>was touring with that band, which would place it somewhere in late 1969. The
>verse chord sequence is identical to 'It Don't Come Easy'.
>
>I always miss the song I've played a thousand times.
So do I.
>Non-guitar players should note that all these D - Am songs are guitar based.
>It's less common to write a song beginning with E - Bm, for example.
Which is interesting when it comes to fitting tune to vocal range
chords.
>I think Tom Paxton has one with a similar progression, can't recall it now.
Now, that's going back to the late fifties, early sixties I guess. I
started off with his sort of thing on a jumbo bluegrass geetar.
paramucho
>
>It's interesting to see how quickly this pattern became a standard. I
>think there's something about it which really fitted into place, but
>I'll write about that separately.
Most of the examples below are in G rather than D.
MODAL FOUR THREE ONE
The thing about modes is that everything is relative to the tune
whereas in diatonic music everything is relative to the chords.
Many sections in rock songs have a diatonic structure that is partly
populated by modal sequences. Some rock song sections are almost
entirely modal.
Now, when I say modal I *don't* mean that they're based on the Musicke
of Ye Olde England. The modes belong to all periods of Western music
because they're an acoustical fact. We climb mountains, because
they're there and we use modes because they're there. The fact that
they have Greek sounding names doesn't matter at all since they got
the Greek names wrong anyway.
I'm not going to blather on about modes technically but rather present
a simple modal pattern, known as <431>, and follow it through some
songs. There's a related pattern, <4531> which is effectively the
same. Here is the pattern in the two forms I'll use it:
<4 3 1> <4 5 3 1>
A minor <D C A> <D E C A>
E minor <A G E> <A B G E>
Here the main examples I'll refer to. Some might say, "hey, <A> isn't
^1 in G major," which is true -- but we're dealing with modes which
are relative to the melodic segment, not the key.
<4 | 5 | 4 3 1 | >
<D | E | D C A |B >
<D ED |D ED | D CBAG|BCAB > Through,oh,you're giving
[a |D |a |b ] Not A Second Time JL/63
<4 | 3 1 | >
<D | C A |B >
<D | CBAB|BF#B > I thought that you
[a | |b ] I'll Be Back (in A) JL/64
< 43 1 >
< DC B |B AA > I've got a word or two
[a |d ] Think For Yourself GH/65
< 4 |531 >
<EGA |BGEG > Other eyes, reach out
[e |e ] Georgia
< 4 5|31 >
< AAB|GE > Eleanor Rigby
[e |e ] Eleanor Rigby PM/66
<4 5|3 1 >
<A GA B|G E > All the lonely people
[e7 |e6 ] Eleanor Rigby PM/66
< 4 5 |3 |1>
<C#DC#A EF#BA|G GAB|E> Let me take you down
[A |e |e] Strawberry Fields JL/66
< 5 4 |3 1 >
< B A |G E > Nothing you can do...
[G D/F#|e ] All You Need Is Love JL/67
< 1 3 |4 >
< B D |E > Piano high
< F#|G# > Piano low
[ b |E ] Bulldog sketch JL/67
< 4 5 |3 1 >
< A B |G E > Sexy Sadie
[G |F# ] Sexy Sadie JL/68
< 4 5 |3 1 >
< D E |C A > Cinnamon Girl et al 69+
[D |a ]
transposed: < A B |G E >
<A |e >
What I've tried to illustrate above is that the melodic sequence <431>
or <4531> is commonplace in Beatles' music. To use a concrete example,
the Beatles routinely pitch a <D> note against an A minor chord, even
though <D> is not a part of that chord. In the cases I've shown above
that note usually resolves by falling into some form of the modal
<431> pattern.
Take the first example from "Not A Second Time". If we were to
harmonise that <D> note we'd almost certainly sing a high <F#> which
implies a [D] chord.
<D | E | D C A |B >
< | | F#EDCB|DECD > Harmony part
<D ED |D ED | D CBAG|BCAB > Through,oh,you're giving
[a |D |a D a |b ] Not A Second Time JL/63
So, we can think of these modally pitched <4> notes as implicitly
supporting a chord of the same name.
What the "Strawberry Fields" pattern does is harmonise the modal <4>
note explicitly. The affect is quite bizarre because we have the tonal
interpretation of [A] as tonic and the modal interpretation of [A |e]
as a modal {IV|i} progression. Listen to itb "modally" and you might
make sense of the change for the first time in your life.
< 4 5 |3 |1>
<C#DC#A EF#BA|G GAB|E> Let me take you down
[A |e |e] Strawberry Fields JL/66
Here's how "Eleanor Rigby" would look with the pattern harmonised:
< A A B |G E >
[A |e ]
By doing this we start the song on [A] rather than on the tonic E
minor, a little bit like, say, "All My Loving" which begins [f# B|E]
even though the song is in E major. But this seems a bit different and
that's because the changes here *are* modal and not lined up like a
perfect pool shot to get back home.
In fact, in Ye Olden Modal days they recognised tunes which started
and ended away from the tonic. Tunes in E minor (or dorian or
whatever) could start and end with an [A] chord. If it doesn't make
sense to you then you're correct, it doesn't: the core driving force
here is the melody and *not* the harmony. That's why quite a few old
modal tunes were changed to fit the major/minor harmony thing.
The pattern for George Harrison's "Think For Yourself" doesn't quite
meet the criteria, but it's close and what does do is show pretty much
the continuation we see in the 1969 pattern:
/----------\ /-----------------\
< DC B |B A |F |E |D >
[a |d |Bb |C |G ] Think For Yourself
\--------+-------/ \------+-------+-------/
< G |F D |F E |D >
[G |d |F C |G ] 1969 Pattern
\--------+-------/ \--------------+-------/
It's the structure, or architecture, of the verse with the modal
opening and a plagal close which matters here. There are simple
equivalences that let [Bb C G] stand for [F C G].
Kev Kavanagh
hammond, only you could turn a simple folk songs into a three hundred word
diatribe peppered with plagal sandwiches and modal thingameebobs.
n "forty but unimpressive"a
paramucho
wrote:
I needed all that to convince myself. Here's the short version.
The 1969 "It Don't Come Easy" thing is like taking "Eleanor Rigby" and
starting with [A e] rather than just plain [e]. What they're doing is
harmonising the A note at the start of the song. Any questions?
Nathalie Fortin/Luc Landry
> The only covers which he ever released (solo only - obviously he never
> did any Lightfoot songs as a Beatle) were: If Not For You (ATMP), Bye
> Bye Love (DH), True Love (33&1/3), Hong Kong Blues and Baltimore Oriole
> (SIE), I Really Love You (GT), Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea
> (BW), Homeward Bound (with Paul Simon on the Romanian Appeal album), I
> Don't Want To Do It (Porkys 2 soundtrack), and If Not For You and
> Absolutely Sweet Marie (Dylan Tribute Concert).
You forgot Got My Mind Set On You...
--
Luc Landry
BIL...@webtv.net
Superior, they said, never gives up her dead When the gales of November
come early!
Same tune different lyrics!
Don't forget the intros to both songs.
IDCE: It Don't Come Easy, You Know It Don't Come Easy
WOTEF: It Don't Sink Easy, You Know It Don't Sink Easy
Same Tune!
Bill
paramucho
<rags__A@T__math.mcgill.ca.invalid> wrote:
>"mm" <r...@zoominternet.net> wrote in news:3e349...@corp.newsgroups.com:
>
>> Thanks "paramucho"...I just called it as I heard it...."and now it's all
>> this.."
>
>Fair enough ... we'll see where this leads then.
See below :-)
paramucho
That's a lot of homework guys...
paramucho
<AllYourBaseAreB...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 04:58:20 GMT, in article
><3e87772b....@news.supernews.com>, i...@hammo.com stated:
>
>>I don't know enough about Lightfoot to work out whether this chord
>>progression or tune were typical of his work. A discussion held at
>>alt.music.lightfoot concerning the origins of the song didn't mention
>>that topic either way (the conjecture was that the song "Take Me Back
>>To Derry" was the song it was based but it in fact turned out to be
>>the other way around).
>>
>>Was it nicked and does it matter? I don't know either way but I do
>>know that following down leads like these is almost always instructive
>>and usually enjoyable. I've gotten to know many interesting songs in
>>this way.
>
>
>Folk-pop, very melodic, very strong bluegrass/gaelic influences. The songs (and
>the album on which "Wreck" was released, "Summertime Dream" is a prime example)
>tend to be so melodically strong and symmetrical that they have a certain
>familiarity even on a first hearing. A song like "I'm not supposed to care" is
>as strong as any ballad Lennon ever penned.
>I always thought that McCartney's rather dopey (but fun) "Morse Moose" must have
>been at least partially inspired by "Wreck."
Lyrically:
Right on down at the bottom of the sea
Tell me are you receiving me?
My name is Morse Moose and I'm calling you
The grey goose was a steady boat
People said she's never float
One night when the moon was high
The grey goose flew away
As we were sailing 'round the rocks
The mate took out his compass box
And said the wind is like a fox
But the grey goose flew away
When out upon the open sea
The admiral, the mate and me
Prepared to face eternity
But the grey goose flew away
She flew into the stormy sea
Davy Jones was calling me
But heading for tranquility
The grey goose flew away
From Me To You
>If we assume that "She Rides" was written in December 1969 then Neil
>Young is still the first with the chord pattern.
If it was just about chord patterns, then couldn't one says that every three
chord song is based on every other three chord song?
I think it's the notes played that gives each song an identity all its own.
paramucho
Some patterns are quite common and shared. Others are distinctive as a
set of fingerprints. Then you've got all the interesting stuff in
between. In many cases it is a combination of chords and notes that
constitute the full pattern.
From Me To You
Exactly! And your either working within the harmonic wheel with its set of
rules, which would account for the fact that your seeing these chordal patterns
crop up, or you aren't and the song never stands a chance at being a hit! The
rules of the Harmonic Wheel dictate how the chords of a song are to fall, and
what one is to be sure to do if one chord might be skipped.
paramucho
I must confess I'd find it quite hard to agree with your assessement.
In fact, I couldn't agree less.
Kev Kavanagh
i must confess i find it hard to understand what the hell he is saying, let
alone disagree with it.
so anyway, where the hell do you buy these "Harmonic Wheels"?....:)
robertandrews
>The rules of the Harmonic Wheel dictate how the chords of a song are to
fall, and what one is to be sure to do if one chord might be skipped.
Let's start with the C major chord. What is the next chord that the
Harmonic Wheel dictates?
paramucho
Well, they're usually organised as a cycle of fifths (the first
appears in the late 1700s I think).
So, you'd have:
C G D A E B F# C#=Db Ab Eb Bb F C (G D A etc)
It's usually drawn as a circle.
Sometimes they put the relative minor chords on the inside:
C G D A E B F# C#=Db Ab Eb Bb F C (G D A etc)
Am Em Bb F#m etc
In one sense the circle points out a useful and very fundamental
relationship. But to take it to be much more than that is like
Painting By Numbers.
Of course, there are other sorts of circles and many forms of charts
and they do describe commonly used progressions. But if you tried to
write a song using them you'd end up with something very ordinary. "I
Am The Walrus" or "I'll Follow The Sun" would never arise out of these
charts. However, most of "Ob La Di" would, as you might expect does
come out of the chart. Although, that's so trivial that it tells us
nothing.
True inspiration can of course still come up with a great song using
just C, F and G. "Hey Jude" is a staggering example of what you can do
with three chords, but you ain't gonna draw that with numbers, or
anything else except blood.
Mister Charlie
"From Me To You" <alla...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030129010305...@mb-mh.aol.com...
Precisely. The structure is already set, and it falls to the
individuals to play within that structure as they like.
If you play outside of that wheel it doesn't sound correct for the most
part; resolutions (if there) are wrong...hell, you may as well be
playing jazz! ;-)
I recall reading some rock artist decades ago saying the reason he loved
rock n roll was because all you had to play with was 3 chords, and ALL
these differing melodies and variations coming from the same 3 chord
template (I-V-VII) is amazing. I agree.
>
Mister Charlie
"Kev Kavanagh" <K...@SSKev.com> wrote in message
news:b17u33$u7c$0...@pita.alt.net...
I got it. The circle of fifths, for instance, is an example, althought
that is a very basic and unwavering sort of sample.
>
>
Mister Charlie
"robertandrews" <robert...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:E7LZ9.5204$jj1...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
robertandrews
>Well, they're usually organised as a cycle of fifths (the first appears in
the late 1700s I think).
OK, so the "Harmonic Wheel" is just the circle of fifths. In light of the
description, I thought he had another wheel in mind.
From Me To You
>so anyway, where the hell do you buy these "Harmonic Wheels"?....:)
paramucho
That's the kind of thing I was talking about with the majors on the
outside, relative minors on the inside and other decorations, and it's
wrapped up in the usual Learn Music In Five Minutes Without Pain --
and there's nothing wrong with that.
Here's a website that also takes a Five Minute approach and uses lots
of pictures to present chord relationships graphically.
http://members.aol.com/chordmaps/
paramucho
<smoker...@myway.com> wrote:
>Precisely. The structure is already set, and it falls to the
>individuals to play within that structure as they like.
Wrong. The structure merely records what individuals do.
>If you play outside of that wheel it doesn't sound correct for the most
>part; resolutions (if there) are wrong...hell, you may as well be
>playing jazz! ;-)
Much of rock, including some of it's most important devices, fall
outside the traditional "wheel" and *do* sound wrong to older ears.
>I recall reading some rock artist decades ago saying the reason he loved
>rock n roll was because all you had to play with was 3 chords, and ALL
>these differing melodies and variations coming from the same 3 chord
>template (I-V-VII) is amazing. I agree.
Some classical music gets away with only two chords. Some music has
only one chord, or no chords at all. The Three Chord model used in
rockers comes from the blues and from country (think Hank Williams).
While there was a lot of three chord Rock 'n' Roll, there's little of
it in rock which is basically more uptown.
There's no (I-V-VII) template. (I-IV-V) is the common template. The
rock artist of decades ago had it the wrong way around -- it's a
simple fact that any white note can be harmonised by C, F or G. (I, IV
and V). Since most melodies are the equivalent of white note melodies,
most melodies can be harmonised by these notes.
Rynosseros
message <b18pg8$10i4q9$1...@ID-63206.news.dfncis.de>.
In response:
E bah gum
Ryno
--
"There is only one difference between a madman and me.
I am not mad."
- Salvador Dali. .
Kev Kavanagh
"Rynosseros" <WryKno...@tEotworld.com> wrote in message
news:3hqg3vsds2944vcgb...@4ax.com...
> In rec.music.beatles, "Mister Charlie" <smoker...@myway.com> posted
> message <b18pg8$10i4q9$1...@ID-63206.news.dfncis.de>.
> In response:
>
> >
> >"robertandrews" <robert...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:E7LZ9.5204$jj1...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> >> "From Me To You" <alla...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >The rules of the Harmonic Wheel dictate how the chords of a song are
> >to
> >> fall, and what one is to be sure to do if one chord might be skipped.
> >>
> >> Let's start with the C major chord. What is the next chord that the
> >> Harmonic Wheel dictates?
> >>
> >D sinus
> >
> E bah gum
F# demolished
Kev Kavanagh
- No Cirrus@teotworld.com Rynosseros
<b1a2ot$903$0...@pita.alt.net>.
In response:
G willikers demented
Ryno
--
"In Paris they simply stared when I spoke to them in French;
I never did succeed in making those idiots understand their
language."
- Mark Twain. .
Mister Charlie
"Rynosseros" <Rye - No Cir...@tEotworld.com> wrote in message
news:678h3v8ggcjdrk728...@4ax.com...
> In rec.music.beatles, "Kev Kavanagh" <K...@SSKev.com> posted message
> <b1a2ot$903$0...@pita.alt.net>.
> In response:
>
> >
> >"Rynosseros" <WryKno...@tEotworld.com> wrote in message
> >news:3hqg3vsds2944vcgb...@4ax.com...
> >> In rec.music.beatles, "Mister Charlie" <smoker...@myway.com>
posted
> >> message <b18pg8$10i4q9$1...@ID-63206.news.dfncis.de>.
> >> In response:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"robertandrews" <robert...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:E7LZ9.5204$jj1...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
> >> >> "From Me To You" <alla...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >> >The rules of the Harmonic Wheel dictate how the chords of a
song are
> >> >to
> >> >> fall, and what one is to be sure to do if one chord might be
skipped.
> >> >>
> >> >> Let's start with the C major chord. What is the next chord that
the
> >> >> Harmonic Wheel dictates?
> >> >>
> >> >D sinus
> >> >
> >> E bah gum
> >
> >F# demolished
> >
> G willikers demented
>
>
paramucho
wrote:
It's got a nice pace to it and no crap.
Doug Campbell
paramucho wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 00:53:33 GMT, Doug Campbell
> <do...@sickofjunkmaine.rr.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>We can see two mixolyian pseudo-folk progressions here [G F C G] and
>>>[G d C G]. Then there's "Norwegian Wood" where the F vs Dm identity is
>>>vague and the [G d F C G] which combines them. "Cinnamon Girl" would
>>>seem to be the earliest.
>>
>>
>>Unless I missed it, nobody has mentioned Clapton's 'Let it Rain', which
>>was originally written by him and Bonnie Bramlett as 'She Rides' while
>>Clapton was touring with that band, which would place it somewhere in
>>late 1969. The verse chord sequence is identical to 'It Don't Come Easy'.
>
>
> Same basic tune ideas, a little higher, identical chords and in the
> same key of D major (and another watery tune):
>
>
> <B A G B |A F |F |G >
> verse [G |d |F C |G ]
>
>
> <B A G B |A F |F |G >
> [G |d |F C |G ]
>
>
> chorus [G d |G d |C G |G >
>
> [G d |G d |C G |G ]
>
>
> In the 1969/1971 period it's hard to know who was sleeping with whom
> musically. Harrison and Clapton were sharing ideas. Delaney says he
> helped write "My Sweet Lord". Harrison, Clapton and Starr were
> recording and performing with each other all the time, often
> uncredited. In short, it's pea soup as far as attribution goes.
>
> Clapton and Harrison both toured with the Delaney/Bonnie/Friends show
> in December 1969. If Harrison is an uncredited author on "It Don't
> Come Easy" then he just as easily could be on "She Rides".
>
> It's interesting to see how quickly this pattern became a standard. I
> think there's something about it which really fitted into place, but
> I'll write about that separately.
>
> If we assume that "She Rides" was written in December 1969 then Neil
> Young is still the first with the chord pattern.
Speaking of 'watery' in regards to the chord progression, I also noticed
that there's a lot of "Let"/fluid/surrender imagery cropping up in the
Harrison/Clapton/Beatle songs of that era, esp. on All Things Must Pass.
To whit:
Let it Rain
Let it Down
"Let me...let me..." (I'd Have You Anytime)
Let it Roll
Let it Be
"Let it out and let it in"
FWIW.
DC
:) db
Mister Charlie
":) db" <fuckc...@hesucks.com> wrote in message
news:3EZ%9.13791$yb.4...@twister.austin.rr.com...
> What the FUCK is a "mixolyian pseudo-folk progression"
About ten cents a pound.
Budump bump.
Love your email addy.
>
>
Susan
smoker...@myway.com wrote on 2/4/03 9:13 PM:
Damn, Charlie. They love you here! If only you could collect some type of
royalties.
paramucho
wrote:
>What the FUCK is a "mixolyian pseudo-folk progression"
Well, a "progression" refers to a chord progression.
"psuedo-folk" means imitating the kind of chord progressions used in
folk music.
"mixolydian" describes songs like "A Hard Day's Night" where the
chords go [G F G]. That F chord is not what you'd find in your
ordinary doowop or western pop song. The only label I know for it is
"mixolydian" and it's used by lots of rock musicians.