"Subconscious Plagiarism" revisited
saki
Harrisongs Music Ltd (1983) are probably familiar with the
concept of subconscious copying of music from one source to
another. In ABKCO, the Second Circuit court suggested that
George Harrison, in writing "My Sweet Lord", had been
influenced, unconsciously, by the Chiffons' 1963 hit record
"He's So Fine". If you know both songs, you can probably
mentally hear the similarity even as we cyberspeak.
This week there's been another interesting judgment in music,
this time against a singer called Michael Bolton (whose oeuvre
lies out of my area of expertise, I must admit). Bolton's 1991
semi-hit "Love Is A Wonderful Thing" was just judged to have
been derived from the Isley Brothers' obscure 1964 record of
the same name.
The Isleys, under the name Three Boys Music Corporation, filed
a motion for copyright infringement in 1992 and won in 1996.
Bolton & Co. appealed and the judgment has just been handed
down again in the Isleys' favor.
Those of you who enjoy reading about these sorts of things may
want to check out the detailed report at
www.callaw.com/opinions. You may have to set up a free 30-day
trial account for yourself at Callaw but it's quite
informative (click on Intellectual Property opinions when you
get there) and shows what sort of precedent was set by the
ABKCO case, involving our George.
Several years ago, when "Free As A Bird" was released, there
were several comments about the similarity of a passage in
"FAAB" to the 1964 Shangri-Las' hit "Remember (Walking In The
Sand"), specifically the verse that begins "What ever happened
to...?"
At the time those of us involved in the discussion couldn't
figure out why the original songwriter of "Remember..." didn't
sue the Fabs for copyright infringement in "FAAB". Perhaps
because the two lines in question didn't constitute the bulk
of the song, or were, perchance, an homage and not a theft?
Perhaps due to the difficulty of figuring out which Beatle to
sue---Lennon? McCartney? All four? Or perhaps the songwriter
had never noticed the similarity?
I did a little research today and found out that the
songwriter of "Remember..." was also the Shangri-Las'
producer, George "Shadow" Morton (who also produced Janis
Ian's "Society's Child" among other mid-to-late sixties hits
by Vanilla Fudge, Mott the Hoople, The Young Rascals, Laura
Nyro, and Iron Butterfly).
Morton may indeed be unaware of the similar chord progressions
in "FAAB" and his own "Remember...", but more interesting to
me was his admission (in a 1991 Goldmine article) that he
lifted some of the melody of "Remember..." from a Modern Jazz
Quartet song called "Sketch", written in 1953 by MJQ pianist
John Lewis.
It may be that to prove copyright infringement in "FAAB", he'd
have to explain his own borrowings as well!
In any case, it suggests an interesting pedigree for "Free As
A Bird" that I didn't appreciate previously. And it brings to
mind another question: was the Shangri-Las' hit "Remember..."
the *real* source when the songwriters
Lennon/McCartney/Harrison/Starkey wrote the verse in question,
or was MJQ's "Sketch" actually an inspiration?
Knowing the Fabs' basic antipathy toward jazz, I'm leery of
the latter conclusion, but I'm willing to be convinced by any
music historian or musicologist who wants to give it a try.
--
"I got no kick against modern jazz...."
---------------------------------------
sa...@ucla.edu
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bongo
Fun stuff. There is a moment on the fine Arlo Guthrie/Pete
Seager album, where Pete passes on the wisdom passed along to
him:
"Plagiarism is basic to all culture"
In article <391B2442...@ucla.edu>, saki <sa...@ucla.edu>
wrote:
>Several years ago, when "Free As A Bird" was released, there
>were several comments about the similarity of a passage in
>"FAAB" to the 1964 Shangri-Las' hit "Remember (Walking In The
>Sand"), specifically the verse that begins "What ever happened
>to...?"
It's funny, a favorite guitarist of mine occasionally plays
a song on lap steel which I am told is titled "Sleepwalk",
originally played by the Shadows, I think. The chord
progression sounds extremely similar to the verses of FAAB,
particularly with the lap steel playing over the top of it.
I don't know if the similarity in the original is as striking,
but I wouldn't be too surprized.
cheers,
--bongo
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Tom
> It's funny, a favorite guitarist of mine occasionally plays
> a song on lap steel which I am told is titled "Sleepwalk",
> originally played by the Shadows, I think.
Santo and Johnny. It was the inspiration for Fleetwood Mac's Albatross,
which was the inspiration for Sun King.
Tom
> I did a little research today and found out that the
> songwriter of "Remember..." was also the Shangri-Las'
> producer, George "Shadow" Morton (who also produced Janis
> Ian's "Society's Child" among other mid-to-late sixties hits
> by Vanilla Fudge, Mott the Hoople, The Young Rascals, Laura
> Nyro, and Iron Butterfly).
>
> In any case, it suggests an interesting pedigree for "Free As
> A Bird" that I didn't appreciate previously. And it brings to
> mind another question: was the Shangri-Las' hit "Remember..."
> the *real* source when the songwriters
> Lennon/McCartney/Harrison/Starkey wrote the verse in question,
> or was MJQ's "Sketch" actually an inspiration?
>
> Knowing the Fabs' basic antipathy toward jazz, I'm leery of
> the latter conclusion, but I'm willing to be convinced by any
> music historian or musicologist who wants to give it a try.
>
I'd have to go with the Shangri-Las song, since Free as a Bird uses the
lyrics as well as the melody. My guess is that John had lyrics that
reminded him, consciously or subconsciously of Remember, and the melody just
flowed naturally from the words. (I'm almost positive he was aware of the
song, since The Shangs played with the Beatles at least once and Paul
McCartney has said in interviews that he's a fan of their's.)
Shadow Morton was once asked about it, and he said that while Free As A Bird
obviously takes from Remember, it was something that should be settled
between two songwriters and not taken to court. I took that to mean, "Apple
paid me off very handsomely not to make a fuss about it."
Lord Tim Brent
I have heard that John "borrowed" two lines from Elvis' Sun record of
Baby Let's Play House for the Rubber Soul track Run For Your Life,one
of the reasons that John later in his life said that he "Hated" Run
For Your Life.
Also,Sir George did get sued and lost for All You Need Is Love's use
of In The Mood,which GM thought was out of copyright.
The most blatant IMO was Brian Wilson's using the Sweet Little Sixteen
melody for Surfin' U.S.A.,and on the first few runs of 45's,only
Brian's name was on the label.Later pressing only had Chuck Berry's
name on the label,and the last pressings from the '80s and '90s had
Wilson-Berry.
Tim
-----------------
Duchy Of Grand Fenwick
thewalruswasDanny
> the latter conclusion, but I'm willing to be convinced by any
> music historian or musicologist who wants to give it a try.
Well MJQ were on Apple were they not? (Sapcor 4- Under the Jasmine Tree and
SAPCOR 10 - Space) so that must've been sanctioned by at least one fab.. so
it suggests that a fab or two were familiar with the work of MJQ. No?
Danny
Mitch4949
While the song may borrow a few words from "Remember," the chord structure
is completely different...it's hardly a case of plagiarism. It would never
hold up in court, IMO.
Mitch
Tom <Blac...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:z7IS4.13709$Ic5.4...@news3.mia...
:
: Shadow Morton was once asked about it, and he said that while Free As A
: Bird obviously takes from Remember, it was something that should be settled
: between two songwriters and not taken to court. I took that to mean,
: "Apple paid me off very handsomely not to make a fuss about it."
eve plumb
stated:
>
>>
>Morton may indeed be unaware of the similar chord progressions
>in "FAAB" and his own "Remember...", but more interesting to
>me was his admission (in a 1991 Goldmine article) that he
>lifted some of the melody of "Remember..." from a Modern Jazz
>Quartet song called "Sketch", written in 1953 by MJQ pianist
>John Lewis.
>
The way the law is now, it seems to be much easier to prevail on a claim of
copyright infringement based on melodic similarities. Similar underlying chord
progressions, without more, won't get you very far as a plaintiff, it seems to
me. There's a recognition in the doctrine that there are any number of standard
chord progressions that may be similar without an implication of copying
arising. Because actual copying (and not just similarity or identicality) is
necessary to make out a prima facie case of copyright infringement (unlike in
patent law), it would normally be pretty hard for a chord progression, without
more, to support the necessary implication of access to the original work on the
part of the defendant. I don't know the songs in question, is there a melodic
similarity with the Beatles song? Although I love the way Paul performs the
section in question and the way the chords fit in with the rest of the song
structure, it really isn't much of a "melody".
interstate5
JLS
The norwegian singer Bente Lind released in 1964 a song called "Go Joe" .
the verses of the song is almost note for note "Obladi Oblada". The refrain
is quite different.
Happy Xmas/war is over is very much "Stewball". That was a folk
song --wasn't it ?I know Hollies did it.
After the Ball(Pauls Back to the egg album) is very much Amazing graze.
JLS
Doug Campbell
JLS wrote:
> Happy Xmas/war is over is very much "Stewball". That was a folk
> song --wasn't it ?I know Hollies did it.
You are right. I think Peter, Paul & Mary also did that one
'Well Stewball was a racehorse...." (And so this is Xmas)
DC
thewalruswasDanny
> song --wasn't it ?I know Hollies did it.
Aged 12 I learnt how to play "Stewball" and was amazed when the teacher
presented Happy Xmas with different words. It is the same! I can't figure
out why Johnny wsn't sued over this one.
Danny
Rufus Leaking
>the verses of the song is almost note for note "Obladi Oblada". The refrain
>is quite different.
and in an odd twist, Brian "Dexter" Holland of Offspring freely admits he
copped the rhythm and cadence of "Why Don't You Get a Job" from Ob-la-di,
Ob-la-da....
Dave
"Hid in the reeds are eyes that peek,
voices I don't understand.
Flamingos fly endlessly,
To the silent sky"
JLS
thewalruswasDanny skrev i meldingen <8foupr$ji$7...@gxsn.com>...
>> Happy Xmas/war is over is very much "Stewball". That was a folk
>> song --wasn't it ?I know Hollies did it.
>
>Aged 12 I learnt how to play "Stewball" and was amazed when the teacher
>presented Happy Xmas with different words. It is the same! I can't figure
>out why Johnny wsn't sued over this one.
>
>Danny
It's a folk song or traditional .and nobody(or everybody) owns it.
JLS
Rufus Leaking
>presented Happy Xmas with different words. It is the same! I can't figure
>out why Johnny wsn't sued over this one.
Mostly because "Stewball" aka "Skewball" is an old old English folk song from
the late 18th or early 19th century and the author or authors are long unknown
and the song is public domain. Fwiw I love Steeleye Span's version "skewball"
Dave
"Hid in the reeds are eyes that peek,
voices I don't understand.
Flamingos fly endlessly,
To the silent sky"
--
sporter
it? It becomes a case of "conscious plagiarism", it seems to me. I know
Bob Dylan has credited himself for writing some folk classics that were around
before he could pick up a harmonica. Do you just slap your name on it, and
it's yours?
Rufus Leaking wrote:
> >Aged 12 I learnt how to play "Stewball" and was amazed when the teacher
> >presented Happy Xmas with different words. It is the same! I can't figure
> >out why Johnny wsn't sued over this one.
>
> Mostly because "Stewball" aka "Skewball" is an old old English folk song from
> the late 18th or early 19th century and the author or authors are long unknown
> and the song is public domain. Fwiw I love Steeleye Span's version "skewball"
--
Steve A. Porter
1991 YJ "Swampmouse"
Built tough with Chevy stuff
Edward S. Chen
>> from the late 18th or early 19th century and the author or authors are long
>> unknown and the song is public domain.
>
> it? It becomes a case of "conscious plagiarism", it seems to me. I know
> Bob Dylan has credited himself for writing some folk classics that were
> around before he could pick up a harmonica. Do you just slap your name on it
If you cover a public domain song, the most you would be entitled to is
an "arranging" credit. ASCAP has over 40 arrangements of Beethoven's
Moonlight Sonata on file, and nearly 80 (!!) versions of
Row, Row, Row Your Boat! A Beatles example is "All My Trials," which is
credited as "Trad. arr. Paul McCartney"
If you add new lyrics to an existing PD composition, it is a "derivative work."
Any songwriter is allowed to copyright that work. It should be noted, the new
copyright does *not* invalidate the fact the original song is in the public
domain. In other words, if we say "Happy Xmas/War Is Over" is derivative
of "Stewball," that does not invalidate the Lennon copyright on "HX/WIO".
However, you could go out and record "The Easter Song" (to the tune of
"Stewball") without paying any royalties, and without a valid lawsuit.
Despite that fact, if the mythical "TES(tttoS)" was performed with Sleigh
Bells, a children's choir, and a Lennon sound-alike at the front, and you
did not seek permission on the arrangement, you just *might* be hearing from
the Lennon attorneys for infringement :-)
<ESC>
Chris Dashiell
There's a line from "Julia" which is straight out of
Kahlil Gibran's _Sand and Foam_. The lyric about
heart and mind, I think. Forgive me, I'm writing on
the fly here.
Dash
Rande
>hold up in court, IMO.
hello,
It doesn't matter if it would hold up in court. If enough people believe a
songwriter is ripping off another songwriter in their minds there will always
be a cloud of suspicion concerning that person.
I don't mind a fragment of a song sounding like another song but if the
whole darn song is one big ripoff the writer loses all creditability with me
and I will no longer buy his cd's
As in My Sweet Lord
rande.........
SEAHORSE011
like'Don't worry Baby
'---but when I see you darling it's like we both are falling......(she
makes me come alive,and makes me want to drive when she says...
D. Rusnak
the copying of a certian number of notes in a sequence or of a number of music
measures is permitted.
saki wrote:
>
> Morton may indeed be unaware of the similar chord progressions
> in "FAAB" and his own "Remember...", but more interesting to
> me was his admission (in a 1991 Goldmine article) that he
> lifted some of the melody of "Remember..." from a Modern Jazz
> Quartet song called "Sketch", written in 1953 by MJQ pianist
> John Lewis.
--
Mike
>
>Happy Xmas/war is over is very much "Stewball". That was a folk
>song --wasn't it ?I know Hollies did it.
And also there are strong links to the backing vocals in the choruses of
"The Winner Takes It All" (Abba) from these two songs :)
--
--------------------------------------+------------------------------------
Mike Brown: mjb[at]pootle.demon.co.uk | Music Project: www.mp3.com/poachers
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