Ryche can write...
Jakk21
In my opinion, Queensryche has pretty much mastered the song writing
thing. They just crank out excellent songs one after the other. I am not
interested in hearing 6 songs that are 15 minutes each on an album. (exagerated)
I am not interested in hearing an instrumental go on for 6 - 10 minutes at
a time. It gets resundant and boring. Ryche knows how to write a song.
And they are better at it now then they were in the mid 80's. A hell of a
lot better. I believe that everything from empire on is better music than
their previous stuff. Granted... I love all their music, but Empire turned
things around for them. It made them a divine band. NO band has ever put
together an album as beautifull as Empire.
Sure, OM kicked ass. it is an amazing concept album and every song rocks.
but it is still 80's cheese. I prefer HITNF to OM any day. We are in the
90's now. Ryche is writing 90's music. THANK GOD.
And if I want to hear long instrumentals done astonishingly well, I will
listen to pink Floyd. Not Dream theater. (sorry guys, I had to throw that
one in.) Or I will listen to some Ozzy stuff. these guys excell at that.
ok.. i am getting off the original subject. later...
Marshal
Mindcrimer
Jakk21 wrote:
>
> In my opinion, Queensryche has pretty much mastered the song writing
> thing. They just crank out excellent songs one after the other. I am not
> interested in hearing 6 songs that are 15 minutes each on an album. (exagerated)
> I am not interested in hearing an instrumental go on for 6 - 10 minutes at
> a time. It gets resundant and boring. Ryche knows how to write a song.
> And they are better at it now then they were in the mid 80's. A hell of a
> lot better. I believe that everything from empire on is better music than
> their previous stuff. Granted... I love all their music, but Empire turned
> things around for them. It made them a divine band. NO band has ever put
> together an album as beautifull as Empire.
> Sure, OM kicked ass. it is an amazing concept album and every song rocks.
> but it is still 80's cheese.
Ahhh! Blasphemy! 80's cheese is:
"Girls, Girls, Girls....long legs and burgundy lips."
"At the drive-in, in the old man's Ford, behind the bushes til I'm
screaming for more"
"I need a woman not some little girl who has to grow up in daddy's big
world."
"She's my Cherry Pie! (ok, that's 1990 but it's the same deal)
You get the point. Operation: Mindcrime is not 80's cheese. It's
thought provoking, musically challenging, dark, mysterious, complex, and
a lot of effort and thought went into it. I don't think you can say the
same for the above songs. No denying that Empire is a great album
though.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Something...just out of reach."
R˙che World: http://w3.one.net/~qryche/
Email: qry...@one.net
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
caissa
Jakk21 <jak...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970906235...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
(snip)
> Sure, OM kicked ass. it is an amazing concept album and every song
rocks.
> but it is still 80's cheese. I prefer HITNF to OM any day. We are in
the
> 90's now. Ryche is writing 90's music. THANK GOD.
Other than the obvious political references in Mindcrime (eg. wars in South
America, footage on Mindcrime video of David Duke, etc...) how would you
know that it was written in the 80's? I like HITNF okay but it pales in
comparison to Mindcrime. I am just curious how you can tell that a song was
written in a certain decade. "All I Want" from HITNF sounds like something
right out of the 70's, reminded me of the Bay City Rollers to be honest
with you. Songs like "I Will Remember" or "Take Hold Of The Flame" sound
as fresh today as the first time I heard them in the 80's.
Jason
CD Rocken
<<"All I Want" from HITNF sounds like something
right out of the 70's, reminded me of the Bay City Rollers to be honest
with you.>>
Bay City Rollers? Oh no, please say t'aint so! (:::::::inserting quick
apology to any BCR fans... they're just not... me:::::::::::) If that song
reminds me of any other band, it would be the Beatles. :) Makes sense,
when you consider that DeGarmo sites them as a major influence.
Mike Z
>Jakk21 wrote:
>>
>> In my opinion, Queensryche has pretty much mastered the song writing
>> thing. They just crank out excellent songs one after the other. I am not
>> interested in hearing 6 songs that are 15 minutes each on an album.
(exagerated)
>> I am not interested in hearing an instrumental go on for 6 - 10 minutes at
>> a time. It gets resundant and boring. Ryche knows how to write a song.
>> And they are better at it now then they were in the mid 80's. A hell of a
>> lot better. I believe that everything from empire on is better music than
>> their previous stuff. Granted... I love all their music, but Empire turned
>> things around for them. It made them a divine band. NO band has ever put
>> together an album as beautifull as Empire.
>> Sure, OM kicked ass. it is an amazing concept album and every song rocks.
>> but it is still 80's cheese.
>
> Ahhh! Blasphemy! 80's cheese is:
>
> "Girls, Girls, Girls....long legs and burgundy lips."
> "At the drive-in, in the old man's Ford, behind the bushes til I'm
>screaming for more"
> "I need a woman not some little girl who has to grow up in daddy's big
>world."
> "She's my Cherry Pie! (ok, that's 1990 but it's the same deal)
>
> You get the point. Operation: Mindcrime is not 80's cheese. It's
>thought provoking, musically challenging, dark, mysterious, complex, and
>a lot of effort and thought went into it. I don't think you can say the
>same for the above songs. No denying that Empire is a great album
>though.
>
Agreed! If Mindcrime were released today instead of in the '80's I would love
it just the same. It's a timeless work of art.
Yours,
Mike
--
*************************************************************
MIRROR Check out the lastest MIRROR release,
PO Box 430 "Reflections"
Thiells, NY 10984 Available on Eroica Records
Http://www.tco.com/MIRROR
*************************************************************
Silently Lucid
Mindcrimer wrote:
>
> Jakk21 wrote:
> >
> > In my opinion, Queensryche has pretty much mastered the song writing
> > thing. They just crank out excellent songs one after the other. I am not
> > interested in hearing 6 songs that are 15 minutes each on an album. (exagerated)
> > I am not interested in hearing an instrumental go on for 6 - 10 minutes at
> > a time. It gets resundant and boring. Ryche knows how to write a song.
> > And they are better at it now then they were in the mid 80's. A hell of a
> > lot better. I believe that everything from empire on is better music than
> > their previous stuff. Granted... I love all their music, but Empire turned
> > things around for them. It made them a divine band. NO band has ever put
> > together an album as beautifull as Empire.
> > Sure, OM kicked ass. it is an amazing concept album and every song rocks.
> > but it is still 80's cheese.
>
> Ahhh! Blasphemy! 80's cheese is:
>
> "Girls, Girls, Girls....long legs and burgundy lips."
> "At the drive-in, in the old man's Ford, behind the bushes til I'm
> screaming for more"
> "I need a woman not some little girl who has to grow up in daddy's big
> world."
> "She's my Cherry Pie! (ok, that's 1990 but it's the same deal)
OUCH! I guess I still live in the past. Motley Crue,Poison,Ratt and
Warrent. I still have a place for these in my listening table. I know
your gonna poke fun at me for still liking these bands or for liking
them at all, but I do. I can honestly say, though, that the Ryche is by
far the best of them all.
Cheese? Well, ok, I guess they do fall into that category now. I guess
when I hear one of the 80's "cheese" songs, it just brings back good
memories(yes.....the straight jacket memories). HEHE
>
> You get the point. Operation: Mindcrime is not 80's cheese. It's
> thought provoking, musically challenging, dark, mysterious, complex, and
> a lot of effort and thought went into it. I don't think you can say the
> same for the above songs. No denying that Empire is a great album
> though.
>
> _________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> "Something...just out of reach."
>
> R˙che World: http://w3.one.net/~qryche/
> Email: qry...@one.net
> __________________________________________________________________________________________________
--
Jim F.
"Every time I think I've won, I hear your voice inside....QUESTIONING!"
ERIC LAYMAN
Hello, all. It's been a while since I last communicated with this
NG, but I just wanted to interject something about what everyone is
referring to as "80s cheese."
Firstly, I think the term "cheese" is better suited to something
contemporary than to someting from the past. I think it's defining
characteristic is that it has no value of it's own aside from the
immediate entertainment that it might provide. The handful of bands
that everyone is associating with the term "cheese" is only testifying
to their staying power as artists. Ratt, Poison, Dokken, Warrant,
Motley Crue, and Quiet Riot (yes, even _them_) were all instrumental in
defining the sound that was dominant in music--dominant in most popular
art forms--in the mid- to late-80s. They hardly qualify as "cheese."
They simply produced music that is reflective of the time in which they
were living. It's all the bands whose names you DON'T remember that are
the cheese. They had no staying power and were just trying to jump on a
bandwagon.
Secondly, Queensryche is in no way recognizable as an "80s band"
except by the copyright dates on their records. They write songs that
aspire to a timeless quality. Most of their songs are reflecting
emotions and states of the human condition that are as timely now as
when they were first written. "Roads to Madness" is one song that I
have been listening to a LOT lately, and it's as vital today as it was
in 1984 (I can't believe that song is that old). Granted, even the
"Ryche has not hit the mark with every song and some of them do sound a
bit dated, but if you were to put together a retrospective containing
the highlights of their catalog, I'm sure it would sound as vital today
as it will twenty years from now.
Lastly, I just want to say that I am not one to suddenly think that
a song is just not good anymore simply because it's old or because there
is something more hip. I find it a little bothersome and kind of sad
that people's attitudes towards rock bands from the 80s are so hostile
or belittling. The main reason that those bands are not big today is
that they were completely abandoned by their fans when the next "big
thing" (Nirvana) came along. We really need to celebrate all of the
diverse types of music that are out there. I know that Smashing
Pumpkins, Prodigy, and Motley Crue recently did a European tour
together, so at least _they_ are trying to break down the barriers.
Maybe next time they can add West Side Connection and maybe En Vogue.
That would be a true celebration.
Eric L
Eric Layman--Lead Vocals, Lyrics, Guitar
www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/1259/elaymanhome.html
caissa
ERIC LAYMAN <VoxMa...@webtv.net> wrote in article
<5uuptf$9r4$1...@newsd-1.alma.webtv.net>..
(Snip)
> Secondly, Queensryche is in no way recognizable as an "80s band"
> except by the copyright dates on their records. They write songs that
> aspire to a timeless quality. Most of their songs are reflecting
> emotions and states of the human condition that are as timely now as
> when they were first written. "Roads to Madness" is one song that I
> have been listening to a LOT lately, and it's as vital today as it was
> in 1984 (I can't believe that song is that old). Granted, even the
> "Ryche has not hit the mark with every song and some of them do sound a
> bit dated, but if you were to put together a retrospective containing
> the highlights of their catalog, I'm sure it would sound as vital today
> as it will twenty years from now.
I totally agree. Some "Cheese" contenders from the 80's that jump to mind
are:
Danger Danger, Beau Nasty, Britny Fox, Kingdom Come, Black N Blue,
Badlands, and White Lion, just name a few. Queensryche has showed staying
power through the years which is a true testament to their songwriting
ability as well as their close knit union as a band.
Jason
LFulk33
and then I heard Chris say that after recording the song he realized it
was very Beatle-esque, but he didn't plan on it being that way
- Larry
Long Island Revolution
"Read between the lines, criticize the words they're selling
Think for yourself and feel the walls become sand beneath your feet"
LFulk33
> Ahhh! Blasphemy! 80's cheese is:
>
> "Girls, Girls, Girls....long legs and burgundy lips."
> "At the drive-in, in the old man's Ford, behind the bushes til I'm
>screaming for more"
> "I need a woman not some little girl who has to grow up in daddy's big
>world."
> "She's my Cherry Pie! (ok, that's 1990 but it's the same deal)
>
> You get the point. Operation: Mindcrime is not 80's cheese. It's
>thought provoking, musically challenging, dark, mysterious, complex, and
>a lot of effort and thought went into it. I don't think you can say the
>same for the above songs. No denying that Empire is a great album
>though.
>
>
when he says '80s cheese' i believe he just means that it's 80s metal, and
80s metal is 80s metal =)
i don't think he meant the lyrics, ideas or talent involved in writing it
LFulk33
>> Sure, OM kicked ass. it is an amazing concept album and every song
>rocks.
>> but it is still 80's cheese. I prefer HITNF to OM any day. We are in
>the
>> 90's now. Ryche is writing 90's music. THANK GOD.
>
>Other than the obvious political references in Mindcrime (eg. wars in South
>America, footage on Mindcrime video of David Duke, etc...) how would you
>know that it was written in the 80's? I like HITNF okay but it pales in
>comparison to Mindcrime. I am just curious how you can tell that a song was
>written in a certain decade. "All I Want" from HITNF sounds like something
>right out of the 70's, reminded me of the Bay City Rollers to be honest
>with you. Songs like "I Will Remember" or "Take Hold Of The Flame" sound
>as fresh today as the first time I heard them in the 80's.
>
>Jason
>
you can tell that OMC was written in the 80s because it is CHEESEY 80S
METAL! that is a genre, in my opinion.. and while it is the best album ever
made in the "Cheesey 80s metal" genre, it's still IN that genre
if you can't tell that OMC was written in the 80s, then you haven't
listened to enough music from the 90s and 80s
noone would DARE write anything like that now
Shabba2
Marshal? Is that you? If you choose to answer yes, please refer to the
image in the mirror. 80's Cheese? Saying that on this NG is akin to walking
into a KKK meeting and yelling "I love blacks and I am DAMN proud of it!" I
mean, things like that will get a guy killed....especially in New York....
Anyway enough of that te he. Do you really think so? OM opened up so much
for the band and is honestly their most intelligent work to date IMHO.
Promised land is very close, but that is a more philosophical album. Cheese
metal? Isn't that stuff like Winger and Trixter, Poison and Overkill?
Hmmmmmm.....
-Colin
Paul J Ready
LFulk33 wrote:
> you can tell that OMC was written in the 80s because it is CHEESEY 80S
> METAL! that is a genre, in my opinion.. and while it is the best album ever
> made in the "Cheesey 80s metal" genre, it's still IN that genre
> if you can't tell that OMC was written in the 80s, then you haven't
> listened to enough music from the 90s and 80s
> noone would DARE write anything like that now
"cheesy 80s metal" as a genre is an offshoot of an older genre
that was 80s metal... which O:M is clearly a part of.
I do agree... no one would have the stones to write anything
like it. For that matter, I don't see anyone that could.
johan....@mailbox.swipnet.se
> "caissa" <cai...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>I am still interested in knowing what
> specific examples from Mindcrime (other than lyrics that date the album
> such as "wars in South America" etc...) you can give me to illustrate your
> vast knowledge on musical genres ;-)
You'll be able to hear it, first and foremost on the sound. Secondly, you'd
be able to hear it on some of the arrangements and the playing.
atb (all the best)
johan berlin - TIMESCAPE
caissa
LFulk33 <lfu...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970908033...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
(Snip)
> you can tell that OMC was written in the 80s because it is CHEESEY 80S
> METAL! that is a genre, in my opinion.. and while it is the best album
ever
> made in the "Cheesey 80s metal" genre, it's still IN that genre
> if you can't tell that OMC was written in the 80s, then you haven't
> listened to enough music from the 90s and 80s
> noone would DARE write anything like that now
>
> - Larry
Larry,
I have to disagree with your summation that I have not listened to enough
music written from the 80's and 90's in order tell that an album was
written in a specific genre. Aside from your blasphemous referral to
Mindcrime as "Cheesy 80's metal" I think you have attempted to declare
yourself as an ominicient musical historian proficient in identifying what
genre an album was created. So tell me, what would you call the genre that
HITNF was written in? Perhaps, the Cheesy 90's metal genre? If so, why
would Chris write a song like "All I Want" which you mentioned in another
post in this thread that has been compared to the Beatles, a little group
from the 60's. How could anyone DARE write something that doesn't sound
like it came right out of the 90's? I am still interested in knowing what
specific examples from Mindcrime (other than lyrics that date the album
such as "wars in South America" etc...) you can give me to illustrate your
vast knowledge on musical genres ;-)
Jason
caissa
johan....@mailbox.swipnet.se wrote in article
<5v0grh$k...@mn5.swip.net>...
> You'll be able to hear it, first and foremost on the sound. Secondly,
you'd
> be able to hear it on some of the arrangements and the playing.
>
> atb (all the best)
>
> johan berlin - TIMESCAPE
>
This is still a very general answer to my inquiry. Mindcrime does not
scream out, "I'm an 80's album, I'm an 80's album!" Please cite a specific
example in a song from Mindcrime.
Jason
Ralf Daniels
LFulk33 wrote:
>
> you can tell that OMC was written in the 80s because it is CHEESEY 80S
> METAL! that is a genre, in my opinion.. and while it is the best album ever
> made in the "Cheesey 80s metal" genre, it's still IN that genre
> if you can't tell that OMC was written in the 80s, then you haven't
> listened to enough music from the 90s and 80s
> noone would DARE write anything like that now
>
Stop mentioning 'Operation: Mindcrime' and 'cheese' in one sentence.
Those are two completely different things with absolutely ZERO
correlation. It's insulting to mention those two items in one sentence,
or even in one paragraph. Or even blasphemy.
<shudders from the horror of it all>
Flar.
--
"So keep that smile on your face, have a drink to help you sleep at
night.
They got what they desired, we're passive in their brave new world."
New Model Army,'Brave New World'.
CD Rocken
<<well, i thought Beatles the first time i heard All I Want
and then I heard Chris say that after recording the song he realized it
was very Beatle-esque, but he didn't plan on it being that way>>
I think I caught that interview... he didn't plan on it being that way,
but it sort of showed how you often end up going back to your roots.
(Well, something like that. I don't have the interview anywhere near me at
this particular moment....)
Shaye69
Jason Kramer (jkr...@shell.monmouth.com) wrote:
>Jakk21 (jak...@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: their previous stuff. Granted... I love all their music, but Empire turned
>: things around for them. It made them a divine band. NO band has ever put
>: together an album as beautifull as Empire.
>
>top Empire.
>
>When Empire came out on Sep 4, 1990, it completely blew me
>away like no album had ever done. The album just consumed me.
>
Alright, I'm tired of this strange felling that I'm the only one here with
any of my opinions! :-) Please, tell me, is it the drugs or my rapidly
advancing age? Help!!!!
Shaye
LFulk33
>> you can tell that OMC was written in the 80s because it is CHEESEY 80S
>> METAL! that is a genre, in my opinion.. and while it is the best album ever
>> made in the "Cheesey 80s metal" genre, it's still IN that genre
>> if you can't tell that OMC was written in the 80s, then you haven't
>> listened to enough music from the 90s and 80s
>> noone would DARE write anything like that now
>
>that was 80s metal... which O:M is clearly a part of.
>
>I do agree... no one would have the stones to write anything
>like it. For that matter, I don't see anyone that could.
once again, you misunderstand
when i say "cheesy" and "no one would play that now" i merely mean the
STYLE.. not the difficulty..
CD Rocken
<<>I'm in complete agreement with you. I don't think they will ever
>top Empire.>>
What do you mean, exactly, when you say that they will never "top" Empire?
Granted, it was the most popular album as far as sales was concern, but
I'm guessing that's not what makes it impossible to "top". So what do you
mean? For me, Empire is a great album, but each of them stand alone in
their own right... the content, for me, is very hard to compare to anything
else. If I had to be nailed down to a favorite, I would still select three:
Rage For Order, Promised Land, and Hear In The Now Froniter. And even
then, I look in the direction of the other albums and see something
outstanding here and there.....
LFulk33
>Larry,
> I have to disagree with your summation that I have not listened
to enough
>music written from the 80's and 90's in order tell that an album was
>written in a specific genre. Aside from your blasphemous referral to
>Mindcrime as "Cheesy 80's metal" I think you have attempted to declare
>yourself as an ominicient musical historian proficient in identifying what
>genre an album was created. So tell me, what would you call the genre that
>HITNF was written in? Perhaps, the Cheesy 90's metal genre? If so, why
>would Chris write a song like "All I Want" which you mentioned in another
>post in this thread that has been compared to the Beatles, a little group
>from the 60's. How could anyone DARE write something that doesn't sound
>like it came right out of the 90's? I am still interested in knowing what
>specific examples from Mindcrime (other than lyrics that date the album
>such as "wars in South America" etc...) you can give me to illustrate your
>vast knowledge on musical genres ;-)
>
>Jason
you really have no clue what i'm saying
I said that "cheesey 80s metal" is a genre that *I* group some music in
obviously it's not a real genre
that's just what i call it.. i don't care what other people call it.. but
whatever they call it, it probably will have something to do with metal
and metal is a VERY definite 80s thing
CD Rocken
<<While I love all Queensryche albums to death, I feel that Empire
is simply their best, and I 'll be surprised if they release
anything that has more of an impact on me.>>
Okay. Thanks. :)
caissa
LFulk33 <lfu...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970908212...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> you really have no clue what i'm saying
> I said that "cheesey 80s metal" is a genre that *I* group some music in
> obviously it's not a real genre
> that's just what i call it.. i don't care what other people call it.. but
> whatever they call it, it probably will have something to do with metal
> and metal is a VERY definite 80s thing
You're right, I missed the boat. I guess you are saying that Queensryche
was considered metal in the 80's and now they are not? I would agree with
that, IF that is what you are saying.
Jason
GOP4ME
>if you can't tell that OMC was written in the 80s, then you haven't
>listened to enough music from the 90s and 80s
>noone would DARE write anything like that now
How unfortunate
-Derek
ERIC LAYMAN
The best example is Pretty Boy Floyd. They were (_are_) a brie on the
cheese scale.
Jason Kramer
Jakk21 (jak...@aol.com) wrote:
: their previous stuff. Granted... I love all their music, but Empire turned
: things around for them. It made them a divine band. NO band has ever put
: together an album as beautifull as Empire.
I'm in complete agreement with you. I don't think they will ever
top Empire.
When Empire came out on Sep 4, 1990, it completely blew me
Wanda L. Lincoln
Jason Kramer wrote:
> When Empire came out on Sep 4, 1990, it completely blew me
> away like no album had ever done. The album just consumed me.
Aren't you forgetting another album that came out August 8th of 1990,
that must have had quite an impact on you as well?
Dave L
P.S. Couldn't resist, saw your name and had to give you some shit. Can't
wait for Jan 18, 1998!!!!!
Jason Kramer
CD Rocken (cdro...@aol.com) wrote:
: What do you mean, exactly, when you say that they will never "top" Empire?
Silently Lucid
johan....@mailbox.swipnet.se wrote:
>
> > sha...@aol.com (Shaye69) writes:
>
> > but E'Nuff Z'Nuff probably takes the
> > (cheese)cake in my book!
>
> On the contrary, I'd say that Enuff Z'nuff
> (despite the way they looked) were one of the
> best (and most talented songwriters) around at that
> time. They put out some truly great music, very
> Beatles-esque, but with a harder edge.
> Not bad at all...
>
> ATB (all the best)
>
> Johan Berlin - TIMESCAPE
This just goes to show how everyone has their own MIND to think and
form their own opinions with. Just the type of people who would like
QUEENSRYCHE! This is a good example of why Ryche fans are known as the
"thinking Fans"
Personally, I liked most of the 80's stuff. I grew up listening to Def
Leppard, Ratt, Motley Crue, Great White, Dokken(I just saw them this
past sat., they were still very good...especially George Lynch),
Cinderella, Poison.....and most importantly Queensryche. I liked them
then and still like most of them now. I guess I just like to reminisce
about the "good times" when I hear an "old" song from my teenage years.
Just a thought,
johan....@mailbox.swipnet.se
Shaye69
Ralf Daniels <ra...@klft.tn/tudelft.nl> wrote:>LFulk33 wrote:
>>
>> you can tell that OMC was written in the 80s because it is CHEESEY 80S
>> METAL! that is a genre, in my opinion.. and while it is the best album ever
>> made in the "Cheesey 80s metal" genre, it's still IN that genre
>> listened to enough music from the 90s and 80s
>> noone would DARE write anything like that now
>>
>
>Stop mentioning 'Operation: Mindcrime' and 'cheese' in one sentence.
>Those are two completely different things with absolutely ZERO
>correlation. It's insulting to mention those two items in one sentence,
>or even in one paragraph. Or even blasphemy.
><shudders from the horror of it all>
>
>Flar.
>--
sounds like most of the ones commenting here weren't even around in the
late 80's... I mean, please, O:M does *not* sound all that dated... please,
clue me in someone, tell me a few of the bands *YOU* would call cheese,
'cuz I don't think we're talking about the same thing here... and I really
want to figure this out...
Shaye
Shaye69
>I totally agree. Some "Cheese" contenders from the 80's that jump to mind
>are:
>Danger Danger, Beau Nasty, Britny Fox, Kingdom Come, Black N Blue,
>Badlands, and White Lion, just name a few.
>Jason
>
>
Whoa! Badlands, cheese?!? Don't know about that... and Black 'N Blue had
a couple of damn good albums in the early to mid 80's... the rest, I think
I pretty much agree with... but E'Nuff Z'Nuff probably takes the
(cheese)cake in my book!
Shaye
Mike Z
In article <19970908182...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, gop...@aol.com
(GOP4ME) wrote:
>>if you can't tell that OMC was written in the 80s, then you haven't
>>listened to enough music from the 90s and 80s
>>noone would DARE write anything like that now
>
>How unfortunate
>
That about says it all Derek. How unfortunate indeed. Why is music
today so frivolous? Why do genres get knocked out of place to usher
in the next thing that the record companies think they can make big
money off of while the older styles are consider passe to the point of
being taboo (at least in Larry's opinion). I thank God that there are bands
out there like FW that continue on in the vein of what was created in the
80s. It's not always good to be new. Now cheese is another topic all
together. QR is not cheese, nor have they ever been. To say that something
is cheesy implies that it has no substance. The examples that MC gave were
perfect (Cherry Pie, etc.). Toward the end of the 80's metal explosion metal
began to be packaged in an easy to digest sort of formula that was low on
talent and high on hair. This had nothing to do with QR and nothing to do
with many of the great metal bands out there.
Why is it that people think that a type of music that was created just a
decade ago
is now taboo? Is it becasue you're bombarded by the media telling you so?
Music has become a fashion show. This years style will be out next year and so
on. How can anyone say that legitamate intelligent, great music can't be
written
using the same materials as were used in the 80's? I listen to Bach.
Isn't that
ridiculous?! I'm way out of touch! Why must every mold be broken every few
years for something to be good? That's foolishness.
Yours,
Mike
--
*************************************************************
MIRROR Check out the lastest MIRROR release,
PO Box 430 "Reflections"
Thiells, NY 10984 Available on Eroica Records
Http://www.tco.com/MIRROR
*************************************************************
Mike Z
>johan....@mailbox.swipnet.se wrote:
>>
>> > sha...@aol.com (Shaye69) writes:
>>
>> > but E'Nuff Z'Nuff probably takes the
>> > (cheese)cake in my book!
>>
>> On the contrary, I'd say that Enuff Z'nuff
>> (despite the way they looked) were one of the
>> best (and most talented songwriters) around at that
>> time. They put out some truly great music, very
>> Beatles-esque, but with a harder edge.
>> Not bad at all...
>>
>> ATB (all the best)
>>
>> Johan Berlin - TIMESCAPE
>
> This just goes to show how everyone has their own MIND to think and
>form their own opinions with. Just the type of people who would like
>QUEENSRYCHE! This is a good example of why Ryche fans are known as the
>"thinking Fans"
>
>Personally, I liked most of the 80's stuff. I grew up listening to Def
>Leppard, Ratt, Motley Crue, Great White, Dokken(I just saw them this
>past sat., they were still very good...especially George Lynch),
>Cinderella, Poison.....and most importantly Queensryche. I liked them
>then and still like most of them now. I guess I just like to reminisce
>about the "good times" when I hear an "old" song from my teenage years.
>
I think that everyone has a soft spot for what they grew up with. I grew up
with some things that I listen to for nostalgia's sake that I would probably
hate if it came out now. Music has that wonderful quality of taking you back
to a place in time.
Shaye69
>> Ahhh! Blasphemy! 80's cheese is:
>>
>> "Girls, Girls, Girls....long legs and burgundy lips."
>> "At the drive-in, in the old man's Ford, behind the bushes til I'm
>>screaming for more"
>> "I need a woman not some little girl who has to grow up in daddy's big
>>world."
>> "She's my Cherry Pie! (ok, that's 1990 but it's the same deal)
>>
>> You get the point. Operation: Mindcrime is not 80's cheese. It's
>>thought provoking, musically challenging, dark, mysterious, complex, and
>>a lot of effort and thought went into it. I don't think you can say the
>>same for the above songs. No denying that Empire is a great album
>>though.
>>
Thank you... I don't see how anyone can group Queensryche with bands such
as Crue, Poison, Ratt, or Warrant,*especially* their later 80's stuff... at
least it seems that someone is kind of on my wave length...
Shaye
Jason Kramer
Wanda L. Lincoln (wlin...@maine.maine.edu) wrote:
: Jason Kramer wrote:
: > When Empire came out on Sep 4, 1990, it completely blew me
: > away like no album had ever done. The album just consumed me.
: Aren't you forgetting another album that came out August 8th of 1990,
: that must have had quite an impact on you as well?
It was actually August 1, 1990! Both albums are awesome,
but I like Empire a tiny bit better.
synthuser
Mike Z wrote:
Well said, and another reason why I disconnected my cable service
and have eliminated tv from life. I don't need someone to tell
me what is good or bad or what genre is now cool or what is not.
Fuck them!
Great points, Mike! We are such the disposable society. Molds are
broken because then people will have to buy new molds. Its all
about fucking money. Its wacked, and the sad part is, it is so
easy to see, we are becomming this gigantic homogenized society.
Great comment on the "music is fashion concept," sadly I feel that
this is just to close to the mark. Do I need to see Martha Stewart
at a so called music awards show- DON'T THINK SO.
TV is evil, it is is non-interactive, it is biased, its sole purpose
is to get you to spend your money, it is the ULTIMATE CARNIVAL BARKER -
come on in and see the three horned cow.
LOL no thanks, there's a million other things I'd rather do:)
--
"where I stand is not so far from YOU
a different opinion is just another point of view"
Point of View - Parallels / FW
synthuser
I look forward to being pleasantly surprised :)
Jeffrey Elgharably
Mike Z wrote:
> In article <19970908182...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> gop...@aol.com
> (GOP4ME) wrote:
>
> >>if you can't tell that OMC was written in the 80s, then you haven't
> >>listened to enough music from the 90s and 80s
> >>noone would DARE write anything like that now
> >
> >How unfortunate
> >
> --
> *************************************************************
> MIRROR Check out the lastest MIRROR release,
> PO Box 430 "Reflections"
> Thiells, NY 10984 Available on Eroica Records
>
> Http://www.tco.com/MIRROR
> *************************************************************
I think you've expressed the opinions of a lot of us, Mike, and if
I'm not mistaken the opinions of QR too. :)
synthuser
Mike Z wrote:
> Thanks, I hope I did. I haven't gone on a tyraid in a while, but this is
> one of
> those subjects that really gets me going.
>
And I thought it was just too many late nights mixing the new cd ;)
(or you quit drinking decaf ;) A little tyraid now and then
can't hurt. Anyway thought your response was quite right, cheers :_)
Mike Z
In article <34156...@sonic.net>, *nospam*bns...@sonic.net wrote:
>Well said, and another reason why I disconnected my cable service
>and have eliminated tv from life. I don't need someone to tell
>me what is good or bad or what genre is now cool or what is not.
>Fuck them!
>
Gotta agree with you there, Synth. TV is a pretty horrible thing. I
think that there is a lot to be learned on the tube, but it's incredibly
(if not impossibly) difficult to avoid the attempts by the media to
control your ideas of what you should think is good and what you
should spend your money on. If I listen to the media I'd throw
away all the CD's that I have because they're not in fashion.
>Great points, Mike! We are such the disposable society. Molds are
>broken because then people will have to buy new molds.
Exactly :^)! That's why car makers make cars that suck. I've actually
heard that they can make cars that last a hell of a lot longer, but why do
that when they can just make you buy another one when the old one
breaks down. In this case what's breaking down is your feeling that
your on the "inside." You're no longer with the in crowd because of
what you wear or what you listen to so you have to go get more stuff.
They play upon people's insecurities to make them purchase shit. That
same shit is also aimed at a particular martket so as to alienate them from
the other markets. Look at the generation X'ers. They are within the
primary record buying crowd. It's a fact that people between the ages of
14-21 buy most of the albums out there. So what does the record
companies try to do? They try to create a feeling of "this is our music and
fuck everything else" into the shit that they're trying to sell to that crowd
(also a group greatly influenced by peer pressure). This having been done
the kids run out to buy all the Nirvana (that poor band has come to stand
for all
that's wrong today :^) albums because it's "their" music. This guy hated his
fans. He blew his head off to get away from them. He just needed a way
to express how much he hated everything and music provided that outlet.
There is no real reason why this has become "their" music. There are many
many bands out there creating music that that generation would enjoy that is
created by people in that age range or people sensative to people in that age
range. The people in the age range just aren't exposed to it because there is
no commercial outlet for that music because the music industry has *decided
for them* what they should accept. The music industry has told them who is
old and what is cheesy and what is new and fashionable. That's really grim if
you ask me. Think for yourselves everyone. The music that's offered to you
on the radio is only the tip of the iceberg of what's going on and what's gone
on. The radio is just one big commercial anyway. They are trying to make you
buy those albums. Do you think that they're nice people going, "Hey, let's play
this song. It's a really great song. I think that our listeners will
enjoy this,"?
No way! They are trying to sell airtime to sponsors and trying to sell
records for
the record companies.
>Its all
>about fucking money. Its wacked, and the sad part is, it is so
>easy to see, we are becomming this gigantic homogenized society.
>
People need to rebel against that. People should check out different
types of music.
I hope that independent lables will make a more varied selection of music
available
to the average listener. There already is a huge amount of music out
there, it's just
that people are such zombies that they just go and buy the stuff they're
told to buy.
It's the old, "You need this you worthless piece of shit," thing.
>TV is evil, it is is non-interactive, it is biased, its sole purpose
>is to get you to spend your money, it is the ULTIMATE CARNIVAL BARKER -
>come on in and see the three horned cow.
>LOL no thanks, there's a million other things I'd rather do:)
>
Come on in and buy the three horned cow is more like it ;^)!
Mike Z
In article <34157A6E...@flash.net>, Jeffrey Elgharably
<acti...@flash.net> wrote:
>Mike Z wrote:
>
>> In article <19970908182...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>> gop...@aol.com
>> (GOP4ME) wrote:
>>
>> >>if you can't tell that OMC was written in the 80s, then you haven't
>> >>listened to enough music from the 90s and 80s
>> >>noone would DARE write anything like that now
>> >
>> >How unfortunate
>> >
>> --
>> *************************************************************
>> MIRROR Check out the lastest MIRROR release,
>> PO Box 430 "Reflections"
>> Thiells, NY 10984 Available on Eroica Records
>>
>> Http://www.tco.com/MIRROR
>> *************************************************************
>
> I think you've expressed the opinions of a lot of us, Mike, and if
>I'm not mistaken the opinions of QR too. :)
Thanks, I hope I did. I haven't gone on a tyraid in a while, but this is
one of
those subjects that really gets me going.
Yours,
Rager93
johan....@mailbox.swipnet.se wrote:
>
> > sha...@aol.com (Shaye69) writes:
>
> > but E'Nuff Z'Nuff probably takes the
> > (cheese)cake in my book!
>
> On the contrary, I'd say that Enuff Z'nuff
> (despite the way they looked) were one of the
> best (and most talented songwriters) around at that
> time. They put out some truly great music, very
> Beatles-esque, but with a harder edge.
> Not bad at all...
>
> ATB (all the best)
>
> Johan Berlin - TIMESCAPE
Wow Johan,
I am surprised that you like Enuff Z'nuff, doesn't seem like your
style. I will go on record here as well as an Enuff Z'uff fan. I think
there debut album was phenomenal. Strength was also a pretty decent
album as well. You know if Johan thinks these guys are talented they
must be.:-)
Later
Phil
LADIEINBLK
>In a post dated Tue, 9 Sep 1997 04:19:20 GMT mir...@tco.com (Mike Z)
wrote:
>Toward the end of the 80's metal explosion, metal
>began to be packaged in an easy to digest sort of formula
>that was low on talent and high on hair. This had nothing to
>do with QR and nothing to do with many of the great metal
>bands out there.
Sad but very true, imo. (well said Mike). As an added opinion,
I always said and still feel that it was Twisted Sister that started
the downward spiral.
"Have you ever been lonely, afraid to speak your mind?
Are you ever reminded to trust THE VOICE INSIDE?"
Peace, Robin
So. Cal Empire of Global Minds
http://members.aol.com/ladieinblk/index.html
LFulk33
>That about says it all Derek. How unfortunate indeed. Why is music
>today so frivolous? Why do genres get knocked out of place to usher
>in the next thing that the record companies think they can make big
>money off of while the older styles are consider passe to the point of
>being taboo (at least in Larry's opinion). I thank God that there are bands
>out there like FW that continue on in the vein of what was created in the
>80s. It's not always good to be new. Now cheese is another topic all
>together. QR is not cheese, nor have they ever been. To say that something
>is cheesy implies that it has no substance. The examples that MC gave were
>perfect (Cherry Pie, etc.). Toward the end of the 80's metal explosion metal
>began to be packaged in an easy to digest sort of formula that was low on
>talent and high on hair. This had nothing to do with QR and nothing to do
>with many of the great metal bands out there.
>
>Why is it that people think that a type of music that was created just a
>decade ago
>is now taboo? Is it becasue you're bombarded by the media telling you so?
>Music has become a fashion show. This years style will be out next year and
>so
>on. How can anyone say that legitamate intelligent, great music can't be
>written
>using the same materials as were used in the 80's? I listen to Bach.
>Isn't that
>ridiculous?! I'm way out of touch! Why must every mold be broken every few
>years for something to be good? That's foolishness.
>
>Yours,
>
>Mike
ok, this is getting WAY off of what marshal was saying
what he said was that OMC is the best album, but it is still metal
i was merely agreeing with that, and trying to clarify what he meant to
the others
Jakk21
>>>>>>you can tell that OMC was written in the 80s because it is CHEESEY 80S
>METAL! that is a genre, in my opinion.. and while it is the best album ever
>made in the "Cheesey 80s metal" genre, it's still IN that genre
>listened to enough music from the 90s and 80s
>noone would DARE write anything like that now
Thank you Larry... you hit the nail right on the head. That is exactly
how I feel about it.
and that is exactly what I meant when I posted.
How can a person even think that it doesnt sound like 80's metal... It is
80's metal. It dont sound like 90's grunge, and it dont sound like disco.
it sounds like awesome metal made in the 80's. and I love it. but that
was then and now is now. It would be cool if they did a sequel to that
album with different music. more HITNF like.. that would be incredible.
Marshal
Jakk21
>>>>>>>> I have to disagree with your summation that I have not
listened to enough
>music written from the 80's and 90's in order tell that an album was
>written in a specific genre. Aside from your blasphemous referral to
>Mindcrime as "Cheesy 80's metal" I think you have attempted to declare
>yourself as an ominicient musical historian proficient in identifying what
>genre an album was created. So tell me, what would you call the genre that
>HITNF was written in? Perhaps, the Cheesy 90's metal genre? If so, why
>would Chris write a song like "All I Want" which you mentioned in another
>post in this thread that has been compared to the Beatles, a little group
>from the 60's. How could anyone DARE write something that doesn't sound
>like it came right out of the 90's? I am still interested in knowing what
>specific examples from Mindcrime (other than lyrics that date the album
>such as "wars in South America" etc...) you can give me to illustrate your
>vast knowledge on musical genres ;-)
>
>Jason>>>>>>>>>
That is ridiculous. All I want is ONE song. the album as a whole can
clearly be identified as written in the 90's. Just as Empire can be
identified as an early 90's, and mindcrime as an 80's album. If you cant
tell the difference between them, then larry was correct. You havent heard
enough music from the genres. Different years create different types of
music. The 80's is famous for the type of metal that queensryche played.
They just did it alot better. All albums have a few different types of
songs on them. but for the most part, they can be identified as being made
in a certain time period. It is just a plain fact. It cant be argued
cause its true.
It is like saying that wearing bell bottoms wasnt something done in the
70's. When it was. And in 1985, even though a few people might have worn
bell bottoms, it was still classified as a 70's way of dressing. And if it
becomes very popular again, which it might be, then it will be known as a
90's way of dressing also.
Marshal
LFulk33
>> you really have no clue what i'm saying
>> I said that "cheesey 80s metal" is a genre that *I* group some music in
>> obviously it's not a real genre
>> that's just what i call it.. i don't care what other people call it.. but
>> whatever they call it, it probably will have something to do with metal
>> and metal is a VERY definite 80s thing
>
>You're right, I missed the boat. I guess you are saying that Queensryche
>was considered metal in the 80's and now they are not? I would agree with
>that, IF that is what you are saying.
>
>Jason
>
>
more or less, yes
i'm saying that O:MC in particular is metal, and no popular bands play
metal anymore.. that is why you can tell it's from the 80s
Jakk21
>when he says '80s cheese' i believe he just means that it's 80s metal, and
>80s metal is 80s metal =)
>i don't think he meant the lyrics, ideas or talent involved in writing
it>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Thank you Larry, That is exactly what I meant. I think Operation
Mindcrime was the best album made back then. But even though it is
intelligent, thought provoking, innovative, etc... it is still 80's metal.
And for the most part, 80's metal is "cheese". Hell, I like most 80's shit
more than 90's shit.
Here is a great example. I had a friend at my house the other day that
likes some of Ryches stuff. He has only heard Empire, promised land, and
some of HITNF. he is in love with Empire... which led him to buy Promised
land. He didnt really like it much, but admitted its qualities. From what
he's heard, he really likes HITNF. So I decided to play some Mindcrime for
him. I put on the needle lies. The first words out of his mouth were
,"This is 80's speed metal" And as much as I love mindcrime and that
particular song, I couldnt argue with him. That is what it is. The whole
album is just really good 80's metal. Now I love it, but dont try to say
that it is timeless and if it was made today would have the same effect.
IT WOULDNT....... It is an 80's album... that is the bottom line. I dont
want to hear music made today that sounds like music that was made in the
80's. To ME... and most of you, the album is timeless. that is because we
love ryche and mindcrime. but to other people, it is 80's cheese with a
lot more intelligence than the rest.
Marshal
LFulk33
>
>: Aren't you forgetting another album that came out August 8th of 1990,
>: that must have had quite an impact on you as well?
>
>It was actually August 1, 1990! Both albums are awesome,
>but I like Empire a tiny bit better.
>
>
>
can you help some of us (maybe just me) that have no clue who you are
talking about? =)
Jakk21
>You're right, I missed the boat. I guess you are saying that Queensryche
>was considered metal in the 80's and now they are not? I would agree with
>that, IF that is what you are saying.
>Jason>>>>>>>>>>>
Nobody is talking about Queensryche. We are talking about Operation
Mindcrime. Ryche stood the test of time, they arent a metal band. they
are an evolved band that I cant even think about labeling. to put them
into a musical genre would take away from them. they are trully whatever
they want to be. but there music reflects the time period that they are
writing it in. And Operation Mindcrime reflects an album made in the
1980's. Are you going to try and tell me that their EP isnt an 80;s album.
It is just a really good metal album that could have been made anytime.
Of course it isnt. It is a 80's cheese metal album. I just happen to like
it a hell of alot more than anything else made back then. but if ryche
didnt evolve, I dont think I would still be listening to them. Nor would
they have made an album like Empire that sold over 3 million copies.
Marshal
Jakk21
>>--
>Um, hello? Could someone tell me what ya'll are calling "cheese?" It
>sounds like most of the ones commenting here weren't even around in the
>late 80's... I mean, please, O:M does *not* sound all that dated... please,
>clue me in someone, tell me a few of the bands *YOU* would call cheese,
>'cuz I don't think we're talking about the same thing here... and I really
>want to figure this out...
I think a big problem is that people think that we are reffering to
Queensryche as 80's cheese. NOTHING could be further from the truth. I
said that OM is 80's cheese. And it is. Now dont jump down my throat
about it. it is brilliant album, intelligent, gifted, innovative.
etc...... but it is still 80's metal and 80's metal is cheese.
i still love it.
Marshal
Jakk21
> I think you've expressed the opinions of a lot of us, Mike, and if
>I'm not mistaken the opinions of QR too. :)>>>>>>>>
Actually, it was chris on an interview that said that the music industry
is very healthy because it is constantly in a state of change.
Isnt it ironic that a bunch of people that love 80's type music are pissed
off about change... but think about it this way. if it wasnt for change,
there would have never been 80's music. there would have never been 70's
music... etc. there has to be a change in music. it is inevitable. and
it is healthy as can be.
Marshal
Jakk21
>Marshal? Is that you? If you choose to answer yes, please refer to the
>image in the mirror. 80's Cheese? Saying that on this NG is akin to walking
>into a KKK meeting and yelling "I love blacks and I am DAMN proud of it!" I
>mean, things like that will get a guy killed....especially in New York....
>Anyway enough of that te he. Do you really think so? OM opened up so much
>for the band and is honestly their most intelligent work to date IMHO.
>Promised land is very close, but that is a more philosophical album. Cheese
>metal? Isn't that stuff like Winger and Trixter, Poison and Overkill?
>Hmmmmmm.....
>-Colin>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes Colin it was me. I wrote that mindcrime is 80's cheese. I also wrote
that it is briliant and one of my favorite albums of all time. I love
operation Mindcrime. and i understand that it is intelligent, thought
provoking, etc... but that doesnt change what it is. i had a friend over
that other day that never heard it before. he called one of the songs
80's speed metal. and truthfully, that is what it is. I love it anyway,
but it is 80's metal. and we are almost in the 2000's. music has evolved.
fortunately, so has Queensryche....
I do however disagree with Mindcrime being their most intelligent album.
I feel that Empire is by FAR their most intelligent work. They invoke
emotions on that album that rival most illegal substances. :)
Marshal
Jakk21
>Why is it that people think that a type of music that was created just a
>decade ago
>is now taboo? Is it becasue you're bombarded by the media telling you so?
>Music has become a fashion show. This years style will be out next year and
>so
>on. How can anyone say that legitamate intelligent, great music can't be
>written
>using the same materials as were used in the 80's? I listen to Bach.
>Isn't that
>ridiculous?! I'm way out of touch! Why must every mold be broken every few
>years for something to be good? That's foolishness.
>
>Yours,
>
I have to disagree with you on this one Mike... Music was just as much a
fashion show then as it is now. The industry is in a constant state of
change, and I feel that it is good. My favorite decade of music is
definately the 70's. most of my favorite bands come from that decade. but
thank god that bands arent writing music like that now. Everything must
change eventually. clothing styles change, hair styles change, music
changes, etc. It was really cool to have really high hair sprayed hair in
the 80's. but people think it looks ridiculous now. and it does. cause
its an 80's hairstyle. it doesnt belong on peoples heads now. Why do you
think Ryche stopped wearing the leather. Leather is out. it is 80's.
and this is the 90's. change is healthy. and it is Queensryches ability
to change that makes them great.
Marshal
Shaye69
Okay, I'm *not* jumping down anyone's throat, but, as I thought, you're
using that term differently than I would... I wouldn't say O:M sounds much
like a lot that was out in '88, tho...
"Why must people categorize, live the propaganda lies?"
(Wrathchild America)
johan....@mailbox.swipnet.se
> Rager93 <rag...@pacbell.net> writes:
> I am surprised that you like Enuff Z'nuff, doesn't seem like your
> style. I will go on record here as well as an Enuff Z'uff fan. I think
> there debut album was phenomenal. Strength was also a pretty decent
> album as well. You know if Johan thinks these guys are talented they
> must be.:-)
Phil !!! Long time .... no newsgroup postings...
Happy to hear that you like EZ as well. My favourite album is Strength. I
think they're first album is a little too average and glammy. Strength really
showed they're songwriting abilities and that's what counts in my book :-))
ATB
johan - timescape
johan....@mailbox.swipnet.se
> jak...@aol.com (Jakk21) writes:
> So I decided to play some Mindcrime for
> him. I put on the needle lies. The first words out of his mouth were
> ,"This is 80's speed metal" And as much as I love mindcrime and that
> particular song, I couldnt argue with him. That is what it is.
That wasn't a very representative song to put on....
Why didn't you take one that's more representative for the album and
one that isn't speed metal ? I believe that Needle Lies is the fastest
song QR ever did, so no wonder he thought it was speed metal.
Why didn't you choose Eyes of Stranger, Revolution Calling, Op. MC,
Suite Sister Mary. The Needle Lies is the most "common" song on the
album IMO.
johan....@mailbox.swipnet.se
> lfu...@aol.com (LFulk33) writes:
> and no popular bands play
> metal anymore.. that is why you can tell it's from the 80s
Really ?? What about Metallica, Megadeth, Pantera, Type O Negative.
What would you call those bands ?
ATB
johan - timescape
caissa
Jakk21 <jak...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970910041...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> That is ridiculous. All I want is ONE song. the album as a whole can
> clearly be identified as written in the 90's. Just as Empire can be
> identified as an early 90's, and mindcrime as an 80's album. If you cant
> tell the difference between them, then larry was correct. You havent
heard
> enough music from the genres. Different years create different types of
> music. The 80's is famous for the type of metal that queensryche played.
> They just did it alot better. All albums have a few different types of
> songs on them. but for the most part, they can be identified as being
made
> in a certain time period. It is just a plain fact. It cant be argued
> cause its true.
I agree that music changes over the years and I agreed with Larry's answer
about Mindcrime as being metal, and metal being more popular in the 80's.
> It is like saying that wearing bell bottoms wasnt something done in the
> 70's. When it was. And in 1985, even though a few people might have
worn
> bell bottoms, it was still classified as a 70's way of dressing. And if
it
> becomes very popular again, which it might be, then it will be known as a
> 90's way of dressing also.
> Marshal
THIS is a ridiculous comparison. The Fashion industry has always repeated
itself throughout time. Some fashions never go out of style regardless of
the current trend.
Jason
caissa
Jakk21 <jak...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970910042...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> >You're right, I missed the boat. I guess you are saying that Queensryche
> >was considered metal in the 80's and now they are not? I would agree
with
> >that, IF that is what you are saying.
> >Jason>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Nobody is talking about Queensryche. We are talking about Operation
> Mindcrime. Ryche stood the test of time, they arent a metal band. they
> are an evolved band that I cant even think about labeling. to put them
> into a musical genre would take away from them.
So sorry, I was referring to Mincrime but I wrote the band's name instead.
> but if ryche didnt evolve, I dont think I would still be listening to
them.
> Nor would they have made an album like Empire that sold over 3 million
copies.
>
Marshal
The evolution of Queensryche has been a vital part in their staying power.
I would probably not listen to them either if they had not evolved. My
whole question throughout this thread was why Mindcrime was considered an
80's cheese album, I believe my question has been answered. I still think
"Cheese" is a degrading term to associate with ANY Queensryche album even
if your definition of the word is less harsh than the way I believe most
fans would interpret it.
Jason
Mike Z
In article <19970910041...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, jak...@aol.com
(Jakk21) wrote:
>
>That is ridiculous. All I want is ONE song. the album as a whole can
>clearly be identified as written in the 90's. Just as Empire can be
>identified as an early 90's, and mindcrime as an 80's album. If you cant
>tell the difference between them, then larry was correct. You havent heard
>enough music from the genres. Different years create different types of
>music. The 80's is famous for the type of metal that queensryche played.
>They just did it alot better. All albums have a few different types of
>songs on them. but for the most part, they can be identified as being made
>in a certain time period. It is just a plain fact. It cant be argued
>cause its true.
>70's. When it was. And in 1985, even though a few people might have worn
>bell bottoms, it was still classified as a 70's way of dressing. And if it
>becomes very popular again, which it might be, then it will be known as a
>90's way of dressing also.
>
explain why you think that metal from the 80's was cheesy. It was what it
was. Why do you classify it all as cheesy, or is there w/cheese and w/o
cheese? Maybe there's metal with ketchup and tomato, too ;^)!
BTW, you know that I'd never really blast you becasue it's because of you
that I got to meet that cheesy 80's metal band Queensryche ;^)! I owe you
and I know it.
Mike Z
In article <19970910042...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, jak...@aol.com
(Jakk21) wrote:
>>You're right, I missed the boat. I guess you are saying that Queensryche
>>was considered metal in the 80's and now they are not? I would agree with
>>that, IF that is what you are saying.
>>Jason>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Nobody is talking about Queensryche. We are talking about Operation
>Mindcrime. Ryche stood the test of time, they arent a metal band. they
>are an evolved band that I cant even think about labeling. to put them
>into a musical genre would take away from them. they are trully whatever
>they want to be. but there music reflects the time period that they are
>writing it in. And Operation Mindcrime reflects an album made in the
>1980's. Are you going to try and tell me that their EP isnt an 80;s album.
> It is just a really good metal album that could have been made anytime.
>Of course it isnt. It is a 80's cheese metal album. I just happen to like
>it a hell of alot more than anything else made back then. but if ryche
>didnt evolve, I dont think I would still be listening to them. Nor would
>they have made an album like Empire that sold over 3 million copies.
>
You know, the new Fates Warning album sounds like it could have been
made it the 80's to me. It doesn't wreak of the foolishness that is the 90's
music scean (that doesn't sound bitter, does it ?:^). It's timeless music to
me, just as Mindcrime is. There are certain sounds that are associated with
different times. The 80's guitar sound is associated with precission and
clarity whereas the 90's guitar sound is associated with sloppiness and
muddiness. Give me the 80's anytime. I'll wear those fucking "bellbottoms"
until real music comes back into style.
Mike Z
In article <19970910042...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, jak...@aol.com
(Jakk21) wrote:
>I think a big problem is that people think that we are reffering to
>Queensryche as 80's cheese. NOTHING could be further from the truth. I
>said that OM is 80's cheese. And it is. Now dont jump down my throat
>about it. it is brilliant album, intelligent, gifted, innovative.
>etc...... but it is still 80's metal and 80's metal is cheese.
>
I think that it's very obvious from this statement that we differ as to
the definition of cheese.
Mike Z
In article <19970910043...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, jak...@aol.com
(Jakk21) wrote:
>>Why is it that people think that a type of music that was created just a
>>decade ago
>>is now taboo? Is it becasue you're bombarded by the media telling you so?
>>Music has become a fashion show. This years style will be out next year and
>>so
>>on. How can anyone say that legitamate intelligent, great music can't be
>>written
>>using the same materials as were used in the 80's? I listen to Bach.
>>Isn't that
>>ridiculous?! I'm way out of touch! Why must every mold be broken every few
>>years for something to be good? That's foolishness.
>>
>>Yours,
>>
>>Mike>>>>>>>>.
>
>I have to disagree with you on this one Mike... Music was just as much a
>fashion show then as it is now.
Oh, I agree with you 100%. I never said that it wasn't. I just think that that
particular "fashion" produced better music than the ones today do.
>The industry is in a constant state of
>change, and I feel that it is good. My favorite decade of music is
>definately the 70's. most of my favorite bands come from that decade. but
>thank god that bands arent writing music like that now.
Why not? If you like that kind of music you like it and that's it! If someone
gave you a song that was written in a "70's" style does that mean that you
won't like it? How would you know that it was written today and not actually
written back then? What's so bad about stuff sounding like that? Like I said
before, I listen to Bach. That's a few hundred years of "outdatedness." Should
people today not listen to that music? Should symphonies of today not play that
music? Should writers today not write using the forms that Bach did? Look at
how "outdated" they are!
>Everything must
>change eventually. clothing styles change, hair styles change, music
>changes, etc. It was really cool to have really high hair sprayed hair in
>the 80's. but people think it looks ridiculous now. and it does. cause
>its an 80's hairstyle. it doesnt belong on peoples heads now. Why do you
>think Ryche stopped wearing the leather. Leather is out. it is 80's.
>and this is the 90's. change is healthy. and it is Queensryches ability
>to change that makes them great.
>
Notice that everything that you said above uses a fashion analogy. This is
exactly what I was saying before. Music has become like the fashion
industry and that's very sad. Fashion is when someone makes some shit
and someone else convinces a lot of people that it's cool to wear it. Music
is art and it is timeless. You may be able to listen to something and hear the
differences in recording techniques or the differences in the instruments used,
but it is still valid music and I see no reason why people need to stop making
that style of music just because the stupid masses have changed the course of
their herd again. There is no reason why a musician should feel the need to
fit into the idiotic niches that the foolish record companies have carved.
Unfortunately people seem to have a problem thinking for themselves and tend
to therefor buy whatever the crap that's fed to them is. Perhaps if
someone wanted
to follow their own vision today and write something that didn't fit in
they wouldn't
get signed to a recording contract, but that's not because their music is bad.
It's because the record companies say, "Well, this is very nice, but we're
currently
stearing the herd of idiots in this direction and why would we want to
distract them
in another direction when we got them all moving in the direction in which
we've
invested all this money?"
You want to know a secret? It's really not all about fashion. It's all about
cattle.
JMFOA.
Mike Z
In article <19970910044...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, jak...@aol.com
(Jakk21) wrote:
Cancer is a change, too. Is that healthy? It depends on the source of
the change.
Change for changes sake is not "healthy." In this case the
source of the change is a manufactured sterile product that is jammed down
everyones throat. That's not about art, that's not about music, that's
not healthy.
Mike Z
>Yes Colin it was me. I wrote that mindcrime is 80's cheese. I also wrote
>that it is briliant and one of my favorite albums of all time. I love
>operation Mindcrime. and i understand that it is intelligent, thought
>provoking, etc... but that doesnt change what it is. i had a friend over
>that other day that never heard it before. he called one of the songs
>80's speed metal. and truthfully, that is what it is. I love it anyway,
>but it is 80's metal. and we are almost in the 2000's. music has evolved.
Music has evolved?! What does that mean? Are you telling me that this
alternagrunge crap is an advance in *music*! Oh my God! Hello, McFly!
This is a retro movement. You know what that means? That means that
they have retrogressed. They have not evolved that have *devolved*!
All the shit that's being done now has been done before. There are no
innovative things being done today in the studio or songwriting wise
in the modern rock section of the world. Of course there are advances
being made outside of the bullshit upon which the cattle feed thank goodness.
LFulk33
>*You* said that it was 80's cheese. I'd like to know how you know that
>it's 80's cheese. What about it sticks out to you and screams 80's. Larry
>and
>Marshal, I really like to know what both of you guys think about this.
>
>Thanks!
>
>Yours,
>
>Mike
>
i'm sorry i can't give you a solid answer
but ... it's just very ... 80s to me
there is really nothing to argue or discuss here
i enjoy listening to HITNF so much because it's Here in the Now
i don't know why, it just FEELS right
and i love listening to OMC because it's such an amazing story
to me, it's very shakespearean, like something Shakespeare would have
wrote if he was alive in 1988.. and if shakespeare was the greatest writer
ever, than i think that is the greatest compliment i could give that album
however, when i listen to music, there are certain styles i may feel like
listening to.. maybe i feel like listening to one of my early 90s style
cds, then i'll put in Pearl Jam or Alice in Chains.. or. .Promised Land
maybe i'll want to hear some classic rock.. then i'll put in sabbath or
Pink Floyd
maybe i want to hear some current rock, then I'll listen to my Live cd's,
or Collective Soul.. or HITNF
maybe i want some late 80s, glam rock type of music.. then i'll put in Bon
Jovi or.. yes.. Empire (empire actually has meaning to it, but the MUSIC
fits in this category, to me)
and maybe i want to hear some early type of 80s metal.. then i think about
Iron Maiden.. or Warning or the EP
maybe i want some hard mid 80s metal.. then i listen to Metallica or Megadeth
maybe i want some mixture of the 2 metals.. then i listen to Ozzy or
Operation Mindcrime
otherwise, i'll listen to Rage for Order =)
it's just personal concept.. POV.. this is how i see it
this may not be how you see it..
so what? that's what makes horse racing
Jakk21
>Yeah, I really understand the fashion statement thing, but that still doesn't
>explain why you think that metal from the 80's was cheesy. It was what it
>was. Why do you classify it all as cheesy, or is there w/cheese and w/o
>cheese? Maybe there's metal with ketchup and tomato, too ;^)!
>
>BTW, you know that I'd never really blast you becasue it's because of you
>that I got to meet that cheesy 80's metal band Queensryche ;^)! I owe you
>and I know it.
>
>Yours,
>
>Mike>>>>>>>>>>>
Mike, Im not saying that Queensryche is a 80's cheese band. I consider
Ryche to be the best band of all time. But OM is 80's metal. and i use
the words 80's metal and 80's cheese interchangably. Whether it is amazing
like operation mindcrime or not. Just look at the style Queensryche had
back then. They had the long hair, screaming lyrics, and leather pants.
that is SOOOOOOOOo 80's.
and as far as the backstage pass thing goes. I was more than happy to
help out man. You seemed like a good enough guy from the first time I met
you. You dont owe me a thing. Besides, you gave me the pic. That was
really cool man.
Marshal
defau...@domain.com
synthuser wrote:
> TV is evil, it is is non-interactive, it is biased, its sole purpose
> is to get you to spend your money, it is the ULTIMATE CARNIVAL BARKER -
> come on in and see the three horned cow.
> LOL no thanks, there's a million other things I'd rather do:)
> --
> "where I stand is not so far from YOU
> a different opinion is just another point of view"
> Point of View - Parallels / FW
I don't think TV is evil... it just depends on how ppl choose
to use it. It provides an interesting forum... Anyhow, it can be
put in good use and bad use.
Amy
E-mail: Amy...@uclink4.berkeley.edu
Website: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Stage/2206/qryche.html
johan....@mailbox.swipnet.se
> ok, first of all, there are different types of metal.. you can't really
> group bands like Metallica, Megadeth etc with groups from the 80s like Iron
> Maiden, early Ryche, Ozzy Osbourne, mid Ryche, glam-metal, late 80's-early
> 90s Ryche
> it's just completely different.. it's much harder, less melody driven
I'll agree with your last sentence that it's harder and less melody driven, but...
> secondly, i do not consider Metallica metal anymore, but more likely hard rock
what Metallica is doing today, would definitely have been considered as metal back
in the 80's. It isn't today, because we have more extreme music. When Metallica
released "The Black Album" and the "enter sandman" single, it would have been
impossible to get that song on heavy rotation airplay around 1985-6, because it
would have been "too hard". I think we have just gotten used to harder music and
therefore we don't see the "new" Metallica as being metal. Megadeth is most certainly
still metal and would have been considered metal 10-15 years ago as well.
Type O Negative I think draws a lot of influences from Black Sabbath, but with more
finesse and with different instrumentations (not really, but they use the instruments
differently than your average metal group from late 70's early 80's).
> Pantera sucks and i do not acknowledge their existence
I'll agree with you that they suck, but it's still metal and it's very aggressive.
Like it or not !
ATB
johan - timescape
defau...@domain.com
Jason Kramer wrote:
> I'm in complete agreement with you. I don't think they will ever
> top Empire.
>
> When Empire came out on Sep 4, 1990, it completely blew me
> away like no album had ever done. The album just consumed me.
Well, no album will top Empire for you if you don't expect
any to. Empire's my fave too, but I prefer to give their new
albums a chance.
Mike Z
In article <19970910040...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, jak...@aol.com
(Jakk21) wrote:
>>when he says '80s cheese' i believe he just means that it's 80s metal, and
>>80s metal is 80s metal =)
>>i don't think he meant the lyrics, ideas or talent involved in writing
>it>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
>Thank you Larry, That is exactly what I meant. I think Operation
>Mindcrime was the best album made back then. But even though it is
>intelligent, thought provoking, innovative, etc... it is still 80's metal.
>And for the most part, 80's metal is "cheese". Hell, I like most 80's shit
>more than 90's shit.
What's the definition of cheese to you guys? To me the definition is something
that lacks substance or depth; very superficial. Is that what you guys would
define cheese as?
>Here is a great example. I had a friend at my house the other day that
>likes some of Ryches stuff. He has only heard Empire, promised land, and
>some of HITNF. he is in love with Empire... which led him to buy Promised
>land. He didnt really like it much, but admitted its qualities. From what
>he's heard, he really likes HITNF. So I decided to play some Mindcrime for
>him. I put on the needle lies. The first words out of his mouth were
>,"This is 80's speed metal" And as much as I love mindcrime and that
>particular song, I couldnt argue with him. That is what it is.
What?! I think that I've uncovered the source of our misunderstanding here.
I'm getting lost in the Long Island to the rest of the world translation :^)!
Would you guys mind using subtitles when you post ;^)!
>The whole
>album is just really good 80's metal. Now I love it, but dont try to say
>that it is timeless and if it was made today would have the same effect.
It would have the same effect on *me*. That's all that I was saying and that's
a fact. It's the type of album that I would still be very effected by
hearing for
the first time today. There's no doubt about it.
>IT WOULDNT....... It is an 80's album... that is the bottom line.
Yeah, I know... it's not fashionable. We've been through this already.
>I dont
>want to hear music made today that sounds like music that was made in the
>80's.
Why not? I'd really love to know. Honestly, please tell me why music that
was created as few as eight years ago is now invalid in your mind.
>To ME... and most of you, the album is timeless. that is because we
>love ryche and mindcrime.
It's because I love that music. It happens to be QR and the title of the
album happens to be Mindcrime, but if it was any other band or any
other album title and the music was that great then I would love it as
well. I don't like stuff just because it's QR. I think that you know that
if you've read any of my posts about the new album. There's a lot of things
that Ryche has written that I don't care for, but I love the large majority of
it.
>but to other people, it is 80's cheese with a
>lot more intelligence than the rest.
>
*You* said that it was 80's cheese. I'd like to know how you know that
it's 80's cheese. What about it sticks out to you and screams 80's. Larry and
Marshal, I really like to know what both of you guys think about this.
Thanks!
Yours,
Mike
--
johan....@mailbox.swipnet.se
> mir...@tco.com (Mike Z) writes:
> Music has evolved?! What does that mean? Are you telling me that this
> alternagrunge crap is an advance in *music*! Oh my God! Hello, McFly!
> This is a retro movement. You know what that means? That means that
> they have retrogressed. They have not evolved that have *devolved*!
> All the shit that's being done now has been done before. There are no
> innovative things being done today in the studio or songwriting wise
> in the modern rock section of the world. Of course there are advances
> being made outside of the bullshit upon which the cattle feed thank goodness.
I hate to disagree with you Mike :-*), but I have to !
There might not be much of a progression going on in the alternative
scene, but there are other styles of music that certainly have progressed
and made an impact on today's music. I'm mostly talking about electronical
music here, and the way that DJ's have been incorporated in the music-
making progress. There are several new styles of music that haven't been
done before, such as: "drum'n'bass", "ambient", "dub", "tip-hop", "acid-jazz",
etc... None of these are my favourite styles, but there is always something
good in each style (and yes I believe that) and if one is able to incorporate
some of these new elements in say hardrock/metal, maybe we would
see metal have a revival. This is what bands like Nine Inch Nail have been
doing for a while, but unfortunately (for them) the music they created became
too industrial and thus not mainstream enough to catch the attention of the large
crowd. Just a little food for thought...
ATB
johan - timescape
LFulk33
>> and no popular bands play
>> metal anymore.. that is why you can tell it's from the 80s
>
>Really ?? What about Metallica, Megadeth, Pantera, Type O Negative.
>What would you call those bands ?
>
>
>johan - timescape
>
>
>
ok, first of all, there are different types of metal.. you can't really
group bands like Metallica, Megadeth etc with groups from the 80s like Iron
Maiden, early Ryche, Ozzy Osbourne, mid Ryche, glam-metal, late 80's-early
90s Ryche
it's just completely different.. it's much harder, less melody driven
secondly, i do not consider Metallica metal anymore, but more likely hard rock
Megadeth is still KIND of metal, but they have definitely grown and
expanded with their new CD.. to call that just metal is incorrect
Pantera sucks and i do not acknowledge their existence
Type O Negative isn't metal either.. they used to be a cheap version of
metal, but then they found their niche.. they play goth-druid type of music
=) obviously, it's roots are metal, but it's obviously also not like the
bands i listed above
defau...@domain.com
Jakk21 wrote:
> Actually, it was chris on an interview that said that the music industry
> is very healthy because it is constantly in a state of change.
> Isnt it ironic that a bunch of people that love 80's type music are pissed
> off about change... but think about it this way. if it wasnt for change,
> there would have never been 80's music. there would have never been 70's
> music... etc. there has to be a change in music. it is inevitable. and
> it is healthy as can be.
> Marshal
Exactly, couldn't agree with you more. The change is kinda good,
overall I think. And the music industry is like survival of
the fittest. If bands have the will to keep on doing what
they're doing, they will survive... So that's why I'm not
too bugged by the Ryche's partial success (or you might call
it their non-success), if they truly want to continue with
their game plan, they will.
Jakk21
>>I think a big problem is that people think that we are reffering to
>>Queensryche as 80's cheese. NOTHING could be further from the truth. I
>>said that OM is 80's cheese. And it is. Now dont jump down my throat
>>about it. it is brilliant album, intelligent, gifted, innovative.
>>etc...... but it is still 80's metal and 80's metal is cheese.
>>
>I think that it's very obvious from this statement that we differ as to
>the definition of cheese.
>
>Yours,
>
>Mike>>>>>>>>>
Fine.. I am no longer using the words 80's and cheese in the same
sentense. Settled... but OM is 80's metal is it not?
marshal
LFulk33
and stop quoting bands to make a point
if you have something to say, then say it in your own words
defau...@domain.com
Mike Z wrote:
> Music has evolved?! What does that mean? Are you telling me that this
> alternagrunge crap is an advance in *music*! Oh my God! Hello, McFly!
> This is a retro movement. You know what that means? That means that
> they have retrogressed. They have not evolved that have *devolved*!
> All the shit that's being done now has been done before. There are no
> innovative things being done today in the studio or songwriting wise
> in the modern rock section of the world. Of course there are advances
> being made outside of the bullshit upon which the cattle feed thank goodness.
>
> Yours,
>
> Mike
Yeah so this is a retro movement. So what? Nothing is really original
anyway. All the progressive stuff ppl like is kinda retro too.
There's nothing wrong with going back to something you like.
LFulk33
>> It is like saying that wearing bell bottoms wasnt something done in the
>> 70's. When it was. And in 1985, even though a few people might have
>worn
>> bell bottoms, it was still classified as a 70's way of dressing. And if
>it
>> becomes very popular again, which it might be, then it will be known as a
>> 90's way of dressing also.
>
>THIS is a ridiculous comparison. The Fashion industry has always repeated
>itself throughout time. Some fashions never go out of style regardless of
>the current trend.
>
>Jason
i don't think it's that ridiculous
music repeats itself as well.. i think it's a definite trend in the 90s
that people are listening to alot more classic rock from the 70s
to me, there are basically 2 types of rock fans in the mainstream right now:
the type that listen to current mainstream rock
and the type that listen to classic 70s rock.. that being: Pink Floyd,
Sabbath, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Led Zeppelin.. those things
synthuser
defau...@domain.com wrote:
> I don't think TV is evil... it just depends on how ppl choose
> to use it. It provides an interesting forum... Anyhow, it can be
> put in good use and bad use.
>
I respect your opinions but definately don't agree...
Choose to use it? The average person (and this may not include
you I can't say) will spend at leat 3 hours a day (this is a
conservative estimate) sitting in front of this so called
"forum." If you disagree with the statistics than you
don't know much about the amount of time "joe average person"
will watch it. Let alone specific demographic groups. If you
watch it, keep track for one month and get back to me...
An interesting forum? How so? The word Forum as defined, usually
means "a public meeting place for discussion," "a public program
involving panel discussion and audience participation," there are
other similar definitions. TV is not a forum, unless you are in
the audience of the Jerry Springer show. LOL This NG is way more
of a legitimate forum than TV. On the contrary TV is totally un-forum
like. It is a one-way stream of images and words that has basically
one purpose -to provide advertisers the largest available audience
for their "products." Any delusions about its purpose besides that
though well intentioned is very naive. Why do you think there are
commercials?
How ppl choose to use it? Hmmmm since you don't say how you choose
to use it I'm not clear on what you mean. Is it a diversion after
a long day at work, a babysitter for the kids, a way to get the
family together, etc? What's the good uses you speak of...
The average half hour show is really about 22-23 minutes, the
other 7/8 minutes consists of advertising that is designed by
experts to manipulate you in the most subtle ways. If you don't
believe this than I commend them for a job well done. Do you
really give a shit that your bleach isn't a name brand?
Do the employees at McDonalds really look like the cute
kids in the commercial? How many teasers does it take to
get you to watch the news, and isn't this whole "teaser"
concept just a little whacked? How many love triangles gone
bad do you need to see? Get rich-quick schemes? Reruns of
reruns? Benny Hihn telling you God needs your money? The
Beastmaster movies like every other week. The "crossfire"
type shows that are just basically propaganda
shouting matches. MTV telling your kids what is cool
and what isn't? Etc., etc, etc. etc.
I have worked in TV and video and this idea that we can't
concentrate on something for more than 5 seconds is pretty
much being adopoted by the networks as an MO. (Thanks MTV)
I know there are exceptions (one being the Thomas Jefferson
guy on C-SPAN-way cool, PBS and others) but they are far and
few between. I could go on and on, but if you like it(TV)
than watch it.
If you need TV in your life for whatever reason than
thats your right, turn it on and let it entertain you,
just have the balls to cop to what it is and don't give
me some vague bullshit about its merits, or good
uses, cause for the most part it sucks and at best its just
mediocre. I wonder if you actually had to pay for each show
you watched how you would feel? What you would watch?
The bottom line -It's a way for advertisers to reach the
largest audience(potential customer) possible, thats it.
I've been there and even at the local level its about
money- you think the majors are not 100x worse?
No brain surgery. Take off the rose colored glasses.
Entertainment? At what fucking cost? If I want
reruns I'll que up like 5 QR cd's and hit the shuffle
button.
Sorry to rant but given the context of my original post,
I still say TV is Evil both in its method and its intent.
And until enuff start turning it off or saying hey cut the
crap- its just going to get worse, not better. Sign me
TV-less and fucking proud of it!
synthuser
Mike Z wrote:
> You know, the new Fates Warning album sounds like it could have been
> made it the 80's to me.
I agree, I just listened to Free's Fire and Water today and it could
have been released today as far as I am concerned. Good things that
touch people defy the fad syndrome, I know that is vague but to define
it more just gets to picky. The universal "good" as in quality, does
not seem to be affected by time as does the trendy bullshit that tries
to exploit the "time" that it came from. Mindcrime and Dark Side of the
Moon
are two examples of a list of many I can think of.
> It's timeless music to me, just as Mindcrime is.
Well said and I think that concept can carry over to movies and
other expressions of art as well :)
> There are certain sounds that are associated with different times.
> The 80's guitar sound is associated with precission and
> clarity whereas the 90's guitar sound is associated with sloppiness and
> muddiness.
I tend to agree. I loved the intensity and mastery of the so-called
guitar gods of the 80's, Hell my roommate was one ;) I mean I am so
sick of this 3 chord, don't look at me, live production, I don't
want to be famous, stupid haircut, hate everything shit that is
happening today in the "alternative scene."
I am sorry but what's there to be so pissed about anyway? Kurt blows
his brains out because he had everything he wanted and it sucked? Wow
life's rough - go figure. Boo Hoo
> Give me the 80's anytime. I'll wear those fucking "bellbottoms"
> until real music comes back into style.
Don't understand all this 80's bashing... I mean MTV acts like
its some big joke, talk about hypocrisy personified!
I am always amazed at how people can look back and dismiss a whole
era of music? Especially on the prog NG's. The majority of my cd's
are pre-90's and a lot of my purchases are stuff that is I guess
considered "cheesy" lol or old or whatever. I don't care. If I
had to pick between 80's musicianship or 90's angst, I'd take
the hammer-ons lol! I am listening to Blue Murder's Valley of the
Kings right this second, big hair, pirate clothes and all LOL!
synthuser
Mike Z wrote:
> Why is everyone so fucking homogenous? Why is everyone so vehemently
> defending their homogenousness? I don't care what you listen to, I just
> hope that you really check out your choices out there. What I'm basically > saying is that fashion pressure keeps people from experiencing the best art,
> IMO. Record companies are in this to make money, not to turn you on to good > music. Find the good music yourself.
>
> Yours,
>
> Mike
Well said! Well fucking said...
LFulk33
>Um, hello? Could someone tell me what ya'll are calling "cheese?" It
>sounds like most of the ones commenting here weren't even around in the
>late 80's...
just so you realize, one would have to be 7 years old to not have been
around in the late 80s
and one would have to be younger than 17 to have no remembrance of the
music of the late 80s
so who are you referring to? you keep talking like you're 50 years old or
something, and then you tell me that you're only like 23 or something
> I mean, please, O:M does *not* sound all that dated... please,
>clue me in someone, tell me a few of the bands *YOU* would call cheese,
>'cuz I don't think we're talking about the same thing here... and I really
>want to figure this out...
>Shaye
LFulk33
>
>Music has evolved?! What does that mean? Are you telling me that this
>alternagrunge crap is an advance in *music*! Oh my God! Hello, McFly!
>This is a retro movement. You know what that means? That means that
>they have retrogressed. They have not evolved that have *devolved*!
>All the shit that's being done now has been done before. There are no
>innovative things being done today in the studio or songwriting wise
>in the modern rock section of the world. Of course there are advances
>being made outside of the bullshit upon which the cattle feed thank goodness.
>
>Yours,
>
>Mike
i happen to like a lot of 90s stuff.. not ALL of it, but there are bands
that i definitely like
a lot of people on this newsgroup will cringe when i say this, especially
marshal, but i listen for me, not you guys
i like (in no particular order):
Queensryche, Pink Floyd, Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Live, Pearl Jam,
Iron Maiden, Metallica, Black Sabbath, Collective Soul, Alice in Chains,
Stone Temple Pilots, Type O Negative, Megadeth, Van Halen, Sammy Hagar
(solo), Tool, Nine Inch Nails, Queen, Bon Jovi... and i even like that
wierd guy Jamiroquoi or whatever
there is nothing wrong with any particular genre, only the shitty bands
that try to mold themselves to it
Shaye69
>>
>>Okay, I'm *not* jumping down anyone's throat, but, as I thought, you're
>>using that term differently than I would... I wouldn't say O:M sounds much
>>like a lot that was out in '88, tho...
>>"Why must people categorize, live the propaganda lies?"
>>(Wrathchild America)
>
>
>and stop quoting bands to make a point
>if you have something to say, then say it in your own words
>
>
>
>- Larry
>
>
point... it just popped into my head and it fit. What's wrong with
borrowing it (credited)... Brad Divens is much more articulate than I could
ever hope to be, I think... touchy, touchy... ;-)
Shaye
LFulk33
>>>like a lot that was out in '88, tho...
>>>"Why must people categorize, live the propaganda lies?"
>>>(Wrathchild America)
>>
>>
>>and stop quoting bands to make a point
>>if you have something to say, then say it in your own words
>>
>>
>>
>>- Larry
>>
>>
>Whoa! I think that's the first time I quoted a band here to make a
>point... it just popped into my head and it fit. What's wrong with
>borrowing it (credited)... Brad Divens is much more articulate than I could
>ever hope to be, I think... touchy, touchy... ;-)
>Shaye
>
>
i didn't mean you in particular, i meant everybody
and also, why must so many people send me personal email,as well as a
public post? i can understand wanting to keep something in email, but why
must you email me AND post it? it happens all the time and it's annoying..
because then i don't know if i should respond via email, or go to the NG
and respond here
if it's because you think i might pass over it, then don't worry.. i read
every post on here
LFulk33
>
>> ok, first of all, there are different types of metal.. you can't really
>> group bands like Metallica, Megadeth etc with groups from the 80s like
>Iron
>> Maiden, early Ryche, Ozzy Osbourne, mid Ryche, glam-metal, late 80's-early
>> 90s Ryche
>> it's just completely different.. it's much harder, less melody driven
>
>but...
>
>rock
>
>back
>in the 80's. It isn't today, because we have more extreme music. When
>Metallica
>released "The Black Album" and the "enter sandman" single, it would have been
>impossible to get that song on heavy rotation airplay around 1985-6, because
>it
>would have been "too hard". I think we have just gotten used to harder music
>and
>therefore we don't see the "new" Metallica as being metal.
If songs like "Master of Puppets" and "ride the lightning" are metal, then
what is "Hero of the Day" and "bleeding me"? the only song that sounds like
metal on Load to me is King Nothing.. and it happens to be my favorite song
on the album
>Megadeth is most
>certainly
>still metal and would have been considered metal 10-15 years ago as well.
i do not agree
maybe because, i dont have much respect for that type of metal, with the
exception of Metallica
it is perhaps my favorite genre, but that's because i find it the most
entertaining.. i also think it is the least talented one
i don't think very many metal bands had any talent at all, except for the
likes of Metallica and Ozzy
i think the new Megadeth album is so good that i can't see it being
labeled as metal.. at least not the same as 80s metal.. i don't think
"Trust" is reminiscent of anything that Megadeth or even Metallica ever did
in the 80s
>Type O Negative I think draws a lot of influences from Black Sabbath, but
>with more
>finesse and with different instrumentations (not really, but they use the
>instruments
>differently than your average metal group from late 70's early 80's).
thus, they are not really metal, like i said
>
>> Pantera sucks and i do not acknowledge their existence
>
>I'll agree with you that they suck, but it's still metal and it's very
>aggressive.
>Like it or not !
of course there is still metal.. but my point was that it isn't any good
therefore the fact that Pantera sucks just backs up my opinion
they made one good song (Cemetary gates) and the rest are totally and
absolutely horrible.. and that's my point
>
>
>ATB
>
>johan - timescape
Staple
In article <34172ECE...@domain.com>, defau...@domain.com writes:
>
>synthuser wrote:
>
>> TV is evil, it is is non-interactive, it is biased, its sole purpose
>> is to get you to spend your money, it is the ULTIMATE CARNIVAL BARKER -
>> come on in and see the three horned cow.
>> LOL no thanks, there's a million other things I'd rather do:)
>> "where I stand is not so far from YOU
>> a different opinion is just another point of view"
>> Point of View - Parallels / FW
>
>to use it. It provides an interesting forum... Anyhow, it can be
>put in good use and bad use.
yes, TV IS evil. Well, except maybe for PBS. But other than that its all
EVIL! EEEVVVIIILLL!!! ...erm...sorry.
-Staple
-http://www.student.montana.edu/~scm
\|||/
@ @
================oooO==(_)==Oooo==================
Mike Z
LFulk33
>
>Why not? If you like that kind of music you like it and that's it! If
>someone
>gave you a song that was written in a "70's" style does that mean that you
>won't like it? How would you know that it was written today and not actually
>written back then? What's so bad about stuff sounding like that? Like I
>said
>before, I listen to Bach. That's a few hundred years of "outdatedness."
>Should
>people today not listen to that music? Should symphonies of today not play
>that
>music? Should writers today not write using the forms that Bach did? Look
>at
>how "outdated" they are!
it's really not right to compare composers like Bach and Mozart and
Beethoven.. they're considered the greatest musicians to ever live.. so
obviously their music will never stop being copied
think of it this way:
Art.
In the history of art, there have been constant movements.. yet the
artists must change with these movements or disappear.. the only thing was,
the movements usually lasted at least as long as the artists lifetime.. but
think of this:
Michelangelo.. one of the greatest artists of all time.. he lived during
the high renaissance, and was one of the defining artists of that time
yet, towards the end of his career art moved to a style known as
Mannerism.. Michelangelo did not continue to produce Rennaissance style
art.. he progressed to make Mannerist paintings and sculptures
on the same note, you don't see any modern artists painting things like
Leonardo (renaissance), Manet (impressionism), or even Picasso (who had
MANY different styles as his life progressed, but most famous for cubism)..
nobody would do that stuff anymore because it's been done.. OBVIOUSLY
Picasso, Leonardo, Manet, Michelangelo, Van Gogh and others are the
greatest artists this world has known, but nobody is going to do their
styles now.. they've been done!
CD Rocken
<<They had the long hair, screaming lyrics, and leather pants. >>
Not sure about the "screaming" lyrics, but I believe the long hair and
leather pants followed right on through into Empire.... :) In fact, some
of the long hair still remains... Ed and Mike. And then there's Chris, who
doesn't seem quite like he knows just what he wants to do, yet. Scott and
Geoff are much more decisive.
Now that I've done my silly-groupie-unlyrically-inspired post for the
night, I'll be going......... LOL
Mike Z
In article <34172D65...@domain.com>, defau...@domain.com wrote:
>Mike Z wrote:
>
>> Music has evolved?! What does that mean? Are you telling me that this
>> alternagrunge crap is an advance in *music*! Oh my God! Hello, McFly!
>> This is a retro movement. You know what that means? That means that
>> they have retrogressed. They have not evolved that have *devolved*!
>> All the shit that's being done now has been done before. There are no
>> innovative things being done today in the studio or songwriting wise
>> in the modern rock section of the world. Of course there are advances
>> being made outside of the bullshit upon which the cattle feed thank goodness.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Mike
>
>Yeah so this is a retro movement. So what? Nothing is really original
>anyway.
Oh, no? *Nothing* original, huh? I can tell you a bunch of things that
have occured over the last few hundred years that are *very* original.
>All the progressive stuff ppl like is kinda retro too.
I wouldn't say that it's retro at all. I think that those guys (Fates, Shadow
Gallery, etc.) are very forward thinking. I think that their use of the studio
is very forward thinking as well. Todays modern rock boys are looking to
emulate a sound that was created in the studio years ago. They are also looking
to emulate guitar sounds that had become obsolete years ago. I don't think that
the DT boys or the stuff on the new Fates album sounds like they were trying to
go back and get the sounds of any of the old progressive rock icons. It sounds
very up to date. These guys are not afraid to use the technology that's
out there
for their use. They are also writing in interesting way. Look at A
Pleasant Shade
of Gray. These guys don't sound like ELP or Genesis or Rush or something.
They sound like themselves.
>There's nothing wrong with going back to something you like.
>
Yeah, that's true. There certainly isn't anything wrong with going
back to something you like. I think that there's also nothing wrong
with never leaving something that you like, too.
Mike Z
In article <873934392.588643@mn8>, johan....@mailbox.swipnet.se wrote:
>> mir...@tco.com (Mike Z) writes:
>
>> Music has evolved?! What does that mean? Are you telling me that this
>> alternagrunge crap is an advance in *music*! Oh my God! Hello, McFly!
>> This is a retro movement. You know what that means? That means that
>> they have retrogressed. They have not evolved that have *devolved*!
>> All the shit that's being done now has been done before. There are no
>> innovative things being done today in the studio or songwriting wise
>> in the modern rock section of the world. Of course there are advances
>> being made outside of the bullshit upon which the cattle feed thank
goodness.
>
>I hate to disagree with you Mike :-*), but I have to !
Get outta here, man :^)! Leave me alone, I'm on a roll! WEEEEEE.....
>There might not be much of a progression going on in the alternative
>scene, but there are other styles of music that certainly have progressed
>and made an impact on today's music. I'm mostly talking about electronical
>music here, and the way that DJ's have been incorporated in the music-
>making progress. There are several new styles of music that haven't been
>done before, such as: "drum'n'bass", "ambient", "dub", "tip-hop", "acid-jazz",
>etc... None of these are my favourite styles, but there is always something
>good in each style (and yes I believe that) and if one is able to incorporate
>some of these new elements in say hardrock/metal, maybe we would
>see metal have a revival. This is what bands like Nine Inch Nail have been
>doing for a while, but unfortunately (for them) the music they created became
>too industrial and thus not mainstream enough to catch the attention of
the large
>crowd. Just a little food for thought...
>
Oh, I think that you missed my point. I don't think that we have to disagree
after all. You said in your first line that there might not be "much of a
progression"
going on in the alternative scene. That's all that I was talking about was the
alternative scene. You'll notice that in my couple of lines I say that
there is nothing
going on in the studio or writing wise with the *modern rock* scene. I
mean that
those guys in modern rock (used pretty much interchangeably over here with
alternative and grunge) aren't producing anything new. I did say in the
sentence
after that that I did think that there was innovation going on outside the
"bullshit on
which the cattle feed" (grunge, modern rock, alternative. All really
synonomous).
The bullshit on which the cattle feed is the stuff that's rammed down
everyone's
throat until they buy it like alternative. I do think, as you do, that
there are many
area's in the music world in which there are great advances going on. Now, BTW,
I don't think that music has to advance to be good, I was just saying to
Marshal that
I didn't agree with him that things necessarily move forward. Sometimes
they move
side to side, or in the case of alternative, backwards.
Mike Z
In article <19970911000...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
lfu...@aol.com (LFulk33) wrote:
>>
>>Why not? If you like that kind of music you like it and that's it! If
>>someone
>>gave you a song that was written in a "70's" style does that mean that you
>>won't like it? How would you know that it was written today and not actually
>>written back then? What's so bad about stuff sounding like that? Like I
>>said
>>before, I listen to Bach. That's a few hundred years of "outdatedness."
>>Should
>>people today not listen to that music? Should symphonies of today not play
>>that
>>music? Should writers today not write using the forms that Bach did? Look
>>at
>>how "outdated" they are!
>
>it's really not right to compare composers like Bach and Mozart and
>Beethoven.. they're considered the greatest musicians to ever live.. so
>obviously their music will never stop being copied.
Really? I don't think that Black Sabbath will ever stop being copied either
(at least not in our lifetimes). I don't think that there's anything wrong with
bringing up the big boys. Don't you think that there are some musical axioms
that can be observed by looking back at music history? I think that there is.
I think that you might agree since you go on below to pull out the heavies of
the art world to try to make your point.
>think of it this way:
>Art.
>In the history of art, there have been constant movements.. yet the
>artists must change with these movements or disappear.. the only thing was,
>the movements usually lasted at least as long as the artists lifetime..
Yeah, that's something that I've been meaning to bring up. What the hell is
that? How come styles could last for a hundred years back then and now we
have people yelling that it's old and cheesy after a mere decade? It's silly.
There is more to be said in any one style than can be said in a decade.
>but
>think of this:
>Michelangelo.. one of the greatest artists of all time.. he lived during
>the high renaissance, and was one of the defining artists of that time
>yet, towards the end of his career art moved to a style known as
>Mannerism.. Michelangelo did not continue to produce Rennaissance style
>art.. he progressed to make Mannerist paintings and sculptures
>styles now.. they've been done!
>
First of all that's not true at all. You make it sound as though there comes
a time when the painters of the day would just throw up their hands and say,
"Oh, damn! Impressionism is taking over! I'd better go and jump on that
bandwagon now. Nobody's going to buy my stuff anymore!" There were
some styles that became more "fashionable" (there's that word again). Some
of the big collectors of the day (similar to the A&R people in record companies
today) would choose to back a certain kind of art and so it became more popular
as they got more exposure. There were still painters painting in all kinds of
other styles at the same time. The whole painting community the world over
didn't just latch on to someone elses vision and try to create things in a
style
similar to what was popular at the time. Even today there are painters painting
in *all* the styles that you mentioned above. Nothing is passe. Any where
that an artists feels that they want to go to express themselves is fine.
If it goes
against the grain of what's popular than they are risking being successful, not
expressive. In fact it's the people that go against the grain that are
the real innovators,
the real geniuses. Look at Picasso. If he was following everyone else
instead of
leading would there be cubism? No.
Mike Z
In article <19970911012...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
lfu...@aol.com (LFulk33) wrote:
It seems that the 80's has grown to have a negative connotation with the
younger guys like yourself, Larry. That's too bad, there's some good
shit out there. There's some shitty shit, too (like Twisted Sister), but
the good shit's really good.
>of course there is still metal.. but my point was that it isn't any good
>therefore the fact that Pantera sucks just backs up my opinion
>they made one good song (Cemetary gates) and the rest are totally and
>absolutely horrible.. and that's my point
>
I thought you liked Pantera. Didn't you at one point? I do agree with
you though, they're horrible.
LADIEINBLK
In article <19970910230...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
lfu...@aol.com (LFulk33) writes:
> i think it's a definite trend in the 90s
>that people are listening to alot more classic rock from the 70s
>to me, there are basically 2 types of rock fans in the mainstream right now:
>the type that listen to current mainstream rock
>and the type that listen to classic 70s rock.. that being: Pink Floyd,
>Sabbath, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Led Zeppelin.. those things
I can only speak from where I hear - and here in L.A. the reason
for the listener's tuning an ear back to the 70's "Classic Rock"
genre is due to the Program Director at the one and only harder
edged - not metal but harder edged - rock station, changing it's
format into what we already had combining the two genre's
into a classic rock/new rock station.
They claim to play your favorites from "the 70's, 80's and 90's but .....
all I hear is 70's & 90's and no harder edged bands - ever.
That includes the Pearl Jam's, the Prodigy's and anything labeled
metal.
I'll take Mark Goodman on the Pop Rock station anyday -
and if I hear one more Fleetwood Mac song, I'm gonna scream!
(don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with Fleetwood Mac but the
station went into overkill as soon as the eMpTVy taping aired).
I bless the person who invented the car tape deck and/or cd player!
"Have you ever been lonely, afraid to speak your mind?
Are you ever reminded to trust THE VOICE INSIDE?"
Peace, Robin
So. Cal Empire of Global Minds
http://members.aol.com/ladieinblk/index.html
Shaye69
I said it *sounds* like no one was around... I didn't mean it literally,
just that it seems we were in 2 different, parallel universes maybe :-)...
that's all.
Shaye
Mike Z
In article <19970911001...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
lfu...@aol.com (LFulk33) wrote:
>>
>>Music has evolved?! What does that mean? Are you telling me that this
>>alternagrunge crap is an advance in *music*! Oh my God! Hello, McFly!
>>This is a retro movement. You know what that means? That means that
>>they have retrogressed. They have not evolved that have *devolved*!
>>All the shit that's being done now has been done before. There are no
>>innovative things being done today in the studio or songwriting wise
>>in the modern rock section of the world. Of course there are advances
>>being made outside of the bullshit upon which the cattle feed thank goodness.
>>
>>Yours,
>>
>>Mike
>
>i happen to like a lot of 90s stuff.. not ALL of it, but there are bands
>that i definitely like
>a lot of people on this newsgroup will cringe when i say this, especially
>marshal, but i listen for me, not you guys
>i like (in no particular order):
>Queensryche, Pink Floyd, Dream Theater, Fates Warning, Live, Pearl Jam,
>Iron Maiden, Metallica, Black Sabbath, Collective Soul, Alice in Chains,
>Stone Temple Pilots, Type O Negative, Megadeth, Van Halen, Sammy Hagar
>(solo), Tool, Nine Inch Nails, Queen, Bon Jovi... and i even like that
>wierd guy Jamiroquoi or whatever
>there is nothing wrong with any particular genre, only the shitty bands
>that try to mold themselves to it
>
I agree esentially. I don't think that there's anything wrong with any
particular
genre inherently, but I do think that record companies latch onto a
certain type of
music and force it down the throats of the vulnerable largest record
buying market.
I think that they've chosen to ram grunge down everyone's throats now and that
they are beginning to lose lots of money on that now, so they are looking for
something else that is very sellable. Once they find it God help us all!
They'll
be another seven years of groaning under the weight of the "new thing" that will
probably be as horrible as the "old thing." Anyway what I'm really trying
to say
here (and have said) is that people should think for themselves and not
just listen
to the things that are on the radio. They should listen to different
genres of music,
support different genres at concerts and turn your friends onto the stuff
that you
find. Why is everyone so fucking homogenous? Why is everyone so vehemently
defending their homogenousness? I don't care what you listen to, I just
hope that
you really check out your choices out there. What I'm basically saying is that
fashion pressure keeps people from experiencing the best art, IMO. Record
companies
are in this to make money, not to turn you on to good music. Find the
good music
yourself.
Yours,