Who killed Mary?????????????????????????????????
Numb
Okay, me and some friends have an on going debate that I thought I would get all of you involved in.
WHO KILLED MARY?
Dr. X.
Nikki.
Suicide?
Thats it. What's your opinion?
--
€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€
I just want something I can never have, That's what I get.
€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€
White Rat
: Hello everyone,
: Okay, me and some friends have an on going debate that I thought I would get all of you involved in.
: WHO KILLED MARY?
: Dr. X.
: Nikki.
: Suicide?
: Thats it. What's your opinion?
Nikki did it when he was going through withdrawal, thus doesn't even
remember the act itself. This is Queensryche here, no happy ending like
they always promised. This theory fits well with the message of the album
and also lends more meaning and introspection to 'Eyes of a Stranger'.
As a matter of fact I pinpoint the death to be during 'The Needle Lies'.
--
Kevin S. Grant
The Zaygierian Legend \|---
kgra...@solix.fiu.edu
Jeff Archer
Numb <da...@inlink.com> wrote:
>Hello everyone,
> Okay, me and some friends have an on going debate that I thought I would get all of you involved in.
>
> WHO KILLED MARY?
> Dr. X.
> Nikki.
> Suicide?
>
>Thats it. What's your opinion?
This question has come up a dozen times or so in Screaming in Digital, and will
undoubtedly recur with every new fan.
The official word from someone who should know (read: Geoff Tate) is that it's
suicide. The video backs this up, as do the lyrics of "Empty Room". There is
a reference to a "chalk outline upon the wall", which would indicate a hanging
death. It's really, really tough to murder someone by hanging ("Hold still,
your tie is crooked..."), so suicide is a safe bet. For added flavor, Nikki
gets framed for the killing, ("Criminal mind found at the scene of the crime"),
and while he denies the killing, that's irrelevant given his drug-induced
state; he probably wouldn't remember. (Maybe that's the meaning of "I remember
now..."?)
--
It's spelled "Raymondluxuryyacht" but it's pronounced "throatwarblermangrove."
Felix . Garcia
Wolverine
> In article <danny-18099...@danny.inlink.com>,
> Numb <da...@inlink.com> wrote:
>>Hello everyone,
>> Okay, me and some friends have an on going debate that I thought I would get all of you involved in.
>>
>> WHO KILLED MARY?
>> Dr. X.
>> Nikki.
>> Suicide?
> ^^^^^^^^
>>
>>Thats it. What's your opinion?
>
> This question has come up a dozen times or so in Screaming in Digital, and will
> undoubtedly recur with every new fan.
>
> The official word from someone who should know (read: Geoff Tate) is that it's
> suicide. The video backs this up, as do the lyrics of "Empty Room". There is
> a reference to a "chalk outline upon the wall", which would indicate a hanging
> death.
wouldn't have been the one to trace the outline around the dead body of Mary.
It's really, really tough to murder someone by hanging ("Hold still,
> your tie is crooked..."), so suicide is a safe bet. For added flavor, Nikki
> gets framed for the killing, ("Criminal mind found at the scene of the crime"),
> and while he denies the killing, that's irrelevant given his drug-induced
> state; he probably wouldn't remember. (Maybe that's the meaning of "I remember
> now..."?)
I think that the meaning of I remeber now is that he only remembers what is
going onin the present because the whole mindcrime was a very taxing situation
on a very unstable mental state.
Gus :)
Sinnergrl
Has anyone else given any consideration to the notion that, Nikki and
Mary may not even be
people? Maybe they're metaphors, the struggle between good and evil,
the currant path of our
society, nothing is sacred. With the loss of hope, evil prevails....
Maybe, just maybe Mary and Nikki are one and the same. The struggle
within ourselves, between
good and evil. As "Mary" discovers that goodness can't win, she allows
"Nikki", the bad, take
over. In a sense...suicide.
Maybe Mary is the earth, Nikki it's ("innocent") inhabitants. While she
gives openly, "he"
destroys her in the name of progress. Bigger, better, if it doesn't
move...kill it, all to create a "New
Society." In a sense...murder.
Just a thought = )
Sareth III
basic level, and then yet, it could symbolize something quite different.
I guess I wouldn't know (even after doing that whole _PL_ bit).
I have finished a commentary on _Mindcrime_, but I have decided to hold it
back since no one seemed to appreciate the previous ones. (I got lots of
negative responses). I won't waste bandwidth if no one's interested.
Sareth
====================================================
The Most Glorious Sareth, the Imperator of all Imagination and Fantasy
(Alter ego: Michael Huang)
====================================================
"Here I stand at the crossroads' edge
Afraid to reach out for eternity
But one glance when I look down . . .
I see someone else not me."
- Queensryche
Mystic Dragon
>Hello everyone,
> Okay, me and some friends have an on going debate that I thought I would get all of you involved in.
> WHO KILLED MARY?
> Dr. X.
> Nikki.
> Suicide?
Dr. X did. It says in Eyes of a Stranger on the 7th line, 'Your
rosary wrapped around your throat.' And at the end of Video:
Mindcrime, Dr. X is shown going into the church wrapping the rosary
tight in his hands, as if he was going to choke someone. Argh .. Just
see Video: Mindcrime! Too hard to explain it.
Seppo Antero Tolonen
: Okay, me and some friends have an on going debate that I thought
: I would get all of you involved in.
: WHO KILLED MARY?
: Dr. X.
: Nikki.
: Suicide?
: Thats it. What's your opinion?
I think if Mary killed herself, there would be a 'remark' for that, but I
couldn't find one on the lyrics...
On the other hand, I'm sure it wasn't Nikki, because for example in the
Suite Sister Mary, it says:
(Mary): The only ease I ever known, I close my eyes, you shoot!
(Nikki): No, Mary listen, we've gotta pull our strength etc...
So Mary offers to be a sacrifice for the good of Nikki, but he refuses.
And then
(Nikki): There's only one thing left to see, will it be _him_ (Dr. X) or me?
There's one more candle left to light.
So my guess is, that while Nikki goes to see the Dr. X, he kills Mary/has her
killed in the meantime.
Btw. does everybody share my view that the candles, which Nikki tells of
symbolize the murders he has done/victims he has killed. This of course would
mean that originally Nikki goes to kill Dr. X, not just to talk with him...
Ps. Sorry about the possible mistakes in the lyrics, I didn't have them with
me where I was writing...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/Seppo
Santa's Little Helper...
(Currently on vacation)
Paul Ready
{Thus beating me to the punch, belated congrats for thinking of it first}
Seppo Antero Tolonen <sea...@utu.fi> wrote:
The debate that always rages on....
First my answer: Suicide. Number of reasons, most have been covered
already. But that's the sort of thing left to each listener to intrepret.
>I think if Mary killed herself, there would be a 'remark' for that, but I
>couldn't find one on the lyrics...
As Geoff said when I said when I saw them on the Building Empires tour,
"...some of us need to read our lyric sheets more carefully"
The implication that Mary killed herself, beyond the usual chalk outline
and rosary lines are in Electric Requium, Breaking the Silence, I Don't
Believe in Love, and My Empty Room, and possibly Eyes of a stranger.
Every one of those songs wasn't just about a lost love, but a love
that has left him. He blames Mary for leaving him to face the world
that she couldn't alone. Of course at this point Nikki is also insane....
Even in death you still look sad...don't leave me...
Breaking the silence with my cries, you never answer me
She said she'd meet me, on the other side, but I knew right then
I'd never find her there
She must have lied, because she never said goodbye
All alone now, except for the memories
>On the other hand, I'm sure it wasn't Nikki, because for example in the
>Suite Sister Mary, it says:
>(Mary): The only ease I ever known, I close my eyes, you shoot!
>(Nikki): No, Mary listen, we've gotta pull our strength etc...
>So Mary offers to be a sacrifice for the good of Nikki, but he refuses.
Shoot has another meaning here, or perhaps a double meaning.
Mary:
I've no more want of any faith, bind my arm and feed my mind.
The only peace I've ever known, I'll close my eyes, you shoot!
This line is about shooting up, as in Heroin. Operation: Mindcrime,
The Mission, and The Needle Lies all contain lines to support this
(among others? That's all I can think of for sure now).
It might also refer to the gun that Nikki killed Father William with
(if he really did that deed.... though I think he did). But I do agree
that at this point, at least, that the lyrics clearly show that Nikki
didn't intend to kill Mary, that she was alive when he left her, and
that he went off to confront Dr X.
However, the final line Mary has:
Don't turn your back on my discgrace, the blood of Christ can't heal
my wounds... so deep, the sins of man are all I taste, I can't spit
the memory from my mind.
shows that Mary does not want to go on living, that she wants Nikki to
kill her. Some might say that it is not really relevant whether she
killed herself or X got to her first.
Needle Lies shows that Dr X won the confrontation and sent Nikki running
away trying to escape the Needle and X. After that is Electric Requium
where Nikki returns to find Mary dead. It could be argued that Nikki
killed her somewhere during Needle Lies, that the code phrase was given
and Nikki was helpless to resist until he had done the deed, though
why would Dr X allow the confrontation in the first place? In this case
it could be said that Nikki didn't really kill Mary, that X did using
him as a weapon. Then Nikki takes off running through the streets
screaming Mary's name, talking to himself about not believing in love
and how she lied to him, eventually ending up back at the scene of the
crime, collapsed and babbling where the police found him. This sequence
takes Nikki off the list, from what I can see. And Dr X would have had to
be pretty fast to get to her directly.
>Btw. does everybody share my view that the candles, which Nikki tells of
>symbolize the murders he has done/victims he has killed. This of course would
>mean that originally Nikki goes to kill Dr. X, not just to talk with him...
I would definately agree with that statement. "I look around, the room
is filled with candles, each one a story but they end the same" sounds like
a series of victims. And Dr X was supposed to be the final one. Too bad
for Nikki he wasn't a sniper....
>Ps. Sorry about the possible mistakes in the lyrics, I didn't have them with
> me where I was writing...
Same...
Sharon Barrett
Sinnergrl <sinn...@aol.com> wrote:
>Nikki\Mary
>
>people? Maybe they're metaphors, the struggle between good and evil,
>the currant path of our
>society, nothing is sacred. With the loss of hope, evil prevails....
>
>Maybe, just maybe Mary and Nikki are one and the same. The struggle
>within ourselves, between
>good and evil. As "Mary" discovers that goodness can't win, she allows
>"Nikki", the bad, take
I would say Dr. X is the evil person and Nikki is the one who
tries to choose between good and evil. Up until X tells Nikki to kill
Mary, he lives knowing he is part evil and part good. Mary discovers
goodness can't win, kills herself, and Nikki is left with only evil. He
tries to shake it off, but it is all he has. In the end since he has lost
that part of him, he doesn't recognize himself anymore (eyes of a stranger).
>Maybe Mary is the earth, Nikki it's ("innocent") inhabitants. While she
>gives openly, "he"
>destroys her in the name of progress. Bigger, better, if it doesn't
>move...kill it, all to create a "New
Again, this wouldn't be Nikki but Dr. X. Nikki tried to save
Mary, remember? He didn't want to destroy her in the name of progress.
And X wanted to destroy her for security reasons.
-Sharon
Wolverine
> da...@inlink.com (Numb) wrote:
>
>>Hello everyone,
>> Okay, me and some friends have an on going debate that I thought I would get all of you involved in.
>
>> WHO KILLED MARY?
>> Dr. X.
>> Nikki.
>> Suicide?
>
> rosary wrapped around your throat.' And at the end of Video:
> Mindcrime, Dr. X is shown going into the church wrapping the rosary
> tight in his hands, as if he was going to choke someone. Argh .. Just
> see Video: Mindcrime! Too hard to explain it.
>
only one who believes this theory.
Gus :)
Wolverine
> It could have been Father William. He probably wasn't too happy with his
> main squeeze spending time with an urchin like Nikki. In the video
> mindcrime outro it shows Father William catching the two young lovebirds
> on the altar steps and he has a rosary in his hands at the time . Maybe
> in a fit of rage he kills mary and nikki is too strung out to stop him,
> then traces mary's outline before (or after) offing the priest. Food for
> thought or maybe I'm an idiot
This is a new theory. But Nikki has already killed Father William. Somewhere i
Suite Sister Mary Nikki say "your priest is cold and dead other will be next"
So father william is already dead. Also back to the suicide how could someone
strangle themselves with rosary beads?
Gus :)
Chyloe
Barrett) writes:
> Again, this wouldn't be Nikki but Dr. X. Nikki tried to save
>Mary, remember? He didn't want to destroy her in the name of progress.
>And X wanted to destroy her for security reasons.
>
>
Didn't "Nikki" use "Mary" like everyone else? The whole thing seems to
center around what Nikki wants; drugs, power, control, " Don't leave
me" "Who will clean...cook.." "wait for what you gave..."...etc....making
him as evil as the rest
DSSJMS
Dave Croll
> (Mary): The only ease I ever known, I close my eyes, you shoot!
> (Nikki): No, Mary listen, we've gotta pull our strength etc...
>
> So Mary offers to be a sacrifice for the good of Nikki, but he refuses.
I think she was talking about shooting up (heroine), not shooting her.
The "only peace she's ever known" is being high. I say this because she
says "bind my arm and feed my mind," as in mainlining.
> (Nikki): There's only one thing left to see, will it be _him_ (Dr. X) or me?
> There's one more candle left to light.
>
> So my guess is, that while Nikki goes to see the Dr. X, he kills Mary/has her
> killed in the meantime.
It does sound like he plans to go finish off Dr. X, or that Dr. X will
get him for trying to get out of O:M when he says "will it be him or me?"
> Btw. does everybody share my view that the candles, which Nikki tells of
> symbolize the murders he has done/victims he has killed. This of course would
> mean that originally Nikki goes to kill Dr. X, not just to talk with him...
Yes, I agree...candle = victim
Dave C
Numb
Hi,
Food for thought yes... I think (don't quote me on this:)), Father William is dead before Mary.
Dan
--
€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€
It's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is permission.
€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€€
Jeff Archer
>> The official word from someone who should know (read: Geoff Tate) is that it's
>> suicide. The video backs this up, as do the lyrics of "Empty Room". There is
>> a reference to a "chalk outline upon the wall", which would indicate a hanging
>> death.
In article <1995Sep19...@spcvxb.spc.edu>,
Wolverine <8dak...@spcvxb.spc.edu> wrote:
>But the other half of the verse is "I remeber tracing it." So since Nikki
>wouldn't have been the one to trace the outline around the dead body of Mary.
True; this is probably where the center of the confusion is, since it puts him
at the scene of the crime the night she was killed, but after the police had
investigated the scene. My guess is he had no where else to go, and stayed in
the apartment they'd shared after her suicide. The police came back later,
looking for anyone they could to pin the murder on, and how convenient, they
find this gun-toting lunatic on heroin. (I've always held that the real
mind crime was committed by the police/gov't in framing Nikki for the murder,
while the real criminal organization run by Dr. X seemed to go unscathed.)
>I think that the meaning of I remeber now is that he only remembers what is
>going onin the present because the whole mindcrime was a very taxing situation
>on a very unstable mental state.
I mostly agree. He probably didn't remember all the people he killed until
they'd had him on sedatives for a while.
--
"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." -- Abbie Hoffman
Jeff Archer
>I think if Mary killed herself, there would be a 'remark' for that, but I
>couldn't find one on the lyrics...
Oh, c'mon, it's a murder mystery, do you really want them to -tell- you who
did it? :-D
>On the other hand, I'm sure it wasn't Nikki, because for example in the
>Suite Sister Mary, it says:
>
>(Mary): The only ease I ever known, I close my eyes, you shoot!
I've always taken this as, she wants him to inject her with some heroin so
they can have some wild sex, like they usually did before we went off to kill
someone. (BTW, I think the lyrics are "The only peace...", but "ease" is
close enough.) Ultimately, I think Mary was a worse addict than Nikki was.
>So Mary offers to be a sacrifice for the good of Nikki, but he refuses.
>
>And then
>
>(Nikki): There's only one thing left to see, will it be _him_ (Dr. X) or me?
> There's one more candle left to light.
I thought this was "chapter left to write", but again, it fits. Maybe you
should be writing songs for Q'ryche :-)
>Btw. does everybody share my view that the candles, which Nikki tells of
>symbolize the murders he has done/victims he has killed. This of course would
>mean that originally Nikki goes to kill Dr. X, not just to talk with him...
Nikki was definitely going out to get Dr. X. For those who think Dr. X
killed Mary, this was when it happened, most likely. When I hear this
instumental break, however, I'm visualizing wild car chases, a shootout, etc.
I can't tell if he gets Dr. X in the process (there's no gunshot in the
background or any other sound effects for clues,) but it doesn't matter
because Dr. X isn't mentioned again in the story.
>Ps. Sorry about the possible mistakes in the lyrics, I didn't have them with
> me where I was writing...
No big deal, they were almost as good as the originals :-)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>/Seppo
>Santa's Little Helper...
>(Currently on vacation)
Brendan White
>da...@inlink.com (Numb) wrote:
>>In article <43kjci$s...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, rain...@aol.com (RainbowKT) wrote:
>> Trust me we've watched the video about 1000 times, we've had debates that
> lasted weeks, and still no conclusions. I/we feel that only Ryche really knows
> but I would still like opinions from others.
My supposition is not even the band knows for sure.
<ducks flying tomatoes>
-Brendan
--
Brendan White
bw0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
"Back to the Earth I screamed- and no one listened to me. Back to the Earth
I lived and they all followed... Come and see my world * "- Rusted Root
Jeff Archer
Numb <da...@inlink.com> wrote:
>In article <43ppqn$j...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, dss...@aol.com (DSSJMS) wrote:
>
>> It could have been Father William. He probably wasn't too happy with his
An interestingobservation; he certainly had motive, but never an opportunity.
From what I've heard in other conversations, Nikki has already killed Father
William before he goes to see Mary in "Suite Sister Mary", even though he
gets the order for same at the beginning of that song.
Rycher
(Wolverine) writes:
>I always thought that Dr. X killed Mary. If I remeber Right that is him
with
>rosary beads rapped around his hands going into the chapel where Mary is.
>That
>would be supported by Nikki later sayiing "Your rosary wrapped aroung
your
>throat".
"Your rosary wrapped aroung your throat" could also means that she hung
herself...and well as "chalk outline upon the wall". I believe the boys
wanted it to be ambiguous so promote discussion, but I have heard/read
numerous times that Geoff mentions that the answer is in the Livecrime
viedo....which does flash "Suicide".
Bill.
y
Wolverine
As to the chalk outline that is the wrong lead. Nikki traced the chalk outline.
therefore it couldn't be the outline for the dead body of Mary. Also the scene
for the chalk outline is in Nikki's empty room. So the outline has nothing to
do with who killed Mary.
Gus
Christie West
>
>In article <43ku3t$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ryc...@aol.com (Rycher)
wrote:
>
>> In article <danny-18099...@danny.inlink.com>, danny@inlink.
com
>> (Numb) writes:
>>
>> >
>> > WHO KILLED MARY?
>> > Dr. X.
>> > Nikki.
>> > Suicide?
>> The Livecrime video answers the questions with "Suicide". When Geoff
>>was asked this very question, his reply was to watch the video for the
>>answer.
>>
>> Bill.
I've been told this before, but I watched the video specifically looking
for this, and I still don't see it. I still think that it was Dr. X
("your rosary wrapped around your throat"), and the video shows Dr. X
holding a rosary stretched between his hands. Do you really think they
would flat out tell you after all this time?
Ganesa
David Winfield Bartek
You need to watch the video:mindcrime tape, not livecrime for the suicide
message i believe... it's in the hidden video for I Dont Believe in Love
after the closing credits...
dave
ry...@tamu.edu
http://tam2000.tamu.edu/~dwb4025 The Anarchy Xtra Homepage!
: Ganesa
Eric Shore Baur
(Wolverine) wrote:
>As to the chalk outline that is the wrong lead. Nikki traced the chalk
outline.
>therefore it couldn't be the outline for the dead body of Mary. Also the scene
>for the chalk outline is in Nikki's empty room. So the outline has nothing to
>do with who killed Mary.
In "My Empty Room" it says:
Chalk outline upon the wall,
I remember tracing it
a thousand times, the night she died.
He traced it the night she died. Also, it never says he made the line
himself, he just traced it. It could have been put there by someone else
(police) and he just traced it after the fact.
ba...@ucsub.colorado.edu
http://ucsub.colorado.edu/~baur/eric.html
"I remember now..."
- Nikki
Mindcrimer
(Sinnergrl) writes:
>Has anyone else given any consideration to the notion that, Nikki and
>Mary may not even be
>people? Maybe they're metaphors, the struggle between good and evil,
>the currant path of our
>society, nothing is sacred. With the loss of hope, evil prevails....
>
>Maybe, just maybe Mary and Nikki are one and the same. The struggle
>within ourselves, between
>good and evil. As "Mary" discovers that goodness can't win, she allows
>"Nikki", the bad, take
>over. In a sense...suicide.
>
>Maybe Mary is the earth, Nikki it's ("innocent") inhabitants. While she
>gives openly, "he"
>destroys her in the name of progress. Bigger, better, if it doesn't
>move...kill it, all to create a "New
>Society." In a sense...murder.
>
>Just a thought = )
>
>
>
>
I have to disagree here. Many of you seem to want to make it more than it
really is. These are characters in a story, thats all. Sure it's deep,
but we don't have to try to make it into something it's not. It's not
THAT deep.
Lunatic
8dak...@spcvxb.spc.edu (Wolverine) writes:
> In article <43sp6f$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ryc...@aol.com (Rycher) writes:
> > In article <1995Sep18...@spcvxb.spc.edu>, 8dak...@spcvxb.spc.edu
> > (Wolverine) writes:
> > "Your rosary wrapped aroung your throat" could also means that she hung
> > herself...and well as "chalk outline upon the wall". I believe the boys
> > wanted it to be ambiguous so promote discussion, but I have heard/read
> > numerous times that Geoff mentions that the answer is in the Livecrime
> > viedo....which does flash "Suicide".
> >
> > Bill.
> > y
>
> As to the chalk outline that is the wrong lead. Nikki traced the chalk outline.
> therefore it couldn't be the outline for the dead body of Mary. Also the scene
> for the chalk outline is in Nikki's empty room. So the outline has nothing to
> do with who killed Mary.
>
> Gus
The full lyrics (which need to be taken into account) are
'chalk outline upon the wall, I remember tracing it
a thousand times, oh, the night she died'
This suggests to me, not that he drew the original outline, but that he
sat/stood there mindlessly running his fingers around it. Everyone
seems to assume the line 'I remember tracing it' means Nikki *drew* it.
This interpretation (I believe) is more in character (I envision Nikki
standing there in a drug/grief-induced stupor, a blank look on his
face, running his hands around the outline on the wall). As for the
overall theory, I don't think Nikki did it, but I'm undecided whether
it was suicide, or if Dr. X got her.
'I'm not a trendy a**hole, do what I want, do what I feel like!'
'God may be able to get me out of this, but you're f**ked!'
Quotes from Offspring and Braveheart respectively.
Lun...@earthlight.co.nz : eternally mad, always crazy
Mark McEvoy
> Suite Sister Mary Nikki say "your priest is cold and dead other will be next"
> So father william is already dead. Also back to the suicide how could someone
> strangle themselves with rosary beads?
In much the same way one may use a noose. Place neck in loop,
hang loop from fixed object, and let gravity do the rest.
So am I to presume you think it was Nikki, or Dr. X?
|\/|\/|
Mindcrimer
<Pine.SGI.3.91.950920...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>, "Felix
. Garcia" <feli...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> writes:
>I still say Mary committed suicide. I wrote an entire commentary
>in my school magazine explaining the mystery. I could be wrong, but
>evidence strongly suggests suicide and several others seem to agree more
>on that theory than anything else.
Amen, finally someone who is smart enough to figure it out.
Mindcrimer
>It could have been Father William. He probably wasn't too happy with his
>main squeeze spending time with an urchin like Nikki. In the video
>mindcrime outro it shows Father William catching the two young lovebirds
>on the altar steps and he has a rosary in his hands at the time . Maybe
>in a fit of rage he kills mary and nikki is too strung out to stop him,
>then traces mary's outline before (or after) offing the priest. Food
for
>thought or maybe I'm an idiot
Umm. No! Father William is already dead!!!! Damn Morons!!!
Mindcrimer
writes:
>At the end of Video: Mindcrime, it shows Dr. X wrapping a rosary
>around his hands to choke her. Thats the clue I have, Plus the fact
>Nikki says, 'Your rosary wrapped around your throat.'
Yeah, and it also shows Father William in the same church. If he wasn't
dead already, there might be some significance to Dr.X being shown there
also. In this case, however, it means nothing. Mary killed herself.
Frank Sewald
Actually on the video version of Mindcrime (I have both) you can see that Dr.
X is the one who strangles/hangs Mary. The priest is already dead at this
point. My own personal opinion about what happened follows.
Nikki convinces Mary to leave with him. They go back to his apartment and he
goes off to tell Dr. X that he is through. When he gets back, she is already
dead. On the album you can hear him coming in and finding the body. This is in
the track "Electric Requiem." Dr. X would have numerous reasons for killing
her, number one would be to keep Nikki from escaping or going to the police.
Of course it's unclear as to how Nikki gets caught, I've heard some say that
he's arrested for Mary's death, others say that he turns himself in or the
police manage to track him down.
Well that's my two cents.
Tensai
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Frank Sewald | "Why should I whisper |
| ten...@interaccess.com | when the caged bird sings." |
| Chicago, Il | "Second best, is exactly that." |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Mark McEvoy
> In article <44430e$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> mindc...@aol.com (Mindcrimer) writes:
> >In article <43t9ht$k...@news.ios.com>, cc...@styx.ios.com (Mystic Dragon)
> >writes:
> >>At the end of Video: Mindcrime, it shows Dr. X wrapping a rosary
> >>around his hands to choke her. Thats the clue I have, Plus the fact
> >>Nikki says, 'Your rosary wrapped around your throat.'
> >Yeah, and it also shows Father William in the same church. If he wasn't
> >dead already, there might be some significance to Dr.X being shown there
> >also. In this case, however, it means nothing. Mary killed herself.
> Actually on the video version of Mindcrime (I have both) you can see that Dr.
> X is the one who strangles/hangs Mary. The priest is already dead at this
> point. My own personal opinion about what happened follows.
The videos present a lot of conflicting solutions; I wouldn't
call the videos concrete evidence.
> Nikki convinces Mary to leave with him. They go back to his apartment and he
> goes off to tell Dr. X that he is through. When he gets back, she is already
> dead. On the album you can hear him coming in and finding the body. This is in
> the track "Electric Requiem." Dr. X would have numerous reasons for killing
> her, number one would be to keep Nikki from escaping or going to the police.
Or due to the fact that Dr. X wanted her dead and his best
assassin failed to get the job done - "Kill her... she's a risk". Given.
However, there's one line in the song that I've failed to see
addressed regarding this debate: "Chalk outline upon the wall...". If
someone's strangled <as the Dr. X theory would suggest> the body tends
to be on the FLOOR, not the wall. However, if someone were to, say,
hang herself, the body would be suspended vertically... and thus an
outline of the body being on a wall rather than a floor. But maybe
I'm just insane.
> Of course it's unclear as to how Nikki gets caught, I've heard some say that
> he's arrested for Mary's death, others say that he turns himself in or the
> police manage to track him down.
If there's any stock to be put in the Livecrime libretto, it
says "Unwilling to accept Mary's death, Nikki runs like a raving
madman through the streets... The police arrest Nikki. The charges
are: disorderly conduct, carrying a concealed weapon without a
license, and resisting arrest... his weapon also matches the one used
in a string of recent killings."
|\/|\/|
LADIEINBLK
(RainbowKT) writes:
>(Paul Ready) writes:
>
>>That line has also bugged me. It's often taken to imply that she
>>hung herself, but would the police really do a chalk outline of her
>>projcetion on the wall, or draw a circle on the floor where she hung?
>>Or both? I also think that if someone was strangled and the body was
>>leaned up against a wall, or if someone was shot and died against a
>>wall that some of the chalk outline could be on the wall? The body
>>would probably fall if it were standing, but may not if sitting.
>>
>>
>
>Maybe Dr. X nailed the strangled Mary to the wall by the rosery, to
drive
>the already half crazed Nikki, over the edge?
>
>
It's been awhile since I watched this but, wasn't Dr. X shown with a
smokin' gun in his hand? this led me to ascertain that he killed her.
Whatever was chalked outlined on the wall must have been where Mary was
found. Dr. X, one could assume grabbed her rosary and used it to
dibilitate her while he pulled his gun out and against the wall is where
she fell when he shot her.
I could be all wrong here tho'... I guess I better go re-watch the video
<g>
Paul Ready
> Or due to the fact that Dr. X wanted her dead and his best
>assassin failed to get the job done - "Kill her... she's a risk". Given.
This is a part of the story that has always bothered me. Why did
Dr. X want Mary (and William) dead? She's a risk? That always
seemed a thin excuse, she was too weak to be a real risk. Dr X
had to know that Mary was a big part of what kept Nikki under
control, that it was more than the heroin and the brainwashing,
he's too smart with everything else for me not to give him credit
there. I always figured that Nikki was Mary's purpose in the
order "a whore for the underground" Why risk losing your assassin
who believed he was an avenging angel or some sort of new prophet
fulfilling some grand mission just to take out a couple of minor
players, one just as an afterthought?
The only thing that I can see here is that Dr. X was planning on
shutting Nikki down and wanted to tie up all the lose ends and
drive him completely over the edge in the process. If Nikki
goes insane, he might not be able to stand trial, and if he
does, he couldn't finger the order. Perhaps Nikki's mission
is complete and all of the enemies that stood in Dr. X's way
to power are gone. Then he would have to tie up all the deaths
by providing a crazed Nikki as a killer to insure that the killings
do not look like a revolution planned by some secret orginazation.
>However, there's one line in the song that I've failed to see
>addressed regarding this debate: "Chalk outline upon the wall...". If
That line has also bugged me. It's often taken to imply that she
hung herself, but would the police really do a chalk outline of her
projcetion on the wall, or draw a circle on the floor where she hung?
Or both? I also think that if someone was strangled and the body was
leaned up against a wall, or if someone was shot and died against a
wall that some of the chalk outline could be on the wall? The body
would probably fall if it were standing, but may not if sitting.
Paul
RainbowKT
(Paul Ready) writes:
>That line has also bugged me. It's often taken to imply that she
>hung herself, but would the police really do a chalk outline of her
>projcetion on the wall, or draw a circle on the floor where she hung?
>Or both? I also think that if someone was strangled and the body was
>leaned up against a wall, or if someone was shot and died against a
>wall that some of the chalk outline could be on the wall? The body
>would probably fall if it were standing, but may not if sitting.
>
>
Maybe Dr. X nailed the strangled Mary to the wall by the rosery, to drive
Mindcrimer
(Frank Sewald) writes:
>Nikki convinces Mary to leave with him. They go back to his apartment and
he
>goes off to tell Dr. X that he is through. When he gets back, she is
already
>dead. On the album you can hear him coming in and finding the body. This
is
>in
>the track "Electric Requiem." Dr. X would have numerous reasons for
killing
>her, number one would be to keep Nikki from escaping or going to the
police.
No, Mary committed suicide.
Mark McEvoy
> > Or due to the fact that Dr. X wanted her dead and his best
> >assassin failed to get the job done - "Kill her... she's a risk". Given.
> This is a part of the story that has always bothered me. Why did
> Dr. X want Mary (and William) dead? She's a risk? That always
> seemed a thin excuse, she was too weak to be a real risk. Dr X
> had to know that Mary was a big part of what kept Nikki under
> control, that it was more than the heroin and the brainwashing,
> he's too smart with everything else for me not to give him credit
> there. I always figured that Nikki was Mary's purpose in the
> order "a whore for the underground" Why risk losing your assassin
> who believed he was an avenging angel or some sort of new prophet
> fulfilling some grand mission just to take out a couple of minor
> players, one just as an afterthought?
I think it was originally a loyalty test. The Operation knew
that Nikki loved Mary, and they needed to see if he'd kill someone he
loved for the Operation. When he didn't, then they may have had
reason to believe they'd try to get away... so at THAT point, she'd
be a risk... they couldn't afford to have Nikki and Mary on the loose
and not under their control.
> The only thing that I can see here is that Dr. X was planning on
> shutting Nikki down and wanted to tie up all the lose ends and
> drive him completely over the edge in the process. If Nikki
> goes insane, he might not be able to stand trial, and if he
> does, he couldn't finger the order. Perhaps Nikki's mission
> is complete and all of the enemies that stood in Dr. X's way
> to power are gone. Then he would have to tie up all the deaths
> by providing a crazed Nikki as a killer to insure that the killings
> do not look like a revolution planned by some secret orginazation.
Wouldn't it have been easier for the Operation to just do away
with Nikki? This killer's all used up, dispose of him. I don't think
the Operation would have expected Nikki's reaction to Mary's death to
be so severe.
> >However, there's one line in the song that I've failed to see
> >addressed regarding this debate: "Chalk outline upon the wall...". If
> That line has also bugged me. It's often taken to imply that she
> hung herself, but would the police really do a chalk outline of her
> projcetion on the wall, or draw a circle on the floor where she hung?
> Or both? I also think that if someone was strangled and the body was
> leaned up against a wall, or if someone was shot and died against a
> wall that some of the chalk outline could be on the wall? The body
> would probably fall if it were standing, but may not if sitting.
They'd do an outline wherever the body touched a solid
surface. The fact that it's on the wall doesn't rule out the
possibility of a strangling.. it just seems to lessen the probability.
What reason would Dr. X have to prop a dead body against a wall?
Another potential scenario explains the 2 major pieces of
evidence for both sides (The vision of Dr X holding Mary's rosary, and
the word SUICIDE)... Is it possible that Dr. X 'convinced' (via the
same drugs used on Nikki) Mary to kill herself? That way, Nikki would
feel betrayed by Nikki, not by the Operation, and more likely to be just
depressed than vengeful.
|\/|\/|
Dave Croll
> It could have been Father William. He probably wasn't too happy with his
> main squeeze spending time with an urchin like Nikki. In the video
> mindcrime outro it shows Father William catching the two young lovebirds
> on the altar steps and he has a rosary in his hands at the time . Maybe
> in a fit of rage he kills mary and nikki is too strung out to stop him,
> then traces mary's outline before (or after) offing the priest. Food for
> thought or maybe I'm an idiot
>
Well...I don't think so!!!! See Suite Sister Mary "The priest is cold
and dead, on his knees he fed, from my barrel of death..."
Dave Croll
> >addressed regarding this debate: "Chalk outline upon the wall...". If
>
> That line has also bugged me. It's often taken to imply that she
> hung herself, but would the police really do a chalk outline of her
> projcetion on the wall, or draw a circle on the floor where she hung?
> Or both? I also think that if someone was strangled and the body was
> leaned up against a wall, or if someone was shot and died against a
> wall that some of the chalk outline could be on the wall? The body
> would probably fall if it were standing, but may not if sitting.
>
>
I just thought of a possible explaination for this. We know Nikki found
her dead (probably hanging), so what would be the first instinct of
someone finding their lover hanging...cut them down, of course. He could
have then leaned her up against the wall as she is shown in parts of
Operation:Livecrime.
What if then after "Breaking the Silence" he comes back to Mary's room
and the police find him there. Mary is no longer hanging, but has been
stranged by her Rosary, so naturally they would assume that the
gun-toting maniac has strangled her and was too stupid (or high) to run away.
Just a wild guess, but it is consistent with the story.
Dave C
Greg Belmonte
> : I've always taken this as, she wants him to inject her with some heroin so
> : they can have some wild sex, like they usually did before we went off to kill
> : someone. (BTW, I think the lyrics are "The only peace...", but "ease" is
> : close enough.) Ultimately, I think Mary was a worse addict than Nikki was.
>
> I always took the bit about "The only peace I've ever known / I close my
> eyes, you shoot" as Sister Mary saying that she wanted to die a quick
> death, to get all of the pain over with (after all she did see Nikki
> with a gun and she did see him shoot Father William). Maybe she knew that
> Nikki was sent over by Dr. X to kill her.
This makes sense, but I kind of lean away from it because of "The only
peace I've ever known". She can't be as familiar with the peace of death
as she certainly is with the peace of getting seriously stoned.
> ... they find that they are wildly
> attracted to each other and just have sex on the altar.
Oh, c'mon, they already knew this :-) Just another walk in the park :-)
> Just a thought
> Peace
> -Joe
>
When you come to a tea ceremony, you must approach the teacher with your cup
empty. If your cup is full, he will have nothing to give you.
Anthony Goodrich Jones
>In article <44733s$l...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, rain...@aol.com
>(RainbowKT) writes:
>
>>(Paul Ready) writes:
>>
>>>hung herself, but would the police really do a chalk outline of her
>>>projcetion on the wall, or draw a circle on the floor where she hung?
>>Maybe Dr. X nailed the strangled Mary to the wall by the rosery, to
>drive
>>the already half crazed Nikki, over the edge?
>>
>
>smokin' gun in his hand? this led me to ascertain that he killed her.
>Whatever was chalked outlined on the wall must have been where Mary was
>found. Dr. X, one could assume grabbed her rosary and used it to
>dibilitate her while he pulled his gun out and against the wall is where
>she fell when he shot her.
>
>I could be all wrong here tho'... I guess I better go re-watch the video
><g>
I think Nikki was so dazed after he found Mary's body that he had
gone somewhere and outlined a picture of something (Mary?). He then
breaks out of his reverie. Hence "Chack outline upon the wall, I
remember tracing it"
Anyway, thats my $.02 worth.
aj
Seppo Antero Tolonen
and they don't just want to kill him, because that could take the blame off
from him...
: >However, there's one line in the song that I've failed to see
: >addressed regarding this debate: "Chalk outline upon the wall...". If
: That line has also bugged me. It's often taken to imply that she
: hung herself, but would the police really do a chalk outline of her
: projcetion on the wall, or draw a circle on the floor where she hung?
: Or both? I also think that if someone was strangled and the body was
: leaned up against a wall, or if someone was shot and died against a
: wall that some of the chalk outline could be on the wall? The body
: would probably fall if it were standing, but may not if sitting.
I have wondered that also. I never thought of hanging before this debate,
I always thought she was strangled or shot to death. I don't think the police
would draw a line in the wall, if she hung herself...
One more thing. If the police draw the line on the wall, did Nikki break into
her apartment after the police had sealed it off for investigation, and found
there afterwards??? This could make sense, does the video offer an explanation
for this??? (I haven't seen it... =( )
Btw. what does this line in 'Breaking the silence' mean?
'They told me to run but just how far
can I go wearing the black mask of hate...'
What does THEY stand for???? The underground?? Perhaps they were waiting Nikki
when he got back from Dr. X and had killed Mary. When Nikki got back they told
him to run away if he didn't want to get caught. (?)
And about this Mary conversation, if you're not interested, don't read it. I
know you old-timers have discussed this a thousand times before, but not all
have. So, like someone else said, as long as it stays intellectual enough,
it's fine by me... We're not trying to convict anyone here.... =)
William Justin Williams
>Btw. what does this line in 'Breaking the silence' mean?
>'They told me to run but just how far
> can I go wearing the black mask of hate...'
>
>What does THEY stand for???? The underground?? Perhaps they were waiting Nikki
Have you watched any of the new series "Nowhere Man" yet? Heh...just
kidding.
--Bill
--
"Sacrifice, they always say, is a sign of nobility
But where does one draw the line in the face of injury?"
--Queensryche, "Someone Else?"
http://www.umich.edu/~dhaller ** Home of the Official Sam & Max Homepage!
Ram Krishnan
Operation Mindcrime the video.....
Ram.
White Rat
on Eyes of a Stranger. Also, just because they show Doctor X with a
rosary doesn't mean a thing. They also showed the priest coming up behind
Mary with a rosary in his hands. Maybe he was into breath control games.
And if you watch the livecrim video you will see a part where Doctor X
tests his contro on Nikki by having him put a gun to his head and pull the
trigger. The drug is absolute. Nikki killed Mary when he was going
through withdrawal and can't even remember it until he sobers up and looks
into the eyes of a stranger. Let's face it, the story starts out with
"I remember now, I remember how it started, I can't remember yesterday,
I just remember doing what they told me, told me, ....
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And they told him to kill Mary. He fought it but in the end the drug won.
This is Queensryche's message, and if it is not, if Nikki did not kill Mary,
then Operation: Mindcrime is a Disney movie. Not the dark, intricate,
90's style shakespearian tragedy that one would expect from these guys.
--
Kevin S. Grant
The Zaygierian Legend \|---
kgra...@solix.fiu.edu
Brendan White
>If you have frame by frame capability on your vcr, use it. Especially
>on Eyes of a Stranger. Also, just because they show Doctor X with a
>rosary doesn't mean a thing. They also showed the priest coming up behind
>Mary with a rosary in his hands. Maybe he was into breath control games.
>And if you watch the livecrim video you will see a part where Doctor X
>tests his contro on Nikki by having him put a gun to his head and pull the
>trigger. The drug is absolute.
this is the reason that nikki goes mad. He can accept someone (Dr. X)
telling him to kill himself, because he doesnt have much to live for. It
doesnt take much convincing to pull a trigger against his head. Mary, on
the other hand, gave him something to live for, and someone to care about.
The drug was *not* absolute, or else the entire suite sister mary song
wouldnt have happened. He was questioning his orders.
>This is Queensryche's message, and if it is not, if Nikki did not kill Mary,
>then Operation: Mindcrime is a Disney movie. Not the dark, intricate,
>90's style shakespearian tragedy that one would expect from these guys.
If nikki didnt kill mary, it's a disney movie? At the end of the sequence,
nikki is in jail (or awaiting going there), his "only friend" is dead for
one reason or another, Dr. X is free, and all the people he killed are still
dead. How can you *not* call that a dark, intricate 90's style tragedy?
--
Brendan White
bw0...@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
"Strange how laughter looks like crying with no sound.. raindrops taste like
tears without the pain" -- Queensryche
Kirstin A Dosh
>he's arrested for Mary's death, others say that he turns himself in or the
>police manage to track him down.
>
box set:
"Unwilling to accept Mary's death, Nikki runs like a raving madman
through the streets calling her name. Everywhere he looks he sees her
face. The police arrest Nikki. The charges are: disorderly conduct,
carrying a concealed weapon without a licence, and ressisting arrest.
They he's a junkie because of the track son his arms. His weapon also
matches the one used in a string of recent killings...."
____
___/" >,\ ____________,\ Kirstin A. Dosh
|" > /<_">___/ ____\ . "\">______ kd...@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu
| \/ \" _\__ "\/ \\_/ \ \ "\
| \ .\ .\ .\ "i .> .\ .\ \ .> University of Arizona
<____\__//__//_//____//___//___//__>_// Bilingual Education Junior
Ciaran Walsh
>da...@inlink.com (Numb) wrote:
>>Hello everyone,
>> Okay, me and some friends have an on going debate that I thought I would get all of you involved in.
>> WHO KILLED MARY?
>> Dr. X.
>> Nikki.
>> Suicide?
> Dr. X did. It says in Eyes of a Stranger on the 7th line, 'Your
>rosary wrapped around your throat.' And at the end of Video:
>Mindcrime, Dr. X is shown going into the church wrapping the rosary
>tight in his hands, as if he was going to choke someone. Argh .. Just
>see Video: Mindcrime! Too hard to explain it.
I haven't seen Video:Mindcrime, but based on how it's been described,
what do you think of this as a scenario:
Nikki leaves Mary to go confront Dr. X, leaving her in a
semi-delerious state. Dr. X turns up and tells her that Nikki's dead,
driving her further into despair. He just happens to have a handy
re-inforced rosary and helps her commit suicide. No blood on his
hands, and it sets Nikki up nicely for a fall. It's also possible
that Mary was under the same kind of control as Nikki, and Dr. X just
had to tell her to kill herself - which then raises the question of
why get Nikki to do it? :-)
Ciaran
------ Ciaran Walsh -- Cia...@styx.demon.co.uk -------------------
"Sometimes there just aren't enough rocks" - Forrest Gump
"Luminous beings are we, not this crude stuff" - Yoda
"No-one can hear when you're Screaming in Digital!" - Queensryche
------ These are my views, not yours! ----------------------------
Robert E Mandeville
Paul Ready <rais...@expert.cc.purdue.edu> wrote:
>>However, there's one line in the song that I've failed to see
>>addressed regarding this debate: "Chalk outline upon the wall...". If
>
>That line has also bugged me. It's often taken to imply that she
>hung herself, but would the police really do a chalk outline of her
>projcetion on the wall, or draw a circle on the floor where she hung?
>Or both? I also think that if someone was strangled and the body was
>leaned up against a wall, or if someone was shot and died against a
>wall that some of the chalk outline could be on the wall? The body
>would probably fall if it were standing, but may not if sitting.
I can only imagine the police chalking the wall if the body was
against it. And I can only think of one method of death which leaves
the body there:
She was nailed to it.
The rosary might just have been an added touch (I can see someone
getting strangled by one, but not hanged by it). Considering the
religious imagery, this theory makes some twisted kind of sense.
--rR
--
Rob "ReRob" Mandeville, rem...@world.std.com
Virtual Labs, Inc., Eyrie Publications, Uninc., Computer Sports Systems
Felix . Garcia
On 5 Oct 1995, David Vincent Halpern wrote:
>
>
> Give me a break, people! Do you think that the guys in the band would
> allow the answer to be so obvious???? "Nikki killed Mary." "Dr. X killed
> Mary." TOO OBVIOUS!!!!!!
> In the booklet to _Operation:LIVECrime_, it says of Mary, "She hated
> <Nikki>, she hated men, she hated life." SHE HATED LIFE. I think that
> that is a strong indication that she killed herself!
> And as for the "chalk outline upon the wall": Nikki has been sitting
> in his room for days, with nothing to do. HIS ROOM, NOT MARY'S. I always
> thought that b/c he was alone, all he did was make a drawing on the wall,
> and just kept tracing it and tracing it and tracing it in pensive madness.
> He didn't kill her in withdrawal b/c he had been on the street for days
> ("The Neddle Lies").
> It's a given fact that the guys in the band are very crafty and
> ingenuitive (I have seen them described as "the thinking man's band," and
> I agree). As a result, I don't think that they would allow the answer to
> be so obvious. The images in the video are meant to give an idea of what
> is going on, but not of what the final acts are.
> Keep in mind that all of this is said IMHO, but I really do think
> that I am onto something. Anyone else agree?
>
> David
>
> BTW, I saw the guys on the _Promised Land_ Tour, and it RULED!!!!!!!!! :)
>
>
>
Since you mentioned the libretto from Livecrime, I just
remembered that the libretto also stated that Nikki would draw images of
his victims upon the dingy, white walls. In the Video:Mindcrime, he is
shown drawing on the floor with chalk among other things, but chalk was
also used to make Mary's outline upon the wall. Maybe Nikki did kill
Mary and that's what the chalk outline was from? This too is IMHO. What
do you all think?
Felix
David K. Folger
>cc...@styx.ios.com (Mystic Dragon) wrote:
>
>>da...@inlink.com (Numb) wrote:
>
>>>Hello everyone,
>>> Okay, me and some friends have an on going debate that I thought I would get all of you involved in.
>
>>> WHO KILLED MARY?
>>> Dr. X.
>>> Nikki.
>>> Suicide?
>
>> Dr. X did. It says in Eyes of a Stranger on the 7th line, 'Your
>>rosary wrapped around your throat.' And at the end of Video:
>>Mindcrime, Dr. X is shown going into the church wrapping the rosary
>>tight in his hands, as if he was going to choke someone. Argh .. Just
>>see Video: Mindcrime! Too hard to explain it.
OK.. I have two friends (on line) who have Video:Mindcrime. One of them says
that in the credits at the end, it says Mary Commits Suicide. My other
friend however says that she watched the credits and it doesn't say that.
She says after the credits, it has a short scene that shows Mary with a
knife and then the word suicide flashes on the screen... But it is
inconclusive.. and as far as what you said.. that second friend of mine made
the exact same point to me.
>I haven't seen Video:Mindcrime, but based on how it's been described,
>what do you think of this as a scenario:
>
>Nikki leaves Mary to go confront Dr. X, leaving her in a
>semi-delerious state. Dr. X turns up and tells her that Nikki's dead,
>driving her further into despair. He just happens to have a handy
>re-inforced rosary and helps her commit suicide. No blood on his
>hands, and it sets Nikki up nicely for a fall. It's also possible
>that Mary was under the same kind of control as Nikki, and Dr. X just
>had to tell her to kill herself - which then raises the question of
>why get Nikki to do it? :-)
That's good... at this point, I don't even think it matters who's right.. I
think it's better just to take what we do know and form our own creative
conclusions.. I think that's what the band wanted anyway.
What I wonder is how many people worked for Dr.X? I ask these types of
questions.. In the livecrime book, it says that Nikki is the key player in
all of this..(paraphrased).. but do you really think that a man like Dr.X
would put all his faith in the abilities of just one street kid? And your
point about why get Nikki to do it? The best answer I have is that Dr.X was
testing Nikki's loyalty.
David Vincent Halpern
David K. Folger
>
>
>On 5 Oct 1995, David Vincent Halpern wrote:
>
>>
>>
>remembered that the libretto also stated that Nikki would draw images of
>his victims upon the dingy, white walls. In the Video:Mindcrime, he is
>shown drawing on the floor with chalk among other things, but chalk was
>also used to make Mary's outline upon the wall. Maybe Nikki did kill
>Mary and that's what the chalk outline was from? This too is IMHO. What
>do you all think?
>
>Felix
I say go to the original source.. the album itself. In the album, it is not
so obvious that Mary wants to kill herself.. really the only clue to that is
the part where she says "The only peace I've ever known, I'll close my eyes
and you shoot." But what I always try to get at is just listen to the album
at the beginning of electric requium. The first thing you hear is the door
squeaking as it opens, then Nikki shouts "Anybody home?" Then the door slams
and then Nikki says "Mary!?!" Now this leads me to believe that Mary's body
was not visible when Nikki first opened the door... which means that her
body was behind the door. Now at the beginning of Suite Sister Mary, it is
made absolutly clear that Dr.X wants Mary to be killed "Kill her, that's all
you have to do.... she's a risk.." So.. if Dr.X sent Nikki to kill Mary, and
Nikki didn't do it, don't you think that Dr.X would have sent someone else
to do it... or do it himself? And if some assassin had been sent to kill
Mary, wouldn't a nice plan be to somehow get into her house and wait for
Mary to get home.. perhaps hide behind the door so that when she closes it,
she will be taken totally by surprise? And if that did happen, wouldn't it
also cause Mary's body to be pretty much behind the door? And that is
consistent with the sounds on the album. And I don't think I need to even
mention that this is IMHO..
-David Folger
PS I don't care who or what is right in this whole matter.. I just love to
hear what people think of it and why.. so.. if any one has any theories that
seems to make some sense, I'd like to hear about them..
E-Mail address: dfo...@wnec.edu
Mindcrimer
kd...@argon.GAS.UUG.Arizona.EDU (Kirstin A Dosh) writes:
>"Unwilling to accept Mary's death, Nikki runs like a raving madman
>through the streets calling her name. Everywhere he looks he sees her
>face. The police arrest Nikki. The charges are: disorderly conduct,
>carrying a concealed weapon without a licence, and ressisting arrest.
>They he's a junkie because of the track son his arms. His weapon also
>matches the one used in a string of recent killings...."
Glad to see that someone is observant enough to follow the things the band
has given us. What more do we need as far as clues go. It's all there.
Quit digging and shoveling.
Mindcrimer
(David Vincent Halpern) writes:
> In the booklet to _Operation:LIVECrime_, it says of Mary, "She hated
><Nikki>, she hated men, she hated life." SHE HATED LIFE. I think that
>that is a strong indication that she killed herself!
This is exactly what I said a few months ago. It's very obvious that she
killed herself. I don't understand the speculation...
jmin...@forest.drew.edu
the livecrime vide right after "Suite Sister Mary," "Does anyone know
what happens to Mary?" (something like that). Are we supposed to know for
sure?
-Drew
RainbowKT
My VCR finally gave in and played Building Empires. While watching it, I
noticed something that I don't recall being brought in this thread.
During "Eyes of a stranger" they show Mary dead on the alter, Nikki
knealing beside her. If there were a chalk outline at the scene, it
wouldn't have been at on the wall. Also, don't all Nuns live in
convents(sp?)?
I wouldn't think that *any* men would be allowed in her room. And, why,
during Suite Sister Mary, is she not wearing a habit, why is she already
dressed in the angelic white robe, when the song implies she's still
alive, are those Nun jammies?
Just some thoughts...
David K. Folger
>>Subject: Re: Who killed Mary?????????????????????????????????
>
>My VCR finally gave in and played Building Empires. While watching it, I
>noticed something that I don't recall being brought in this thread.
>During "Eyes of a stranger" they show Mary dead on the alter, Nikki
>knealing beside her. If there were a chalk outline at the scene, it
>wouldn't have been at on the wall. Also, don't all Nuns live in
>convents(sp?)?
My friend told me about that scene (I think she saw it on video mindcrime).
I told her to check it again.. perhaps Mary wasn't dead, just freaked out
from her vision. She looked at it again and she still thinks Mary looks dead
but is not certain of it...
>I wouldn't think that *any* men would be allowed in her room. And, why,
>during Suite Sister Mary, is she not wearing a habit, why is she already
>dressed in the angelic white robe, when the song implies she's still
>alive, are those Nun jammies?
Don't you think it would be a shame if they dressed up someone as beautiful
as Mary as a nun?
Actually though.. if you look at the livecrime video, she's got the angelic
white robe, and at first Nikki (Geoff) only hears her voice.. and when he
does see her, it seems that there is some force that is keeping them apart.
Maybe that's when Mary "said she'd meet me on the other side"
>Just some thoughts...
When it comes to Operation:Mindcrime and Queensryche in general, they are
all just some thoughts.
David Vincent Halpern
: In article <8127162...@styx.demon.co.uk> Cia...@styx.demon.co.uk (Ciaran Walsh) writes:
: OK.. I have two friends (on line) who have Video:Mindcrime. One of them says
: that in the credits at the end, it says Mary Commits Suicide. My other
: friend however says that she watched the credits and it doesn't say that.
: She says after the credits, it has a short scene that shows Mary with a
: knife and then the word suicide flashes on the screen... But it is
: inconclusive.. and as far as what you said.. that second friend of mine made
: the exact same point to me.
Umm....that's a new one for me.. I'd love to know where your
friend got her video...must be a special edition or somethin'
I don't EVER recall seeing any of this, either in the video or
after the credits...must be one of those special European versions that we
Americans aren't privy to :)
David
I'll go check the video, but I don't think anything is there...
Timothy Byrne
the album and not Video : Mindcrime or Operation : Livecrime, I would say
this : Operation Mindcrime is NIKKI's story. Every song is from his point of
view (with the possible exception of part of Spreading the Disease). The
whole album is his memories from his hospital bed. From what he says (ie the
lyrics) it seems that it was Mary's death rather than the fact that she was
murdered by Dr.X/committed suicide that pierced his soul and led to the
feelings expressed in Breaking the Silence, I Don't Believe in Love and Eyes
of a Stranger. He must try to go on without Mary, and it does not matter to
him how she was snatched away from him. Feel free to disagree, but don't get
abusive.....
Tim B.
Man on the Edge
>I say go to the original source.. the album itself. In the album, it is not
>so obvious that Mary wants to kill herself.. really the only clue to that is
>the part where she says "The only peace I've ever known, I'll close my eyes
>and you shoot."
OK, this may not be obvious to some, but I always thought it was quite
obvious that the above quote is a sexual innuendo. I'll leave it to
the reader to guess what Nikki shoots when Mary closes her eyes. This
is analogous to "my faith is growing tight against the seam". Need
more explanations?
Max :)
--
Oh what a nice contented world
Let the banners be unfurled
Hold the Red Star proudly high in hand.
Neil Peart, 1976
Mindcrimer
(Man on the Edge) writes:
>really the only clue to that is
>>the part where she says "The only peace I've ever known, I'll close my
eyes
>>and you shoot."
Actually, in that line she is referring to the mainline addiction. "Bind
my arm and feed my mind, the only peace i've ever known, I'll close my
eyes, you shoot." There are many clues to suicide given in the Livecrime
booklet, as well as the Video:Mindcrime tape. Check it out.
Mindcrimer
>OK, this may not be obvious to some, but I always thought it was quite
>obvious that the above quote is a sexual innuendo. I'll leave it to
>the reader to guess what Nikki shoots when Mary closes her eyes.
LOL! No, I doubt that. Read the verses before and after the line you are
referring to. That's pretty funny though.
David Joyce
>dfo...@wnec.edu (David K. Folger) wisely said:
>>I say go to the original source.. the album itself. In the album, it is not
>>the part where she says "The only peace I've ever known, I'll close my eyes
>>and you shoot."
>
>obvious that the above quote is a sexual innuendo. I'll leave it to
>is analogous to "my faith is growing tight against the seam". Need
>more explanations?
>
Oh, I always thought that was a DRUGS quote....as in shooting heroin (or
something). The peace is the temporary high given by the drug...before
she comes crashing back to reality. Looking at Marys background, I find
it hard to imagine that she would find sex peaceful....
Just a 'flame-free' opinion.
Cheers,
Dave