Gay Beatles Fans
Bruce Mirken
memory fails me--looking for gay Beatles fans willing to be interviewed for
an article I was writing. Well, the article came out today, and can be
found online at http://www.frontiersweb.com/sfv20iss12/Pages/feat_3.html
Please note that this link will be good for about 4 weeks only.
"Rulers have ever taught and encouraged the spirit of patriotism, that they
might call upon their slaves to give their labor to the privileged class and
to freely offer up their lives when the king demands."
--Clarence Darrow
SWever
memory fails me--looking for gay Beatles fans willing to be interviewed for
Great article, Bruce! You done good! ;)
Stefan
Rich Forman
he makes about how the Beatles' forward-looking, freewheeling,
freedom-loving, optimistic, lighthearted, inclusive,
difference-celebrating, hypocrisy-deflating lyrics moved, inspired and
comforted him throughout childhood, are pretty universally relatable
by anyone, straight, gay or whatever.
richforman
"Bruce Mirken" <sftr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<Umav7.3350$3i3.3...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
Jeremy Boob
"Bruce Mirken" <sftr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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> memory fails me--looking for gay Beatles fans willing to be interviewed
for
> an article I was writing. Well, the article came out today,
"came out today".
Sorry....kinda cracked me up...
Rich Diakun
That is a marvelous piece of journalism. Thank you for writing that. It
shows how universal is the appeal of the music those four wonderful people
gave the world. It made me think of the very intensely personal messages
that I got from the Beatles' music, and how wonderful it is that other
people were able to take the same songs and have their own equally intense
and personal relationships with them.
- Rich
"Bruce Mirken" <sftr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
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Bruce Mirken
Thanks, Rich.
"Rich Diakun" <URDE...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
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lennon fan
I think the rigidity of gay culture is an embarrassment, for a group
that likes to think of themselves as fashionable trendsetters they have
all the diversity of the Taliban.
Other lyrics that may have an implied gay meaning:
segments of While My Guitar Gently Weeps,
and If I Fell.
Paul also put out a cd with Allen Ginsburg shortly before his death.
Paul also speaks lovingly of his gay friends in Many Years From Now.
John was close friends with Elton John and David Bowie (in his glam
days)...and we won't discuss Mick and Brian of the Stones;)
The Beatles should be every bit the icons of Gay culture that Judy
Barbra and Madonna are. In an era when these issues were not publicly
discussed, the Fabs gave some serious hints through their tunes.
Gay culture has an ultimate diva in Yma Sumac, but they're too damn
stupid to see it.
At least the gay boys in the B-52's could:))
regards from lennonfan
Rich Diakun
fan and a journalist with the Palm Beach Post (the same friend whose
coworker did the Ringo interview a few months ago). Here's what he replied
to me about the article: <<Pretty interesting. I work with a gay guy who's
a huge Beatles' fan. He pointed out to me that Lennon's "She's a Friend of
Dorothy" is a reference to gays (who identify with Dorothy in the Wizard of
Oz). Do you know the song? It's been widely bootlegged.>>
I don't know that song, but anyone who does can feel free to chime in and
move the discussion along <g>
- Rich
Bruce Mirken
Dorothy" is a very old code word that gay people used for each other, back
in the '40s or so.
Regarding lennonfan's post above, I don't think gay culture is any more
rigid than other segments of American culture (I don't know enough about
other countries to compare). We are a land that professes freedom but
largely practices conformity. In all groups there is a strain that
dominates, and those with different tastes may tend to keep quiet and just
do their own thing. I have a black friend who gets told he "acts white"
because he speaks standard english and prefers Mozart to rap. Of course,
he's also gay and gets told THAT is a "white thing." What silliness.
"Rich Diakun" <URDE...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
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lennon fan
vs. other cultures, I think at least as far as popular entertainment
goes, there are segments of society that have far more diversity....I
know places that have music that is all over the map, where you don't
have to listen to Leonard Cohen to be considered 'cool', they'd have
everything from Desi Arnaz to Pink Floyd on the juke....I find the gay
community to often be monolithic, a group where you don't -dare- say
you're conservative without getting an argument. Their music is often
horrendous, braindead idiocy that sceams at 130 (or more) beats per
minute, is airheaded by nature often, loaded with miserable escapist
drunks (at least in the bar culture).
While I realize that this exists in other cultures in America (which is
the sole area I'm addressing here), I find there to be far more
diversity and open-mindedness in places that are not sexuality-oriented
establishments. Your typical 'black' bar, 'country' bar or 'rock and
roll' bar can be every bit as rigid in it's monolithic thinking as gay
bars...but gay bars are hardly the open-minded, accepting and loving
places that the gay community would have people believe. I find, most
often, that they are incredibly stand-offish places loaded with
self-loathing and cliquish people in serious need of therapy. It's too
bad these 'bars' are the centerpiece of the gay social world. I think
through things like the internet and various outreach and specialty
groups, this is changing, but it's going to take time, and it's going to
take people that don't have mind-altering chemicals as their chief
crutch in order to be sociable.
To be a complete human being, IMO, is to accept POV's different from
your own without getting in a tizzy, accepting music that is varied and
unique even if you don't like it, and keeping vanity in check....all of
these things I find very lacking in so-called 'gay bar culture'. Groups
like the Beatles offered so many alternative ways of seeing yourself and
the world, and we would be wise to wake up to it. I still think many
have a long, long way to go.
regards from lennonfan
Vandelay Industries
> I think the rigidity of gay culture is an embarrassment,
Please.
I happen to know all straight men aren't all sitting on their couch with
their beer bellies watching football in their suburban home today.
I'm not going to make the same mistake you have.
:)
lennon fan
Re: Gay Beatles Fans
Group: rec.music.artists.paul-mccartney Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001, 1:46pm
(EDT+4) From: scottg...@worldnet.att.net (Vandelay Industries)
I think the mistake is -yours-.
I never said anything about 'all straight men' or 'all gay men'. I
pointed out that what passes for 'gay culture' is, indeed, an
embarrassment (at least as far as gay bars go). Fortunately, most gay
men don't participate in that sleazy, seedy disease-ridden atmosphere.
regards from lennonfan
Richard Zbras
"lennon fan" <lenn...@webtv.net> wrote in message
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Rich Diakun
particularly that of a specific artist's career. There was an article about
how one segment of the universal population perceived this music -- a very
well written and researched article, at that -- and the latest postings were
an extension of that very topical discussion. I have no point of view from
which to understand this different part of the American culture at large.
The great thing about the internet is that a diverse cross-section of the
populace can come together because of a common interest and discuss how this
common interest is manifested when seen through a different set of eyes. To
discuss how someone else perceives the music of McCartney (both with and
without the Beatles) is exactly the topicality that this newsgroup serves.
I am not so pompous as to think that everyone else thinks about the music
the same way that I do. I have come to appreciate that the people who are
regular posters in here are very intelligent people who have their own
opinions, are willing to discuss their ideas, are willing to let me discuss
my ideas, and that we might learn something from each other. A discussion
of how some people who are gay might perceive or relate to Beatles music is
incomplete without the foundational discussion of what exactly American gay
culture is, and in that incompleteness it would potentially lead to
misunderstanding based on ignorance. Post on. Goo goo g'joob!
- Rich
"Richard Zbras" <rzb...@optonline.net> wrote in message
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SWever
that likes to think of themselves as fashionable trendsetters they have
1) Blatant generalization
2) In extremely bad taste comparing gay culture with the Taliban.
Stefan
SWever
Yes you did. "I think the rigidity of gay culture is an embarrassment, for a
group
that likes to think of themselves as fashionable trendsetters they have
all the diversity of the Taliban." When you speak of "gay culture", you are
speaking of all gay people. When you use words like "they" you are including
the entire group. That's what "they" means.
" I pointed out that what passes for 'gay culture' is, indeed, an
embarrassment (at least as far as gay bars go).>>.lennonfan
You are now qualifying your earlier statement. But better late than never! ;)
Stefan
lennon fan
Re: Gay Beatles Fans
Group: rec.music.artists.paul-mccartney Date: Mon, Oct 8, 2001, 9:59am
(EDT+4) From: swe...@aol.com (SWever)
men'.>>lennonfan
Yes you did. "I think the rigidity of gay culture is an embarrassment,
for a
group
that likes to think of themselves as fashionable trendsetters they have
all the diversity of the Taliban." When you speak of "gay culture", you
are speaking of all gay people.
not true. Most people that are gay that I know want absolutely nothing
to do with 'gay culture'. Just because a person identifies themself as
homosexual or bisexual does not mean they are automatically included in
'gay culture'. Many homosexuals and bisexuals want nothing to do with
even being labeled 'gay' and find absolutely nothing in common with
'their' perceived 'culture' (discos, bars, etc. which are the heart of
this 'culture'.)
When you use words like "they" you are including the entire group.
That's what "they" means.
'they' only as in the 'they' of the self-identified members of the
'culture' I just spoke of.
Bruce Mirken
out. Lennonfan's ignorance and willingness to generalize based on painfully
little actual knowledge speaks for itself. Arguing with such a person is
like trying to teach ethics to a piranha.
Cheers,
Bruce Mirken
"SWever" <swe...@aol.com> wrote in message
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lennon fan
Re: Gay Beatles Fans
Group: rec.music.artists.paul-mccartney Date: Mon, Oct 8, 2001, 3:33pm
(EDT+4) From: sftr...@earthlink.net (Bruce Mirken)
opt out. Lennonfan's ignorance and willingness to generalize based on
painfully little actual knowledge speaks for itself.
What could you possibly know about my knowledge of the issue besides the
few paragraphs I've written here? I think you make a perfect example of
what I'm talking about. If I don't walk in lock step with your view
suddenly I'm ignorant and full of generalizations? What you fail to
realize in your obvious hatred of my opinions is that I have -far too
much- respect for gay and bi people to lump them into a 'culture' (which
means way of life, BTW) whether they wish to be part of that or not.
There are many, many gay beatles/macca fans. You'd never know it from
what you get from the 'culture' I spoke of, namely gay bars and discos,
again, which are the heart of that 'culture'. That is not a
generalization, that's a -fact-.
Arguing with such a person is like trying to teach ethics to a piranha.
while hitting and running are, well, you know, -cowardly-.
-regards from lennonfan
Cheers,
Bruce Mirken
mark
find the 'scene' of clubs and discos boring and superficial.
Sexual orientation isn't that big a deal, I can never understand why some
gay people feel the need to dress, act, in a particular way.
I'm 27 and have been 'on the scene' only a few times, without exception the
music was crap and the people tended to fall into two camps(lol) self
pitying or loud and irritating.
The music was utter crap, either cheesy disco or Karaoke renditions of Stand
By Your Man.
But gay/straight the club culture exists, some people just have bad taste,
maybe peer pressure has something to do with it.
I never understand when people talk of gay 'pride', sexuality isn't
something to be proud or ashamed over to me.
If anyone asked me to describe myself, I'd say I was a musician and
songwriter, being gay is irrelevant.And as for culture, I never heard
Macca/Beatles/Dylan/Costello/Sinatra in a gay bar.
All of these artists are important to me because I draw inspiratrion from
and identify with their music, as a man who happens to be gay, not as a gay
man.
Hope that makes sense.Peace.
lennon fan <lenn...@webtv.net> wrote in message
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lennon fan
Re: Gay Beatles Fans
Group: rec.music.artists.paul-mccartney Date: Mon, Oct 8, 2001, 9:55am
(EDT+4) From: swe...@aol.com (SWever)
that likes to think of themselves as fashionable trendsetters they have
all the diversity of the Taliban.>>lennonfan
1) Blatant generalization
but a very apt one.....so please, prove me wrong. Name me just 3 gay
bars/discos (out of thousands) in the U.S.A. that regularly feature
Beatles/Macca music on their sound systems.
2) In extremely bad taste comparing gay culture with the Taliban.
It wasn't supposed to be complementary. It was a pointed barb with a
purpose, which was to show my disdain of said 'culture'. Occasional
non-alke drinker aside, I don't happen to happen to think that a shared
fondness for alcohol is a great basis for establishing a long-lasting
personal relationship. Do you?
-regards from lennonfan
Stefan
lennon fan
Re: Gay Beatles Fans
Group: rec.music.artists.paul-mccartney Date: Mon, Oct 8, 2001, 7:19pm
(EDT+5) From: a...@chester19.freeserve.co.uk (mark)
and find the 'scene' of clubs and discos boring and superficial. Sexual
orientation isn't that big a deal, I can never understand why some gay
people feel the need to dress, act, in a particular way. I'm 27 and have
been 'on the scene' only a few times, without exception the music was
crap and the people tended to fall into two camps(lol) self pitying or
loud and irritating.
The music was utter crap, either cheesy disco or Karaoke renditions of
Stand By Your Man.
But gay/straight the club culture exists, some people just have bad
taste, maybe peer pressure has something to do with it. I never
understand when people talk of gay 'pride', sexuality isn't something to
be proud or ashamed over to me.
If anyone asked me to describe myself, I'd say I was a musician and
songwriter, being gay is irrelevant.And as for culture, I never heard
Macca/Beatles/Dylan/Costello/Sinatra in a gay bar. All of these artists
are important to me because I draw inspiratrion from and identify with
their music, as a man who happens to be gay, not as a gay man.
Hope that makes sense.Peace.
wow! A man after my own heart! Thank you. That was -very- well said. I
completely agree with your sentiments. No straight person I know, when
asked to describe themselves, would say: 'well, I'm straight, I'm
right-handed, etc. etc.' people I know define themselves by their
interests/work and their families (and both straight and gay people DO
have families;))
Now, since you are a musician and songwriter, I'll help introduce you to
people you need to seek out and listen to;
Billie Holiday (try Lady In Satin, Commodore Recordings, and the new 2
cd set from Columbia about to be released that's condensed from the 10
cd box just released, plus the Decca stuff.)
Yma Sumac - Voice of the Xtabay and The Ultimate yma sumac collection
are essential inspiring pieces you absolutely need.
Janis Joplin - Cheap Thrills (Big Brother and The Holding Co.) and Pearl
all of these are great if you like psychedelia:
Rolling Stones Satanic Majesties Request
Pink Floyd-Atom Heart Mother, Wish You Were Here, Piper at The Gates Of
Dawn
Jefferson Airplane-After Bathing At Baxters.
This is a primer, as I'm assuming you're familiar with most of the
beatles/macca stuff. Some of these may be a difficult listen at first,
but stick with it, they offer enduring rewards.
regards from lennonfan
SWever
suddenly I'm ignorant and full of generalizations? What you fail to
realize in your obvious hatred of my opinions is that I have -far too
Your initial post was a blatant generalization. You cannot squirm your way out
of that. You yourself spoke of a "gay culture", thereby lumping them into one.
You can backtrack all you want, however your first post was not a good one.
Stefan
SWever
lennonfan's first post said nothing about the bar scene. It was directed at
ALL gay culture.
Stefan
SWever
I agree with you regarding the whole bar scene, although that can be applied to
straight culture also. Your backtracking on your original statement could not
be any more blatant than the generalization with which you first began. You
now seem to identify "gay culture" with the bar scene. Make up your mind, or
at least apologize for implying that "gay culture" is nothing more than the
sleazy bar scene which we find people with every type of sexual preferance
flocking to.
Stefan
lennon fan
Re: Gay Beatles Fans
Group: rec.music.artists.paul-mccartney Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2001, 6:24am
(EDT+4) From: swe...@aol.com (SWever)
NO, it was not. RE-read this thread from the beginning. The subject was
beatles/macca fans and their music as played in -gay bars/clubs-.
That was the issue I was addressing.
-lennonfan
lennon fan
Re: Gay Beatles Fans
Group: rec.music.artists.paul-mccartney Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2001, 6:22am
(EDT+4) From: swe...@aol.com (SWever)
full of generalizations? What you fail to realize in your obvious hatred
of my opinions is that I have -far too much- respect for gay and bi
people to lump them into a 'culture' >>lennonfan
Your initial post was a blatant generalization. You cannot squirm your
way out of that. You yourself spoke of a "gay culture", thereby lumping
them into one.
wrong, wrong WRONG. You are doing the 'lumping' here.
You can backtrack all you want, however your first post was not a
good one.
I thought it was excellent. I'm not backtracking at all. -You- are the
one taking things out of context, and turning my statements into broad
generalizations that were simply not made, or intended.
Stefan
lennon fan
Re: Gay Beatles Fans
Group: rec.music.artists.paul-mccartney Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2001, 6:29am
(EDT+4) From: swe...@aol.com (SWever)
You convieniently ignored the other parts of my posts, from the
beginning. I'd apologize if I felt I truly had said something wrong. I
totally disagree with you that my statements re: gay culture means
-every- gay person. It doesn't. Again, for the 3rd time, the heart and
soul of -gay culture- is the bar/disco scene. In time that may change,
but for many years that has been the case. I think -you- should
apologize for lumping every homosexual and bisexual person into the
category of -gay culture-. The word -culture- means 'way of life'. A
person's individual sexuality is -not- a 'way of life' it has no more to
do with any 'culture' than being left handed means you are part a 'left
handed culture'....the 'culture' comes into play when a 'group' gathers
around a cause and forms an 'group' identity from it.
I simply wasn't wrong in this instance, -you- were.
-regards from lennonfan