Focus on the Family Article
Boofer
Belt Style" (June '00 Citizen)
by Glenn T. Stanton?
http://www.family.org/cforum/citizenmag/coverstory/a0011624.html
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
SnowByrd25
Lots to chew on.
Snowbyrd
nukef...@my-deja.com
politics but so unpolitical. In a world of "show me the money" and
lobbying and pay offs this man and his organization are unafraid to
tackle any issue. Dr. Dobson will stand for the truth of GOd's Word if
he is the last one standing there and he hasn't a penny to his name.
Even before I read this article I was going through the list of
different CCM artists I have listened to over time and realized I knew
of quite a few divorced couples in Nashvegas/Jesus Junk Hollywood.
The only ones I know that are married:
the Omartians
the Taffs
the Stonehills
Twila Paris
Michael W Smith and Deborah D
Ashley Cleveland and Kenny Greenburg (sp)
(Note that the above are NOT together cuz they have just had a ball of
it--I believe I have read that all of them have struggled alot on some
level due to stress within or without the marriage which isn't unique,
it's par for the course)
Divorced:
Chapmans
Susan Ashton and JD Cunningham
Bob Bennett
Sheila Walsh
Michael English
Leon Patillo
Sandi Patty
Chris Eaton
Looks like 6:7, but I am limited in my knowledge (surprise surprise)--
can anyone add to the list?
Single is looking real good, Maggie B!!!
Shellie
and
Kazoosmom
should throw this magazine in his face.
Must be nice to as "perfect" as he is. What a nut job!
Ally
Tommy Battles
I'm curious... are you speaking from experience (having read other Stanton
articles) or are you just judging based on this article? I'm not familiar with
his other work, and if it's that bad I don't want to waste my time on it.
Tommy
fai...@my-deja.com
about the methodology used to gather those statistics
....but still uses them to support his argument!
This is merely what they call "anecdotal" evidence,
but i started going to a conservative evangelical church
*after* my divorce. And there were others in the same
situation. A lot of us were attracted to what traditional
Christianity had to offer...*because* the life we'd led
*before* had led us into a very unhappy life. When he
mentions that the survey(?) didn't ask whether these divorced
people had been conservative Christians *before* their
divorces, well... that's pretty important info.
Can't find any stats on this....but i've heard that
evangelical, and fundamentalist, and charismatic
denominations are among the fastest growing in the US.
Um...doesn't that mean that, if you survey the
congregants....a substantial portion of the people
you're surveying weren't into that type of religion, say,
5 years before? Therefore, a lot of those divorces would
have been part of the "general population" statistics **at
the time that they actually occurred**? Not part of the
"born again Christian" stats?
The article ALSO does not take into account that some
divorced people are the innocent parties. i hung out
with 2 other women. We'd all been left by our husbands.
Not that anybody ever surveyed that church, not while i
was there, anyway...but if they had, there we would have
been....3 more check-marks in the "divorced" column.
Yet not one of the 3 of us wanted divorce, or failed to
take our marital commitments seriously.
--
Ruth
TCotCSig #108
(a woman who's lousy at math, but pretty good at logic!)
"The sea refuses no river" -Pete Townshend
In article <8i6uc4$24c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Boofer <web-...@excite.com> wrote:
> Has anyone read the recent (June '00 Citizen) article, "Divorce:
Bible-
> Belt Style" (June '00 Citizen)
> by Glenn T. Stanton?
> http://www.family.org/cforum/citizenmag/coverstory/a0011624.html
>
lillith99
having server difficulties when I went to post so I thought that
the first attempt didnt make it - sorry for a repeat post!
Lillith99!
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Randy and Melissa Lee
coherent and well-thought out. I stand applauding. Perhaps there would be
less divorce in the church if as children and young adults we were taught
what marriage is really all about. Instead, we make a decision to marry
when we're caught up in the emotion of love and cloud 9. Perhaps we would
make wiser choices for mates and understand how to stick it out in marriage
if it was something we were taught early on.
Melissa
Boofer <web-...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:8i6uc4$24c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
c.b.
God hates Divorce.
People marry too young and choose soley on their emotions
People have lost sight of the value of the covenant
Amy's counselors were incorrect with their counsel
The heart is deceitful
Newt (oh my......)
Marriage...."I do"..should be honored by all
Marriage is a mighty representation of Christ and His church....should be
honored by all.
nothing wrong with Truth.
c.b.
Boofer <web-...@excite.com> wrote in article
<8i6uc4$24c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
73115...@compuserve.com
>I for one am so proud of Dr. Dobson and FOTF for being so involved in
>politics but so unpolitical. In a world of "show me the money" and
>lobbying and pay offs this man and his organization are unafraid to
>tackle any issue. Dr. Dobson will stand for the truth of GOd's Word if
>he is the last one standing there and he hasn't a penny to his name.
I stopped supporting Dr. Dobson a number of years ago when he had FotF support
the east coast doctor (Fromisch?) that accused her husband of abusing their
daughter as a means of getting sole custody in a divorce case. When the court
ruled against her, she ran off to New Zeeland with the daughter to prevent the
husband from having visitation. A couple of years back the mother tried to get a
friendly congress person to write a special law so that they could return to the
US and not be prosecuted.
I had done a considerable amount of research at the time and found no evidence
(other than the mother's word - which is not evidence) that any abuse occurred.
In a situation where the mother had made it clear what her motivation was, the
belated accusation of molestation was very suspect.
While I think Dr. Dobson has a very strong theological basis to what he says and
generally agree with him on biblical interpretation, he clearly comes up short
when it comes to Solomonic divination.
Ann Michaloski
> >Seems to me, all they did was quote what Amy Grant stated herself in
> the
> >interview with CCM.
>
> The POINT is that no none on the outside knows WHY she said what she
> said.
>
Why can't it simple be because that is what she meant?
Arald
She is just one of the very few really good artists.
When looking at personal lives and lifestyles most CCM artists are just
as bad as most pop and country stars. At least that is the impression I
have. Someone once commented us on how we let the kids listen to the
Spice Girls and such while they have such bad reputation but what is the
real difference with artists like Amy and Susan Ashton and others? The
later may have sung about God but didn't live their lives in a Christian
way.
Recently there was a pretty good article in worldmag about the double
standards in CCM. I think you can still find it in the archives if you
want. I think they are at www.worldmag.com or so.
We will go offline for a bit soon but how about a quick survey...
What do you all listen to these days?
I have Maggie B, the Eagels, Doe Maar (Dutch), the Talking Heads (they
re-released the Stop Making Sense movie on DVD and it's Brilliant) and
lot's of modern stuff the kids like to dance to (S Club 7, Jennifer
Lopez, Backstreet Boys etc etc)
Take care,
Arald
>
> Shellie
>
> and
JenniRoa
real difference with artists like Amy and Susan Ashton and others?<<
What is wrong with Susan Ashton?
Jenni
katy...@my-deja.com
"c.b." <cat...@vvm.com> wrote:
>
> God hates Divorce.
> People marry too young and choose soley on their emotions
> People have lost sight of the value of the covenant
> Amy's counselors were incorrect with their counsel
> The heart is deceitful
> Newt (oh my......)
> Marriage...."I do"..should be honored by all
> Marriage is a mighty representation of Christ and His
church....should be
> honored by all.
>
> nothing wrong with Truth.
> c.b.
I agree - there is nothing wrong with the truth and I believe that
what is written above is true.
However, the author missed an IMPORTANT
point from a recent Christianity Today article, i.e. that according
to Amy's former pastor, the Chapman divorce was BIBLICAL.
We may never know who "messed up" (and frankly, I don't care at this
point), but for heaven's sake,
before these Bible thumpers decide they are going to chastise someone
who lives
in the public eye, the least they could do is adequately research the
situation so someone like me doesn't have to throw their own tunnel
vision back into their faces.
Katy
jsher...@my-deja.com
katy...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> However, the author missed an IMPORTANT
> point from a recent Christianity Today article, i.e. that according
> to Amy's former pastor, the Chapman divorce was BIBLICAL.
>
The only biblical grounds for divorce is adultery. Both Amy and Gary
denied that any adultery took place. Go figure.
Arald
She could not keep her commitment as well.... Don't know much about her
though....
Arald
Maggie Smolkovich
wrote re: Susan Ashton:
<< She could not keep her commitment as well >>
This really galls me! So, Amy and Susan, too, are the sole ones who are
responsible for 100% of the marriage, even tho there are husbands that
took wedding vows, too? Give me a break. No info has even been given
on Susan's divorce, and it's
noone's business, but somehow, it is assumed, once again, that SHE is a
brazen hussy for being divorced. I'm sorry but I don't buy the theory
that because Amy or Susan, or anyone for that matter, dosen't give you a
blow by blow report on what happened behind closed doors, that they MUST
have forsaken their vows. Maybe they are just acting like true
Christians women and taking the higher ground, knowing in their hearts
what the real truth is, and that the only person they have to answer to
is God, not some fans who take the words of Gary Chapman and Janis Gill
as the only truth.....cuz it sure ain't, believe me.
Maggie
For Vince fans check out:
http://community.webtv.net/Vincepix/VINCEGILLHEREAND
For Grand Ole Opry fans check out:
http://community.webtv.net/TNMAGGIESMOKE/GrandOleOpryNights
For Other Nashville Events check out:
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For pics of the Chet Atkins Musician Days concert check out:
"http://community.webtv.net/MoreVince/MoreVinceStuff2000"
web-rover
<73115...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
<snipped>:
>
> While I think Dr. Dobson has a very strong theological basis to what he
says and
> generally agree with him on biblical interpretation, he clearly comes up
short
> when it comes to Solomonic divination.
"Solomonic divination"? Could you explain what you're referring to here,
please?
--
Boofer
**********************************************
" . . .Faithless heart, you tempt me to the core/ But you can't
have a hold on me/ So don't come around anymore . . ."
-- Amy Grant
**********************************************
Amy E. Kelly
you ever hear Amy DENY that? No, you haven't. Gary Chapman and Janis Gill's
word "ain't the truth", huh? Wow, just keep those blinds down, and you won't
see Amy and Vince for what their spouses have TOLD US they are!
--
Amy E. Kelly
akel...@hotmail.com
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/kakelly/amy
"Life is either a daring adventure or nothing. To keep our faces toward
change and
behave like free spirits in the presence of fate is strength undefeatable."
- Helen Keller
Let Us Have Faith (1940)
"Maggie Smolkovich" <TNMAGG...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:28243-39...@storefull-281.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
73115...@compuserve.com
><73115...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
><snipped>:
>>
>> While I think Dr. Dobson has a very strong theological basis to what he
>says and
>> generally agree with him on biblical interpretation, he clearly comes up
>short
>> when it comes to Solomonic divination.
>
>"Solomonic divination"? Could you explain what you're referring to here,
>please?
Sure. The Bible states that King Solomon was presented with two women, both who
claimed to be a child's mother. There apparently no way to tell who was telling
the truth. Solomon had been given the divine gift of wisdom by God. According to
the Bible, far beyond that of any other person of that time. Solomon suggested
that the baby be split into half, with each woman given half. One woman agreed,
the other was aghast and refused such an action. Solomon correctly determined
that the true mother would never agree to such terms and awarded custody of the
baby accordingly.
Hence, I coined the term Solomonic divination.
About 15 years ago, a Dr. Morgan and Dr Foretich were going through a divorce.
It was a bitter, unfriendly divorce and not clear that either party was a
Christian. Two years into the proceedings, when it became apparent that Dr
Morgan was not going to get sole custody of her daughter Hillary, Dr. Morgan
suddenly claimed that Dr Foretich had been abusing Hillary for a number of years
previously and was therefor unfit to have partial custody.
The court took a long time to investigate this claim, found it to be suspect and
awarded joint custody to both parents. (The court also found that Hillary's
testimony was extremely suspect and likely the result of coaching.) Dr. Morgan
sent her daughter out of the country and refused to reveal where Hillary was. Dr
Morgan was found to be in contempt and jailed. After several years, Dr. Morgan
had a friendly congress person amend an unrelated bill, limiting the amount of
time one could be jailed for contempt. (Such actions by congress when they
clearly apply to one person, are called a bill of attainment and are illegal.
Unfortunately, they are not uncommon, but are usually used to give specific
companies tax breaks.)
It was about this time that Dr. Dobson and his FotF organization came out in
support of Dr. Morgan and the amendment. The amendment passed, Dr Morgan was
freed and and as had been predicted, fled the country to avoid additional
sanctions by the court. Later it was revealed that she joined her daughter who
had been living with Dr Morgan's parents in New Zealand.
I don't know who (Dr Morgan or Dr Foretich) was telling the truth. Neither
strike me as being people of character and I have seen no evidence that either
consider themselves Christian. To date, there has been no evidence supporting Dr
Morgan's claim of abuse. I do see a great tragedy.
Whatever Dr. Dobson believed personally about this case, he should not have used
FotF as a platform to support one party in a case where due process had been
followed and the was no clear evidence that justice was not being served. There
was no biblical principle at stake here, just two people using their daughter as
a bargining chip in an ugly divorce.
========
To close the story of Dr Morgan, Dr Foretich and Hillary:
About three years ago, Dr Morgan stated that she needed medical treatment for an
undisclosed illness that could only be found in the US. Since she had illegally
fled the US some 10 years previously, she could have been arrested upon her
return. Once again, Dr Morgan found a sympathetic member of congress to pass a
bill that removed the court's authority to pursue the case. She and Hillary (now
named Ellen) are living in the US.
Dr Foretich stated that he will no longer attempt any measures to have the joint
custody decree enforced.
Brian Fleischman
the exact quote and maybe even a pointer to the article. Thanks. Even
so, biblical divorce sounds pretty strange, doesn't it?
-Brian
katy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> "c.b." <cat...@vvm.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > God hates Divorce.
> > People marry too young and choose soley on their emotions
> > People have lost sight of the value of the covenant
> > Amy's counselors were incorrect with their counsel
> > The heart is deceitful
> > Newt (oh my......)
> > Marriage...."I do"..should be honored by all
> > Marriage is a mighty representation of Christ and His
> church....should be
> > honored by all.
> >
> > nothing wrong with Truth.
> > c.b.
>
> I agree - there is nothing wrong with the truth and I believe that
> what is written above is true.
>
> However, the author missed an IMPORTANT
> point from a recent Christianity Today article, i.e. that according
> to Amy's former pastor, the Chapman divorce was BIBLICAL.
>
> We may never know who "messed up" (and frankly, I don't care at this
> point), but for heaven's sake,
> before these Bible thumpers decide they are going to chastise someone
> who lives
> in the public eye, the least they could do is adequately research the
> situation so someone like me doesn't have to throw their own tunnel
> vision back into their faces.
>
> Katy
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
Brian Fleischman email: brianfl...@home.com
farm...@my-deja.com
TNMAGG...@webtv.net (Maggie Smolkovich) wrote:
> the only person they have to answer to
> is God, not some fans who take the words of Gary Chapman and Janis
> Gill as the only truth.....cuz it sure ain't, believe me.
>
> Maggie
>
And just how would you happen to know this? Just because you've had
your picture taken with Vince and Amy doesn't mean that you have the
inside track on the truth.
katy...@my-deja.com
jsher...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8iatvj$as$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> katy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> >
>
> > point from a recent Christianity Today article, i.e. that according
> > to Amy's former pastor, the Chapman divorce was BIBLICAL.
> >
>
> denied that any adultery took place. Go figure.
Amy denied that adultery took place in the CCM article. Where did Gary
do the same?
I don't see where the pastor had any reason to lie although it was
in bad taste for him to comment on a private matter concerning members
of his congregation.
Katy
Valisa
and Amy doesn't mean that you have the >inside track on the truth.
>
that just because one HAS had ones photo made with an artist, they were
rendered deaf, dumb and blind. In this particular situation, I have observed
that it is those who don't know Jack who are doing all the talking, and those
who really do know, understand that keeping confidences and trust are worth far
more than the opportunity to shut someone's mouth.
Valisa
Amy E. Kelly
> Amy denied that adultery took place in the CCM article. Where did Gary
> do the same?
Probably not. But I will rely on peoples' ability to do the math".
I think that speaks volumes. They were fooling around for those "last 6
years" that had been so hard on Gary, watching Amy mess around with Gary.
Amy E. Kelly
"Amy E. Kelly" <akel...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:LdM25.52544$Ft1.2...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
Oops. Obviously, I meant Vince.
Alicia
Bannister, I believe.
Alicia
alicia...@mac.com
In Jesus is life, and that life is the light of all people.
----------
In article <8i8b6n$2td$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, nukef...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I for one am so proud of Dr. Dobson and FOTF for being so involved in
> politics but so unpolitical. In a world of "show me the money" and
> lobbying and pay offs this man and his organization are unafraid to
> tackle any issue. Dr. Dobson will stand for the truth of GOd's Word if
> he is the last one standing there and he hasn't a penny to his name.
>
> Single is looking real good, Maggie B!!!
>
> Shellie
>
>
>
>
> and
Alicia
the difference between fornication and adultery? Doesn't fornication
involve sex before marriage?
Alicia
alicia...@mac.com
In Jesus is life and that life is the light of all people?
web-rover
In Biblical times, Judaic marriage customs were different than they are in
today's contemporary society. The footnote for Matt. 1:18 in my (NKJV)
Bible reads, " 'Betrothed' means 'engaged,' but the meaning of the word in
Jesus' day goes beyond our own. Jewish law looked upon engagement, which
lasted one year in Galilee, as a formal bond that could be dissolved only by
divorce (Deut. 22:23, 24). Hence, Joseph is called Mary's husband in v. 19
(cf. Gen. 29:21), though the marriage had not been consummated through
sexual intimacy (vv. 18b, 25)."
It is also my understanding that this "betrothal" (engagement) was also a
time of mutual individual preparation for marriage, similar to what it is
today. However, comparing the above narrative with the later Scriptural
prohibitions against married persons divorcing and remarrying (Matt. 5:32;
Mark 10:1-12; 1 Cor. 7:10-11, etc.), I suspect this is the concept of
"engagement" that most closely reflects God's definition and purpose for the
marriage relationship, rather than our modern-day informal arrangement. It
makes much more sense, in the light of these passages.
It is for this seeming lack of consistency that I personally question the
"adultery-as-Biblical-grounds-for-divorce" premise. In some modern Bible
versions, "fornication" has been retranslated "sexual immorality"; but they
are not (as you observed) one and the same thing. Even if there is such
grounds for divorce after marriage (i.e, not just "betrothal"), with the
weight of Scripture being against divorce (as one RMAAG poster aptly put it
a few months ago), it would not necessarily grant the right to remarry.
My husband and I have a good solid relationship, but even if we did not,
I know I would never feel at liberty to do what Amy Grant (and some others)
have done. Two books I would recommend for more in-depth analysis of modern
courtship customs from a Biblical/Christian perspective are, "Dating With
Integrity: Honoring Christ in Your Relationships With the Opposite Sex" by
John Holzmann (Word Publishing), and "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" by Joshua
Harris (Multnomah).
Respectfully,
Boofer
Alicia <alic...@iname.com> wrote in message
news:8igra8$pfj$1...@slb1.atl.mindspring.net...