Counting Salsa 123, 567 vs 123, 456.......
SALSA DANZ
universally accepted counts
123, 567 (counting the music)
instead of the previous counts 123, 456 (counting the footstep pattern)
For a copy of the latest re-mastered and newly edited version of Josie Neglia's
Dance Hot Salsa Videos 1&2, visit
www.LatinDance.com
** they will be available on DVD and CD ROM by early May, 2001.
MS
"SALSA DANZ" <sals...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010329030643...@ng-mq1.aol.com...
> Josie Neglia is re-mastering Dance Hot Salsa Videos 1&2 to now have the
more
> universally accepted counts
> 123, 567 (counting the music)
> instead of the previous counts 123, 456 (counting the footstep pattern)
Most dance classes I've been to use 123,456. Most non-musicians don't
understand why 123,567.
Jacira
MS <m...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:tdni0b3...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "SALSA DANZ" <sals...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20010329030643...@ng-mq1.aol.com...
> > Josie Neglia is re-mastering Dance Hot Salsa Videos 1&2 to now have the
> more
> > universally accepted counts
> > 123, 567 (counting the music)
> > instead of the previous counts 123, 456 (counting the footstep pattern)
>
> Most dance classes I've been to use 123,456. Most non-musicians don't
> understand why 123,567.
OK, let me (a dancer) explain: If you dance "on the one", there is a pause
on 4 and 8. I should point out, however, that this crazy 123, 567 way of
counting is NEVER used in Miami or Cuba... we all count 123, 456, and for
beginners to mark the pause we will say: 123 AND, 456 AND
The other way (123,567) stems from Ballroom or LA style... nada que ver con
nosotros o la raíz del baile! ...and don't even get me started on the
marking on "2" invention from NY Mambo!
Jacira
pablo
"Jacira" <jac...@salsapower.com> wrote in message
news:tP8D6.588$jd4.3...@news2.mia...
>
> ... we all count 123, 456, and for
> beginners to mark the pause we will say: 123 AND, 456 AND
"Pause"? There's no pause. It's a little on-the-spot step, or shuffle, or
something. It's only a pause if you're over 60. My Uncle will do that - he
just goes for a snap of the finger, and ever so slightly moves his knee. He
claims once I turn 40 he'll start teaching me the salsa steps for the Old
Man.
...pablo
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
up with different dance steps for new rhythms but not OK for NYC (and other
US cities) to come up with different dance steps for the same new rhythms?
Similarly for rhythmic patterns such as reversing the drum part for the
segundo in rumba to play against the clave, if it had been done first in NYC
would everyone say it was wrong?
I guess that one should complain that if the Cubans came up with different
steps for the mashed potatos, the stroll, or other dance steps, etc., (I do
not know any of them but I have heard a few names) then the Cubans would
simply be wrong?
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. http://dmreed.com/Santería-Ifá-Yoruba.htm is a
new page in progress. http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.
pablo
"Dennis M. Reed "Califa"" <dmr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:iE7F6.49944$EN.16...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> I am curious even though I am not a dancer, why is it OK for Cubans to
come
> up with different dance steps for new rhythms but not OK for NYC (and
other
> US cities) to come up with different dance steps for the same new rhythms?
It is perfectly OK for everybody to come up with new dance steps. Every
dancer that prides himself/herself on being good will come up with steps
that deviate from the basic textbook stuff. When I dance with my sisters or
mother, I don't think we do a single basic salsa step. It's all little
family choreographies that we've put together over the years. It's the US
latin dance scene that is rigid to the point of being utterly Un-Latin, in
my honest opinion. This ain't waltz. In fact, if you go to clubs in Latin
America, you'll see that new dances come up every 3 months. Last year, the
"salsa boogaloo" was the rage in Colombia. This year, they have the
"merenbreak hop" and the "latin break". New steps come up all the time. It
is impossible to keep up, really. I still can't do the "boogaloo" all that
well, and get lost halfway into it, because I had to travel back the next
day.
Whoever claims there is just *one* correct way to dance something is just
full of hot air, really. I find it very funny when, in the US, you dance
with a new partner, and you try something that is not textbook and they are
so out of water that they can't even listen to the music and feel the beat
anymore, utterly falling apart, and you just settle back into a totally
boring basic shuffle step and occasional quarter turn, wait for the end of
the song and dump 'em.
And, as to counting... who the hell counts, anyway? Hands up? I've no idea
why it would matter to count to 8, and skip or not skip anything. When I
teach friends to Latin dance at house parties, all I have people count is up
to 4 for the first 5 minutes, then they forget all about it as they settle
into the groove. If you just listen to the beat, it does all the counting
you need.
> Similarly for rhythmic patterns such as reversing the drum part for the
> segundo in rumba to play against the clave, if it had been done first in
NYC
> would everyone say it was wrong?
Who said it, anyway? By that logic, Afrolatin beats would not even exist,
for different elements aren't supposed to mix and evolve, but rather to stay
the same static and stale same.
...pablo
Jacira
Chris Smalt <sm...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message
news:B70AB838...@i1359.vwr.wanadoo.nl...
>
>
>
>
>
> Jacira wrote:
>
> >I should point out, however, that this crazy 123, 567 way of
> >counting is NEVER used in Miami or Cuba... we all count 123, 456
>
of
> the teachers from Miami or Cuba that I've seen used 123, 456. In my
> experience, Cuban teachers usually don't count individual steps. They
will
> count bars if the choreography requires this. If need be, they'll count
> 123, 123, or 123 y 123 y etc., because 567(8) doesn't work so well in
> Spanish.
> (Actually, the jazz dance custom of counting two bars as 12345678 makes
> sense in Latin music, because it encompasses an entire basic step, taking
> clave into account on the way.
> )
>
> >nada que ver con nosotros o la ra'z del baile! ...and don't even get me
> >started on the marking on "2" invention from NY Mambo!
>
> But then, once more I have no idea who "nosotros" are.
>
>
> Chris
Hi Chris,
Well, I have taught with Salsa-Casino Dance Studios, helped start
Salsa-Connection Dance Studios, and had my own, Absolute Salsa Dance
Studios, until I entered graduate school last year, when I closed it. I
have visited most all of the schools in Miami and Ft. Lauderdale area over
the years, before when I worked for that other Salsa web site, and with my
own, SalsaPower, and virtually ALL of the casineros count: "1,2,3,- 4,5,6",
either in English or in Spanish. As a matter of fact, the Cubans I learned
with in Chile also counted this way. Only those who come from the NY Mambo
tradition or LA or ballroom tradition and happen to be transplanted to South
Florida, count differently. I guess it's a matter of when in Rome, do as
the romans. When I went to teach several workshops in Colorado last summer,
they looked at me a bit strange when I counted this way, so I'm sure it
varies from place to place. Those of us who have a musical background (I
studied opera - Canto Lírico - in Florence, Italy) know that there are 8
beats, but as long as the dancers are marking on the beat, who cares how you
count?
Hopefully this answers your question.
Jacira
pablo
>
> ... fact is that none of
> > the teachers from Miami or Cuba that I've seen used 123, 456.
That's about the most un-intuitive way to count salsa I can imagine. Those
"teachers" ought to be boo'd out of the room.
...pablo
Maria elendez M.D.
the band "Sabor de Cuba"?
"pablo" <pa...@samerica.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:0GfF6.215$EF4.3...@news.pacbell.net...
Santa Salsera
background and not a dance-training one. I've come to the conclusion that it is
inherently no more silly to count 123-456; either way is arbitrary, it just
depends on whether one is marking the dance phrase, or the musical phrase.
-Santa Salsera
MS
> nosotros o la raíz del baile! ...and don't even get me started on the
> marking on "2" invention from NY Mambo!
> Jacira
Jacira,
When I took dance classes in Cuba, they said that traditional son was danced
"contratiempo". From their description and demonstration of that, it
certainly looks like "on two", where the first step of the dance pattern
coincides with the second beat of the measure, which, in 2-3 clave, also
coincides with the first clave stroke.
The modern Cuban "Casino" dancing, however, starts on one.
So, I don't think that "on two" dancing is a New York invention. However, I
think many people talk here about dancing "on two", who don't really know
what they are talking about. I've heard people talk about dancing "on two",
but if one watches their feet, one sees the pattern starting on one or
three. It seems most non-musicians are not aware of what beat of the measure
they are on, and starting on one or three is more intuitive than two or
four.
MS
"Dennis M. Reed "Califa"" <dmr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:iE7F6.49944$EN.16...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
> I guess that one should complain that if the Cubans came up with different
> steps for the mashed potatos, the stroll, or other dance steps, etc., (I
do
> not know any of them but I have heard a few names) then the Cubans would
> simply be wrong?
Good point. How about the "locomotion"? The "watusi"? (I don't know any of
these either, just the names from childhood.)
The fact is, though, the Cubans seem to be the best dancers in the world,
from what I've seen.
MS
> varies from place to place. Those of us who have a musical background (I
> studied opera - Canto Lírico - in Florence, Italy) know that there are 8
> beats, but as long as the dancers are marking on the beat, who cares how
you
> count?
That's true. Musicians know about the eight beats in the pattern, but the
123, 567 counting is confusing to dancers.
Klaus Gerhardt
Hi,
the counting makes sense in some aspects.
One reason to count 123-456 (or 567) is that human
beings have 2 feet. So you always know on which foot you
should be. What looks a bit funny in the first place makes
sense when dancing complex spins.
Another reason for a teacher to count is when explaining
complex spins. (At least for me) they are easier to remember
when broken down into couples of 123-456 than into rows of
123-123-123-123.
To count 123-567 makes sense if you dance more than two
styles in salsa, different but somehow similar dances etc..
For example if you dance salsa sometimes on 1, sometimes on
2, then you have to count musically exact, or you may be lost,
at least when you dance the style you are not that accustomed to.
It's the same for dances like cha cha cha or rumba (bolero) which
you can dance a tiempo and contra tiempo.
Once I had some salsa classes with a school for ballroom dancing.
They teached salsa on 3. I was accustomed to salsa on 1. So I had
to count 1-34 (or sometimes 1-34,5-78) to prevent me from slipping
back into my old 123 rythm.
The cuban teacher I had the last two years is a bit lazy about
counting. He counts 123, in german ;-) of course because he is
teaching in germany.
Harry
Alejandro R. Mosteo
> Once I had some salsa classes with a school for ballroom dancing.
> They teached salsa on 3. I was accustomed to salsa on 1. So I had
> to count 1-34 (or sometimes 1-34,5-78) to prevent me from slipping
> back into my old 123 rythm.
It's so unusual to dance on 3? I've seen Cuban people here in Spain
dancing always on 3.
Others, casino dancers, do it always on 1.
Any thoughts?
-----------------------------
Alejandro R. Mosteo
mailto: 402...@cepsz.unizar.es
------------------------------
Klaus Gerhardt
<mar...@primelink1.net> wrote:
>Is there a Cuban salsa dance called "rueda"?
Rueda (de Casino) is Cuban style salsa danced in a group, in a circle.
One of the dancers, called "el cantante" gives the commands for the
spins + figures, danced by all couples simultaneously. Within lots of
the figures you change the dance partner.
Harry
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. http://dmreed.com/Santería-Ifá-Yoruba.htm is a
new page in progress. http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.
"Klaus Gerhardt" <k-ger...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:3af1bedc...@news.btx.dtag.de...
> >> "teachers" ought to be boo'd reedof the room.
> >>
> >> ...pablo
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
Klaus Gerhardt
<402...@cepsz.unizar.es> wrote:
>Klaus Gerhardt ha escrito esto previamente:
>> Once I had some salsa classes with a school for ballroom dancing.
>> They teached salsa on 3. I was accustomed to salsa on 1. So I had
>> to count 1-34 (or sometimes 1-34,5-78) to prevent me from slipping
>> back into my old 123 rythm.
>
>It's so unusual to dance on 3? I've seen Cuban people here in Spain
>dancing always on 3.
>
>Others, casino dancers, do it always on 1.
>
>Any thoughts?
I don't know. Here in Germany nearly everybody is dancing on the 1.
Cubans, Columbians, fans of north american styles ....
Harry
Kevin Moore
1) if you're dancing "on one" or "west coast style" I would count it
"one and two, three and four"
2) if you're dancing on what you guys call "on 2" I think it makes more
sense to count it "and two and, and four and".
If you count it this way you can see why the cubans sometimes call
"dancing on two" "contratiempo" ...in other words, you're dancing
against the beat...you're breaking on the upbeat...that's why it's
harder.
Regardless of how it's written, the basic pulse of salsa is the open
cowbell which falls on 1, 3, 5, and 7 of the numbering system normally
used for dancing (i.e. 1,2,3 5,6,7). In reality these are just the 4
beats of the measure, 1, 2, 3, 4.
Kevin Moore
dancing on one=dancing with the cowbell
dancing on two=dancing with the congas
think about it...the cowbell is the pulse of salsa, hitting on 1, 2, 3,
and 4 and the conga slaps on the upbeats of 1 and 3 and hits open tones
on the upbeats of 2 and 4.
so you could think of the salsa rhythm as
1 bell
+ slap
2 bell
+ open
3 bell
+ slap
4 bell
+ open
So if you break forward or backwards when the cowbell hits you're
dancing "on one" or west coast style, and if you want to dance the other
way, you just break with the slap of the conga and the breaking foot
returns to the starting position with the open tone of the conga, which
also happens to be with the bass in many cases. Even in the Eddie Torres
altered "on two" system, you're still breaking with the slap of the
conga, although you return with bell.
Jacira
long as it has!
Dancing is really all about being able to feel the rhythm and express it
with your body, whether that rhythm is begun on the first or the second or
the third beat of the measure, WHO CARES? The best dancers I've ever seen,
the ones that really mesmerized the audience, were those who danced with
their HEART. They were the ones who electrified the observers with their
enthusiasm, their vertical seduction... as one of my instructors (from
Absolute Salsa Dance Studios) used to say:
"Salsa is a vertical expression of a horizontal desire." (Jack Hartog, Esq.)
Those who dance as if to seduce are the real dancers, not all these hokey LA
style folks with their flips and dips...that isn't really salsa, it is
HOLLYWOOD'S VERSION of salsa, but not the real thing.
Jacira
Kevin Moore <akm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:akmakm-C2B272....@news.earthlink.net...
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
1&2&3&4&) and break on whatever beat they want?
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. http://dmreed.com/Santería-Ifá-Yoruba.htm is a
new page in progress. http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.
"Kevin Moore" <akm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:akmakm-15599A....@news.earthlink.net...
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
what kind of conga tumbao are you refering to? what regular salsa/dance
conga tumbao slaps on the & of any beat?
the basic conga tumbao as I understand it is htsthtoo (newer hand pattern)
or htsthtoo (older hand pattern) or htshtot where h=heel, t=finger tips,
s=slap, and 0=open tone although sometimes you might hear htstheso as a
variation
also the most common bongo bell pattern as far as I know has the open tones
on 1 and 3, i,e., 1 2&3 4& or 1 2&3 4 except for chachacha which might have
an open tone on 1 2 3 4.
Yambu
<dmr...@home.com> wrote:
>
>.....the basic conga tumbao as I understand it is htsthtoo (newer hand pattern)
>or htsthtoo (older hand pattern)......
>
huh?..... or as they say, there's nothing new under the sun?
- Mike Doran
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
slap and open tones. The reason I mentioned the difference between the older
and newer pattern of the basic conga tumbao is that it is considered to be
very important by some of the current congueros. I was not trying to say
that there is no change. Or did I miss the point of your comment?
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. http://dmreed.com/Santería-Ifá-Yoruba.htm is a
new page in progress. http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.
"Yambu" <yam...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3af3c98d...@news.pinol1.sfba.home.com...
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
old=llrrllrr. was that you point?
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. http://dmreed.com/Santería-Ifá-Yoruba.htm is a
new page in progress. http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.
"Dennis M. Reed "Califa"" <dmr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:O0XI6.10268$t27.8...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
Kevin Moore
them in sixteenths and you'll see what I mean...once you do that the
slap becomes the and of 1 and the first open becomes the and of 2, and
so on...and likewise the open tones of the campana becomes 1, 2, 3, 4
Kevin Moore
and listen to the conga...all he plays is slap/open/slap/open...and if
you thing of it as the ands of 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, it's the only
thing that grounds you to 4/4.
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
say, it is a "crazy polyrhythmic break" which indicates to me that it is not
the sort of standard conga tumbao which one might use for the kind of dance
counting we have been discussing.
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. http://dmreed.com/Santería-Ifá-Yoruba.htm is a
new page in progress. http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.
"Kevin Moore" <akm...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:akmakm-D6C14A....@news.earthlink.net...
Yambu
Yeah, now I see. I do it the "old" way, though I've been told it's
"wrong". They ARE slightly different to the ear, and I'm sure many
percussionists use them both.
- Mike Doran
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
BTW Bobby Sanábria said we are in good company using the llrrllrr technique,
i.e., Chano Pozo used llrrllrr!!!
--
Aché
Dennis M. Reed "Califa"
http://dmreed.com, my home page includes my musical autobiography which
contains anecdotes, audio recordings and photos of groups I have worked with
from the late 50s to the present (with 1960s recordings by pianist Carlos
Federico, 1970s photos of Celia Cruz and Pete Escovedo, and recent photos of
some of my wife's now famous PR dinners with Larry Harlow, Yomo Toro,
etc. ), and selected LP and CD recordings from my Latin music collection of
CDs, LPs, tapes, books, and instructional materials.
http://dmreed.com/RumbaRama.htm contains audio links to rumba recordings on
my site and to other links. http://dmreed.com/Santería-Ifá-Yoruba.htm is a
new page in progress. http://dmreed.com/US-Inter_Keyboard.htm contains
information about the US-International Keyboard (WINDOWS 95/98) and a large
printable keyboard image.
"Yambu" <yam...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3af65ceb...@news.pinol1.sfba.home.com...